(VERY General) What is your idea of anarchy?

lobotomy3yes

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pure communism is anarchism, since both are stateless. I believe the best path to a stateless society is one where grassroots community action is happening. I think history has shown that a state controlled communistic path is not the way to go at all, since there will be power struggle at the state level. this sort of path eventually stops progressing when the government is affected by greed and capitalistic virtues.

The whole thing about good and evil is not moralistic. I dont believe in morality, but thats another story. with The whole good evil thing, i meant to say that war begets war and peace begets peace. a lot of anarchists are inclined to a militant view, "your with us or against us," "class war", "riots", but by doing all that it looses focus on what anarchism is. instead of focusin on what is wanted (freedom, peace, love, community), these anarchists focus on what is not wanted (hatred, war, anger, seperation (seperation between us and the current government, for example)). By focusing on what is not wanted, even tho we are fighting against what is not wanted, we fuel what is not wanted in the first place. the government fights back. the word "anarchism" has a social stigma because of this. war begets war.

so instead of being angry at what ever is wrong, lets dream of the best way to live. What do you want society to be live? how do you want your family, neighbors, community, countrymen, and fellow humans to live like? Id like everybody to be fed, be happy, be loved by one another, and be treated like humans and family. Now that i know what i want, I take steps to towards this direction without ever loosing heart, and if i do lose heart, i just focus again on what i want.
I think a Kropotkin quote is a fitting response. This is from "The Spirit of Revolt."

One party may have developed more clearly the theories which it defines and the program which it desires to realize; it may have made propaganda actively, by speech and in print. But it may not have sufficiently expressed its aspirations in the open, on the street, by actions which embody the thought it represents; it has done little, or it has done nothing against those who are its principal enemies; it has not attacked the institutions which it wants to demolish; its strength has been in theory, not in action; it has contributed little to awaken the spirit of revolt, or it has neglected to direct that spirit against conditions which it particularly desires to attack at the time of the revolution. As a result, this party is less known; its aspirations have not been daily and continuously affirmed by actions, the glamor of which could reach even the remotest hut; they have not sufficiently penetrated into the consciousness of the people; they have not identified themselves with the crowd and the street; they have never found simple expression in a popular slogan...
The party which has made most revolutionary propaganda and which has shown most spirit and daring will be listened to on the day when it is necessary to act, to march in front in order to realize the revolution. But that party which has not had the daring to affirm itself by revolutionary acts in the preparatory periods nor had a driving force strong enough to inspire men and groups to the sentiment of abnegation, to the irresistible desire to put their ideas into practice,--(if this desire had existed it would have expressed itself in action long before the mass of the people had joined the revolt)--and which did not know how to make its flag popular and its aspirations tangible and comprehensive,--that party will have only a small chance of realizing even the least part of its program. It will be pushed aside by the parties of action.
 

BrainWreck

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im pretty sure a revolution could turn out baldy...or not in our favor. its easy for for one person to find some sort of authority in the chaos, people will be looking for some sort of guidance.

The best transition to anarchy is a slow one
 

connerR

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I liked this:

Delerious said:
We have 5 people,
1, 2, 3, 4, and five.

1 likes carpentry(there are people who like carpentry and do so without the provocative of money).

2 likes helping other people and is very interested in medicine.

3 enjoys being a protector and a physical enforcer

4 enjoys music and art, and wishes to play and paint.

5 is infatuated with baking and cooking.

1 needs things to build and construct since he likes building. 2,3,4, and 5 need homes. 1 now has a very large amount of work that enjoys doing which in turn benefits the rest of the population.

2 needs people to help. He likes helping people of course. 1 hurts himself while building houses and 2 now has something to do. 5 also cuts himself while cooking. and 3 injured his leg practicing martial arts. 2 is stocked full of things to do.

3 Notices that while 5 was being stitched up by 2, some dogs started trying to eat the meat 5 was cooking. 3, now recovered from his leg injury roundhouse kicks the dogs and they leave...sorry guys I thought it was funny.

4 just wrote this beautiful new song on violin and finished her latest painting. She plays music for everyone as they go about their daily activities and decorates their houses with her artwork.

