Suicide

[MFB]

Hunter S was quoted as saying he would feel really trapped if he didn't know he could commit suicide at any moment, which we know how that ended.

I've always felt the same. I take solace in knowing that when I'm old and brittle, I've used every bit of love and patience and strength, when I cant live the way I want to anymore; that there is an easy way out of it all. And I'm confident that's how it will end for me. It's not about depression, because I'm far from depressed. More about preference I suppose.

I've had this conversation with many people, few who don't find suicide as selfish, a waste of life, stubborn, a coward's way out... etc.
Do people deserve the right to decide for themselves without it being such a negatively viewed act?

 

[Kim Chee]

I sometimes answer a crisis line as a volunteer. I cannot tell somebody what they deserve to decide what is right for them. Whether you know it or not, there are people who do care about you who will notice or miss you when you are gone.

 

[Neogodhobo]

But someone cant live his life for other people`s feeling. We all miss our past away friends, animals, plant, objects... But its part of life. Without death, there is no life, without life, there is no death. People should not be scare of death, they should embrace it. If you got the luck of dying old, people should rejoice that this person died, not because he/she is dead, but because they lived a full life, because they had the chance to interact with the deceased, because they saw him in his good, and bad, moments. Death his part of life, and people should accept it, in order to die peacefully, as you were born, peacefully without a worry.

MFB : I plan, too, to kill myself when I get old and sick ( mainly, the sick part ) Its not negative, its just, I prefer going away peacefully rather than suffer in an hospital for months/years. I understand exactly how you feel and I feel the same way. But it is a tricky subject not a lot of people are willing to talk about, as it is taboo.

 

[drewski]

I sometimes answer a crisis line as a volunteer.

That's gotta be interesting. Feel like elaborating on conversations with these people?

 

[Kim Chee]

That's gotta be interesting. Feel like elaborating on conversations with these people?

I don't want to derail the thread. Sad calls, sometimes at odd hours. There is still a high suicide rate here (despite the program's success).

Back to the OPs question: In my present situation I cannot justify suicide as I see it as a form of cheating or quitting and I don't have a feeling of desperation. I wish it were different for those who seriously consider it a viable option.

 

[Neogodhobo]

Those who consider suicide (at a young age ) usually dont see a way out. I often propose to people who tell me they are not happy with their life, to just up and go travel, as it is the true meaning of life ( in my book ) but most often they dont want to abandon technology and everything (that is making them sad)

 

[Matt Derrick]

Hunter S was quoted as saying he would feel really trapped if he didn't know he could commit suicide at any moment, which we know how that ended.

I've always felt the same. I take solace in knowing that when I'm old and brittle, I've used every bit of love and patience and strength, when I cant live the way I want to anymore; that there is an easy way out of it all. And I'm confident that's how it will end for me. It's not about depression, because I'm far from depressed. More about preference I suppose.

I've had this conversation with many people, few who don't find suicide as selfish, a waste of life, stubborn, a coward's way out... etc.
Do people deserve the right to decide for themselves without it being such a negatively viewed act?

i agree with you. i know that's probably an option i'll take up at some point, i'd rather choose it for myself than rot away for years and years in misery. and like you said, it's not about being depressed or anything like that, it's just about choosing your way to the next life i guess. that said, i'm trying to take care of myself, so that i can live a long full life before my body craps out on me.

 

[MFB]

To those of us who contemplate suicide without the depression attached, I think we view it as an alternative to customary death.
Most of us are on this site because we are attracted to an alternative lifestyle, and support others in their quest for finding the life they want to live.
I think this support of alternative lifestyles should be extended to death, as Neogod said, without death, there is no life.

I know that I am loved, and will be missed and it certainly is humbling to have had such relationships, however I think that anyone that loved me would understand my decision. Respect it, know it wasn't a bad thing. And despite all that human love....nature knows no love!

 

[drewski]

I think suicide is probably one of the most interesting things you can do with your life...END IT.

We are the only species on this planet that can actually end our life on purpose. To me, I think that's pretty fucking fascinating. I don't sit and think too hard about, "what was going through his/her mind?" because it's something that no one can understand besides the person that's doing it. People who say shit like, "oh that's selfish, a cowards way out" fail to understand that they DON'T understand and quite frankly they're wrong. That's a very white and black way of thinking. Most of the time people say that out of anger and sadness because they want that person back in their life so they can feel better...which is selfish.

