n00bs...and why we should welcome them

[hartage]

i am always concerned about those who querry sensitive information. old alarm bells ring from my days in intelligence.

If your that concerned ask matt to look over the logs and see if I've asked about, discussed, or even come across any of your sacred information. I've said to plenty of people here that after thinking about it I'm gonna rubber tramp or hitch it. I don't have the time to figure out RR. I don't have the back (anymore) to be hopping on/off moving trains. Hell my pocketbook can't handle tickets so I might not even hitch. Freedom of travel of having no commitments drew me here. Keep all your precious RR info, I didn't even ask for it.

If you really knew your shit in intelligence. I'm sure you would have realized that this site is hosted. Getting info at the server itself takes far less effort. Is completely invisible and total in scope. It's also just sitting in a rack somewhere out of sight out of mind to everyone including matt. Golden rule of computer security. If you have physical access to the box you own it, period. But hey, if you think I'm Mr. Slick superspy I'll go with that. It's a hell of a lot more glamorous than reality.

 

[IBRRHOBO]

the last sentence wasn't directed at you; i am always blunt when i confront folks. you've never asked me for spot on rr info; i actually believe i spoke w/you about some coding one time and that's from another thread.

as to the server being easier to gain info, i disagree. what's displayed in the threads is public (see Time's Article). getting log files are FAR more difficult and require a warrant (Widerstand will vouch for this as he has read the emails between me and the Department of Defense over their requests for such pertaining to my sites).

in addressing my '...knowing my shit...' in intelligence, i was a glamorous paper pusher; an analyst. my dd-214 hangs on my wall and those who've been here can attest to it. btw the 214 is a discharge paper from military service and it's issued to those of us who had the fucking BALLS to do more than blow hot air. three medals also are also framed next to it; one of which has george washington's face afixed. folks like me went to fucked up places so that folks like YOU could have your precious little internet, your fucking walk to the stores w/o toting an AK, your electricity, etc. YOU may not have much respect for the men and women who served this country; at least WE defended your right to have your opinion! so, yeah, i did some time in nifty countries eating foreign food and it don't mean nothing.

i could care less about the personalization of threads; that's for the moderators. i'm not getting personal w/you that's why i am responding. my statements are a general indictment against the folks (and many know who they are) who constantly and consistently feel they 'have a need to know'. believe me, if there comes a time that i disagree w/you it will be worded in such a way as there is no mistaking it.

now, the concept that you put forth i am ADAMANTLY opposed to w/respect to railroad information. you say you're an admin on other sites so i would ask why you don't share your passwords w/all the folks on those sites. why do you even need the status as an admin anyway? i mean, after all, you're all into glastnost right?! i mean wasn't it you who said that information should be available to all earlier? so, if you are going to 'control' information on the one hand and then rile against it on the other it strikes me as circular logic, hartage.

now i've only addressed RR info. let's take your logic and apply it to squats. should we now force everyone to post their exact location of their squats so that 'all' might share in them? that included law enforcement. hey, gotta be open here, 'eh? or how about the nice, quaint spots to relax and smoke some reefer w/o being hassled? yeah, we need to let EVERYONE know those spots. or how about how/where to get free copies and mailing from one of the 'giants' in the copy/mailing business [insert here UPS, FedEx-Kinkos, etc.). oh yeah, i can see how that would play out, but we need to let EVERYONE know because hartage's glastnost policy is the humanistic approach.

get real. you proffered a line of reason which was faulty; ney, you attached to a line of reasoning, and it has been found wanting.

the reality is this:

Si tatlia jungere possis sit tibi sit tibi scire posse.

 

[finn]

In your particular case with medical procedures. What would it serve if you refused to tell me information on a procedure on the silly notion that I will go out and recklessly attempt to perform it on someone else ? The social duty to protect me from myself stopped at 18.

My decision is based on real life experience, not principle. You have a nice theory, and that's fine, but it doesn't test up to messy reality- this might be where the real disconnect is. You are criticizing us for the decisions we have made from the life lessons we've learned because you have your personally untested ideas.

