Its time for the END of capitalism! No poor, no rich, just sharing resources...

[Art101]

Any system can be found oppressive.Someone always wants to take from those that have.Its the nature of things.Can it be changed ,who knows.

 

[Preacher]

IMHO, a lot of what everyone has said are all valid points. But the system we currently have is top-heavy and has been written by the rich, for the rich. It is weighted for them. Hate to quote the Matrix, but "they are the gatekeepers. They are guarding all the doors, they are holding all the keys. Which means that sooner or later, someone is going to have to fight them." And they do it by proxy via the local police, the FBI, NSA, Homeland Security, and on and on and on. They have rigged the system so we cannot win. They have dangled the hope to Joe sixpack that he can be rich if he just works hard enough. Tries hard enough. And follows the rules. Their rules. But guess what? They DON'T WANT YOU AND I TO BE WHERE THEY ARE. They are the elite. If anybody could get there then it's not quite so elite anymore.

And they have the majority of the population so put to sleep that they gladly accept their freedoms chipped away in the name of freedom. What difference is it if you are enslaved by a terrorist or your government? Slavery is slavery. Freedom of expression is down to a specified box at some locations. You can't make a phone call anymore with any expectation of privacy. You can't fly with any expectation of bodily or property privacy. Hell, you can't even drive anymore with the way they are doing drivers license check points and immigration checkpoints 50miles inside the border. People have been arrested for saying the wrong thing on Facebook. Things that are stupid, yes, but are not illegal. And yet the sheeple continue to wave the flag and scream about how wonderful this country is.

Don't get me wrong. I cry for this country. I love this country. But this country is going to hell in a handbasket. As I said in another post, this is not the country that I grew up in, nor is it the country that I learned to love.

Ug, back to what to do. Not quite sure because as others have well pointed out you have the human factor and just a few selfish, greedy people ruin it for everyone. And they 'lure others to the dark side' with them. So many political systems have been tried that were 'for the people' that always ended up with an elite, pampered or ruling class and those at the bottom with bubkiss. I guess ours is just taking a lot longer than the others to fade away or (as I think it's going to end) in armed insurrection.

 

[drewski]

IMHO, a lot of what everyone has said are all valid points. But the system we currently have is top-heavy and has been written by the rich, for the rich. It is weighted for them. Hate to quote the Matrix, but "they are the gatekeepers. They are guarding all the doors, they are holding all the keys. Which means that sooner or later, someone is going to have to fight them." And they do it by proxy via the local police, the FBI, NSA, Homeland Security, and on and on and on. They have rigged the system so we cannot win. They have dangled the hope to Joe sixpack that he can be rich if he just works hard enough. Tries hard enough. And follows the rules. Their rules. But guess what? They DON'T WANT YOU AND I TO BE WHERE THEY ARE. They are the elite. If anybody could get there then it's not quite so elite anymore.

And they have the majority of the population so put to sleep that they gladly accept their freedoms chipped away in the name of freedom. What difference is it if you are enslaved by a terrorist or your government? Slavery is slavery. Freedom of expression is down to a specified box at some locations. You can't make a phone call anymore with any expectation of privacy. You can't fly with any expectation of bodily or property privacy. Hell, you can't even drive anymore with the way they are doing drivers license check points and immigration checkpoints 50miles inside the border. People have been arrested for saying the wrong thing on Facebook. Things that are stupid, yes, but are not illegal. And yet the sheeple continue to wave the flag and scream about how wonderful this country is.

Don't get me wrong. I cry for this country. I love this country. But this country is going to hell in a handbasket. As I said in another post, this is not the country that I grew up in, nor is it the country that I learned to love.

Ug, back to what to do. Not quite sure because as others have well pointed out you have the human factor and just a few selfish, greedy people ruin it for everyone. And they 'lure others to the dark side' with them. So many political systems have been tried that were 'for the people' that always ended up with an elite, pampered or ruling class and those at the bottom with bubkiss. I guess ours is just taking a lot longer than the others to fade away or (as I think it's going to end) in armed insurrection.

 

[Jaguwar]

Stewart, spoken like a true proletariat! Money isn't the problem, silly, that's just a system humans have come up with to assign a value to our goods and services. If we were paid in bread, some would still have more because either their service or, more importantly, their product is more highly valued.

I can think of other systems that need to go; capitalism is definitely not one of them.

 

[lone wolf]

...Money isn't the problem...

the real problem is how money is created.

 

[Jaguwar]

No, it's about entities that we have empowered to steal our money, and entrusted to use it "wisely".

 

[Matt Dawg]

No, it's about entities that we have empowered to steal our money, and entrusted to use it "wisely".

Of all the arguments I've read I agree with this the most.

