Effective 'resistance' versus pointless rioting?

[Gudj]

if we want the world to change, i think we've got to be prepared to give up our cushy lives and to die for our cause.

If you criticize the actions used, be creative, and try other tactics!

No doubt.

 

[ayron]

violent protesting has the potential of being massively effective, but the problem lies not in the action but how far its taken. If Protesters didint think of protesting as a one time thing, as day trip to the streets and then back to living the lives they were just calling out against, protesting would be very effective. as they would stay and fight, the looting would never stop and the battles for the streets would be ongoing untill the pigs backed down. anarchism would emerge if that were the case.

its the diffrence between living the change and wanting the change. protesters want change but are not ready to live it. if we want to stop tar sands we should have a constant occupation of the streets and riot, fight pigs, eat and share food, make music, loot, destroy the institutions involed untill the tar sands get stoped, or the forces masses at the tar sands and took them over! its a way of life, not a one time deal and until thats recognized as such, protesting will never truly accomplish anything.

 

[Stargazer]

Lol seems like everyday some stupid ass hippie douche or neo nazi scumbag keeps ranting to me about how they're fighting for my freedoms. I DONT NEED NOR WANT HELP Especially some douchebag crusty looking revolutionary reject philosopher wannabes with dreadlocks and a chez Quevevra T shirt...All you do is cause damage which hard working peoples taxes go to pay. Do you not realize there's a shit load of people that when they see these assholes setting shit on fire and breaking windows, they yell at their TVs "WHY THEY FUCK AREN'T THE COPS SHOOTING THESE IDIOTS....maybe in you're groups, This is acceptable, but to normal conforming hard working people with morals...I believe you would calls these "sheeoples". This is grounds to have you killed or at least locked away.
I And its not "what you stand for" its how you stand for it....Half the shit you destroy doesn't even give you a tactical edge. Used clothing store? Seriously whats the point of throwing a cocktail bomb into a used clothing store. Was it a secret base where "The establishment" works 24/7 to slowly enslave us LOL seriously fuck off, "NO GUNS, NO PEACE...KNOW GUNS, KNOW PEACE....by the way, to the idiot I said" you guys would not accomplish anything at the G20, prove me wrong....lol looks like I was right....wow 6 cops cars destroyed...oh no!, you really brought down" the system" LOL what a wast of fucking time that was, I was expecting some epic battle...lame.

 

[connerR]

Lol seems like everyday some stupid ass hippie douche or neo nazi scumbag keeps ranting to me about how they're fighting for my freedoms. I DONT NEED NOR WANT HELP Especially some douchebag crusty looking revolutionary reject philosopher wannabes with dreadlocks and a chez Quevevra T shirt...All you do is cause damage which hard working peoples taxes go to pay. Do you not realize there's a shit load of people that when they see these assholes setting shit on fire and breaking windows, they yell at their TVs "WHY THEY FUCK AREN'T THE COPS SHOOTING THESE IDIOTS....maybe in you're groups, This is acceptable, but to normal conforming hard working people with morals...I believe you would calls these "sheeoples". This is grounds to have you killed or at least locked away.
I And its not "what you stand for" its how you stand for it....Half the shit you destroy doesn't even give you a tactical edge. Used clothing store? Seriously whats the point of throwing a cocktail bomb into a used clothing store. Was it a secret base where "The establishment" works 24/7 to slowly enslave us LOL seriously fuck off, "NO GUNS, NO PEACE...KNOW GUNS, KNOW PEACE....by the way, to the idiot I said" you guys would not accomplish anything at the G20, prove me wrong....lol looks like I was right....wow 6 cops cars destroyed...oh no!, you really brought down" the system" LOL what a wast of fucking time that was, I was expecting some epic battle...lame.

FABULOUS post. I was going to respond to ayron: "as they would stay and fight, the looting would never stop and the battles for the streets would be ongoing untill the pigs backed down. anarchism would emerge if that were the case."

No, it wouldn't. Anarchism would die a bloody death because people would shoot the activists. And I think maybe 1% of the entire "anarchist" community are bad enough dudes to sit through something like that. The second bullets start flying I imagine a lot of protestors would become FOR the system real quick.

The thought of violent anarchist protests, to me, is laughable.
"Fuck capitalism! Join us! We light things on fire and aim to dismantle everything you've grown up believing!"

