Has any one noticed the great(er) depression affecting
- Thread starter hassysmacker
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stove
Well-known member
Not to harp on you, but there's a thread about this back somewhere...Probably got burried, but just a warning.
That said, I've already seen a ton of news about tent cities etc popping up all over the country. This SHOULD help to teach people a lot more about living on their own and not relying on industry/government assistance to get them out of their problems. I know of a lot of community gardening and recyling projects which are popping up, not as a desire to help the environment, but to help themselves. I think it's pretty rad.
My gut tells me that this "depression" or whatever you want to call it will simultaneously help bridge the economic divide, and create an even greater rift; those whom want to keep what they have, and therefore will have no reservations about screwing over everyone else (sadly, a lot of the folks I've met in my travels) will see this type of travel/life as irresponsible and riddiculous. Those whom have not tasted the upper eschelons of society do not really know what they are missing, and seeing no significant chance for that bright and brilliant future, may take to the roads.
Either way, it's bound to be damn interesting, and I think that those whom have lived on the road/rail will have an edge on those newly aquainted with a transient/nomadic lifestyle.
Again, just my own opinion. Fire away!
That said, I've already seen a ton of news about tent cities etc popping up all over the country. This SHOULD help to teach people a lot more about living on their own and not relying on industry/government assistance to get them out of their problems. I know of a lot of community gardening and recyling projects which are popping up, not as a desire to help the environment, but to help themselves. I think it's pretty rad.
My gut tells me that this "depression" or whatever you want to call it will simultaneously help bridge the economic divide, and create an even greater rift; those whom want to keep what they have, and therefore will have no reservations about screwing over everyone else (sadly, a lot of the folks I've met in my travels) will see this type of travel/life as irresponsible and riddiculous. Those whom have not tasted the upper eschelons of society do not really know what they are missing, and seeing no significant chance for that bright and brilliant future, may take to the roads.
Either way, it's bound to be damn interesting, and I think that those whom have lived on the road/rail will have an edge on those newly aquainted with a transient/nomadic lifestyle.
Again, just my own opinion. Fire away!
hassysmacker
Well-known member
word. yeah i wouldnt have posted this had i known something like this existed, but i didnt know what to search for? depression? recession? economy? shit has hit the fan and we're traveling?
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Right now I think people seem like they are almost a little more receptive to people that are struggling to get by. They hear on the news daily about all the job losses, families being evicted from their homes, etc. But I don't think that the shit has really hit the fan yet so to speak. If history teaches us anything it's that those that still have anything will become desperate to hold onto it and become more and more repressive to those who don't, that greater rift that Stove mentioned in his post.
I don't think we're gonna see any epic Exodus. The system has thrown a couple of sheep to the wolves (note: Madoff, et al.). Also, you're seeing a few token bones thrown out to the masses such as refi on mortgages, your food stamps just went up $25 or so, DEFSEC Gates just trimmed the DoD budget, etc. Oh, you're gonna have a few folks (a few hundred thousand or so) in the shit, but the reality is that most of these people are from a microwave society, so to speak, and a) don't know shit about anything outside of a dual political party system; b) don't know how to organize and if they do would probably lean towards the independent or libertarian party; and c) have little interest in major change which might affect their unemployment check.
You'll always have fluidity in spanging/sign running. It's not determined, necessarily, by the state of the Nation. What I mean is this: fuck what your sign says or your line you use, what determines the amount and whether or not it's given is guilt. You are simply providing the proverbial pennance for someone who neglected to abide by the parson's recommendations and thus feels guilty. Trust me, as a Jew, I am well versed. No, the folks who are gonna see a DRAMATIC shortage of funds are actually those who need them: elderly for lights, LEGETIMATE folks who need rent paid, etc. This, as the governments (local, state and federal) are trimming the MOST important programs! And before anyone goes off and says (like I really care) that, "Hey, we deserve the money, too," I'm not saying riders don't. Merely an assertion that we receive money, primarily, from private beneficiaries and others haven't learned how to ply their wares.
What DOES concern me, though, is the fact that history repeats itself. History has taught governments that wars both recapitalize and strengthen economies. We haven't had a real hellbringer since WWII. So, here's my Johnny Carson prediction: A draft within the next 36-48 months due to the fact that some new 'boogeyman' other than terrorism and/or the economy is lurking out there.
