Ted Kaczynski was right….

Big George W

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Man, I have not been on STP for almost a year, as I found it necessary to take a sabbatical, however earlier today I clicked on the wrong button, I meant to go to the Stick Forum [as in Chapman..] and accidently got STP, so I looked, first just to see what was up, then with an inkling that it might not be a bad idea to come back here, then after discovering this thread and some of the comments finding it quite necessary to come back here, so here I am !!
I will re-read this entire thread later as I just spent some time making changed to my STP profile as much has changed, thankfully for the better but for now I am going outside to play with my aging dog, as it is another beautiful day here in New England.
Will be back soon !! [and look forwards to getting in on this conversation]
 

Big George W

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ok.... I've spent some time digesting all the comments here, and while I did not get a chance yet to fully read the articles the OP presented us with initially, from the comments I am reading here I am getting the general idea, plus... I still kinda remember what Ted was doing in real time, as opposed to learning about it after the fact.
The whole thing about technology can and will always be debated, personally I liked life they way it was in the early 1980s, but at the same time today I can appreciate many of the advances made, even if it holds one hostage to technology.... because there is some benefit to it, this forum for example.
I recently finished watching one of the most difficult documentaries I have ever seen, the complete DVD set of Jacob Bronoski's The Ascent Of Man, and there is one part in episode 11 where he really goes into how it was not the gas but man, man driven by arrogance and ignorance, and a desire to be like God that caused the deaths at the Auschwitz concentration camp, that really forced me to reflect upon that statement for quite sometime, and it is something I am still having difficulty in fully processing, but at the same time I can wholeheartedly agree.
It's interesting how Ted's cabin - not sure if it is a recreation or if it's the real deal - is a part of the Smithsonian Institution if I recollect correctly, so he must have counted for something to be bestowed that honor.
Was Ted indeed right ??
Much of what Ted stood for I can get on board with, but I draw the line at violence, because violence is never the right answer.
I'm gonna save those links to the articles, and when I get a chance, I'll print them out and read them, as I'm old fashioned that way,
I still prefer physical media, such as books over reading things of a computer.
Real good post, and exceptional comments by all !!
I'm glad I accidently came back to STP, funny how a wrong click has brought me back....
Looking forwards to see where this thread heads next.
 

Coywolf

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WildVirtue

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Two essays that are worth a read:

Medieval smokestacks: fossil fuels in pre-industrial times

The Romans - who fuelled practically all their mechanical activities with slave labour - deforested large parts of Europe in their hunger for thermal energy and construction materials.

A Quick and Dirty Critique of Primitivist & Anti-Civ Thought

The fall of some empires will mean the likely rise of other empires, with different characteristics perhaps, but similar power relations. While some aspects of our world are incredibly fragile, there is presently enough redundancy for the same systems to start up again and be much worse, provided any room for humanity on the planet remains. Brazil for instance is almost entirely run on hydroelectric power. While information technologies and many other liberatory technologies would go away large industrial societies are not going to disappear. A limited number of people hiding the cracks between various Roman Empires is hardly all that enticing of an anarchist vision.
 
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Personally, I don't see him as a hero, more as a spirit animal. He is quite a gifted writer and mathematician.

"Ship of Fools" is my favorite work of his. It is more relevant today than when it was written:

Ship of Fools - https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ted-kaczynski-ship-of-fools

It has been well documented that Kazaankski was a victim of the CIA NSA MK Ultra mind and drug experiments of the 1960s and 1970s while at MIT. Being a MIT Mathmatics Prof makes him a National defense asset that has to be secured to keep from falling in the wrong hands.
 
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williethekid

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i agree 100%

technology good because i dont want to die from polio.

capitalism bad because they patented the vaccine for polio.

And indiscriminate mail bombing are, i wanna say, not great.

The vaccine for polio wasn't patented. Jonas Salk, the inventor of the polio vaccine, got a lot of notoriety for doing so. When he was interviewed in 1955 by Edward Murrow about his breakthrough invention and asked who owns the patent to it, he replied, "There is no patent. Could you patent the sun?"
 

