The Pronouns Thread

[Deleted member 24782]

I'm not sure what you mean. When I was being socialized, "sissy" in reference to a male was considered derogatory (and perhaps it still is). That was way before the current discussions of gender were under way.

I was being sarcastic. Cis reminded me of sissy, doubt there is any correlation between the two. If necessary, I would identify as a cis male, but the term doesn't bother me at all.

 

[CouchPunx]

I read it. And the other thread. Sry I'll just move on.

Sounds like you dont have any trans friends. Once you do you'll be like "oh, shit that was all really important and i shoulda listened" not just out of respect but because motherfuckers are fucking evil to trans people, sometimes out of ignorance but either way its your job to be awesome in response

 

[Lotus Shaped Potato]

Didn’t read your entire thing because a lot of it seems to be addressing cis people and I’m tired and at work. I will say that I use they/them and have for years now.

Misgendering, past a certain point (like not being told) does cause pain, the same way being called slurs is painful. I like this one analogy where Misgendering is like having bricks put in your backpack, the more it happens the heavier everything feels and the worse life becomes.

If someone Misgenders me continuously I will just stop associating with them because why would I form friendship with someone who doesn’t respect me enough to make the effort to address me as who I am?

Imagine if everytime you walked into a store someone called you a faggot, just casually and without care. Then when you tried to explain not to do that because it hurts they throw their hands up and say “i’ve always called you people fags! Jeeze just let go of it! Get used to it! No one is EVER gunna change is!” And other excuses. On some level I think we can all see how this creates pain.

No one likes being seen as someone or something they’re not.

 

[benton]

No one likes being seen as someone or something they’re not.

which is exactly why I prefer not to be referred to as "cis" because it is a term that does not accurately describe me.

My research indicates that "cis" is a Latin prefix that translates as "on the near side of; on this side of."

I don't see what that has to do with me, an American speaker of English on Planet Earth in the year 2019.

 

[Deleted member 24782]

which is exactly why I prefer not to be referred to as "cis" because it is a term that does not accurately describe me.

My research indicates that "cis" is a Latin prefix that translates as "on the near side of; on this side of."

I don't see what that has to do with me, an American speaker of English on Planet Earth in the year 2019.

Cis is shorthand, and one of many words spewing out of the academic world as we build non gender binary sports teams of the future.

I'd like to believe there is only HUMANITY and SEXUALITY. Doesn't it seem like everything else is just splitting hairs?

 

[Older Than Dirt]

After some hesitation, and knowing i may well be banned for posting this, here is what i think: politeness demand we refer to those we are close to in ways that will make them happy. So does self-interest- if we piss off those we like, we will be lonely.

But- the demand that folks "correctly gender" others is a step backwards in gender freedom, and anti-feminist.

There's been decades of efforts by feminists to develop forms of language that de-emphasize gender, and the constant recitation of gender in conversation, through use of gender-neutral pronouns among other things. This is rooted in an effort to overcome sexism and misogyny, just like gender-neutral bathrooms.

Note that this struggle has been successful in eliminating the routine recital of a female's marriage/ownership status (through use of "Miss" or "Mrs." before their name) in my lifetime.

In this view, gender is seen as a socially-constructed performance, not an innate identity.
Gender is de-emphasized out of a recognition that traditional gender roles have had very bad consequences for persons with female reproductive organs.

Use of singular "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun comes out of a desire to de-emphasize the gender binary, but can conflict with the neo-binary gender performances of trans folks.

"Misgendering" a person is seen as disrespectful, with use of [would-be neutral] "they" sometimes considered to be misgendering since it seeks neutrality rather than determining the gender identity of the person spoken about, and affirming it through pronoun usage.

Note that English pronouns only are gendered when speaking about individual third parties- "I" and "you" are not gendered, nor are plural references to third parties.

So we have folks trying to be polite and PC by using gender-neutral pronouns getting told off for doing so. But why do we need to relate to people through determining and reciting their gender? How is this progressive?

