The Pronouns Thread

[Jimmy Beans]

Just wanted to throw a short story in here.

1983 was the year I first met a transperson. I was 8 years old, he was probably 7(or 8 and a little bit smaller than me). His name was Johnny, he lived in the same apartment complex as me and we became fast friends. We both shared an interest in bikes and we'd ride all over that complex until it was time to go in at sundown. I made other friends there but Johnny and I were tighter, we liked the same shit.

Johnny and I both had older sisters by a couple years and our older sisters ended up becoming acquaintances or friends, I'm not really sure how close they were but they talked. One day I was telling my mom something or other about what Johnny and I had been doing or wanted to do.. it could have been a story who knows but my sister overheard the conversation and chimed in;

"You know he's a girl, right? Johnny, your friend. He's a girl. His sister told me so. She said he's just more comfortable as a boy so he dresses like one and chose that name" This was extremely confusing to me as a child. I felt betrayed, because girls were still gross at that age right. I didn't know how to process it, so I just didn't.

I completely wrote him off. I no longer would go to his door and ask if he could come out to play, I just stayed inside my apartment for a while, it kind of felt like I went through a stint of depression. I remember his family moving away maybe a couple months after that and I regretted my actions. I missed my friend and I wished I had reacted differently to what my sister told me.

Once he was gone I realized I didn't care at all about whether or not he was a boy or a girl, he was my friend and I was the one who betrayed him. I felt like shit and though I don't think about it every day of my life.. when I do remember Johnny still to this day I feel like a piece of shit and I kinda wish he'd see something I've written(either on Reddit or here now) about it one day and reach out to me, maybe we could go ride bikes or something. Maybe he'd forgive me.

That boy taught me about transphobia at an extremely young age and in an era it wasn't very common. I am forever grateful for that lesson, it's definitely had some type of impact on my being able to process my eldest son coming out as a transboy. In fact I remember observing my eldest at a young age and noticing he had a lot of Johnny-like characteristics. Never the princess, when he'd play video games he'd always choose male characters and also create male characters to represent himself in online communities.

Oh this reminds me of another time I felt like a huge piece of shit. I remember my youngest son coming and telling on "Noelle" at that time. He said "Noelle is lying to girls on little big planet and telling them she's a boy irl". They were like 12 and 11 years old. I sat down with Noelle(who's Elliot now) and explained "Listen, you can't lie to people like that. If that person starts liking you or whatever, you're basically catfishing them. You gotta be real with people, don't mislead them"

It never dawned on me that this was his first attempt at coming out as a transboy, not until he came out years later. My ex wife and I went together(long after divorcing) to a couple therapy sessions with Elliot when this was all new stuff and in the process of talking about how we felt I was recalling back to when he was young and explaining to the therapist that he's always seemed more like a boy, and about the male video game characters. And then it just hit me like a ton of bricks, I was like oh my god what a terrible piece of shit I am. You were trying to address this then and I didn't get it, I'm so fucking sorry.

Ok this wasn't as short as I intended but I just wanted to address these topics because I believe the whole "mental illness theory" is horseshit. Both Johnny and my son Elliot knew from an extremely young age how they felt about who they were. My son isn't mentally ill and he's not confused. I think if anyone's confused it would be all the people in this thread who've mistakenly identified as psychologists. That might be a mental illness, idk.

 

[Deleted member 125]

Surprised someone else here decided to talk about this, from an energy perspective, every one regardless if your male or female has both masculine and feminine qualities and its about coming into harmony with the two, the mind and the heart, becoming a balanced human being.

The neocortex of the brain has two hemispheres. The left brain hemisphere largely facilitates logical and scientific though, while the right brain hemisphere largely facilitates creativity and compassion. When both hemispheres are in balance, the neocortex acts in it's proper role as the executive command centre of the human brain and true intelligence (intellect + creativity) is born.
Intellect, Solar (masculine) logic, analytical thought, science and math.
Intuition, Luna (Feminine) creativity, holistic thought, compassion.
Intellect (masculine) can lead to: rigid scepticism, scientism, atheism, solipsism, moral realitivism, social darwinism, eugenics, authoritarianism.
If this part of the brain is chronically dominant.
Intuition (feminine) can lead to: Naivete, blind belief, religious extremism, solipsism, unworthiness, self loathing, order follower, willing slave.
If this part of the brain is chronically dominant.​

ScarletMountain also agree with what you said about this is an issue about the person not liking themselves the way they are born male or female, if someone doesn't like the way they are and then start to mutilate themselves to feel better, is this not a disharmony in the mind? people get locked up for that. They say trans people have a high suicide rate, some say its because they are bullied, but black people often say they are bullied too there is a lot more of them and they commit suicide much less, so it can't be about bullying, like yes that is part of it but someone with mental illness is more likely to hurt themselves if they are bullied a lot, then someone who doesn't.

