Leaving the US without Passport. Any advice?

PaulG

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I am leaving in a month or so for parts unknown. First I'll sail parts of the Caribbean and the eastern coast of Mexico (MX). From there I'll start a circumnavigation. East-about or west-about, I am not sure yet.

I am pretty sure I don't need a passport for MX, but what will I encounter sailing the Pacific? Does anyone have any experience doing this without a passport?

How about current experience living without a passport in MX?
 

Matt Derrick

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I am pretty sure I don't need a passport for MX

They're probably not going to look too hard coming in over a land boarder, but officially, yes you need a passport.

Sounds like you're coming in via sea though, so I just wanted to point out that I knew some folks that got their boat seized in Mexico because customs wasn't around when they got there (late at night) and they said 'screw it' and went to go get some beer at the local convenience store. I'm pretty sure it took them something like 6+ years to get it back.
 
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PaulG

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They're probably not going to look too hard coming in over a land boarder, but officially, yes you need a passport.

Sounds like you're coming in via sea though, so I just wanted to point out that I knew some folks that got their boat seized in Mexico because customs wasn't around when they got there (late at night) and went to go get some beer at the local convenience store. I'm pretty sure it took them something like 6+ years to get it back.

Yes. I am sailing. Thanks for the confirmation, because I had read on a sailing forum that it was critical to have the correct paperwork in place to avoid confiscation problems. Part of the issue is that it is really hard to know from these forums what is fact and what is fear. So, your first hand information is great to add clarity. Thanks.

My main issue is that almost every document in every country requires a passport to get that document.

So I guess, at the end of the day, I need a way to obtain a passport, but I had rather find a country that is going to more lenient in allowing me to visit long term.

But how to obtain a passport is the issue for me. I have read that if you find the correct official in the right country they can help. But that seems like a needle and a haystack and a good way to get on the wrong side of the law in that particular country.
 

PaulG

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I guess I am just looking for the countries that are more so easy going. Maybe they don't exist. I don't know for sure, that is why I am here.

Which are more easy going? Latin countries? Asian countries? European? African? UAE?

One thing is for sure, I am about to get some first hand experience! lol
 
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Matt Derrick

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I'm assuming you're an American citizen. What's so hard about getting a passport? It's really not that difficult.
 
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PaulG

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I'm assuming you're an American citizen. What's so hard about getting a passport? It's really not that difficult.

Yes, I guess I am going to have to apply for one. I just don't see any reasonable way around it. The probabilities of success without one are seemingly very low.

I'm assuming you're an American citizen. What's so hard about getting a passport? It's really not that difficult.

Yes. I am an American Citizen.
 

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I think i had a friend intent on trying this and he eventually went the passport route.

He got to Oman from US west coast without flying. But on other's boats.

I'll have to ask if initially he was trying to do it with no passport.

I do know his initial boat was a dugout canoe he was constructing in the Santa Monica mountains, that somehow vanished at some point during the construction process.

The second boat was a small sailboat his grandfather left him I think.


But he got picked up by the coastguard or some police in san Pedro for not having a motor. . . And maybe no lights?

For better or worse he refused to talk and i think got sent to mental health or something crazy like that. . .

Anyways he's been doing fine for quite a while now and left the US more than eleven years ago. But now uses a passport and airplanes. . .
 

PaulG

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I am still trying to find a way. It just somehow does not sit well with me that I need permission to leave the USA (by being issued a passport). And yes, I can get a US passport and have had one previously when I traveled around the world for a few years.

However, my stance is different when trying to enter a country. I can rationalize that to enter into someone else's home I would need permission to enter that home. So, it seems reasonable that I would need permission when entering into a foreign country. Unfortunately, the standard way all countries police entry into their country is by verifying the traveler's passport. So without a passport, entry is normally denied.

But importantly, I should not need permission to leave someone's home. Or even my own home. If I am in a person's home and they prevent me from leaving, that is in fact against the law. It is akin to imprisonment, and legally defined as false imprisonment. So by needing permission to leave the US, I am effectively imprisoned here if I can't get permission.

