Workamping in the Eastern Seirras Sucks (1 Viewer)

iamwhatiam

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By nature killing is cruel, from that axiom I am totally willing to deduce that not recognizing that is stupid. So I fail to see how this is a generalizatrion. You cannot be a hunter and not be cruel, so either it's plain stupidity or cognative dissonance and refusal to engage with empathy which is a lack of emotional awareness which stems from stupidity. Now I think that can change with some education.

Now to address your other points. You are building a strawman argument out of things I never professed support for. I am anti-hunting, I am anti-fishing and I am also anti-monocrop farming. I have no problem with GMO's inherently, but with the companies that amount to patent trolls, patenting genetics and the reasons they GMO crops to be round-up ready and the like(where round-up has been linked repeatedly to cancer). I think we can have a really great agricultural system if we replace all the cattle land with organic farms that don't practice monoculture.

Now I know from looking at data that is readily available that raising animals for meat requires more land for crops to feed them than if we just ate plants. Thats a fact. Now extrapolate that to the wildlands. The deer people shoot, were out here grazing, by not allowing predators like wolves to thrive and work naturally on deer populations so that we can hunt them, we are literally changing the landscape of America. This was documented in Yellowstone. Farmers around Yellowstone hunted the wolves there into extinction, that led to a massive overpopulation of deer that began to thrive in places they dare not go when the wolves were there. They ate the plants away from riverbeds which literally changed the path of the rivers. When wolves were re-introduced it went back to it's normal path. By eating only plants, we actually use and abuse less wildnerness land than if we allow people to hunt. Next it's not just a few hunters in woods. Go to Pennsylvania during hunting season. You can look up on the gamelands by the AT there and see those blaze orange jackets every 30 yards or so. I'm amazed there areen't more hunting accidents. What I am not amazed by is thee sheer amount of trash they leave behind. You kick the dirt there and some buried trash goes flying. It's not THAT bad here in the seirras, but it's closer than you would expect for how remote it is. I went hiking up by trumble lake, which is supposed to be a remote area, but I found trash bags full of cans all over the place, bullet casings and evidence people were up there plinking cans without regard for the lead in the ammunition, which ends up in the lake over time, which bio-accumulates in the fish, which then they likely eat and it bio-accumulates in humans as well.

There are many problems with hunting for your meat, many of which I just laid out. Ignoring those problems because you just like meat so damn much is cognitive dissonance, it's basically willful ignorance and is stupid. You can educate yourself and become less stupid. I used to eat meat. I don't anymore, largely because of my love of animals and the wild places that are better off with no people around, because we feel entitled to take from those places. Why are you entitled to the life you took, or the land you took it on if you are willing to give nothing back to that land? The best way to give back is to support re-introduction of predators and to interact with that land as little as possible. Leave no trace. No garbage, no bullet casings, no fishing lines, no beer cans, nothing.
Life takes other life to sustain it. When you eat tofu or vegetables, you are still taking a life. I won't let anyone make me feel guilty for taking a life because o like the taste of meat. If that makes me stupid or a bad person in your eyes I really don't give a fuck. I do it responsibly. I never take more than I need and I don't trash the land. Many other hunters and fisherman have the same principles. Even when I harvest plants from the wild, I'm conscious of how much I take.

I've given back to the land quite a bit picked up more than my fair share of trash in the woods and have helped with numerous rehabilitation projects in the states, helping plant endangered and native plants.
 
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fimbulvetr

fimbulvetr

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Lol...how would you ever provide for yourself, if that was your goal, with this mentality? Did Lewis and Clark pull over at Taco Bell when they got hungry?


You've done gone and contradicted yourself now.

You've never been more than 7 miles from a road? You should explore more, in my opinion. Keep wandering, you'll get more than 7 miles from a road eventually.



