The Pronouns Thread

[Matt Derrick]

This seems like a good time to address the "t-word": TESTOSTERONE.

I have seen mention in this thread and other places the idea that I am a boy/man because when I was born, a doctor observed my genitals and declared "it's a boy!" and by implication I was socialized to behave as a male in society because of this declaration when perhaps if left to my own devices I would have behaved differently. This is my understanding of the idea and may not be wholly correct. I certainly acknowledge the reality in which some behavior is shaped and influenced to varying degrees by the people around us and society at large.

As an aside, not everyone is born in a hospital. Especially if we are talking worldwide and not just the US.

As a biological male who identifies strongly as male and always has, I would assert that the much greater reason for this than a doctor looking at my junk and saying some words is the fact that I was flooded with testosterone in the womb and when I went thru puberty my testicles began producing large amounts of testosterone, and this hasn't stopped even to this day at the age of 44 (yes I've had my levels checked).

When humans compete with one another, many factors contribute to who ends up being victorious. It is my assertion that the most relevant factor in competition is testosterone. We can talk about society and environment and how expectations shape behavior and all of that. What we can't do is point to a biological female world chess champion, or a biological female who is the best poker player in the world (there are certainly many top biological female chess players and poker players, of course).

We are not going to see a biological female world chess champion, and we are not going to see a biological female become the best in the world at poker. (In fact, in the history of the World Series of Poker I think a woman has only made the Main Event final table once, and the WSOP ME Champ isn't necessarily considered the best player in the world).

There will never be a biological female Bobby Fischer or Garry Kasparov because biological females cannot produce enough testosterone to defeat top biological male players. This is not my opinion - it is the reality.

I've also heard a few different places that someone's friend who is trans and is taking testosterone "has more testosterone than a biological male." Yeah, the weak girly men perhaps.

There is no crossover in testosterone levels between biological males and biological females. Assuming everyone is healthy with respect to their endocrine systems, the biological males who make the least testosterone will have exponentially higher levels than the biological females who make the most testosterone.

Testosterone levels for biological males are wide: something like between 250 ng/dl and 1000 ng/dl. A biological female who supplements testosterone to produce levels at the upper end of the normal biological male range is going to experience harmful side effects. Whereas biological males at the upper end will not because their bodies are naturally producing large amounts of testosterone.

So a biological female can take all the testosterone she wants and she will never have as much in her bloodstream on a consistent basis as I do, and the high levels are good for my health and bad for hers.

P.S. I think saying "biological males are stronger than biological females" is not specific enough. There are absolutely ways in which biological females are stronger than biological males. For example, there was a 250 mile footrace and a biological female won the race by 10 hours. Also, I am not a scientist but it is my understanding that biological females have stronger blood-brain barriers than biological males.

What does any of this have to do with the subject of this thread?

 

[salxtina]

Most of what could occupy an "ask trans people" thread has either been answered a million times already, so maybe ask an archivist/librarian/educator/search engine, or is best screened by the asked first asking them self, "Is this any of my business at all?"

 

[Older Than Dirt]

@salxtina - It's the craziest thing, i know, but sometimes, when folks are invited to talk about a thing, say on an internet discussion forum, sometimes they talk about that thing. Nutty and inappropriate, i know, but what can you do?

And, since as you point out, there have been lots of threads here about trans issues, is it possible your problems with this thread aren't so much with folks talking about trans issues, but people who say things you don't like talking about this stuff?

i guess in your ideal world, only people who agree with you would be allowed to speak? And of course you would be in charge of deciding whose business it is to discuss any topic?

 

[dumpster harpy]

It's not that you shouldn't be allowed to speak, it's that you grew up in an inherently transphobic culture and should have the decency to listen to what trans people are saying to you instead of being a willfully uninformed dickhead.

 

[roughdraft]

It's not that you shouldn't be allowed to speak, it's that you grew up in an inherently transphobic culture and should have the decency to listen to what trans people are saying to you instead of being a willfully uninformed dickhead.

isn't it you that's lacking decency to slam people for being "willfully uninformed <insert reducing someone to a single body part here>" when they genuinely inquire about something, maybe just maybe with the intent to understand?

 

[dumpster harpy]

Is that what you think is happening?

 

[roughdraft]

all i think is that *maybe* you're biased and oughta give people outside of LGBTQ culture a chance to learn instead of assuming everyone is out to diminish transfolk

 

[dumpster harpy]

and all I'm saying is that the opportunity to learn is everywhere and no one is keeping you from it. but the society we live in is inherently transphobic, and regardless of intention a lot of the shit cis people say about trans people and trans issues is fucked up. and so when someone pulls this condescending 'trans people are policing me' argumentative bullshit when people tell them that they're being jerks, I've already given them more than a chance, and can't really say more than stop being an asshole.

