All that BullShit about the collapse of Civilization

[Gudj]

Just because I don't have a pessimistic view of technology and its impact on our future doesn't mean I'm crazy. I'm so tired of people thinking that advancements in technology are terrible and going to inevitably doom us. Technology is a good thing. It enriches all our lives, and makes things possible that people couldn't have imagined 100 years ago. Good things, like it or not, even if some bad comes with the good. In another 100 years, who knows what will be possible that we can't imagine now?

That veiwpoint usually comes from naivety, not crazieness. Like I said earlier, you and I might define technology differently, so I won't comment on that, but I will say that you either come from a place of incredible privilege and stayed there (which doesn't seem likely if you are a traveling kid), or you haven't really thought/read that much on the subject.

Whatever apparent benefit or luxury we have in the elite parts of the "1st world" due to increases in technology (or anything else really), comes at the expense of everyone else, and that everyone else is the mysterious body that allows us to have 60cent tacos at tacobell and any fruit we want all year around, and affordable gasoline, and hospitals equipped with multi-million dollar pieces of machinery. Gas is worth more than 4 dollars a gallon, and when we get coffee or fruit from other places in the world, the workers are most likely taking a loss. Who would give everything they have to US for an unfair price? No-one unless they were threatened and had no alternative. More relevantly though, the producers of the world can't keep getting everything stolen from them to keep us comfortable, because shit runs out and economic systems fail. You must be aware of the extreme suffering and unrest in poor parts of the world, especially in the global south. If you are fooling yourself into think that that unrest WON'T or CAN'T come here, then maybe you are crazy.

 

[wokofshame]

Just because I don't have a pessimistic view of technology and its impact on our future doesn't mean I'm crazy. I'm so tired of people thinking that advancements in technology are terrible and going to inevitably doom us. Technology is a good thing. It enriches all our lives, and makes things possible that people couldn't have imagined 100 years ago. Good things, like it or not, even if some bad comes with the good. In another 100 years, who knows what will be possible that we can't imagine now?

"I dunno man, i still jerk off manually"

Technology CAN be eco-friendly, I agree. I also think it will become largely so in the next several hundred years, unfortunately probably by necessity.For instance, most of the neccessary minerals we ever will need are sitting in easily accesible landfills currently. Mining the Earth will become a thing of the past once landfill-mining gets big.
There have been catastrophic planet-changing events earlier in earth's history-meteorites hitting, supervolcanoes such as Yellowstone erupting and rendering a large portion of a continent uninhabitable to mammals, I do fear such an event happening from Nuclear War. If we get in a Nuclear War, (and what are those nukes out west there for if not to be used?)
that will be another history-changing catstrophe.

 

[Dameon]

Whatever apparent benefit or luxury we have in the elite parts of the "1st world" due to increases in technology (or anything else really), comes at the expense of everyone else, and that everyone else is the mysterious body that allows us to have 60cent tacos at tacobell and any fruit we want all year around, and affordable gasoline, and hospitals equipped with multi-million dollar pieces of machinery.

I wouldn't call Taco Bell "technology". And advances in technology do not only improve life in first world countries. Genetic modification of crops means that people can grow crops in places they otherwise couldn't, or crops can produce more, which means people who would otherwise starve to death can eat. There are people all over the world who would be starving if not for that technology. The internet helps people all over the world; thanks to projects like the Simputer ( Internet Access for Poor Countries, by Paul "the soaring" Siegel ) with access to the information the internet provides, people can gain information they couldn't have had before. Medical advances help people all over the world; it's actually easier to get affordable medical care in some third-world countries than it is here in the US. You can go to India and use a hospital with the same multi-million dollar equipment as ours for a fraction of the price.

I've done my research...I've thought and read plenty on the subject. I can show countless examples of how advancements in technology aren't just helping the privileged, but also helping people in every corner of the world. I was born poor, raised poor, and have been homeless for 5 years. The wealthy may get the bulk of the benefits, but as technology becomes more ubiquitous it spreads to everybody. Hell, I have a laptop because it was given to me by somebody that didn't need it anymore. I have a cell phone because it's cheap to have a prepaid phone.