 

[roughdraft]

i like the analogy of a name and Richard/Rick/Dick for example and being considerate enough to call Rick his preferred name... or I will add, for instance, if Margaret identifies more as Molly, or Maggie

it actually suits me - my name is Stuart, I used to go by Stu and some people I used to know who I run into still call me that, or new friends choose to call me that from their own volition as well. I much prefer Stuart these days for certain reasons, but I'll generally take either, because I think they both apply to me.

One thing I have been called that somewhat offends me (at my worst) is Stuey/Stewie....I don't identify as fuckin Stuey.... but (at my best) i"m not going to make it an issue because what is that worth?

Anyway, I know in my heart and in my experience I've been nothing but good to the transgender, nonbinary and/or queer people I've spent time with, and that I am not actively living the life of a *bigot* for fux sake - I just have to say, it *seems* to me a downward spiral to make *i am she/he not they* such an issue, to be a hardass about it - and the recent fallout between wellknown forum users here looks to be only evidence to that.

Then again, it takes two to tango... 'call me Stuart' and you keep callin me Stu yeah I'll prolly think yr a douchebag....

the question is who would be the bigger douche....?

 

[Older Than Dirt]

I have now googled Comrade @Juan Derlust 's joke and am now unconfused.

To save others doing so, the punchline: "Stew".

 

[benton]

Cis is shorthand,

what is it shorthand for, exactly?

 

[croc]

Preface: I am a trans man who has had no physical transition, and may never physically transition. My face is naturally kind of andro or masc but I don't bind my chest often or even wear bras often, my chest is usually visible, my voice is high, sometimes I wear feminine clothes, I allow myself to be as feminine as I want bc I don't think it makes me any less of a man. (@Engineer J Lupo I am that 1 in 10 trans guy who doesn't think their tits have shit to do with me being a man haha) As a result, I'm misgendered veeeery often. But thank fuck it doesn't usually bother me anymore unless it is someone I care about or have to work with/live with.

But- the demand that folks "correctly gender" others is a step backwards in gender freedom, and anti-feminist.

There's been decades of efforts by feminists to develop forms of language that de-emphasize gender, and the constant recitation of gender in conversation, through use of gender-neutral pronouns among other things. This is rooted in an effort to overcome sexism and misogyny, just like gender-neutral bathrooms.

Note that this struggle has been successful in eliminating the routine recital of a female's marriage/ownership status (through use of "Miss" or "Mrs." before their name) in my lifetime.

In this view, gender is seen as a socially-constructed performance, not an innate identity.
Gender is de-emphasized out of a recognition that traditional gender roles have had very bad consequences for persons with female reproductive organs.

Use of singular "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun comes out of a desire to de-emphasize the gender binary, but can conflict with the neo-binary gender performances of trans folks.

"Misgendering" a person is seen as disrespectful, with use of [would-be neutral] "they" sometimes considered to be misgendering since it seeks neutrality rather than determining the gender identity of the person spoken about, and affirming it through pronoun usage.

Note that English pronouns only are gendered when speaking about individual third parties- "I" and "you" are not gendered, nor are plural references to third parties.

So we have folks trying to be polite and PC by using gender-neutral pronouns getting told off for doing so. But why do we need to relate to people through determining and reciting their gender? How is this progressive?

Okay, starting with asking that people use gendered pronouns being "anti-feminist"....
Well plenty of the "feminist" movement(s?) has been and continues to be trans exclusionary. Pussy riot shit where "feminism" is all focused on anatomy, and the fact that trans women have and very much continue to be seen as outsider men trying to invade a REAL women's space.
And so many "feminists" are ready as all hell to try to silence trans men or other trans afab people. As if us not identifying as women somehow changes the way we're still treated on a day to day basis by the general public perceiving us as women.

And maybe some people's feminism includes removing the construct of gender from themselves, but I don't think that's even most femmes?? (for context I do group myself with the word "femmes" bc I'm so often perceived as feminine and I experience the struggles that come with being perceived as feminine or a "woman" ). Like, sure, taking away societal expectations from genders (ie gender roles) is a key part of feminism. But taking away gender? Not any modern day feminism I've seen.

I think it's not about removing gender/making things neutral, but instead about saying "my gender is part of me, but does not define me or determine my capabilities".