 

[lone wolf]

No, it's about entities that we have empowered to steal our money, and entrusted to use it "wisely".

that is the problem everyone sees... dig deeper. "how is money created and who has that power"? they don't need to steal anything when they have an endless bank account and the power to charge interest on newly created money.

 

[Jaguwar]

Actually, I was being brief, because I don't really want to have a full conversation about this here.
When you say "they" you're talking about corporations. I'm not. You dig deeper and look higher.

 

[creature]

there *is* a way to change it, & peacefully, too..

 

[Odin]

there *is* a way to change it, & peacefully, too..

Now that is a conversation I look forward too...

 

[drewski]

there *is* a way to change it, & peacefully, too..

I disagree, but if you'd like to elaborate I'll hear you out.

 

[Odin]

Okay... One scenario... Technology will out pace (by many factors of speed... exponentially I believe is the term...) the control of the aristocracy and empower the proletariat.
Therefore creating a revolution in economic paradigm.

Look up Technocracy... Dyson sphere... and Kardeshev scale.

I would wager... that by the time you reach a type II or III civilization monetary systems become archaic and irrelevant.

 

[creature]

The issue is *how* our economy was created.. the advent of money was a transitional phenomena..

(BTW, check out this pretty interesting link.. it's sums up quite a bit of what i've often barked at folks about.. hunter gatherers work *much* less than developed cultures: Was the Agricultural Revolution a Massive Fraud?
http://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2015/03/the_agricultural_revolution_historys_biggest_fraud.html )

Given that humans are technical by nature.. 3 million fucking years of hominid tool use & development... it's a genetic impossibility that we can leave that aspect of our consciousnesses behind.. (although if i had to choose between this planet being healthy, with technical beings absent or this planet becoming the shithole we are driving it into, while they delve further & further for comfort & material positivism, i would choose the former, without any hesitation at all, if those were the only two possible options..) it is the advent of technical *industry* which established the overwhelming concentrations of wealth which are the basis of the cancer that humanity has become.

The question, for me then, is how do we use **technical industry** to change the economies which it is so clearly able to create?

The most fundamental technological industry, even before weapons and agriculture is transportation.
Humanity's second greatest tool, even before agriculture, is the domestication of animals.
First the dog, then agriculture. I may be wrong, but I believe dogs were used as beasts of burden before agriculture. There is possible proof in this when looking at Inuit dog sledding, so i will rest my point, there.

If you then look at the industrial revolution, the three main drivers of economic development were steam engines, steam ships and then automobiles.

I am not saying that description is at all complete, since it does not weigh slavery, agriculture, or military 'advances', but powered transport is the first fundamental non-manual labor multiplying technology which developed.
Levers, pulleys, edged tools, etc. are all *manual* tools. Even boats are externally powered when current or wind driven.

The way to change the economy is to change it the same way that railroad barons, shipping tycoons & henry ford changed it..

produce a superior & revolutionary form of transport, but instead of gearing the industry and the distribution of its profits to owner of the production facilities, gear that industry to redistribute the profits to the *producers* of the item..


it's not a pipe dream, either..

there is a way to do it.

 

[Odin]

Hell yea creature spot on... transportation. The ability to be mobile is one of the biggest if not largest factors in propelling development. (lol pun intended)

Agriculture and animal domestication takes you only so far. After that you need to be able to move to survive. Move to greener pastures... move your crops and stock. For trade and development...
So you need transportation... And that is an extraction of technocratic development. After all the freedom of unlimited mobility is only enabled through the development of tools... tools are technology.

(Small edit: even looking at civilizations of antiquity... the power held by kings and emperors was in effect the power of force through militarization. And militarization requires mobility. The tools and technology... (be it wagon or chariot or even the knowledge to pickle and preserve food) these tools allowed for mobility of force and the more force/military you can mobilize and effectively project the more likely your kingdom was on top... eh?) tl'rl mobility is transportation is technology... now give everyone that power?

So following the Kardeshev scale... if we are to develop our planets resources to they're fullest potential... (with the foresight to preserve the ecosystem) then we need efficient clean energy to develop transport globally... next... the solar system. Right.... so once again... our monkey brains need to develop efficient fast transport for space. Then we can utilize the resources of the solar system... solar, asteroid belt/hydrogen fuel mining, mineral, rare mineral... exct... )

THE KEY IS... we will not diminish or eliminate the monetary system... until we develop overabundance of basic necessities and opportunities for everyone through technology.

Now... that may be far far in the future. Even in a space faring race we may not reach that point.
In all practicality it all depends on the energy/technology availability to the demand and social structure of the population using it.

If the energy and technology are super abundant... and there is no reason to deny anyone then all shall prosper...

In that case... monetary systems will surly be obsolete.

