- abortion -

[JahDucky]

Well. lets see. My views on abortion...never been asked this before.

I dont look down on women who consider abortion an alternative(unless its becoming a habitual thing). Weather a woman has the baby or not there are lifelong dealys that she has to live with for the rest of her life pro and con. If she aborts she doesnt have to raise a child and can go about her regular business but its not unheard of for the woman to have nightmares of what could have been for the rest of their lives. One of my buddies is glad that she aborted to a point because she was drinking heavily and doing drugs(she didnt know she was pregnant). she would have had one hell of a time raising a child with so many medical issues, but she has terrible dreams where she sees baby bits. thats no bueno.
As for me being a mother i have the upside of a wonderful little boy who looks like a cupie doll and is as sweet as you would imagine one to be if it were alive and i get to watch him grow old, but on the downside i am going to have to learn how to have responsible fun and none of this going off and doing crazy shit spurr of the moment.

I couldnt possible imagine abortion esspecially after having my son...Its exciting to see what those little microbs can turn into after having processed for nine months. and watching them grow after that. I wouldnt bring it up as an option to a friend either(its not my place) but i will support a friend in their decision if they come to me saying that abortions seems to be the way.

Something for everyone to keep in mind. Sex is a means to make babies....and practice makes perfect. Some of us flunk out and some of us ace it...I know I did.

But yes it should still remain an option for a multitude of reasons. I couldnt say someone is wrong in their reasoning....Its all on them

 

[Rash L]

thankfully I havent had any regrets or nightmares since my abortion, but it probably helps that the pregnancy turned out to not be viable... I do know that in my circumstances that I would have gone through with it no matter what, do mostly to the possible birth defects that would have arose... but I really dont understand why women would choose to repeatedly get abortions instead of just getting on birth control -- that scraping shit HURTS!!!

 

[JahDucky]

thankfully I havent had any regrets or nightmares since my abortion, but it probably helps that the pregnancy turned out to not be viable... I do know that in my circumstances that I would have gone through with it no matter what, do mostly to the possible birth defects that would have arose... but I really dont understand why women would choose to repeatedly get abortions instead of just getting on birth control -- that scraping shit HURTS!!!

From what I have heard from women who get an abortion its one of the most painful things one can go through. I will just assume its more painful than childbirth(I enjoyed every second of the child birthing pains) I think that has more to do with excitement though.

 

[smellsea]

ah my best friend from this summer is pregnant. i asked her if she was going to suck that shit out, and i think it might of offended her. i don't understand why, she is living under a fucking bridge.
but yeah, men have no place even thinking about having a say.
personally, children make me ill and give me a headache, but hell if you like 'em, and can take care of them, then keep 'em. simple as that.
this is a little off topic but i love the fuckers that are pro-capital punishment and pro-life. dickhedzzz.

 

[christianarchy]

I am pro-life. Sorry to fit in with the Christian stereotype on that, I normally don't.
My sister told me about some videos of an abortion on ultrasound. I've seen a couple in which the fetus is clearly avoiding the suction tube thing, but don't think I've yet seen the one my sister mentioned, which she made out to be quite graphic. If anyone finds it, let me know, thinking about it makes me feel sick but I want to see it. PM me if you want me to link you to some of these videos. I'm not posting them here because I don't agree with the organization a ton, I just value the video for it's factual content.

I'm sorry that men are using the abortion issue as a tool to gain power.

I understand that women have a right to their own body. Completely. I completely agree with that. I just think a child is different than a wart, you know? I think a fetus is a separate body in the woman's body. I guess I feel this way because nothing incredibly magical happens upon birth (on a scientific level, I'm sure it's an emotional experience for women). I mean, the child simply switches from its mother's oxygen supply to its own, and stops taking in nutrients from the mother through the umbelical cord. I mean it's fascinating, but this process doesn't seem like coming to life to me, it's simply a change. So, I basically feel like life begins quite awhile before that, I suppose at conception.

Also, I feel obligated to point out inconsistencies with the religious right's morals.

"Pro-life means pro-war and in the NRA" - this is basically true, good insight whoever pointed that out. That makes no fucking sense. Shows clear rascism in my opinion, valuing the life of a fetus but not of adults, children, and fetuses (seeing how the US has probably bombed a few pregnant women before) of a different culture. Again, no fucking sense.

Hatred towards women who have had an abortion - another awful thing. Jesus preached forgiveness, seems like many Christians have forgotten that. I forget it too sometimes, though. And I think Christ taught that because hating the opposition doesn't do a fucking thing for your cause. It makes tensions worse, in fact.
I'm sorry that we do that to you, women.

