After the fall of Capitalism?

[TheUndeadPhoenix]

I think the best form of government would be this: One "supervisory" gov't with no power watching the world and giving updates to the gov't with power, the community/city states. I hate many things from many different governments, but I like others. I like parliamentary socialism the most out of what we have today, but even that sucks ass.

 

[ipoPua]

but then theres still the problem of corruption within the supervisors. who watches the watchers and all that. i really think people need to just stop supporting the corporate war machine and build local infrastructure instead of participating in this big game of working for a company that created/caters to a false need so that you can fulfill that imagined need. we'll end up needing to defend ourselves from them but we have to start somewhere. the revolution needs to be about the land. theyre waging war on it all around the world, and it IS a war. they dont want us to be able to organize into self sustaining cooperatives without being under their thumb.

 

[Yell]

In the end. No matter what system gets built replacing any other system. That system will become corrupt, and replaced by other things. Men are an abomination.

 

[Pheonix]

both phoenixes, like i say the occupy movement isnt the final product. its just a meeting place for different groups to form out of and for people to educate each other. alot of the people at any occupation are control freaks and all other sorts of douchebags, but theyre still important things to be happening. its not about the occupations, its about what the occupations usher in.

I would love to help but only if it will benefit me in some way. but I think regardless of weather the movement is successful or not, I will still be struggling. I still won't be able to find a job regardless of weather there are jobs or not. my problems with finding jobs are no or little work history, tats on hands, no address, no phone number.

I haven't lost faith in the government (cause I never had faith in them to begin with) but due to my experiences in the last 20 years, I've lost my faith in humanity. that's why I'm against any system with a human overlord. absolute power corrupts absolutely. I will not fight just to change from one overlord to another. that's why I'm a confederate let each state clean up their own house. why do we need one great system that forces the states what laws to make, and how to enforce them.

 

[Rancho]

I would love to help but only if it will benefit me in some way. but I think regardless of weather the movement is successful or not, I will still be struggling. I still won't be able to find a job regardless of weather there are jobs or not. my problems with finding jobs are no or little work history, tats on hands, no address, no phone number.

I haven't lost faith in the government (cause I never had faith in them to begin with) but due to my experiences in the last 20 years, I've lost my faith in humanity. that's why I'm against any system with a human overlord. absolute power corrupts absolutely. I will not fight just to change from one overlord to another. that's why I'm a confederate let each state clean up their own house. why do we need one great system that forces the states what laws to make, and how to enforce them.

Because independent states are an antiquated notion. The world is in a frenzy of global communication and acquiring and merging more enterprises. People like the idea of simplicity and the more answers one deity can provide, the more power potential there is.

 

[Redd Capp]

Power abours a vacume. Even in so called anachist collectives (stores,houses,farms) somebody is in charge (usaulay a small group of people who have been there the longest) and if a member starts giving them shit out the door they go. The Local CO-OPs in Brattleboro and Burlington started with good intentions and was run by a bunch of hippies but became corp. like everyone else with a Manager and a Board to the point of fighting with there own Union.

 

[Rancho]

Power abours a vacume. Even in so called anachist collectives (stores,houses,farms) somebody is in charge (usaulay a small group of people who have been there the longest) and if a member starts giving them shit out the door they go. The Local CO-OPs in Brattleboro and Burlington started with good intentions and was run by a bunch of hippies but became corp. like everyone else with a Manager and a Board to the point of fighting with there own Union.

Again only future reiterating my point

 

[Pheonix]

Because independent states are an antiquated notion. The world is in a frenzy of global communication and acquiring and merging more enterprises. People like the idea of simplicity and the more answers one deity can provide, the more power potential there is.

your trying to find a system that will work for everyone and that's impossible. it's also fascist to decide one system to be the best for all. for instance medical weed is greatly supported in CA but OK wants nothing to do with it. how do you justify forcing everyone to obey one deity. what about the people that don't agree with your system are you going to kill them or throw them in jail. it seems to me your proposing a NWO just without the assholes that are their now. how can you be sure the new leaders won't be just as bad or worse.

 

[Rancho]

your trying to find a system that will work for everyone and that's impossible. it's also fascist to decide one system to be the best for all. for instance medical weed is greatly supported in CA but OK wants nothing to do with it. how do you justify forcing everyone to obey one deity. what about the people that don't agree with your system are you going to kill them or throw them in jail. it seems to me your proposing a NWO just without the assholes that are their now. how can you be sure the new leaders won't be just as bad or worse.

