Trans folk, please chime in! Cis allies, please read!

croc

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#1
While scrolling the "solo female travelers" thread I saw a discussion was sparked in the comments about whether saying female bodied is rude to trans masculine or nonbinary peeps, and whether the experiences of trans women who aren't out or aren't assumed to be women by people in public should be included in the thread.
So I took that more to mean "Hey, people who are typically perceived as women by society, how safe do u feel without someone who's typically perceived as a guy?"
That seems kinda long-winded though and maybe we should discuss what terms could be most inclusive and accurate for what someone might be saying or asking. Also maybe some users would like to learn more about this topic.
My go to terms for avoiding "female/male bodied"
  • AFAB/AMAB- Assigned female/male at birth. This one can distinguish the anatomy someone started life with, but doesn't always represent their current anatomy (if they've had surgery or hormones)
  • XX/XY bodied- same as above but completely cuts out the use of the words male and female
So the above terms are ways to discuss anatomy, but aren't so useful when discussing someone's experiences based on how they're socially perceived (fuck the term "passing" in my opinion). Usually I use and have seen these terms used to help clarify what part of the trans community you might be talking about. For example, we can say trans man or trans woman but then we're leaving out trans folk who don't identify as specifically men or women, like nonbinary people. So saying "afab trans people" is my way of including nonbinary peeps in a discussion about what trans men might experience based on their given anatomy. And of course same for amab.

When discussing how someone's treated based on how they're perceived, what do you (mostly directed at trans users, but I won't get upset if educated cis people respectfully chime in) think could be said? Is people who are usually "perceived as women" or "perceived as men" wrong or upsetting to any trans people on here?
 
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#2
Yeah dude, fuck passing. It’s a toxic goal
 
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#3
I always thought that afab, and female bodied basically summed up the same thing- Speaking of anatomical generalizations by the public. What people perceive you as, physically. Not necessarily what you are, or identify as.

I'm not trans, but I am non-binary. I find myself using the term female, or male bodied more than afab, or amab in conversations because assigned female at birth, etc. is a lot of words.
 

Cornelius Vango

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#4
I think afab and amab are just as unwieldy as saying female or male bodied... I guess since it's a new idea to our culture, some things should be talked about and defined in more simple short-hand terms... What those terms should or could be, I've been trying to figure out for awhile. Maybe looking at other cultures that recognize more genders than the binary we are trained to recognize would be a good start.

Female/male presenting, afab and amab, transgender are all great workable terms, but they still are limited by the binary. Genderqueer is a great umbrella term but is also based on cis-normativity, and doesn't address the specifics of the genderqueer person. Is it important to have shorthand terms to define every manifestation of gender and sexuality? I guess it probably is... but like the folks who embody these identities, it's hard to figure out how.
 

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#5
How nice would it be to live in a world in which we're all just individual humans seen for our abilities and expression rather than being defined for the organs we have or would like to have.
 

EphemeralStick

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#6
How nice would it be to live in a world in which we're all just individual humans seen for our abilities and expression rather than being defined for the organs we have or would like to have.

Those definitions are what give us marginalized groups our power. There is strength in embracing an identity for yourself and solidarity in finding those who define themselves similarly.

A world that doesn't recognize those definitions is the one we've already had to grow up in. And that world sucks.
 

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#7
But some marginalized groups are harder to define, is what I'm trying to get at.
 

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#8
@Cornelius Vango

Then it's up to us to learn from those specific marginalized groups that we find hard define what they themselves wish to be defined as. It's not hard, all it takes is the willingness to get to know the person.

On the opposite side of the coin we as queer individuals need to be willing to perform the exhausting task of educating people on what our definitions are and why they are important to us on a near daily basis. You never really stop coming out after the first time.
 
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Cornelius Vango

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#9
You never really stop coming out after the first time.
Truer words have never been spoken, friend.


Then it's up to us to learn from those specific marginalized groups that we find hard define what they themselves wish to be defined as. It's not hard, all it takes is the willingness to get to know the person.
I suppose but for people who aren't sure, fluid or prefer not to be defined there's got to be some wiggle room as well or the terms and definitions may unintentionally be restricting or uninclusive.
 

