Illegal immigration (1 Viewer)

veggieguy12

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Just wondering what are thoughts of StP users about national borders, border police, crossing borders, immigration to the USA, the political debate about border fences and troops guarding illegal crossers, al-Qaeda coming over "to destroy our freedom", Mexicans "taking our jobs", all that.
What do you say about it?
 
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veggieguy12

veggieguy12

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Well, in principle I don't believe in borders - effectively, I will rarely regard them, and I wouldn't impose them. That said, I believe communities can decide what they want or don't want, and that allows for racism or homophobia or whatever. (My guess is that racist communities would find that they don't do quite as well discriminating on any basis other than ability to provide for the greater good.)

I understand that the job market is tight, I just see that more as a product of factors other than illegal immigration. Firstly, legal immigration would result in just about the same problem of too many workers, something which will only worsen as the population grows. The difference between legal or illegal is that the employers see the illegals as more exploitable - imagine if all the illegals could become legal in a period of 5 days or 14 days. You'd still have too many people for too little jobs. (And this system relies upon these people who aren't documented to keep costs low, they're essential to how it operates right now.)

Secondly, there's a reason most of the illegal immigrants are from Mexico & Guatemala & Nicaragua & Honduras, etc. rather than Canada or Germany or Japan - these places are all poor, usually due to US corporate exploitation, and often ridden with US-supported pseudo-fascist governments that the people had to war against for mere human rights and a fair shake at life.
About a year ago, the Mexican government was on the verge of legalizing marijuana. It doesn't take much to imagine the money this would bring that country, and at the same time reduce crime and gangsters' power. Funny enough, the US objected and the legislation didn't go through. Mexico, Peru, Colombia, and more could all be very wealthy for the more profitable crops they can grow - but my own nation doesn't let them produce more than bananas and coffee. We all know how cheap those are in grocery stores here, after all that labor and transport is paid-for. So of course people are leaving there.

I don't blame these poor people, having to leave your family and take great risks just to make a bit of money? Nobody wants to do that. They feel it's their best option.
I blame the capitalists above us all doing the hiring & firing. The misplaced blame one hears from the stereotypical Redneck comes largely from a lack of class-consciousness. Y'know, before "Mexican illegals" were the bogeymen, it was emancipated Blacks coming up from the South after the war, or it was Polish "stealing" Irish jobs, etc. To me, that all just sounds like Divide & Conquer.

Most of the people comprising the Minutemen and the other 'America First!' anti-(illegal) immigrant uproar are not the wealthy, but other working people who have to compete for employment - looks a bit like crabs in a pot, pulling each other down instead of rising together. The wealthy want us to squabble and scrabble for crumbs!
Imagine if the working Americans and the working non-Americans united to demand healthcare for everyone, and decent wages of a set standard. It would benefit everyone more than trying to keep people out, or punish them when they're caught over here illegally. In the past, unions were slow/resistant to racially integrate, and I think they found that to their boss's benefit.

I try not to see things as Black vs White vs Brown as much as Rich vs Poor, and increasingly I'm not even seeing Left vs Right but more Up vs Down.

And still, I think a town or village should be able to decide they don't want "outsiders" coming in. But such a place would have a mentality to take care of its people, not let them take shitty jobs or have to work for low pay while another profit greatly.

Guess I'm just full of slogans and jargon and fantasy bullshit, is all.
 
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People are people hispanic, white, black, whatever. People mainly have problems with the hispanic crowd that are coming "taking our jobs) but you know what theyre busting their asses getting treated like shit and working for dirt most of the time to provide for their family, and if you had to put yourself in their situation Im sure you would do the exact same thing. America is the only one good country that you know you have security and rights here. Now you may say well they can just do it legally...that costs alot of money and it can take up to 2 years to get everything situated and then most of the time some thing is screwed up in the paperwork and they end up getting deported. Me Im all for it people gotta do what they can to survive and support their loved ones.
 
I

IBRRHOBO

I deleted myself
From a national security point-of-view I believe open borders are problematic. Same goes pertaining to employment of illegal aliens. With that said and notwithstanding an efficient and EFFECTIVE means of securing the border, I believe we are, by and through our own complicity, both inviting terrorism and outsourcing all but the menial labor positions. History catagorically repeats itself. We are, in essence, Rome in its dying days.

