Speaking of Anarchy... (1 Viewer)

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OK...I wasn't going to chime in, originally, on this because many intelligent/relevant comments have already been made; but I'll contribute one point:
The basic conclusion of the, albeit, special anarchism expounded by Marx, is that politics qua politics (i.e., Political relations as a phenomenon) is negative, and to be superseded. So, the underlying question pertains to, dialectically, evolving beyond all authority/hegemony, etc. That's the leap that's analogous to going from original (tribal) communism to feudalism....
I fear I may just have sidetracked the whole debate, though...!
 
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OP
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IDK man. Im not saying anybody is right or wrong. Im not saying im right or wrong cause I dont know...

I think anarchy is one of those ideas that look great on paper, sounds good, but in real life it just doesnt work out the way you think it would.. In real life it doesnt look the way you would think it should... But it sounds awesome! ya know.

To not have state, no government, no authority, no rulers, and no heirarchy... And still have security, law and order... Is like trying to build a house without wood or bricks or concrete... You may as well grab a shovel and just dig you a big whole. Live like a wild rabbit.

You think its like happy little towns all over cooperating with eachother and living peacfully...

What its really like is some farming village deep in rural south india where people get their arms cut off for stealing and their dicks cut off for cheating on their wives. And woman have their cliterus forcefully removed so they wont cheat on their husbands... And extremists are constantly at war over territory and EVERYONE lives in poverty... People are killing each other like its nobodys business and anybody who tries to take control gets a bullet between the eyes. The most anybody can do is be friends with as many decent people as possible and run around together watching each others backs like small gangs.... So a bunch of different groups get together critisizng other groups actions and then fighting with each other until its constant turf war between all the small groups and everything falls apart because its pure fucking chaos and nobody is in charge. Thats how it would play out in real life.
 
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Chaos always rules, state or no state, slave or free. Hail Eris!
Its great, until people are starving to death because the economy collapsed and you have to trade your valuables for a piece of bread. Pretty soon you'll have to carry a hammer to hit theives with everytime you go for a bicycle ride.... Its all fun and games until shit gets real.

Its funny how people talk about situations they've never been in, but in real life, if they were faced with that situation for real, not a word they ever spoke would be true.

Thats a true story by the way... My dad has a friend who moved here from another country. And I cant remember exactly where he was from off the top of my head, but living conditions there are much worse than in the united states. Anyways, he used to tell me stories about things that happenned back home. And he used to talk all the time about the theives who would jump you if you rode a bike thru a certain part of town... And he lived on one side of it, and worked on the other side of it... And they were too poor to own an automobile, so everyday, he had to ride his bike thru the bad part of town, not once, but TWICE! He said he would get so sick of being jumped that he'd carry a hammer with him everywhere he went. He said one time, they stole his bike, his boots, his shirt and his hat... Everything except his underwear, and he had to walk home... He said thats it, ive had enough of this, and he started carrying a hammer to work everyday... He said put a few guys in the hospital but tried not to kill anyone.

Where that guy grew up was fucked up. If I remember right, he said it was a communist country... He hated it, obviously, he moved to the united states... But anyways, he said the government was in charge of everything. You couldnt take your money and just go buy whatever you wanted... The government would give each family a certain number of vouchers for everything they needed. Like you could only get 2 packs of bacon a month, 4 loafs of bread, 2 ham or whatever... Even clothing... They didnt sell pre-made clothes in that country. Again, each month you'd get a voucher. like 2 yards of fabric or 4 yards of fabric.... So youd take the fabric home and make your clothes with it. He was a big ol fat guy and he said America is the greatest place in the world because you can buy as much bacon as you want... He said one year for his birthday, that was his birthday present... For the first time in his life he got 2 pieces of bacon instead of 1. FYI, he wasnt fat until he came to America....

