- abortion -

[veggieguy12]

I don't understand how everyone in the land of milk and honey sees freedom as their greater individual personal entitlement, rather than their greater responsibility. I say this to both Christians and non-Christians.

Hmm, something tells me you're a "Christian". By looking at your profile info, hypothesis confirmed. I could say much about that, buuuuuut- I won't. Here.
I will just note that having an abortion IS being responsible with an unplanned pregnancy. All religionists' notions of morals aside, when you have a pregnancy suddenly upon you, and you are unprepared or unwilling to deal with maternity, childbirth, and child-rearing, abortion is abso-fucking-lutely being responsible.
Also, I'm not sure what Christianity can teach about freedom; I know MLK and AJ Muste and all sort of people found it really liberating; do I have to mention all those who've found it really oppressive? Not to mention the fact that buying into all the Biblical laws and dogmas on the more conservative end indicates a willingness to forgo liberty rather than embrace it.

At best, abortions are a short term solution to the much greater problem of a society and economy fueled by sex.

NO! At best, abortions are individual women deciding what happens with their bodies, determining what they want and will allow in their lives. Y'know, like my position is, "I'm not going to allow some living thing to grow on me, if I don't want it", or "I'm not going to allow my blood to spill out of a wound, if I don't want to die." Maybe these are decisions to intervene in God's plan, maybe these are inconsiderate of other life forms involved, but they are about my life.

So I get it that you're a Christian. Whatever that means to you, it means some very bad things to me. One of these things is that you might not really understand sciences, among them, biology; perhaps history is an issue, too. (Prove me wrong, please!)

In whatever ways the U.S. economy is fueled by sex, and maybe the society is 'fueled' by sex, our whole species is fueled by sex - it is how you and I got here.
Let's not pretend that our predecessors were just doing their duty as the Lord's servants. They were gettin' it on for the pleasures of the flesh, baby.

I understand that Christians think sex is a dirty, sordid, regrettable experience - and that may very well be what it is for most Christians (and Muslims and Jews and all others who bear the burdens of dogmas) - but it is also a biological thing, something that the god(s) put into all humans, even Muslims and Jews and Christians. Your libido (whether for men or women or both) is something your god gave you- so it's alright!, you don't have to suppress it!

Without question, our media set standards and sell us on crap by using sexuality. And exploiting libido for the sale of pornography/'prostitutes' generates a ton of money.
But we're not sold sex when we don't want it. We want it because it's the way reproduce, and when we procreate our genes spread. Thus our genes push us to fuck.

Furthermore, a scan of various human cultures throughout history will reveal that people have wanted it (and "without consequences") for a very long time, since before capitalism or mass media or the United States began.

I think we're a sex-addicted society, which wants it whenever it can get it, without limits, without consequences.

So, before our society, people weren't trying to fuck? People didn't enjoy sex? Women never tried to not get pregnant as a result of sex? Men never pursued women? Women never wanted to be pursued?
Dude, do you know how ill-informed this sounds?, in both history and biology.

I probably sound like an asshole (and fair enough), but it's like you just don't know anything about other species, let alone our own. Every mammal has a mating season- every single one.
And as soon as our species became aware enough to prevent pregnancies, we started doing just that. Note that we did not stop having sex - we stopped making babies, and birthed by choice. Something wrong with that?
Again, we may be a sex-addicted/fueled society, but it's absolutely essential to realize that humans want sex.

Oh, and that bulge in my pants?, well that ain't the Devil...

 

[madewithpaint]

hahahaha
That is by far the greatest thing I have ever read.
Kudos.

 

[moe]

SEX destroys all!

 

[moe]

arrowInone, thanks for sharing your own personal experiences in your posts.
it really counts to hear from soeone ho have actually dealt with the matter in hands.

but i don't now what else to say.
im pro-choice. fuck who you want, but shit, you know the consequnces and better damn be ready to make that decision. stick to condoms and pills.
you're life is not fucked up when you have that kid in the oven. that's why it's fair to us women to have choices. adoption and abortion.
just don't take it for granted.

 

[Angela]

I think we're a sex-addicted society, which wants it whenever it can get it, without limits, without consequences. Abortions are a short term solution to the much greater problem of a society and economy fueled by sex.

Children should be something that are cherished if people are going to have them at all, not a consequence. I've found that most people that make the argument that you do are not concerned at all with the quality of the lives involved but instead are more interested in essentially punishing people for sex and too often punishing specifically women for sex. People need to keep their vindictive morals off of other people's bodies and lives! Thanks veggieguy for the longer winded version of this sentiment, I totally agree.

 

[RnJ]

I'll admit that my worldview effects my view on abortion. Doesn't everyone's? So yes, my faith does play into my view.

My interests are not in punishing women, but in not killing babies. I do not think the issue is black and white at all, and often wonder how I'd feel if I had been a part of the unplanned pregnancy. But I have decided that if my interests are in the child, and not in burdening the mother intentionally, a better option is to put the child in a better home. Also, I do not think it is a political issue. I'd rather people had complete freedom, and make better choices (such as giving a baby up for adoption). I do not think that control has ever gone over well with people.

This thread was a bit simple with everyone being pro-choice, and just thought I'd offer my view. I'm hoping nobody got too flaming mad at me for challenging their thoughts, especially since it seems like I didn't.

 

[rellydelly890]

I just think it's interesting that the people who argue that life is too precious to just abort are the same people that allow the death penalty and the 323432534535443 wars happening all over the world. But if every person on earth didn't have a baby for like 5 years or something, population density would seriously not even exist.