Honey the new leaders WILL be worse. I don't really know where you got my explanation of the enivietable as my vote for the new world order but you obviously misinterpreted. Differences on social standpoints mean nothing, they are political red herrings that will be controversial in a society that will soon cease to exist. What really matters is our resources people want to make a difference? It needs to be a grass roots movement. People willing to stop using banks and buying SUVs but that won't happen. I don't want anew world order I don't even like the current one. But I can't help the way the world is headed its got to be a collective movement

 

[Pheonix]

those red herrings (as you put them) will not go away when the government does. would slavery have been one of these red herrings? those social standpoints mean everything. take a look at the civil war no one wanted to fight to bring the union to power. Lincoln finally realized that the only way he can win a war over what political system will be in power, is to change people's view of the war thus the war of political supremacy got a new image and became a war for civil liberties.

 

[Rancho]

those red herrings (as you put them) will not go away when the government does. would slavery have been one of these red herrings? those social standpoints mean everything. take a look at the civil war no one wanted to fight to bring the union to power. Lincoln finally realized that the only way he can win a war over what political system will be in power, is to change people's view of the war thus the war of political supremacy got a new image and became a war for civil liberties.

those red herrings (as you put them) will not go away when the government does. would slavery have been one of these red herrings? those social standpoints mean everything. take a look at the civil war no one wanted to fight to bring the union to power. Lincoln finally realized that the only way he can win a war over what political system will be in power, is to change people's view of the war thus the war of political supremacy got a new image and became a war for civil liberties.

Again you're misinterpreting. Frankly I'm just going to say part of this country's problem is the domestic isolationism. In Europe I can be in an entirely different country within 4 hours. Here you move across regions and you might as well need a passport culturally I'm talking Ina much broader perspective, you know like the rest of the world. There's a reason the the confederate states never caught on it, it's complicated and creates tensions within a nation, that's part of the problem in modern libria.

 

[Pheonix]

Again you're misinterpreting. Frankly I'm just going to say part of this country's problem is the domestic isolationism. In Europe I can be in an entirely different country within 4 hours. Here you move across regions and you might as well need a passport culturally I'm talking Ina much broader perspective, you know like the rest of the world. There's a reason the the confederate states never caught on it, it's complicated and creates tensions within a nation, that's part of the problem in modern libria.

your forgetting the more successful confederacies the UN and the European Union. comparing all systems to the worst government that used that system is moronic.

 

[Rancho]

your forgetting the more successful confederacies the UN and the European Union. comparing all systems to the worst government that used that system is moronic.

And funny you should say its moronic when we are talking about the fall of the capitalist state meaning the us why have history repeat itself? I just don't see the logic is all

 

[Pheonix]

And funny you should say its moronic when we are talking about the fall of the capitalist state meaning the us why have history repeat itself? I just don't see the logic is all

the down fall of american confederacy was not the system it's self, it was slavery. if we went back to confederacy, slavery will still be abolished. the confederacy did and will always obey a central constitution. back then slavery was not in the constitution but now it is. if we went back to confederacy all states will still obey the constitution with clearly states the abolishment of slavery and the only way to change it is with a majority vote in congress (with will never happen)

I don't see anything moronic in thinking what didn't work 200 years ago still won't work today. a lot of people here are communist but I would never tell them that there system won't work due to the actions of Stalin. I would never claim catholicism is wrong due to the actions of bloody mary. I think it's moronic that many english protestants hate catholics due to something horrible that the former queen did in the name of god.

the government that is screwing things up is the Union that won that war. I believe that back then the Union was the better option but now the Union has gotten to big and powerful. most of the problems that arise in a federation do not cause any problems in confederacy (and vice versa) if your waiting to find that one perfect system before you destroy the one that is not working at all, then we are doomed to fail. but if we replace the failing system with one that will work for 10 to 20 years before the flaws start coming out. then we will be better of for 10 to 20 years and after that we can replace the system with a better system and so on and so on.

I would love to see history repeat it's self. I believe we need to get back to the principles set by our founding fathers. I like many of our founding fathers believe the only way we can be free is with an armed revolution every 20 years or so. you'll never find one system that will work forever but finding a system that will work for 20 years is easy and if everyone becomes happy with the new system we can keep it longer if needs be.