You'll always have fluidity in spanging/sign running. It's not determined, necessarily, by the state of the Nation. What I mean is this: fuck what your sign says or your line you use, what determines the amount and whether or not it's given is guilt. You are simply providing the proverbial pennance for someone who neglected to abide by the parson's recommendations and thus feels guilty. Trust me, as a Jew, I am well versed. No, the folks who are gonna see a DRAMATIC shortage of funds are actually those who need them: elderly for lights, LEGETIMATE folks who need rent paid, etc. This, as the governments (local, state and federal) are trimming the MOST important programs! And before anyone goes off and says (like I really care) that, "Hey, we deserve the money, too," I'm not saying riders don't. Merely an assertion that we receive money, primarily, from private beneficiaries and others haven't learned how to ply their wares.
What DOES concern me, though, is the fact that history repeats itself. History has taught governments that wars both recapitalize and strengthen economies. We haven't had a real hellbringer since WWII. So, here's my Johnny Carson prediction: A draft within the next 36-48 months due to the fact that some new 'boogeyman' other than terrorism and/or the economy is lurking out there.
This is some of what I was getting at in my previous post. I think because people have been seeing in the news that lots of folks are suffering from the economy they have felt guilty and been a little more generous with the money that they give those standing out flying a sign or spanging but their not giving to folks that really need it the most. Let's face it, most of us even if we didn't have a nickle to our name could manage not to starve to death just because we know how to find the resources we need. We know where all the good dumpsters are and what resources are available. What seems like common sense knowledge to us, isn't to many folks that have lived within the system their entire lives and depend on it for their very lives.
veggieguy12
The Captain
IBRRHOBO said:
I dunno about the draft, and while your preceding point is spot-on, it's been said before (which is complimentary, as Orwell was brilliant - and the point is not far from that infamous Goering quote, eh?). But the first point of yours which I've quote above is an excellent one I haven't thought of or come across elsewhere.
Y'know, all this bailout stuff is merely to save capitalism - an economics which requires a lower class (it is, after all, the way the ruling class is differentiated and made to feel superior). So the lower class can't be completely saved from poverty.
And yet, left to flounder, told to eat "cake" while the rich enjoy extravagance, the poor will revolt. So the poor can't be totally shat-upon; a few will be sacrificed and the majority will be sustained to keep them passive and toiling.
This is where the commies or socialists or even the IWW ought to come in full-force for recruiting membership and raising class-consciousness.
God knows if they don't, the fascists will, with all their nationalism and scapegoating on every minority but capitalists.
Not that I think these alternatives to capitalism will save us from feeling tremendous lifestyle shock in the absence of cheap oil (closer every day), or the impending ecological collapse...
It's always good to engage w/you vg12!! Why? Because some good dialogue transpires as opposed to lock step party line drivel! Anywayz, it's early in the am out here and I felt a bit wordy.....
As to the draft, I agree that it appears unlikely right now. What I base it upon is this: we have a geopolitical quagmire in that we are fighting a multifront conflict in the middle east, still sustaining multiple UN/NATO conflicts Pan European in nature and a bilateral threat couched, comfortably I might add, with North Korea and Russia. So, let's look @ the world a moment: China butresses North Korea (that's why they can do as they wish with impunity), China controls the lower level finished product industry in the US, China loans the money which services interest on our debt (when taken in a GDP vs. deficit ratio; might also look @ the M3 Fed rate here). China has pioneered a deep water navy, threatened Taiwan and used North Korea to launch a patently absurd hoax of an ICBM delivery vehicle. Now, couple this with recent Russian insertion of forces into Georgia to control oil and natural gas which transports to Europe and you begin to centralize on the precarious position we are in. You see, through accords and treaties, we are bound to defend those whom we are allies with. Let's not bullshit around here: we landed US military forces in Georgia a handfull of months ago. Whether we want to pontify that it is aggression or what-the-fuck ever, these are the facts.
