The Pronouns Thread

[Jimmy Beans]

Defending that asshole's right to their asshole opinions is how i get to legitimately demand the same right to speak freely for myself.

And of course this is a privately run form, and the First Amendment has nothing to do with how the owners and mods choose to run this place.

But it would be a sad day indeed (at least in my mind) when "anarchists" start agreeing that its OK telling folks what they can, and cannot, say.

I hate to break it to ya but that sad day came a long time ago and I don't think to many of us here are all that sad about it, never were. It's all right here in the upper portion of the site rules. So while many of the folks here identify as anarchists, there's definitely some sort of misunderstanding when it comes to what that means. Or maybe it means different things to different folks, idk. But I think around here what it doesn't mean is no rules/no rulers.

It doesn't mean we have to put up with everyone's shit. If someone is being a racist or homophobic or hateful towards a group of people or even an individual, we'll shut that shit down if we want to. You don't get to drop slurs at people unchecked, that doesn't fly here. Also, I personally don't identify as an anarchist. I don't imagine I'm the only one on this site that feels that way.

I definitely like a lot of what anarchism is about but I don't call myself an anarchist. So it's really not "anarchists agreeing that its OK telling folks what they can, and cannot, say." when you have numerous folks who don't 100% identify as anarchists here. We're just people, man. There's absolutely no way to generalize us all as any one certain thing other than people, I believe we're all people. We can't all be held to one particular ideology, you shouldn't hold us to any certain set of expectations other than what's written here and here.

 

[feralautistic]

i am indeed an anarchist, and J Lupo is right that anarchists i've known don't particularly worry about people telling others to shut up. if verbally encouraging people to not talk is suppressing free speech, then we're all guilty of that.

 

[benton]

It's not that you shouldn't be allowed to speak, it's that you grew up in an inherently transphobic culture and should have the decency to listen to what trans people are saying to you instead of being a willfully uninformed dickhead.

those are opinions, and one is either inclined to agree with them or not, and whether this is good or bad is a matter of perspective

thankfully I live in a country that protects my right to express my views, which is why I would never call for your views to be silenced, or to discourage you from speaking for any reason whatsoever

We can have free speech and so-called hate speech, or we can get rid of free speech. Getting rid of free speech in the US will require the citizens to change the Constitution. Obviously the administrators of this message board get to decide what they will allow and won't allow. Myself, I'm the type that if you ask me not to address certain topics here I will probably abide by that given a choice.

I can tell you this. None of you will ever speak for me. Saying that I grew up in an inherently transphobic culture is ridiculous nonsense in my view. It was certainly homophobic. Transphobic? Nope. Why? Because we were all too ignorant to know what that meant. I'm from the olden days, and shit was a lot different back then. I was born in 1975 but it might as well have been 1955. We have seen a lot of changes in a short amount of time.

I've got no problem bowing out of this thread, and if you read my posts you may notice that I make no attempts to convince, persuade, or change peoples' views. It is my belief that people are either convinced or they are not, and this is something they do. Sadly, many do it to conform to people with authoritarian personality traits. I see several posts that I interpret as "that's the wrong viewpoint, here's the right viewpoint, and those who persist in the wrong viewpoint will be demeaned, dehumanized, ridiculed, and shunned." Which is fine with me, because I'm a hermit misanthrope who likes to be alone most of the time. But in the good ol USA under free speech, what you don't yet get to do is behave this way without some "dickhead" like me pointing out exactly what you are doing. (I realize I myself was not called a "dickhead" ).

I was literally subjected to brainwashing by a mind control cult (the Jehovah's Witnesses). One of their songs says "We're Jehovah's Witnesses / We speak out in fearlessness." So please understand that I was trained and brainwashed from the age of 2 to use all of my interactions to try to get people to become Jehovah's Witness cult members. I have gotten rid of most of the programming however the "speak out in fearlessness" part remains.

If I know something to be true and feel the need to address the topic, I am going to speak the truth REGARDLESS of how anyone claims it affects them. Period. If you tell me not to speak a certain way or say a certain thing that I know to be true because it will harm members of a group, I am still going to speak it, and that it not going to change until I draw my last breath and my heart stops beating.

In my opinion, this message board should go ahead and start censoring certain unpopular views because I think that's the way its headed, and it is my belief that amongst misfit travelers you are always going to have some people who are unwilling to conform. Question: What are you rebelling against? Answer: What have you got? I don't have to get with the new shit if I don't want to, and if you don't like it, that's your problem not mine.