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Kaczynski is fun to read but he didn't really have anything new to say. He was mostly wrong and everything he was right about was better articulated by Ellul or Zerzan or Perlman. Filler Distro put it better than I ever could by calling him "Anarchy's weird racist uncle." That being said, he really was the first modern American anarcho-terrorist, and he spent 20 years just kind of existing before the feds ever figured out who he was. There are definitely things to be learned from the Unabomber, but most of his writing was kind of garbage and most people who idolize him are sketchy as hell.
 

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What gets me is that he settles deep in the woods getting away from people, the same motivation others building houses in the woods have. He had some blindspots that he couldn't quite seem to see, but perhaps he did. Instead of trying to promote his ideas in a peaceful manner, he did it through infamy by attacking random innocent people. He had some good points to his ideas. You can't have infinite growth. The more we overexploit our resources, the closer to collapse we get. Now, it's more than likely too late to prevent the coming collapse.
 

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Being completely anti-technology sounds good on paper, but there are too many folks dependent on tech for survival. Sorry, we're not making pace makers any more, you'll just have to take one for the team. Those meds you need to control your schizophrenia and make the angry voices go away? Nah, you'll just be terrified until you commit a heinous act against yourself or someone else. Where's the line? Are glasses technology? Strict techno-primitivists are plain old ableist.

On the subject of Ted K. specifically, I think the fact that he was a victim of the CIA leaves us in the unfortunate position of not knowing whether his position was his, or something he was brainwashed into during the experiment. It's possible that the American government was playing the long game in order to enable the surveillance state as it now exists. (Hi Chuck! How's the wife and kids?) [Chuck's my personal NSA agent. Be nice to him, he has to read all my crazy emails and the smutty stories I write for my nutty friends.]
 
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ted.jpg

Recently found all over my neighbourhood. It's a step up from Jesus Is Coming - We're All Going Home Friends.
 
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AbuQittun

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I'm not eve against the anti-technology critique. At the very least we're too dependant on it. It is true that it is an instrument of control, and inherently so. Humans evolved to try to control their environment to varying degrees for survival. In smaller numbers, this had very little impact on the global environment. On a global scale, we've become like a cancer. Hopefully we can switch things over to something sustainable. There is no feasible way to indefinitely sustain our industrial civilization without heavy-handed government control. My inner anarchist hates this idea.
 

marymemarryme

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Being completely anti-technology sounds good on paper, but there are too many folks dependent on tech for survival. Sorry, we're not making pace makers any more, you'll just have to take one for the team. Those meds you need to control your schizophrenia and make the angry voices go away? Nah, you'll just be terrified until you commit a heinous act against yourself or someone else. Where's the line? Are glasses technology? Strict techno-primitivists are plain old ableist.

On the subject of Ted K. specifically, I think the fact that he was a victim of the CIA leaves us in the unfortunate position of not knowing whether his position was his, or something he was brainwashed into during the experiment. It's possible that the American government was playing the long game in order to enable the surveillance state as it now exists. (Hi Chuck! How's the wife and kids?) [Chuck's my personal NSA agent. Be nice to him, he has to read all my crazy emails and the smutty stories I write for my nutty friends.]

Not to be contrarian, but schizos, mentally ill, disabled, neurodivergent, etc. people have existed and lived happily before the 19th and 20th centuries. Why erase them? Why think that primitivism is uninclusive? Disabled people have always existed. What do you think they did for thousands of years? Obviously, you can point out some societies and instances where the differently abled were murdered or "purged" - think Spartan society - but thats not what most primitivists stand for.

It's capitalism that makes it difficult for disabled/etc people to exist. If you look at how societies took care of disabled/etc people before it, before modern technology, you'd see a very interesting picture. Part of my undergrad thesis was on the mentally disabled and physically paralyzed of the 18th and 19th centuries in the US (before/at the advent of Industrialism.) It was not such a black and white picture as people would paint it. It's an interesting look at how some form of primitivism could work.

