All that BullShit about the collapse of Civilization

[Tao_of_Pi]

The collapse of Civilization, lol wut? True, in the past certain civilizations have collapsed in the wake of extraneous internal and external conflicts, but it has NEVER caused the apocalyptic fallout so many believe it would. Rome may have fallen, but it didn't throw Europe into a constant state of anarchy. The control of the territories simply fell into the hands of the local governments and life went on as usual for 99% of the population. And don't forget there were a number of other civilizations that existed concurrently with the fall of Rome yet remained untouched by it's demise.

It's mildly amusing to listen to some people talk about this type of subject matter when more often than not they have only the most basic understanding of macro-economics. And the information they do get is usually from a pamphlet written by a guy who supposedly read a bunch of books on the subject and somehow figured out capitalism is a giant conspiracy orchestrated by the Freemasons. These fringe idiots can mouth off all they want and claim some of the most retarded bullshit I've ever heard without backing any of their claims with hard peer-validated science. And it's sad because these guys take advantage of the fact that some people maintain a healthy skepticism of their government by glossing over things that should be scrutinized and investigated in favor of pimping crazy conspiracy theories that'll sell books and further their personal agendas. The govt does lie to you, but 95% they're not, and you need to be vigilant about that 5% instead of reading insane bullshit on the internet. I was watching Penn & Teller last night where they were discussing vaccines, and they were talking about the doctor who first published the study that suggested vaccines caused autism. For years this Andrew Wakefield was viewed as a hero and crusader against the governments and pharmaceutical companies, only to find out rather recently that a group of lawyers paid Wakefield off to doctor his study, so the lawyers could sue the shit out of the pharmaceutical companies responsible for producing the vaccines. The moral of the story is, don't trust ANYBODY, everyone's got an agenda they're trying to push.

As far as Wildboy's comment about more eco-friendly living, I'm not sure. Currently the US is actually experiencing a period of rural flight. Unfortunately this is only happening in agricultural communities, most of the rural areas located around large amounts of wilderness are actually gaining populations. It's kind of unfortunate because a lot of these people are who you'd consider "yuppies" just looking to surround themselves with wildlife and to pretend they're living "green". This not only causes excessive development on land that was once unoccupied but it drives up property values making it extremely expensive for certain groups to live there. And although I highly doubt everyone is going to start living eco-friendly, I think some groups/communities will adopt it in some capacity or another.

 

[nivoldoog]

I just hope and pray it collapses, the ride down should be hella interesting.

 

[Failure Artist]

Just don't have any illusions that you'll certainly be one of the people that survive the chaos of the collapse.

 

[joaquim33]

if capitalism can survive through two world wars, the carpet bombing and destruction of major european cities, death of 100s of millions of workers/soldiers/civilians, and come out stronger and more on top then ever before, in fact actually profit from these events, why do people think something like peak oil or climate chaos is going to stop it? folks should read naomi klein's "the shock doctrine."

 

[Dial]

Sadly capitalism probably isn't going anywhere soon. But it never hurts to try to destroy it.

 

[notconnerR]

I dont see what the problem is with capitalism.

 

[Pheonix]

I dont see what the problem is with capitalism.

I don't think most of the anti-capitalist people would know how to survive without the excessive waste of capitalism

 

[notconnerR]

Very intriguing point: the waste byproduct of the capitalist machine is actually fueling the anti-capitalists.

Biting the hand that feeds you?

 

[Mouse]

all governments collapse BUT I don't really think that effects each of us as individuals as much as people like to think. Normal everyday folks still live in Rome...

 

[wokofshame]

OK i just wanted to say i feel a bit differently than i did when i started this thread and more like say compass....i dunno if it will be soon and my guess is not in my lifetime but the more i see the more i think within say 1000 years we'll go PING! just hopefully those bastards dont nuclear holocaust us.....that will fuck up everything, i'm not too sure i want to be gathering nuts and berries if i'm glowing in the dark

 

[plagueship]

interesting thread.

personally i think a lot of people who self-assign/accept the role of social antagonists are not likely, for better or worse, to really understand how that system functions. i actually tend to think marx's prediction is coming true as far as the increasing rationalization tendency of capitalism causing it to evolve into socialism. a more eco-friendly, more gay-positive, less-racist and less-sexist version of capitalism with more welfare, is probably the solution to this crisis. the reason is less because it is 'better' and more to do with the way that information and communication technologies have transformed society over the past few decades (that is, 'the development of the productive forces').

look at the 'arab spring': capitalism has the tendency to produce more misery and economic disaster than it is currently capable of recovering from (or, more like from the social unrest provoked thereby). gay marriage, legal weed, relaxed immigration policy, all these things are in the near future in the u.s., the tea party (and etc) are dinosaurs but they are not wrong to observe that we are heading towards a kind of socialism. and guess what? our lives will continue to be ruled by abstract economic logic. it will be less horrible, but somehow more horrible because more stable.

sorry this is a little rushed and i can unpack my reasoning a bit more for anyone who is interested. in the meantime i would highly recommend as a reference the essays from the journal TIQQUN, 'the cybernetic hypothesis' and ''theory of the young girl'. i am not a huge fan of 'the coming insurrection' or anything like that but i do think they have some insightful ideas about our current society.

