Smart Criminals.

Mankini

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What i was thinking about was the root causes of the current civil unrest in the cities....Why all the violence?

The only explanation i could come up with is stupidity. Why else would people tolerate the conditions that exist?

How else would you explain a society that imprisons some en masse while others get off with a warning?

Crime is like chess: You dont rob a liquor store if a bank is available: you wouldnt sacrifice your queen to take a pawn....

To do so would be......stupid.
 
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Jaguwar

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On the surface, I'll venture to say you are correct, generally speaking those in jail are "stupid", that is to say they did something either irrationally or at least with little common sense.

On the flip side, it seems the vast majority of criminals are there on non violent dig crimes in the first place. For those charges, the fact is there doesn't have to be something "stupid", just a simple case of song page, wrong time, as in the story above. Remove those cases from the equation and we're talking apples to apples. Oh, and refine "statutory rape" cases, too, that's a muddled mess.

People tolerate unsatisfactory conditions for a variety of reasons, from moral bankruptness of their own to laziness to a simple desire to just be left alone. In the latter case, if it doesn't directly or closely affect them, they refuse to get involved, because then they become subject to scrutiny. Can't day I blame them, really.

Note that the stupidity isn't always about breaking the law in the first place. We all break the law in small ways (and sometimes not so small). That's because there are easy too many laws and, more importantly, too many STUPID laws.

I suggest the real problem is split between stupid people in jail and the stupid people who put them there, by which I mean the ordinary citizen who encourages the passage of stupid laws, who sits on a jury, who elects the clowns so pass legislation, etc etc.

Stupidity abounds.

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recently, on another thread - there was a girl who was mentioning that she was with a guy who wanted to fly a sign, and she wanted him to do so elsewhere because she did not want her "not so legal" jeep to be taken from her, and she actually caught quite a bit of hell for this - whether warrented or not.

I jumped in and mentioned that yes, cars can be taken not because they did anything wrong but by virtue of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I mentioned about when I was in the fire dept [all volunteer out here] doing a boot drive fundraiser in a shopping center parking lot, I watched with interest the cops hasseling someone, then for whatever reason - they started looking at this parked car - I forget what it was - but they ran the plate, and a little while later it was taken to god knows where.

Did the car do anything wrong ?? I doubt it.
Did the owner do anything wrong ?? Possible.

Perhaps there was an issue with a lapse in insurance, or it's regestration expired - misuse of plates - who knows - but the point is - if the police were not dealing with this other party first, that car would have sat quietly unnoticed, and everything would have been cool.

So, the girls concern was valid in my opinion - because when the cops see something they don't like, all of a sudden - everything becomes suspicious - whether it is related or not.

This is a real good post and thread -as it really got me thinking.

Once in Brooklyn, in the late 1980s - I was strutting down 3rd ave, amaking the turn to go up 86th street.

This would be in Bay Ridge.

Bam !!
Two cops surrounded me.

I hid my quart of beer [no 40s back then] and the cops said "we don't care about that - we just want to see if you have something that could hurt someone"
So, incredible as this sounds - I said go ahead and search me, please - I said this with great concern too - and they did, and then they thanked me and went on their way.

Now - were the cops sic'ed on me because of some concerend citizen felt threatened by my then 6ft 7in 190 lb frame was decked out iwith mc boots, black pants and me leather ??

Possible.

But that ended on a good note.

More recently - last year, out here in East Derby - the cops showed up in the woods to find me and my dog finishing up a nice kayaking trip, we were relaxing at our base camp.... the cops - they asked if I saw anyone - real vague quiestion - and I replied no, then - truthfully I asked who were they looking for - because, I do see all kinds of people some I like some I don'r.

They mentioned someone living there - so that I had no answer to, but volunteered that my dog is not sensing anyone near by and we come here all the time.

The cops thanked me and split.

No, more recently - when the vermin who hang out at the boat launch decided that I had fallen from grace with all my river clean up and wildlife rescue work - and I was basically threatened - I never went back there again.

This goes with the "smart" aspect of what the original poster brought up.

Sometimes you just have to stay out of sight and fly under the radar - even if what one is doing is 100% legal - because trouble does still find you.

I actually lost my train of thought here as I am old and senile and am now more focused on taking my dog hiking - of interest, where we go is considered tresspassing - but it's the only place we can go wher ewe will not come across loose dogs, and since my dog has been attacked 2x already - I am now armed so there will not be a third time.