I'm not personally a huge primitivist, but discounting it as ableist and using people like schizophrenics as an out is not something I can agree with. Schizo's in particular don't need to be anyone's "out" for anything anymore. (And I don't think there are primitivists who count glasses as technology.)
 
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DreadForest

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Not to be contrarian, but schizos, mentally ill, disabled, neurodivergent, etc. people have existed and lived happily before the 19th and 20th centuries. Why erase them? Why think that primitivism is uninclusive? Disabled people have always existed. What do you think they did for thousands of years? Obviously, you can point out some societies and instances where the differently abled were murdered or "purged" - think Spartan society - but thats not what most primitivists stand for.

It's capitalism that makes it difficult for disabled/etc people to exist. If you look at how societies took care of disabled/etc people before it, before modern technology, you'd see a very interesting picture. Part of my undergrad thesis was on the mentally disabled and physically paralyzed of the 18th and 19th centuries in the US (before/at the advent of Industrialism.) It was not such a black and white picture as people would paint it. It's an interesting look at how some form of primitivism could work.

I'm not personally a huge primitivist, but discounting it as ableist and using people like schizophrenics as an out is not something I can agree with. Schizo's in particular don't need to be anyone's "out" for anything anymore. (And I don't think there are primitivists who count glasses as technology.)

I was thinking specifically of a dear friend of mine who sees demons when he's not medicated. Possibly a primitivist society might have given him a job as some sort of shaman, but his life without medication is a long slog of terror I wouldn't wish on anyone. He's not functional without medication nor does he want to live without it. Just because people might be willing to look after you doesn't make your life good or pleasant. (Also, he's 6'4" and gets violent when he has an episode. There aren't that many people who CAN physically look after him.) I suppose you could try the ancient Greek method of sedating him with Doric harmonies if you wanted to, but he'd probably break your nose in the first ten minutes. Not to mention that after the episode ended, you'll have to figure out a way to get him out of the suicidal ideation caused by hurting someone by accident. Or maybe a bloodletting? Trephination? Locking him in an attic somewhere? Anyone who thinks that schizophrenia can be treated by being nice to sufferers has never actually dealt with anyone who had it.

Primitivists are mostly a bunch of hypocrites. They draw the "no tech" line in a place that suits their comfort level. It takes no less than 4 specialized machines to make the glasses I'm currently wearing. Without the use of polycarbon, one of my lenses would be about a half inch thick (even with the thinnest material available it sticks out of the frame noticeably). That's not particularly practical or wearable. But yeah, that doesn't count as technology at all.
 

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Feel free to delete if this is still not allowed, but there is a website to help people research the utility of Ted's ideas, and to ideally help people positively re-evaluate anarchist philosophy, as there are still a lot of people who associate anarchism with Kaczynski, even though he later disavowed anarchism and acknowledged he didn't ever know much about it:

a-t-about-this-project-4.jpg


I think given the large number of people who were able to correctly predict many of the problems that would go along with tech evolution under capitalism means that Kaczynski's analysis isn't actually that unique or novel of an achievement to write home about.

Ted predicted in the manifesto that the worldwide technological system could collapse at as early a date as 2035, which he provided no good evidence for, then in a later letter claimed this was just a guess and that he wouldn't attempt to defend it.

He also briefly predicted the US wars in Vietnam and Iraq would have a net good impact on the world, which we can see how well those turned out.

The articles and books Ted bought into or misinterpreted is notable too.

He saved onto an article from Esquire called The Human Race Has, Maybe, Thirty-five Years Left which predicted that agricultural production couldn't keep increasing, so we'd have to be eating plankton or each other in 2022.

He was also briefly suckered in by some some scientific sounding evidence for a spoon bending magician's paranormal beliefs, and so briefly feared that "thirty years from now, we may have government-employed psychics wandering around checking up on our thoughts to make sure we aren't planning to do anything illegal."