Anyways, the only way you could get more of something was if you saved up your vouchers for something you didnt want, and you traded them with another family... Like I'll give you 2 loafs of bread for 2 yards of fabric. Youd trade the vouchers and go get it with the voucher... He said it was a horrible system because people often starved, or needed medicine that was unavailable... It wasnt like in America where you can just take your money and go buy whatever you want... AND he said the worste part of it all, was how they were assigned jobs... You cant decide, I want to be a carpenter, or I want to be a computer tech.. You dont have a choice. They tell you what job you will work whether you like it or not, thats your job... Like if your dad is in a certain field or works a certain trade, then they will assign you to the same trade assuming you've learned from him..... If you dont want that job and you want to do something else, too bad. Im not sure what happens if you refuse to work the job you were assigned. I dont know if they shoot you or just take you to prison or what...

Its pretty hardcore in countries like that... People are always trying to escape and sometimes people are caught trying to leave and the punishment is hardcore for it. People in America really dont know how good they've got it.
 
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Dameon

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What its really like is some farming village deep in rural south india where people get their arms cut off for stealing and their dicks cut off for cheating on their wives. And woman have their cliterus forcefully removed so they wont cheat on their husbands... And extremists are constantly at war over territory and EVERYONE lives in poverty...
This is called setting up a strawman. You don't just get to make up some mythical village and present it as an example of the results of an anarchist government. This is not what it's really like. Show me a single anarchist community that operates in the way you say. Your argument is based on your own assumptions, not actual facts. You apparently can't mentally separate societies operating in a state of lawlessness from societies that are capable of creating rules and self-policing themselves.
 
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do you realize that in half the world today, most of that stuff in considered common? Its not some un-realistic comparison... Those are just common realities of life in todays world... Do you have any kind of clue what goes on in the world? Or do you got your head so far up your own ass that you dont know whats going on outside of the room your sitting in?
 
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Dameon

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do you realize that in half the world today, most of that stuff in considered common? Its not some un-thinkable fantacy... Those are just common realities of life in todays world... Do you have any kind of clue what goes on in the world? Or do you got your head so far up your own ass that you dont know whats going on outside of the room your sitting in?
I didn't say it was an unthinkable fantasy, I said it wasn't an example of an anarchy.
 
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In case you havent figured it out yet, there isnt a single anarchist community that has been able to accomplish anything that lasted, anywhere in the world, through out the entire history of time. Why is that?

Ill tell you why. Because it doesnt work... Its a pipe dream. You want anarchy, go live at slab shitty in southern california... Thats probably the closest thing to Anarchy in the states... Im serious, go live there for a year and take notes. Pay attention to what kind of problems arise and take note of how people go about solving them. ya know? Try to get people to work together.... As many damn people that live there, why is there trash everywhere? If you want a crash course lesson on the realities of anarchy... Go out to slab city and since you think people are so god damn willing to work together. Round up a great big fucking group of these willing participants and go around picking up all the trash around that shithole and haul it to the dump... Theres an enormous amount of garbage everywhere at that place, and plenty of Anarchist type people for you to prove your point. Go out there and accomplish that, and I'll kiss your ass.
 
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If you think people can work together, and its human nature to work together... Heres your chance buddy.... Prove me wrong, I dare you.

In slab city, theres no heirarchy, no rulers, no government, no state, and an entire community of people... Heres the perfect opportunity for you to prove your point.... Now go out there and try to get these people to establish rules and common law amongst each other... Try to get them to do something productive and together as a community, try to get them to solve a real problem that already exists... I mean, ya know, since they're all so willing to work together.... Go assemble a team to pick up and haul off all the trash surrounding that area, establish rules about dumping and get everybody to enforce the rules... Do that, and Ill admit that I was completely wrong, you can bend over and ill kiss your ass..


It sounds good right? But in real life... It just doesnt work
 

Dameon

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In case you havent figured it out yet, there isnt a single anarchist community that has been able to accomplish anything that lasted, anywhere in the world, through out the entire history of time. Why is that?