 

[Gudj]

FABULOUS post. I was going to respond to ayron: "as they would stay and fight, the looting would never stop and the battles for the streets would be ongoing untill the pigs backed down. anarchism would emerge if that were the case."

No, it wouldn't. Anarchism would die a bloody death because people would shoot the activists. And I think maybe 1% of the entire "anarchist" community are bad enough dudes to sit through something like that. The second bullets start flying I imagine a lot of protestors would become FOR the system real quick.

The thought of violent anarchist protests, to me, is laughable.
"Fuck capitalism! Join us! We light things on fire and aim to dismantle everything you've grown up believing!"

There has been alot of shittalk on "pointless rioting" so far, but not a whole lot said on effective resistance.
What do you think should be the alternative connerR? (I also really want to read how stargazer might have answered this question, but oh well).

 

[anyways]

The best way in my mind to start any kind of revolution - peaceful or violent - is to make it both palatable and encompassing. While the average people may agree philosophically at the end of the day, they're going to see punk kids with patched up clothes, crazy hair, tattoos and piercings, etc, and think, "these kids are crazy!"

You can boycott, riot, protest, sabotage, and bust caps, but if the general public aren't on your side, you're going nowhere.

I think you hit the nail on the head (one of them anyway). If people aren't seeing our point of view, and just seeing a bunch of windows getting broken (or whatever) it's to the everyday person a senseless act of vandalism.

No political message really gets across.

 

[anyways]

I really don't see even these "pointless" protests going on anymore... Maybe I've just been missing everything but I haven't seen action on any level in years.

 

[ayron]

FABULOUS post. I was going to respond to ayron: "as they would stay and fight, the looting would never stop and the battles for the streets would be ongoing untill the pigs backed down. anarchism would emerge if that were the case."

No, it wouldn't. Anarchism would die a bloody death because people would shoot the activists. And I think maybe 1% of the entire "anarchist" community are bad enough dudes to sit through something like that. The second bullets start flying I imagine a lot of protestors would become FOR the system real quick.

The thought of violent anarchist protests, to me, is laughable.
"Fuck capitalism! Join us! We light things on fire and aim to dismantle everything you've grown up believing!"

you make a good point dude, thats for sure. i mean a militant army of pigs armed to the teeth against a massive crowd of people with rocks, signs, molotovs and baseball bats its ludicris in the first place. but if were talking about real insurection the violent anarchists you laugh at would have stragies, guns, armour, and take full advantage of a less radical rioting crowd to kill, loot, sabatage key places and people, even pigs from building windows, and if the pigs are getting shot from behind and above, there not gonna shoot at a corwd infornt of them, becuase theyd die. with flanking tactics used by small groups from massive protests with the drive to kill if need be, along side with, all kinds of people in the street from peacefull fucks to rioters and food not bombs, the pigs would be overwhelmed in a city that was not expecting such resistance. imagine what the the pigs would do trying to deal with a typical large protest thats on the verge of roiting, if their precinct blows up from a small cell? and if at the same time 3 other small cells went around taking out banks and etc? if there are say 2 large collectives peacefully protesting 2 different topics at the same time (which is realitivly easy to do) and they build momentum, and snowball, they could lay the foundation for a very powerfull resistance, and quite possibly insurection....its not about public support btw, it is not a populatiry contest for the sheeple to agree with blowing up a copshop, or killing pigs or taking out banks. haha thats the point, if radiacal anarchist took out gas stations sure thed be hated, but even if there not, NOBODYS gonna be buying gas.

nono anarchism is very possible, we just need to at least have faith and fucking balls. the pigs fight for a payroll, we fight for our lives, theres no question weather anarchism will rise, its just a matter of what city first, then the rest will fall.

 

[coldsteelrail]