 

[dumpster harpy]

You're too ignorant to understand what transphobia means, but have no problem touting freeze peach to continue engaging in it, as if your bigoted contrarian worldview was objective fact?

Go get fitted for some clown shoes.

 

[benton]

Ridicule is not a valid debate tactic, and I always know I've "won" when the personal attacks and name calling begin.

If you remove the word "contrarian" from your description I would assert that it applies neatly to my perception of your worldview.

Anyways, I'm gonna go ahead and declare victory and move along. If any of my actual arguments are ever refuted (and they won't be), please let me know.

Lastly, I am disinclined to acquiesce to your request.

 

[dumpster harpy]

Wow congrats on your victory and being the smartest guy in the room.

What some people can't seem to grasp is that this isn't some debate, this isn't some theoretical discussion happening in a vacuum.

You are talking about me. You are talking about us.

And again, when a person of the minority group you're running your mouth about tells you that you're being a bigoted asshole, you probably are, and should just maybe consider checking your ego and listening, even if it makes you uncomfortable to consider that you are being hurtful to others.

 

[dumpster harpy]

That you're approaching a discussion about how to respectfully address trans people as a debate for you to win says a lot.

 

[salxtina]

@Lupo The Pronouns Thread | Squat the Planet - https://squattheplanet.com/threads/the-pronouns-thread.39325/post-286087 and first post on page 4 and tenth post on page 4 and seventh post on page 5?

 

[benton]

Wow congrats on your victory and being the smartest guy in the room.

What some people can't seem to grasp is that this isn't some debate, this isn't some theoretical discussion happening in a vacuum.

You are talking about me. You are talking about us.

And again, when a person of the minority group you're running your mouth about tells you that you're being a bigoted asshole, you probably are, and should just maybe consider checking your ego and listening, even if it makes you uncomfortable to consider that you are being hurtful to others.

I can tell you that I'm imagining a pink elephant. I cannot prove to you that I am imagining a pink elephant. It's the same with feelings and being offended. It comes down to whether or not I am willing to take someone's word for it.

I reject outright the notion that by living my life and expressing my views I am causing harm to others. I believe I asked earlier in the thread for this to be demonstrated and it didn't happen. I am not taking your word for it. You've got to "show your work" as I have done with respect to the views I have espoused in this thread.

Assuming for a moment that I'm "the smartest person in the room" (and certainly I am not), do you really think I got that way by feeding my ego and refusing to listen to people. You have no idea what I do with respect to my ego and no idea what I do or do not listen to. Its funny how people who seem to reject being told what to do and complain about being mistreated by society are so quick to call me names, attack me personally, speak to my experience, and give me orders. Who are you to tell me what to do? I'm not in here telling you what to do. Didn't a bunch of us choose to live the way we live in part because we reject the notion of being told what to do? By what power and authority do you issue commands and give dictates?

You can absolutely get many weak people who don't think for themselves and are easily led to follow your views and use ridicule, shame, and personal attacks to keep in line any of those who begin to stray from the currently accepted worldview. What you can't do is effectively use those same techniques on someone like me. "Never wrestle a pig, you both get muddy, and the pig likes it." I love to fight and I have no history of physical violence. This is the kind of fight that I like. I can do this all day.

The names you call me and your characterizations of the views (your opinions) I have expressed in this thread reflect on you, not me. Weak people who don't think for themselves can be convinced that I am what you say I am, but what is the relevance of that?

"You are talking about me. You are talking about us." I lack the wiring to be motivated or swayed by such an emotional and melodramatic statement. I understand that many people are wired to respond in specific ways to such a plea. However, I am not one of them. That's what I mean when I say I'm not into feelings. That statement just seems absolutely ridiculous to me. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard.

I've been running my mouth for 44 years and no one has managed to shut it yet. I don't expect it to be happening anytime soon. They might ban me from this message board and they might decide to censor many of the ideas that I have presented. I have no power over that. It's gonna be one way or the other here, though. I can guarantee it. Either people will be able to speak freely here or it will be a safe space where certain views are prohibited. It cannot and will not be both.

 

[dumpster harpy]

So someone (multiple someones, about whom you are speaking) tells you that you are being hurtful, and your response is to plug your ears and go "lalala no I'm not!" and then turn around and act like a victim because someone tells you that you're being a jerk and not listening?