Once the cops rolled up on where I parked my jeep - which everyone recognizes as mine, not only because I still have my Fire Dept plate in the front - but also from all my volunteering in the city [river clean ups, wildlife rescue, etc... but still - shit, a cop running my plate....................

I said, hey that's mine... listen I was just out walking my dog here - I know it's private property that's been abandoned, but it's the only plave I can walk my dog and feel she will be safe.

Amazing as it may sound, the police officier felt my dog had a right to walk where she will be safe and not bothered - so I in turn asked - and received permission if I can hike there and it was granted on the spot.

What was that saying from The Godfather ??
Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer ???
Something like that ???

There's some serious truth there - and also in the points the original poster here is bringing up.

Cheers everyone...........................
 

Jaguwar

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For what it's worth, the police can't technically give your permission to do something on someone's else's property, all they can do is choose to turn a blind eye.

You're right though, sometimes trouble just finds you. Some will argue that if you're being the law, then you're stupid. I don't agree. Great men before me have disagreed, too... But perhaps that's a different conversation.

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real quick then I'm out and about - the human above makes an excellent point about permission..... last year [??] yeah, right before Christmas - there was an incident in the 'hood where neighbor #1's dog got loose and went down across my property to neighbor #2's house and what ever happened happened, as I was shooting skip with my 11 meter SSB gear at a place called Short Beach.

Ok, so I'm somewhat in the loop as to what happened as neighbor # 2's downstairs neighbor [neighbor # 3] filled me in.

I felt it was no big deal - until I was delivering a tray of Christmas cookies to neighbor # 1's house:

Her sister answers the door totally deadpan and asks me before I could even say Merry Christmas "Why did you call the cops on Henessy"

I was like "Whoa... hold on sister...." and then Neighbor # 1 shows up gives me a big hug and we're talking so it turns out that when neighbor # 1's sister asked the cops who called the cops they said I did.

Bullshit.

I was cursing - screaming - with they tray of Chrstmas cookies still in one hand and my fist in the air demanding officers names - I was going to crash my mighty diesel van thru the station to demand some answers [not true - the van has not started in two years] but I was furious that the cops listed me as the complaintant.

I never did confront neighbor # 2 on that, I wanted to see if they would talke to me first..........

So yeah, things can go against you real fast, even if 100% innocent.
 
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also - then I'm out - going bak to everything Voodoochile is saying -- watch The Clash movie Rude Boy..... pay real close attention throughout - and really pay attention to the very end - that sums up everything when it comes to social injustice's..............
While The Clash went on to disown that movie, I disagree and feel it is actually quite important.

But the very end - that simple exchange of words from the one man to the other - that summed up the whole thing.............. believe me.

Fucking scary when the truth comes out


73s....... over and out.
 

Mankini

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When are we ruled by rational, conscious thought, and when by mere impulse?

People are right in saying bad things happen to good people sometimes.

However, I think 99% of the time, bad things happen to people who disregard rational thought and gut instinct in favor of impulse.


7 men are playing poker. The deck is stacked anyway, so the House has the advantage. 5 of the men are honest, but 2 are cheating:....1 is a card counter and thus the House's advantage is minimized for him....However the other cheater is simply dishonest and not very bright, and so will certainly lose.

http://fractalfoundation.org/resources/what-is-chaos-theory/


 
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Right on... right on mate - listen, I could re-read everything that's been posted here all day and continue spewing forth - but I just come back in from a little hike with me dog, and now I'm going free-diving - as lately I prefer the world beneath the waters surface than what's above......

Cheers...................
 

pakratpatthemule

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Why aren't we touching race here? It's a very large factor. In my opinion we shouldn't simplify it down with judgmental language of stupid v.s. smart criminals. While yes, at base here, the big picture issue is drug prohibition in general, and yes if you go around leaving your meth pipe in your car's cupholder and running stop signs with a broken tail light, you are an idiot— but— I'm going to leave that aside and point out that certain groups of people are ultimately bigger victims of drug laws due to their race and class. The reason America's rampant drug criminalization is referred to as the new jim crow is because of how it's essentially geared to put people of color in jail for drug offenses. You could be slyly toking a one hitter, you could even be smoking a regular old cigarette but if you're black or brown, you have a much higher chance of being given a second look and if you are indeed doing something out of line, you will face worse consequences for it. A man driving down the street with weed hidden in his car is much likelier to be stopped and searched if he isn't white and he is also much likelier to be incarcerated more intensely than someone who is white.
I have a friend, who is white/upper middle class, who was allowed to snort cocaine and have another glass of wine while in police custody before they took him to a hospital for being intoxicated. They were laughing it up together even though someone called the cops on him while he was in a hotel room for drunkenly threatening someone's life. While we can argue back and forth as to whether or not his class and race had anything to do with the ease of his encounter with the police, let us first speak of statistics:

Some statistics (sources at bottom):
  • From 1980 to 2008, the number of people incarcerated in America quadrupled-from roughly 500,000 to 2.3 million people
  • African Americans are incarcerated at nearly six times the rate of whites
  • Together, African American and Hispanics comprised 58% of all prisoners in 2008, even though African Americans and Hispanics make up approximately one quarter of the US population
  • According to Unlocking America, if African American and Hispanics were incarcerated at the same rates of whites, today's prison and jail populations would decline by approximately 50%
  • One in six black men had been incarcerated as of 2001. If current trends continue, one in three black males born today can expect to spend time in prison during his lifetime
  • 1 in 100 African American women are in prison
  • Nationwide, African-Americans represent 26% of juvenile arrests, 44% of youth who are detained, 46% of the youth who are judicially waived to criminal court, and 58% of the youth admitted to state prisons (Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice).
  • About 14 million Whites and 2.6 million African Americans report using an illicit drug
[YET]
  • 5 times as many Whites are using drugs as African Americans, yet African Americans are sent to prison for drug offenses at 10 times the rate of Whites
  • African Americans represent 12% of the total population of drug users, but 38% of those arrested for drug offenses, and 59% of those in state prison for a drug offense.
  • African Americans serve virtually as much time in prison for a drug offense (58.7 months) as whites do for a violent offense (61.7 months). (Sentencing Project)

According to these statistics more whites use illicit drugs than blacks yet blacks suffer the consequences most. Are you going to tell us that it's because blacks are "stupid criminals" and that whites are "smart criminals?"

Once you're given a criminal record, your rights and opportunities suffer massive reductions which manifest themselves as debt, difficulty acquiring a job, lost time due to jailing and going to court, etc. These factors increase the poverty and profiling that initially leads people of color and those of the poverty stricken class into a repeating cycle. These people with criminal records, a.k.a., people of color according to many many statistics, are kept in poverty, separate from those who are not stuck in these cycles… segregated, separate and not equal— just like when we had the actual Jim Crow laws in the 19th century.

Let us also take into account records of alleged CIA supported drug trafficking that put crack and heroin on the street in the 80's, which coincidentally is when the number of incarcerated people in this country began to quadruple. If you read books about the history of the rise and fall of the black panthers for example, it is riddled with FBI agents attempting to corrupt the group by getting their members to engage in drug dealing and trafficking amongst many other things such as becoming informants.

These are things you don't think about when you have it easy because of your appearance. I'm not trying to pick on anyone for being white and privileged, but I'm challenging those of you who are, to think deeper about how big of a factor one's class and race are within the criminal justice system.

Sources:
naacp[dot]org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet
wikipedia[dot]org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_cocaine_trafficking
http://rt[dot]com/usa/usa-cia-drugs-poor-americas/
Excuse the strange formatting of the sources, the website would not let me hyperlink them, I think because I am a new member.
 
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Mankini

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Why aren'I was trying to get at initially. The idea I am presenting is that minorities are not genetically predisposed to criminality. They are not just hard luck cases. What they are is under attack by a society which has supreme contempt for them. In essence the only stupid criminal is one who does not realize his true enemy. we touching race here? It's a very large factor. In my opinion we shouldn't simplify it down with judgmental language of stupid v.s. smart criminals. While yes, at base here, the big picture issue is drug prohibition in general, and yes if you go around leaving your meth pipe in your car's cupholder and running stop signs with a broken tail light, you are an idiot— but— I'm going to leave that aside and point out that certain groups of people are ultimately bigger victims of drug laws due to their race and class. The reason America's rampant drug criminalization is referred to as the new jim crow is because of how it's essentially geared to put people of color in jail for drug offenses. You could be slyly toking a one hitter, you could even be smoking a regular old cigarette but if you're black or brown, you have a much higher chance of being given a second look and if you are indeed doing something out of line, you will face worse consequences for it. A man driving down the street with weed hidden in his car is much likelier to be stopped and searched if he isn't white and he is also much likelier to be incarcerated more intensely than someone who is white.
I have a friend, who is white/upper middle class, who was allowed to snort cocaine and have another glass of wine while in police custody before they took him to a hospital for being intoxicated. They were laughing it up together even though someone called the cops on him while he was in a hotel room for drunkenly threatening someone's life. While we can argue back and forth as to whether or not his class and race had anything to do with the ease of his encounter with the police, let us first speak of statistics:

