Speaking of Anarchy... (1 Viewer)

george990

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Gotcha!

BTW... Since I havent offended anybody lately, Ill have another go at it. LOL

J/K Anyways, so the other day we were talking, and Anarchy came up.... And someone mentioned Mexico... Here was their arguement...

Mexico is practically anarchy already. Mexicos government is less effective lets say than in the US... You can get away with just about anything in mexico. Steroids are legal. Pills and drugs which are considered "controlled substances" in the US can easily be bought at any pharmacy in mexico without a prescription. Gangs and drug cartels run a muck on society virtually unchecked... In fact, so much so that groups of people in smaller communities are banning together to form little mlitias to fight back and basically just protect themselves from the cartels because their government is in-effective in stopping the cartels, or protecting its citizens from them... So people are taking matters into their own hands and arming themselves with high powered rifles patrolling the streets. In other words, the in-effectiveness of Mexico's policia means that the citizens make up the difference by self reliance and commmunities regulating themselves... But self regulation, and self governed society is basically the concept of anarchy right? What would the real result be? Chaos? Corruption? Drug cartels? Tons of smaller groups forming to try and keep order? Doesnt that sound similar to gangs? If your looking for Anarchy, Mexico is practically right next door.

Now, I grew up in the United states, and Ive never spent much time in Mexico... But Ive watched enough youtube documentaries about issues in Mexico, to know that theres atleast a little truth in that... Im not saying that Mexico is a country with no government, or that they're an anarchist society... But He kind of had a point...

So how similar do you think Mexico is to anarchy, and why?

For people who claim to be anarchist, what country would you rather live in if you could, based on your beliefs...

Personally, think theres a little bit of anarchy in every country, somtimes for the better but usually for the worst. I also think that Anarchy isn't a dominant society structure anywhere in the world because government is very necessarry. Look at the middle east where their government is practically useless and terrorist run around taking over villages and strong arming their way into authority.... Anarchy doesnt work on a large scale, because even if people are willing to cooperate, theres always people who arent... And without armies, police, and judges to keep order, anybody can come in and challenge you. The next hitler will come in and infiltrate the group, gaining followers, slowly gaining control over people and soon enough, overthrow the current policy. In an anarchist society, What structure is in place to defend against such manipulations? Is everybody going to call together a community meeting to discuss the matter? Is a defense team going to be under vollunteer only circumstnces? If not, who will fund it? They would quickly be overpowered, and over thrown... There's a need for authority. There's a need for control... Without it, its a free for all. Every man for himself. Without it, the person in control would simply be the cartel with the most members and the most guns, and everybody else would have no choice but to obey or get killed... People are always putting down the government, but anybody with common sense is thankful to have one. One of the best in the world actually...

Do you really think in an anarchist society, you could get working class people to fund social aid or handouts like food stamps. Hell no! Nobody wants to help someone else. If I can get up and go to work everyday, so can you! Right, thats what most of them will be saying... who's gonna force cooperation?

Anarchy is great if your running a homeless shelter or a small retreat. Anywhere that a small group of like minded individuals are simply trying to co-exist in the same habitat or work together for a common goal... They can make group decisions together, about things that mutually effect them all... And together, they can remove, or kick out the people who dont participate within their small community... But on a large scale, people rely on the government to do the dirty work. Anarchy just wouldnt be effective in creating much more than chaos on a large scale. I think in an Anarchy society, murder and crime would skyrocket and become unmaneagable.
 
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george990

george990

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Without a violent force like police, and military, you would have no way of stopping violence... Which means that the most violent person or group would take over and gain control. So in an Anarchist society, how would you deal with such threats? You have to fight fire with fire. Drastic circumstances call for drastic measures. An anarchist society would have no choice but to be taken over and dominated, or put together some kind of group to fight back. At some point there has to simply be an above all law. And eventually thing would turn out to be pretty similar to how they are today, or it would all fall apart and be taken over by someone more organized

Society has been evolving for thousands of years. When are people gonna start acting like it... Dont you think all these alternatives have been tried before? They dont work because they dont work.... Things have evolved the way they have for a reason.
 

