Illegal immigration

[sharks77]

I think it's ironic that Americans are so upset about illegal immigration when this land is founded on illegal immigration. I guess we do have good reason to be paranoid, considering that when our ancestors illegally immigrated here, they killed off a good portion of the residents and took the country from them.

i hate that argument and don't think it's very fair as i wasn't the one that came across the pond and kicked the natives off their land 400 years ago... the whole white guilt thing is stupid, i wasn't the one that did it, i don't really see how it's fair that i should be the one having to feel personally guilty about it. obviously though, it pisses me off that it happened.

in any case, the whole illegal immigration thing is bullshit, i don't understand how people can honestly deport other people for trying to earn money for their families. it's next to impossible to immigrate legally and making legal immigration easier will give us the same problems with immigrants "taking our jobs," and as it stands, getting a temporary work visa costs thousands and thousands of dollars every year, and you really have to know the right people to even get one. but in my mind its like affirmative action, if they're going to be better workers than you then damn straight they should get the job over you, although i have never competed with an immigrant for a job, so maybe my view is biased. i realize that many times illegals are exploited for cheap labor simply because they can and it keeps costs low by not paying them a living wage and i am opposed to this as well but can't really do much about it, as those in charge of business will do whatever they can to make money as long as we live in a capitalist society... which we will.

i live in texas and know a lot of immigrants, they aren't bad people like everyone makes them out to be, some people like to give the example of them getting welfare checks and getting free emergency healthcare and education while not paying any taxes, well most of them would pay taxes if they were allowed to, and white people do that just as much as immigrants do. i am personally against the idea of borders but i realize that there as long as society will exist (and it will exist forever because that is human nature) there will always be an underclass and that is all there is to it.

sorry this is so lengthy. but this whole issue makes me so mad that some people think they are better than others simply because they had the privilege of being born in one location versus another.

 

[veggieguy12]

I would initially say that [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Internationale]the Internationale[/ame] signalling the class war's triumph is a long way from being played out of the White House.
But this economy has Democrats and Republicans talking about nationalizing some of the more spectacular failures amongst the bankrupted banks. That's fucking amazing!
With the right push by unions and parties (let's imagine that the various splinters of socialism and communism can actually work together for, oh, 5 minutes) and a concentration on education/propaganda, I think it's quite possible that socialist measures could be instituted, or card-carrying Socialists elected. That could potentially be the tip of the iceberg, the first domino to fall...
Once they had the limelight or any kind of public attention, and the funding of political office, couldn't they be expected to expand their public support and thus their power in government?
Not that I'm a socialist or nuthin', just that it's not SO far-fetched, in this light. Or is it?

 

[IBRRHOBO]

sharks77: WOW! Haven't read a post like that from ya! Good job. Length is moot! It was well thought out and right or wrong in anyone's eyes, a pat on the back there.

veggieguy: Yeah, I watch Bloomburg a lot due to my vocation. I caught the nationalization theme on the banks! I agree w/you that there are good parts of a shitload of political theories. Mexico nationalized in the 70's. Classic, textbook case. Their problem was the rampent corruption, thus it failed. But, yeah, you have some good shit there. We should talk sometime! PM me for my cell# if you get bored and we'll chat!

 

[maus]

class war is all around us. the war against migrants is a good example. as many people have pointed out the global south has been pillaged by the capitalist classes of the west (and more recently of the south itself) since 1492 or thereabouts. since 1994, when nafta went into effect and the movement of money lost all barriers, a lot more barriers went up for human beings from the south side of the border. "operation gatekeeper", in other words, militarization, meant that people could no longer simply hop fences in towns - now they have to go deep into treacherous, arid mountain and desert terrain and walk 50 miles or more. getting lost, getting a blister, twisting your ankle, things that in your or my life would usually just be a nuisance, can and often do mean death in that situation. death by dehydration is extremely drawn out and painful. and people are doing this so they can beg for a days work in front home depot or whatever, and feed their family in a country where the land has been taken from the people. this is absolutely a fucking class war!

and no, smartass, i was born in the u.s. to u.s. citizen parents, so i havent crossed the border illegally but ive encountered people who did. this one dude hurt his knee and the group left them and he told his 18yo son to leave him to die in the desert. the son decided to stay with his dad. luckily they ran into a friendly household. i wish people would think about the insanely intense hardships that people experience to enter this country because of its fucked up capitalist laws instead of pissing and moaning about "lazy illegals". what the fuck? why dont you cross 50 miles of desert with pigs in helicopters hunting you on your way to apply for a job? oh yeah, its because of these things called nation states which enforce the will of the rich and you happen to be born on the right side of a fucking line on a map which was created by slavery and genocide to begin with.

