All that BullShit about the collapse of Civilization | Squat the Planet

All that BullShit about the collapse of Civilization

wokofshame

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So I'm posting this because many of my friends, I'd say a good third or more in the circles I run in, are always referencing the impending collapse of the system, meaning money markets, economy, electricity, everything powered by elxctricity, phones, computers, mass transit, etc

Well people have been predicting the end of the world since time began... it is sort of the trademark of wingnut philosophies and Jonestown-style cults.
Also i have observed that people with no $ in the bank , other than me, tend to predict the collapse thing way more often than people with $ in the bank, i.e. something at stake in the present system. Those with nothing to lose wnat to see something new so they predict it.

I really don't see breakdown coming. The police and Army and nat'l guard and shitheads are just as powerful as ever and the biggest economic shitstorm in memory, the great depression, still didnt really change the course the world was heading on.

Interested to hear some responses as I know there's a lot of people on here who believe in the coming breakdown. Specifically, what makes you think now is such a likely time for a collapse to be coming?
 

compass

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Well, wanting the collapse of industrial civilization and thinking it's imminent are two different things. I think we have other threads here for the discussion of whether civilization is "good" or "bad" so I'll try to keep it simple and on topic here. In the big picture, you can't argue that civilization won't inevitably collapse, it's entirely dependent on finite resources, while population continues to increase exponentially, fed by industrial agriculture which essentially turns oil into food, yet oil production begins to decline, it will eventually reach a breaking point.

I think alot of the hype about a collapse in the near future is based more on wishful thinking, people had y2k, some now have 2012, etc. I can think of possible scenarios that could have a sudden and unexpected impact, but it wont fall overnight.

Civilization is a huge mess that has so many complex underlying pressures and conflicts boiling, it's hard to say what the future holds, but no matter what, I think it's going to be ugly.

I think having so much confidence in the unshakeable strength and endurance of the current system is as foolish as "knowing" that the collapse is right around the corner. All you can do is try to live your life by your values, and take it day by day.
 

ridegnu

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A collapse of our empire is eniment, it is impossible to say when. I feel our current decline on oil will be our next biggest hit, and I have seen interesting mathematical functions on this happening in 2012. But none the less, we are simply the ruling empire, and every empire has a beginning and an end.
 

Gudj

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I agree with the other replies.
The collapse of civilization isn't "bullshit", its an inevitability.
It also is alot different than the end of the world.

Your point about people with more money usually being less likely to predict or be in favor of drastic change seems true to me as well.
Not only is it wishful thinking on their part that things will always be like this (and wishful thinking on our part that it's going to change right now), but it also probably has to do with the perspective of a rich person is probably blind to all the people who are currently living the collapse.
...I understand that that was a huge generalization.

If you want to argue against the anti-civ minded people, there are threads for that already.
 
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Beegod Santana

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I've been hearing about peak oil and the oil into food dillema since the late 90's. As far as I can tell its normally a way for some asshole to milk a bunch of parinoid cattle. I noticed that after michale rupurt (sp?) was exposed for the total fraud that he is the peak oil movement lost it's steam for a few years, but now seems to be back once again. Ya, there's a lot of probelms with the current system, that doesn't mean however that you're getting a real eduction in economics and energy production while sitting in front of your computer looking for signs of a collapse. I find it interesting how so many people who cry about an iminent collapse also seem to advocate for actions to quicken said collapse. If its iminent, why put so much effort in to making it happen?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I sadly think that this current civilization has a lotta life left in it.
 

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I think a major fault of many "collapsists" is that they, whether knowingly or not, analyze this situation in a similar way one would a revolution. The collapse of civilization is not a one time big cataclysmic event, but a process. It could easily be argued that it's already occurring, or has been occurring. Another fault on many people's part is thinking the natural fluctuation of market economies has anything to do with the fall of civilization.

Also, there aren't "civilizations", there is civilization and it has been one force encompassing thousands of cultures, beliefs, systems. They all had the common theme of densely populated urban living dependent on intensive agriculture.

I'd rather have the original poster tell me how a system of infinite need with finite resources will survive, as mentioned by compass.
 
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Monkeywrench

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To answer this question, I think we need to examine what exactly our definition of "Civilization" is..?

Cities? The ability to produce currency? Art? Architecture? Infrastructure? Class systems? Agriculture? It's hard to imagine any of these factors completely disappearing all together as the result of one crisis or another.