Even as a binary trans person, I think gender is a fucking scam and dumb and made up. But yet... I still feel this way. I still identify as a man rather than neutral. If I could flip a switch and not feel this way, I would in a heart beat. But this isn't something I choose or can change. Being trans is never something I enjoy. Ever. It honestly fucking sucks. And I'm sorry if that brings other trans people down but god damn do I feel like I just need to scream about how THIS FUCKING SUCKS AND I HATE IT. I HATE THIS SO DAMN MUCH.
So if other people could have the compassion to make this often shitty, stressful experience a little more comfortable for us by just calling us "he/she/they" it would mean so damn much to a lot of us.

If what ur saying, not just in this comment but previous ones too, is that ur not interested in being told someone's pronouns are different than u expected and then being expected to apply that new knowledge then u may actually and truly be older than dirt lol (read with light tone).

Say u meet someone who looks white to u. Say for some reason in conversation u call them white and they tell u that they're actually black and happen to be light skinned. Wouldn't calling them white still or maneuvering around calling them black as a way to avoid the subject be like. Weird and rude? I think so.

"But why do we need to relate to people through determining and reciting their gender? How is this progressive?"

I imagine u do it with cis people, call them he or she, I mean. So why not us too? It's understandable there's a learning curve. But is having to learn about people a reason to avoid getting on the same page?
It's progressive bc respecting people's uniqueness is a progressive concept in my book. People are more free to express themselves now than ever, more free to be their authentic selves. And that's fucking beautiful so let's keep the ball rolling. Let's keep supporting ppl being who they really are, whether we understand them or see them the way they see themselves or not.

And I don't think I personally know any trans ppl who want their gender to be the focus of who they are. I certainly don't like emphasis being put on mine. I'm a man, a trans man but that has so much less to do with who I am than the words "artist" or "traveler" or "ass enthusiast". I don't think we as a group want it recited and paid a bunch of attention to like that.


And to wrap this shit up, I fucking hate when trans people yell at others for not already being educated/not knowing someone's pronouns off the bat and misgendering them/not being hip to the jargon yet etc etc*

It furthers people from our cause and turns them away. Directly making every trans person's life harder. Obviously if they're being fucking rude and refusing to care or learn, yell at em sure. Fuck em. But at the end of the day, we were ALL raised with the teachings of "men look and sound like x y z" and "women look and sound like x y z" and that's all there is.

We ALL have had to learn otherwise to be able to adjust our language and mindsets. Trans people included.

*I know ignorance was not the case in the thread that lead to this thread. I just mean in general, not that situation.


Okay I lied. One more thing.
While corn got pissed at Matt using "they" for a woman who prefers "she", I have heard Matt call this girl "she" before multiple times too. It's not been exclusively "they" and total avoidance for "she". And when this girl first came out n Matt wasn't used to the pronoun shift, if I heard it and needed to correct him about calling her "she", he immediately complied every time. "Right, she."

It does take time for people to learn. If there's true effort being put forth, I'm down to give that person patience. But if someone is not willing to give that patience bc it's damaging to them to stick around for the process, that's valid too.

 

[croc]

Okay, Jesus christ sorry yall but one more thing.

@Older Than Dirt i think deciding if something is feminist or not is like deciding if something is punk or not. Very very very subjective terms that can have entirely different meanings to each person.

Someone might think making things gender neutral is "feminism" like someone might think burning down a landlord's house is "punk".
My ideas of feminism and punk are way different than either of those but yet I'd still associate with both terms.

 

[WyldLyfe]

Throughout the ages it seems that people have struggled with & sought after the questions pondered by our ancestors.
Gender confusion is a delusional subconscious programming being at its inner core , a deep seeded lack of acceptance of oneself & how one was created out from the womb
It’s believed that our essence or soul is comprised of two vital energies, one would call “male” other “female”
Each containing its own correspondences & traits. The idea is by meeting both energies in a balanced trajectory, the “male” & “female” energies unite in complimentary progress of evolutionary form, & bring the soul to zero point
Or what buddha called the middle path

It is when one has not begun to reach union of one’s own male an female energies inside that one strays too far left or right & looses touch with half of one’s “forces” ultimately resulting in disharmony with oneself & creation

