Ted Kaczynski was right….

Big George W

Humanist
Joined
Oct 21, 2021
Messages
55
Reaction score
34
Location
East Derby, Connecticut
Website
mewe.com
Man, I have not been on STP for almost a year, as I found it necessary to take a sabbatical, however earlier today I clicked on the wrong button, I meant to go to the Stick Forum [as in Chapman..] and accidently got STP, so I looked, first just to see what was up, then with an inkling that it might not be a bad idea to come back here, then after discovering this thread and some of the comments finding it quite necessary to come back here, so here I am !!
I will re-read this entire thread later as I just spent some time making changed to my STP profile as much has changed, thankfully for the better but for now I am going outside to play with my aging dog, as it is another beautiful day here in New England.
Will be back soon !! [and look forwards to getting in on this conversation]
 

Big George W

Humanist
Joined
Oct 21, 2021
Messages
55
Reaction score
34
Location
East Derby, Connecticut
Website
mewe.com
ok.... I've spent some time digesting all the comments here, and while I did not get a chance yet to fully read the articles the OP presented us with initially, from the comments I am reading here I am getting the general idea, plus... I still kinda remember what Ted was doing in real time, as opposed to learning about it after the fact.
The whole thing about technology can and will always be debated, personally I liked life they way it was in the early 1980s, but at the same time today I can appreciate many of the advances made, even if it holds one hostage to technology.... because there is some benefit to it, this forum for example.
I recently finished watching one of the most difficult documentaries I have ever seen, the complete DVD set of Jacob Bronoski's The Ascent Of Man, and there is one part in episode 11 where he really goes into how it was not the gas but man, man driven by arrogance and ignorance, and a desire to be like God that caused the deaths at the Auschwitz concentration camp, that really forced me to reflect upon that statement for quite sometime, and it is something I am still having difficulty in fully processing, but at the same time I can wholeheartedly agree.
It's interesting how Ted's cabin - not sure if it is a recreation or if it's the real deal - is a part of the Smithsonian Institution if I recollect correctly, so he must have counted for something to be bestowed that honor.
Was Ted indeed right ??
Much of what Ted stood for I can get on board with, but I draw the line at violence, because violence is never the right answer.
I'm gonna save those links to the articles, and when I get a chance, I'll print them out and read them, as I'm old fashioned that way,
I still prefer physical media, such as books over reading things of a computer.
Real good post, and exceptional comments by all !!
I'm glad I accidently came back to STP, funny how a wrong click has brought me back....
Looking forwards to see where this thread heads next.
 

Coywolf

Make America Freight Again
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Dec 12, 2014
Messages
2,532
Reaction score
5,010
Location
Mormon Country
Website
www.youtube.com

WildVirtue

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 15, 2019
Messages
48
Reaction score
137
Location
North Wales
Website
activistjourneys.wordpress.com
Two essays that are worth a read:

Medieval smokestacks: fossil fuels in pre-industrial times

The Romans - who fuelled practically all their mechanical activities with slave labour - deforested large parts of Europe in their hunger for thermal energy and construction materials.

A Quick and Dirty Critique of Primitivist & Anti-Civ Thought

The fall of some empires will mean the likely rise of other empires, with different characteristics perhaps, but similar power relations. While some aspects of our world are incredibly fragile, there is presently enough redundancy for the same systems to start up again and be much worse, provided any room for humanity on the planet remains. Brazil for instance is almost entirely run on hydroelectric power. While information technologies and many other liberatory technologies would go away large industrial societies are not going to disappear. A limited number of people hiding the cracks between various Roman Empires is hardly all that enticing of an anarchist vision.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DreadForest

Millerreserve

Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2023
Messages
9
Reaction score
2
Location
Albany,New York
Personally, I don't see him as a hero, more as a spirit animal. He is quite a gifted writer and mathematician.