Something tells me even the self-righteous, tree-bark eating, dreadie mud-hut village of Earth Firsters would be guilty of displaying traits of the civilization they so villainize. No matter what they decide to rename it all. Human progress, and the need to advance/better understand/control our surroundings (via technology) really has no where to go but forward. It's how it's been since day one, it's how it will always be.

Despite how magically hippie awesome primitive societies look, we're going to pick antibiotics, nanotechnology and air conditioning over positive vibes and waiting for nature to provide.

Also: 2012 is bullshit. Stop being afraid of ancient man's esoteric understanding of a complex Universe they simply lacked the tools to fully understand. Just because a calendar ends doesn't mean MAGIC is going to suddenly swoop in and replace common sense.
 

compass

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To answer this question, I think we need to examine what exactly our definition of "Civilization" is..?

Cities? The ability to produce currency? Art? Architecture? Infrastructure? Class systems? Agriculture? It's hard to imagine any of these factors completely disappearing all together as the result of one crisis or another.

Civilization, as has been stated, is generally the rise of dense centralized populations (urbanization, cities) dependent upon intensive agriculture. All those things you mentioned are culture, and have existed in some form or another since probably the dawn of man, but the extreme complexity and variation of modern culture can only be developed by a population which does not have to play a direct role in securing the means of their nourishment and survival, ie, division of labor, specialization, etc.

Something tells me even the self-righteous, tree-bark eating, dreadie mud-hut village of Earth Firsters would be guilty of displaying traits of the civilization they so villainize. No matter what they decide to rename it all. Human progress, and the need to advance/better understand/control our surroundings (via technology) really has no where to go but forward. It's how it's been since day one, it's how it will always be.

Despite how magically hippie awesome primitive societies look, we're going to pick antibiotics, nanotechnology and air conditioning over positive vibes and waiting for nature to provide.

As human animals, our main means of survival is the use of our intellect to manipulate resources from our environment to fulfill our needs. The main underlying problem is whether we recognize ourselves as an integral part of a localized ecosytstem, and whose influence now reaches out into the entire biosphere, and live life aware and in balance with that, or that we are exceptional beings, exempt from the laws of nature, here to dominate and control our environments, and technology may have gotten us in this mess, but if we keep trying, it will also solve all the problems. (I know, it's an oversimplified false dichotomy heavily influenced by personal bias, but you get my point).

We've been agrarian for about 10,000 years, only a couple hundred industrial, and only a few decades highly technological. It's absurd to think that our modern way of life is the single, inevitable, natural result of the progression of collective human thought since the first monkey used a stone to break open a nut. I don't think our species existed on this planet for millions of years sitting around with their thumbs up their asses "waiting for nature to provide." We did just fine before all this.

Alot of people have romanticized notions of hunter/gatherer societies, but it's a difficult life, and many societies did strip resources and had to move on because they made their environment uninhabitable. Unfortunately, our modern system of industiral agriculture is toxifying the total environment, destroying top soil and is thus entirely dependent upon petroleum based fertilizers, pesticides, fungicides, etc., mechanized production and transportation, etc. all dependent on a finite resource. (and no, I'm not into the peak oil "movement" nor a paranoid sheep. even many anti-peak oil folks concede that oil is a finite resource that will eventually peak). I wont even start on consumer products.

So this is what you consider "forward", "progress"? Does the pursuit of novelties and artificial comforts, and of "high" technology justify the consequences? Modern medicine mostly treats problems that are caused by industrial civilization, cancer rates keep going up, all kinds of crazy diseases are popping up, people are obese, everyone and their mother is on anti-depressants, etc. Of course people are going to "pick" these things, but we also live in a culture where advertising agencies have psychologists on staff to exploit the developmental vulnerabilities of children, where people's identity and self worth are defined by their consumer behavior. Can we really trust their "choices"?

Also: 2012 is bullshit. Stop being afraid of ancient man's esoteric understanding of a complex Universe they simply lacked the tools to fully understand. Just because a calendar ends doesn't mean MAGIC is going to suddenly swoop in and replace common sense.

Can't disagree with you there.

I think we've strayed off the original intent of this thread, if you want to continue we should move this to one of the other threads about civilization.

