Feminism discuss

[katbastard]

as far as i have been able to gather this flyer is from around 92 or 93 and it was bikini kill.

 

[katbastard]

http://articles.timesofindia.indiat...kistan/28034945_1_police-constable-khalil-car

http://www.aest.org.uk/survivors/male/myths_about_male_rape.htm

 

[Puckett]

Men are hardly ever the victims of a sexual crime and if they are its generally by other men.

I disagree. Why? because i rape men, well i rape one man. every chance i get.

And for the women who become feminist they probably have gone threw something that made them that way. But its like if you go to a punk show you should know what goes on there and not think just cuz your a girl people will take it easy on you in the pit. shit dosnt work like that. I have been busted up many times and busted other men and women up in the pit. But i knew what i was getting into when i went in. Life isnt rainbows and sunshine its broken noses and black eyes.

 

[xbocax]

As we all know men are MUCH less likely to report rape or sexual abuse, I don't need a statistic to prove that.
I have helped several people with the aftermath of rape and sexual abuse over time. I know it ain't pretty. Also as a white male I've had to defend myself from sexual assault many times over my life. Once the person I was defending myself against was a female member of my extended family (it was 11yrs old vs. 41). Also the US bureau of justice statistics doesn't take in to account prison rape.

I feel my statement is relevant because not one female who responded seemed to agree with the girl who wrote this rant, but you seemed to feel that you where somehow qualified to represent a woman's viewpoint on the matter because you spent a lot of time hanging out with your "lady friends."

So now you don't go by statistics?
Although I do agree
How much do you think the statistics would honestly change if every male were to confess they were a victim?
Do you not believe there are also many females that do not speak out of their rape?
you don't have to have any statistics to figure out the statistics would still be fairly similar to how they are now
I have female friends who were sexually assaulted by males, males by males, males by females and with me as with the statistics it always weighs out the same.
I was near close to being sexually assaulted when I was a toddler by a local teenage boy but was able to get away so this is not a subject to far from home.
and like i said even if every single female male w/e on STP didnt agree with this posting does not mean that, that there arent a vast amount of females having to deal with these issues else where
look at the stats
look outside your bubble
and try to be aware that just because you have not seen or been apart of it there are others in struggles that you may never know but do exist

 

[Beegod Santana]

look outside your bubble
and try to be aware that just because you have not seen or been apart of it there are others in struggles that you may never know but do exist

I love that you're the one making statements like "Men are hardly ever the victims of a sexual crime and if they are its generally by other men." and "I who have spent much time with my lady friends know how many times a horn gets honked, glare gets thrown, a hand accidentally grazes" but somehow I'm the one stuck in my own little bubble.

Sounds to me like someone's trying to accuse me of small mindedness to cover for his own hasty and offensive statements.

 

[trash diver]

The human race has overcomplicated sexuallity. Science tells us we are primates. The bonobo chimpanzee has a very unique social structure. Sex is used to strenghthen bonds and form alliances,not only between males and females, but between chimps of the same sex. Aggression and violence is very rare,even amoung rival males.

 

[plagueship]

Also, denying that the pattern of behavior being complained about either doesn't exist or isn't that important either because you identify with the group of people being criticized or you aren't part of the group experiencing the shit-end of it, is fucking stupid so shut the fuck up.
All I see in these threads is denial and defensiveness

huh, that's funny because i didn't say that or anything like it, it has almost nothing to do with what i ACTUALLY said - if you knew how to read the english language - and you're not addressing anything i said except with "STFU". i specifically said i don't identify with the people being criticized - macho punk dudes - and that i experience the shit end of their behavior as well. i said i don't think saying that boys and parents are bad either helps the situation, or is in any way mature, intelligent, or logical, not that you seem to be any of those things yourself. again, sorry to anyone who has eyes in their head and a working grasp of the english language and noticed that i already said this once.