"Ship of Fools" is my favorite work of his. It is more relevant today than when it was written:

Ship of Fools - https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ted-kaczynski-ship-of-fools

It has been well documented that Kazaankski was a victim of the CIA NSA MK Ultra mind and drug experiments of the 1960s and 1970s while at MIT. Being a MIT Mathmatics Prof makes him a National defense asset that has to be secured to keep from falling in the wrong hands.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Toecutter

will eee um

Roads Scholar
Joined
May 31, 2022
Messages
41
Reaction score
115
Location
Los Angeles, California, USA
i agree 100%

technology good because i dont want to die from polio.

capitalism bad because they patented the vaccine for polio.

And indiscriminate mail bombing are, i wanna say, not great.

The vaccine for polio wasn't patented. Jonas Salk, the inventor of the polio vaccine, got a lot of notoriety for doing so. When he was interviewed in 1955 by Edward Murrow about his breakthrough invention and asked who owns the patent to it, he replied, "There is no patent. Could you patent the sun?"
 

unconvincing

New member
Joined
May 31, 2023
Messages
4
Reaction score
7
Location
Appalachia
Kaczynski is fun to read but he didn't really have anything new to say. He was mostly wrong and everything he was right about was better articulated by Ellul or Zerzan or Perlman. Filler Distro put it better than I ever could by calling him "Anarchy's weird racist uncle." That being said, he really was the first modern American anarcho-terrorist, and he spent 20 years just kind of existing before the feds ever figured out who he was. There are definitely things to be learned from the Unabomber, but most of his writing was kind of garbage and most people who idolize him are sketchy as hell.
 

AbuQittun

Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2022
Messages
8
Reaction score
9
Location
Estados Unidos de America
What gets me is that he settles deep in the woods getting away from people, the same motivation others building houses in the woods have. He had some blindspots that he couldn't quite seem to see, but perhaps he did. Instead of trying to promote his ideas in a peaceful manner, he did it through infamy by attacking random innocent people. He had some good points to his ideas. You can't have infinite growth. The more we overexploit our resources, the closer to collapse we get. Now, it's more than likely too late to prevent the coming collapse.
 

DreadForest

Active member
Joined
Dec 14, 2023
Messages
29
Reaction score
111
Location
Toronto
Being completely anti-technology sounds good on paper, but there are too many folks dependent on tech for survival. Sorry, we're not making pace makers any more, you'll just have to take one for the team. Those meds you need to control your schizophrenia and make the angry voices go away? Nah, you'll just be terrified until you commit a heinous act against yourself or someone else. Where's the line? Are glasses technology? Strict techno-primitivists are plain old ableist.

On the subject of Ted K. specifically, I think the fact that he was a victim of the CIA leaves us in the unfortunate position of not knowing whether his position was his, or something he was brainwashed into during the experiment. It's possible that the American government was playing the long game in order to enable the surveillance state as it now exists. (Hi Chuck! How's the wife and kids?) [Chuck's my personal NSA agent. Be nice to him, he has to read all my crazy emails and the smutty stories I write for my nutty friends.]
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Matt Derrick

DreadForest

Active member
Joined
Dec 14, 2023
Messages
29
Reaction score
111
Location
Toronto
ted.jpg

Recently found all over my neighbourhood. It's a step up from Jesus Is Coming - We're All Going Home Friends.
 
  • Love It
Reactions: marymemarryme

AbuQittun

Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2022
Messages
8
Reaction score
9
Location
Estados Unidos de America
I'm not eve against the anti-technology critique. At the very least we're too dependant on it. It is true that it is an instrument of control, and inherently so. Humans evolved to try to control their environment to varying degrees for survival. In smaller numbers, this had very little impact on the global environment. On a global scale, we've become like a cancer. Hopefully we can switch things over to something sustainable. There is no feasible way to indefinitely sustain our industrial civilization without heavy-handed government control. My inner anarchist hates this idea.
 

marymemarryme

the girl who plans too much and acts too little
Joined
Nov 19, 2022
Messages
16
Reaction score
98
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
Being completely anti-technology sounds good on paper, but there are too many folks dependent on tech for survival. Sorry, we're not making pace makers any more, you'll just have to take one for the team. Those meds you need to control your schizophrenia and make the angry voices go away? Nah, you'll just be terrified until you commit a heinous act against yourself or someone else. Where's the line? Are glasses technology? Strict techno-primitivists are plain old ableist.

