Dressing "Slutty" Will Not Get You Raped

[creature]

Ok..
I am already missing my front teeth, so I don't have much to loose..

I'm going to dig down, here, & get to the core:

Desire & Aesthetics..

First off, *generally*, specieal (as in species) beauty is a strictrly subjective perceptive.

I have no idea what a crab desires in a mate, nor a mountain lion, nor anything, really, than the human primate.
& even there, there is a lot of shit any of us could wonder "WTF are *they* thinking???"

So also, generally, it is the case, beyond simple biological gender attraction, that human patriarchy creates presures, in some cases absolute, upon females to express their biological aesthetics (i.e., sense of attractiveness) within social terms in which they are not given determitive equity.

This is especially true when female sexuality is commodified.

"Sex sells" & all that shit.
If you think it's ok for sex to be reduced to quid pro quo, you are in for some fucked up shit, & I'll get to that in a few moments, if I don't blow myself up, first..

Patriarchy *is* the comidification of gender.

Us guys on here, & most decent, equitable, reasonable guys everywhere in the USA & possibly the world, ARE AS CONFUSED AS SHIT as to how we are to respond to the consequential adaptation (NOT 'adoption') by females of the very parameters of oppression which are enforced upon them & which they must coopt in order to present that 'gender aesthetic' in such a way that projects not gender subjugation, but individual self-love & assertiveness, as well as inter-gender hope (i.e. both spiritual and physical attractiveness, availability, etc.etc.etc.)

I bet girls are just as confused as guys, and all I'm going to say (as an aside) is that when guys start talking about what they think women are *saying*, rather than just *being* women, you might as well stick golf balls in their mouths..

Women do not need to make a justification for being women.

They also have a responsibility (yes, responsibility, and this is where all the thoughtless idiocy can chime right the fuck in), a *responsibility* to be carefull of their fucking power.

Men & women, both: be kind to someone you may find unattractive, but don't just fucking flirt with them because you like flirting.

Don't fucking flirt in such a way as to suggest availability, when you *know* you are not, just because you get off on it, or need the rush, or ASSUME that other people know you are 'just' flirting.

People do not need people who think that if they are not being explicit they are not held to a basic standard of honesty.
That is how politicians opperste, and if your sexuality functions on *that* level, you just need to leave the fucking planet.

Male & female players, alike.

So back to golf balls..

No guy who has posted on here, with the exception of chicken shit, has approached the issue in a vacuum.
& as much as it may seem, to some, that the OP was stating prejudicial content, I really believe he was just asking for clarification on how to appreciate and protect our sisters (insert 1/2 dozen golf balls).

Personally?
I would love if we could just walk around naked, or in a sheet, & fuck the constraints of reactionary styles & other modifications.

But I don't understand stuff, much less control it, so it isn't up to me to judge

Now, I've said nothing unreasonable or thoughtless here.

Just because we're rough & tumble doesn't mean we have carte blanche to start telling each other to fuck off.

Sometimes it's deserved, but generally we talk off the cuff & in first drafts, and THAT is a sign of trust & community.

Nobody here wants to continue any kind of victimization, and not a single one if us is perfect in our logic or our language.

fucking *none* of us.

It is destructive to define value by destruction.
It establishes, too early, the need for defensive argument, and is an inherent aside from discussing the subjects at hand.

So in as much as we are able, let's generally try to assume the best about each other & our intent, and see where commonalities can be found, & work from there.

As different as we are, we are all a single army, in a way.
Any of us who mean anything, truthfully, are looking for a sort of minimalism.

Our work is to take from each other what is of value, & build with it.

Our brains & our words are not a cant of starbucks or mcdonalds or fucking walmart, and we have all suffered for our ideas & the way we express them.

so *that* being said, my basic advive, as a general guideline, is "be modest".

This is *advice* for genesl conduct, and not "blaming the victim ", because they weren't modest, nor am I stating a " reap & sow" syllogism.

I personally do not like immodest people, in general.
I do not like those given to constantly needing to make statements, show their beauty or their wealth, who have a need to be fauned upon, who are braggarts, who cause intentional discomfort, are bullies, or are generaly vain.

That being said, it is probably best to keep the company of those whom are modest, because modesty not only both requires and producrd a bit of discipline, it also produces wisdom, and when you have the company of those whom are both disciplined and wise, you are probably also in the safest (and most protective) social environment that can be striven for.

It is nice to trust universally, and to hope that one is not misunderstood, but western culture at large is one of exploitation, and is generally even far more unsafe if we are not aware of our vulnerabilities.

It may not have been stated with as much perfection as some might like, but I think the core of the original post was the admonishment to "be carefull"...