As a counter to the original topic, what do people think of "transitional" people, "cultural creatives" etc.? There are alot of people out there doing alot of good things, movements for supporting local agriculture (CSAs, etc.), sustainable agriculture, DIY culture, people moving towards more localized and sustainable economies and ways of living. Do you think it's possible for civilization not to collapse at all, but to have people shift towards a better way of living, and possibly preserving the "good" technologies, and discarding the "bad"? Bringing back some of the old time way of living, like our grand parents and great grand parents, but with modern twists? I'm just curious about what people think about it, I've been meeting some really optimistic people lately who are doing things like this, and they think they can save the world.
 

compass

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Widerstand said:
Cry me a river....

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Te callas o te callo Wider
 
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Pheonix

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the idea of civilization falling is not taking into account that civilization can change. it is just a matter of time before we run out of oil, but when that happens civilization will not fall instead they will simply find an alternative fuel source. the change might not be any better cause the HAVEs will influence the change in order to make sure that they still control everything and the HAVE NOTs will still not have nothing.
just one quick thing about 2012, the maya indians never believed that the world was going to end their calender is based on sun cycles and they correctly predicted when the current sun cycle will come to an end. that could cause some environmental changes but nothing catastrophic.

it is in our evolutionary nature to change
 

cranberrydavid

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I could show you some old farts in England who don't know the British Empire has collapsed. I could also introduce you to old farts in the USofA who'll tell you the country went to hell in the 60's and 70's and has never recovered.

Sometimes collapse looks less like a hand grenade and more like a tire with a slow leak............
 

simpletoremember

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I'd have to agree all great empires fall.

But, I have had tons of friends ranting about this for years. Such as there is no gold backing the economy, but only oil and how the Amerikan government is so far in debt to the central banks, and even other countries (such as china). So it's bound to happen, when? Who fuckin' knows.

I also have this friend that has been ranting about how that we as people don't even know exactly what year it is, and that we are all being lied to. He also listens to a lot of Alex Jones, and is sort of on the wingnut side of things. But some of the shit he says makes since sometimes? How are we to know what Time or even Year it is? because somebody told us?
 

Gudj

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I'd have to agree all great empires fall.

But, I have had tons of friends ranting about this for years. Such as there is no gold backing the economy, but only oil and how the Amerikan government is so far in debt to the central banks, and even other countries (such as china). So it's bound to happen, when? Who fuckin' knows.

I also have this friend that has been ranting about how that we as people don't even know exactly what year it is, and that we are all being lied to. He also listens to a lot of Alex Jones, and is sort of on the wingnut side of things. But some of the shit he says makes since sometimes? How are we to know what Time or even Year it is? because somebody told us?

Ok, it's really important to distinguish between Alex Jones and career conspiracy theorists, as well as concerns about how the United States is going to collapse from "The collapse of civilization". Like, really important.

The financial collapse of the U.S.A. (and all the people conspiracy theorists want to scapegoat for it) can be argued about, changed, saved, revolutionized, whatever. The collapse of civilization is on a whole other level, which totally disregards the seeming importance of Alex Jones, the U.S.A., or any single crisis. The collapse of civilization is well underway, the argument is about when it will be complete.
 

Teko

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It's simple. Money will reach it's zenith and then become worthless, stocks will crash, so will the big ceo's. It's all dominos after that for lack of words. It is not that hard to foresee. Just look at history and the patterns concerning money and greed. Rise and fall? it all has happened over and over again. Before it's all over tribalism will reign dominant as the majority lifestyle, just you wait.
 
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wildboy860

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As a counter to the original topic, what do people think of "transitional" people, "cultural creatives" etc.? There are alot of people out there doing alot of good things, movements for supporting local agriculture (CSAs, etc.), sustainable agriculture, DIY culture, people moving towards more localized and sustainable economies and ways of living. Do you think it's possible for civilization not to collapse at all, but to have people shift towards a better way of living, and possibly preserving the "good" technologies, and discarding the "bad"? Bringing back some of the old time way of living, like our grand parents and great grand parents, but with modern twists? I'm just curious about what people think about it, I've been meeting some really optimistic people lately who are doing things like this, and they think they can save the world.[/] very well said. I can't agree more.
 

wildboy860

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It's simple. Money will reach it's zenith and then become worthless, stocks will crash, so will the big ceo's. It's all dominos after that for lack of words. It is not that hard to foresee. Just look at history and the patterns concerning money and greed. Rise and fall? it all has happened over and over again. Before it's all over tribalism will reign dominant as the majority lifestyle, just you wait.

I really really like this statement too. I can't agree more.
 

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