On the subject of Ted K. specifically, I think the fact that he was a victim of the CIA leaves us in the unfortunate position of not knowing whether his position was his, or something he was brainwashed into during the experiment. It's possible that the American government was playing the long game in order to enable the surveillance state as it now exists. (Hi Chuck! How's the wife and kids?) [Chuck's my personal NSA agent. Be nice to him, he has to read all my crazy emails and the smutty stories I write for my nutty friends.]

Not to be contrarian, but schizos, mentally ill, disabled, neurodivergent, etc. people have existed and lived happily before the 19th and 20th centuries. Why erase them? Why think that primitivism is uninclusive? Disabled people have always existed. What do you think they did for thousands of years? Obviously, you can point out some societies and instances where the differently abled were murdered or "purged" - think Spartan society - but thats not what most primitivists stand for.

It's capitalism that makes it difficult for disabled/etc people to exist. If you look at how societies took care of disabled/etc people before it, before modern technology, you'd see a very interesting picture. Part of my undergrad thesis was on the mentally disabled and physically paralyzed of the 18th and 19th centuries in the US (before/at the advent of Industrialism.) It was not such a black and white picture as people would paint it. It's an interesting look at how some form of primitivism could work.

I'm not personally a huge primitivist, but discounting it as ableist and using people like schizophrenics as an out is not something I can agree with. Schizo's in particular don't need to be anyone's "out" for anything anymore. (And I don't think there are primitivists who count glasses as technology.)
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: Matt Derrick

DreadForest

Active member
Joined
Dec 14, 2023
Messages
29
Reaction score
111
Location
Toronto
Not to be contrarian, but schizos, mentally ill, disabled, neurodivergent, etc. people have existed and lived happily before the 19th and 20th centuries. Why erase them? Why think that primitivism is uninclusive? Disabled people have always existed. What do you think they did for thousands of years? Obviously, you can point out some societies and instances where the differently abled were murdered or "purged" - think Spartan society - but thats not what most primitivists stand for.

It's capitalism that makes it difficult for disabled/etc people to exist. If you look at how societies took care of disabled/etc people before it, before modern technology, you'd see a very interesting picture. Part of my undergrad thesis was on the mentally disabled and physically paralyzed of the 18th and 19th centuries in the US (before/at the advent of Industrialism.) It was not such a black and white picture as people would paint it. It's an interesting look at how some form of primitivism could work.

I'm not personally a huge primitivist, but discounting it as ableist and using people like schizophrenics as an out is not something I can agree with. Schizo's in particular don't need to be anyone's "out" for anything anymore. (And I don't think there are primitivists who count glasses as technology.)

I was thinking specifically of a dear friend of mine who sees demons when he's not medicated. Possibly a primitivist society might have given him a job as some sort of shaman, but his life without medication is a long slog of terror I wouldn't wish on anyone. He's not functional without medication nor does he want to live without it. Just because people might be willing to look after you doesn't make your life good or pleasant. (Also, he's 6'4" and gets violent when he has an episode. There aren't that many people who CAN physically look after him.) I suppose you could try the ancient Greek method of sedating him with Doric harmonies if you wanted to, but he'd probably break your nose in the first ten minutes. Not to mention that after the episode ended, you'll have to figure out a way to get him out of the suicidal ideation caused by hurting someone by accident. Or maybe a bloodletting? Trephination? Locking him in an attic somewhere? Anyone who thinks that schizophrenia can be treated by being nice to sufferers has never actually dealt with anyone who had it.