There is no point in trying to defend yourself or someone else that is supportive of the idea of suicide. Let someone else feel high and mighty because they don't want to kill themselves and would just NEVER dare to think about it. I could give a fuck. Suicide, as stated earlier in the thread, is not always done out of desperation or depression. Just like in Hunter's case. He lived a gnarly life, and felt it was over. That's great and good for him to take control of his own destiny. Good for anyone to do that. And even if you are depressed and don't see any possibility of light on the other side, if you choose to end your life, there you are. You made your own decision and that's probably THE absolute guaranteed right you have on this planet...to continue on or choose to throw in the towel.

 

[Tumbleweed]

My father committed suicide when I was 17. We had a unique relationship towards the end of his life; more like traveling partners than father and son, and I know that I was the closest person to him at the time. He was living in his car behind an abandoned dump and had burned a lot of bridges. I have spent 21 years contemplating his death and have come to the conclusion that his death was equal to his life: weak and craven but on his own terms and at a time of his choosing. I miss him and will always feel a mix of love and disdain for him.
My father was the same age I am today when he killed himself, 38.

 

[Neogodhobo]

(Just an inside :

Actually Drewski, animals commit suicide. Its not right to go on saying things as they are facts : `` We are the only species on this planet that can actually end our life on purpose.`` ...

Here are some facts :

28 cow and bulls commited suicide throwing themself off a cliff in the Alps

Source : http://www.sott.net/article/192414-...l-cows-throw-themselves-off-cliff-in-the-Alps

``the Acyrthosiphon pisum, a sap-sucking insect commonly known as the pea aphid, has been known to explode itself in order to protect its surrounding relatives from predators such as the ladybug, thereby sacrificing its life``

Source : http://blog.nus.edu.sg/lsm1303student2010/2010/04/09/natures-very-own-suicide-bombers/



So please verify your information before spreading it to people who will believe you. Because those 2 exemples I put on here are a small percentage of facts, they are many more animals that commit suicide such as dolphins, bears, dogs, etc etc.... Thanks.)

 

[drewski]

I'm sure you knew that right off the top of your head and didn't google it after you read my post, wanting to know if we were in fact the only species that can kill ourselves. I suppose I should have checked my facts, or put "one of the very few species" but I didn't really give that much of a fuck. Clearly you do, captain corrects-a-lot ::rules::. People who want to believe some post they read on the internet definitely need to be protected by good internet samaritans. Keep up the good work.

By the way, I caught two spelling errors in your response. Please make sure you check your spelling before you post it on a website where people will believe that is the real way to spell a word.

Oh, wait...We're all fucking adults.

Here's to your retarded logic: ::finger::

 

[Neogodhobo]

The facts that you spoke of something you have absolutely no idea of with assurance, speaks for itself. Yes, you should have checked your facts, because any species can commit suicide, not just a few. Its in the nature of all living thing.

By the way, would it have made a difference if I would have done my research at the library instead of on the internet ? You are right to suppose I questioned what you said, then use the internet to confirm my suspicion about the very things you said, ( I guess I could have waited til tomorrow to use the library if it made any difference ... ) and then I used the shared knowledge of the all mighty internet with you, in the hope to educate your knowledge. That maybe, you would just realize you were wrong, and I was hopeful you would thank me instead of turning all college kid on me. ( Intelligent people usually research what is said to them, while imbeciles just blurt out any noise they can make...just saying, Im sure your not an imbecile though, but your just reacting without thinking to my message by trying to make me look like an idiot in order not to look like an idiot, Its common psychology ( Yes, I did research this on the net, there are many free education website out there, psychology is one of my favorite subject) Im not saying im intelligent either, im just pointing out typical human behavior )

BUT, as you said, you dont give much of a fuck about the things you say ( so why even bother saying it in the first place ?!? ) . Though it kinda makes me think of this politician who said : ``Im not responsible for the things that comes out of my mouth``, this guy looked retarded. ( He was ). I hope this brings you to reflection, but Iv got the feeling you will only try to insult me again. In this case I would end this pointless conversation.