Some people really dislike the hospitals, and I don't blame them, but some treatments are simply meant for being used when there is no access to more advanced medical care. Done wrong, one of the procedures I know can kill you in less than a day, and will at least slow down your recovery by a month provided the person doesn't die.

You have your ideas and theories, but give them a try before you try debating us over its merits.

 

[logan714]

hartage,

You're pissing off the wrong people. I'll give you an example of info. If you were in Tucson and asked me where to camp I'd tell you a safe place to camp, but I sure as hell am not going to tell you where the camp is that we've been using since 1980. I've been camping with some of the people there since 1980, and the integrity of the camp is partially my responsibility and who the hell knows when I'll have to go camp there again.

Now, what people are trying to say it, get a little something under your belt. The people you're pissing off here are the people that, if you were out there and say "okay, I'm out here and I'm in xyz town, anybody know shit about this?" And you could get exact directions to everything there.

So, if you want to piss everybody off, if you end up out there you'll make it harder for yourself. If you just chill and glean the information you can and build upon that you can actually start putting together a database of information for yourself and then expand upon it when you're out there.

I'll give you an example of my life. There's a home bum that sits by Wal-mart here. When I have money on me (but I use my credit cards a lot and don't carry money), and I'm in the right lane, and can stop I hand homeboy a buck every time I see him, because I've been out there. Buy you know what, I don't trip on it when I can't. You know why? Homeboy's an adult. He put himself there. He has to take what he can get running his trip. And that's it. And that's about the head space everyone's telling you here. We'll help you if we can, but we're not going to trip on it if we can't.

Logan

 

[Beegod Santana]

Ahh.... from the debated subject to personal attacks on my integrity now eh ? Fantastic ! That didn't take you long at all did it ? Eh, not a big surprise.

Two months or so on here.... Then you mention giving out usual info.... What is this ? Are we whipping it out now and comparing penis length ? Boy you sure got your feathers ruffled. Points with zero basis in truth are shrugged off without a second thought. Points that hit a nerve though.... only does so if there is a truth in there to hit.

Alright, let me satisfy your penis length fetish. I have stated openly in chat, PM's and posts what my situation is. That I got in a car wreck. That my life was turned upside down and that the appeal of the freedom of traveling brought me here. I've said openly to many people here that I have not ridden rails, flown signs, dumpster dived or even hitch hiked. That I'm here to learn from everyone before I set off on my own next year after I heal from my injuries and settle legal issues.

CONGRATULATIONS CAPTAIN OBVIOUS ! FOR CLARIFYING WHAT I'VE BEEN TELLING PEOPLE HERE THE WHOLE TIME I'VE BEEN HERE

So where does this go now ? We turn this personal I hunt you down you hunt me down ? My interest was to stick up for freedom of information and not be judgmental towards others. I'm not sinking to your level. If it makes you happy and satisfies your penis length issues I'll bow and admit.... You have more experience than my zero experience in everything train related, dumpster related, etc. I don't steal, I'm clean, I don't drink, I don't smoke pot or smoke, I don't abuse any drugs. Oh yeah and I almost forgot, I hang out with the rainbow family (hippies) also. There, are you all happy now ? Want a lollipop too ?

Now I'll tell you what I am. I'm the guy that didn't care if you are black, white, yellow or purple. I don't give a shit if someone is rich or broke. I don't care if your a punk, redneck, or whatever group you identify with. I don't care if you know less than I do or more than I do, smarter or not. As long as you treat me well I will treat you well.

What do you know ? How to be an elitist ? Personal attacks when someone disagrees with you ? When a thread breaks down into personal attacks that's my cue to exit stage left.