BardoBard

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Violence is not ok, plain and simple. Government is fundamentally violent. It is not moral to commit violence. There's nothing else to it.
We dont live in a moral universe, and a well governed state is a much less violent experience than an absense of government.

So called anarchists have been the second most criminally violent group of people I've encountered (behind organized crime). If you dont watch your back on the streets you're bound to get learned.
 

Dameon

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This is a really common mistake. Anarchy doesn't mean no rules, anarchy means no rulers. You can have rules and consequences with no hierarchy. Mexico is a perfect example of the failures of a hierarchical society, not the failures of anarchy. The rules are circumvented because the people in charge of enforcing them are completely corrupt. With an anarchy, it's up to everybody to enforce the rules, meaning that unless you somehow manage to bribe a majority of the population, you can't circumvent the rules.

Hitler was only possible because of hierarchy. You've got this idea that anarchy inevitably will lead to one "strong" person taking control, but the strength is in a united, educated populace. Hitler used the hierarchical structure to take control and hide his true actions and agenda. You've got it completely backwards; you don't get Hitlers from anarchy, you get Hitlers when you give single people power over the population, rather than the population having the power. People "elect" their leaders, and then wash their hands of all the leader's actions from that point.

We live in a digital world where even the poorest person in our country has a constant, instant connection with everybody in the world in their pocket. We get detailed information delivered in a constant stream via social media and aggregate sites. But our way of handling democracy is bloated and built around an easily manipulated system designed for people who had to communicate by sending dudes on horses. We have the tools to completely take the country literally into our own hands, but the hierarchy won't ever use them voluntarily because those people know that that's the end of their power.
 
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george990

george990

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With an anarchy, it's up to everybody to enforce the rules, meaning that unless you somehow manage to bribe a majority of the population, you can't circumvent the rules.

Hitler was only possible because of hierarchy. You've got this idea that anarchy inevitably will lead to one "strong" person taking control, but the strength is in a united, educated populace.

What makes you think that everybody will enforce rules? I think the biggest problem will be that nobody enforces the rules... Those who try will eventually give up for lack of cooperation from others.

And No, I dont have an idea that one strong person will take over... I actually have exactly the opposite thoughts.. I think that the group as a whole will break up into a whole bunch of small groups, many opposing each other and none able to agree until everything becomes pure chaos and the whole system collapses because theres nobody in charge.
 

Dameon

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What makes you think that everybody will enforce rules? I think the biggest problem will be that nobody enforces the rules... Those who try will eventually give up for lack of cooperation from others.
Because human beings cooperate. It's fundamental to our nature. I don't know if you feel like I need to prove that or something, but it seems very apparent to me, and I can show you a million examples of how our tendency is to work together.

Rules existed and were enforced before designated rule enforcers. Police are a relatively modern invention, but organized society clearly existed before there were people to enforce the rules. Groups tend to coalesce, not fracture, because there's better survival for the group in having a larger group. When hierarchies collapse, that's not an example of anarchy resulting in chaos, that's the effects of the hierarchy.
 

BardoBard

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Id take real Democracy (Athens) or a socialist Republic (like the US) over a regressive ideology like Anarchy / Libertarianism

Populations are too large now and corporate entities too powerful for wishy washy gray area organizing. Not too long ago entire states were deforested, mining industries would freely dump all their waste in rivers, most workers were paid jack with employers able to black list anyone who challenged the status quo on their own.

What we do need is smarter governance, more compassion, less partisanship and less corruption in high offices. Not libertarianism or anarchy
 

Dameon

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Id take real Democracy (Athens) or a socialist Republic (like the US) over a regressive ideology like Anarchy / Libertarianism
Real democracy and anarchy are basically the same thing. With full democracy, you don't need elected officials, because the will of the people is directly expressed through the vote. Anarchy isn't "regressive", it's a relatively recent form of government that essentially fulfills the dream of democracy: the population makes the choices.
 