So, what does this mean in terms of the draft? Well, there's only so many service-aged men (women are exempt from the draft) whom have voluntarily enlisted. We need men to fight and die (in this case to secure strategic energy lines). We are not going to extricate ourselves from Iraq and Afganistan permanently EVER. We fought WWII and are still in Germany, France, Japan, et al. We now have unconventional wars raging globaly. The National Guard, which albeit illegally backdoored the draft for the past 12 years, is now decimated. Add the fact that poor [insert here black, white, mexican or whatever PC flavor you want] Johnny isn't enticed by the $16,000 dollar sign up bonus anymore and you have a matter of national security. Take a quick skim thru 50 United States Code for a primer. Gotta have bodies to catch the lead regardless of what the prez says.
I want to make sure everyone understands that I do not support a draft to fight foreign incurrsions, only those domestic; however, being a realist and having an intelligence background, the sounds of the mythical sirens upon the sea are being woven upon the fabric of mainstream media and my ears hear what, to the untrained ear, sounds like a deafening roar!
Political parties: The communists I'd be opposed to as Lenin, Stalin, et al., never perfected communism, and Putin doesn't seem to entranced by Das Kapital. The IWW, lo how I love my bummery, isn't viable. Suprisingly, though, I am rather enamoured by socialism. Probably the most viable option in these times.
As to the draft, I agree that it appears unlikely right now. What I base it upon is this: we have a geopolitical quagmire in that we are fighting a multifront conflict in the middle east, still sustaining multiple UN/NATO conflicts Pan European in nature and a bilateral threat couched, comfortably I might add, with North Korea and Russia. So, let's look @ the world a moment: China butresses North Korea (that's why they can do as they wish with impunity), China controls the lower level finished product industry in the US, China loans the money which services interest on our debt (when taken in a GDP vs. deficit ratio; might also look @ the M3 Fed rate here). China has pioneered a deep water navy, threatened Taiwan and used North Korea to launch a patently absurd hoax of an ICBM delivery vehicle. Now, couple this with recent Russian insertion of forces into Georgia to control oil and natural gas which transports to Europe and you begin to centralize on the precarious position we are in. You see, through accords and treaties, we are bound to defend those whom we are allies with. Let's not bullshit around here: we landed US military forces in Georgia a handfull of months ago. Whether we want to pontify that it is aggression or what-the-fuck ever, these are the facts.
So, what does this mean in terms of the draft? Well, there's only so many service-aged men (women are exempt from the draft) whom have voluntarily enlisted. We need men to fight and die (in this case to secure strategic energy lines). We are not going to extricate ourselves from Iraq and Afganistan permanently EVER. We fought WWII and are still in Germany, France, Japan, et al. We now have unconventional wars raging globaly. The National Guard, which albeit illegally backdoored the draft for the past 12 years, is now decimated. Add the fact that poor [insert here black, white, mexican or whatever PC flavor you want] Johnny isn't enticed by the $16,000 dollar sign up bonus anymore and you have a matter of national security. Take a quick skim thru 50 United States Code for a primer. Gotta have bodies to catch the lead regardless of what the prez says.
I want to make sure everyone understands that I do not support a draft to fight foreign incurrsions, only those domestic; however, being a realist and having an intelligence background, the sounds of the mythical sirens upon the sea are being woven upon the fabric of mainstream media and my ears hear what, to the untrained ear, sounds like a deafening roar!
Political parties: The communists I'd be opposed to as Lenin, Stalin, et al., never perfected communism, and Putin doesn't seem to entranced by Das Kapital. The IWW, lo how I love my bummery, isn't viable. Suprisingly, though, I am rather enamoured by socialism. Probably the most viable option in these times.
hassysmacker
Well-known member
IBBR: its surprising how many people don't realize this, but the "communists" of the USSR weren't fucking communists, they were "State Socialists" and I'm wary to even say that as it wound up most accurately being "Capitalism: As dictated by the State"
I don't trust any revolutionary vanguard to lead "us" to the revolutionary greener grass of the other side by "temporarily" seizing complete authoritarian power and instituting a Dictatorship of the Proletariat, which winds up being just another variant of Dictatorship over the Proletariat.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
I don't trust any revolutionary vanguard to lead "us" to the revolutionary greener grass of the other side by "temporarily" seizing complete authoritarian power and instituting a Dictatorship of the Proletariat, which winds up being just another variant of Dictatorship over the Proletariat.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Hmnn, a nerve I hit? I do note, though, the capitalization in lock step verbage. 'Bout all I really need to read. Amazing! A simple dialogue about economics started by you and then two others speak on and the Great Offense taken by the Chairman there.