You literally cannot get more than 7 miles from a road. That is a fact. The furthest from a road in the US you can be is in Yellowstone NP and it's about 7 miles. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Please show me my contradiction. We are not Lewis and Clark you dumb shit. I provide for myself the same way most people in the US do. I work, I take my money to a grocery store, a farmers market, etc and I buy food. The difference is I only buy food from plants. Lewis and Clark were a scourge on the wilderness they ventured into, which has not been the same since. This wildness of this country would have been much better off had they never encountered it or had the indigenous people they met murdered them somewhere along the way. So you also have built a straw-man without even stopping to digest a single thing I actually said. People have been farming for a long, long time and what necessitated lewis clark going west, nothing really, they could have stayed put, subsistence farmed, but they brought to fruition one of the biggest scars on Amerikkkan history, via manifest destiny, which led directly to the trail of tears. Their going west was terrible for all the people, animals and frankly plants that were thriving before they did so.
 
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fimbulvetr

fimbulvetr

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Life takes other life to sustain it. When you eat tofu or vegetables, you are still taking a life. I won't let anyone make me feel guilty for taking a life because o like the taste of meat. If that makes me stupid or a bad person in your eyes I really don't give a fuck. I do it responsibly. I never take more than I need and I don't trash the land. Many other hunters and fisherman have the same principles. Even when I harvest plants from the wild, I'm conscious of how much I take.

I've given back to the land quite a bit picked up more than my fair share of trash in the woods and have helped with numerous rehabilitation projects in the states, helping plant endangered and native plants.

The part you should feel guilty about and I suspect you already do, because if you truly didn''t give a fuck you wouldn't be writing back, is this; It is totally unnecessary to eat meat. Your enjoyment does not preempt another beings right to life. Plants are not considered sentient, even considering the whole mother tree research that came out recently. In fact what that demonstrates is that it is much harder to kill a plant than mammal for example. If you kill a mammal, it's genetic material ceases to grow, not so with plants and fungi, in fact fungi mycellia continues to thrive after you harvest the fruiting bodies, sometimes even more so. Most plants we eat are annuals, they will die at the end of the year, many are already dead when we harvest them, however very few are actually killed because we harvest them and those that are were at the end of their life cycle and were going to die soon. That is not so with animals, most animals we kill are quite young compared to their potential life span and your enjoyment of that flesh in no way makes up for the life you robbed them of. Now I think you have significantly derailed this conversation into one about veganism, but that doesn't mean I'm going to just let it go. No matter what issues you care about, I can come up with a good reason to be vegan. Is it the environment? Veganism is better for that than eating meat and there is peer reviewed research supporting that(Here is an article that sums up some of the facts found in much of that research: Environment - https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/environment), is it animal rights(I know it's not), but obviously it's better, do you want less living things overall to have to die? We farm and thus kill more plants to feed the animals we eat than is necessary to just feed the human population. Is it human rights? Veganism can feed more people less expensively. Is it health? Veganism is recommended for heart health by the American Heart Association. Is it that you want great tasting food? I can make you some vegan food that will make you forget about meat, there is also lab grown meat for people who think they can't live without it. You actually don't have to kill anything to survive, there are janists who only eat parts of plants that don't kill the plants to harvest. Now that we've gone down this path, feel free to do what you want with your life, but do so now being informed that there is a better, smarter, healthier, more ecologically friendly way you could be living and you are choosing not too. I think that is textbook cognitive dissonance.
 