I know that it can be really hard to be sure about this...but sometimes i think 'the pigs' are just confused, insecure people with a really shitty job. It should never be about the pigs vs the people. Cops are used for crowd control and also a diversion. When there's cops surrounding cops, and snipers on the roof, it is pointless to fight directly against the cops and expect to win. They will gleefully shoot you, lock you up, and fuck up your entire life. How to humanize the cops, so that they are working with the people? How to humanize the government, and the general public, so that the value of our entire lives and society are restructured?
I'm at a loss right now when i look at our world. I am working on understanding my own apathy, and social goals. Current life in canada and US is really comfortable, but the illusions are falling very quickly, although we can all still be easily sold. Even though their needs to be mass cohesive uprisings, it's positive social action that builds a stronger, smarter, healthier society (like community gardening, food not bombs, and pedestrianized streets).
Social uprising creates civil war, and i think that most people from the US or Canada do not understand the depth of the change they are asking for, or even that much change is needed. You can talk about blowing up gas stations, but what is your objective? What is the alternative to gas? What would you do in a blacked-out city while there's a state of emergency? You can talk about cities falling, but honestly they need to be re-engineered, 'cause what else do we have right now? There are so many people in this world, where are we all gonna go? Why should we be a species praying for the death of ourselves, as though we are not vehicles of change. Living in a lawless society where chaos abounds is not productive or fun. It's dangerous and depricating. Would you prefer to live in somalia? Are we ready for blood on the streets, and would we follow ghandi?
Governments all over the world have used destabilizing tactics to create total chaos, so that entire systems are easy to topple and manipulate. These tactics always amount to even more complete disintegration, degredation, and profound loss. If we were to actually create an anarchistic society today, we would probably become vunerable to complete dictatorship and ruin very quickly.
my gov't (canadian) is happily selling off crown corporations, with a preference for transnational and foreign buyers. None of our resources, including our fresh water, are being used for the benefit of canadians, and untimately we are holding back the rest of the world from major positive change, while at the same time destroying our own nation.
We are witnessing the catalyst...how do we take control?

 

[notconnerR]

nono anarchism is very possible, we just need to at least have faith and fucking balls. the pigs fight for a payroll, we fight for our lives, theres no question weather anarchism will rise, its just a matter of what city first, then the rest will fall.

I'm going to go ahead and say that not only will it never happen, it CANNOT happen. If anarchists took out gas stations, police would be fucking merciless in their actions against anarchists and I'm not going to bet any money that the "sheeple" (I fucking hate hearing that god damned word) are going to give a shit. Hell, anarchists can't even agree with each other on what they want.

I don't understand when I hear anarchists say that it's not about marketing their idea or garnering public support. All the anarchists I talk to want to spread anarchy and dismantle the way things are, but they expect it to all just change in a flash, perhaps with a "pointless riot" or getting drunk under a bridge.

Anarchy will only be sustainable when there is one man or woman left in the world.

 

[cranberrydavid]

If anarchists took out gas stations, police would be fucking merciless in their actions against anarchists

I gotta agree here. I'm old enough to remember when the Watts riots were going down. It only lasted 6 days. Later I got to know a guy who'd joined the Guard to dodge Nam and ended up riding in the back of a truck under a canvas with twin 50 calibers as they patrolled the streets of LA during the last couple days. When they'd hear a shot they'd rip off the tarp and he'd take out the whole floor where they thought the shot came form. The force of the firepower would sweep all the furniture to the far wall, shatter every cup, plate, toilet, lamp, bottle..... That's how governments take control back. Remember "shock and awe"?

The only difference between now and then is now the Guard has actual combat experience in urban warfare from Iraq, a whole bunch of new toys and tactics, and can be called in faster.

 

[ayron]

I know that it can be really hard to be sure about this...but sometimes i think 'the pigs' are just confused, insecure people with a really shitty job. It should never be about the pigs vs the people. Cops are used for crowd control and also a diversion. When there's cops surrounding cops, and snipers on the roof, it is pointless to fight directly against the cops and expect to win. They will gleefully shoot you, lock you up, and fuck up your entire life. How to humanize the cops, so that they are working with the people? How to humanize the government, and the general public, so that the value of our entire lives and society are restructured?
I'm at a loss right now when i look at our world. I am working on understanding my own apathy, and social goals. Current life in canada and US is really comfortable, but the illusions are falling very quickly, although we can all still be easily sold. Even though their needs to be mass cohesive uprisings, it's positive social action that builds a stronger, smarter, healthier society (like community gardening, food not bombs, and pedestrianized streets).
Social uprising creates civil war, and i think that most people from the US or Canada do not understand the depth of the change they are asking for, or even that much change is needed. You can talk about blowing up gas stations, but what is your objective? What is the alternative to gas? What would you do in a blacked-out city while there's a state of emergency? You can talk about cities falling, but honestly they need to be re-engineered, 'cause what else do we have right now? There are so many people in this world, where are we all gonna go? Why should we be a species praying for the death of ourselves, as though we are not vehicles of change. Living in a lawless society where chaos abounds is not productive or fun. It's dangerous and depricating. Would you prefer to live in somalia? Are we ready for blood on the streets, and would we follow ghandi?
Governments all over the world have used destabilizing tactics to create total chaos, so that entire systems are easy to topple and manipulate. These tactics always amount to even more complete disintegration, degredation, and profound loss. If we were to actually create an anarchistic society today, we would probably become vunerable to complete dictatorship and ruin very quickly.
my gov't (canadian) is happily selling off crown corporations, with a preference for transnational and foreign buyers. None of our resources, including our fresh water, are being used for the benefit of canadians, and untimately we are holding back the rest of the world from major positive change, while at the same time destroying our own nation.
We are witnessing the catalyst...how do we take control?