Finally, Ted's manifesto is to a large extent a condensed American vernacular version of Ellul's The Technological Society which Ted zealously re-read and loved, but this book was meant to be read in tandem with Autopsy of Revolution which Ted really didn't like. He wrote to Ellul about the latter book in a way that I think showed he didn't fully understand how Ellul's arguments all tied together. As I think he simply read into the text what he wanted to be there and not what was actually written.

Quoting Ted:

In the section Aims of Revolution you say, "the issue is not technology per see, but the present structure of society." In the section Focus of Revolution, you say that the revolution must be "against the technological society not against technology)." Further on, you indicate that we must "master technology". This seems to suggest the notion that we can have an advanced technology and still avoid the bad aspects of the technological society. If this is what you meant, then the idea is probably incorrect, and very dangerous.
--Ted Kaczynski's Letter to Ellul

Also, quoting Sean Fleming, a political science research fellow:

I think what's interesting about the relationship between Kaczynski and Ellul is not just that Ellul influenced Kaczynski, but also that Ellul anticipated a lot of Kaczynski's arguments and tried to pre-empt them. He anticipated that someone much like Kaczynski would eventually come along and try to use his arguments to justify a violent revolution against technology. He tried to head that off in advance.
--Kaczynski, Ellul, and the Future of Anti-Tech Radicalism with Sean Fleming

So, I think Ellul is a great person to read for both a critique of technological overconsumption and an antidote to the rigid position of Kaczynski:

If we see technique as nothing but objects that can be useful (and we need to check whether they are indeed useful); and if we stop believing in technique for its own sake or that of society; and if we stop fearing technique, and treat it as one thing among many others, then we destroy the basis for the power technique has over humanity.
--Perspectives on Our Age by Jacques Ellul & Willem H. Vanderburg

Finally, I'd recommend David Charles's blog, which has some great ideas for how to practice living a low-impact lifestyle:
 
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WildVirtue

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Here's a niche side topic for this thread: I think Ted's dogmatic insistence that hunter-gatherer life is the ideal state of man, plus his sadness about hunting reflects an existential crisis many meat eaters grapple with.

Quoting from one of his journals:

Lately, to tell the truth, I’ve been getting a little sick of killing things. Neither the death struggles of the animal nor the blood bother me in the least; in fact, I rather enjoy the sight of blood; blood is appetizing because it makes rich soups. I enjoy the instant of the kill because it represents a success. But a moment afterward I often feel saddened that a thing so beautiful and full of life has suddenly been converted into just a piece of meat. Still, this is outweighed by the satisfaction of getting my food from the forest and mountain. Rabbits and grouse have beautiful eye; in both cases the whites don’t show and the iris’s are a lovely brown. And this grouse today I noticed that the pupil, black at first glance, is actually a deep blue, like clear, translucent blue glass.

Also, in a letter to his brother, Ted wrestled with the question of; 'is it a good thing that some people feel sad about the animals killed painfully by hunter-gatherers?'

For me, I think yes it is a good thing, I feel sad partly because I relate to hunter-gatherers as people who could be offered lessons in how to grow enough diversity of vegan food at their own desired level of technology such that they would not need to hunt. I also hope one day some people might be motivated to do that for them in a responsible way that only improves their quality of life.

I understand a meat eater might feel sad for many reasons also, even if for example it's just because we have higher level technology today such that we can potentially kill some animals faster today with less pain and less stress. But even though we have the means to blow up an animals head with exploding bullets without the animal ever seeing it coming doesn't mean we always use such methods, nor do I think it would justify cutting short the animal's interest to live.

I find some nihilists & primitivists like Ted's response to this question the most fascinating, they wish they could have been born into a world in which no one experienced sadness about killing animals, but this just feels like desiring a black and white world because it would help them make sense of their place in the universe.

Maybe they fear that if they said yes its good some people feel sad, that the only other track society would be left to go down is exterminating all carnivores and building robot carnivore imitations for entertainment.