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george990

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Im not saying your wrong about that... I watched quite a few video documentaries about mexico's cartels, and a few other problems... It seemed like everyone is kind of on their own so to speak... Meaning the only way to take community action is to take to the streets and rally up the locals. In other words try and gather people to work together.... And as a result, most people feel pretty powerless...

I dont think anarchy is nearly as glamorous as people think.... Mexico seems anarchy as fuck to me... People are left to basically govern themselves as anarchists... And its up to everybody to solve the problems with the drug gangs and its up to them to get control over the cartels.... And most people are just fucking clueless because they dont know what to do....

My point is to forget the fact that mexico has a government and look at mexico as an ANARCHY community... In all reality, its a fair comparison.... The people are left to their own devices to govern themselves and there they are just wishing they had an organized government to come in and solve the problems for them so they can focus on their own life. So Anarchy is not this glamorous society where everyone cooperates and things get worked out....

People in Mexico are crying out for help wishing they had a government that would do something... So if the government wont stop the bad guys... Why would the government stop them from stopping the bad guys... In a way, its kinda like they simply dont have a government altogether.... And its up to the people to come together to find a solution... My point is.... HMMM. Whats that called? O yea! ANARCHY. Look how much good its doing them

And behind it all, the fundimental problem, is that when its up to EVERYBODY to enforce the rules, the rules simply dont get enforced... Some people try, but ultimately you cant get enough people to cooperate, because people tend to NOT work together. I dont know what makes you think that its human nature to work together.... Have you got even the slightest clue whats going on in the world? OBVIOUSLY thats a pipe dream. No disrespect, but its obviously not like that in the real world...

AGAIN, on a small scale, very smll group of likeminded individuals, YES It is very possible... With a larger group of people, people with different views and different motives... It just dosnt work out that way.
 
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Dameon

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My point is to forget the fact that mexico has a government and look at mexico as an ANARCHY community... In all reality, its a fair comparison.... The people are left to their own devices to govern themselves and there they are just wishing they had an organized government to come in and solve the problems for them so they can focus on their own life. So Anarchy is not this glamorous society where everyone cooperates and things get worked out....
No, it's not a fair comparison. Mexico has a hierarchy, it continues to have a hierarchy. It's not in a state of anarchy, it's in a state of failed hierarchy. It's not anarchy that put Mexico in the state they're in, it's democracy. It's not as if Mexico embarked on a bold experiment of establishing an anarchic government, they have a hierarchical government and it's completely corrupt. The hierarchy exists, and the problem is that the people under the hierarchy don't have the authority to effectively enforce the rules. That authority is removed by the hierarchical government.

And behind it all, the fundimental problem, is that when its up to EVERYBODY to enforce the rules, the rules simply dont get enforced... Some people try, but ultimately you cant get enough people to cooperate, because people tend to NOT work together.
You said this already. I'll repeat, we managed several thousands of years of civilization without specialized rule enforcers. The police are a recent invention. People tend to work together; I don't know where you get this idea that they don't. All of civilization is a testimony to the fact that people very clearly do tend to work together. We're a social species; we're genetically engineered to want to work together. We cluster together into groups, into towns, into cities, into countries because we want to work together. Everything human beings have accomplished has come from working together.
 
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george990

george990

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Im not sure if your just extremely optimistic or dillusional... But a person who tries to see the best in others might be called naive.

You might need to refresh your memory on some of the history lessons for the last few thousand years.. I think you'll be dissapointed.


But on a serious note... Ive got a very serious question... If everything Ive said isnt true, and people naturally want to work together, and people dont need police or armies to enforce rules... Then WHY is there not a single functioning Anarchist society anywhere in the world? I mean if its such a great philosophy, and it lacks the major flaws of the worlds strongest societies like the USA, Russia, and Canada... Then why cant any 1 single group hold it together? If it were any better, you'd think there would be atleast 1. Somewhere, anywhere?
 

Dameon

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You might need to refresh your memory on some of the history lessons for the last few thousand years.. I think you'll be dissapointed.