FUCKING BRILLIANT! thank you so much for that i think your mostly spot on actually.

my whole point was basicly going to the extreame of protesting as a single tactic. but for real change this whole diversity of tactics thing has to come into play, direct action movments to build well basicly the same principles of the venus project. like an example would be say a campainge to build awareness of geothermal energy that would supply unlimitd energy creating the oppurtunity to go nearly completly elctical in our cars, homes, and in a way thats totaly eco freindly and so on. and when were on the verge of pushing it through, and when the government is blantatly telling us its not going to happen, we blow up the local dam or somthing and force the city to rebuild somthing and with so much support to have geothermal itll go through.

rioting and so on is just a single tactic and really cannot be singled out, no tactic alone can accomplish anything and it needs to be disscused in context to the rest of the movment. i was just trying to defend roiting and protesting, becuase quite obviously it has lost much respect and support, anarchy and anarchists have nothing todo with rioting, its no more important then food not bombs. but the sterotype says other witch many people subscribe to.

 

[ayron]

I'm going to go ahead and say that not only will it never happen, it CANNOT happen. If anarchists took out gas stations, police would be fucking merciless in their actions against anarchists and I'm not going to bet any money that the "sheeple" (I fucking hate hearing that god damned word) are going to give a shit. Hell, anarchists can't even agree with each other on what they want.

I don't understand when I hear anarchists say that it's not about marketing their idea or garnering public support. All the anarchists I talk to want to spread anarchy and dismantle the way things are, but they expect it to all just change in a flash, perhaps with a "pointless riot" or getting drunk under a bridge.

Anarchy will only be sustainable when there is one man or woman left in the world.

i agree only when people expect change to come from soley roiting or "pointless roiting" as you say. the roiting that has real change accmpanies an entire movment that already has the people behind it for what ever reason. we must look at roiting as part of a bigger picture or your just wasting your time being defeatist and more importantly discounting a very powerfull tactic for when the time comes.

 

[Cobo]

It's all pointless. No matter what you do to the system you can never remove the factors that led to the creation of the system in the first place - human nature. We were a species of anarchists at some point, before governments and moneys and all that. We created all this stuff for a reason.

Until we can change human nature anarchy will never be sustainable.

 

[Eager]

i see boycotts as being more effective than protesting. but then again there's a time and season...

Boycott is the most exclusively middle class and ultimately reformist form of protest there is.

Can you imagine if folks had started a "boycott" instead of a riot and looting spree after the Rodney King verdict?

Nothing would have happened except starvation amongst the oppressed; because when you are poor, you can barely buy anything as it is. Buying power and the ability to be a "respectable citizen" is a privilege not afforded to the most oppressed people in this society.

And thats not even delving into the obvious problems that arise from an intent to overthrow a racist power structure by participating in the role of a "good, respectable consumer". It doesn't challenge that power structure; it recognizes it, plays into it, and adapts it.

Don't you get it? "The masters tools will never dismantle the masters house." As long as you fall into the predictable role of "subject"; you are forced to ask for concession.

And how can you ever win in such a circumstance? What sort of victor lets the loser choose the pre-conditions for victory?

 

[Thoreau]

currently reading, hope il learn something

 

[Eager]

Since nobody has said anything yet, I am going to assume that a lot of people here dont understand the true power of nonviolent resistance. The point is not to get lots of publicity and pressure those in power to do what you want, but to get those in power to sympathize with you. Pressuring those in power into making change is only a side effect. I cant explain it very well, so I'll just say that you want to show those in power how important the issue is to you. Thats why hunger strike is such a powerfull tool. You are showing people that the issue at hand is more to you important than food, and ultimately life.