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#10
I don't understand what you mean by wiggle room. If someone is more fluid they'll tell you that they're more fluid. If someone isn't sure what they are they'll tell you that they aren't sure. If someone prefers not to be defined they'll tell you just that, they don't want to be defined by gender. There does not have to be a term for people who don't want/know a term, that's the flipping point of it.

I suppose but for people who aren't sure, fluid or prefer not to be defined there's got to be some wiggle room as well or the terms and definitions may unintentionally be restricting or uninclusive.
Why do you want to decide for other people what they want to be called? Because you don't want people to be uninclusive? That's a paradoxical statement. Inclusion is letting people figure themselves out on their own and accepting them for who they find themselves to be, not figuring out for them how they fit into your concept of who they are.
 

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#11
Why do you want to decide for other people what they want to be called? Because you don't want people to be uninclusive? That's a paradoxical statement. Inclusion is letting people figure themselves out on their own and accepting them for who they find themselves to be, not figuring out for them how they fit into your concept of who they are.
Okay, but I'm not talking about other people, I'm talking about me. I don't know how to tell you what I am.
 

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#12
That's something for you to figure out and when you do you know we'll be accepting and supportive. Also don't think whatever you decide is set in stone, figuring yourself out is a lifetime process.
 

Cornelius Vango

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#13
Yeah, so I think we're trying to make the same points here for the most part. It is important to learn the vocabulary and to be aware of what people identify themselves as (and in my opinion, default to non-gendered language until it becomes clear what the situation is), but when you place focus on identifying what category a person would place themself under, it makes folks who are still questioning or maybe don't care to define themselves feel less... I dunno... valid?

Obviously, there's a lot of other points here to address, but what the original post was trying to get at I think is whether it's appropriate to call somebody by their gender-assigned-at-birth as a way to identify their physical situation and the way that society at large will treat them...

I think that if a person identifies themself as afab or amab, that's descriptive information and necessary in certain situations but unless you know a person well or are that person, you can't really know any of that info for sure so it's an assumption. Feminine/masculine-appearing, feminine/masculine-presenting seems to be more widely useable terms to describe someone you don't know without assuming, but again, this is all binary. Gender-ambiguous, androgynous and gender-neutral appearing are good descriptive terms outside of the binary genders for describing a stranger's looks without assuming too much.
 
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#14
It's about how things are addressed. The thread, itself, had a very cisgender/ hetero-normative thing going on. A man starting a thread about solo female travels is already off to a bad start. And, men were commenting in the thread, with no experience in what they were talking about, but only how they saw things. The thread was way more about "How do you, as a "woman", handle the constant stress of possible violence from "men"?" And, there was trans(misogynistic)phobic comment in that thread, from a man.

It's unfortunate that the usual conversation around "solo female travels" is basically "how do you avoid getting raped?" at the end of the day. Even if that's not exactly how it's said, I've heard enough stuff enough times to know that's what people are really asking. Never mind that men and non-binary people also get raped. Never mind that it doesn't matter what you're doing with you're life. If someone else decides that they are going to try to do something to you, that is a decision that THEY made, regardless of what you are doing, where you are in your life, and what you're wearing. In too many places the idea is "There are only 2 genders, and one of them gets raped for walking alone at night in a mini skirt and the other only gets raped in prison."

But, that might be a diversion from what was really going on. Those my other thoughts about violence. Back to being female bodied, I think it's insulting that someone would think that topic is appropriate. If you don't have a post about "solo male bodied travelers" why have a post about females? If you wouldn't ask a "man" don't ask a "woman".​
 

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#15
I just hope that, whomever you are and however you identify, you love yourself, even when the world refuses to, or cannot see you as the wonderful being you truly are.
 

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#16
As an amab enby person, I have been called "amab" as coded language for "man" on many occasions and I gotta say, that shit is wack. It is hardly ever relevant what someone's assigned gender was, or what bits and pieces they have. In short, if it's relevant or you need to know, WE WILL TELL YOU. If not, then don't worry about it.