But on a serious note... Ive got a very serious question... If everything Ive said isnt true, and people naturally want to work together, and people dont need police or armies to enforce rules... Then WHY is there not a single functioning Anarchist society anywhere in the world? I mean if its such a great philosophy, and it lacks the major flaws of the worlds strongest societies like the USA, Russia, and Canada... Then why cant any 1 single group hold it together? If it were any better, you'd think there would be atleast 1. Somewhere, anywhere?
Which history lessons, specifically? Like the one where we started out as a lot of small tribes, which is a group of people who work together, which is the smallest unit a civilization can exist in, and all worked together to hunt and forage, bringing in more food than we could individually, and worked together to trade resources and create better living for everybody involve? The part where we worked together to form larger and larger societies, to the point now where we massive societies with tens of millions of people working together?

Is there some specific time limit you're talking about when you talk about groups holding it together? The USA isn't exactly falling apart, and neither are most other countries. The world as a whole is stabilizing; the rate of extreme poverty is decreasing, living standards are increasing, crime is decreasing. There's problems, especially from an ethical standpoint, but I would say that overall the world is not falling apart. This isn't naivete, this is facts.

There are a variety of functioning anarchist communities. They haven't all worked out, but it's not as if hierarchical governments don't fail. They have a spectacular tendency to get corrupt as all hell and then fail.
 
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george990

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You said this already. I'll repeat, we managed several thousands of years of civilization without specialized rule enforcers.

We definately did not go thousands of years without specialized rule enforcers. They havent always been as sophisticated as they are today... Knights, vikings, armies and warriors go back about as far as human existance.

Reguardless, I think your failing to see the bigger picture.... When people can make something mutually beneficial, they work together. Not to help the world tho. To help themselves. Your taking it out of context tho.... People with opposing views dont work together. People with different motivations dont work together... To not have a state, not have a police force, not have an army, and not have "specialized police enforcers" just wont work. Whos responsibility will it be to deal with gangs? What about drug cartels? What about foreign governments looking to take control of your land. These are the reasons why this idealic thinking doesnt work... upstanding community organizers and public figures dont work with drug cartels... In an Anarchist society, they would go to war with each other and anyone in the community who tries to stand against them... Look at mexico.... What about other countries, with different leaders? At some point in history, every country has gone to war with another country... Thats what I mean by not working together... People dont work together because they feel the need to improve the world. They do it when its mutually beneficial. But thats a whole different subject by itself. I dont think the topic of financial gain and mutually beneficial business arrangements has anything to do with Anarchy vs hierarchy because it would exist in both worlds, unless they did away with the money system altogether.
 

Dameon

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We definately did not go thousands of years without specialized rule enforcers. They havent always been as sophisticated as they are today... Knights, vikings, armies and warriors go back about as far as human existance.
Knights, armies, and warriors aren't rule enforcers, and haven't been traditionally used that way.

People with opposing views dont work together. People with different motivations dont work together... To not have a state, not have a police force, not have an army, and not have "specialized police enforcers" just wont work.
People with opposing views work together literally all the time. There's people at work that are antivaxx, and guess what...we work together. It's not crazy, we all do it. I even work with people who have different motivations. My motivation is to buy a boat, my coworker's is to retire and have plenty of time and money. Somehow, though, we still manage to work together. Working together with people that have opposing views and motivations is part of what I like to call "being an adult".

Whos responsibility will it be to deal with gangs? What about drug cartels? What about foreign governments looking to take control of your land. These are the reasons why this idealic thinking doesnt work... upstanding community organizers and public figures dont work with drug cartels... In an Anarchist society, they would go to war with each other and anyone in the community who tries to stand against them...
The peoples' responsibility, just like it is now, but without the use of hierarchical authority. The many can always overpower the few, that's a historical fact. The drug cartels don't have all their power just because they have guns, they have it because the people who are empowered specifically to combat those cartels are being told not to. By somebody whose authority comes from hierarchy. Who is corrupt. Once again, you're laying failures of hierarchical government at the feet of anarchy, but it doesn't work that way. The problem is that the people have given their power to a government that refuses to then use that power for the people. It's not like the people are allowed to form their own militias or arm themselves to protect themselves from the cartels; the hierarchical government prohibits them from doing those things, because they gave their power to it.