 

[Rancho]

the down fall of american confederacy was not the system it's self, it was slavery. if we went back to confederacy, slavery will still be abolished. the confederacy did and will always obey a central constitution. back then slavery was not in the constitution but now it is. if we went back to confederacy all states will still obey the constitution with clearly states the abolishment of slavery and the only way to change it is with a majority vote in congress (with will never happen)

I don't see anything moronic in thinking what didn't work 200 years ago still won't work today. a lot of people here are communist but I would never tell them that there system won't work due to the actions of Stalin. I would never claim catholicism is wrong due to the actions of bloody mary. I think it's moronic that many english protestants hate catholics due to something horrible that the former queen did in the name of god.

the government that is screwing things up is the Union that won that war. I believe that back then the Union was the better option but now the Union has gotten to big and powerful. most of the problems that arise in a federation do not cause any problems in confederacy (and vice versa) if your waiting to find that one perfect system before you destroy the one that is not working at all, then we are doomed to fail. but if we replace the failing system with one that will work for 10 to 20 years before the flaws start coming out. then we will be better of for 10 to 20 years and after that we can replace the system with a better system and so on and so on.

I would love to see history repeat it's self. I believe we need to get back to the principles set by our founding fathers. I like many of our founding fathers believe the only way we can be free is with an armed revolution every 20 years or so. you'll never find one system that will work forever but finding a system that will work for 20 years is easy and if everyone becomes happy with the new system we can keep it longer if needs be.

I gotta say I think it's pretty naive to think our 'founding fathers' weren't as morally corrupt or questionable as the people we see in power now.
And it's also naive to believe that slavey was some put upon notion that destroyed the confederate states when ultimately it was disorganization and a lack of solid infrastructure that was the downfall. Sure things can always be corrected but I still believe its not viable for the current state of affairs. It has nothing to do with the long gone slavery again you misinterpreted.
You make some great points. But I still just don't see a confederate state being the answer I think it encourages conflict and isolationism within one nation which ultimately helps no one.

 

[Deleted member 363]

I don't understand why the majority wants anarchy. If I gave you a one way ticket to Somalia would you go? I highly doubt it. Isn't the goal of anarchy to crash the current form of government, so that a different form of government can be put in place? I mean, shouldn't all the other types of government be getting votes? I voted for republic, which is what the country is intended to be. It is currently more of a oligarchy who are influenced by corporations.

I've mostly been a lurker for years, but I'm honestly a little confused by the STP mentality/attitude when it comes to government and anarchy.

 

[Rancho]

I don't understand why the majority wants anarchy. If I gave you a one way ticket to Somalia would you go? I highly doubt it. Isn't the goal of anarchy to crash the current form of government, so that a different form of government can be put in place? I mean, shouldn't all the other types of government be getting votes?

I feel like a lot of that is just people venting frustrations about the current systems. There's a pseudo notion of peaceful anarchy but I don't think people are self aware enough for that

 

[Pheonix]

I gotta say I think it's pretty naive to think our 'founding fathers' weren't as morally corrupt or questionable as the people we see in power now.
And it's also naive to believe that slavey was some put upon notion that destroyed the confederate states when ultimately it was disorganization and a lack of solid infrastructure that was the downfall. Sure things can always be corrected but I still believe its not viable for the current state of affairs. It has nothing to do with the long gone slavery again you misinterpreted.
You make some great points. But I still just don't see a confederate state being the answer I think it encourages conflict and isolationism within one nation which ultimately helps no one.

our founding fathers weren't nowhere near as corrupt as our presidents today, but they do have the potentual of being corrupt. and that has nothing to do with their political views it's because they were human. I think the reason the founding fathers had better morals then the current politician since our founding fathers were protesters rebelling against an oppressive king. it pisses me off to here you compare our founding fathers to the current idiots when they were in a position closer to that of the protesters. I've been trying to understand your point of view but I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Rancho]

our founding fathers weren't nowhere near as corrupt as our presidents today, but they do have the potentual of being corrupt. and that has nothing to do with their political views it's because they were human. I think the reason the founding fathers had better morals then the current politician since our founding fathers were protesters rebelling against an oppressive king. it pisses me off to here you compare our founding fathers to the current idiots when they were in a position closer to that of the protesters. I've been trying to understand your point of view but I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

They were a bunch of slave owning rich guys who didn't want to pay taxes they did that to serve themselves! Don't get me wrong Thomas Jefferson was a very eloquent man who had some charming innovation but your all or nothing black n white thinking just isn't viable.

 

[Pheonix]

owning slaves was not morally wrong at that time if your gonna analyze historical events and people you have to put it in the content of the times. if the future proves god to not exist will the future people look down on their religiously devoted ansestors for not knowing at the very beginning that they were wrong? how were they to know owning slaves would be wrong in 100 years into the future? what if protesting is considered wrong in 200 years from now? when Hitler got sentenced to 9 years for war crimes how was the judge to know what would happen when Hitler got released? I'm far from all or nothing I'm more then willing to compromise and my political opinions change as I learn more. but for the life of me I can understand your point of view but I respect your right to your own opinion.