 

[Older Than Dirt]

@dumpster harpy - Well, i have been listening to what trans, and other, people have been saying, and have done a fair amount of reading to learn more about issues raised here. I have actually learned a bit, something you might want to consider, comrade.

So i may well be uninformed, but it's not sure not willful. And i certainly have not beeen abusive or posted anything like your posts.

Once more time, the only people using abusive language here have been trans folks towards us non-trans folk who dare question their authority to control and determine our speech, and thoughts.

I'm pretty sure i'd be banned in a heartbeat if i used equally abusive, sexually-charged language towards a trans person in this thread (not that i have any inclination to do this, this is a hypothetical statement).

Of course calling me a "willfully uninformed dickhead" is totally cool because , um, why again?

i know it's totally cool because i've already been called an "asshole" etc. in this thread, and mods are cool with it. Double standards much?

oh, @dumpster harpy called me an "asshole" and a "jerk" too, while i was typing this. Nice.

 

[feralautistic]

@Older Than Dirt I don't think you recognize how much the things you say hurt trans people. believe it or not, this thread would be less painful to read if it was full of people calling me an asshole rather than full of transmisogyny

 

[Older Than Dirt]

I just reread my last few posts after reading what you said, @feralautistic .

Can you please identify the things i have said that are "full of transmisogyny"? Because i think that is a pretty false statement. I am glad to hear you don't think i hate trans men as well, or did you just forget to say that?

I have no wish to be hurtful, and no ill-will towards trans folks, and certainly have not posted anything here out of any desire to make anyone feel bad. i haven't known many trans folks at all well, maybe four or five in my life, but i've liked all i've known, which is a lot more than i can say about heterosexuals, gay men, or lesbians.

i'm pretty sure you know there are a lot of people who really do hate trans folks. Conflating me, a person ready to fight for your rights and life any old time, with them may not be the most useful strategy?

 

[Jimmy Beans]

@Older Than Dirt Yeah just to be clear, mods aren't cool with @dumpster harpy calling you a dickhead, asshole or jerk. That begins to come off like a one sided flame war which is definitely against the rules. It was stated by OP on the first page and stated again by a mod that we need to keep this civil and it's been repeated since then as well. And besides, name calling is pretty immature and counter productive if you're trying to help someone learn.

I won't pretend to act like I understand why people are upset because I haven't walked in those shoes to truly understand how hard it's gotta be. But I definitely understand that people are upset and I don't blame you for being upset. I think given the way this thread has gone.. it's fair to be upset with both some of the contributors and also [USERGROUP=17]@Staff[/USERGROUP] because we probably haven't collectively handled this with absolute non-bias, dude it's a fucking hard position to play.

First of all, staff are numerous different people, we're all individuals. So that's already a challenge, we're not all going to feel the exact same way about practically anything. Maybe similar opinions but unlikely identical opinions/stances across the board. Also, we don't get paid for this I'm not sure if anyone realizes that or not. We're just trying to do the best we can. Some threads are a breeze, some are daunting AF like this one.

We have people in this discussion on one side who have been marginalized and tortured, I mean even killed just for being the person they are. Who are told they're wrong, they're disrespected and ridiculed by a huge percentage of the general population. So duh, they're going to be pissed off about some shit. I can't even blame em. If someone told me it was wrong for me to be me I'd be all sorts of protesting that bullshit.

Then there's some people on the other side of this discussion who are coming off as though they're not even open to the possibility of allowing their opinions to change even if a strong argument has been made that opposes their own, they're just not budging. You need to get off this thread entirely if you're not willing to accept the possibility that some of your views might not be as awesome as you've thought up until now. Open up your mind or close the fucking thread.

Can we just try to be a little more patient, on all sides here? Nobody HAS to participate in this discussion. So stop yourself before you make your comment, perhaps reread what you've written and ask yourself is this on topic? Is this contributing to the discussion? Have I insulted anyone or called them names? Is there another way I can call someone out on their shit without being so harsh. Also remember the subject is about pronouns, I think that's important. People are getting way off target.

Take it down a couple notches, everyone. <3

 

[feralautistic]

I just reread my last few posts after reading what you said, @feralautistic .

Can you please identify the things i have said that are "full of transmisogyny"? Because i think that is a pretty false statement. I am glad to hear you don't think i hate trans men as well, or did you just forget to say that?