iamwhatiam

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The part you should feel guilty about and I suspect you already do, because if you truly didn''t give a fuck you wouldn't be writing back, is this; It is totally unnecessary to eat meat. Your enjoyment does not preempt another beings right to life. Plants are not considered sentient, even considering the whole mother tree research that came out recently. In fact what that demonstrates is that it is much harder to kill a plant than mammal for example. If you kill a mammal, it's genetic material ceases to grow, not so with plants and fungi, in fact fungi mycellia continues to thrive after you harvest the fruiting bodies, sometimes even more so. Most plants we eat are annuals, they will die at the end of the year, many are already dead when we harvest them, however very few are actually killed because we harvest them and those that are were at the end of their life cycle and were going to die soon. That is not so with animals, most animals we kill are quite young compared to their potential life span and your enjoyment of that flesh in no way makes up for the life you robbed them of. Now I think you have significantly derailed this conversation into one about veganism, but that doesn't mean I'm going to just let it go. No matter what issues you care about, I can come up with a good reason to be vegan. Is it the environment? Veganism is better for that than eating meat and there is peer reviewed research supporting that(Here is an article that sums up some of the facts found in much of that research: Environment - https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/environment), is it animal rights(I know it's not), but obviously it's better, do you want less living things overall to have to die? We farm and thus kill more plants to feed the animals we eat than is necessary to just feed the human population. Is it human rights? Veganism can feed more people less expensively. Is it health? Veganism is recommended for heart health by the American Heart Association. Is it that you want great tasting food? I can make you some vegan food that will make you forget about meat, there is also lab grown meat for people who think they can't live without it. You actually don't have to kill anything to survive, there are janists who only eat parts of plants that don't kill the plants to harvest. Now that we've gone down this path, feel free to do what you want with your life, but do so now being informed that there is a better, smarter, healthier, more ecologically friendly way you could be living and you are choosing not too. I think that is textbook cognitive dissonance.
Do you use fossil fuels at all?
 
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fimbulvetr

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Do you use fossil fuels at all?

So you do care actually? Here is the thing about fossil fuels. Animal Agriculture releases more carbon than fossil fuels at this point. If I could afford an electric car, that's what I'd have, but I live in a van, so by nature of living in the world we currently inhabit, where I am forced by capitalism to work to live, rather than subsitence farm on a homestead, which is what I'd rather be doing, so yes I use fossil fuels and I drive on roads that contain animal by products, which is also a decision I cannot control. However the things I can control. I do. I have solar panels on my van and I refill my batteries and dilute the acid solution as best I can before disposing of it. But guess where I don't throw it when I'm done? The forest. My point is, humans are hugely impactful everywhere we go, even just in considering soil compaction. We have removed hundreds of years of top soil production in most of the places we inhabit. Now I believe the earth would be better off if we quarantine our effects to the densely populated city centers and leave as little a trace as possible in the wild places. Even the fires in california have gotten worse largely because humans have moved out from the cities and built flammable structures all over the place and most of the fires that happen are human caused and preventable. I could go down the road of talking about veganism and the places that can be impactful and I will also say this, because of the structure of our society, nobody can be perfectly vegan or perfectly sustainable, however there are things we can easily do which would make a huge impact. I think its sad we have to go out and control invasives and help endangered plants and animals to thrive and honestly I don't think that is giving back, that is simply just repairing damage and it's not even proving particularly effective. Look at stilt grass and Japanese Knotweed, there is nothing humans can or are willing to do to eradicate those things. They are now very much a part of the forest ecosystem collapse happening in Eastern America. That is the human legacy unfortunately.
 