Incredible...

 

[dumpster harpy]

Pleading with you to understand that you're negatively affecting trans people sounds like nails on a chalkboard?

My worldview is bigoted because I'm telling you that you're being a bigot? Seriously?

Is asshole even namecalling at this point?

 

[benton]

If I feel like you are bullying me, does that mean that you are in fact a bully?

A straight yes or no answer is preferred if possible.

Also, please demonstrate to me specifically and in as detailed a manner as possible how it is that I am negatively affecting transpeople. And if in the same manner I demonstrate that you are negatively affecting me, do you agree to adjust your speech and behaviors so as to avoid affecting me negatively in the future? (or do you wish for me to extend to you a courtesy that you are unwilling to extend to me?)

 

[Older Than Dirt]

I hate to break it to ya but that sad day came a long time ago and I don't think to many of us here are all that sad about it, never were. It's all right here in the upper portion of the site rules. So while many of the folks here identify as anarchists, there's definitely some sort of misunderstanding when it comes to what that means. Or maybe it means different things to different folks, idk. But I think around here what it doesn't mean is no rules/no rulers.

Yeah, i get all that, that was what i meant by saying "And of course this is a privately run form, and the First Amendment has nothing to do with how the owners and mods choose to run this place."

The site rules rules don't seem to be enforced very evenhandedly, since some folks are privileged to call others "assholes", "willfully ignorant dickheads", "jerks", say others should "shut the fuck up" etc., though, but it's your site and you are free to run it as you choose.

My saying "But it would be a sad day indeed (at least in my mind) when 'anarchists' start agreeing that its OK telling folks what they can, and cannot, say" was not directed at forum mods or owners, but at @feralautistic , who identifies as an anarchist (and who i rather like- a promising and clever young person), and others who do identify that way:

i am indeed an anarchist

I've been an anarchist for a very long time, and it is truly painful to me to hear folks mock "free speech", like this

freeze peach

I would suggest that Comrades @feralautistic and @dumpster harpy might benefit from reading up a bit on anarchist history, particularly the role of the "Free Speech Fights" in IWW organizing. They might not be so quick to mock the right to think and speak freely.

I know times change, and the meanings of words change over time. Still, it's strange for me personally when young folks adopt aspects of my life and identity, like "punk" and "anarchism", but don't seem to understand what those things meant to us, or when these ideas are used to mean something quite different to what they meant in the past.

"Ignorance of your culture is not considered cool", as The Residents put it.

Why identify with a very old concept like "anarchism", when you clearly reject the most central aspect of anarchist thought (freedom, rebellion, refusing to be told what to do) as a core value? Generations of folks who fought and died for the black flag you want to wrap around speech policing, and thought control, are rolling over in their graves. Of course, anyone is free to call themselves whatever they want, and i get that calling yourself an anarchist is very trendy these days (it sure never was before in my life).

Do feel free to mock me for being old- it might happen to you too someday of course.

I can't imagine i have much else to say on the topic here, and i'm tired of having abuse directed at me for my thoughts, so i will gratify some and "shut the fuck up" about this topic.

 

[Deleted member 24782]

No offense I love you all but damn this is all starting to remind me of those dreadful house meetings I had to attend for the 9 months I lived in Portland. I want to contribute more to the discussion but I'm starting to feel depressed about it.

But just so it's clear to everyone @benton has declared victory.

 

[dumpster harpy]

so me telling someone that they're being a jerk, asshole, or dickhead (when they're being transphobic in a thread about respectful pronoun usage) is me abusing and policing them?

like everyone can come in here spouting off whatever offensive shit but when someone affected by it says they are being a jerk (god forbid), now they're being policed, silenced, and abused?

@Older Than Dirt
free speech protects you from the government, not from the people. do you believe Nazis should speak and spread their views freely? do you think we can debate them away?

You are a product of a transphobic society, and if you can't even start respecting us enough to consider listening when told you are being a jerk, if you need to be convinced through debate of every time you hurt someone's feelings, or that your treatment of trans people is contigent on their not calling you on your shit, then you're not my fucking comrade.

I think maybe it's you who needs to learn more about anarchism, old man...