Look at mexico.... What about other countries, with different leaders? At some point in history, every country has gone to war with another country... Thats what I mean by not working together... People dont work together because they feel the need to improve the world. They do it when its mutually beneficial.
Dude, you keep pointing at Mexico like it's some sort of crowning example of anarchy. It's not anarchy, its government exists and is effective, but they ignore certain activity because of corruption. Mexico is not acting in an anarchic state, and it hasn't been brought to where it is because of anarchy. The hierarchy is the problem there, you can't point to democracy and try to say it's a failure of anarchy.

Yes, countries go to war, and why? Who starts those wars? Who tells people that they have to serve in military, and who tells the military to go kill other people? The leaders. Countries go to war because of hierarchy. Working together is always mutually beneficial over time, this has been wargamed endlessly via the prisoner's dilemma, it's provable. In a non-zero sum game, cooperation is the winning long-term strategy. What do all wars have in common? The few "in charge" ordering the people to go kill and die while they sit safe.

Cooperation is what we tend toward naturally. Even if there's examples of human beings not cooperating, that doesn't mean that we don't have an overall tendency to cooperate. The fact that we do have an overall tendency to cooperate is extremely evident in the fact that we're not just living naked in the trees stabbing each other with sticks before quickly going extinct because we don't have any other very good evolutionary traits. Human beings cooperate a lot more than they don't, often even in situations where they will never get a reward. As an example, the area I live in just got hit by a massive flood. As soon as there was word it was coming, the community was organizing to help people that were trapped, to get food and water to people that needed it, clearing roads and spreading updates on the disaster. They didn't need a hierarchy to get this started, they didn't do it because they expected some sort of reward.
 

salxtina

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Anarchism is a practice, not a speculative future society
Where there are private corporations exploiting and subjugating people anarchism is not being practiced.
There are practices of anarchism, and horizontal/anti-oppressive struggles for autonomy, in mexico as in every country, that you could look at
But also, I am, like you, a US-raised person who hasn't lived in mexico, so I'll use that as a stopping point rather than a point to jump off and assign experiences to people I don't know...
 

Maki40

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As defined as a society with no rulers, I would like to give Anarchy a try and see how it goes, but there does have to be some kind system of law and order. Personally, I'd prefer artificial intelligence to not necessarily rule but to take into account everyones well being as a whole and make decisions accordingly, enforce laws, and be our judge. I'm tired of being at the whim of a human being in a uniform (cop or judge) and politicians who will undoubtedly impose their own personal ideologies, biases, and stupidity. In other words, humans can't help but enforce their own beliefs and opinions so Id prefer a nonbiased referree of sorts like AI.
Currently, Americas ruler isn't the President but rather the top 1% as a whole which the President happens to be in but thats beside the point. Of course, the people could rise up and regain power if we could all get together, but that's probably impractical with the wealthy's powerful divide and conquer strategy.
I do believe we have a decent system of government compared with other countries like Mexico, though not as good at the Scandanavian countries. At least, the people do have some power and we don't have a singular ruler, and were not nearly as corrupt as most countries though certainly plenty corrrupt. Long story short, we have lots of room for improvement.
 
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Mexico is not anarchic at all. Their government is very corrupt and is complicit in the fleecing of the people. The government and the cartels both impose hierarchies on the working people. This is in contradiction to the definition of anarchy, an = lack of, archy = hierarchy so this extends to not just oppression from the stae in the form of police but from gangs too. Also there would be military in anarchist society just not hierarchical military, instead horizontally organized like the EZLN army that resides in Chiapas, Mexico.
 

Willis

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the problem with AI is computer thingys tend to pick up the biases of programmers. like how facial recognition works best for white men. voice recognition can't handle accents. etc

so life under AI rule probably isn't going to be fun for all those people who the machines can't handle.

plus i'm stocking up of strong magnets to take out robot overlords in a hypothetical terminator future.
 

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