Also, I'm sorry that Christians are calling you murderers but so few Christians are opening up their homes to unwanted kids. Not very logical. I'm sorry that some of us blame you for not raising your kid when you have no means to raise a kid, and we keep our three story houses locked tight and don't consider helping out the children in need of a home. This is a terribly sad inconsistency I've seen in the church and in myself. I guess it's easier to blame someone for getting pregnant while being poor and not having the means to raise a kid when you have enough resources to raise four. I'm sorry we do that.

I do feel like vegetarians should consider the side of pro-lifers. A fetus seems to show as many life-bearing signs as many animals. I'm sorry that Christians justify slaughterhouses while hating people who have had abortions.

I have to be honest, I'm surprised that more church people are pro-life than members of the anarchist, pacifist, or similar communities. I mean seriously, since when did Christians start caring about how people are treated?

I know criticism is coming, and I'm alright with that, but I feel like it's important you realize how sad it makes me to see such inconsistencies in American Christianity. We have been very bad examples to you all. I, personally, am very sorry.

-Christopher

 

[veggieguy12]

...I'm surprised that more church people are pro-life than members of the anarchist, pacifist, or similar communities. I mean seriously, since when did Christians start caring about how people are treated?

Since when did pacifists, anarchists, or "similar communities" want to enforce a preventive ban of medical options against women? And how would they do that?

Am I the only one who distinguishes the people (women) who don't choose to abort a pregnancy from the "Pro-Life" movement (women and many men) that wants to legislate every woman's fate to be strictly baby-makers?
It seems very clear to me that there is a very obvious difference between women (and men like christianarchy) who make their own decisions about personal matters vs. a movement of people who seek to legislate what everyone must or mustn't do - and consequently what punishments will fall on those who don't obey their mandates.

 

[veggieguy12]

And seriously, dude, think about it: Essentially, you're saying that women who get a pregnancy should just bear it out, that they should forgo any choosing of what happens to them after conception, and simply be a carrier and birther. That's something you (and I) will never have to suffer, but how can you seriously say that this is the status women should accept?
Meanwhile, your God is aborting millions every year (and thank god!, or how much more overpopulated we'd already be), and worse, letting fully-born children and adults die (at best He's sitting by allowing it, at worst He's creating typhoons and earthquakes, maybe even murderers).

 

[christianarchy]

And seriously, dude, think about it: Essentially, you're saying that women who get a pregnancy should just bear it out, that they should forgo any choosing of what happens to them after conception, and simply be a carrier and birther. That's something you (and I) will never have to suffer, but how can you seriously say that this is the status women should accept?
Meanwhile, your God is aborting millions every year (and thank god!, or how much more overpopulated we'd already be), and worse, letting fully-born children and adults die (at best He's sitting by allowing it, at worst He's creating typhoons and earthquakes, maybe even murderers).

This is probably the main reason most people can't grasp the God figure. and it's really hard for me too. The other day I read something cool though. This Christian told his nonreligious friend that he would be too scared to ask God "why are you allowing soo much suffering in the world?" When his friend asked why, he replied "I'd be afraid that God would ask me the same question."

I don't know if that has any level of profoundness to you, but it does me.
I got a busy day today, but I'd like to take time to respond to your other post soon.

take care,
-Christopher

 

[veggieguy12]

This Christian told his nonreligious friend that he would be too scared to ask God "why are you allowing soo much suffering in the world?" When his friend asked why, he replied "I'd be afraid that God would ask me the same question."
I don't know if that has any level of profoundness to you, but it does me.

Ah, it just seems like rhetoric, sadly. It does sound good, but that's all.
Honestly, not to be patronizing, but I feel it's one of those things that sounded so good and inspired me to pacifism for a while, but it really doesn't stand to critique.
I mean, the power differential between an all-powerful, omniscient God and mortal human worshipper is almost indescribable. Y'know, if God were to ask that of me, I would have a tough time holding back on a bitter, contemptuous answer.

Imagine asking Romeo Dallaire why he allowed the butchering in Rwanda to continue, and he just turns it back on you, a simple Rwandan taxi driver. "Uh, well, Sir, for starters I'm not a fucking UN General, I don't have a flak jacket or automatic rifle, or, uh, a fucking army! And I know how to drive around the city efficiently, not direct troops to repel an attack." Do you see my point?

It's not on you or me to stop massacres or earthquakes, and it might not be on God either, but certainly He is in a position where the question of "Why allow it?" is fairly asked of Him, and we are clearly not in His position.

 

[bote]

Veg: off-topic, but the consensus on Dallaire is that he tried very hard to prevent the Rwandan genocide but was unable to, because the international community widely refused to ackownledge what was happening (and wanted to sell weapons).
If you read the Randa section in the link you provided, I think this is the story it tells.