How u perceive is based on what’s going on in your subconscious

It has nothing to do with the other person . In fact, that other person is acting as a mirror to what’s going on inside yourself. It’s up to u if u want to extract from & take what the situation is trying to tell u

The point fingers are getting @ is, this to me sounds like the same underlying issue people have when others use the wrong pronoun
If at its core, gender confusion stems from unacceptance of oneself , then how can one get upset at others when they are simply mirroring that person’s deep subconscious program
Kinda how most people won’t help people who don’t help themselves

it’s yours & only your decision to react to these situations. U can choose to observe it,not give a fuck what people say or think or you can be the opposite & let others control how U feel
Look we all have things going on, & I don’t care what anyone chooses to identify as long as u happy ..but laws of nature don’t change becuz one wants them to..all the disguises an hormones serve as escapist realities of the lost soul

Surprised someone else here decided to talk about this, from an energy perspective, every one regardless if your male or female has both masculine and feminine qualities and its about coming into harmony with the two, the mind and the heart, becoming a balanced human being.

The neocortex of the brain has two hemispheres. The left brain hemisphere largely facilitates logical and scientific though, while the right brain hemisphere largely facilitates creativity and compassion. When both hemispheres are in balance, the neocortex acts in it's proper role as the executive command centre of the human brain and true intelligence (intellect + creativity) is born.
Intellect, Solar (masculine) logic, analytical thought, science and math.
Intuition, Luna (Feminine) creativity, holistic thought, compassion.
Intellect (masculine) can lead to: rigid scepticism, scientism, atheism, solipsism, moral realitivism, social darwinism, eugenics, authoritarianism.
If this part of the brain is chronically dominant.
Intuition (feminine) can lead to: Naivete, blind belief, religious extremism, solipsism, unworthiness, self loathing, order follower, willing slave.
If this part of the brain is chronically dominant.​

ScarletMountain also agree with what you said about this is an issue about the person not liking themselves the way they are born male or female, if someone doesn't like the way they are and then start to mutilate themselves to feel better, is this not a disharmony in the mind? people get locked up for that. They say trans people have a high suicide rate, some say its because they are bullied, but black people often say they are bullied too there is a lot more of them and they commit suicide much less, so it can't be about bullying, like yes that is part of it but someone with mental illness is more likely to hurt themselves if they are bullied a lot, then someone who doesn't.

And im not a hater, im just discussing here, I have a trans cousin.. who I visit every now an then, ultimately people can do what they want with themselves, but once they start telling others how to talk around them an try impose there will on another, they have no right. Some kid came up to me the other day asking me to play soccer with him an his mate, was like nah thanks man.. he asked me three more times then said "why not? are you a faggot?" I looked at him an aggressively said "Fuck off kid!" an he shit himself an walked off.. sorry people but in the real world.. not every one is just gonna cater to you an your choices, and you need to stand up for yourself, be strong don't put yourself in a victim mentality, life can be fucking hardcore, work through it to the best of your ability, and never give up.

​

 

[feralautistic]

the sheer bullshit in this thread....

So we have folks trying to be polite and PC by using gender-neutral pronouns getting told off for doing so. But why do we need to relate to people through determining and reciting their gender? How is this progressive?

if you're not willing to refer to trans people in the (gendered) way they want to be referred to, all you're doing is hurting them. you're not being gender-neutral, you're just ignoring someone's agency.

gender is nearly impossible to escape. i have never met a single person who doesn't use gender in relating to others. basically *every* social interaction is affected in some way by gender, especially interactions between strangers but close relationships as well. cis people tend not to notice this because they don't have any point of comparison. many trans people, myself included, would love to exist in a world without gender. but that's not an option. our options are being treated as a man, a woman, or a subhuman freak.

seriously, can cis people please shut the fuck up about being trans? because you don't get it, it's embarrassing for everyone. every damn new ager with some theory about "energies" and debunked pop neurology thinks they know how trans people work and you all know NOTHING.