But apparently, my largest problem is entering other countries once I exit the US. I can certainly get a US passport. But as I said, I would like to leave without a passport. Best I can tell, no country will allow me entry without a passport.
(Some exceptions being:
  • a closed loop cruise to some countries. Travelers in a closed loop cruise often just need a state issued ID and a birth certificate (Mexico for example) But this is only for temporary / short term entry;
  • another exception is gaining refugee status (but apparently you need permission from the United Nations to do this);
  • in a dire emergency situation concerning life and death; or
  • in some instances countries would allow entry when asking for protection from persecution from another country (a person seeking asylum))

As a side note, another big surprise to me has been that to renounce my citizenship in the US, I must first be granted citizenship by another country. Now, I have no current plans of renouncing my US citizenship, I just find it logically fallible that I can't be an individual in the world without me granting a "sovereign authority" permission to rule over me. And indeed, when we are a citizen of a country, we are in essence granting that country to have sovereign rights over us in exchange for that country's benefits.
 

ali

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As you have discoverd, you technically don't need permission to leave the US, but you do need permission to enter other countries, including their territorial waters. The reason countries check your passport when you leave (and to be clear - lots of countries do not check your passport when you leave) is either to "stamp you out" and make sure as a foreigner you didn't overstay your visa, or because they don't want to pay for the hassle of having to repatriate you when your destination country doesn't let you in because you didn't have the right paperwork. It's a viral system - as soon as one country enforces its borders, all of the ones around it have to as well, and then that domino effects around the rest of the world.

I am totally onboard with the idea of no borders, and i think passports and national citizenship are stupid, and i wish they didn't exist. But the reality is they do. There are very, very few countries that have real, actual open border policies. Most famously countries in the European Schengen zone are ones that do this. There are also some countries in Central America where you can cross the border without a passport check because there just isn't anyone there to do the passport check, but you're gonna end up in trouble if you later try to leave the country at an actually-manned border because you will be missing an entry stamp. And either way, you still can't present yourself as a citizen of nowhere. You need to show some kind of national citizenship so the other place knows where you are allowed to go next, or where to boot you back to given you're in their country illegally (from their perspective). Nobody wants you to become their problem just because you've decided you don't agree with the philosophy of citizenship.

On the flip side, it could be a lot worse. There are lots of countries where you need paperwork just to travel inside the same country. Notably China. And i don't just mean Hong Kong and Macau, which are both legally part of China, but they issue different passports and have entirely different immigration procedures. Even in the mainland you have to show identity paperwork to travel from one city to another. And if you want to buy property or get healthcare or send your kids to school in another city, you have to go through "immigration" to that new city, which can sometimes cost amounts completely unattainable for rural people. There are quite a few authoritarian countries that operate this way. The US is very far from a prison compared to these places.

But to be fair, even in relatively free countries, you often need to prove residence in one region or another just to be able to live an ordinary life. For instance in Canada you have to file for residence in a particular province in order to gain access to universal healthcare provided by that province. Even if you are a Canadian citizen, if you don't have formal residence in any particular province, you don't get the healthcare, because it's provincial, not federal. Lots of other services are the same. Germany has similar restrictions around public services provided by local jurisdictions, and i am sure other countries do too, including the US.

You could look at all this as some kind of big sinister plot to control people's lives... But in reality it's just bureaucracy. It's hard to govern a country of tens or hundreds of millions of people - let alone a planet of billions - so humans have generally moved toward the idea of splitting the world up into smaller regions that allow local people some degree of autonomy over the kind of society they want to build there. In order to maintain that society, some rules are put into place around what steps an outsider should take to become a part of it, and that's immigration. If as an individual you don't feel at home in the society you were born into, you have the choice to try to emigrate, but then you hit the bureaucracy that the other societies set up to protect their autonomy. This concept of national citizenship as recognized across different jurisdictions got invented to try to simplify all of this stuff, and while it works for most people (especially those who by luck of the draw were born in rich and prosperous countries), it sure makes life more difficult for travelers.