I eventually let go of the idea that I needed to understand everyones complaints and perspectives on everything before I started to respect them. It doesn't fucking mattter if I completely relate to a complaint or not in order for me to do what is within reason to try to fix it. It's that simple.

totally. are you suggesting that i mosh peoples faces in and grab boobs at shows? because , once again, as i said i usually just stand in the back. i'm not sure what else i'm supposed to do to "fix" a dysfunctional culture like punk rock which is part of a dysfunctional society/world. apparently your idea of fixing things is telling people who sympathize with you that they're pieces of shit on the internet. cool dude, i guess you are one of the "good boys" after all....

 

[Gudj]

totally. are you suggesting that i mosh peoples faces in and grab boobs at shows? because , once again, as i said i usually just stand in the back. i'm not sure what else i'm supposed to do to "fix" a dysfunctional culture like punk rock which is part of a dysfunctional society/world. apparently your idea of fixing things is telling people who sympathize with you that they're pieces of shit on the internet. cool dude, i guess you are one of the "good boys" after all....

No. I am saying that I am aware that the bulk of the problem is much much more common and much much more subtle than "moshing peoples faces or grabbing boobs". That would be an easy situation to take care of relatively speaking. A much harder situation to take care of is living in a world where most every interaction is framed by patriarchy. That's the point that people are missing. If you aren't guilty of obnoxiously obvious things like "grabbing boobs", then you pat yrself on the back and think you are off the hook. That isn't the deal.

Oh, and I've said it before: Fuck punk culture. I don't want to fix it, I want it to be gone. If these things only happened at punk shows I would hardly care. But they happen everywhere. Patriarchy is in all of us all the time.

 

[saje2u]

Women are meant to the the property and disposal of men.

 

[Mouse]

book suggestion - Pretty In Punk.

As women, we are fully aware that we have joined a male dominated subculture... you take what comes. Only the strongest survive... the rest go Rockabilly.

 

[plagueship]

well, it's a flyer about gendered behavior at punk shows.... obviously i realize it isn't just about those 2 hypothetical actions i mentioned in a somewhat tongue-in-cheek manner, and there is nothing subtle about the flyer. you haven't explained how attacking men/parents counteracts the 'subtle social framework of patriarchy', but w/e.

this is the point i'm always trying to make and you never hear it. it's no good to project a politics that is just a mirror image or sort of photographic negative of everything we dislike about the existing world. it doesn't even help your cause. it just helps you feel self righteous. instead of recognizing that feminists can be assholes and say things that really don't either make sense or help the cause of equality you just scream about how everyone who has anything to say other than 100% agreement with these kinds of reactionary identity politics is a fucked up patriarch. you didn't even admit that your first reply to me made NO sense whatsoever. i'm glad your second one made a bit more.

sorry if i'm overpersonalizing it but i think you and the flyer exemplify some of these tendencies in punk politics. i used to partake in similar attitudes and behaviors until i realized how counterproductive it was. the enemy of my enemy is not my friend, etc.

 

[acrata4ever]

book suggestion - Pretty In Punk.

As women, we are fully aware that we have joined a male dominated subculture... you take what comes. Only the strongest survive... the rest go Rockabilly.

yes but its only dominated by male artists because the industry is run by the lavender mafia. self production and the internet is a way of avoiding the casting couch. and hence even more shit music on the air shouved down idiots throats until theyre brainwashed that they actually like it. nobody even wants to play instruments anymore just sing through vocoders and jump around like idiots to a robot band lip sync. music is dead its all fabricated now like the old bubblegum/monkees and shit. artistic control my ass, you cant be yourself sucking corperate dick its not allowed.

 

[xbocax]

i can acknowledge anything whether it be male dominance or white privilege that doesnt mean i have to accept it

 

[Puckett]

i can acknowledge anything whether it be male dominance or white privilege that doesnt mean i have to accept it

you really want to get into the whole "white privilege" shit again.