To presuppose what one knows and does not know ranks up there with religion. Such dogma always left a rather foul taste in my mouth. However, since you seem to not be content to speak on spanging please inform the "us" which lock step you would have us march to.
Yes, capitalism, the eternal evil. Didn't see the internet under capitalism did we? Ah, what of free speech? How far you think StP would fly in one of these backwater dictatorships? I know, I know, scratch the talc and you find authoritarian power everywhere. So what would you have us do, 'eh? Ready to lead the way with that Black Flag and conqueor the world are we? Pretty easy putting the philosophies into quotes ... which you seem to have down pat ... but where would we be without some type of organization or leadership?
You see, the nice animal which brings a smile to your face in your avatar? Without organization and structure neither would be there. So, before you go off and want to give me a political discourse with insinuations that I'm some kind of and to quote you on one word "fucking" idiot, READ what I say. VG12 and I were debating the merits of three distinct political entities within the US. Now I know the English language is a difficult, but it looked pretty clear to me, "...never perfected communism... ."
In conclusion and I do mean this with disdain, if you want to speak in generalizations, fine, but when you want to select someone by name and someone who was both in combat and riding trains while you were still trying to figure out what to bring to show and tell, probably select someone else besides me.
To presuppose what one knows and does not know ranks up there with religion. Such dogma always left a rather foul taste in my mouth. However, since you seem to not be content to speak on spanging please inform the "us" which lock step you would have us march to.
Yes, capitalism, the eternal evil. Didn't see the internet under capitalism did we? Ah, what of free speech? How far you think StP would fly in one of these backwater dictatorships? I know, I know, scratch the talc and you find authoritarian power everywhere. So what would you have us do, 'eh? Ready to lead the way with that Black Flag and conqueor the world are we? Pretty easy putting the philosophies into quotes ... which you seem to have down pat ... but where would we be without some type of organization or leadership?
You see, the nice animal which brings a smile to your face in your avatar? Without organization and structure neither would be there. So, before you go off and want to give me a political discourse with insinuations that I'm some kind of and to quote you on one word "fucking" idiot, READ what I say. VG12 and I were debating the merits of three distinct political entities within the US. Now I know the English language is a difficult, but it looked pretty clear to me, "...never perfected communism... ."
In conclusion and I do mean this with disdain, if you want to speak in generalizations, fine, but when you want to select someone by name and someone who was both in combat and riding trains while you were still trying to figure out what to bring to show and tell, probably select someone else besides me.
hassysmacker
Well-known member
wow. i really meant no personal attack, so please don't take it that way.
really i was just elaborating on how those people (lenin, stalin, trotsky, etc) did not manage to perfect communism, as in my opinion, true non authoritarian communism is not something that could be ushered in by an authoritarian "dictatorship of the proletariat", a revolutionary vangaurd of authoritarism with the supposed goal delivering eventual communist society to the masses.
and i want to make it very clear, i did not mean to insinuate you, or anyone herem is a fucking idiot through my use of using the adjective "fucking"?
and i wasnt trying to single you out or anything, i simply replied to you, as, as i read via the thread, you were the one to bring up communism. so being as you were the one to talk about that, i made my reply to you.
and the ageist attacks on me were completely unnecessary. i never attacked you.
really i was just elaborating on how those people (lenin, stalin, trotsky, etc) did not manage to perfect communism, as in my opinion, true non authoritarian communism is not something that could be ushered in by an authoritarian "dictatorship of the proletariat", a revolutionary vangaurd of authoritarism with the supposed goal delivering eventual communist society to the masses.
and i want to make it very clear, i did not mean to insinuate you, or anyone herem is a fucking idiot through my use of using the adjective "fucking"?
and i wasnt trying to single you out or anything, i simply replied to you, as, as i read via the thread, you were the one to bring up communism. so being as you were the one to talk about that, i made my reply to you.
and the ageist attacks on me were completely unnecessary. i never attacked you.
hassysmacker
Well-known member
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