Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion

Maxnomad

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Apophatic theology is a negative approach to understanding god. It's based on the idea that we can't understand the absolute. There will always be things we don't know, and if god is the sum of all being then we can't know god, not perfectly. It's easier to approach the idea of what god is not. (Obviously this raises a contradiction, but this is a paragraph blurb on a train kid forum an I'm an oogle). For instance you could say god is not stabbing your friends in the back. God made us in their image, so acting shitty is straying from the path of god. Or, god is not a beardy guy in the sky, and god is not midwestern politicians trying to control women's bodies. God is not our fear or our anger. Faith would be just living with never being totally certain. Someone who knows they're going to heaven can never have faith
 
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benton

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this is one of my favorite topics

all religion is man-made and Jesus never created a bureaucracy

I believe it is possible for one to have a direct experience of The Creator and/or Christ Jesus and this experience cannot be quantified and is proof of nothing.

We can only speculate - no one knows if there is an after life and other than direct experience (which is subjective in my view) or choosing to believe (faith means belief) we cannot demonstrate if there is a being or force that created everything, or if there isn't (which is a big part of why this life can be so interesting imo).
 
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Maxnomad

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Are you sure? Cause it sounds like you're thinking of something else, I'm not seeing pascal's wager in any of that. Regardless, if you're opposed to people trying to set themselves up as authorities and run other people's lives that makes sense to me, but scientism isn't your friend
 

Gypsybones

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To quote hitch

I’m an atheist. I'm not neutral about religion, I'm hostile to it. I think it is a positively bad idea, not just a false one. And I mean not just organized religion, but religious belief itself.
 
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I cant understand being hostile toward religion. Ive known way to many religious ppl that were really good ppl, mainly bc of thier faith. Its not my place to tell someone what to believe.

If some ol Granny wants to pray for her grandkids morning to night, or if some kid from Laos wants to go see a fortune teller to sort out his life, that sounds pretty okay to me. Whats life wo whimsy?

It doesnt matter what someone believes.
But rather how those beliefs affect thier behavior and treatment towards others.
 
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Dameon

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I cant understand being hostile toward religion. Ive known way to many religious ppl that were really good ppl, mainly bc of thier faith. Its not my place to tell someone what to believe.
First off, hating religion doesn't necessarily translate to hating religious people. Second, it's not faith in god that makes people good, ever. If you need the threat/reward of god to make you a good person, you're not a good person. There's no evidence that being religious makes you a more "good" person than somebody who's not religious, and there's no evidence that somebody becomes a better person just because they've accepted a religion.

As for reasons to hate religion, it's a long list. There's the fact that it's used to control people, regardless of whether they share your religion. Many states still have anti-homosexuality laws, many counties have laws against selling alcohol on a Sunday; religious people aren't content to just run their own lives according to their religion, they are set on running everybody else's, too. They vote for politicians who want to use that religion to control you, and they vote for those politicians based on their religion. There's very few openly non-religious politicians in higher government.

There's the massive amounts of shit that religion enables, from suicide bombers to churches covering up for rapists and child molesters; it's not surprising, when the major religions all condone genocide, rape, and slavery. There's all the native tribes decimated by missionaries, the wars started over who's what religion. Some of it would be possible without religion, but a lot of it is driven by religion.

Religion uses brainwashing techniques to rob people of their self-identity, dictating who they associate with, how they're allowed to live their lives, and what they're allowed to think. It's used to manipulate desperate people who don't have much to give into giving their money to rich scum, hoping that if they give enough money to god's representative, he'll cure their cancer. It's used to manipulate people into believing in whatever they're told, even if the evidence directly contradicts that.

I could honestly go on all day, but you get the idea.
 

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First off, hating religion doesn't necessarily translate to hating religious people. Second, it's not faith in god that makes people good, ever. If you need the threat/reward of god to make you a good person, you're not a good person. There's no evidence that being religious makes you a more "good" person than somebody who's not religious, and there's no evidence that somebody becomes a better person just because they've accepted a religion.

As for reasons to hate religion, it's a long list. There's the fact that it's used to control people, regardless of whether they share your religion. Many states still have anti-homosexuality laws, many counties have laws against selling alcohol on a Sunday; religious people aren't content to just run their own lives according to their religion, they are set on running everybody else's, too. They vote for politicians who want to use that religion to control you, and they vote for those politicians based on their religion. There's very few openly non-religious politicians in higher government.