ScarletMountain also agree with what you said about this is an issue about the person not liking themselves the way they are born male or female, if someone doesn't like the way they are and then start to mutilate themselves to feel better, is this not a disharmony in the mind? people get locked up for that. They say trans people have a high suicide rate, some say its because they are bullied, but black people often say they are bullied too there is a lot more of them and they commit suicide much less, so it can't be about bullying, like yes that is part of it but someone with mental illness is more likely to hurt themselves if they are bullied a lot, then someone who doesn't.

........ i'm not even going to touch your ridiculous worldview but if you're going to form opinions based on suicide statistics, why don't you look for what being isolated does to people? being trans will rip your support network away like almost nothing else. you start to expect that at least half the people you encounter in every situation are hostile to your existence. even the ones who aren't will turn on you if you act too much like yourself. you learn not to trust anyone apart from other trans people. and you most likely have trauma at this point, along with everyone you *can* trust, so even the support you do have is fucked up from that.

but nah, it's probably just that trans people are mentally ill for breaking social norms and not adhering to whatever the fuck you said about gender energies.

Throughout the ages it seems that people have struggled with & sought after the questions pondered by our ancestors.
Gender confusion is a delusional subconscious programming being at its inner core , a deep seeded lack of acceptance of oneself & how one was created out from the womb
It’s believed that our essence or soul is comprised of two vital energies, one would call “male” other “female”
Each containing its own correspondences & traits. The idea is by meeting both energies in a balanced trajectory, the “male” & “female” energies unite in complimentary progress of evolutionary form, & bring the soul to zero point
Or what buddha called the middle path

It is when one has not begun to reach union of one’s own male an female energies inside that one strays too far left or right & looses touch with half of one’s “forces” ultimately resulting in disharmony with oneself & creation

just. what the fuck. bonus points for mentioning the buddha in the middle of that. i wonder if you read some buddhism and profoundly misinterpreted it, or you just never bothered to.....

anyway if there were male and female essences balanced within us, wouldn't trans people be in the best position to understand them? because, yknow, we're the ones who've experienced being treated as more than one of them.

whew. this was a good thread idea. but i'm gonna link to this every time i need to make the point that cis people nearly always fail to be good about trans stuff. even the cis people who are alright. i've been lurking on this site for a while and it really drives home the thought that if a space isn't just queer, it's not going to be queer-friendly.

 

[feralautistic]

Do you hope to help foster any understanding by operating in queer-only spaces or should we just maintain some kind of at-odds factionalism?

i don't give a shit about understanding if the goal isn't making queer people safer. if i'm going to be somewhere i'll do my best to make it an okay place to exist, and that includes spreading understanding. but it's more about understanding who's a shithead and avoiding them than convincing them i deserve to exist

 

[roughdraft]

you start to expect that at least half the people you encounter in every situation are hostile to your existence. even the ones who aren't will turn on you if you act too much like yourself. you learn not to trust anyone [...]

i just want to point out that (I believe) this is something that tons of people (possibly everyone) unfortunately experience regardless of their being trans, queer, cisgendered or otherwise. At least I can say for myself it's a burden in my life and has been a huge painful burden for a long time

 

[Deleted member 24782]

Preface: I am a trans man who has had no physical transition, and may never physically transition. My face is naturally kind of andro or masc but I don't bind my chest often or even wear bras often, my chest is usually visible, my voice is high, sometimes I wear feminine clothes, I allow myself to be as feminine as I want bc I don't think it makes me any less of a man. (@Engineer J Lupo I am that 1 in 10 trans guy who doesn't think their tits have shit to do with me being a man haha) As a result, I'm misgendered veeeery often. But thank fuck it doesn't usually bother me anymore unless it is someone I care about or have to work with/live with.



Okay, starting with asking that people use gendered pronouns being "anti-feminist"....
Well plenty of the "feminist" movement(s?) has been and continues to be trans exclusionary. Pussy riot shit where "feminism" is all focused on anatomy, and the fact that trans women have and very much continue to be seen as outsider men trying to invade a REAL women's space.
And so many "feminists" are ready as all hell to try to silence trans men or other trans afab people. As if us not identifying as women somehow changes the way we're still treated on a day to day basis by the general public perceiving us as women.