I have no wish to be hurtful, and no ill-will towards trans folks, and certainly have not posted anything here out of any desire to make anyone feel bad. i haven't known many trans folks at all well, maybe four or five in my life, but i've liked all i've known, which is a lot more than i can say about heterosexuals, gay men, or lesbians.

i'm pretty sure you know there are a lot of people who really do hate trans folks. Conflating me, a person ready to fight for your rights and life any old time, with them may not be the most useful strategy?

to clarify: you're far from the worst here, i don't think you're especially transmisogynistic compared to many people. it's just that the entirety of society is transphobic and transmisogynistic. when trans people are hurt it's just business as usual, a difference of opinions. "a difference of opinions" can mean anything, are all opinions okay?

i've been very rude in this thread, but that's the level of discourse i was reading. you seem to consider my words more offensive than your own. i disagree, i think they're probably about the same. (and i've certainly been kinder than necessary to others here!) there are people who want to learn, and there are people who want to show off opinions they already have. i find that being rude reveals what people actually think....

 

[Older Than Dirt]

@feralautistic - thanx i guess, "far from the worst" i'll settle for.

Yes, of course "all opinions are OK", or rather yeah some opinions suck, but even the worst, most moronic, evil assholes on earth have a right to their opinions and to express them with words.

"The remedy for bad speech is more speech". Shutting up folks with "bad opinions" has seldom gone well.

Leaving aside the Nazis, Stalin etc, for many years in the US censorship laws were used to suppress information about sexuality, birth control etc.

When feminist legal scholar Katherine Mackinnon convinced Canada to pass obscenity laws based on her "porn is violence against women" theory, the first people prosecuted were gay and lesbian publishers.

When i got called a faggot in school, my mom reminded me "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me".

Yeah, i'm heterosexual, but that never stopped homophobic assholes calling me "long-haired faggot" until i cut my hair in 1977, and became a "punk-rock faggot". I've also been beaten down by four young Mafia wannabes with bats for being a "gay boy". Fortunately i have a very thick skull.

 

[salxtina]

Mods - If I wrote saying that it should be accepted for me to write (generic racial slur) here, would I simply be asked to stop, or would that content be removed? I think the latter has often been done - Can we apply the same standard here, so our most-prominent conversation about trans rights that lgbt people using the space see, isn't full of one of the most common epithets used by bashers/abusers/etc?

 

[feralautistic]

wow, it's really sobering to realize that I've been preventing people from expressing their opinions. I guess that's why nobody's been arguing with me.

seriously though, do you actually believe me saying mean things is equivalent to state censorship?

 

[Older Than Dirt]

@salxtina - Which transphobic "epithets" are those again, that this thread is "full of"?

Who has argued that "it should be accepted for [them] to write" transphobic slurs here?

Oh, right, no one at all.

Straw man much?

@feralautistic - of course you saying obnoxious things is not equivalent to state censorship. But some (including you) have said non-trans people should shut the fuck up, and stop "arguing with you".

Telling others to shut up and that they have no right to speak means you agree it's OK to make folks shut up when they say things someone doesn't like- so you're just arguing with Nazis and Stalinists about content, but you agree with their methods- you just wish you were in charge of the Speech Police.

I know freedom of speech isn't held in the same reverence among younger lefty folk as it is among us old commies/anarchs, but maybe that's because we grew up with a lot more experience of our speech being suppressed?

 

[Jimmy Beans]

Mods - If I wrote saying that it should be accepted for me to write (generic racial slur) here, would I simply be asked to stop, or would that content be removed? I think the latter has often been done - Can we apply the same standard here, so our most-prominent conversation about trans rights that lgbt people using the space see, isn't full of one of the most common epithets used by bashers/abusers/etc?

I'm a little unclear on exactly what you're trying to point out. Can you give an example or two by using the quoting feature, thanks.

 

[feralautistic]

@Older Than Dirt you're making stuff up at this point. come on, we're posting on a forum, i'm not going to send the trans police to your house. i just think you're embarrassing yourself.

 

[Older Than Dirt]

@feralautistic - Obviously. And equally obviously trans folks will not attain state power any time soon.

But your posts do not reveal any very great understanding of the dangers of telling folks to "shut the fuck up".

I am happy to embarrass myself sticking up for the absolute freedom of any asshole to express their opinions any day of the week.

Defending that asshole's right to their asshole opinions is how i get to legitimately demand the same right to speak freely for myself.

And of course this is a privately run form, and the First Amendment has nothing to do with how the owners and mods choose to run this place. It's private property after all.

But it would be a sad day indeed (at least in my mind) when "anarchists" start agreeing that its OK telling folks what they can, and cannot, say.