 

[veggieguy12]

Oh, Bote, dude: I was just trying to point out that there are empowered people and people with less ability to impact a situation. Saving the world is less on any one human than it is on the God of all creation.
And I believe Dallaire had his orders and couldn't get approval to do more than guard the base and allow it to be a refuge for fleeing Tutsis. I'm not dumping on him, just making a point; he would never have asked a cabdriver to defend the country while sitting idly by himself.

 

[veggieguy12]

This thread could use a lil' levity. From 1996, I believe:

& from 1993:

 

[bfalk420]

inspired by the thread "who's having kids?"...
Beyond religious moralism imposed by dogmatic nutcases, i don't see why it's such a taboo or a moral controversy. Nobody chastises or demonizes someone for having anything removed from their body, but assholes protest and slander and guilt & shame women who get abortions, and the more extreme end of this anti-choice position advocates killing abortion providers. What the fuck?

I understand someone not wanting to talk about their medical/body issues, but as much as someone can talk about any procedure or treatment, i think abortion ought to be as on-the-table and without question.
And i might agree that there's some life to what would, perhaps, eventually be born as a human baby. But there's also life to a sixth finger on a hand, or tumor growing in the brain, or the pancreas whose purpose in the body is not fully understood - yet nobody seems to have any qualms about removing these things.

So, to close this rant, i think that it's nobody else's fucking business what a woman does with her body, and i'm curious what other stp'ers think about this controversial topic.
(and if you take offense that i referred to so-called 'pro-life' protesters as "assholes", chances are good that you qualify as a self-righteous, judgmental, dogmatic asshole.)

i agree!

 

[christianarchy]

Since when did pacifists, anarchists, or "similar communities" want to enforce a preventive ban of medical options against women? And how would they do that?

Simply pointing out that, as Carlin (who's pretty funny and makes some good points) says, it's strange that people supporting war are the "pro-life" ones. I really like what he said about how conserveratives don't give a fuck about people post-birth. It's a strange, strange inconsistency.

Am I the only one who distinguishes the people (women) who don't choose to abort a pregnancy from the "Pro-Life" movement (women and many men) that wants to legislate every woman's fate to be strictly baby-makers?

And seriously, dude, think about it: Essentially, you're saying that women who get a pregnancy should just bear it out, that they should forgo any choosing of what happens to them after conception, and simply be a carrier and birther. That's something you (and I) will never have to suffer, but how can you seriously say that this is the status women should accept?

I hope you know I don't see that as the role of women whatsoever. However, I do feel like both parents of a child should stick out the pregnancy period if the women becomes pregnant. Which, of course, would only work if people having sex were in a committed relationship, which I also think is important. It sucks that women have to be the ones carrying babies. That's rough. And therefore I feel like the father should be supporting the mother through it all. And if the parents aren't able to take care of the child, it would be ideal for them to be part of a community where people who see value in child before it's born would be willing to raise the child together.

So I guess what I'm saying there is that in the ideal society, abortion would not be necessary since people would support women through an unintended pregnancy and be ready to take the child in if they did not want to or were not able to nurture it. And therefore, not having abortions would be a step towards creating this ideal society.

Ah, it just seems like rhetoric, sadly. It does sound good, but that's all.
Honestly, not to be patronizing, but I feel it's one of those things that sounded so good and inspired me to pacifism for a while, but it really doesn't stand to critique.
I mean, the power differential between an all-powerful, omniscient God and mortal human worshipper is almost indescribable. Y'know, if God were to ask that of me, I would have a tough time holding back on a bitter, contemptuous answer.

Imagine asking Romeo Dallaire why he allowed the butchering in Rwanda to continue, and he just turns it back on you, a simple Rwandan taxi driver. "Uh, well, Sir, for starters I'm not a fucking UN General, I don't have a flak jacket or automatic rifle, or, uh, a fucking army! And I know how to drive around the city efficiently, not direct troops to repel an attack." Do you see my point?

It's not on you or me to stop massacres or earthquakes, and it might not be on God either, but certainly He is in a position where the question of "Why allow it?" is fairly asked of Him, and we are clearly not in His position.

I do see your point. And I've definitely been there. I guess what I feel now is that bad things happen, but they become beautiful when people come together because of bad things, and they become even worse when nothing but division and pain comes from these.
I read a book recently called "A Million Miles In A Thousand Years," and it points out that the greatest stories are the ones with the most painful situations being overcome. Some people who bellieve there is a God see Him as a storyteller of sorts, and that these awful things in the world can be tools to make our story more beautiful. Of course, when things like wars create apathy, violent retaliations, little compassion towards refugees, and acceptance that war brings about a greater good, our story really isn't getting any better. But what if there was a war and the reactions were all of compassion and love? That's when the story becomes powerful. I don't know if God creates things like natural disasters or not, but I do believe that He wants us to love each other and create a beautiful story of redemption and love out of the sorrow and fear of the world.