Dude you started the personal attacks a long time ago, you just did it in that pc passive agressive manner "I'm not talking about you specifically, but...". "Usual" was a typo, I apologize, I meant to type "useful." All this penis size shit? That's also your own little creation. Lots of people on here have traveled for much longer than I have who don't seem to have a problem w/ me and have helped me out on occassion. There's also a lot of newbie kids on here that I've given advice to and helped out over the years. There's even kids who have admittedly not traveled one bit but who post cool articles and music on here that I'm totally cool with (they also don't go around asking for sensitive info they have no use for). You however come out here and start throwing labels on people for saying that some information shouldn't be public then claim to not care about labels. You write long rants directed at specific people then claim that you're not gonna sink to "my level" and call people out for what they are. Well I call a spade a spade and you sound like a self-absorbed whiner with a lot of self-pity who feels the world owes you something. You say you're compiling all the info you can over the next year to see if you're gonna like traveling / squatting. Well, first of all, a lot of the sensitive info you could get here would be worthless in a year. Secondly, you don't think there's anything dick about studying someone's lifestyle and then going out and dumpster diving, flying signs and blowing up spots just so you can see if you like it? That'd be like me painting my skin brown to see if I liked being mexican for a week.

 

[katiehabits]

i think that it's really important for seasoned travelers to teach the the "noobs" or whateverthefuck you want to call em about our lifestyle and to teach them the right way to do shit. not only should we teach these folks but we should teach them "safety" so to say. like to keep your mouth shut about things and to not be seen while dumpstering, train rideing, squatting, shoplifting, whatever.....
i had a friend who took me on the second train i ever rode tell me the three limb rule as he calls it, always keep three of your limbs on the train at all times so not to lose balance and fall off. that's something i tell kids who are new at rideing because i don't want to hear about how some dumb young kid lost a arm while hoping from one car to another.
or tell folks where cameras are in stores or where the blind spots are. because i think to keep us all going we need to stay invisible in a sence so to teach these new folks how to not be seen keeps us all safe.
don't just refuse to disclose info to new folks cuz they don't know anything, teach them the things that keep you from getting caught.

 

[Loaf]

I think this whole argument between the involved parties really emphasized the purpose of this topic being started. Hartage you look like a PC elitist and the rest of you are no better right now.It is personal preference hartage if someone wants to share info let them, if they don't then fine they don't.It is at their discretion.Simple as that. None of them are saying they won't help someone out, they are simply saying that they won't wipe their ass for them. As, for the attack against hartage, I agree it was not necessary at all.

 

[connerR]

i have concluded this lifestyle to be like freemasonry. there are gatherings, secret texts, codes, brotherhood, secrecy, signs, etc. let's make it a full on secret society just for kicks.

 

[logan714]

You kids sound like the Baskin Robbins of Road Culture. 31 different flavors and everyone has got to be better than the other one. Most hillarious one I've run into so far is a PC Vegan that won't wear anything but cotton and thinks they are better then we are because they drink organic apple juice.

Goddamn. This all just started out as a bunch of people that were on the road, that for the most part could put up with each other. Yeah, one of my friends told me there's only two types of music, country or western, but we could still listen to Conway Twitty or Hank Williams and it would be dealable. Now it just turned into a cluster fuck that I find hillarious.

Logan

 

[Loaf]

hell yeah in that one Logan! It about getting away from all this shit for me. That is why i ride, I like simple things. This arguing shit ISN'T simple.

 

[hartage]

as to the server being easier to gain info, i disagree. what's displayed in the threads is public (see Time's Article). getting log files are FAR more difficult and require a warrant (Widerstand will vouch for this as he has read the emails between me and the Department of Defense over their requests for such pertaining to my sites).

I'm not much for warrants I don't know when they are likely obtained or not. I'm talking about nuts and bolts of taking information from a website or from a group that is based on a website. You were alluding to people joining and asking around for information. Using a metaphor of a group in a building and sending a spy in to poke around. What I'm saying is why bother with that ? You can just compromise the server and have EVERYTHING. Access to all the data, public and private threads, PM's, chat, everything including the logs of where the data is coming from/going to. Why bother sending a person in the building when you can just take the whole building foundation and all with everything inside it. This can also be done without the occupants even knowing anything is happening to begin with. To the people inside and those coming to/from the building nothing has changed it's just life as usual.