``We are the only species on this planet that can actually end our life on purpose. To me, I think that's pretty fucking fascinating.``
-Question ! is it still fascinating to you, now that you know we are far from the only species doing it ?!

(And by the way, I know you wrote this just to find something to bash me with, but you should be thankful that people like me learn your language so that everybody could communicate. If you know many language, and cant practice them a lot because there is no other people speaking it around you, then you can have a feeling of what it is to know different languages, after all, its not like I go around telling people the earth is flat when I have absolutely no clue of what Im saying...)

 

[drewski]

The facts that you spoke of something you have absolutely no idea of with assurance, speaks for itself. Yes, you should have checked your facts, because any species can commit suicide, not just a few. Its in the nature of all living thing.

By the way, would it have made a difference if I would have done my research at the library instead of on the internet ? You are right to suppose I questioned what you said, then use the internet to confirm my suspicion about the very things you said, ( I guess I could have waited til tomorrow to use the library if it made any difference ... ) and then I used the shared knowledge of the all mighty internet with you, in the hope to educate your knowledge. That maybe, you would just realize you were wrong, and I was hopeful you would thank me instead of turning all college kid on me. ( Intelligent people usually research what is said to them, while imbeciles just blurt out any noise they can make...just saying, Im sure your not an imbecile though, but your just reacting without thinking to my message by trying to make me look like an idiot in order not to look like an idiot, Its common psychology ( Yes, I did research this on the net, there are many free education website out there, psychology is one of my favorite subject) Im not saying im intelligent either, im just pointing out typical human behavior )

BUT, as you said, you dont give much of a fuck about the things you say ( so why even bother saying it in the first place ?!? ) . Though it kinda makes me think of this politician who said : ``Im not responsible for the things that comes out of my mouth``, this guy looked retarded. ( He was ). I hope this brings you to reflection, but Iv got the feeling you will only try to insult me again. In this case I would end this pointless conversation.

``We are the only species on this planet that can actually end our life on purpose. To me, I think that's pretty fucking fascinating.``
-Question ! is it still fascinating to you, now that you know we are far from the only species doing it ?!

(And by the way, I know you wrote this just to find something to bash me with, but you should be thankful that people like me learn your language so that everybody could communicate. If you know many language, and cant practice them a lot because there is no other people speaking it around you, then you can have a feeling of what it is to know different languages, after all, its not like I go around telling people the earth is flat when I have absolutely no clue of what Im saying...)

1) I am not thankful that you learned English. In fact, I'm so ungrateful towards you that I may be hurting your feelings at this point since you seem to need attention and praise like a schoolboy.
2) I don't give a fuck about what people think about me, especially on the internet. So your psychology hypothesis, that I insulted you to make you look like an idiot so I didn't look like an idiot, does not apply.
3) I never said I didn't give a fuck about what I say. I said I didn't care to fact-check myself nor did I have the time, which I took responsibility for. Therefore, your fucktard politician quote means nothing.
4) Yes, I still find suicide interesting. I would also find it interesting if you were run over by a Mack truck.
5) Now, fuck off.

 

[MFB]

Tumbleweed-Thank you for your story. Sorry for what you had to go through. That's the type of emotion I was hoping to stir in this thread. I am curious, do you think that closure would have been more easily accomplished had you and your father had a better relationship?

Drewski and Neogod- Dont be buttheads to each other! Interesting topic though. After reading the articles, I still lean toward animals not purposely committing suicide.
The cow article even states 'evolutionary pressures cause them to feel the urge to change habitat' and that most scientists believe animals incapable of suicide.
Nothing really factual or mentioning studies done.
The insect article seemed more tongue and cheek. Plus it was a blog by students. While in a way, yes, the insects are committing suicide...its more of an involuntary self defense mechanism...like you and I would pull our hand away from touching a hot stove without thinking about it. I wouldn't consider that suicide in the way we are discussing it.

Interesting articles though, thank you. Definitely an interesting topic that I'll do some more research on.