And im not a hater, im just discussing here, I have a trans cousin.. who I visit every now an then, ultimately people can do what they want with themselves, but once they start telling others how to talk around them an try impose there will on another, they have no right. Some kid came up to me the other day asking me to play soccer with him an his mate, was like nah thanks man.. he asked me three more times then said "why not? are you a faggot?" I looked at him an aggressively said "Fuck off kid!" an he shit himself an walked off.. sorry people but in the real world.. not every one is just gonna cater to you an your choices, and you need to stand up for yourself, be strong don't put yourself in a victim mentality, life can be fucking hardcore, work through it to the best of your ability, and never give up.

​

I read yer post twice, I'm admittedly not a smart person, but da fuq? Seriously? Can we keep the pseudo hippy "rub some wheatgrass on it and it'll be fine" stuff out of this thread? I don't think anyone is "trying to impose there will" on you by being trans. It's kinda just somebody asking real nice if you could not be a asshole and you going "nah I'm good".

I don't understand where the person calling you a fag has any relevance to being trans, or yer understanding of trans people's feelings, or really has anything to do with this topic besides you got called a fag and then told someone to fuck off.

 

[Deleted member 24782]

Gonna quote some highlights of this video bc I doubt many people will watch it thru


"... my own body feels more like a guillotine than a gift. Sometimes people ask me when I knew I was transgender. They ask me if I feel like I was born in the wrong body. As if gender is that simple. As if my body is a pair of handcuffs chaining me to housewife, to mother, to woman. I am not trapped in my body. I am trapped in other people's perceptions of my body."

"I tell myself that top surgery is expensive; it's dangerous, the backaches from binding aren't really all that bad. Besides, I love boobs on other people; why can't I just love my own? But when I tell people my name, they still use the wrong one. I say "not girl," and they give me back "woman, lady, she." I say "not woman," they say "silly girl, it is not up to you to decide." And I don't want to hate my body for this. My body is not wrong. The way people talk about my body is wrong. But my body is the only thing I can change."

"My best friend asks me why I want top surgery, a voluntary double mastectomy. He asks me why I would want to cut off a perfectly Healthy body part.I tell him it is not Healthy to feel unsafe in my body. This chest feels like a misplaced sex organ. If you had a penis growing from your elbow, you'd probably want to cut it off. People would come up to you and talk to you about your elbow penis. They would never let you be anything more than your body. I am more than my body.."

"So stop calling me diseased. Stop looking at my body and chaining me to whoever you think it makes me. I was not born into the wrong body. I was born into a world that does not know what my Body means."

OLLIE SCHMINKEY "BOOBS", SO EPIC.

 

[feralautistic]

@croc you said it... it's exhausting trying to educate at any moment when you're just trying to live.

just gonna say one more thing,

To date, I have been intimate with 2 trannies mtf/ftm, a drag queen, a gay man, and a lesbian. This was most all in my 20's as I spent a lot of time on the streets, traveling, and photographing. I did not really enjoy any of it (well except the lesbian), this was all circumstantial and I have no problems relating to people in new and exciting ways.

My beef with the LGBTQ's doesn't lie within gender identity but the extreme radical political baggage that usually comes along with it. BE GAY - cool, but then you got the anarchism, veganism, un-patriotic, anti-capatilist, hate everything in society mishmash of over bearing naive radical ideologies that mostly always fizzles out in your 30's. I've had confrontations fit to make a whole new season of Portlandia!!! So there we go, you can be a a tranny but, just I still might think your an asshole.

don't fucking call people trannies. it's hard to believe this is the first time you're hearing this, but it's a slur.