As it pertains to political applications: first, democracy is still in its infancy and may not even reach adolescence. Anarchy is synonymous w/communism in that neither will ever be applied in their 'true book form'. Everyone can rant all they want; however, if the system we have now were to not prevail this very thing: StP, would not be on. No trucks to bring the food, no slave @ McDonald's, no idiot Suzie Q Homeaker to toss out shit we rummage thru the dumpster for. It's not rocket science. Civilized society, no matter how much many talk of living in the woods, etc., still depends upon an organized, logisitical system to provide byproducts for those of us who live off them (e.g.; food, clothing and shelter ... see Maslow, et al.).

This is probably something that should be explored, in depth. Not necessarily the illegal aliens, but how many people REALLY understand anarchy and other political systems beyond the mantra of the punk rock band. Hmnn, maybe I will..........
 

maus

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Illegal immigration issues is a lot like the abortion issue... A lot of people have very strong and miss informed opinions on it.
yeah, like you for one.

think about it, competing with other poor folks is not a fact of nature but a reality imposed by capitalism. is the best solution you can come up with to support a bunch of nationalist gangsters (ie the federal government, migra etc) to keep poor folks out, and maintain control over the circulation of bodies and commodities, through the nation state and capitalist economy?

because my solution would have to do with all the poor and exploited folks and all sides of any border getting together to kick the boss class's ass, not to die on their borders. the end of class society means the end of separation between us and our means of existence. therefore, no matter fighting over shitty ass jobs, citizenship papers and other crumbs from the bosses' table... revolution if you will.

"every broke mothafucka finna form a gang, and when we come we're takin everythang" -the coup
 
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veggieguy12

veggieguy12

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From a national security point-of-view I believe open borders are problematic.
I don't think there is much "national security", only the illusion of it, more or less, by the public.
And anyway, if we (the vulnerable public) want to take measures to prevent resentful people coming to make attacks upon us, we can simply take down the Stars & Stripes flying over other lands, and then take it down here... Giving up the notion of a government and the accompanying flag that represents it would be a pre-emption to any attacks on that government, no?

...if the system we have now were to not prevail this very thing: StP, would not be on. No trucks to bring the food, no slave @ McDonald's, no idiot Suzie Q Homeaker to toss out shit we rummage thru the dumpster for. It's not rocket science. Civilized society, no matter how much many talk of living in the woods, etc., still depends upon an organized, logisitical system to provide byproducts for those of us who live off them (e.g.; food, clothing and shelter ... see Maslow, et al.).
Yeah; I survive on the outskirts of civilization - I'm not prepared with skills enough to survive without it. All the same, I don't want to have Internet and MP3 music and access to world news and blah blah blah at the expense of the natural, or real-world living. And I think, unfortunately, this is the trade we make.
I don't think civilization on the whole or even our technologies are sustainable - they're gonna go, as the oil pools are further depleted and the coal is too ecologically costly to burn, and on and on... The question is how much of the natural world remains to sustain us as a species, and how able we are to adapt to living in a post-industrial landscape (if any natural land remains).
No, I'm aware that I too go away with civilization, but I'm okay with that. Can't live forever!
 
I

IBRRHOBO

I deleted myself
I am really impressed there veggieguy12! I'm not being sarcastic here either! You have taken a debate and not turned it into an arguement BECAUSE you're actually learned on your topic! I mean here's some productive conversation.

If you're ever thru TN, look me up! See, that's often the problem I run into; it's not that I don't think that there are two sides to a coin, it's that those who try to talk about them don't have a well-thought, logical discussion of them! Karma points for you!
 
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veggieguy12

veggieguy12

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I got to wonderin' what StP'ers thought of it all when I was trying to find some film info on Amazon.com and came across the coverfor the DVD of "Mojados", and I just thought it was an awesome picture:
 
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veggieguy12

veggieguy12

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I should say that I don't have any personal experience of trying for a kind of job that undocumented laborers are often hired for; I suspect one's stake in the debate isn't unlike the whole thing of sharing music or movies online.
If I was trying to sell my recipes book, I might not want them posted online, or if I made a film or an album, I might not like it being available for free download.
Then again, some musicians don't mind free downloads of their stuff.
 

compass

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I grew up in LA, worked shitty food service jobs where, besides management, I was the only non-Hispanic. There was a saying they were really fond of, "we didn't jump the border, the border jumped us." Now in Cali, that's pretty damned true, where, even when the states took control of the Southwest, the Latino communities still had generations old deep roots. I mean shit, California didn't break away from Mexico until 1846, and became a state four years later. That isn't that long ago.

I think people like Widerstand are a minority, though that may be changing with the worsening economy. From my experience, immigrants really do take the jobs that most people just don't want to do. This system is dependent on a permanent underclass, and they fill that role. We wouldn't be eating without them.