This is actually how wiretaps happen since all voice phone are just data streams now going through servers. They are tapped where the data is not encrypted at the servers passing all the traffic. It is the same with websites. It's most vulnerable point is at the host itself. The very server physically running the website.

If you knew your shit in intelligence and gathering info from computers. You would have known that sending in a person to ask around is actually the foolish thing to do. It would just run a high risk of tipping off to your intelligence gathering. You can get that same information in a much more complete and undetectable way by taking over the server.

in addressing my '...knowing my shit...' in intelligence, i was a glamorous paper pusher; an analyst. my dd-214 hangs on my wall and those who've been here can attest to it. btw the 214 is a discharge paper from military service and it's issued to those of us who had the fucking BALLS to do more than blow hot air. three medals also are also framed next to it; one of which has george washington's face afixed. folks like me went to fucked up places so that folks like YOU could have your precious little internet, your fucking walk to the stores w/o toting an AK, your electricity, etc. YOU may not have much respect for the men and women who served this country; at least WE defended your right to have your opinion! so, yeah, i did some time in nifty countries eating foreign food and it don't mean nothing.

I'm not questioning your entire career. Just your agreement to the allusion to someone actually getting on the website asking questions for the purpose of information gathering.
Like using a Q-tip to mop a floor it's the wrong tool for the wrong job. Had you done any network security or gathered any protected data on computers it would have been obvious to you. You can't fly your "I've been in intelligence" flag then agree to such an obviously wrong allusion and not have that flag questioned.

now, the concept that you put forth i am ADAMANTLY opposed to w/respect to railroad information. you say you're an admin on other sites so i would ask why you don't share your passwords w/all the folks on those sites. why do you even need the status as an admin anyway? i mean, after all, you're all into glastnost right?! i mean wasn't it you who said that information should be available to all earlier? so, if you are going to 'control' information on the one hand and then rile against it on the other it strikes me as circular logic, hartage.

now i've only addressed RR info. let's take your logic and apply it to squats. should we now force everyone to post their exact location of their squats so that 'all' might share in them? that included law enforcement. hey, gotta be open here, 'eh? or how about the nice, quaint spots to relax and smoke some reefer w/o being hassled? yeah, we need to let EVERYONE know those spots. or how about how/where to get free copies and mailing from one of the 'giants' in the copy/mailing business [insert here UPS, FedEx-Kinkos, etc.). oh yeah, i can see how that would play out, but we need to let EVERYONE know because hartage's glastnost policy is the humanistic approach.

Passwords ? logins ? Apples and oranges. I am talking about HOW TO INFORMATION that should be free NOT THE KEY TO YOUR FRONT DOOR. There are exceptions in freedom of speech and freedom of information act that address private information such as access control.

The purpose and start of this thread was to be MORE ACCOMMODATING TO NOOBS. Instead of withholding information for the sole purpose of denying them aid. THAT was what I was sticking up for and basic information should be free to help those with less/no experience. Now your talking about logins and passwords for network admins and locations of squats ? Wow, quite a leap.


" Hartage's...... policy is the humanistic approach " Ya, that's right. Without your exaggerations and sarcasm about locations and passwords the humanistic approach is ultimately what I'm sticking up for. You FINALLY hit it right on the head.

WITH ALL THE ELITISM AND SELF-INTEREST GOING ON THE HUMANISTIC APPROACH IS TOTALLY LOST

As I've said before, when "they" do it to us it's oppression, when we do it to our own it's all good ? Humanistic approach should be the same to us or from us.

 

[hartage]

My decision is based on real life experience, not principle. You have a nice theory, and that's fine, but it doesn't test up to messy reality- this might be where the real disconnect is. You are criticizing us for the decisions we have made from the life lessons we've learned because you have your personally untested ideas.

Some people really dislike the hospitals, and I don't blame them, but some treatments are simply meant for being used when there is no access to more advanced medical care. Done wrong, one of the procedures I know can kill you in less than a day, and will at least slow down your recovery by a month provided the person doesn't die.