Primitivists are mostly a bunch of hypocrites. They draw the "no tech" line in a place that suits their comfort level. It takes no less than 4 specialized machines to make the glasses I'm currently wearing. Without the use of polycarbon, one of my lenses would be about a half inch thick (even with the thinnest material available it sticks out of the frame noticeably). That's not particularly practical or wearable. But yeah, that doesn't count as technology at all.
 

WildVirtue

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 15, 2019
Messages
48
Reaction score
137
Location
North Wales
Website
activistjourneys.wordpress.com
Feel free to delete if this is still not allowed, but there is a website to help people research the utility of Ted's ideas, and to ideally help people positively re-evaluate anarchist philosophy, as there are still a lot of people who associate anarchism with Kaczynski, even though he later disavowed anarchism and acknowledged he didn't ever know much about it:

a-t-about-this-project-4.jpg


I think given the large number of people who were able to correctly predict many of the problems that would go along with tech evolution under capitalism means that Kaczynski's analysis isn't actually that unique or novel of an achievement to write home about.

Ted predicted in the manifesto that the worldwide technological system could collapse at as early a date as 2035, which he provided no good evidence for, then in a later letter claimed this was just a guess and that he wouldn't attempt to defend it.

He also briefly predicted the US wars in Vietnam and Iraq would have a net good impact on the world, which we can see how well those turned out.

The articles and books Ted bought into or misinterpreted is notable too.

He saved onto an article from Esquire called The Human Race Has, Maybe, Thirty-five Years Left which predicted that agricultural production couldn't keep increasing, so we'd have to be eating plankton or each other in 2022.

He was also briefly suckered in by some some scientific sounding evidence for a spoon bending magician's paranormal beliefs, and so briefly feared that "thirty years from now, we may have government-employed psychics wandering around checking up on our thoughts to make sure we aren't planning to do anything illegal."

Finally, Ted's manifesto is to a large extent a condensed American vernacular version of Ellul's The Technological Society which Ted zealously re-read and loved, but this book was meant to be read in tandem with Autopsy of Revolution which Ted really didn't like. He wrote to Ellul about the latter book in a way that I think showed he didn't fully understand how Ellul's arguments all tied together. As I think he simply read into the text what he wanted to be there and not what was actually written.

Quoting Ted:

In the section Aims of Revolution you say, "the issue is not technology per see, but the present structure of society." In the section Focus of Revolution, you say that the revolution must be "against the technological society not against technology)." Further on, you indicate that we must "master technology". This seems to suggest the notion that we can have an advanced technology and still avoid the bad aspects of the technological society. If this is what you meant, then the idea is probably incorrect, and very dangerous.
--Ted Kaczynski's Letter to Ellul

Also, quoting Sean Fleming, a political science research fellow:

I think what's interesting about the relationship between Kaczynski and Ellul is not just that Ellul influenced Kaczynski, but also that Ellul anticipated a lot of Kaczynski's arguments and tried to pre-empt them. He anticipated that someone much like Kaczynski would eventually come along and try to use his arguments to justify a violent revolution against technology. He tried to head that off in advance.
--Kaczynski, Ellul, and the Future of Anti-Tech Radicalism with Sean Fleming

So, I think Ellul is a great person to read for both a critique of technological overconsumption and an antidote to the rigid position of Kaczynski:

If we see technique as nothing but objects that can be useful (and we need to check whether they are indeed useful); and if we stop believing in technique for its own sake or that of society; and if we stop fearing technique, and treat it as one thing among many others, then we destroy the basis for the power technique has over humanity.
--Perspectives on Our Age by Jacques Ellul & Willem H. Vanderburg

Finally, I'd recommend David Charles's blog, which has some great ideas for how to practice living a low-impact lifestyle:
 
Last edited:

About us

  • Squat the Planet is the world's largest social network for misfit travelers. Join our community of do-it-yourself nomads and learn how to explore the world by any means necessary.

    More Info

Latest Library Uploads