Trust me, i've lived in many countries and gone through immigration several times in the last decade alone. I am not a fan of this crap. It fucking sucks. It's not fun. It's not easy. It's stressful. It's expensive. It's a massive pain in the ass. Anyone who thinks immigrants are taking the easy way out is woefully misinformed. But... yeah... this is the shit we eat because we want to visit and contribute to new societies. Some of us do it multiple times, to one country and then the next. End of the day this is the way things are, and either you deal with it and see the world, or opt out of the bureaucracy and remain where you started.
 

sevedemanos

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canada has been going pretty nazi on ‘undesireables’ of late. they've been taking a hard not my problem approach to most everything. veterans with ptsd are recommended euthanasia, people get deported all the time for looking homeless. the ultimate cuck nation from the sounds of it.

BUT. all beaches are crown land up there and if you happen to procure a boat you can pretty much moor anywhere without worrying whos back yard you might be in
 

ali

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It is better not to get news about Canada from right wing US sources, or indeed most Canadian newspapers which are now largely owned by right wing interests and well out of touch with mainstream opinion in Canada. Sadly the right wing narrative on Canada has been seeping into public opinion and now even some Canadians are repeating ill-informed US-centric talking points on their own country. That's the real change that I've seen happen in the past 10 years or so - an ideological shift in how people talk about the country thanks to the growing influence of right wing propagandists.

Canada has its issues, like many developed nations. In particular there is a very real housing crisis that is amongst the worst in the world. But it's a bit over the top to describe the current government as "nazi", especially in a world where we have countries that today are actually being run by nationalist authoritarians.
 

Colinleath

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This man is attempting to further the cause of a borderless world, at least for those who have the means to not be dependent on a given country's welfare system:

Andreas Wil Gerdes -


Andreas Wil Gerdes - Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Wil_Gerdes

he's speaking at



Coming up here pretty soon.

I think he helped sim technology go from being tied to individual cities to being trusted nation wide and then internationally and uses that as a metaphor for what he's trying to enable for people.

He knows in great detail which countries are easiest to become long term residents of and what the process is.

He's not in favor of illegal approaches though he's aware of them.

See his personal history for an example of why.


A point he makes is that everything we do is increasingly tracked and trackable so whatever illegal efforts you make will most likely be discoverable.


At any rate if you want to be free to go many places for long periods of time without risking bureaucratic difficulties--his approach and efforts are relevant.

I think for example he may have had input on how various year long digital nomad visas are implemented.
 

Colinleath

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Other relevant ideas:



The Blockchain people are trying to create systems for Sybil attack-resistant identities.




&

Are examples of this.


There are quite a few people of means who have been trying to create their own new country (or co-opt the governments of small nations) for tax and freedom of travel reasons. Seasteading might be something to look up to investigate that further.
 

sevedemanos

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It is better not to get news about Canada from right wing US sources, or indeed most Canadian newspapers which are now largely owned by right wing interests and well out of touch with mainstream opinion in Canada. Sadly the right wing narrative on Canada has been seeping into public opinion and now even some Canadians are repeating ill-informed US-centric talking points on their own country. That's the real change that I've seen happen in the past 10 years or so - an ideological shift in how people talk about the country thanks to the growing influence of right wing propagandists.

Canada has its issues, like many developed nations. In particular there is a very real housing crisis that is amongst the worst in the world. But it's a bit over the top to describe the current government as "nazi", especially in a world where we have countries that today are actually being run by nationalist authoritarians.

so youre saying they havent been recommending euthanasia to soldiers with ptsd , or…?

honestly id just go to mexico. where people have some humanity left
 

ali

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What Fox News, Breitbart, and the now majority US-owned Postmedia rags like National Post report: Canada is recommending euthanasia to veterans with PTSD! Socialized medicine is a disaster! Trudeau is Canada's Mao! Death panels! Waiting lists! Trans ideology! Bla bla bla.