And maybe some people's feminism includes removing the construct of gender from themselves, but I don't think that's even most femmes?? (for context I do group myself with the word "femmes" bc I'm so often perceived as feminine and I experience the struggles that come with being perceived as feminine or a "woman" ). Like, sure, taking away societal expectations from genders (ie gender roles) is a key part of feminism. But taking away gender? Not any modern day feminism I've seen.

I think it's not about removing gender/making things neutral, but instead about saying "my gender is part of me, but does not define me or determine my capabilities".

Even as a binary trans person, I think gender is a fucking scam and dumb and made up. But yet... I still feel this way. I still identify as a man rather than neutral. If I could flip a switch and not feel this way, I would in a heart beat. But this isn't something I choose or can change. Being trans is never something I enjoy. Ever. It honestly fucking sucks. And I'm sorry if that brings other trans people down but god damn do I feel like I just need to scream about how THIS FUCKING SUCKS AND I HATE IT. I HATE THIS SO DAMN MUCH.
So if other people could have the compassion to make this often shitty, stressful experience a little more comfortable for us by just calling us "he/she/they" it would mean so damn much to a lot of us.

If what ur saying, not just in this comment but previous ones too, is that ur not interested in being told someone's pronouns are different than u expected and then being expected to apply that new knowledge then u may actually and truly be older than dirt lol (read with light tone).

Say u meet someone who looks white to u. Say for some reason in conversation u call them white and they tell u that they're actually black and happen to be light skinned. Wouldn't calling them white still or maneuvering around calling them black as a way to avoid the subject be like. Weird and rude? I think so.

"But why do we need to relate to people through determining and reciting their gender? How is this progressive?"

I imagine u do it with cis people, call them he or she, I mean. So why not us too? It's understandable there's a learning curve. But is having to learn about people a reason to avoid getting on the same page?
It's progressive bc respecting people's uniqueness is a progressive concept in my book. People are more free to express themselves now than ever, more free to be their authentic selves. And that's fucking beautiful so let's keep the ball rolling. Let's keep supporting ppl being who they really are, whether we understand them or see them the way they see themselves or not.

And I don't think I personally know any trans ppl who want their gender to be the focus of who they are. I certainly don't like emphasis being put on mine. I'm a man, a trans man but that has so much less to do with who I am than the words "artist" or "traveler" or "ass enthusiast". I don't think we as a group want it recited and paid a bunch of attention to like that.


And to wrap this shit up, I fucking hate when trans people yell at others for not already being educated/not knowing someone's pronouns off the bat and misgendering them/not being hip to the jargon yet etc etc*

It furthers people from our cause and turns them away. Directly making every trans person's life harder. Obviously if they're being fucking rude and refusing to care or learn, yell at em sure. Fuck em. But at the end of the day, we were ALL raised with the teachings of "men look and sound like x y z" and "women look and sound like x y z" and that's all there is.

We ALL have had to learn otherwise to be able to adjust our language and mindsets. Trans people included.

*I know ignorance was not the case in the thread that lead to this thread. I just mean in general, not that situation.


Okay I lied. One more thing.
While corn got pissed at Matt using "they" for a woman who prefers "she", I have heard Matt call this girl "she" before multiple times too. It's not been exclusively "they" and total avoidance for "she". And when this girl first came out n Matt wasn't used to the pronoun shift, if I heard it and needed to correct him about calling her "she", he immediately complied every time. "Right, she."

It does take time for people to learn. If there's true effort being put forth, I'm down to give that person patience. But if someone is not willing to give that patience bc it's damaging to them to stick around for the process, that's valid too.

Good insights, I would prefer to be called an "ass enthusiast" than a man.

 

[croc]

Well, u ain't gonna find this tasteful but I'm gonna start by having to let u know ppl like u are the reason I hate hippies @ScarletMountain i have been preached to by countless hippies, especially hippie men, about how trans people are ill or confused. How there is male and female. And Jesus are u a fucking idiot and an asshole. But I'll do u the honor of breaking down why.