You have your ideas and theories, but give them a try before you try debating us over its merits.

The ideology I'm debating here is the purposeful denial of aid to new people and being judgmental. Also that the justifications of doing so are exactly the same elitism and oppression used against us by mainstream society. IBRRHOBO actually described it in sarcasm of course..... "Hartage's..... humanistic approach" What is wrong with that ? We want it applied to us, why don't we apply it to others even if they are new ?

 

[hartage]

hartage,

You're pissing off the wrong people. I'll give you an example of info. If you were in Tucson and asked me where to camp I'd tell you a safe place to camp, but I sure as hell am not going to tell you where the camp is that we've been using since 1980. I've been camping with some of the people there since 1980, and the integrity of the camp is partially my responsibility and who the hell knows when I'll have to go camp there again.

Now, what people are trying to say it, get a little something under your belt. The people you're pissing off here are the people that, if you were out there and say "okay, I'm out here and I'm in xyz town, anybody know shit about this?" And you could get exact directions to everything there.

So, if you want to piss everybody off, if you end up out there you'll make it harder for yourself. If you just chill and glean the information you can and build upon that you can actually start putting together a database of information for yourself and then expand upon it when you're out there.

I'll give you an example of my life. There's a home bum that sits by Wal-mart here. When I have money on me (but I use my credit cards a lot and don't carry money), and I'm in the right lane, and can stop I hand homeboy a buck every time I see him, because I've been out there. Buy you know what, I don't trip on it when I can't. You know why? Homeboy's an adult. He put himself there. He has to take what he can get running his trip. And that's it. And that's about the head space everyone's telling you here. We'll help you if we can, but we're not going to trip on it if we can't.

Logan

I understand what your saying and appreciate the effort. But how can I not say anything when there is what amounts to ill-will for the evil sin of simply being new ? At one point everyone was new. Now as a community we hold it against others for being where we've all been ? (new) IBRRHOBO accused me of having a humanistic approach. Yeah, he's right I do.

 

[hartage]

Dude you started the personal attacks a long time ago, you just did it in that pc passive agressive manner "I'm not talking about you specifically, but...". "Usual" was a typo, I apologize, I meant to type "useful." All this penis size shit? That's also your own little creation. Lots of people on here have traveled for much longer than I have who don't seem to have a problem w/ me and have helped me out on occassion. There's also a lot of newbie kids on here that I've given advice to and helped out over the years. There's even kids who have admittedly not traveled one bit but who post cool articles and music on here that I'm totally cool with (they also don't go around asking for sensitive info they have no use for). You however come out here and start throwing labels on people for saying that some information shouldn't be public then claim to not care about labels. You write long rants directed at specific people then claim that you're not gonna sink to "my level" and call people out for what they are. Well I call a spade a spade and you sound like a self-absorbed whiner with a lot of self-pity who feels the world owes you something. You say you're compiling all the info you can over the next year to see if you're gonna like traveling / squatting. Well, first of all, a lot of the sensitive info you could get here would be worthless in a year. Secondly, you don't think there's anything dick about studying someone's lifestyle and then going out and dumpster diving, flying signs and blowing up spots just so you can see if you like it? That'd be like me painting my skin brown to see if I liked being mexican for a week.

Passive aggressive manner ? I told you the straight truth. I was refering (but failed to point out) to widerstand's post that was chock full of elitism and others suggesting the same things. (to make it more difficult for new people) You said nothing elitist. I gave you nothing but the straight truth. I already said that I should have been more clear that I was not referring to what you said. What more do you want ?

Penis size ..... it is you telling me "you've only been here two months" then you asking me to contribute my own knowledge then maybe you'll grace me with your own. This is a challenge to compare my level of experience to yours.... a penis length match. Get it now ?