 

[plagueship]

i also wanted to point out that the idea that some kind of major world transformation is inevitable and imminent has been a major theme in radical politics for at least a thousand years, from the "millenarian" medieval christian heretics to certain anarchist and student protests of recent years, which involved a lot of people who seem to believe, or said they believed, that the current recession was the beginning of the end of capitalism (which would inevitably be followed by anarcho-communism, right?). i think this perspective is generally part naive idealism and youthful arrogance, and sometimes just a straight-up rhetorical ploy. either way it's at best ignorant and at worst utterly manipulative, and even if people really believe what they are saying, maybe especially if they believe it, then anyone or anything can be used and sacrificed for the supreme importance of the coming revolution/collapse/etc. (this is what i don't like about TCI, right down to the title!)

if capitalism can survive through two world wars, the carpet bombing and destruction of major european cities, death of 100s of millions of workers/soldiers/civilians, and come out stronger and more on top then ever before, in fact actually profit from these events, why do people think something like peak oil or climate chaos is going to stop it? folks should read naomi klein's "the shock doctrine."

i haven't read the shock doctrine but it sounds cool and this is a good comment.

abstracted i'm sorry but i think the only thing you are firmly planted in is wishful thinking.

 

[L.C.]

rome, egypt,atlantis. all great civilizations crumble sooner or later. history repeats itself. don't blieve it pick up a book. not when, but how is my question.

 

[plagueship]

rome, egypt,atlantis. all great civilizations crumble sooner or later. history repeats itself. don't blieve it pick up a book. not when, but how is my question.

fair enough (except that modern civilization is directly descended from rome etc), but for every year in which there is a major collapse of some sort, there are 500 or 1000 where it doesn't (but everyone still talks about/hopes for/fears it)


i do think it's really interesting what a preoccupation it is and i wonder if it's more or less now than 100 or 800 years ago or whatever. people live in submission to social order because it is supposed to protect them from disaster and chaos, but then what do they do after work? they watch movies about cities being destroyed, they go to church and hear the preacher talk about revelations... there is a great attraction to imagining the end of all this, as though it's the only thing that keeps us putting up with 'all this'.

 

[Gudj]

Having a commonly agreed upon definition of words like Civilization, Collapse, Culture, ect. would really make these threads / discussions more interesting and engaging.

 

[Dameon]

Having a commonly agreed upon definition of words like Civilization, Collapse, Culture, ect. would really make these threads / discussions more interesting and engaging.

That's what dictionaries are for.

Civilization as a whole isn't going to collapse. I don't even think that the US is going to collapse anytime soon. We're still one of the wealthiest and most powerful nations in the world, regardless of how badly our economy's going to us. We're still better off than most of the world. Our economy's currently on the upswing, not the downswing. Yes, we're dependent on oil, but we already have alternatives if we run out of oil.

I think that people who are on the lowest level of society (economically) like to envision the collapse of our civilization because they feel like they'd be somehow more equipped to survive than other people. Maybe we are...but I think that we probably aren't.

Personally, I think that with the development of technology speeding up all the time, and the benefits that technology can eventually bring to everybody, we're more likely to come into a golden age within our lifetimes than we are to see the end of the world.

As for the environment, we're becoming more and more aware of our impact on it, and how we can fix the damage we're doing. Most people these days are starting to accept climate change as a fact, where even 10 years ago you'd have had a hard time convincing many people it exists. With the advancements in technology and our understanding of the environment, we probably will be able to fix or at least handle any problems we have. Especially in a first world country, we shouldn't have anything to really worry about.

I can't wait until 2012 has come and gone, so I can point and laugh at all the people who've been predicting disasters and major changes and what-not. Unfortunately, then people will just pick another year to be the end of the world, because people as a whole are obsessed with the end of the world being just around the corner. All throughout recorded history, people have been predicting the end of the world, and probably as soon as language was invented I'm sure there was somebody who figured out how to say "the end is nigh!"

 

[derailed]

With the advancements in technology and our understanding of the environment, we probably will be able to fix or at least handle any problems we have. Especially in a first world country, we shouldn't have anything to really worry about.

I've got to admit, I'm rubbing my eyes and staring slack jawed at my computer screen trying to figure out if you really just wrote that.

 

[SkyeDawg]

Yeah, I hear lots of people, particularly from the FAR LEFT and the FAR RIGHT predicting if not wishing for armageddon or some shit. First it was y2k now it's 2012... whatever.

What's sick about that is that when you wish for system collapse you're wishing for the deaths of billions of innocent men, women, and children.

Bend the track, bend the track. Don't break it.

 

[Gudj]

when you wish for system collapse you're wishing for the deaths of billions of innocent men, women, and children.

That can be true, and doesn't usually bother people who are anti-civ. Including myself.

 

[Dameon]

I've got to admit, I'm rubbing my eyes and staring slack jawed at my computer screen trying to figure out if you really just wrote that.

Just because I don't have a pessimistic view of technology and its impact on our future doesn't mean I'm crazy. I'm so tired of people thinking that advancements in technology are terrible and going to inevitably doom us. Technology is a good thing. It enriches all our lives, and makes things possible that people couldn't have imagined 100 years ago. Good things, like it or not, even if some bad comes with the good. In another 100 years, who knows what will be possible that we can't imagine now?