There's the massive amounts of shit that religion enables, from suicide bombers to churches covering up for rapists and child molesters; it's not surprising, when the major religions all condone genocide, rape, and slavery. There's all the native tribes decimated by missionaries, the wars started over who's what religion. Some of it would be possible without religion, but a lot of it is driven by religion.

Religion uses brainwashing techniques to rob people of their self-identity, dictating who they associate with, how they're allowed to live their lives, and what they're allowed to think. It's used to manipulate desperate people who don't have much to give into giving their money to rich scum, hoping that if they give enough money to god's representative, he'll cure their cancer. It's used to manipulate people into believing in whatever they're told, even if the evidence directly contradicts that.

I could honestly go on all day, but you get the idea.


To your 1st paragraph; agreed. There are shitty people, religious, agnostic, athiest, etc. What I am saying is I know a lot of ppl that have committed themselves to a religion and it works for them. Im not gonna shit on that.

To your second; anyone that doesnt think for themselves will end up being controlled in one way another. I dont think religion should be blamed for ignorance. Correlation rather than causation.
And, politics are all bullshit regardless of religion

Third, I promise ya all those things would still be happening without religion. Humans would find another reason or ideology to justify atrocities. It just is, was, and always will be.

Fourth, stupid ppl will be manipulated with or without religion. Thats nature.

I started volunteering at the YMCA 3 years ago, bc I felt I owed some good tonthe world. Everyone there is hardcore christian. I was worried at first due to my appearance, lifestyle, beliefs. ALL of the ppl I have met there have been amazing.
They dont care what you are, they care about being good to ppl and promoting community and positivity. They dont push an agenda on you. Which is why i said, I dont care what ya believe, but how it affects your life.

Im agnostic. But if religion helps you in an authentic way, then do that shit.
 
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Gypsybones

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Most of your arguments come down to privilege. You have never lived in a society where you cannot take a break from your religion; where the phrase “god damn it” gets you locked up or killed because of blasphemy laws or being treated like chattel with no personal rights based on the fact you are female, lower caste, or different color from the ruling party.

There is one, just one, abortion clinic in the whole state of Mississippi. Why? Religion. The reason so many women in this country don’t have complete rights to their own bodies, is religion.

Take for example:
Say a man, just one, held a young girl down and sewed up her vagina, only leaving enough room to urinate and menstruate out of. We would probably be in general consensus that the death penalty would be to easy on him. But let that happen thousands of times and say it is part of your religion, then people tell you that you must respect their beliefs. It’s preposterous.

Don’t even get me started on what your “harmless believes” do to the lgbtq community.
 

Gypsybones

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Here is my challenge. Name one ethical statement made, or one ethical action performed, by a believer that could not have been uttered or done by a nonbeliever. And here is my second challenge. Can any reader think of a wicked statement made, or an evil action performed, precisely because of religious faith? The second question is easy to answer, is it not? The first - I have been asking it for some time - awaits a convincing reply. By what right, then, do the faithful assume this irritating mantle of righteousness? They have as much to apologize for as to explain.
 

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You sir, have high-jacked a tread that damion and myself were engaging in the exchange of free ideas and independent thought. Ideas that run counter to your own and rather than ignore this humanist discourse, you felt compelled to chime in with your two cents and snarky comments. You demand that us non-believers respect your “beliefs” but you refuse to give any credence to our stance.

You just had to tell us how wrong we are. Like a good little believer, you tow the party line. Get those damned atheists and spread gods word by the sword, if need be.

Well, there you have it. My reason for saying fuck your religion and the horse it stole to ride in on.

49908
 

benton

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To quote hitch

I’m an atheist. I'm not neutral about religion, I'm hostile to it. I think it is a positively bad idea, not just a false one. And I mean not just organized religion, but religious belief itself.
Christopher Hitchens handily won this debate against Dennis Prager and Dinesh D'Souza in my opinion. Here's the link to the youtube video.

I probably share your hostility towards religion, which in my view is both manmade and serves Satan and not the Most High God (assuming that these concepts actually exist, which is of course debatable).

I'm not sure what you mean by "religious belief" however.

And I do want to add that your characterizations of the behaviors of the other posters in this thread are opinions and we all know what those are worth...
 

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You sir, have high-jacked a tread that damion and myself were engaging in the exchange of free ideas and independent thought.
It's not a very free exchange of ideas if you're berating people for coming in with different opinions.

To your 1st paragraph; agreed. There are shitty people, religious, agnostic, athiest, etc. What I am saying is I know a lot of ppl that have committed themselves to a religion and it works for them. Im not gonna shit on that.
I'll address this, because it's what all your arguments come down to (people are bad regardless of religion). How many atheist terrorist organizations are there, compared to religious terrorist organizations? Can you name any atheist equivalent to churches and their methods of brainwashing people while fleecing them for their money? How many people would you say that atheists have killed in the name of atheism throughout history?