" Well I call a spade a spade and you sound like a self-absorbed whiner with a lot of self-pity who feels the world owes you something. You say you're compiling all the info you can over the next year to see if you're gonna like traveling / squatting. Well, first of all, a lot of the sensitive info you could get here would be worthless in a year. Secondly, you don't think there's anything dick about studying someone's lifestyle and then going out and dumpster diving, flying signs and blowing up spots just so you can see if you like it? That'd be like me painting my skin brown to see if I liked being mexican for a week. "

Oh so now I have to justify my reasons of wanting to travel to you ? First though like you, I'll call a spade a spade. Fine, asshole, I'll explain it to you. Since you didn't get it the first time I've explained it. I was in a car wreck, a drunk driver collided with the car I was a passenger in head on. My body is messed up and my head is messed up. I have been diagnosed with ptsd, postconcussive syndrome, and depression along with a host of physical body problems. My non-functionality for nearly a year now has devastated my finances and personal life. The distraction of traveling just might be the only form of therapy available to me as I'm on the brink of loosing my health insurance. Never mind that not having commitments and having all that freedom is pretty appealing to someone that feels that life is hitting them from all sides. So, asshole, like many people traveling, it might not be a choice for me it just might be the only option.

I MIGHT have settlement money coming to me. But that is not a guarantee and I have to prepare for worst case scenario. Even if I do get it, I'll need every single penny of that to repair/restart my completely fucked life. So even in traveling I have to go as low cost as possible. If I don't get any settlement money and my head does not fix itself and I stay nonfunctional. I just might have to fly signs and dumpsterdive.

So are you happy asshole ? Now you and the entire fucking world can see my reasons for preparing to be a traveler. I bet it sounds similar to the reasons of others that took up traveling.

 

[IBRRHOBO]

hartage: big difference between rates such as IT/CTI which is computers in the navy and my rate which was IS. not a flag i fly, statement of fact.

all said, you are yet another classic example of why i don't assist greenhorns. there's a reason why even on THIS forum there are private groups such as Waystations and Speak Easy. i suppose you would have those doors thrown wide open as well?

now, others may be afraid to admit it (fear of being banned, etc.) but i am not. your desire to gain something for nothing is the main reason why most riders won't take the time of day to help the younger bunch out here today.

i like the freemasonry comparison; that is what the latin phrase refers to. and hoboing is just that! anyone can make the little roseville to portland run. and there are VERY few threads anywhere on here other than from shoestring, myself, severegout, rise and a couple others which document cross country travel. the reason being is that a fucking idiot won't make it. inner knowledge is key. and in such a small community as rail riding is i will make it my lifelong mission to make sure you never enter it.

as to the rest of the shit: punk rock community, dumpster diving, hitchiking...i could give a rats ass. i don't call shots in any of them. rail riding i do. and it is not quite the 'accepting' world as other places. generally the environment itself weeds out the idiots east of reno. main reason for that is there aren't soup kitchens and squats every 20 feet. and being very frank here if my options are to have a 'humanistic', touchy-feely person in the boxcar w/me when i get off in east st louis or a fucking asshole who would cut a throat w/no more thought than passing salt at the dinner table, i'd opt for the latter. and these are the kind of people who really DO ride east of reno. see, if i'm riding w/the idiot then i 'cosign' the idiot. that means if the idiot fucks up i am just as dead as s/he is.

i have no grudge against you and want that VERY clear. i don't agree w/you wanting RR info past around like the CCG is today. i haven't commented on any other info as i don't give a fuck. i don't seek to change your opinions. they are typical of what i have come to expect amongst new riders.

 

[hartage]

It seems that this thread has degenerated down from its originally intended post. If y'all want to continue to debate the 'do's' and 'do not's' of information, and weather or not it should be made public...etc. Could you please start a new thread for it.

Everything that needs to be said has been said. If you feel the need to keep it here or move the posts to another thread I'm indifferent. I might respond to normal posts but all the heated posts from me ends. I won't respond to heated posts either it has become quite counter productive for me or anybody else.