 

[QueerCoyote]

*reads creatures reply*
...
*reads again*
*scratches head, sips some tea, thinks*
*reads a third time*

I'm still not sure completely what you said. The only thing that made sense to me was your part on not assuming the worst of each other, regardless of how things are worded.

Some questions:
Why was flirting brought up and what is the relevancy?

What does men responding to female aesthetics have to do with rape culture aside from the mention of "clothing does not equal consent" in the OP?

What does modesty have to do with the conversation? Was this portion in response to coywolf talking about Zaphod, or is this in relationship to slut-shaming and not rape? Or possibly the fact that men often use the way women dress to excuse assaulting them?

What does beauty have to do with any of it? Particularly in other species?

 

[Odin]

*reads creatures reply*
...
*reads again*
*scratches head, sips some tea, thinks*
*reads a third time*

I'm still not sure completely what you said. The only thing that made sense to me was your part on not assuming the worst of each other, regardless of how things are worded.

Some questions:
Why was flirting brought up and what is the relevancy?

What does men responding to female aesthetics have to do with rape culture aside from the mention of "clothing does not equal consent" in the OP?

What does modesty have to do with the conversation? Was this portion in response to coywolf talking about Zaphod, or is this in relationship to slut-shaming and not rape? Or possibly the fact that men often use the way women dress to excuse assaulting them?

What does beauty have to do with any of it? Particularly in other species?

wow your very antithetical... bravo tavo... i try to be... I suppose. no sarcasim...ssss hhh coool,

i try to read creaturelike a mythical tablet from days of dut n yor.,

 

[QueerCoyote]

wow your very antithetical... bravo tavo... i try to be... I suppose. no sarcasim...ssss hhh coool,

i try to read creaturelike a mythical tablet from days of dut n yor.,

I'm gonna need to finish at least triple the amount of wine I've currently consumed to aquire your ability to read creature ::drinkingbuddy::

 

[creature]

Sake'... try Sake'...

 

[RamblingRiverBear]

when it's 90 some degrees and I'm walking down the highway with my pack and banjo I'm going to wear shorts and probably a bikini top. fuck off

 

[creature]

So..
The point of this thread is to be mean to each other & criticize each other, instead of trying to figure out what might be meant, then you are being just as assaultive as any physical attack, including the basic, fucked up power fixation of predation.

You aren't making any points, aren't answering any issues, and sure as fuck aren't being instructive in your critiques.

If that's all your fucking anarchy can offer, you need to shove it up your ass & go shit it somewhere else, since that appears to be language you understand. Otherwise you might defer to something more thoughtful.

I tried to be humorous, because as I have heard it used & as it has been explained to me by girls whom have said it, "dressing slutty" is something done at the level of sexual assertiveness, or method of fashion to convey an aesthetic &/or sexual message.

I will go toe to toe with you on this, because 'slutty' as a descriptior for a style or intention of dress is *common* in american dialogue.

Now, maybe I misunderstood, but my take,as noted, is that "dressing slutty" is intentional.
& that's fucking fine.
not my style, not what I look for & if commonly done, doesn't convey to me that a woman understands just how important and valuable her own sexuality is.

But.. fine.. sleep in whatever beds comfort you.

NOT MY FUCKING CALL.
You. YOUR call.

I prefer modesty, but as I said, too, I think being able to walk naked, freely, should be unimpeded.
so.. shorts & a cut tank top are no exception to the point that your dress should not be construed as actual intent of any kind.

But just like people who wear paramilitary clothing (myself included), I fucking *understand* that they might think I'm making an ideological statement, rather than digging on durability and functionality.

Hence I avoid wearing black, for instance, or signs of physical power, or other stuff that carries the potential to be interpreted as unaimed conflict.

But..

You know what?
You show me you deserve reasonable dialogue, and I'll try to present it.
Otherwise I have a shitload of better things to do with my phone's fucking battery than listen to a bunch of immature and antagonistic whining..

 

[Zaphod]

I've actually made quite a few points over the course of this thread that no one has responded to, sooo?

 

[Zaphod]

Also, you literally ignored all of Queer Coyote's questions even though that was the only thing directed at you?

 

[Coywolf]

@creature

He is totally right. He has made some really good points. Like this one....

Zaphod said:

wow, a man posts some victim blaming bullshit while simultaneously claiming it's not victim-blaming. You can fuck right off

This one....

Zaphod said:

Yeah, which has nothing to do with how they dress and everything to do with how men are trash[/QUOTE]

This one is pretty good...