If at its core, gender confusion stems from unacceptance of oneself , then how can one get upset at others when they are simply mirroring that person’s deep subconscious program
Kinda how most people won’t help people who don’t help themselves

Girl, who said we were confused???
If u really think people are programmed to be either male or female, I've got some swell news for u. There are studies done on the brain that show binary trans people having a brain that more reflects their gender identity rather than their sex.
Speaking of helping one's self, u should help urself through some google searches for what the fuck you're talking about bc u are very very uneducated about trans people from TRANS people's experiences and perspectives. What ur saying is cis rhetoric that I'm tired of even entertaining enough to have a conversation about. And I'm a patient ass bitch so that's saying something.

Gender confusion is a delusional subconscious programming being at its inner core , a deep seeded lack of acceptance of oneself & how one was created out from the womb

Trans people are not confused. We CLEARLY state to yall how we feel and who we are. YALL are the ones confused about US. The whole concept of being trans is self acceptance. "I am not what I was taught that I am supposed to be".

So do not impose your confusion on us please.

I think you're delusional for thinking u know an entire group of people you've never met better than we know ourselves.

Personally, I accept myself fully. I'm a faggot with tits and a vagina who wears crop tops and boxer briefs and has hairy limbs and crevices and loves getting dirty and working hard and being active and doing people's make up. I am very secure in who I am and plenty of other trans people are too.

ScarletMountain also agree with what you said about this is an issue about the person not liking themselves the way they are born male or female, if someone doesn't like the way they are and then start to mutilate themselves to feel better, is this not a disharmony in the mind? people get locked up for that. They say trans people have a high suicide rate, some say its because they are bullied, but black people often say they are bullied too there is a lot more of them and they commit suicide much less, so it can't be about bullying, like yes that is part of it but someone with mental illness is more likely to hurt themselves if they are bullied a lot, then someone who doesn't.

Not just bc we are bullied, but because we are denied and belittled (read your own words for a direct example) by many people very regularly. Also, check the suicide rates for trans black people (yeah, those groups do overlap....)
A black person isn't gonna get kicked out of their home if they tell their parents that they're black but it happens to trans people all the time. Black people aren't called mentally ill for being black, something they did not choose in the first place (wow kinda like being trans whoaaa wild).
Have u considered that yall denying trans people's identities and calling us ill has uhhh idk A LOT to do with why our suicide rates are high???
My mom and I never had a phenonimal relationship but after I came out to her she would not answer my calls or texts for a year. That doesn't happen to black people for being black. Apples and oranges. The person who u lived inside of, who was the first to hold u in this world, who is supposed to love and care for u unconditionally cutting off contact with u bc they don't agree with or like who u KNOW u are... That's the kind of shit that makes people kill themselves.

Lots (not all) of trans people change their bodies moreso to make their lives easier than just straight up "this is how I want to look for me". The times I greatly consider going on hormones, the times I decide to bind my chest or fake a deep voice when I'm walking around somewhere dangerous alone at night. Those are all motivated by being UNSAFE around cis people who think my gender or anatomy determines how they should treat me, whether or not they should have decent repesect for me, or whether or not they should attack or rape me.
I don't dislike my body for what it is, I dislike how people treat me BECAUSE OF my body and what THEY think my body means.
See, we can change our bodies much easier than we can change society at large. And when it's adapt or be treated like shit regularly... most people are gonna go with option A.

This is incredibly relatable to me and describes parts of being trans a lot of people don't consider:


On the note of transition being "mutilation": As someone covered in self harm scars, I assure u there is a very large difference between me having mutilated my body out of intense mental illness and someone altering their body to feel more at home in it.
Tattoos, piercings, stretched piercings, nose jobs, make up, permanent make up, building muscle intentionally, dyed hair, hair removal: these are all body modifications that people do so that they like their body more or they feel like it expresses their inner self more than their natal body does OR makes their life easier bc of how ppl will treat them based on how they look. Transitioning is that.

Some kid came up to me the other day asking me to play soccer with him an his mate, was like nah thanks man.. he asked me three more times then said "why not? are you a faggot?" I looked at him an aggressively said "Fuck off kid!" an he shit himself an walked off.. sorry people but in the real world.. not every one is just gonna cater to you an your choices, and you need to stand up for yourself, be strong don't put yourself in a victim mentality, life can be fucking hardcore, work through it to the best of your ability, and never give up.