5 recovers and with a catchy tune in his head finishes dinner.

I love scenarios:

2 and 3 are attracted to 4. 4 is attracted to 1. With his heart broken, 2 becomes depressed and stops wanting to help people. 3 becomes angry and confronts 1. There's a fight! 2 and 3 leave society. Now 1, 4, and 5 have no protection and no token altruist. Then, persons 6-20 come and take over.
 

st1tch

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I liked this:



I love scenarios:

2 and 3 are attracted to 4. 4 is attracted to 1. With his heart broken, 2 becomes depressed and stops wanting to help people. 3 becomes angry and confronts 1. There's a fight! 2 and 3 leave society. Now 1, 4, and 5 have no protection and no token altruist. Then, persons 6-20 come and take over.

Yeah, that's basically the issue.
 

User Name

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a good example, the Paris Commune. a complete direct democracy, a true worker's state, again only lasted three or so months, but it would have held strong against the Royalists if the anarchists and the socialists could get along, and organize proper guerilla skermishes in the streets.

The idea of a "Paris Commune" or a "Anarchist Catalonia" or even a "Anarchist Ukraine" is that it still falls short of my desires. A funny conversation that I never hear take place is what would the Anarchists do to each other if they ever won? People more critical of civilization would still have to keep fighting and the "anarchist communists" would have to...repress them?

without revoltion how do you suppose we dissolve a government?

the bolshies didnt organize the armies, they had the armies already, aside from organizing a red guard of workers. the majority of soldiers on the frontlines against germany were on their side. either way thats irrellevant to your reply. but what i want to know is, other than not having a revolution which i still dont understand, how do you suppose you fight a government without a structured military? ive seen citation of Zapatistas, and guerilla fighters. however, i do not equate the ability or the power of the Mexican Federales to that to the US military. Especially if you are going to fight your war against the government of a post industrial nation, you definately need strategy, finely organized attacks, and the dicipline in your soldeirs to fight the way they need to inorder to not only win, but at least to put a decent dent in the enemy.

and that statistic of 10 percent is straight from the book Ten Days That Shook The World by john reed. (John Reeds own first hand accounts of the bolshevik revolution) only ten percent of the farmer peasantry of russia backed the october revolution, the farmer peasantry made up at least 90% of russia's total population.

but yes, in a modern post industrial nation, its going to need to be a much higher percent of the population, especially one such as US's of whom hold a great deal of personal arms. You cant win them over with out having them understand what the current system is doing to them. and they wont just fall on their knees finally understanding your mission agianst government when they read about the spanish civil war, or even the paris commune.

Awareness within the population, (as i implied) involves a great deal more than just knowing that anarchism can exist, its knowing that it is a BETTER alternative to capitalism and government. and knowing that requires reverting the programming of all the intricacies that bind the people into capitalism and government.

without doing that you have NO chance in hell of getting them on your side. and then whats your alternative? the upper class can burn for all i care, but eliminating the middle class all together the majority of a post industrial nation? the middle class will never give up the security in the lives they live without either death, or slow, reasonable convincing.

i dont see whats evangelical about passive activism.


and lastly? no governance? none at all? in no form what so ever? not even your own self saying "no i probably shouldnt do that"? that sounds to me alot like if while driving you come across red lights at busy intersections and due to your unfliching ideals ran them every time, eventually you are going to get into a very bad accident.

you cant escape governance completely, its called causality. somewhere along the line you have to realize your actions effect things and that can be detrimental to your livlihood.

Surely there are other tactics than the outdated revolution? You yourself claimed you only need 10% of the population, do you think you and 10% of America can take on the National Reserve AND (if it got that out of hand) the United States combined military (Air Force, Army, Navy) head on?

If the Reds in Russia didn't organize the revolution, why did the create a Vanguard party? A structured military is susceptible to infiltration and easier to repel because of their visibility. You'll simply be a noticeable troop of poorly armed insurgents easily taken out by a technologically advanced industrial army with all the governments resources at their disposal. The Federal Mexican government isn't a match for the US, true, and the Zapatistas aren't even a match for the Mexican government. They are allowed to exist for fear of international cries at best. Despite that Zapatistas have been killed by federal agents anyway. Their model is useless to me and is more of a "how NOT to do things" than a guide (like most leftist/revolutionary examples). It seems like that's what the US military runs on, so wouldn't disorder throw them off? Sporadic assaults that don't give them time to react. I don't know, the Viet Cong seem to have fared better than the Anarchists in Spain...