However, I think there is a middle ground in simply relating to ourselves as an omnivore species who are intelligent enough to one day desire to build a global vegan social contract. Where among each other we decide that we generally wouldn't like to encourage in any of our fellow humans the act of breeding and killing other sentient animals. For reasons of; 'it has the strongly likely outcome of damaging to an unacceptable degree many people's ability to be compassionate with one another'. So, not an indictment on the subsistence hunter-gatherers and non-human animals who hunt to survive, but an aspirational future goal for humans.

Finally, here is the long meandering letter by Ted I mentioned for anyone curious:

I doubt that the pigmies have any guilt, conscious or otherwise, about killing animals. Guilt is a conflict between what we’re trained not to do and impulses that lead us to do it anyway. Apparently there is nothing in pygmy culture that leads them not to kill or inflict pain on animals. What the pygmies love and celebrate is their way of life, and they see no conflict between that and killing for meat; in fact, the hunting is an essential part of their way of life — they gotta eat. We tend to see a conflict there because we come from a world where there is a gross excess of people who even apart from hunting destroy the material world through their very presence in such numbers. But to the pygmies — until very recently anyway — there’s been no need for “conservation”. The forest is full of animals; with the pygmies primitive weapons and sparse population the question of exterminating the game never arises. The pygmies problem is to fill his belly. The civilized man can afford to feel sorry for wild animals because he can take his food for granted. Some psychologists claim that man is attracted to “death” as they call it. Certainly young men are attracted to action, violence, aggression, and that sort of thing. Note the amount of make-believe violence in the entertainment media — in spite of the fact that in our culture that sort of thing is considered bad and unwholesome and so forth. Since man has been a hunter for the last million years, it is possible that, like other predatory animals, he has some kind of a “killer instinct”. It would thus seem that the pygmies are just acting like perfectly good predatory animals. Why should they feel sorry for their prey any more than a hawk, a fox, or a leopard does? On the other hand, when a modern “sport” goes out with a high-powered rifle, you have a different situation. Some obvious differences are: much less skill is required with a rifle than with primitive weapons; the “sport” does it fun, not because he needs the meat; he is in a world where there are too many people and not enough wildlife, and a rifle makes it too easy to kill too many animals. Of course, the fish and game dept. will see to it that the animals don’t get exterminated, but this entails “wildlife management” — manipulation of nature which to me is even worse than extermination. Beyond that, while the pygmy lives in the wilderness and belongs to it, the “sport” is an alien intruder whose presence is a kind of desecration. In a sense, the sport hunter is a masturbator: His hunting is not the “real thing” — it’s not what hunting is for a primitive man — he is trying to satisfy an instinct in a debased and sordid way, just like when you rub your prick to crudely simulate what you really want, which is a love affair with a woman. Of course there’s nothing wrong with jagging off to relieve yourself when you get horny — it’s harmless. But — even apart from the question of depletion of wildlife — the presence of “sports” in the wilderness tends to spoil it for those who know better how to appreciate nature.

So, as I said, I see no reason why the pygmies should have any pity for the animals they kill — they gotta kill to eat anyway, so why make themselves uncomfortable by worrying about the animals pain? On the other hand, I did share your (and the author’s) adverse reaction to the account of the pygmies callousness toward animals. For one thing — much as I hate to admit it — my feelings probably have been influenced by the attitudes prevalent in our society; for another thing — and this too is probably in some way related to the social background — I am more ready to put myself in the position of, and see things from the point of view of, another being, such as an animal; finally — and this does not derive from the social background — I see wild animals as “good guys”, the ones who are on my side, in contrast to civilization and its forces (the bad guys), hence I tend to identify with the wild animals. Certainly I would be much less prone to have pity for a domestic animal than for a wild one. I kill rabbits and so forth because I need the meat, but (now more than formerly — youth tends to be callous) I always regret that something alive and beautiful has been turned into just a piece of meat. (Though when you’re hungry enough for meat, you don’t worry too much about that.)