 

[veggieguy12]

Hmm, I gotta say that while I still don't see much difference between legal or illegal immigrants - and I don't much regard borders drawn up by people who live outside of the affected areas (Mexico City and Washington DC and Ottawa deciding borders for TX, MT, MN, MI, WA, CA, AZ, etc.) - I do think there's something to be said for cultural boundaries.

In the same way that it is largely White Americans reacting against the Hispanic (largely Mexican?) influence in CA, NM, and AZ, Mexicans would not be happy about a massive, if slow, influx of Africans or Chinese that gradually changed their communities.
I'm not sure this is something inherent in us as a species, or if it's cultural/learned, but I think it's somewhat valid, to be resistant to and defensive against "outsiders".

 

[connerR]

I can sympathize with illegal immigrants; I'd want to get out of Mexico, too. But I can't really support open borders.

I look at a nation as a house. If you don't want people coming into your house, close the door and don't let them in.

I'd like to see Mexicans work to make their own nation better, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

 

[veggieguy12]

Uh, okay, but those "doors" on the "house" are pretty arbitrary.
Why not extended "door" closures to the "houses" of West of the Mississippi River, or the Pacific Coast, or California, or Orange County, or Los Angeles?
I can understand drawing lines, but I don't understanding defending national lines.

 

[connerR]

I think people like boundaries and lines. I get a lot of responses from people who, when asked about borders, say: "this is our nation, that is theirs".

Perhaps people need national boundaries to establish their cultural boundaries? If you got rid of the wall between California and Mexico, what would differentiate the two places?

 

[User Name]

Yeah; I survive on the outskirts of civilization - I'm not prepared with skills enough to survive without it. All the same, I don't want to have Internet and MP3 music and access to world news and blah blah blah at the expense of the natural, or real-world living. And I think, unfortunately, this is the trade we make.

I don't think civilization on the whole or even our technologies are sustainable - they're gonna go, as the oil pools are further depleted and the coal is too ecologically costly to burn, and on and on... The question is how much of the natural world remains to sustain us as a species, and how able we are to adapt to living in a post-industrial landscape (if any natural land remains).
No, I'm aware that I too go away with civilization, but I'm okay with that. Can't live forever!

Best time to learn to prepare is while Civilization allows you the luxury of sustaining yourself off its waste. I enjoy all those things mentioned, but like you not at the expense of the organic world or organic societies/relationships.

A system of infinite hunger and finite resources, not very sustainable indeed. Oil depletion, species extinction, biosphere collapse, soil depletion, crop failure, disease, and famine just to name a few of the symptoms. Civilization will not go out with a bang, but rather has been continually falling apart and will eventually cease.

We've overshot carrying capacity and once our species crashes they'll be more room. Also once the last throws of Civilization end, the planet will have time to catch up.

Yeah, probably but I'm willing to try and survive and see things out.

Sorry if this entire post was WAY too off-topic, I know there is a "anti-civ" thread already but I enjoyed his post. To keep on topic I'll just state I don't care about immigration issues.

 

[Gudj]

I'd like to see Mexicans work to make their own nation better, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Wow Conner. That is a profoundly ignorant statement. If you don't see Mexican people working to make their own nation better, it's because you have not looked for even a second.

For the first time I can remember, I am actually shocked at someone else's point of view here.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Oaxaca_protests
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapatista_Army_of_National_Liberation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Revolution

Wikipedia is not the best place to look at any of this, but also read up on NAFTA

 

[bote]

If you got rid of the wall between California and Mexico, what would differentiate the two places?

gee, you mean we´d have to validate our sense of nationalistic superiority by actually weighing our own achievements, rather than just snickering at what a bunch of fuck ups the neighbours are?

what a crying shame that would be.

 

[bote]

I can sympathize with illegal immigrants; I'd want to get out of Mexico, too.

C´mon man, I´ve seen your posts and you are better than this.

 

[connerR]

Yeah, sorry for the poorly worded statements.

@Gudj: What I should have said and meant was: It seems like a lot of people are just outright fleeing Mexico. I'm not sure if that's the case for everyone, but I've talked to good number of Mexicans and I get this feeling that they view their country as a sinking ship. This is just personal conjecture, of course. Most of the Mexicans I know are from pretty bad areas, mostly border towns where the drug trade is high.

I'm vaguely aware of the Zapatista Movement, and I often hear of protests. I think the change I'm alluding to is on the governmental level. Corruption seems to be abundant.