Imo, it doesn't matter "how society perceives a person's gender" what is important to think about is how you respect other's identities. I mean, yeah, the vast majority of people I interact with will never understand or acknowledge my gender as even existing, and even most "woke" people still see me as a man, or will at the very least constantly misgender me. Dysphoria is a part of my daily existence and if cis people want to make the world better for people like me, maybe don't go out of your way to remind us that the vast majority of people invalidate my existence and just try and make sure that YOU treat my gender as valid.

Of course, the only people who have regularly made me feel valid and accepted and not dysphoric are my trans comrades, and maybe it's unrealistic to ever assume cis people will understand any of this enough to have the required sensitivity but idk.

This was long and ranty and for that, I apologize
 
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#17
While scrolling the "solo female travelers" thread I saw a discussion was sparked in the comments about whether saying female bodied is rude to trans masculine or nonbinary peeps, and whether the experiences of trans women who aren't out or aren't assumed to be women by people in public should be included in the thread.
So I took that more to mean "Hey, people who are typically perceived as women by society, how safe do u feel without someone who's typically perceived as a guy?"
That seems kinda long-winded though and maybe we should discuss what terms could be most inclusive and accurate for what someone might be saying or asking. Also maybe some users would like to learn more about this topic.
My go to terms for avoiding "female/male bodied"
  • AFAB/AMAB- Assigned female/male at birth. This one can distinguish the anatomy someone started life with, but doesn't always represent their current anatomy (if they've had surgery or hormones)
  • XX/XY bodied- same as above but completely cuts out the use of the words male and female
So the above terms are ways to discuss anatomy, but aren't so useful when discussing someone's experiences based on how they're socially perceived (fuck the term "passing" in my opinion). Usually I use and have seen these terms used to help clarify what part of the trans community you might be talking about. For example, we can say trans man or trans woman but then we're leaving out trans folk who don't identify as specifically men or women, like nonbinary people. So saying "afab trans people" is my way of including nonbinary peeps in a discussion about what trans men might experience based on their given anatomy. And of course same for amab.

When discussing how someone's treated based on how they're perceived, what do you (mostly directed at trans users, but I won't get upset if educated cis people respectfully chime in) think could be said? Is people who are usually "perceived as women" or "perceived as men" wrong or upsetting to any trans people on here?
"Transgender female" means a person that was born a man and has converted to a woman. "Cis female" means a person that was born a female and still is a female. To refer to someone that was born a male, I just say that the person was "born a male." "Transgender male" is used to refer to someone that was born a woman and has converted to a man. So, everyone is either a cis <insert gender> or a trans <insert gender>.
 

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#18
"Transgender female" means a person that was born a man and has converted to a woman. "Cis female" means a person that was born a female and still is a female. To refer to someone that was born a male, I just say that the person was "born a male." "Transgender male" is used to refer to someone that was born a woman and has converted to a man. So, everyone is either a cis <insert gender> or a trans <insert gender>.
Well, except enby people exist? As well as demi women/men, gender fluid people, questioning people, and many many others. Basically that's a little simplistic. Also, trans people didn't "used to be a (insert gender assigned at birth)" unless of course said trans person identifies that way, but saying something like that (especially about binary trans people) is not great practice and can be really invalidating.
 
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#19
Well, except enby people exist? As well as demi women/men, gender fluid people, questioning people, and many many others. Basically that's a little simplistic. Also, trans people didn't "used to be a (insert gender assigned at birth)" unless of course said trans person identifies that way, but saying something like that (especially about binary trans people) is not great practice and can be really invalidating.
That's right, Zaphod. So, for everyone whose gender is not ambiguous, my post applies as long as "born a male" is modified to "born with male genitalia" and "born a female" is modified to "born with female genitalia." The purpose of my post was not to classify everyone into a gender; it was to provide terminology that is often used when referring to transgender individuals who do not identify as genderqueer and when referring to non-transgender individuals who do not identify as genderqueer. Your point, however, was very important that many people do not conform to either the male or female gender.
 
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#20
As a AFAB,NB,transmasc person, I find this post relevant as people do not see me as a male. and since the traveling community is mostly dominated by men, your opinions are validated.more,your.say,your advice. That is what I have noticed in my years of traveling. And being a solo (AFAB) traveler that would be seen as very dangerous if I were traveling alone...without an assigned male at birth road dog, I would seem hopeless.
 

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