 

[Jimmy Beans]

Quick reminder;

While this thread is meant to be educational for folks I can see some questions being asked that may seem or even be offensive to some people, so please for the love of heritage units let's try to keep this civil and respectful.

 

[Deleted member 24782]

@croc you said it... it's exhausting trying to educate at any moment when you're just trying to live.

just gonna say one more thing,



don't fucking call people trannies. it's hard to believe this is the first time you're hearing this, but it's a slur.

Ok no problem, whats preferred?

Luckily, I can still use the word when repairing trucks.

 

[feralautistic]

trans people, or transgender people

 

[Beegod Santana]

So basically call people what they ask you to but don't wander the earth in crippling fear of misgendering a stranger? I think that's the gist of this thread...

 

[Deleted member 24782]

@EmmaAintDead, In reference to transgendered people, do you think the word tranny is a slur?

 

[blank]

Opportunity to virtue signal.

 

[benton]

if you're not willing to refer to trans people in the (gendered) way they want to be referred to, all you're doing is hurting them. you're not being gender-neutral, you're just ignoring someone's agency.

Feelings are proof of nothing in that they cannot be quantified. I can tell you that I'm imagining a pink elephant, but I cannot prove it to you. You would be taking my word for it. I am not willing to accept that the way I speak or don't speak causes damage by default. The fact is that as a human being alive on planet earth in the year 2019, no other human being has any authority to impose upon me their viewpoints with respect to how I should or should not speak. Perhaps these efforts to dictate my thoughts, speech and behavior affect negative consequences on me. If they do, this is for me to deal with. It is not for me to dictate to you based on an unprovable notion that I am being harmed.

I'm not down with this "All Feelings Are Valid" stuff. I've seen billboards that say this. This cannot possibly be true, and is thus a lie. How do I know its a lie? Because the inverse of this statement is "All thoughts are valid" and this cannot possibly be true.

gender is nearly impossible to escape. i have never met a single person who doesn't use gender in relating to others.

In the olden days, we didn't use gender. We used biological sex. If I filled out a job application, it said "Sex" not "Gender." Like it or not, 99% of all human beings who have ever walked the face of the earth were conceived because a biological male's penis entered a biological woman's vagina and the sperm fertilized the egg, and the baby that was born was either biologically male or biologically female 99% of the time. This is objective fact.

basically *every* social interaction is affected in some way by gender, especially interactions between strangers but close relationships as well. cis people tend not to notice this because they don't have any point of comparison.

Now you are speaking to my experience, which based on my research of these issues, is a "no-no."

These are also opinions, which is okay. I have them too.

many trans people, myself included, would love to exist in a world without gender. but that's not an option. our options are being treated as a man, a woman, or a subhuman freak.

I have preferences with respect to the world around me as well. For example, I would prefer not to be referred to as "cis." However, I do realize that it has happened and will continue to happen and I have almost no power to change it.

As far as being treated as a man, I think this is incorrect. Boys become men through their actions. We can become "less of a man" depending on our behavior. I would assert that this dynamic does not exist for women. "Man up" is a thing. The fact is that there are certain accomplishments and rites of passage to be seen as a man, or at least there used to be. This aspects seem like they are being phased out.

If being a man is something I attained by various means (showing courage, determination, etc.) as I was socialized, and now we are seeing an extended adolescence and increasingly boys are never actually becoming men through their actions even as they age, it is simply not possible for a biological female to claim to be male and be accepted by me and other men as a man. Why? Because when I was doing day labor in Portland and we were roofing and the guy in his 20's quit after a few hours, that's not a man. Maybe he will become one in the future, but on that jobsite he was not accepted by me and the other men on the same level as us, and that has nothing to do with gender in my opinion. Another opinion is that I believe that my experiences as a biological male who identifies as male are being invalidated and demeaned, and this cannot possibly be healthy for our society.

seriously, can cis people please shut the fuck up about being trans? because you don't get it, it's embarrassing for everyone. every damn new ager with some theory about "energies" and debunked pop neurology thinks they know how trans people work and you all know NOTHING.

Once again speaking to my experience. I can do anything a transperson can, and I can do anything a biological female can do other than have children including having strong opinions and not shutting the fuck up. I did not come to the earth with this brain and these ideas to be silent. I've got to deal with ya'll and ya'll have to deal with me. That's just how it is.