I think A LOT has changed since October 1917.

They won't fall to their knees even if you seem to be gaining a foothold (forget an upper hand).

If you think that's best, go for it. I think taking time to study weaknesses and finding out what fulcrums to use to best attack the joints of "the Leviathan" is time better spent.

I don't think I need them on my side. The middle class is already losing their comforts.

If you can't see the comparison, then it's moot to me. It's not just "passive activism" (since when does passivity accomplish anything, even if our daily lives?) but the whole converting people to anarchism. I mean that's what you've advocated through out your piece, and you can't deny that. Whether you want to call it "knowing that it is a BETTER alternative to capitalism and government", you're pitching them something the way a salesman or priest would.

Yes, absolutely none. Personal restraint or personal interests isn't governance, and your metaphor doesn't apply. Organic communities based on common interest based on SELF interest at best. Gatherer/Hunters disband when they no longer agree and go separate ways.

pure communism is anarchism, since both are stateless. I believe the best path to a stateless society is one where grassroots community action is happening. I think history has shown that a state controlled communistic path is not the way to go at all, since there will be power struggle at the state level. this sort of path eventually stops progressing when the government is affected by greed and capitalistic virtues.

The whole thing about good and evil is not moralistic. I dont believe in morality, but thats another story. with The whole good evil thing, i meant to say that war begets war and peace begets peace. a lot of anarchists are inclined to a militant view, "your with us or against us," "class war", "riots", but by doing all that it looses focus on what anarchism is. instead of focusin on what is wanted (freedom, peace, love, community), these anarchists focus on what is not wanted (hatred, war, anger, seperation (seperation between us and the current government, for example)). By focusing on what is not wanted, even tho we are fighting against what is not wanted, we fuel what is not wanted in the first place. the government fights back. the word "anarchism" has a social stigma because of this. war begets war.

so instead of being angry at what ever is wrong, lets dream of the best way to live. What do you want society to be live? how do you want your family, neighbors, community, countrymen, and fellow humans to live like? Id like everybody to be fed, be happy, be loved by one another, and be treated like humans and family. Now that i know what i want, I take steps to towards this direction without ever loosing heart, and if i do lose heart, i just focus again on what i want.

You lost me at "stateless society". There's a lot more wrong than just statism and capitalism.

Freedom, peace, and love do not exist solely. There will always be violence and conflict. We are not naturally inclined towards anything, but we are animals and we will fight when threatened. Talking about focusing on what you want won't wish the state away. This isn't about some weird abstract positive energy/thoughts. That's a bigger dead end than some vanguardist army. Plus this whole idea of "violence begets violence" is a little awkward. Does the violence a victim inflicts on their rapist/attacker/oppressor really mean they're justifying the actions of that rapist/attacker/oppressor?
 

JungleBoots

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@ username: Looking at your argument through your philosophy i agree with you on nearly all acounts, however fundimental philosophy is not something we share.

though i feel your attitude towards complete individual autonomy within a community (or not if i still fail to see how you really apply your ideals in living alone) is not so far from what i feel is appealing of an anarcho-communal type lifestyle. the only difference is where (i interpret) you feel completely autonomous individual interests in and of themselves maintain a stable community life via the hopefulness that potential consequences of causality will reign in potentially destructive habits (to the community).

While i feel that in a communal sense the reliance of the individual upon the community, and the community's reliance upon the individual through the potential consequences of causality will reign in potentially destructive habits (to the community) simply through unwritten expectations. such as shame is the only form of law in Semai culture.

maybe i am just fearful that one is too tempted to take advantage (tempted to discard causality and only aim to please one's own interests in one's own habits) of a community that provides livlihood to those with the ideal of perfect individual autonomy. or maybe i just feel more pragmatic and secure in a loose social structure that maintains the habits of the individual minorly through expectaiton alone.

ill admit most of what i was saying in the past loooooooonnng ass posts were in playing devil's advocate. as far as i am concerned anarchy is practicable within, around, and along side any system, so long as one can keep a low enough profile as to not draw the attention of law keepers, and system administrators that might not look kindly on outside alternatives. thus i dont feel revolution, violence, guerilla warfare, rebellion is unneccessary to effectively live in a self designed manner.
 