What you're talking about isn't even technology, it's economics, although enabled by technology. Technology doesn't create the situations for workers to be exploited in third world countries; greed does. Technology DOES help mitigate the horrible conditions some people live in, and with time, it can give those people the tools to give themselves better living conditions.

 

[Beegod Santana]

I really don't expect any massive collapse of society as a whole in my lifetime. At the same time however I kinda appreciate the anti-civ crowd. Every day each one of us has thousands of opportunities to live closer to our planet, or to further our separation from it. Although I don't agree with the anti-civ crowd on a lot of issues, I think its important that people bring up these issues. Its kinda like religion to me. People can't come up with a logical reason to be good to one another when there's so much to be gained through screwing your fellow person over. So they use religion to tell them that if they aren't nice to each other and the earth god will get angry and punish them. The anti-civ movement is basically saying that if we can't learn to live with each other and the earth, nature's wrath will destroy us and everything we've achieved as a species. Thus a logical reason to be kind to the earth and each other.

I personally don't need god or the threat of civilization's collapse to convince me to be good to the earth and to love my brothers and sisters, but its nice that's someone's offering these suburbanite zombies a way out.

 

[Wasteland]

I will state facts and see where that leads us.

Technological possibilities to collapse civilizations:

Nuclear fire
Biological Warfare

Natural possibilities to collapse civilizations:

Overpopulation
Diminished resources
Massive earthquakes

Political threats to civilization:

Conflicting interest of capitalism and communism
Religious conflicts of the middle east
Greed fueled totalitarian regiments

On a threat analysis scale, there is the justification, ability, lack of fear for consequences by these nations, and alternatives are running out (JACA threat analysis technique).

Based on this information, the collapse of not only civilization, but the world is likely. Suggest immediate resolution.

 

[Missy]

I will state facts and see where that leads us.

Technological possibilities to collapse civilizations:

Nuclear fire
Biological Warfare

Natural possibilities to collapse civilizations:

Overpopulation
Diminished resources
Massive earthquakes

Political threats to civilization:

Conflicting interest of capitalism and communism
Religious conflicts of the middle east
Greed fueled totalitarian regiments

On a threat analysis scale, there is the justification, ability, lack of fear for consequences by these nations, and alternatives are running out (JACA threat analysis technique).

Based on this information, the collapse of not only civilization, but the world is likely. Suggest immediate resolution.

Thanks for stating the facts.

 

[Diagaro]

One of my favorite quotes from fight club: On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.

Second favorite: In the world I see - you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

Don't waste my mental time hoping, I pray for fires and quakes, screams of fear the smell of burning flesh. Gunshots ringing out like perverted 4th of july fireworks with no pretty light bloom echoing through the streets of every major city that still stands - If I close my eyes in a dark mood day I can almost see it!
IF it happens, I'll just do the same thing I have been doing and a little more, impunitively though.
And while all you morons are breaking shop windows and grabbing computers and pot from the dispensaries I'll be down at the harbor picking out the most grand and fast sailing ship I can find to hell with willing crew I'll take the first 4 people I see at the harbor at gunpoint and make them sail my prize away anybody that approaches me had better shoot to kill or bow down in total submission War Loard Diagaro Enthio ruthless pirate captain
/fantasy

 

[plagueship]

the fear (or reality) of emerging instability or catastrophe presents unlimited possible justifications for authoritarian systems. a world that continues to legitimize itself primarily through the indefinite management of its own collapse. crisis management has become the new paradigm of governance.

 

[Dameon]

Here's some other facts:
Overpopulation forces advancement of technology to support the world's growing population. Medical technology, genetic modification of food, housing, even advancements in space technology are pushed forward by overpopulation. Overpopulation can be controlled, as well; China is evidence of that.

Diminishing resources also push technology forward. We already have a variety of renewable alternatives to fossil fuels, and renewable sources of energy.