........ i'm not even going to touch your ridiculous worldview but if you're going to form opinions based on suicide statistics, why don't you look for what being isolated does to people? being trans will rip your support network away like almost nothing else. you start to expect that at least half the people you encounter in every situation are hostile to your existence. even the ones who aren't will turn on you if you act too much like yourself. you learn not to trust anyone apart from other trans people. and you most likely have trauma at this point, along with everyone you *can* trust, so even the support you do have is fucked up from that.

"Ridiculous worldview" is an opinion.

I was raised by Jehovah's Witnesses in a literal mind control cult. What I would never even consider doing is expect the people around me to be able to modify their behavior in order to make my journey through the world easier. I believe that would be insane.

but nah, it's probably just that trans people are mentally ill for breaking social norms and not adhering to whatever the fuck you said about gender energies.

People are always going to have opinions and I don't see how you have any right to shame or ridicule them for it. However, you have the free will and power to do so, just like all the shitty people who go out of their way to make life hard for transpeople.

whew. this was a good thread idea. but i'm gonna link to this every time i need to make the point that cis people nearly always fail to be good about trans stuff. even the cis people who are alright. i've been lurking on this site for a while and it really drives home the thought that if a space isn't just queer, it's not going to be queer-friendly.

"Even the cis people who are all right." Wow.. I would NEVER say "Even the transpeople who are all right." How demeaning and insulting. Are you the type of person I am now expected to play nice with?

 

[feralautistic]

i'm sorry you were offended by my feelings @benton

 

[benton]

i'm sorry you were offended by my feelings @benton

I am not into feelings. I am into thoughts, ideas, discussion and debate. Occasionally I encounter a worthy adversary in debate, which allows me the opportunity to explore new ideas and sharpen my sword, so to speak.

I would consider my feelings with respect to the ideas, discussion and debate to be besides the point and largely irrelevant.

Let is not forget that feelings are by nature irrational.

 

[Muffin Mouth]

it is simply not possible for a biological female to claim to be male and be accepted by me and other men as a man.

I love this piece of art and the expansive sentiment in reflects. I think it is possible for you to accept others as they are, and I hope someday you do.
You say that you value debate, discussion, thoughts and ideas, but you also mention that you only "occasionally" meet a worthy adversary in debate. I know so many people who are intellectually stimulating and I feel sad when I encounter one who is struggling to get beyond the entry level respect necessary to knowing and growing with others.
I am a man, but I sense that what that means to me is a bit different than it is to you. Am I less of a man for walking off a roofing job in the middle of a shift to go home and put on a skirt and gaze upon my beauty in the mirror? You say that feelings can't be quantified, but I sense you have placed some value in how you have quantified how masculine you feel in comparison to how you perceive others. It is admirable that you want to "sharpen my sword, so to speak", but sometimes its also good to stop focusing on how sharp it is and just concentrate on not falling upon it.

 

[feralautistic]

I am not into feelings. I am into thoughts, ideas, discussion and debate. Occasionally I encounter a worthy adversary in debate, which allows me the opportunity to explore new ideas and sharpen my sword, so to speak.

I would consider my feelings with respect to the ideas, discussion and debate to be besides the point and largely irrelevant.

Let is not forget that feelings are by nature irrational.

what does not being into feelings mean? why would you bothing having debates, if you didn't feel some excitement or joy in doing so? or if you want greater knowledge and reason, what purpose does it serve if it doesn't bring you happiness?

we seem to have a difference in values, only you believe yours is objective fact. i'm comfortable being a person with subjective desires and feelings. why should i accept the predominating cultural beliefs when they're against me?

 

[Deleted member 125]

So, @benton this isn't a debate topic where "phew folks I feel really strongly that store brand tastes the same as Pepsi lets talk about it" topic. It's just not. Yer statements and apparently how you feel are transphobic, fucking straight up (no pun intended). The only reason I'm even considering not just banning you right now is because the purpose of this thread is to educate people like you who may not know any better. Although personally if it's worth the time/trouble is to be seen, so don't be surprised if yer no longer welcome on stp.

Nobody cares about religion as a excuse as to why you think not treating someone with a basic level of decency is ok. That's grasping at straws because come on, if yer religious or spiritual or whatever beliefs keep you from being a decent person you really just arnt.