This is exactly the problem with pacifism as an ideology; the unfounded assumption that oppressors are subconsciously empathetic to the oppressed.

As an all-encompassing dogma; its a complete ignorance of class and social dynamics are its political impotence, unable to distinguish self-defense on the part of the oppressed from the violence imposed upon them by the powerful.

In the pacifist line of thinking, our system that distributes power unequally is a myth; because the oppressed are equally "morally implicit" in perpetuating their own oppression:

The rape survivor who castrates her rapist, should have appealed to the rapist to avoid being raped.
The worker who sabotages her bosses machinery, should have appealed to the boss to avoid her exploitation.
The queer person who fights against his attacker, should have appealed to the homophobe to avoid his abuse.
The poor person who loots a convenience store, should have appealed to the owner to hire him.
The prisoner who kills a cop and breaks out of prison, should have appealed his jailers to release him.


Anyways, my question to the original poster is this: What is the difference in "gaining sympathy from" and "appealing to" those in power; if at the end of the day, they remain the ones in power?

 

[Teko]

And they've got a history of killing. Do you want to really go head-to-head against that?

yes i do.

 

[dolittle]

This is not indepth, helpful advice. Just something I thought of while reading this thread.
Back in the 50's & 60's, the mafia owned most all the Gay clubs. This was OK cuz they paid off the cops to keep harassment to a min.
On night the cops decided to raid this club called Stonewall.
Started out a normal bar raid.... Until one of the Dragqueens got her tempo in a knot.
The Dragqueens decided to stand together & say enough is fucking enough.
By sunrise the following morning, the local Gay community had the cops barracaded in the bar, pissing their pantys. Thus was born the modern "Gay movement.
As any victim will tell you... When you are fed up with being pushed down & having your milk money taken from you. The only efective move is to beat the shit out of your bully.
Personally, I don't need a mob of protesters to change shit. I can do that all on my own. And I do make a change. Every time I feed a hungry person. Every time I give a homeless person a warm blanket or jacket. EVERY time I do what is right for my fellow man & my planet, I make a Chang.
You can wax phillisofic all you like, words are cheap. If you REALLY want Chang, go find a roadside, a creek or river & clean the trash out of it. Go find a family in need, (there are plenty of them these days) & use the money you spamed for beer to buy that family healthy food. Or gas for their car or pay the light bill for them.
I'm guessing all this chang ya'll are talking about is changing the world to make it a better place for everyone. Protest & riots are soon forgotten. A clean roadside or creek bank & a couple good deeds tend to linger in the back of folks mind for a long time.

 

[Thoreau]

This is not indepth, helpful advice. Just something I thought of while reading this thread.
Back in the 50's & 60's, the mafia owned most all the Gay clubs. This was OK cuz they paid off the cops to keep harassment to a min.
On night the cops decided to raid this club called Stonewall.
Started out a normal bar raid.... Until one of the Dragqueens got her tempo in a knot.
The Dragqueens decided to stand together & say enough is fucking enough.
By sunrise the following morning, the local Gay community had the cops barracaded in the bar, pissing their pantys. Thus was born the modern "Gay movement.
As any victim will tell you... When you are fed up with being pushed down & having your milk money taken from you. The only efective move is to beat the shit out of your bully.
Personally, I don't need a mob of protesters to change shit. I can do that all on my own. And I do make a change. Every time I feed a hungry person. Every time I give a homeless person a warm blanket or jacket. EVERY time I do what is right for my fellow man & my planet, I make a Chang.
You can wax phillisofic all you like, words are cheap. If you REALLY want Chang, go find a roadside, a creek or river & clean the trash out of it. Go find a family in need, (there are plenty of them these days) & use the money you spamed for beer to buy that family healthy food. Or gas for their car or pay the light bill for them.
I'm guessing all this chang ya'll are talking about is changing the world to make it a better place for everyone. Protest & riots are soon forgotten. A clean roadside or creek bank & a couple good deeds tend to linger in the back of folks mind for a long time.

Very true

But when people actually succeed in rioting, holy shit, they take down everything, soviet revolution all the way
Sure it would just create instability, but what happens when the people invite the army to their side? shit gets done, believe me
Then again the military must be not so brainwashed