What actually happened: due to right wing media hysteria, Veterans Affairs have launched an investigation into an incident where one of their employees discussed with one of their clients a legal and uncontroversial procedure that is explicitly designed to preserve a person's dignity and autonomy.

This is a perfect example how news in Canada gets twisted by conservative Americans and reported through the lens of their reactionary values instead of historically more progressive Canadian values. Sadly some right wing Canadians are happy to allow these foreign extremists to speak for them presumably because they see a benefit in cultivating the same kind of populist outrage that has proved politically useful in the US.

If you are interested in less sensationalist reporting on Canadian affairs i suggest The Walrus for New Yorker/Atlantic style long reads, Toronto Star for milquetoast centrist east coast reporting (similar to WaPo/NYT), Globe and Mail for real Canadian right-wing takes (similar to WSJ), or of course the CBC for PBS-style dry but explicitly inclusive stories. All actually Canadian owned and operated outlets. If you want angrier anarchist takes there is Submedia.
 

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You just have to go for it. The reality of this is you're asking about a service provided by the black market. If you need passage out of the USA to another country you'll be doing business with a criminal. A criminal doesn't mean he's a good or bad person. It just means everyone involved knows the law is being broken for profit. If you don't have the means to sneak across or travel there yourself you're seeking a coyote is what I'm saying.

Here is the main problem. Most people are trying to go into to United States. Coyotes aren't advertising these services to US citizens. You're asking for the opposite of what most people seeking those services want. There isn't this big existing network of people set-up to help you get out. They're all concerned about getting people in.

Getting through the borders isn't the main challenge with this either. Once you get to the other side you have to deal with blending in to avoid immigration officers and finding some kind of housing and employment. If you attempt to travel around with a backpack you'll make a target out of yourself. You're effectively baiting every official you past into asking for your passport. If you don't have the passport you're in for a bad time. They're going to want to run your information and find out who you are. You're obviously not a citizen.

I don't like the idea of having to ask permission either. Or paying for the right to leave. The passport thing is getting worse all of the time. You already need it to travel domestically on an airplane. If you want a passport all you have to do is wait. Everyone is getting upgraded to REALID now. The next time you renew your state ID or driver's license you'll get a passport. The ID card will double as a passport at the airport at least.

The easiest way to get out of the USA is crossing either the Canada or Mexico land border. How you go about getting across is your business alone. It isn't that hard. From there you can look into traveling to another destination by whatever means. It'll be easier than obtaining passage without a passport in America. Cash will get things done if you have enough on you. Be careful you're no longer under the police state's protection and at the mercy of whomever has local power.

Given the choice between Mexico and Canada I would choose Mexico. Canada have more surveillance than America does now. It's colder. It's harder to get past their immigration. The only reason I'd go there is if I wanted to travel into Alaska and beyond to Northern Asia. Mexico will have more options if your goal is to travel by sea. There is a lot beyond it in South America where you can probably find a nice place to vanish. It will be easy to blend in somewhere like Brazil or Argentina. There is less worry about local officials sending you back to the states. The local officials are more likely to accept bribes and keep quiet.

If you want to vanish and become someone else now might be the time and your last chance. The security state and surveillance is already overwhelming.
 

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Since we're talking citizenship status I thought I'd bring this up. You can become "stateless" and lots of people have in their attempts to spite the US Government. The problem is when you're "stateless" no one wants to take you in. You don't fall under anyone's jurisdiction. This makes it very complicated when attempting to cross borders or live anywhere on the planet that's partially developed.

Technically if you were born in America you're a citizen of the state you were born in first and also the Federal Government. You can renounce your state citizenship outright for a large fee. But you have to wait for an appointment with a Federal official. They used to schedule your appointment years in advance and make you wait years before you could do it. As of a few years ago they stopped allowing people to schedule all together. This is the process you must go through if your goal is to stop paying taxes to the IRS on earned income outside of the country. Dual citizens of USA living abroad are taxed on their income heavily. Lots of people are interested in doing this because they're sick of being taxed twice. Once by the USA and once by the country they've lived in for decades.