Some statistics (sources at bottom):


According to these statistics more whites use illicit drugs than blacks yet blacks suffer the consequences most. Are you going to tell us that it's because blacks are "stupid criminals" and that whites are "smart criminals?"

Once you're given a criminal record, your rights and opportunities suffer massive reductions which manifest themselves as debt, difficulty acquiring a job, lost time due to jailing and going to court, etc. These factors increase the poverty and profiling that initially leads people of color and those of the poverty stricken class into a repeating cycle. These people with criminal records, a.k.a., people of color according to many many statistics, are kept in poverty, separate from those who are not stuck in these cycles… segregated, separate and not equal— just like when we had the actual Jim Crow laws in the 19th century.

Let us also take into account records of alleged CIA supported drug trafficking that put crack and heroin on the street in the 80's, which coincidentally is when the number of incarcerated people in this country began to quadruple. If you read books about the history of the rise and fall of the black panthers for example, it is riddled with FBI agents attempting to corrupt the group by getting their members to engage in drug dealing and trafficking amongst many other things such as becoming informants.

These are things you don't think about when you have it easy because of your appearance. I'm not trying to pick on anyone for being white and privileged, but I'm challenging those of you who are, to think deeper about how big of a factor one's class and race are within the criminal justice system.

Sources:
naacp[dot]org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet
wikipedia[dot]org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_cocaine_trafficking
http://rt[dot]com/usa/usa-cia-drugs-poor-americas/
Excuse the strange formatting of the sources, the website would not let me hyperlink them, I think because I am a new member.
Haha!! Heck yeah. Finally someone has penetrated to what i
 

Matt Derrick

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Why aren't we touching race here? It's a very large factor. In my opinion we shouldn't simplify it down with judgmental language of stupid v.s. smart criminals. While yes, at base here, the big picture issue is drug prohibition in general, and yes if you go around leaving your meth pipe in your car's cupholder and running stop signs with a broken tail light, you are an idiot— but— I'm going to leave that aside and point out that certain groups of people are ultimately bigger victims of drug laws due to their race and class. The reason America's rampant drug criminalization is referred to as the new jim crow is because of how it's essentially geared to put people of color in jail for drug offenses. You could be slyly toking a one hitter, you could even be smoking a regular old cigarette but if you're black or brown, you have a much higher chance of being given a second look and if you are indeed doing something out of line, you will face worse consequences for it. A man driving down the street with weed hidden in his car is much likelier to be stopped and searched if he isn't white and he is also much likelier to be incarcerated more intensely than someone who is white.
I have a friend, who is white/upper middle class, who was allowed to snort cocaine and have another glass of wine while in police custody before they took him to a hospital for being intoxicated. They were laughing it up together even though someone called the cops on him while he was in a hotel room for drunkenly threatening someone's life. While we can argue back and forth as to whether or not his class and race had anything to do with the ease of his encounter with the police, let us first speak of statistics:

Some statistics (sources at bottom):


According to these statistics more whites use illicit drugs than blacks yet blacks suffer the consequences most. Are you going to tell us that it's because blacks are "stupid criminals" and that whites are "smart criminals?"

Once you're given a criminal record, your rights and opportunities suffer massive reductions which manifest themselves as debt, difficulty acquiring a job, lost time due to jailing and going to court, etc. These factors increase the poverty and profiling that initially leads people of color and those of the poverty stricken class into a repeating cycle. These people with criminal records, a.k.a., people of color according to many many statistics, are kept in poverty, separate from those who are not stuck in these cycles… segregated, separate and not equal— just like when we had the actual Jim Crow laws in the 19th century.