 

[IBRRHOBO]

:banned::deadhorse:

 

[logan714]

I understand what your saying and appreciate the effort. But how can I not say anything when there is what amounts to ill-will for the evil sin of simply being new ? At one point everyone was new. Now as a community we hold it against others for being where we've all been ? (new) IBRRHOBO accused me of having a humanistic approach. Yeah, he's right I do.

Okay,
I'll try it one more time. Look in my crew of people that I've been haing out with all these years, I'm probably the most mellow. I'm also one to the field medics so maybe that has something to do with it.

WE've seen a shit load of people come and go. Up, down, all around, everywhere. But the actual percentage of people that actually make it and stick around are less than 2 percent.

Also, here's another fun one. 500,000 tons of steal really don't give a fuck about you. ONe fuck up can make it hard on everyone. One idiot not knowing how to cross a string, what to listen for, and where to stand while doing it can get themselves killed in a couple of seconds if they're not paying attention. And what does blood on the track do? It attracts fucking attention. Most of the people I know have more than sufficient amounts of attention paid to them already. As a matter of a fact, sometime the system likes to pay very much special attention to us. EVerybody I know prefers to avoid their special attention free ride in a car, free meals and free bed. Yes, I'd rather walk 50 miles in a snow storm then ride a mile in a cop car.

Thats it

Logan

 

[Beegod Santana]

I'll call a spade a spade. Fine, asshole, I'll explain it to you. Since you didn't get it the first time I've explained it. I was in a car wreck, a drunk driver collided with the car I was a passenger in head on. My body is messed up and my head is messed up. I have been diagnosed with ptsd, postconcussive syndrome, and depression along with a host of physical body problems. My non-functionality for nearly a year now has devastated my finances and personal life. The distraction of traveling just might be the only form of therapy available to me as I'm on the brink of loosing my health insurance. Never mind that not having commitments and having all that freedom is pretty appealing to someone that feels that life is hitting them from all sides. So, asshole, like many people traveling, it might not be a choice for me it just might be the only option.

You're right, I am an asshole, well a masshole actually (413!). I'm also recovering from a nasty, permanately disfiguring accident. My insurance ain't covering shit, my mother was just diagnosed with cancer and I have no job, prospects, place of my own and I can't really travel right now because it's hard enough just to read a screen let alone read a tape measure. So don't look to me for sympathy, we all have enough of our own problems.

I also like the freemasons comparison. Only we're way cooler.

 

[Ravie]

I understand what your saying and appreciate the effort. But how can I not say anything when there is what amounts to ill-will for the evil sin of simply being new ? At one point everyone was new. Now as a community we hold it against others for being where we've all been ? (new) IBRRHOBO accused me of having a humanistic approach. Yeah, he's right I do.

alright. first of all, I think we're all getting tired of this. so here's the skivvy. Yes, we have all been new on here at one point or another. We all looked for knowledge to gain. The difference? YOUR NOT SUPPOSED TO DEMAND KNOWLEDGE. Knowledge is something that is owned by whoever knows it and it is SHARED.

If I'm understanding the main point here, tell me if I'm wrong, is that you wish for the members that have been on here longer to be more open and not be such assholes yes? Well, is it not our freedom to act/teach how we want? sounds a little conflicting to me since you spoke for freedom. I'm not trying to make this an annoyance.

please, everyone needs to remember this is a conversation and not an argument.

You thirst for knowledge yes Hartage? that's great! it's allways welcome here. Where we take a step back and get our panties in a bunch is when someone we dont know and has not spent nearly as much time on here as we have starts off arguing and complaining. And know what? feel lucky people on here are as nice as they are. I've been on forums where if you said some of the things you said, or even way more mild, you would just get told to fuck off in 40+ different ways and banned because the moderator got tired of it. Patience is key here. If you want to know something without people acting "elitist" you need to realise that we are more than happier to hep out, but you need to wait unti your kown a little better and of course, ask politely and remember, you came here looking for us to teach you, as do hundreds of people. we owe nothing, we are basically on here to help others and learn new things ourselves.