Zaphod said:

Oh, so you DO think it's women's fault that they get raped? Yeah, that's a totally okay opinion to have. Let me say it again for those of us who have burned too many holes in their brains: NO ONE DESERVES TO BE RAPED (regardless of clothing, behavior, socio-economic status, etc)

Dear cis men:

Femme people don't need to be told to protect themselves. Living under patriarchy means that most women can't go out in the world without having to worry about what men will do to them. However, men do need to be told about consent and what constitutes assault cause, by and large, they are the ones perpetrating assault. So, maybe instead of spending your time and energy reminding women they're second class citizens, you should be talking about how to end rape culture and calling out your bros on their misogynist bullshit that perpetuates said culture.

Annnnnnnd this one....

Zaphod said:

Well, you're definitely a misogynist. I've not seen you be racist or fascist though, nor did I say so, but you can go ahead and put those words in my mouth, but I don't think they'll stick

Like I told that other person: feel free to hmu when you're ready to do better.

Im glad that we can all agree that sexual assualt, rape, slut shaming, and sexism are horrible things in this world that need to be eradicated, and it is going to take everyone to act to be able to be acheived.

 

[benton]

No human should ever be forced to do something they don't want to do.

If one states 'no woman should be forced' it implies that it may be okay to force a man, or that it is somehow a less serious transgression if it happens to a male.

I'm a man and I've been sexually harassed numerous times and even groped.

Under a system of equality, it is just as "bad" when it happens to me as it is when it happens to a female.

 

[Zaphod]

oh hey look, more men derailling the discussion to be like "but MEN too though!" (wanna throw in some "all lives matter" while you're at it?)

Coywolf literally comes to troll this thread, rage quits on several posts when he doesn't have anything to actually contribute, only to come back again and again. LOL

 

[QueerCoyote]

No human should ever be forced to do something they don't want to do.

If one states 'no woman should be forced' it implies that it may be okay to force a man, or that it is somehow a less serious transgression if it happens to a male.

I'm a man and I've been sexually harassed numerous times and even groped.

Under a system of equality, it is just as "bad" when it happens to me as it is when it happens to a female.

But MeN arE raPEd tOO So WHy aRe wE TAlkinG abOuT woMEn

 

[deleted user]

THE REAL POINT!!

Im glad that we can all agree that sexual assualt, rape, slut shaming, and sexism are horrible things in this world that need to be eradicated, and it is going to take everyone to act to be able to be acheived.

IS this not the real point.
So i tried deleting myself but that takes weeks sooo let me get banned.......

wow this thread its ez to see some of you are trolling and just string up shit or that some are bleeding heart, participation awarded, everyone is special, the world owes me, little shitheads, i bet even money you have never known rape or abuse or the feeling of being powerless while another human hurts you or takes advantage of you taking that which is precious to you some strangers doing this or even worse trusted family and friends .you brush off my past as a victim because it dosent support you point of view. or because i just dont matter to you as a human. i can only offer hindsight advice sorry. Question is anyone trying to help those of us with other perspectives understand a different point of view or is it just a bunch of shaming and shit storming i feel like this tread has killed a whole years worth of feelings of goodness i had about stp. it kept me up at night i have been asking friends and family about it idont know it got under my skin . just cause im a male doesnt make me a monster . i dont hate. i behave the best i can soo what am i to do ????

 

[Coywolf]

it just a bunch of shaming and shit storming i feel like this tread has killed a whole years worth of feelings of goodness i had about stp. it kept me up at night i have been asking friends and family about it idont know it got under my skin

Im beginning to wonder if this post's intention was purely a social experiement, honestly.

What is the point of replying to the OP's original message (now) if there has been no response by the OP? We havent heard from @AlwaysLost since the original post.

@strangeandsolo i do agree with this post getting under the skin, I havent seen such division and accusations among members since:

https://squattheplanet.com/threads/why-was-rob-nothing-banned-and-other-musings.32293/

It makes me sad that instead of coming away with knowledge, and a changed view on an important topic, some are coming away with a new label, and a bad taste in their mouths about an otherwise welcoming group of people.

 

[Beegod Santana]

"And as the maggots devoured the rotting corpse of civil conversation they slowly realized the only thing uglier than the corpse, was themselves."

 

[AlwaysLost]

Sorry life got a little busy and that post got a lot of convuluted so I will do a more concise thing of my views.

1. It is never the victims fault if they get raped. But our choices can increase and decrease the likelihood of being raped/murdered/stolen from. Sometimes however unfortunately there is a 0% chance of avoiding it.

Some days every choice you make could unfortunately lead to your death. If a nuclear bomb goes off in your city it doesnt matter whether you go right or left out the door that morning.

My best friend was raped because she took an opened drink from a coworker she went out on a date with. Was it her fault of course not. But never take drinks from anyone in a bar ever especially on the first date. conversely my male friend got roofied in North Hollywood.