So someone called u a faggot and u didn't want them to do that so when u let them know they were being a fuck ass, they stopped and left and that made ur day better that they didn't call u a faggot more. Maybe... Just maybe.. U now understand why it sucks to be called something u don't identify as or want to be called. And mayyybe u can apply that firsthand experience and not do it to trans people.

i just want to point out that (I believe) this is something that tons of people (possibly everyone) unfortunately experience regardless of their being trans, queer, cisgendered or otherwise. At least I can say for myself it's a burden in my life and has been a huge painful burden for a long time

Sadly yes, just at much higher rates for trans and queer ppl.

 

[croc]

Gonna quote some highlights of this video bc I doubt many people will watch it thru


"... my own body feels more like a guillotine than a gift. Sometimes people ask me when I knew I was transgender. They ask me if I feel like I was born in the wrong body. As if gender is that simple. As if my body is a pair of handcuffs chaining me to housewife, to mother, to woman. I am not trapped in my body. I am trapped in other people's perceptions of my body."

"I tell myself that top surgery is expensive; it's dangerous, the backaches from binding aren't really all that bad. Besides, I love boobs on other people; why can't I just love my own? But when I tell people my name, they still use the wrong one. I say "not girl," and they give me back "woman, lady, she." I say "not woman," they say "silly girl, it is not up to you to decide." And I don't want to hate my body for this. My body is not wrong. The way people talk about my body is wrong. But my body is the only thing I can change."

"My best friend asks me why I want top surgery, a voluntary double mastectomy. He asks me why I would want to cut off a perfectly Healthy body part.I tell him it is not Healthy to feel unsafe in my body. This chest feels like a misplaced sex organ. If you had a penis growing from your elbow, you'd probably want to cut it off. People would come up to you and talk to you about your elbow penis. They would never let you be anything more than your body. I am more than my body.."

"So stop calling me diseased. Stop looking at my body and chaining me to whoever you think it makes me. I was not born into the wrong body. I was born into a world that does not know what my Body means."

 

[croc]

And idk if I'm gonna be able to keep replying to this thread bc these are draining conversations that I have at least once a week. I like trying to talk shit out n educate people but it really is a draining topic to go over and over regularly when it so directly affects my day to day life already.
Hopefully some stuff I said gets through to the people who are confused or maybe were never introduced to some of these perspectives. And maybe my other trans bbys wanna chime in or add onto or even disagree with some stuff I said.

Thicker skin needs to be built on many trans people (for their own sake) but that is not an excuse for others to not be compassionate enough to change some words around for us or just not associate with us if ur that set against it.

 

[Deleted member 24782]

I'm a 34 year old straight white man. And god damn it was hard enough just to become that, my transition into manhood started about 5 years ago, right after I got married. I can only image the struggle LGBTQ's have to face, and I support that.

I was introduced to radical feminist politics and queerness when I was 17. Matter of fact, the banner of this thread is a Crimethinc poster I used to have hanging on my wall. I have observed a lot of interesting behavior since that time, and have participated in a bit myself, including crossdressing. I have only ever ONCE been asked to use correct pronouns. Denver 2003 I was handed a business card by a 16 year old trans person that described the different pronouns that they used, and some other gender insights. There was mention of the ze zir zirs which I never used and they seem to have fallen by the wayside. I say THEY when appropriate, and I have friends that ONLY say THEY when referencing EVERYONE, I don't like it, but I don't think it's bad.

To date, I have been intimate with 2 trannies mtf/ftm, a drag queen, a gay man, and a lesbian. This was most all in my 20's as I spent a lot of time on the streets, traveling, and photographing. I did not really enjoy any of it (well except the lesbian), this was all circumstantial and I have no problems relating to people in new and exciting ways.

My beef with the LGBTQ's doesn't lie within gender identity but the extreme radical political baggage that usually comes along with it. BE GAY - cool, but then you got the anarchism, veganism, un-patriotic, anti-capatilist, hate everything in society mishmash of over bearing naive radical ideologies that mostly always fizzles out in your 30's. I've had confrontations fit to make a whole new season of Portlandia!!! So there we go, you can be a a tranny but, just I still might think your an asshole.