Go out to slab city and since you think people are so god damn willing to work together. Round up a great big fucking group of these willing participants and go around picking up all the trash around that shithole and haul it to the dump... Theres an enormous amount of garbage everywhere at that place, and plenty of Anarchist type people for you to prove your point. Go out there and accomplish that, and I'll kiss your ass.
I gave you a list of actual anarchist communities, one of which has been going since the 50s, and you think you've proven anarchy is infeasible by pointing out Slab City. I've been to Slab City plenty. Slab City isn't any kind of intentional community, it's a place people specifically go to live because they don't work well with others. Even if it could fairly be considered an anarchist collective, I can point to hundreds of failures of hierarchical societies and governments. If failure of a government means that system of government is totally nonviable, hoo boy have I got some democracies to show you.
 
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I gave you a list of actual anarchist communities, one of which has been going since the 50s, and you think you've proven anarchy is infeasible by pointing out Slab City. I've been to Slab City plenty. Slab City isn't any kind of intentional community, it's a place people specifically go to live because they don't work well with others. Even if it could fairly be considered an anarchist collective, I can point to hundreds of failures of hierarchical societies and governments. If failure of a government means that system of government is totally nonviable, hoo boy have I got some democracies to show you.

We both argree that anarchy works on a small scale. Ive said that right from the beginning. But if you think it could work on an entire city, or state or country... Thats a different story.

And slab city is really a great example... If a group of anarchist could go to the slabs, establish common rules and laws about dumping trash, get the whole commmunity to agree on a proper punishment, and then get everybody there to enforce the established rules... Without any kind of heirarchy, or governing board of directors... Just get everyone to willingly cooperate like you said that people are already eager to do... If anything you said is true, you shouldnt have no problem... Just make it happen, then we'll talk. Theres nothing else to talk about, just make it happen. And everybody will recognize that you were right all along.
 

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We both argree that anarchy works on a small scale. Ive said that right from the beginning. But if you think it could work on an entire city, or state or country... Thats a different story.

And slab city is really a great example... If a group of anarchist could go to the slabs, establish common rules and laws about dumping trash, get the whole commmunity to agree on a proper punishment, and then get everybody there to enforce the established rules... Without any kind of heirarchy, or governing board of directors... Just get everyone to willingly cooperate like you said that people are already eager to do... If anything you said is true, you shouldnt have no problem... Just make it happen, then we'll talk. Theres nothing else to talk about, just make it happen. And everybody will recognize that you were right all along.
Actually, you've disagreed that anarchy can work on any scale, right from the beginning. You're goalposting.

No, Slab City isn't really a great example, because it's not an anarchy. Sorry, but you can't set some stupid trivial goalpost and say "this is what you must do to prove anarchy works". There are examples of actual working anarchist organizations. You're saying it doesn't work on a large scale (with zero proof), and that the small scale communities I've shown you don't prove anything about that. But then all of a sudden if a certain small scale community can be turned into a working anarchy, that'll suddenly prove that it can work on a large scale? At this point, you're arguing from willful ignorance, setting up arbitrary goalposts, and just moving them whenever a point is scored.

Educate yourself. Do some reading. Do some actual study of history. While you're at it, learn what logical fallacies are. Everybody with a scrap of education and intelligence already realizes I'm right. You started with a completely incorrect idea of anarchy, doubled down on that when it was pointed out that you were wrong, presented a bunch of democracies as examples of anarchy, and somehow think that the only possible way to show anarchy works is to organize a non-intentional non-anarchist community.
 

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Large scale anarchist projects would be immediate prey to organized societies and corporations

These small scale communes live within real nations which protect them from exploitation, they're really nothing more than escapist fantasies / small scale experiments / alternative subcultures
 

Dameon

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Large scale anarchist projects would be immediate prey to organized societies and corporations

These small scale communes live within real nations which protect them from exploitation, they're really nothing more than escapist fantasies / small scale experiments / alternative subcultures
Why? What are you basing your predictions on? Why do you think that anarchy means lack of organization? You can have organization without hierarchy. What is it about anarchy that people think it means people who are unable to defend themselves or organize? Anarchist communities that I've seen are highly organized.