User Name

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@ username: Looking at your argument through your philosophy i agree with you on nearly all acounts, however fundimental philosophy is not something we share.

though i feel your attitude towards complete individual autonomy within a community (or not if i still fail to see how you really apply your ideals in living alone) is not so far from what i feel is appealing of an anarcho-communal type lifestyle. the only difference is where (i interpret) you feel completely autonomous individual interests in and of themselves maintain a stable community life via the hopefulness that potential consequences of causality will reign in potentially destructive habits (to the community).

While i feel that in a communal sense the reliance of the individual upon the community, and the community's reliance upon the individual through the potential consequences of causality will reign in potentially destructive habits (to the community) simply through unwritten expectations. such as shame is the only form of law in Semai culture.

maybe i am just fearful that one is too tempted to take advantage (tempted to discard causality and only aim to please one's own interests in one's own habits) of a community that provides livlihood to those with the ideal of perfect individual autonomy. or maybe i just feel more pragmatic and secure in a loose social structure that maintains the habits of the individual minorly through expectaiton alone.

ill admit most of what i was saying in the past loooooooonnng ass posts were in playing devil's advocate. as far as i am concerned anarchy is practicable within, around, and along side any system, so long as one can keep a low enough profile as to not draw the attention of law keepers, and system administrators that might not look kindly on outside alternatives.

thus i dont feel revolution, violence, guerilla warfare, rebellion is unneccessary to effectively live in a self designed manner.

That's fine, I never look for agreement or persuasion.

You've got me pegged, more or less. When the needs of the community or "consensus" override individuality, I lose interest. Now that is not to say that sometimes for individual interest you have to put others interest first. I could provide examples of this rather abstract concept I guess, but I hope my summation will suffice.

Sure, that makes sense. Shame, banishment, dispersing into factions, or killing the person in question (all of which gatherer/hunters do, more so the first 3). The Semai are an interesting people as they are an in between point. Not fully sedentary but not gatherer/hunters. People will often point to them or people like them as non-gatherer/hunters who still retain a lot of what makes the gatherer/hunter bands work. They are few and far between however and that is what makes them so unique. With the evolution of such a culture for millennia, the shame system works. The !kung will make fun of each other if they see someone is getting a big head. This prevents the rise of "big men" (seen in tribes) in band societies. In a situation where we are newly found in a uncivilized world, I think violence will play a role until such a culture begins to reappear.

Usually, like aforementioned, that is curtailed by culture. It won't be when civilized humans are allowed to be feral/rewild. Shunning or banishment would help, and if all else fails violence or the threat of it (as opposed to monopolized threats of violence by the state) are the only curtailment in that scenario.

That's fine, because the position you were advocating seems impractical and short sighted to me. I don't believe you're able to have anarchy with other systems in place. By their nature they either have to destroy or absorb that challenge to their system.

I don't know if you meant unnecessary or necessary in that last part. All those things, save revolution, would be necessary in my opinion.
 

JungleBoots

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squatting is an anachism within the system remeidal, and hardly true anarchism but an anarchism of sorts none the less. collectives, and neighborhood gardens are functionaries of anarchism within the system. generally nothing like what we have discussed in the past few posts entailing anti-civ cultures are really possible without a good breath of distance from a system.

but aside from that a single person can decide to avoid, the functionaries of political, legislative, social, and economic structures. and it may be a streatch but that in itself is a practice of self-sufficiency, autonomy, and so fourth.

hence acts of violence are unneccessary inorder to live such ways.
 