 

[xbocax]

simply examples ;]

 

[Gudj]

instead of recognizing that feminists can be assholes and say things that really don't either make sense or help the cause of equality you just scream about how everyone who has anything to say other than 100% agreement with these kinds of reactionary identity politics is a fucked up patriarch.

I didn't know I was supposed to be talking about how feminists can be assholes.
I thought I was supposed to be talking about how a male dominated scene within male dominated culture sucks, especially for those who are on the side most immediately negatively effected by it.

I know the people you are talking about who blindly accept everyone identity politics and are hella reactionary to anyone to might make them uncomfortable in the least. I am not that person. The reason you only ever see me on the side of the original poster is because the only threads that come up on here are unapologetic and dismissive towards groups who are trying to tell the rest of us something. For example, if there was a thread started that was about how all primitivists are anti-trans, or about how eating meat is comparable to rape, or something else like that, you would probably find me much more agreeable. But the fact of the matter is that the majority of people who comment on these threads is just trying to detract from and dismiss a serious topic because of their own insecurities, or conservatism. In that case I will take the side of the person trying to be heard, so long as what they're saying isn't simply false (like the vegan thing).

 

[Puckett]

simply examples ;]

simply retarded.

you talk like you know everything in the whole fucking world. "oh like i so have a piercing so i know all there is to know about that", "oh im kinda tan so i know everything about being discriminated against.", "oh i hang out with chicks so i know all about feminism".

simply examples ;]

 

[plagueship]

ok, so just to drop some science here, the original post was just the flyer and the words "feminism discuss" and op's reaction to it. so i assumed an implied punctuation mark and thought along the lines of "(here is an instance of punk-relevant) feminism (that i had some thoughts about; let's) discuss (it)" or perhaps "(is this) feminism? discuss!" i thought the poster wanted us to discuss the flyer and its way of addressing gendered behaviors in punk culture not the entirety of gender, feminism, sexism etc.

i don't actually have any problem with op's comments about it or with a lot of what's in the flyer. especially the part that they both mentioned about being pro-active. passive responses to shitty situations don't help anyone, including when resentment ferments into vengefuless and arrogance - ie, "boys suck", "the holocaust justifies all of israel's policies", etc.

i realize you don't think you are "one of those people" and i'm sure it's true there are people you find to be ridiculously leftist, but the way you tend to bust out "shut up", "fuck you" etc so quickly to any challenge to your views, and assume tons of shit about other people, their histories and motivations, makes me feel like you are at least some kind of a person who doesn't always take things very rationally esp when there is chance to rage out with your enlightened sense of politics and ethics.... i don't want to get wrapped up in ad hominems though if you know what i mean

 

[xbocax]

rule of thumb....when you have nothing intelligent to say use any means necessary to attack someones character to avoid looking as ignorant as you actually are.
Theres nothing else to be said here. aside from Gudj and Plagueship whether or not I agree or disagree with there argument this has turned into a elementary playground fight.
Have fun kids

 

[Puckett]

rule of thumb....when you have nothing intelligent to say use any means necessary to attack someones character to avoid looking as ignorant as you actually are.
Theres nothing else to be said here. aside from Gudj and Plagueship whether or not I agree or disagree with there argument this has turned into a elementary playground fight.
Have fun kids

because some people dont read everything and just start saying shit out their ass. im far from ignorant. i dont say something based on the fact that i hang out with and see types of behavior, i say things based on the fact that im a woman and i have personly delt with this type of behavior. so incase you didnt read my post from befor its here for you to read now.

And for the women who become feminist they probably have gone threw something that made them that way. But its like if you go to a punk show you should know what goes on there and not think just cuz your a girl people will take it easy on you in the pit. shit dosnt work like that. I have been busted up many times and busted other men and women up in the pit. But i knew what i was getting into when i went in. Life isnt rainbows and sunshine its broken noses and black eyes.