And as in an episode of DR WHO that I watched today... only barter of ... "significantly sentimental" items may be in effect... lol

 

[creature]

mmm..

i agree.

but..

i am talking something that can be done today..

one of uncle johnny's little trade secrets that .. well..

unfortunately life is sometimes just a series of "fuck you, fuck you, fuck you..."

or "hey.. what you want & what you believe are not necessarily what are best for you or true"..

in which case i can only hope that i am truly being fucked over by the incomprehensible principles of existence for my own fucking good

rather than actually having failed..

so..


i want to get a boat

& Get The Fuck Out...


because if i can't do what i hoped i could do

then i don't have any hope hope trying to do it any longer..

& i just need to get as far away from this fucking civilization as i can, before it actually goes Entirely To Hell...

 

[creature]

btw, odin..

thanks for yer considerations of my rants..


i owes ya : )

 

[Odin]

Friend you don't owe me a thing.
As a matter of fact I'd like to buy you a beer. ::drinkingbuddy::
It's a pleasure to read and then respond.
I don't often post a comprehensive post nowadays. But often when we elaborate on a discussion I find memories of intellect I have shunted to a dormant part of me. A part thats not so intoxicated with self pity, hesitation, and confusion.
As far as something that can be done today.
I would not completely despair. From the perspective of advancements in technology uplifting the human race... well exponential development if ignited I would suppose would come to fruition in our life times. After all if an AI for example that would improve all life on this planet were to come into existence its development would be insanely rapid to say the least. If you double something in every iteration... then you soon approach something perhaps that if is not... then feels like infinity.

also from wiki:

According to an old legend, vizier Sissa Ben Dahir presented an Indian King Sharim with a beautiful, hand-made chessboard. The king asked what he would like in return for his gift and the courtier surprised the king by asking for one grain of rice on the first square, two grains on the second, four grains on the third etc. The king readily agreed and asked for the rice to be brought. All went well at first, but the requirement for 2 n − 1 grains on the nth square demanded over a million grains on the 21st square, more than a million million (aka trillion) on the 41st and there simply was not enough rice in the whole world for the final squares. (From Swirski, 2006)

Now this advancement also must be presumed to be benificial to the human race... otherwise... meh...

BUT even if we can't change the world in one lifetime...

We can still get on that boat... and we can still search for a place to belong... with people and community that keep the dream alive.

Thats why. STP... It's a Mobile Island. In a chaotic sea.::cigar::

 

[drewski]

There are so many special interests shared between all sorts of powerful entities in this world. People that have the power and money to get anything done by the snap of their finger. They have a massive global surveillance system in their pocket and they can use it to eliminate anyone who is serious about taking power or money from under them (NSA, CIA, INTERPOL, etc). The connecting web of political influence and the tactics used to pull these strings is beyond comprehension. To think that we would be able to peacefully overthrow the world, let alone just this country alone is ridiculous. It would take an extremely large amount of ex-special forces operatives to train and equip groups of people who were willing to go underground and basically assasinate those who have the power.

And even if that was accomplished, you have millions of other people around the world who would love nothing more for our military industrial complex to implode so they can nuke the fuck out of us and destroy the very country that has wreaked havoc all over the world for decades. Only after us as a species destroys ourselves will this world be at peace. Until then, we have the choice to live it out as peaceful as possible within ourselves and with others and just try to create the kind of life we want, but I certainly don't expect 100% peace because that's just not the reality we live in.

 

[creature]

well.. of course, if you say you cannot, then you cannot..

but..look at b.gates, musk, jobs, not to mention some much younger super wealthy...

those fortunes were started in *garages*.. so.. albeit 20 & 30 years ago, has the system really changed *that* much, that your basic, motivated, garage floor tinkerer *cannot*..
i would disagree..
what they got a hold of did not happen by magic..
much happened by theft & unfairness, BUT... they *did not* have it *given* to them..

as corrupt or foolish as they are, they did *not* say "cannot".

there are uber-wealthy in the makings, right now, who *do not* and *did not* have it given to them.

the only good thing about those fuckers is that they are all paranoid of *each other*...

& frankly?

i don't give a fuck what they think.

you can damn well bet that if there is an uprising, they will kill to put it down..

but..

stopping a good idea is a whole 'nother thing..

i dun mean to be a prick, but just being pissed off does nothing.

if you call the idea ridiculous, you've already given up..

& if you haven't given up, then just make sure you own up to why you aren't participating in what may be the only other viable alternative for securing freedom among those who are the stumps & bloody grist of this fucking machinery that the hell-whores all bless in the name of God..

you & i both know what i mean.

& so i would rather flee or try & do something constructive, because when the time comes that people who do not know how to feed themselves are no longer fed *by the very state they curse*, they had better know how to make the state do what they want...

fuck zombie wars..

when the cities go, my friend, the first thing on the menu are other people & the corpses of those whom have died from thirst.

so you had better *hope* somebody at least *tries* their ridiculous fucking ideas, unless you have something better than hand wringing..