 

[Neogodhobo]

MFB : Well the insects one is covered by many people, and well I was replying to : ``animal who end their life on purpose``

Anyhow more on the subject of suicide, there is also this dogs who kept trying to suicide himself by drowning in a pool ( eventually succeeded after many try to saved him ) and that dolphin who commited suicide because it was depressive... Some Ducks who went drowning on purpose.... I read a bit more on the subjects and some expert say that ,even though animals make actions that will lead to their death, after being depressive or loosing a companion, it is not suicide as they are not aware their action will lead them to their death.

It sure is pretty interesting to read about it though, I still consider it suicide ( by instinct ? ) probably not the same kind of suicide we have... Although, could it be that our Suicide is actually a act of instinct, that we transformed into profound thinking ?! So at source, it would be the same, our instinct takes over and we act depressive, until we die...??

 

[MFB]

I think there is a lot of grey area with the idea of animals and suicide. I tend to stay on the fence on topics until presented with facts.

I think its obvious animals have repeatedly shown that they are far more capable emotionally and psychologically than we often give them credit for. (that Sebastion the Lion vid still gets me teary eyed! )

I do find it hard to believe that they consciously decide on suicide. The idea that suicide for humans at it's core is more instinctual than a conscious decision is a bit over my head, perhaps to philosophical. I believe one may have a predisposition leading to a higher likelihood of suicide, but ultimately I believe it to be a decision.

 

[Neogodhobo]

Yes, there is lots of grey with animal in overall. Hard to say whether its our instinct taking over or not. When your brains cant make a way out of misery, wont it systematically find a way out itself ? Its a decision made by your brain, decided by instinct. Kinda like the Fight or Flight instinct ?!

Im just trying to understand why a dog or a duck would drown themselves after loosing their companion if its not a decision. How can such an action not be willingness to die... I wonder if they are actual research of this somewhere..

 

[Tumbleweed]

Tumbleweed-Thank you for your story. Sorry for what you had to go through. That's the type of emotion I was hoping to stir in this thread. I am curious, do you think that closure would have been more easily accomplished had you and your father had a better relationship?

MFB,
I didn't have a bad relationship with my father, just an unconventional one. I don't have any regrets/complains about how I was raised. Basically, my father taught me the survival skills that most people learn on the road from fellow travelers. We dumpstered together, rubber tramped, flew signs for food and work and I learned how to go unnoticed and to find the lost places where hobos and tramps can be safe. He taught me how to be strong and independent and then fuckin' killed himself.
It's interesting that this conversation has turned to the question of instinct. I think that most of us can agree that instincts operate as species defense mechanisms. Suicide, in the human context at least, serves the opposite purpose. You have to have a very distopic world view to see suicide as a instinctual trait. I think of suicide as a personal statement negating life.
If you are almost dead (terminal illness or debilitating injury for example) then I'm not sure that bringing your life to an end by a method that suits you, and at a time of your choosing, really qualifies as suicide. We routinely give terminal cancer patients morphine in an effort to "ease their pain". I have watched this process twice and believe that the morphine actually facilitated their deaths. My point here is that assisted death, whether by your own hand or through some Kavorkian method, is not the same as suicide, not on an instinctual level or from a psychological perspective.
My father didn't die with dignity he simply gave up on life and killed himself. It was a shitty end that left everyone who had loved him a little bit broken. Before his death I thought of myself as a live fast, die young punk (corny but true) without a future, which was fine by me. After his death I began to see this attitude for what it really is; lazy egotism.
One last point - it's close to impossible to take away a persons abilily to kill themselves. I've known 3 people, including my father, who died by suicide and many more who tried and failed. I don't have any sympathy or pity for these people. Life can be brutal and every day requires a fight for survival but isn't that what makes life great?

 

[Thrasymachus]

The whole, "I will commit suicide before I get old and brittle sentiment," is mostly posturing. You cannot find a significant trend of people killing themselves to avoid physical decline and aging, despite all the affirmations of the young who say they would rather do themselves in rather than become old. Ultimately most people are too scared of the unknown, of what happens after death, to commit suicide.

Though I don't respect the "think of the people you will leave behind sentiment," either. No one asked or volunteered to be born. Suicide is perhaps one of the only democratic acts someone can exercise in life if you think about it. Sure it will upset your loved ones, but it was impossible for your parents to consider if you wanted to be born or born into the type of horrible world we have. I look at life as a curse that mothers and fathers give to their kids.