But hey, don't worry about it. A good number of the Mexicans I know have been saving their valuable dollars, sending them back to Mexico to their families. You'd be surprised by how many of them own homes and land free and clear. I knew a guy making pizzas who owns a good sized ranch with livestock. When shit gets bad enough here, which it looks like it just might, they'll go back home.

It's funny though, Mexico is having immigration problems too. There's some jokes about how there's no Mexicans in Mexico anymore, they're all here, and Mexico is now full of Guatemalans, Hondurans, Salvadorenos, etc.
 

Angela

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Secondly, there's a reason most of the illegal immigrants are from Mexico & Guatemala & Nicaragua & Honduras, etc. rather than Canada or Germany or Japan - these places are all poor, usually due to US corporate exploitation, and often ridden with US-supported pseudo-fascist governments that the people had to war against for mere human rights and a fair shake at life.
I don't blame these poor people, having to leave your family and take great risks just to make a bit of money? Nobody wants to do that. They feel it's their best option.
I blame the capitalists above us all doing the hiring & firing. The misplaced blame one hears from the stereotypical Redneck comes largely from a lack of class-consciousness. Y'know, before "Mexican illegals" were the bogeymen, it was emancipated Blacks coming up from the South after the war, or it was Polish "stealing" Irish jobs, etc. To me, that all just sounds like Divide & Conquer.
I tend to agree with veggieguy on this issue. You can't really blame people for "stealing" jobs when if you study US foreign policy and history at all you find out that most of what's wrong in Mexico and other nations in Central America is the direct result of policies by the US and other wealthy nations promoting corporate exploitation and corrupt/violent governments to back it up. The existence of export based agriculture has been stealing many peoples lands and livlihoods from them for generations.
And no matter how much people will try to claim that their anti-immigrant sentiments aren't racist I find it hard to remove the stench of racism from this debate. People in wealthy and/or white countries are able to legally get travel and work visas and often do overstay them but usually are never mentioned in the debate over illegal immigrants.
Unfortunately I don't think the class war is going to happen any time soon, unless things get really bad for a large enough percentage of people but I do blame the class structure and exploitation for this, not the people that are trying to survive any way that they can.
 

katiehabits

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You are just dreaming... A class war is not going to happening anytime soon... Got any other suggestions?

Try to think in the terms of reality.
just take a look at what's happened in Greece over the past few months they are in a class war right now but the "left" isn't cooperating with each other and the "right", the rich, the bosses, ect... are unified. a woman union organizer got sulfuric acid thrown at her face and was seriously harmed because she was a powerful, out spoken, women.

i live in canada; we're known as a multicultural country. in my home town all the taxi drivers are east indian. there's alot of exploited truck drivers that are also east indian. during fruit season the okanogain (BC) is over run with illegal mexican immigrants to pick fruit and do farm work. most of these folks are treated very poorly and get paid less than legal wages. so what if they are "takeing our jobs" but how many of us need to support a family of 4? if they can't get jobs in their home country let them come to support themselves and families. we are privileged people and our privilege depends on the exploited minorities of the world. even within our boarders if you believe in imaginary lines......
 

Angela

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Widerstand.. Sorry you cant get work. Get a tan, and wear a fake mustache (black one) and just say 'Que?' alot and you;d probablu get a job lickidy-split.
I haven't tried to get landscaping work in the Portland area(that kind of work is also notorious for being quite sexist in their hiring) but I tend to think that anyone that won't hire you simply because your a "gringo" if your working for the same pay is probably not someone that you want to work for. Employers that specifically want to hire only illegal immigrants regardless of pay are usually wanting to exploit them in some way, take advantage of the fact that their status makes them vulnerable and far less likely to report things to the cops or other authorities.
 

Geoff

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Living in the south texas with many friends and family that have crossed "illegally" kind of makes this a key issue for myself. As of this next month the 18 foot cement border wall that we've been organizing against for the past few years will be fully constructed. It's a sad reality that this wall is nothing more than a symbol, it isn't going to work, rates of undocumented people crossing are as high as ever. corruption and violence on the mexican side of the border is getting worse because of it (drug wars and such) natural habitat is being destroyed. the wall is actually about a mile in on the US side from the Rio Grande river which is a main resource for farmers, and other workers in the area. land is being stolen from people to build this land (some of these people being indeginous and living along the river). the ocealot an Endangered species in the area is being threatened by the wall as well. the wall is blocking access of the river (the only large water source in this hot arid cliimate) from many ecosystems. And all for what. to make people up north feel a little bit safer. more than 80 percent of people where the wall is actually being built oppose it. Now that the wall is in the way it just makes it more neccasary for corruption in our "border security" dept. People are being raped, molested and murdered by the migra. A lot of the time the migra are the ones who cross people too (the corruption i was speaking of) and after they get their money they usually don't keep their end of the bargain and just wind up dumping these people in the middle of nowhere. And now we're having even worse human rights abuses in the immigrant detention centers. The prisons hold hundreds of people each at a time. there is lack of food, water, medical services. many people are dieing from curable diseases in these prisons. People are being beaten and molested in these prisons by guards and by other inmates. and nothing is being done. on the rare occassion that one of these people's legal representation shows up (attorneys for the undocumented people) access is not granted and they are refused their rights to see thier clients. there are even children prisons for the children that are detained crossing. And people don't just stay in these places for a week or so. on average you're stuck here for at least 2 months. If anyone is intrested in more stuff just messege me and i'll send you some links. sorry for the poor writing technique but i had to spit this out quick since i have class in about 5 minutes.
 