iamwhatiam

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So you do care actually? Here is the thing about fossil fuels. Animal Agriculture releases more carbon than fossil fuels at this point. If I could afford an electric car, that's what I'd have, but I live in a van, so by nature of living in the world we currently inhabit, where I am forced by capitalism to work to live, rather than subsitence farm on a homestead, which is what I'd rather be doing, so yes I use fossil fuels and I drive on roads that contain animal by products, which is also a decision I cannot control. However the things I can control. I do. I have solar panels on my van and I refill my batteries and dilute the acid solution as best I can before disposing of it. But guess where I don't throw it when I'm done? The forest. My point is, humans are hugely impactful everywhere we go, even just in considering soil compaction. We have removed hundreds of years of top soil production in most of the places we inhabit. Now I believe the earth would be better off if we quarantine our effects to the densely populated city centers and leave as little a trace as possible in the wild places. Even the fires in california have gotten worse largely because humans have moved out from the cities and built flammable structures all over the place and most of the fires that happen are human caused and preventable. I could go down the road of talking about veganism and the places that can be impactful and I will also say this, because of the structure of our society, nobody can be perfectly vegan or perfectly sustainable, however there are things we can easily do which would make a huge impact. I think its sad we have to go out and control invasives and help endangered plants and animals to thrive and honestly I don't think that is giving back, that is simply just repairing damage and it's not even proving particularly effective. Look at stilt grass and Japanese Knotweed, there is nothing humans can or are willing to do to eradicate those things. They are now very much a part of the forest ecosystem collapse happening in Eastern America. That is the human legacy unfortunately.
I'm at work so I don't have time to write a long answer. But I definitely do not believe exclusion from the wilderness is the answer. I for one would not do well mentally living in a city or big town cut off from the wilderness. I would lose my sanity.
 

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For someone who is strongly FOR quarantining people from the wilderness, why not start with yourself? I've never met you in person, so I'm not trying to judge...so forgive me, but gotta say....you sound like one of those pious people who like to stand and preach from their pulpit on the street and point the condemning finger towards everyone who passes. Or maybe a flagellant from centuries ago who would flog himself.

humans are hugely impactful everywhere we go, even just in considering soil compaction.
so are other animal species. large herds of elk, bison, or other animals can trample and decimate vegetation and compact prairie soils where they graze. they also help cause more erosion. they shit in freshwater sources and also spread diseases.

Even the fires in california have gotten worse largely because humans have moved out from the cities and built flammable structures all over the place and most of the fires that happen are human caused and preventable.
More fires happen when there are drought conditions coupled with dead timber and undergrowth ,and forest lands not being managed properly. From what I have learned, Native americans used to manage their lands by using controlled burns. They knew that (controlled) forest fires were part of a healthy ecosystem. They replentish nutrients to the soil, help new young undergrowth sprout and grow providing new food source and habitat for animals, and kill off diseased trees and plants. Some plants and trees actually require stratification by fire to sprout. Forest fires in and of themselves aren't a bad thing, and they happen naturally without human aid. But yeah, I agree there are idiots who shouldn't be allowed near a flame out in the woods....always make completely sure your fire is put out before you leave if there is a chance that it might spread.

I think its sad we have to go out and control invasives and help endangered plants and animals to thrive and honestly I don't think that is giving back, that is simply just repairing damage and it's not even proving particularly effective.
Yes it is sad, but at least it's doing something. But these types of efforts ARE effective. When we lived on Oahu, we helped out quite a bit with Kaena Point restoration projects (one of the more remote spots on the island) and worked with school children who would come out to volunteer and learn. Ka‘ena Point Ecosystem Restoration Project - https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/ecosystems/nars/oahu/kaena/ecosystem-restoration/
Pulling up invasive plants and planting native endangered plants in their place, which not only helped control erosion on the sand dunes there but also provided much needed habitat for one of the largest seabird colonies found on the Hawaiian islands. Albatross populations are continuing to climb to record highs because of efforts from people like us who care to "give back to the aina". Also, the planting of native plants on the dunes has helped protect ancient Hawaiian burial sites that would otherwise get torn up by 4 wheelers and campers.

This is just one example where giving back helps. Even if it is just "damage control" in your eyes. Better than sitting at home and complaining about it on the internet.


Now I believe the earth would be better off if we quarantine our effects to the densely populated city centers and leave as little a trace as possible in the wild places.
But that will NEVER happen. I think, rather, we should encourage more people to spend time in the wilderness and form a deep connection with it. But we need to educate our children and teach them to love and respect the natural world. Teach our children that we are not seperate from nature but a PART of it and every action has a reaction or consequence; everything is connected in some way.
 