Now if you're willing to get the passport itself there is another way to go about this. You can have your citizenship status changed from "US Citizen" to "US National". This effectively makes you a citizen of the state or territory you were born in but not a citizen of the US Federal Government. This will actually make it easier for you to cross borders. It also comes with many other benefits. But the process of doing it is complicated as shit. You have to fill out the passport application in a certain way. You can never answer "Yes" to a question that asks if you're a US Citizen. It asks you that question over and over again. You have to make it clear that you're a US National.

Once you go through this process you'll get issued a passport ID card that's similar to a driver's license. It doubles as a driver's license within the borders of the USA and will allow you to apply for an international driver's license. You aren't required to pay certain taxes and fines anymore. When police run your information through the database they'll be told not to detain you. You can't commit criminal acts of course but you effectively have diplomatic immunity within the USA. Crazy I know.

I am considering going through this process. I wouldn't apply for a passport otherwise. As soon as I get a chance to do it I'll try and let you know how it worked out. When I first learned about this I thought it was just more Sovereign Citizen bullshit. But I've been researching it for months and everything checks out. There are tons of videos of people on youtube getting pulled over by the cops and being let go. These guys are carrying firearms and everything and getting cut lose. The cops are usually flabbergasted. All of the cops say their computers tell them not to detain the person. One cop was talking about how he'd only seen it before when he pulled over a diplomat. Another said it was the same status that comes up for confidential informants (snitches).

From what I can tell if you go through this process and declare yourself a national you move one peg up the slave ladder.


But I'm not a lawyer. I could link to videos that can explain it better than I can. But I've already vomited on this thread so I'll leave for now. :)
 

PaulG

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@Usagi

Good info. You have definitely added some things I'll have to research. e.g. I was completely unaware of the US National ideas.

I have researched this general scenario so much. Although I don't have a definite plan yet, my research has shown me a couple of things.
One: There is a way to pull this off; although I am not exactly certain what the best course is yet.
Two: If I make even one wrong step, my goose is cooked.

More to come soon.
 

sevedemanos

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What Fox News, Breitbart, and the now majority US-owned Postmedia rags like National Post report: Canada is recommending euthanasia to veterans with PTSD! Socialized medicine is a disaster! Trudeau is Canada's Mao! Death panels! Waiting lists! Trans ideology! Bla bla bla.

What actually happened: due to right wing media hysteria, Veterans Affairs have launched an investigation into an incident where one of their employees discussed with one of their clients a legal and uncontroversial procedure that is explicitly designed to preserve a person's dignity and autonomy.

This is a perfect example how news in Canada gets twisted by conservative Americans and reported through the lens of their reactionary values instead of historically more progressive Canadian values. Sadly some right wing Canadians are happy to allow these foreign extremists to speak for them presumably because they see a benefit in cultivating the same kind of populist outrage that has proved politically useful in the US.

If you are interested in less sensationalist reporting on Canadian affairs i suggest The Walrus for New Yorker/Atlantic style long reads, Toronto Star for milquetoast centrist east coast reporting (similar to WaPo/NYT), Globe and Mail for real Canadian right-wing takes (similar to WSJ), or of course the CBC for PBS-style dry but explicitly inclusive stories. All actually Canadian owned and operated outlets. If you want angrier anarchist takes there is Submedia.

thats cool. thanks for the recommends.

im just repeating things ive heard. i dont follow the news. i dont have the money for subscriptions. barely afford food.

you probably know more about it. thanks for elaborating / setting that straight. i just hear about things like spikes on benches and under overpasses in bc and think like.. Wow, Canada, Thanks.

a few aquaintances that live up there have a lot of negative things to say but theyre all rich and fairly conservative so my perspective is limited and perhaps biased too.
 

Barf

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Ive got a friend that “moved” to Canada for two years to be with the love of her life. They had a kid together and eventually tried to drive across the border. They detained all three of them at the border for a few days. Even though they both had the correct paperwork Jerbear didn’t get to cross the border, effectively tearing this poor family apart.
 

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