If you have nothing to base predictions like this on other than your own thoughts, then it's pure speculation, and irrelevant.
 

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Its great, until people are starving to death because the economy collapsed and you have to trade your valuables for a piece of bread. Pretty soon you'll have to carry a hammer to hit theives with everytime you go for a bicycle ride.... Its all fun and games until shit gets real.

Its funny how people talk about situations they've never been in, but in real life, if they were faced with that situation for real, not a word they ever spoke would be true.

Thats a true story by the way... My dad has a friend who moved here from another country. And I cant remember exactly where he was from off the top of my head, but living conditions there are much worse than in the united states. Anyways, he used to tell me stories about things that happenned back home. And he used to talk all the time about the theives who would jump you if you rode a bike thru a certain part of town... And he lived on one side of it, and worked on the other side of it... And they were too poor to own an automobile, so everyday, he had to ride his bike thru the bad part of town, not once, but TWICE! He said he would get so sick of being jumped that he'd carry a hammer with him everywhere he went. He said one time, they stole his bike, his boots, his shirt and his hat... Everything except his underwear, and he had to walk home... He said thats it, ive had enough of this, and he started carrying a hammer to work everyday... He said put a few guys in the hospital but tried not to kill anyone.

Where that guy grew up was fucked up. If I remember right, he said it was a communist country... He hated it, obviously, he moved to the united states... But anyways, he said the government was in charge of everything. You couldnt take your money and just go buy whatever you wanted... The government would give each family a certain number of vouchers for everything they needed. Like you could only get 2 packs of bacon a month, 4 loafs of bread, 2 ham or whatever... Even clothing... They didnt sell pre-made clothes in that country. Again, each month you'd get a voucher. like 2 yards of fabric or 4 yards of fabric.... So youd take the fabric home and make your clothes with it. He was a big ol fat guy and he said America is the greatest place in the world because you can buy as much bacon as you want... He said one year for his birthday, that was his birthday present... For the first time in his life he got 2 pieces of bacon instead of 1. FYI, he wasnt fat until he came to America....

Anyways, the only way you could get more of something was if you saved up your vouchers for something you didnt want, and you traded them with another family... Like I'll give you 2 loafs of bread for 2 yards of fabric. Youd trade the vouchers and go get it with the voucher... He said it was a horrible system because people often starved, or needed medicine that was unavailable... It wasnt like in America where you can just take your money and go buy whatever you want... AND he said the worste part of it all, was how they were assigned jobs... You cant decide, I want to be a carpenter, or I want to be a computer tech.. You dont have a choice. They tell you what job you will work whether you like it or not, thats your job... Like if your dad is in a certain field or works a certain trade, then they will assign you to the same trade assuming you've learned from him..... If you dont want that job and you want to do something else, too bad. Im not sure what happens if you refuse to work the job you were assigned. I dont know if they shoot you or just take you to prison or what...

Its pretty hardcore in countries like that... People are always trying to escape and sometimes people are caught trying to leave and the punishment is hardcore for it. People in America really dont know how good they've got it.
Communist state, capitalist state - they're each fucked up in their own way, but with one thing in common: they're both states. Would I rather live in the US than the USSR or East Germany? Absolutely. But the latter were dictatorships, and they always suck. Any state can become a dictatorship, and any economy can collapse, and the more centralized the control, the greater the suffering. IMHO, the "we don't know how good we've got it" compared to other places argument can have some utility in certain contexts, but it doesn't address a solution to the very real corruption, oppression, and violence perpetrated by the US and all other states. It's hard for me to accept that so much anti-capitalist, anti-state sentiment by so many younger people (and older, as well, like me) is solely due to them not appreciating how good they have it. I've lost count of how many younger people I've talked to over the last couple of years that fantasize or hope for some sort of apocalypse that will collapse the global system - including a pandemic or nuclear war.
 

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