 

[RnJ]

It was estimated in 2008 that the TFR is 1.57 children born per woman in Canada. It needs to be roughly 2.1 for us to maintain our population. If it wasn't for immigrants, our population would be declining more rapidly.

 

[Dameon]

Really, I think it's unfair to say mens' lives aren't fucked up by having a kid. Sure, a guy can up and run, and have no involvement with the child. But then, so can a woman, it's called giving the child up for adoption. In a way, it's even worse for a guy, because giving your kid up is free. Guys have to pay child support. If a guy is responsible, then he has to give up a lot to take care of that child, just like the woman does. Lots of guys have to drop out of college/school and work 12 hours a day of hard labor to make sure their child is taken care of, when maybe they could have had a good career if they'd gotten to finish school.

Personally, it makes me mad when people act like it affects the woman that much more than the guy. Granted, the woman has to carry a child for 9 months, and then go through birth, but you know what? The guy has to deal with a crazy creature for those 9 months, and do you know how traumatizing it is to watch a baby come out of the place where you've been putting your penis? Seriously?

I kid, I kid.

 

[wartomods]

Talking about this, i think parents should not be obligated to pay child support.

 

[veggieguy12]

It was estimated in 2008 that the TFR is 1.57 children born per woman in Canada. It needs to be roughly 2.1 for us to maintain our population. If it wasn't for immigrants, our population would be declining more rapidly.

Um... so? A human-population drop will happen, it's just inevitable. Neither our gods nor our sciences/intelligence will stop that. The sooner it happens - and the more voluntarily - the easier it will be. You're not here saying that you want the population to maintain or even grow, are you?

I just think it's interesting that the people who argue that life is too precious to just abort are the same people that allow the death penalty and the 323432534535443 wars happening all over the world.

Well, not all of them. Just the hypocrites, who are many, for sure...

 

[Mouse]

I really think that some more important issues aren't getting discussed about abortion any longer.

=morality.. yeah.. we got that covered. no one agrees. end of story.
=rights and respect.. yeah... "woman's rights", fuck the dad, general idea. not right in the least, but in general that's what people think.
=personal... it doesn't matter if you would or wouldn't, so stop trying to justify yourself. you personal problems aren't the issue.

but what about access? yes, it's legal still.. but do you know where to go? not as easy to find as you'd think. how accessible is it in most areas? some places it's legal but you have to go 100 miles to get to a clinic. Are there any funds to help you pay for it? not really. Why the hell wont health insurance cover any costs? because that's bullshit.

there are a lot of things that get skipped when you only pay attention to the hot button issues. Buzz topics only distract from the real problems.

step one in keeping abortion legal is truely educating the public, making it more accessable and in turn less stigmatized, and helping people who are struggling to get by pay for a much needed procedure to help them continue working towards their goals to one day have AND support a family.

"so kids... when a man and a woman really love eachother, they shack up together now and then. Maybe they eventually move in together. And they have some lovely mutual mind blowing sex and take steps to prevent getting knocked up. But one day they fail. Now they are left with a choice, luckily a legal one for the moment. Shall they keep it or not? Who do they call? Who can they even turn to that will help them get factual unbiased information? What if they let it slip to the wrong person and that person scorns them and makes them feel like pieces of shit? What if after all this struggle they come to find out it's going to cost their minimum wage earning asses 400 bucks to get this done? And what if after all this talk about how PC and great legal abortion is and how it's every womans right and it shouldn't hold you down or make you misserable tunr out to be a bunch of bullshit because there really are no systems in place where they live that will give them the support and assitance they need?..."

tell that story to you kids from now on.

 

[veggieguy12]

step one in keeping abortion legal is truely educating the public, making it more accessable and in turn less stigmatized...

documentary: I Had an Abortion
I have this on DVD back in FL; willing to mail a copy to anyone when I get back within a couple months. Holla.

 

[Angela]

It was estimated in 2008 that the TFR is 1.57 children born per woman in Canada. It needs to be roughly 2.1 for us to maintain our population. If it wasn't for immigrants, our population would be declining more rapidly.

Everyone that's not First Nations is an immigrant in Canada just like in the states, some just came more recently than others. If Canada would like to maintain or increase it's population I'm sure there's lots of folks in many countries who would love to become Canadian.

 

[Matt Derrick]

i wasn't looking forward to this thread, but man it really sucked me in. mouse, you're right on, we should hear some more on the points you listed. anyone want to voice their opinions on those?

 

[Mouse]

thank you! people always get wrapped up in the "would I? should I?" shit and forget that hey.. it's legal, doesn't matter if you would... but how could you if needed? how will you pay for it? why doesn't anyone actually help?

when I had to go through it I was so lost. I didn't know who to call.. I definitly didn't know how I was going to get the money. When life is just going by you kinda think there's gotta be something out there that will take care of me in the event I'll need to do this abortion thing but when it comes down to it you only have right wing religous people trying to talk you out of it and abrupt matter of fact phone converstations with planned parenthood that don't tell you much of shit.

 

[rickysymo]

Abortion is a big no! No! For me, why will take the pleasure in making a baby when you don’t want them to be born in this planet? Be a responsible adult; don’t sow life when practically you don’t want to reap. :scared:

 

[macks]

i think you're missing something here - you can be responsible and have things still go wrong. short of abstinence which veggieguy talked about earlier the question isn't whether you're having sex or not but what to do if/when birth control fails to work 100%

 

[Monkeywrench]

"Abolition of a woman's right to abortion, when and if she wants it, amounts to compulsory maternity: a form of rape by the State." - Edward Abbey

 

[steelcitybrew]

I prefer it