User Name

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squatting is an anachism within the system remeidal, and hardly true anarchism but an anarchism of sorts none the less. collectives, and neighborhood gardens are functionaries of anarchism within the system.

generally nothing like what we have discussed in the past few posts entailing anti-civ cultures are really possible without a good breath of distance from a system.

but aside from that a single person can decide to avoid, the functionaries of political, legislative, social, and economic structures. and it may be a streatch but that in itself is a practice of self-sufficiency, autonomy, and so fourth.

hence acts of violence are unneccessary inorder to live such ways.

I'm not sure any of those are forms of anarchy, but rather forms of survival in this system and possibly with the collective housing a way to ease your wallet. Feral Faun wrote a piece that sums this up pretty well. http://www.anti-politics.net/feral-faun/anarchist-subculture.html

I would say anti-civ ideals are still largely impossible even with the greatest distance possible (ask the surviving gatherer/hunters who are constantly harassed and displaced by the civilized). Civilization has to crumble.

I don't think that's possible, especially not in the long term (and really, not that long).

For those avenues I would agree, but you will face the threat of state violence for some of those (especially squatting).
 

stanktank

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for me, anarchism is a really personal thing. It's like i don't need someone to tell me the proper way of treating other people, i'm pretty empathetic so i can figure that out on my own. I was discussing with a friend not too long ago about this and we came to the conclusion that maybe anarchism is always just doomed to be in the fringes, made up of almost-off-the-map movements. Honestly i don't really have a problem with that. I think that A) to me, bringing something into the mainstream pretty much automatically ruins it, it's like anarchists would be the new hipsters or something? screw that. B) Plus i think people are just super selfish and are way too happy stepping on whoever they have to in order to get what they want.

And on the topic of revolution, as in taking to the streets, storming the proverbial Bastille, blah blah blah, that's cool and all, and i became obsessed that sort of thing when i read Les Miserable, but i just don't really see that solving any problems. i mean look at history, look at the (many) french and russian revolutions. Such indiscriminate bloodshed to me just creates you more enemies and not a very good place in history. It's like, hearing about protests and stuff and kids just fighting cops and breaking things because those things are involved in "state sanctioned terror" or are responsible for "taking advantage of the third world" really really annoys me. it just seems so childish, like throwing a temper tantrum. no one listens to that bullshit, (i don't and i consider myself an anarchist of sorts). And besides, the government is more than capable of handling those instances and loves just turning them around to paint anarchism in a bad light. I've been hearing a lot about a diversity of tactics lately, but why would you want a diversity if half of your tactics fail to produce any results...or lets be truthful, most of your tactics fail to produce results and actually create bad results, (as in people losing respect for your movement).

All this being said. I'm not an anarchist guru and have read little to nothing on anarchism. this is just my two sense as i see it.
 

RnJ

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OK, I'll keep it "general," but first you should know two things. I have not really read much literature of people who would call themselves anarchists. Second, while in certain instances I would describe myself as anarchaic, I have never yet called myself an Anarchist. It's a term so widely applied, that it could be interepreted as terrorism or something trendy, depending on who you talk to. My opinion is based upon my gatherings from banter over the years, and some books with anarchaic content.

In my opinion, anarchy should be:

-self-responsibility + community (do it ourself, not do it yourself, as well as not reliant on food stamps, but your own community to which you also contribute)

-positive - living the hope of the future in the now, not being a cynical bitch

-pacifistic - pretty much for the reason that i have no authority to deal out what even i believe is a just cause.

-personal lifestyle, not the state of a nation - live it. it can't possible become a political system.

-respect - self-explanatory? maybe not...

-not confined to one social group or sub-culture - um, because anarchy should not be an imperialist force which forces everyone to wear black and ride trains.

-an ideal, and as such, nothing we ever truly embody perfectly - it's about the path it puts you on, not something we'll ever perfectly embody. besides, people are corrupt as ever, myself especially.
 

wartomods

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Travelers in the Wrong; My rant on selfish arrogant dirty kids

Anarchism in Capitalism sounds much nicer than plain Anarchism.
Thats why i support capitalism, ahah.

Some people just want safety and organisation into something bigger, let them do it.
 

wartomods

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Travelers in the Wrong; My rant on selfish arrogant dirty kids

You dont want to be that old "hippie" guy, who is always claiming that anarchism is the answer and the government and jobs , etc, just exist to mess with your mind.
 

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