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Are you guys still pussyaching about old glampers leaving adult diapers on the ground or whatever?
 

roughdraft

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You literally cannot get more than 7 miles from a road. That is a fact. The furthest from a road in the US you can be is in Yellowstone NP and it's about 7 miles. Sorry to burst your bubble.
I don´t think there´s any bubble burstin goin on here - people cut corners, skew and fuck up their measurements providing their "statistics" all the damn time. Basically, take your "fact" with a grain of salt - and I´m just pointing this out to you because you seem to be really, really emotional about this whole thing, and I don´t think it´s worth it dude...
 

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Hey fimbul, I like how you use the indigenous peoples of North America as a tool to try to justify your chosen radical position while simultaneously advocating for the end of many traditional lifeways and their removal from the "wilderness." nice.
 
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fimbulvetr

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Hey fimbul, I like how you use the indigenous peoples of North America as a tool to try to justify your chosen radical position while simultaneously advocating for the end of many traditional lifeways and their removal from the "wilderness." nice.

The two points are separate. I'm not using anybody as a tool. that's just like your opinion man. The point is, nobody is living off the land anymore. nobody is subsistence hunting in the sierras, we cannot go back to a time before Europeans fucked up the balance of ecosystems that used to exist, nor were indigenous people perfect conservationists. I think you failed to extract those points because you want to build a strawman fallacy out of some identity politics point, why dont we keep on point. If you have something to say that contradicts my points, Id love to hear it, if not I'm not interested in the ad hominym implied attack.
 
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fimbulvetr

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Here is the thing guys. None of you know me at all. You want to attack my post for whatever not that constructive reason, cool. That was my experience. You have a different one? post it, I wont be a dick and attack you for it. I was posting to be helpful. I'm really disappointed by the responses and don't worry it won't happen again. I was gonna post some code and instructions for DIYing some stuff on a van that's been really helpful for me. Kind of don't really feel like this is the right community for doing that right now and maybe I'm mischaracterizing based on a few bad apples, but I just don't feel like doing the work to be helpful when all ya'll can do is complain. You think if I had a shitty experience with this its my fault, that's not really a helpful opinion for either of us and I'm not really sure what expressing it does for you, but like I said you don't know me personally and yet some of you want to personally attack me. Fuck off. Who needs you. I'm done with this thread and possibly this site. You'll probably pat yourself on the back, but there fact is that is really you're problem, not mine. I know I didn't fo anything wrong. I know now that this line of work isn't for me and maybe some other people will see this and avoid getting stuck like I did. I'm on to greener pastures because I'm not hardcore enough yo endure the Sierras or whatever mythology you've cracked it up to be. I've got better shot to do that listen to you neg on me for no really good reason.
 

Faceplant

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Here is the thing guys. None of you know me at all. You want to attack my post for whatever not that constructive reason, cool. That was my experience. You have a different one? post it, I wont be a dick and attack you for it. I was posting to be helpful. I'm really disappointed by the responses and don't worry it won't happen again. I was gonna post some code and instructions for DIYing some stuff on a van that's been really helpful for me. Kind of don't really feel like this is the right community for doing that right now and maybe I'm mischaracterizing based on a few bad apples, but I just don't feel like doing the work to be helpful when all ya'll can do is complain. You think if I had a shitty experience with this its my fault, that's not really a helpful opinion for either of us and I'm not really sure what expressing it does for you, but like I said you don't know me personally and yet some of you want to personally attack me. Fuck off. Who needs you. I'm done with this thread and possibly this site. You'll probably pat yourself on the back, but there fact is that is really you're problem, not mine. I know I didn't fo anything wrong. I know now that this line of work isn't for me and maybe some other people will see this and avoid getting stuck like I did. I'm on to greener pastures because I'm not hardcore enough yo endure the Sierras or whatever mythology you've cracked it up to be. I've got better shot to do that listen to you neg on me for no really good reason.
Bye.
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