bote

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i know what a day's work is, i'm not going to outline my history with borders and work (though i'd love to, talking about myself is fun)

Why are the Mexicans coming to work in the states? because they are following after the flow of capital that has been leaving their (and other) country(ies) for decades, by means of the NAFTAs and IMFs of this world. And the desire to live the American dream is in all the millions and billions spent promoting goods and culture (movies, fashion, language) worldwide.
In Laredo, a Honduran told me his dream, the one he was risking it for, was taking his son to Walmart. Now where did he get that idea?

(continued below)
 

bote

Pilgrim
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(cont.)

So what I say is this: if you want to foster and enjoy the rewards of a "global" economy, then standard of living and culture must be viewed as global property as well.
When your neighbour comes into your store and buys your shit everyday, you can't just kick them off your property once their dough is in your pocket.
They are "our" jobs, as in everyone who is subject to the economy that created them.
as it stands, fuck the border
 

syphilust

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All I can think of is a poster I saw
with a native man
which said
"Who are you calling illegal, whitey?"

Im making an assumption that no one on here is indigenous: so my question is, dont you feel just a bit hypocritical? must be sad to think that white people should decide who can enter the country "legally" to protect their job security (and other things, such as voting majority status) while knowing fully the land was stolen from brown people...
why are you upset that you have to "compete" with non-whites for shitty jobs?-- I can only read that as saying you deserve that job over a brown person and therefore shouldn't have to compete.
 
I

IBRRHOBO

I deleted myself
Hmnn, lots of stuff to ponder here; who should I piss off first? Ach, gotcha! Anywayz, I for one am not gonna slit my own throat for being white. We've been down that road in South Africa after Mandella came in, got rid of all the whites and we see where it's @ now. Class war? That's some pretty good towing of the 'party line' there comrade. Isn't gonna happen any time soon. I will, though, pay lip service to the comment about Greece: Have ya seen El Presidante hanging upside down from a tree yet (in re: Mousollini)? Nah, let the peasents kick some cans, throw a few rocks ... fuck it, place some instigators there and burn down some slum sections of town so we can put high rises in and write it off as the anarchist agitators.

What I'm driving at here and it's really poly sci 101 is that illegal immigration will ALWAYS be one of the lynchpins to the 'bogeyman' necessary to keep the masses chasing after ghosts. Give the masses something to chase ... LIKE THEIR FUCKING TAILS ... and they'll stray from the real issues! Democracy vis a vis Capitolism will never collapse. Why, you might ask? Because it WOULD NOT MAKE MONEY! And as to NAFTA, et al., in the bigger scheme of things, they are pointless endeavours in diplomacy. Fiduciarily, they accomplish nill.

Side note to the indiginous: there is no perfect world. There are no morals in war. Vini, Vidi, Vici.

In conclusion, chase and attack the the root cause of your disillusionment: money. Ah, but that's right! You still like your cheap computer made by the little girl in Bangladesh who gets the shit beat out of her for not making enough computer chips; still like the running water that you shower with flowing through the polyvinylchloride pipes made in China by the little boy who is in prison because his father is a dissident, ad nauseum.

Where I'm from these attempts to be white and make everything right is called being a hypocrite.
 

Dameon

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I think it's ironic that Americans are so upset about illegal immigration when this land is founded on illegal immigration. I guess we do have good reason to be paranoid, considering that when our ancestors illegally immigrated here, they killed off a good portion of the residents and took the country from them.

I don't blame Mexicans for trying to get over here and make a better life for themselves; if I lived in a shitty country with a poor economy, you can bet I'd do my best to go somewhere else. Oh wait, I do and I will.

It's also funny that I've talked to Mexicans who are actually going back to Mexico because our economy's so crappy and work is so scarce.
 

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