 

[christianarchy]

I also wanted to say that I feel you on the population control thing. I just feel like this should be done through parental education and encouragement to adopt, as well free birth control, and perhaps more accessibility and less of a cultural frown upon vasectomys/tubuligations (especially the latter, fuck the idea of women's value coming form their ability to procreate).

Also I have a question on the difference between "pro-life" and "anti-abortion." I've heard there is a difference but I don't know what it is?

 

[bote]

Also I have a question on the difference between "pro-life" and "anti-abortion." I've heard there is a difference but I don't know what it is?

one is a misnomer.

 

[tallhorseman]

If it ain't my uterus, it ain't my business.
If it ain't your uterus, it ain't your business.
If it's your uterus, it's your business.

Resistance to tyranny is obedience to god.

 

[MiztressWinter]

Hmm. this thread has made me think...alot. I have two children. I have also had two abortions. I am def pro choice. First abortion I had...I was 17 and squatting and was in no way, shape or form ready or willing to be a mommy. Second child I aborted because the relationship was abusive...I left him..and didn't want any ties. enough said. Third child I wanted to abort...but my partner (now husband) begged me to have the child. So I did. and IM GLAD I did....and I LOVE my two kids...but i'm at a point in my life now where I'm READY for that responsibility...and i think every woman should have that right to choose.

Mouse...I couldn't agree with you more. I haven't had an abortion since I was ...umm...around 21? (32 now) but even then it was like 500 bucks. There are plenty places to help you with a child if you have one (like food stamps...WIC...etc etc etc) but no place to help you if you DONT want to have the child...even though it's legal...it's *taboo* to support it. Why not?! Where isn't there help? With as many pro-choice people that there are in this world...WHY is there not any help for women who don't want to have a baby?!

 

[Lilly]

I am pro-choice all the way I think if your going to have a kid be ready for it and happy your having it because if you have it and you didn't want it how good is its life going to be in the long run your possibly going to reget it or resent the kid something...yes you will learn to love it I know kids are cute and such I have neices and nephews like mad so I know kids are cool...But I also know if it came down to me having a baby I'm not ready...I want to travel have a life and then get my education and do it right have the money to raise it in a good place...Not be like I had a baby at 18 or so and that is kinda where all my chances at adventures ended...

I get pro-life people I kinda do that bit of cells is a human and what not...but do you really want to bring a human into the world that you can't care for? Okay adoption nice pretty idea and yeah the baby could be one of the lucky ones that get a good home and the whole bit yeah sounds good right...heres the thing the chances are this baby is most possibly going to find out it adopted that its parents didn't want it and since your prolly not going to be near by to justify your self during this grand revolation...It is going to feel like hell for possibly a long time...

I know someone is going to reeally disagree with me...and every one is entitled to their opinion I know mine won't match some peoples and some peoples won't match mine we jus got to respect that I guess

 

[WapatoGreyer]

I'm pretty back and forth on the issue of abortions. Sometimes I'll think about it and feel that it's unethical to terminate what will be a living thing (excluding if the fetus dies naturally in the womb for whatever reason), because I feel like even if the child is going to have health problems or be mutated or have mental problems or whatever, it still deserves love and the chance to survive. Haha some girl might get pregnant with the next Masiah and we'd never know because it was terminated.

I dunno.

I can totally see the other side of the spectrum here. I myself don't go around having sex due to personal moral reasons but I know that doesn't mean that's how everyone is. I get it. Shit happens... condoms break, sometimes the pill isn't always effective (my friend still got his girlfriend pregnant even AFTER the doctor told her she couldn't have children, plus they used a condom AND she was on the pill), and unfortunately rape exists and etc., etc... And there's the whole thing with there being an improper setting for the kid to grow up in and everything. So I dunno, I see both sides. Simply put, I guess how I feel about it is this: If you're going to have sex, be safe, take extra precautions -- don't just rely on the pill or just on a condom because those don't always work --, make sure you're as ready as you can be if something unplanned happens, and if worst comes to worst, get an abortion. But I really think an abortion should be the last on the list of options.

Also, I agree with NickCofphee, there are already way too many kids out there who need good homes and parents. Foster care has its problems. I don't ever want children, at least, that's how I feel now. When I'm older and settled more, maybe. But never my own, I'd choose to adopt. But if people were more careful with sex then I don't think this would be as much of an issue.


Also, I am a big fan of vasectomies. Haha.