Resolved Seeking input on changing some of the goals of StP

[Matt Derrick]

Edit: votes indicate we're basically fine as is, so I'm not planning any major updates or new directions in focus as written below.

Hey folks, I know I've been pretty quiet on here for the past few months and that's mostly been on purpose, since I've been going through a lot of personal issues lately, and I just needed to take a step back from the StP community and work out some of my own shit.

The short version is that at 43 years old, I'm just not a dirty kid traveler anymore. I don't regret my time being a vagabond and seeing all the things I've seen and things I've done, but I've been feeling like I am becoming more and more disconnected from that world as I time goes on; at the same time, I have no desire to go back to the lifestyle that was such a large portion of my life. Living under bridges and being cold/hungry in my twenties and thirties was tolerable in the pursuit of adventure, but in your forties, you start to have to worry about a body that is starting to break down a little, and you start wondering where to go from here, since going backwards isn't really an option anymore.

At the same time, StP hasn't really evolved beyond the 'dirty kid' vibe, and while I get that, it also makes it hard for me to work on or maintain something I'm not really a part of anymore. It's like being forced to run a basketball website when you just don't have that much interest in it anymore.

And it's not to say that I don't have any interest in StP, or it's associated sub-cultures at all, it's just the dirty kid traveler aspect of it that I feel needs to evolve, or I just need to walk away from it and let it be. This is in combination with the entirety of the anarchist/activist/traveler/punk movement feeling especially dead for the past 5+ years that have really demotivated me in regard to working on StP, as there just doesn't seem to be much of a community left to pull together.

Personally, I'm not done traveling, not entirely, but I've gotten to the point where just about everything in the USA bores the hell out of me; this whole country feels like one big strip mall. Over the past 25 years I've been to every city and almost every major place in the USA dozens of times over, and it's really bumming me out; I feel like the definition of insanity, just doing the same thing over and over again, expecting something will be different this time.

Maybe my passion for travel will be reinvigorated when I get out of the USA (more on that later), but for now I'm feeling pretty stagnant.

I also just quit a job that was extremely good to me for the past three years, had health insurance, and paid great, but I'm just bored to tears of working in the IT industry. I've taken the money I've saved up, and I am spending the next 6–12 months self-training for a new job in 3D environment design, which basically means I'd be making levels for video games and possibly environments for TV/film. I'm very much looking forward to having some kind of artistic outlet through computers, which is something I've been craving for quite a while now.

I've been happy to just let StP float along as-is for the time being, and if ultimately that's the way it needs to stay, then I'll leave it be until I can find someone to take over.

But, the recent disaster with Elon Musk (the shithead-billionaire-man-baby) and Twitter made me take another look into other social media alternatives like Mastodon (for those that don't know, it's an open-source/decentralized twitter clone). Does anyone remember when social media was useful? When you didn't have to deal with a shitload of ads or bullshit articles with questionable motives? When it was just following your friends, so you know what everyone is up to? I think most people have moved to Instagram for that now, but goddamn there are so many fucking ads.

The point is, does anyone remember when social media wasn't a fucking cancer?

Mastodon made me start thinking about some of the possibilities for StP's future. There's obviously a need for social media alternatives out there, and the anarchist/activist/traveler/punk subcultures are no exception. Most people in the traveler subculture have at least heard of StP; why not expand the site from being focused on travel-only subject to a broader, more general social network for everyone?

To be clear, I don't mean for everyone, everyone, like your mom that keeps saying you need Jesus in your life, or your trump-loving dad. But rather a social network centered on alternative cultures as a whole, providing a space free from most of the bullshit you see on the big social networks. I'm not trying to be Facebook here, but I'd like to see a space where we can discuss things relevant to us in a space that isn't trying to sell every aspect of your life back to you in some way or another.

This is all just a long-winded way of saying I've been considering expanding the focus of StP in order to bring together alternative communities around the globe, not just the traveler community.