This isn't just for one user, this is to make it crystal clear that this thread is a place for people to learn, not to argue why they refuse to act like a decent (and I'm really reaching here by saying decent, because if that's too much to ask holy fuck what a prick you must be if you can't comprehend this by now) person.

 

[croc]

I can do anything a biological female can do other than have children including having strong opinions and not shutting the fuck up.

So uhhh.... Do u uh.... Not think this is sexist as fuck or?
I've seen u say some pretty fuckin ridiculous and moronic shit before but this might take the cake.
Btw we def know u understand how to not shut the fuck up, point made.

In the olden days, we didn't use gender. We used biological sex. If I filled out a job application, it said "Sex" not "Gender." Like it or not, 99% of all human beings who have ever walked the face of the earth were conceived because a biological male's penis entered a biological woman's vagina and the sperm fertilized the egg, and the baby that was born was either biologically male or biologically female 99% of the time. This is objective fact.

There's a thing that happens called "change". Wild concept, I know.
Do u understand that less than 100 years ago white people still thought black people were animals built for our use, females were too stupid to vote, etc etc etc
These were widely accepted as factual and "just how things are" and ur not gonna believe this but they changed.

If being a man is something I attained by various means (showing courage, determination, etc.) as I was socialized, and now we are seeing an extended adolescence and increasingly boys are never actually becoming men through their actions even as they age, it is simply not possible for a biological female to claim to be male and be accepted by me and other men as a man.

That is not how u became a man, that's how u became the man u want to be. Men come in a million different shapes and sizes and with different hobbies, strengths, and weaknesses.

I can do anything a transperson can

Besides exercise compassion for trans people.

 

[Older Than Dirt]

Like a lot of people here, I am a person with a strong tendency to back the underdog in any fight, and trans people are clearly underdogs in our society, so i am sympathetic.

And "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", and all the people i hate hate trans folks, same result.

And i wouldn't be here if it weren't for a visceral belief that people have a right to live their lives as they choose, and fuck anyone who says different.

But this thread has kind of morphed from talking about pronoun usage (which i think is mostly just a matter of politeness (on both sides)) to coming pretty close to saying there is one, and only one, correct and acceptable way to think about sex and gender.

According to this "only acceptable way to think about sex and gender", "trans-men" are exactly the same as biological males (even though they may be able to become pregnant and bear children), and "trans-women" are exactly the same as biological females (even though they will never menstruate, become pregnant or bear children, or experience menopause, and won't, on average, live longer than biological males). Anyone who notices that these are very debatable assertions is a fascist and a transphobe to be banned from "safe spaces", "cancelled", and silenced.

If gender is just a social construction, and biological sex has nothing to do with gender, why is it very common for trans persons to take hormones of the biologically opposite sex in order to mimic the biological sex characteristics (beards, breasts, etc) of the gender identity they profess?

Of course gender is a social construction, but it is a social construction built on the realities that males and females have different physiology, and different reproductive functions.

Maybe i am mistaken in the above statements- if i am, i am eager to learn why. Tell me why i'm wrong, using actual evidence. Saying things like

seriously, can cis people please shut the fuck up about being trans?

isn't very effective argument. i think if i were to say "Seriously, can trans-people please shut the fuck up about biological sex and normal people?", a lot of folks would think i was a bigoted asshole with no ability to actually present any real arguments.

And of course what you actually mean isn't "can [persons whose biological sex and gender presentation are aligned] please shut the fuck up about being trans?", but actually "I demand that persons whose biological sex and gender presentation are aligned speak about being trans in exactly the way i tell them to"- by, for example using preferred pronouns, and refraining from expressing any opinions different from yours.

"Tranny" has been correctly identified as a slur in this thread by people who freely speak of "cis" men and "cis" women. I thought labeling members of groups you don't belong to with terms rejected by members of that group was wrong, and made you a bigoted asshole?

Anarchism means accepting diversity, not imposing conformity. People have the right to do what the fuck they want, and to live how the fuck they want, and to say and think what the fuck they want. And of course they have to accept the consequences of doing those things. Trying to impose your views on others through force or social pressure isn't very anarchist.

 

[Older Than Dirt]

@ScarletMountain : And you wonder why people hate hippies like you?

 

[Deleted member 125]

@Older Than Dirt @ScarletMountain take it to pm's.