2. RAPISTS DO NOT GIVE A SHIT WHAT YOU ARE WEARING. I am 100% anti rape. I have taught self defense classes for women. But this clothing does not = consent movement is ridiculous.

If clothing had any correlation to rape then Nude beaches would be giant rape rallys.

RAPISTS RAPE BECAUSE THEY ARE RAPISTS.

3. The only thing provacative clothing will do is maybe bring more attention to you. But a normal nonsexually deviant man will never rape you, because you have chosen to dress a certain way.

4. People will percieve you the way you present yourself. You dont get to create a BS movement to exempt yourself from this.

Great discussion guys I am sorry I made anyone feel like I thought rape was okay or in any way the victims fault. Its not.

 

[Zaphod]

When you say "no one deserves to be raped" but then qualify it with "but the way you dress effects how people treat you" is contradictory at best and victim blaming at worst.

How is the idea that clothing isn't consent even a controversy? Of course clothing doesn't equal consent!

Also, you're victim blaming your friend for getting date raped, so maybe cut that shit out too.

There's a reason very few women have replied to this thread; it's because y'all have made it an incredibly unsafe space with your victim blaming and otherwise rape culture-excusing toxic masculine behavior

 

[salxtina]

Lost, at this point I can basically believe you wrote this with good intention and a lot of confusion, and not with the same intent as people who jumped on to engage in sexist/homophobic trolling. (whom there are several of!)

I can... kind of understand (?) how you might read the message "clothing is not consent" as "perpetrators are choosing women to attack based on how they dress, we need to defend/speak up for women who are being targeted for how they dress." And you might object that that's a ridiculous message because perpetrators don't target victims based on clothing.
That's not the message.

Now you seem to say that men won't violently attack women, but will maybe (it's vague) stare at them or think of them as unprofessional, based on their appearance. The thing is that this attention and these assumptions, in this culture, also include assuming who women choose to have sex with and seeing women as objects and as lying / not having boundaries that matter. One scumbag probably won't assault a woman *because of her clothing* per se, but dozens of people will say a woman is lying or had no right to refuse, *because of this same thing.*
Women have had to band together to fight this attitude in bosses, lawyers, juries, their families even, to get recognized that it even was a violent crime that rapists committed and not just a natural result of their bodies being too visible. That's the message.

Anyway this thread is a mess because a string of people decided it was a good platform for their sexist and homophobic bullshit. Including one man who several stp members witnessed assault an unconscious woman! So that's the kind of crowd this draws apparently.

 

[QueerCoyote]

2. RAPISTS DO NOT GIVE A SHIT WHAT YOU ARE WEARING. I am 100% anti rape. I have taught self defense classes for women. But this clothing does not = consent movement is ridiculous.

If clothing had any correlation to rape then Nude beaches would be giant rape rallys.

RAPISTS RAPE BECAUSE THEY ARE RAPISTS.

3. The only thing provacative clothing will do is maybe bring more attention to you. But a normal nonsexually deviant man will never rape you, because you have chosen to dress a certain way.

4. People will percieve you the way you present yourself. You dont get to create a BS movement to exempt yourself from this.

Great discussion guys I am sorry I made anyone feel like I thought rape was okay or in any way the victims fault. Its not.

People who commit sexual assault might not care what you are wearing, but they will 100% use it to defend and excuse their actions.

Not addressing this, the fact that men use women's apparel to justify rape **even though it did not cause the rape**, is plain stupid. What's stupider is saying it's a bullshit movement when it was literally made to hold men accountable for assaulting women and justifying it.

You want to help stop rape, don't make fun of a movement that is literally calling men out on using clothing to justify assault. It doesn't matter if you think rape is wrong or not someone's fault if you're working against movements that aim to stop the justification of sexual assault.

As an aside, I'm pretty sure every woman I know would say you can't be anti-assault if you're against anti-assault movements and that this viewpoint would make them intensely uncomfortable. It makes me uncomfortable, pretty dang sure it makes @salxtina uncomfortable, AND a few of the men here. Consider why your viewpoint might make us feel uncomfortable/unsafe. Being against rape is not a free pass to ridicule anti-assault movements led primarily by women who have been assaulted.

"4. People will percieve you the way you present yourself. You dont get to create a BS movement to exempt yourself from this."

This BS movement has nothing to do with how someone presents themselves and EVERYTHING to do with men using scandalous clothing as an excuse for assault.

"Look at her clothing, if she didn't want it she wouldn't have dressed like that."

"How could I be expected to not touch her when she walked in front of me looking like that? She was asking for it."

It is NOT "I should be able to dress like a slut whenever, wherever I want and not be treated any differently."

The bullshit is in your argument, not in the clothing is not consent movement.