Not only do I think this is a good step in the right direction for StP to remain relevant, but the idea also maintains my interest in working on the StP site itself.

At this point, you're probably asking yourself what that would actually look like, and how StP would change to fit that model. I'm actually not 100% sure to be honest, but I have some vague ideas, and I'm hoping you have some of your own to share with us as well.

Some ideas:

• A re-arrangement of forum sections, probably getting rid of some less-used areas and adding a lot more sections to facilitate discussion on a variety of subjects. i don't specifically know what those sections would be, i'm hoping we could figure that out through community discussion.
• Possibly the addition of 'groups' to let users create their own discussion groups
• possibly adding a community events calendar, so folks can let the world know when interesting events are coming up (like the jamboree or punks in the woods).
• Addition of music and movies catalogs using these two plugins:
  Music Thread Starter for XenForo - https://xenforo.com/community/resources/music-thread-starter-for-xenforo.6050/
  TMDb Movie Thread Starter for XenForo - https://xenforo.com/community/resources/tmdb-movie-thread-starter-for-xenforo.5655/
• community events not related to travel; an example might be a StP online D&D group or other gaming group organized via our discord server.
• possibly adding a discussion area where folks can start their own group that is divided by area/city for discussions of things going on in that city (i.e. portland.squattheplanet.com)
• a mastodon instance for users to use if they wish, would be connected to the federated mastodon network (anyone can msg anyone else on any mastodon instance) probably using squattheplanet.net or squattheplanet.org.
• Possibly putting the mastodon instance on the front page, and moving the forums to squattheplanet.com/forums
• Use of the StP discord would continue until alternatives like element become more mature

monetization:

In addition, I would like to move from donations to a patreon-style membership system. Tiers would likely include a $1 and $5 level, with the possibility of adding an optional $10 and $20 tier as more features are added to the website. BUT, I am very intent on providing some kind of value for these tiers, such as the ability to delete edit posts for an unlimited amount of time (currently limited to 7 days), the ability to edit the visual design of your profile (ala MySpace), a custom URL for your profile, special color username in the message board and in discord, and a ton of other stuff. There will never be any paywalls (i.e. free users will have access to all message board content paid users do).

So yeah, those are my thoughts on this right now, and I'd like to know what yours are. I've started a poll to let you all give your feedback on whether this is a good idea or not. Please feel free to vote in the poll and post your thoughts in this thread. Please don't be afraid to tell me this is a bad idea if you honestly feel that way, but also, please be constructive in your criticisms.

Thank you for your time, and I hope that this all proves to be a valuable discussion in bringing StP forward and making it even more useful for people in facilitating in real life interactions.

 

[Joey Garbanzo]

Sorry you're losing interest but I like it the way it is. I personally don't want to see it change and if I am obligated to pay in order to make use of features then I'm out.

 

[Matt Derrick]

Sorry you're losing interest but I like it the way it is. I personally don't want to see it change and if I am obligated to pay in order to make use of features then I'm out.

To be clear, you wouldn't be 'obligated to pay' any more than you are now. As stated:

There will never be any paywalls (i.e. free users will have access to all message board content paid users do).

As a reminder, it takes an incredible amount of time and work on my part to provide StP to you for free, and I've been doing it for over 20 years now. What I'm asking for is a little bit of support, the equivalent of a cup of coffee a month, if you're willing to support this project.

 

[Joey Garbanzo]

So more of a co-op in a sense? Sorry man, not very tech savvy.

 

[ali]

I don't have a problem with broadening into adjacent topics, although i do wonder really how much interest there is considering how quiet the existing forums on music, art, festivals, overseas travel etc are. Even when people here are into that stuff, it seems they would prefer to talk about it elsewhere, for whatever reason. It's possible that opening a Mastodon instance might get new people to arrive and cross over to the forums to talk about those sorts of topics, but i suspect not. The people tooting out hot takes on the Mastodon instance i'm on don't have much crossover with the much older online community that hosts it.