If you wanted, you could perhaps justify the pygmies this way: The pygmy kills without compunction or pity in order to eat. The pygmy too has to die some day, but he isn’t afraid of that. Perhaps he’ll be killed some day by a leopard or a buffalo, but he doesn’t whine about it or ask the leopard or buffalo to have mercy on him. He is an animal like the others in the forest and he shares the hardships and dangers with the other animals. He lives in an amoral world. But it’s a free world and I would say a much wholesome and fulfilling world than that of modern civilization. I do share your negative emotional reaction to the pygmies’ ruthlessness, but I’m inclined to suspect that that reaction is perhaps a little decadent, and I don’t see that anything would be improved much by the pygmy’s vicariously sharing the sufferings of the animals he kills.

I mentioned the fact that the pygmies’ world is an amoral one and that such a world may be a wholesome world than the moral one of civilization. Note that amorality does not exclude generous behavior toward others: human beings have impulses of love and loyalty to one another and these are animal impulses, not products of morality. By morality I mean feelings of guilt and shame that we are trained to associate with certain actions that our instinctive impulses would otherwise lead us to perform. Of course it’s disagreeable to admit the extent to which we’ve been influenced by all that brainwashing--attitudes to which we are constantly exposed in school, in books, in the mass communicative media, etc. I hate to admit it, but — as I believe I mentioned to you once before — I would be incapable of premeditatedly committing a serious crime,{1} and the reason for this is simply that I am subject to the same trained-in inhibitions as most other people. I couldn’t commit a serious crime cause I’d be scared to — quite apart from the fear of getting caught. On an intellectual level I don’t believe in any moral code. To what extent is our aversion to the pygmies ruthlessness simply the result of our having been brainwashed? Now the point I want to make is this: One of the principile justifications — or rather rationalizations — given for moral training is that it promotes human welfare — we are better off if we don’t kill each other, steal from each other, etc. But what I would argue is that a strongly developed morality and system of inhibitions exacts a psychological price that is too much to pay for the added physical security. We would lead more fulfilling lives with less trained-in inhibitions even at the price of considerably less physical security. People who are habituated from childhood to a relatively unsafe mode of existence — such as primitive savages — don’t seem to mind it a bit. It doesn’t make them feel insecure. As for the price of inhibitions, I’ve read in more than one place that there is an inverse relation between murder and suicide statistics. Countries that have a high murder rate tend to have a low suicide rate and countries with a low murder rate tend to have a high suicide rate. This seems to suggest that people who are too inhibited about expressing aggression pay a high psychological price — for every one who commits suicide there are provably a great many who are miserable but never quite get to the point of stringing themselves up. Primitives are probably not wholly free of morality, but they are undoubtedly far less clamped down by moral inhibitions than we are. One thing I’ve noted in reading about very primitive people is that in many cases there seems to be a great deal of squabbling and quarrelling among them. This used to repel me, because like other people of our sort of background I’ve been trained to hold in the feelings that give rise to quarrelling. We have to be trained to do that because our machine-like society would function very poorly if workers got into a shouting match with the boss or their fellow-workers every time they got pissed off about something. Our society requires order above all else: But I don’t see why primitive societies should be regarded as worse than ours because of this quarelsomeness. Unquestionably the resentments and jealousness are present in our society — the only difference is that they are not usually expressed openly. They come out as snide remarks made behind someones back or in other pettiness, or (perhaps worse) they are just held in, where they fester. Probably the primitives do better to openly express their annoyances and resentments. Well, I could go on forever pursuing the ramifications of this — I could bring in personal loyalty among the Somalis, political corruption in Latin America ... but I guess I’ve rambled on long enough. Also, I did a sloppy job of expressing all this, but I don’t want to spend forever writing this letter, so fuck it.

{1} [Note from one of Ted’s coded journals: “I recently wrote in a letter to my brother that the inhibitions that have been trained into me are too strong to permit me ever to commit a serious crime. This may surprise the reader considering some things reported in these notes, but motive is clear. I want to avoid any possible suspicion on my brothers part.”]
 

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Ted was a product of MK-ULTRA was experimented on to become violent while at University. I think this was a long term plan to demoize the enviro movement, which it achieved it's objective. Yet, his arguments have come to be true.
 

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