Nuclear weapons are becoming less of a threat, not more. The odds of full-on nuclear war in the future are decreasing, not increasing, as nuclear weapons are decommissioned and the large countries which have the nuclear weapons (and aren't going to use them because of mutual assured destruction) keep other countries from developing nuclear weapons (a difficult task even without opposition). Besides, without nuclear weapons, we wouldn't have nuclear energy, which like it or not, is a great source of energy with far less environment impact than coal.

There aren't any large, true communist countries to pose any threat. China may call themselves communist, but they're buying and selling things like any other country. The cold war is over; communism and capitalism aren't at odds anymore...they've realized that they both like to make money.

Ideological differences are less dangerous these days than in the past; holy wars don't happen in large, developed countries. The threat of religious differences is decreasing, not increasing, as communication technology promotes increased understanding.

You're just looking at the negative side of everything...You're not really analyzing anything, just seeing what you want to see. There aren't only downsides to any of the things you've brought up, and problems bring solutions. Adversity pushes technology forward, and people tend to be pretty determined to overcome obstacles.

 

[littlejasonsandiego]

i dont see anything big happenning in the usa anytime soon. probably in my lifetime. although ill still sit, wait, and hope..

 

[outskirts]

Tonight I have two rabbits slow cooking in the crock pot. I have this rule, if it eats my garden patch... I will eat it.
If civilization were to collapse tomorrow, sure, I would probably be using a different method to shoot and cook the
rabbits, but rules such as this one would still stand, if not have even more importance.

 

[Beegod Santana]

the fear (or reality) of emerging instability or catastrophe presents unlimited possible justifications for authoritarian systems. a world that continues to legitimize itself primarily through the indefinite management of its own collapse. crisis management has become the new paradigm of governance.

What that guy said.

 

[wokofshame]

Whistler, I'm not sure your latter paragraphs are facts.
The nukes we have decomissioned are older, less powerful ones. The nukes we're keepinng are in some cases 100x more powerful than the ones we're dismantling. It sounds great on paper "1000's of nukes dismantled" until you realize that they were built in the 1950's and are technologically obsolete.
China just launched their 1st super-ship aircraft carrier. You don't build aircraft carriers unless you want to invade other nations.
Yeah, they like making money. There have been plenty of wars between nations that like making money. England and Germany for one.

 

[Nelco]

i believe it because i can't ignore whats happening to people around me

 

[Earth]

Religion is the only thing keeping the poor from slaughtering the rich.

Sooner or later folks are going to realize that here it's just one government with parties a, b, and c.... yet there's no difference - the same policies still get pushed through no matter who's at the helm.

Are we doomed??

I don't know - but I ain't sweating it because there ain't nothing I can do about it anyway EXCEPT set myself up to be able to survive or at least somehow exist without depending on other's.
If I do it right, I'll be completely self sufficiant within 11 years, maybe 8 if I push it a little...

Social Security was supposed to end back in 1983 or so (yes, I'm older and remember this kind of stuff) and here we are almost 30 years later hearing the same shit over and over again.

But is anyone going to do something to ensure the people are protected who's in office today??
Doubt it very much, yet the system here as shitty as it seems still somehow seems to work....

I'm from W. Germany.
I got to spend some time in E.Berlin as recently as 1981...

My folks on my mothers side lost everything during WWII to the Russians.
They only survived due to a barttering system, as they had a farm - and people would trade items for food / corn liquior etc... since money meant nothing once their system collapsed.

I see things a little differently because I'm from a different generation, but this does not mean I don't agree with many of the previous posts here - because I do, and very much so in most cases...
I was also going somewhere with this, but the Manaschewitz is really kicking in now so you'll have to forgive me for losing track of thought and composure here....

"If the kids are united, they will never be divided"

 

[Earth]

(actually I meant potato vodka, not corn liquior - although it's possible they were making that too)

 

[Nagrom]

all governments collapse BUT I don't really think that effects each of us as individuals as much as people like to think. Normal everyday folks still live in Rome...

agreed and yeah we had the great depresion in the 20s but does no one rember we just got out of/kinda still are in a resesion? as a whole i think we'll be good for a while and as individules we slowly destroy ourself a little everyday. and im sure none of will we around to partake in the fun when the us falls so im not to worried about it.