That said, if you're interested in hosting a Mastodon instance, why not do it? Yeah it'll be a bunch of extra work and likely cost more money than you bring in (seems to be around 30€ per month for server costs, plus labor), but it also might be a way to meet interesting people or build a community a bit different from the StP forum crew. I don't think adding stuff is going to take away from anything the existing users enjoy, just bear in mind it will also create more work for you.

I think if you are interested in gaming - both video games/level design and pen and paper RPGs - it seems the right thing to do to keep you engaged in the site would be to focus on creating a space for those things. There is some overlap with certain types of travelers in the sense of kids who look to gaming as an escape before they can easily travel, and adults who use games as a way of exploring new places when their real life circumstance may not accommodate a full-blown traveler lifestyle. A community of people interested in building or traveling in virtual spaces is something that feels aligned with what interests you and is still a focused enough concept that you can "brand" it for newcomers who otherwise might not see the point of joining yet another server or forum, so perhaps that is a route you could go.

One thing i'd ask yourself is what does your personal social network look like right now? If you speak to your friends and contacts outside of the "dirty kid" scene, how many of them would be interested in joining up on some new place to talk about stuff? What would they want to talk about? What do they feel is missing elsewhere on the internet that you could provide? Because if you don't start with your own network or a bunch of compelling content on a particular topic, it'll be hard to entice random internet people to sign up.

From my side - outside of travel - i love electronic music and walking sims and point'n'click/narrative adventures and sci-fi shows and spy shows and minimalist software and open source and the history of food and political topics around globalization and international relations and a bunch of other stuff. I wouldn't mind a place to talk about some of those things, but there's gotta be other people there too otherwise eh.

 

[Dmac]

Do what you want, Matt, it’s all good.

 

[texastraveler]

make an StP chan board

 

[Colinleath]

I like it as it is and also agree (being 46 myself) that a change or broadening of scope sounds intriguing.

As an aside, the Ecotopiabiketour.net folks have switched to matrix and element from signal and other messaging apps and that seems to work pretty well (though if encryption in the groups is turned on I don't think you can see messages posted prior to you joining)

I was impressed the recent site upgrade came through alright.

Since STP is a one-man show, it seems natural it will change or stop working based on your interest or motivation.

here's a not unrelated one-man show

Small festivals & retreats in Europe

A calendar of small, cool music festivals, yoga retreats, contact improv gatherings, juggling conventions & other interesting events in Europe & nearby

festivalsandretreats.com

with a European focus and no or minimal online discussion features but which also includes a few different types of low cost in-person gatherings. . .

if you were to widen the scope I'm curious how you'd do it and then manage what i assume would be increased moderation needs.

I'm not sure turning this into a business or other type of org would be the worst thing. Maybe it's because they're still venture-funded, but ads at places like discord, signal, tutanota seem minimal or non-existent.

it does seem that, as you say, there's an opportunity to draw mindshare away from the giants.

Jaron Lanier has some thoughts about how to create a more equitable network society in Who Owns the Future? - Who Owns the Future? - Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whwns_the_Future%3F

and I'm pretty sure he provides some pointers about how we might get there from where we are now.

for my part, i sort of moved to substack due to better drafting and saving, but i also haven't been posting much over there (seems I'm enjoying the silence).

it's worth asking how or whether you can make something that could live on without you or if you even want to try.

there are some one-person shows that when the main instigator moves on there's been enough value created that people scramble to set up a non profit to keep the lights on a bit longer.

failing that, there's just the static archive of archive.org.


Twitter is actually still manageable with enough blocking and muting, and newer efforts like farcaster are interesting too.


There's also the whole world of for-profit message boards. (Candlepowerforums and the like, an endless list).

If you just vanished and the domain got bought by someone else, i could see them setting up a message board with ads on this domain.

So yeah, it's definitely up to you! If you want to go off and do 3d modeling that sounds cool. Don't be afraid to move on.