Oh and also congrats to benton

 

[Jimmy Beans]

#DragonBreath over here spittin fire. God damn! Again, can we try to keep the tone a little less aggressive? This entire thread has become a huge dumpster fire and I suspect if it continues this shit might get locked. I don't know if that's what everyone wants or not. I'm kind of for it at this point. Nobody's coming around from their way of thinking, nobody is budging. It's just unfriendly jostling back and forth at one another.

I agree with a lot of what you said in that last post @dumpster harpy but I'm not 100% convinced @Older Than Dirt is transphobic. Can we talk about the very definition of transphobia? I'm just some "CIS" jackass so I really don't know what it means other than what the definition of the word states; Transphobia - Dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

See, I just don't get that impression from Older Than Dirt. To me it seems like he's mentioned having friends that are trans, he's mentioned employing trans people at one point in his life, he hasn't really come out and said anything directly about trans people that comes off as dislike or prejudice, right? I'm sure someone will disagree.

What I'm seeing is more of a "Don't tell me how to speak, don't tell me how I feel. Definitely don't tell me to not speak at all". And I'm gonna go out on a limb here and even make the assumption he probably addresses trans people how they want to be addressed in his everyday life. I get the feeling he respects them that much, maybe I'm wrong. Am I wrong? Idk.. but again.. please try to keep calm, everyone. This thing is way too turnt up.

 

[dumpster harpy]

That's pretty fair. I'm not saying @Older Than Dirt is consciously transphobic or out to get anyone. What I'm trying to say is that much like how people can unintentionally engage in racism without being Nazis, a lot of people perpetuate transphobic attitudes even if they don't mean to (eg: railing about biological sex essentialism, saying faggot and tranny when they don't apply to you, etc)

so @Older Than Dirt, I'm not trying to paint you as a villain, I'm sorry for calling you a dickhead, and I'm asking you to consider what I and other trans people are saying to you, and to consider that your assertions of censorship and thought policing might be a little extreme in the context of upset marginalized people talking to you in a way that you don't like after you've offended them.


edit: also can I change my title to #DragonBreath?

 

[Deleted member 24782]

Yeah this thread is going to shit and getting real competitive. Let us all not forget Seymours line from Ghost World:

"People still hate each other. I guess they just know how to hide it better."

Let's face it, hate is less socially acceptable these days, but it doesn't mean we all still have some hate in our hearts, we are only human, well except for @benton, he's been declared THE VICTOR!!!!!

 

[Beegod Santana]

On use of the word cis (to bring it back a little) I just wanna say this:

Wayy back (2004) when I first had someone refer to me that way it was as a negative and I had the same reaction a lot of people had here, I did not like it. First, it sounds like the sound I make when I correct a dog, not pleasant to the ears. Second, I, like a lot of people here have never felt like I fit in with mainstream society and was not happy to be grouped in with all the other assholes out there. Like, I might be cis, but I don't feel like I have much in common with the stereotype most people imagine when they think "average cis male."

These days though I use it all the time without even thinking about it. Why? Cause when you're talking to/or about trans people it is actually a lot easier than saying "not-trans" or "biological sex." Literally rolls off the tongue easier, try it. Also, like we talked about earlier it's used a lot in agriculture studies cause there's plenty of plants that are normally hermaphroditic or trans (change their sex over time) and the cis variations are the exceptions. Yes humans are "normally" "cis", but that not true all throughout nature, and there's almost always exceptions to the rules, so please cut it with the "natural law" nonsense.

 

[salxtina]

Lupo - I linked to the specific posts like you asked, and being calm while people act like one's basic rights are a fun theoretical debate, is actually really, really inappropriate. Not least because people can stay PERFECTLY DAMN CALM while reinforcing a dominant culture of transphobia, public hostility, the hiring and housing and med care discrimination that involves, on and on and on. Also calling people dickheads is way more lenient a response than is called for, to calling trans people confused, calling people ignorant for not consenting to do unpaid research work as a prerequisite for respect, and so on.

Also - Every time we foster a culture where people's existence is always debatable, less and less of us find it possible or worth our time to use the space for the kind of communication that happens among allies, accomplices and fellow-travelers. The degree to which this has already happened is pretty huge. (Ironically - the non-lgbt men crying "censorship" can't possibly mean real censorship - with arrests, loss of jobs, housing, or the right to run their mouth on the street. The only possible backlash they might have to cry about, is this social chilling effect, a cultural space becoming less inviting to them! But it's not happening to them! It's only happening to us!)