 

[Linda/Ziggy]

Civilization collapse ??

Bring it on.

Human being are parasites, we devour we destroy and we put our species above
all others in nature & nature it's self.

Unless as a species, as a whole we change and start healing instead
of destroying I will keep longing for human species collapse.

Do I romanticize pre industrial or tribal cultures - NO WAY.
Things were smaller scale and there were alot less of us, (yeaaay!)
but there were (and still are) some fucked up oppressive 'cultural practices'
and destruction of species, flora & fauna by tribal peoples.
The industrial revolution just did it on a larger scale.

Basically I try to live as healing & positive a life as I can and try to make a
positive impact on the world around me on a daily basis.
It's all we can do.

I like the idea of a non discriminating world wide natural virus.
Birth control isn't working.

 

[venusinpisces]

People who advocate the collapse of civilization as a solution to environmental problems are overlooking one crucial point: nuclear meltdown. Without electricity to cool spent fuel rods from nuclear plants, enormous amounts of radioactive material would be released into the environment. Nuclear power plants rely on sophisticated equipment to prevent this situation from occurring. Without that equipment, the surrounding ecosystem would be devastated by the effects of radioactive waste. Like it or not, the earth is now dependent upon humanity as a caretaker. This situation is problematic in many ways, particularly in terms of our agricultural systems which are decimating complex ecologies. Some here have mentioned genetic engineering as a potential solution without bringing up the fact that massive GMO crop failure has led to famine and farmer suicides in India, as well as the studies that have proven how GMO foods cause organ damage. The best solution that I can see is through permaculture, a system of designing sustainable communities with less of an emphasis on technology and consumption. As for people who romanticize industrial collapse, it's only because you haven't lived through it. All it would take would be 72 hours without plumbing or electricity for the US to look like Haiti. Murder, rape, starvation and disease would be the rule of the day, not whatever Mad Max movie you've been watching. It's nice to fantasize about some type of road warrior adventure but reality would be a lot uglier. Personally, I would rather focus on solutions that don't involve the avoidable deaths of huge numbers of people.

 

[RnJ]

Historically, all empires have fallen. Except for China, which though it no longer runs like a traditional imperialist empire, exists and is alive and well economically (perhaps the start of new colonialism). But empire fall in some way. Not overnight, but they do. I think the idea of collapse is so seriously considered because of globalism. It is no longer a population in a specific area that will fall do to the depletion of local resources. We will continue to use up all resources globally, until nothing but human and the minimal amount of food that keeps 100% of alive exist. No additional space. And then the poop storm would begin. Unless we reach another planet.

Like a lot of other people, I don't want to leave this planet. Even if progress can continue, and is ecologically sustainable (hello cornucopianism?), I find it spiritually unsustainable. This is my own reflection, but man completely dominating nature is a cold and lonely existence. It is one of stress and worry and constant need for 5-star "escapes" from a world of increasing workloads and the inevitable return to reality.

I'm not sure about collapse. I don't like how the proclamation of coming collapse allows people to basically sit back and watch it happen. On the other hand, I don't trust our population to adapt to the realities, even if they are a slow process. I think a lot of people don't care because they have effectively decided simply NOT to believe there is anything wrong. And the more people speak of climate change and stuff like that, the more they react negatively: "nah, it's just a ploy used to give people political sway by bringing up environmental issues!" "Nah, we'll just move to another planet."

I don't know if there will be a grand, final, all-time brutal collapse. But I want to be moderately prepared, and I don't want to see the world go down in flames. There's no need to be turn-or-burn preachin' collapse...specially not if you're a collapsist sitting on a launchair, staring at the sky and waiting for it to come.

If you open yourself to being adaptive and an attitude of learning survival skills as needed, I think you're far ahead of 95% of our population. The bonus is you're being both an activist, and doing yourself some good by increasing your chances of survival. But give up any semblance of rescuing the behemoth of a problem all 7 billion of us are perpetuating. I hate to get all self-interested, but I think that teaching yourself about survival does both you and the world some good.