You're arguing that people are good/bad equally without religion, but history just doesn't hold that up as true, and despite your own argument, you say that some people are made into better people because of religion. So when people do bad things, they would do those bad things anyway, but when they do good things, you believe that those good things are because of their religion. I know plenty of atheists who volunteer and donate to charity without judging people for their appearance and beliefs.

Religion brainwashes people into behavior that they absolutely wouldn't do without religion, because religion teaches you to ignore evidence and believe what you're told, and you don't have to worry about dying in service to god because this world is just a small stop before eternity. This isn't something that happens without religion, you need religion to convince people to prefer faith over facts. Yeah, you can argue there's theoretically atheist conmen, but is there an atheist equivalent to a megachurch? Atheism is all about critical thought, it's the opposite mentality of religion.

There's no such thing as a non-religious conversion camp, or an atheist suicide bomber. Religion gives people a shield to hide behind when they commit atrocities. Circumcised? Did the most sensitive part of your dick get removed without your consent and no anesthetic? It's okay, it's just religion.

Let's say that your local YMCA Christians are some magical perfect version of Christian, though. They don't vote based on religious agendas, they don't want you to convert and join their fold, they're just the ultimate nice Christian with no bad side. Quick analogy here, let's say there's a disease, and it affects most people badly, but one out of 100 acts as a carrier without the bad side effects. The problem is that they're still a carrier. Back from the analogy. Even if these Christians are as perfect as you think they are (hint: they're not), they still spread Christianity. If they're ultra-nice and accepting to you, maybe it's because that's a good way to spread their religion. Religion has bad side effects, and they're not just things people would do anyway.

Most of all, don't forget that your nice Christian friends worship a god that they believe is going to torture you for an infinite amount of time while they live in gold mansions and sing his praises, and your nice friends believe that this is good and right.
 

noothgrush

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It's not a very free exchange of ideas if you're berating people for coming in with different opinions.


I'll address this, because it's what all your arguments come down to (people are bad regardless of religion). How many atheist terrorist organizations are there, compared to religious terrorist organizations? Can you name any atheist equivalent to churches and their methods of brainwashing people while fleecing them for their money? How many people would you say that atheists have killed in the name of atheism throughout history?

You're arguing that people are good/bad equally without religion, but history just doesn't hold that up as true, and despite your own argument, you say that some people are made into better people because of religion. So when people do bad things, they would do those bad things anyway, but when they do good things, you believe that those good things are because of their religion. I know plenty of atheists who volunteer and donate to charity without judging people for their appearance and beliefs.

Religion brainwashes people into behavior that they absolutely wouldn't do without religion, because religion teaches you to ignore evidence and believe what you're told, and you don't have to worry about dying in service to god because this world is just a small stop before eternity. This isn't something that happens without religion, you need religion to convince people to prefer faith over facts. Yeah, you can argue there's theoretically atheist conmen, but is there an atheist equivalent to a megachurch? Atheism is all about critical thought, it's the opposite mentality of religion.

There's no such thing as a non-religious conversion camp, or an atheist suicide bomber. Religion gives people a shield to hide behind when they commit atrocities. Circumcised? Did the most sensitive part of your dick get removed without your consent and no anesthetic? It's okay, it's just religion.

Let's say that your local YMCA Christians are some magical perfect version of Christian, though. They don't vote based on religious agendas, they don't want you to convert and join their fold, they're just the ultimate nice Christian with no bad side. Quick analogy here, let's say there's a disease, and it affects most people badly, but one out of 100 acts as a carrier without the bad side effects. The problem is that they're still a carrier. Back from the analogy. Even if these Christians are as perfect as you think they are (hint: they're not), they still spread Christianity. If they're ultra-nice and accepting to you, maybe it's because that's a good way to spread their religion. Religion has bad side effects, and they're not just things people would do anyway.

Most of all, don't forget that your nice Christian friends worship a god that they believe is going to torture you for an infinite amount of time while they live in gold mansions and sing his praises, and your nice friends believe that this is good and right.
Ok Christian doctrine is bullshit. But admitting that isn't atheism. Athiesm is denial of all god or gods. Its just another belief doctrine.
 
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noothgrush

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Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.

If religious instruction were not allowed until children have attained the age of reason, we would be living in a quite different world.
Your right we would all be fanatical capitalists or communists finding other reasons to justify killing each other.
 
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