Let us also take into account records of alleged CIA supported drug trafficking that put crack and heroin on the street in the 80's, which coincidentally is when the number of incarcerated people in this country began to quadruple. If you read books about the history of the rise and fall of the black panthers for example, it is riddled with FBI agents attempting to corrupt the group by getting their members to engage in drug dealing and trafficking amongst many other things such as becoming informants.

These are things you don't think about when you have it easy because of your appearance. I'm not trying to pick on anyone for being white and privileged, but I'm challenging those of you who are, to think deeper about how big of a factor one's class and race are within the criminal justice system.

Sources:
naacp[dot]org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet
wikipedia[dot]org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_cocaine_trafficking
http://rt[dot]com/usa/usa-cia-drugs-poor-americas/
Excuse the strange formatting of the sources, the website would not let me hyperlink them, I think because I am a new member.

unfortunately one of the bad parts of the traveler community is that they tend to be largely in denial of class/race/gender privilege :(
 
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Mankini

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Haha!!! Precisely. So what better time to start dissecting such demographic miscellanea than, as phatboy slim so aptly put it "right here! Right now!!" The only ones who can achieve social justice are us, beautiful anarchists. The system is absolutely content to keep their new Jim crow, and their bourgeoisie content.
 

Mankini

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Conversely, rationality and logical, linear thinking are also a huge part of this conundrum. Common sense is not common.
 

Matt Derrick

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i agree that it needs to be discussed until it's part of the general knowledge of most travel punks, i just feel like we have a long way to go :/
 

Mankini

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What stands between us and social justice? What are the major obstacles? I think u.s. arms dealers have much responsibility. Without Saturday night specials whatever would an honest crook do?! Who makes cheap guns? Who distributes them? Smash the roots of criminality and you solve half the problem.
 
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As usual, I'm probably way off base here, but I feel this is worth mentioning so here it goes....

OK... It still does not help matters that for a lot of these people getting into trouble - pick your race - there's really nothing out there for them, unless they join the service, travel to places like Afghanistan and if they are lucky come home in one piece, to a life that they left behind.

Where I am going with this is if there is no hope to improve matters, one is going to do what they have to do to survive - if it means robbing someone, dealing drugs, doing drugs to ease the pain of being in a total fucked situation - whatever.... they're gonna do it out of desperation.

The stupid ones to me are the one's doing any of the above so they can perhaps identify with a way of life they want to be a part of since they are too stupid to figure out thing's for themselves.

Where I live - I can go out anytime day or night and see people hopelessly wandering about, looking to score, turn a trick, take some one out - you name it - not because they want to - but because for them there is no other option.

It's bad where I live.
It fucking sucks.

Over population and closing down of manufacturing industries has completely ensured that nobody from a disadvantaged standpoint is ever going to get ahead, while years ago - 30, 40, 50 years ago - the streets were paved with gold because there were jobs everywhere for anyone who seeked employment and when I say anyone, I mean anyone.

Yeah, race does come into play - totally - only a fool would deny that, on the other hand I have seen more African Americans who are truly interested in bettering them selves than whitey, because whitey has become lazy and believes the world owes him.
On the other hand, the Black Man totally has the deck stacked against him, while whitey simply coasts on by unscathed.....
The Black Man has to work 10x... 100x harder to prove his worth, and that's where racism is still sadly very much alive - while a white piece of shit can be a piece of shit, and he'll be somewhat tollerated, because he is white.

I can only speak for where I live.
I cannot speak for where I am from, because that place no longer exists.

Out here, it's the whites who scare me - but it's the blacks constantly being arrested.
There totally is a double standard - and how can one expect the race that is being kept beaten down from not feeling angry or rage ???

I got a feeling the point I wanted to make got lost here somewhere as my brains are scrambled, but my intentions were not malice.

I truly believe that if mankind is to end violence, they need to end poverty first.
 

Mankini

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You're exactly right. The politicians need to be removed because all they ever talk about is the middle classes. Or if they mention the underclasses or welfare class, its to discuss criminality or welfare...not the plight of the poor directly. To mention the poor as a politician is career suicide.
 

Mankini

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There is also lingering Nat Turner type fear in us society. If underclasses recognized this, they could use it to advantage. Ole Nat was a sonofabitch but he had the right idea, sort of.
 

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