R/vagabond has the dirty kid community at least partly covered too. So people will find alternatives.

I think a lot of these questions come down to where we feel the most motivation and energy lie. Like maybe 3d modeling wouldn't do it for you.. . Or maybe you'll find some new synthesis of networking and 3d stuff.


At any rate I'm grateful for what you've created here. It's been good for me and i look forward to seeing what you figure out next.

 

[Scat]

Yeah, you know this was an idea I had bouncing around for a while, but it's impossible to actualize with the situation I'm in without stable electricity or money, haha. I would definitely help out in support of this idea if you manage to bring it to fruition! I'm transitioning from being homeless into homesteading now so I get where you're coming from with the life changes n all.

 

[MetalBryan]

Since you turned me onto Mint Mobile, I wanted to point to their fee schedule as something to consider. I imagine most of us have our disposable income fluctuate month to month. It would be nice, for example, to buy 3, 6, or 12 months of subscription at once if I'm flush but would also allow me to coast on a free account for a while when I need to. Being a part-time activist and part-time worker myself, I tend to avoid donating dollars and prefer to buy some merch but that has limited what I contribute financially to this endeavor. I would not feel hurt if I got monetized out of a service.

Mostly I'm commenting because I appreciated how you've laid out and articulated your feelings about this creation of yours. Without adding unnecessary length to this post, I think our (me & Matt) place in life is more similar than not right now regarding age & sense of community. I'll add that some artist friends of mine have been lamenting how being a creative across multiple social media platforms has put a hard limit on their audience and bogged them down like posting is more of a bureaucratic effort than sharing something exciting. Once covid hit, I slowly stopped posting anything meaningful altogether. Friends have had their self-image or mental health issues amplified because of covid and it has made interacting with social media almost unbearable which is more of a dig on me than anything. I'm only on one platform and don't really know how to respond to the complexity of their feelings without the body-language. The emotional broadcasting of friends buttressed by ads that look like content is exhausting. I thought about moving to mastodon but haven't been excited enough to get around to doing it. I share more of my thoughts here at StP than anywhere else. I like the semi-anonymity and that douche-bags are forgotten en masse so quickly that maintaining my favorite feature, den-of-the-banned, was no longer necessary.

You should do what is best for you. If monitization kills it for everyone you'll feel sad for a bit but then you can move on with your life in a way that respects how you've changed over the years. Consult your ancient account holders and ignore the complaints of us noobs. Good luck!

 

[Matt Derrick]

so, i had my suspicions when i posted this, but figured i should post it anyways and get feedback, and i think most of you are right about a lot of things, but @ali i think hit it on the head that I should be really asking myself if I have the time to do these things. I'm living off some saved up money at the moment to learn a new career path (3d environment design) and without going into all the boring details, I really should be concentrating my time on that.

i am just kind of cursed in the way that I'm always having ideas grander than my ability or free time to make them happen. basically, "wouldn't it be cool to do x, y, and z?" and "what if we could get everyone together to do a, b, and c, it would be amazing" so i guess I just have my head up in the clouds quite a bit; I need to remind myself I can't do everything all at once, I keep trying and none of those plans generally pan out.

im also maybe just not used to the idea that there isn't a million things that need to be done here, that things are good 'as-is' and that's fine. over the past 20 years im just used to always having something StP related to worry about and that hasn't been the case lately, and that's a good thing.

also, maybe it's time i started participating in some other communities instead of insisting on starting new ones of my own, so I think im going to work on that as well ( helping out with hitchwiki and maybe a being in a dnd group im not in charge of would be nice )

So I'm going to leave things alone for the time being. Folks find the site useful and I'm glad it's serving a purpose.

One thing I will do though is I'll post about the next Jamboree so we can get that ball rolling early this year and get more people attending, but I'll post details on that in another thread.

Thank you everyone for your input, it was all very valuable