I realize it's ignorant to judge all of Mexico based on the border towns. I honestly don't know much about the rest of the country. But that's what I'm referring to, bote. If I lived in Oaxaca or Tijuana or Ciudad Juarez, I'd want to get out of there. My friend's wife's family is from Tijuana. They went down there last year and said the mood amongst their family was at an all time low due to the political/social climate and the lack of safety. Again, this is an isolated incident I'm citing, but I've heard similar stories.

Again @bote, I'm saying that's what I think people see borders as, a way of forming that sense of nationalistic superiority.

So please, disregard my first posts, I wasn't thinking clearly when I wrote them.

 

[Gudj]

Yeah, sorry for the poorly worded statements.

@Gudj: What I should have said and meant was: It seems like a lot of people are just outright fleeing Mexico. I'm not sure if that's the case for everyone, but I've talked to good number of Mexicans and I get this feeling that they view their country as a sinking ship. This is just personal conjecture, of course. Most of the Mexicans I know are from pretty bad areas, mostly border towns where the drug trade is high.

Thanks for clarifying.

Alot of U.S. radicals are moving away from this country to, and have been for decades. I suppose your sinking ship analogy is why. Alot of people feel like no matter what any number of us do, we won't be able to fix it here. I don't know alot about Mexico, but I bet alot of people (especially in urban areas) do feel that way.

 

[bote]

I wouldn´t argue your point about the border towns, from what I´ve heard (and seen myself) they are pretty bad places to live.

I´m a little touchy when it comes to ¨rating¨ countries, because like I mentioned in an earlier post, I feel a lot of problems (border problems among them) are exacerbated by the propaghanda machines that tell people that happiness is working overtime and owing money on shit you don´t need.
So there are a lot of people trying to get to the states, some for good reasons, but many are trying to emigrate just because they have bought into the idea that it is ¨better¨ without logically defining what that means.
And this is problematic for everyone.

 

[Beegod Santana]

I've worked along side many illegal mexicans over the years and have found them to be overwhelmingly friendly hard working people who as soon as you treat them with respect give it right back. I have also met many illegals who where total shitbags, but who were none worse than the legal shitbags I see everyday.

I've also been denied work because I was white before, it pissed me off, but at the same time all I could think of was how many times most mexicans (and pretty much any other minority) have been denied something in this country because of their skin.

I don't support an open border, but what I do support is just making it possible for a realistic amount of people to immigrate from mexico every year. I'm really not educated enough on this subject to predict the outcomes of a relaxed or non-existant border

 

[veggieguy12]

This article is just a lil' over three years old, but it will inform the discussion.

 

[veggieguy12]

from the Amazon.com listing for the documentary "King Corn":

Q&A with Producer/Director Robert Kenner, Co-Producer/Food Expert Eric Schlosser

There is a section of the film that reveals how illegal immigrants are the faceless workers that help to bring food to our tables. Can you give us a profile of the average worker?
Schlosser: The typical farm worker is a young, Latino male who does not speak English and earns about $10,000 a year. The typical meatpacking worker has a similar background but earns about twice that amount. A very large proportion of the nation’s farm workers and meatpackers are illegal immigrants.

Why are there so many Spanish-speaking workers?
Kenner: The same thing that created obesity in this country, which is large productions of cheap corn, has put farmers out of work in foreign countries, whether it’s Mexico, Latin America or around the world. And those farmers can no longer grow food and compete with the U.S.’ subsidized food. So a lot of these farmers needed jobs and ended up coming into this country to work in our food production.

And they have been here for a number of years. But what’s happened is that we’ve decided that it’s no longer in the best interests of this country to have them here. But yet, these companies still need these people and they’re desperate, so they work out deals where they can have a few people arrested at a certain time so it doesn’t affect production. But it affects people’s lives. And these people are being deported, put in jail and sent away, but yet, the companies can go on and it really doesn’t affect their assembly line. And what happens is that they are replaced by other, desperate immigrant groups.

Could the American food industry exist without illegal immigrants?
Schlosser: The food industry would not only survive, but it would have a much more stable workforce. We would have much less rural poverty. And the annual food bill of the typical American family would barely increase. Doubling the hourly wage of every farm worker in this country might add $50 at most to a family’s annual food bill.

 

[anne]

I recently downloaded the episode of 30 Days about one of the minutemen guys going to live with a family of illegal immigrants for a month. I think they picked the biggest d-bag they could find for the show and the sweetest family to get stuck with him.

 

[hassysmacker]

"How to Solve Illegal Immigration:
Illegal Immigration is one of the most divisive issues in America today. Pinky asks Daisy for his take on what's really going on. Added bonus: Daisy tells us how to solve the whole problem in 5 minutes. For more information visit: http://www.pinkyshow.org/"