Can you make a protective dog less aggressive?

[Pheonix]

I have 2 dogs the momma dog is 4yo German Shepard/wolf mix and 1 year ago she breed with my friends pit bull and I kept 1 boy. They were both fixed in January. Momma dog was a farm dog for the first 2 1/2 years were she only knew 3 humans and didn't meet many other humans. She is very high in pack drive which made her a good farm dog but now that I live in Stockton,CA she has wanted to kill the tweaker neighboors since we got here in oct. I'm about to go rubber tramping and I'm hoping the change in environment will lessen her aggressiveness towards humans. She has been retired from panhandling cause she tries to bite people in the hand when they hand me money. Thankfully they always think she was trying to take the money, stupid humans. But that's what I'm afraid of is stupid humans that don't have any common sense that will run up to an unknown dog and try to pet them. I've been contemplating getting a muzzle and I think only the basket muzzles will truly be bite proof, I would only muzzle her if we were walking in a crowded area. The son is also been getting aggressive but either because he's scared/nervous or backing up momma's aggression. Momma's high in fight drive and son is high in flight drive.

That's all I can think to describe her mentality right now. Anyone have any good ideas on how to make an old defensive pack dog less aggressive? Right now all I can think of is keep her away from humans and muzzle her if she is.

 

[ayyyjayyy]

Call Caesar. Jk. I also have a semi aggressive dog, it makes shit a little difficult sometimes but she is small enough for me to keep under wraps for the most part. A muzzle is the only thing I can think that will help you with the exception of some serious training from a professional unfortunately. I have to over explain to people to keep their distance, even if I've been riding with them for a few days. She typically only has a problem with people who she senses have potential threat. She can smell an animal abuser a thousand miles away. It's crazy. She has bitten people that I have told to stay back (homebums that are drunk idiots and think no, she's cute she must be friendly). I don't discourage that though because if I tell someone to stay back and they continue to approach me they're going to get what is coming to them. She loves children and women fortunately. Never fucked with other similar folk or travelers either. It's weird. She mainly only dislikes sketchy men. Anyway though, just muzzle your girl for her own safety and take her on lots of walks in a semi busy area to get her more accustomed to people being around... No advice other than that. Good luck!

 

[ayyyjayyy]

Oh yeah and when my girl had her pups and I kept one, they seriously fed on each others aggression. They just need to be separated if possible. I couldn't get that behavior to stop and he was like the sweetest most harmless dog ever but when she was around and got aggro he was right beside her going nuts...

 

[ped]

Here's my opinion and what has worked for me pretty well. Certainly no expert though. When it comes to dogs I find there are as many different opinions (usually being pushed as 100% fact) as there are breeds it seems.

It's been my experience working with bullies and hounds that it's merely a matter of patience. You have to keep in mind that any behaviour problems are your fault, within reason. But at the same time dogs are dogs too and you cannot expect perfect obedience either. Nor too many ridiclous expectations. Drop the dominance theory cause that tends to fuck things up really bad....although it makes for good TV. They don't know what you do and do not want so you have to learn how to effectively communicate with them. The classic treat for positive reinforcemnet works. Tell them no and when they stop reward with treats and baby talk. Exercise is very important and cannot be neglected. Off-leash as much as possible in the open. A fenced in yard is a bad substitute for off-leash and exercise in general. I like to find a vacant hiking trail or a body of water to play fetch. It takes mine about 5-8 miles at least once a week and at least 2 miles a day to get her energy levels to normal. Before she was fixed it was almost double that before she quit running circles around me. Obviously you will have to train recall before you do that. I personally never use a leash unless I'm in a place that absolutely requires it and I think I might get fined.

Realize the female is not that big of a problem though as she is predictable and will likely be easy to train. The nervous pitbull mix is very worrisome on the other hand. The most dangerous dogs are insecure dogs and pitbulls or any bully should never naturally be insecure. That's a learned trait and shows constant stress. A mentally healthy pitbull will be obnoxiosly confident but not start shit. And never with people, ever. Pitbulls are highly people oriented. They just won't back down. Especially when fixed.

As for muzzles I don't do it. I had a new vet insist on one and I walked out right then and there. They did it because of pitbull prejudice though as mine will hardly even bite to play tug of war. They didn't even bother to pet her first, just seen her. But I don't have aggression probems either so I've never had to even consider it. If I were you I would avoid places were problems could happen first of all until you put in alot of work with both of them. Then see if one is still needed after 3-6 months.

So;

-rigorous exercise... and you can only achieve that off-leash for the most part. The female came from a farm where she would have had to run open all the time anyway. And Pitbulls are terriers which are super high energy by nature.
-common sense behaviour training with rewards
-patience
-reasonable expectations

Pack theology comes from a basic assumption that dogs evolved from wolves therefore somehwere deep in the midbrain they must still behave as wolves. It's kind of a caricature of evolutionary biology and cognitive neurology. It takes about 3 generations to change the canine genome 1%. Between all canines known there is only a 3% nucleotide variation. There's been a few quite extensive studies of multi-generational ferrell dogs that totally debunk this theory. Not to mention the early domesticated dogs came from wolves that were most certainly not pack oriented anyway. That's why they got domesticated in the first place. They were "lone wolves." But yours is a wolf hybrid so that may be a different story here. But again females are not typically pack leaders in the wild except for unusual circumstances. They do not feel stressed when not running in a pack and they do not see humans as surrogate dogs. You control their food so they look to you as their primary food source, not another dog to be dominated.

 

[ayyyjayyy]

My hound is very stubborn so funny you mention hounds in the mix. She is not fixed and can be very aggressive as I said. I would hate to muzzle her but it would save the stress of me and her from the start. It's always worse when we just get back on the road after a while then she calms down some. Anyway..

 

[ped]

Yeah hounds are notoriously hard headed and territorial. They are so smart they know how to convince you they're dumb.

 

[Pheonix]

Yea, I never really seen the wolf mentality in any of my other dog (mostly pits) but she is the first. He won't be hard cause he just wants to please me, he's easy and he will follow me over his mom.

 

[Sc0ut]

i have experience with wolf dogs (owned 2) and they are naturally pretty aggro. if she has real wolf in her this is a breed problem because she hasnt been bred to be domestic. they are technically still partially feral and thats why they are illegal in lots of places, however there is still hope. socialization in situations that are controlled and comfortable for her will help over time. they also like to range which is why they do well on farms, so a bit of travel might be good for her, however it might not. removing her from her territory could raise her anxiety and cause her to be more defensive. muzzles suck, but so does having to put a dog down because some one else was stupid and approached her when they shouldnt. i had good success combining a muzzle and a clicker (or shakin beer can half full of change) with both of mine. i'd take them out while wearing the muzzle and shake the can or click the clicker if they showed any signs of aggression. dont give up

 

[ped]

I agree a muzzle over a bite anyday. Maybe use one in the mean time when needed while also working with them too. So long as it doesn't become a total shortcut to a serious training effort.

One other thing is that dogs like routine, consistancy and stability. Without it they can become stressed. Mine has it down so much that wakes me up everyday at the same time +/- 10 minutes. She knows walks and feeding the same way. It's kind of remarkable her internal clock.

 

[venusinpisces]

I have to say that I really disagree with the idea that you should have aggressive dogs that bite random strangers roaming around off-leash. It's one thing if you are in a completely isolated area with no people around (as in, not a hiking trail), but if there is any significant chance that a stranger is anywhere in the area, put a leash your dog. I've adopted and/or fostered 1 pit, one timberwolf/shepherd mix and 1 pit/rottweiler mix, two of which came with aggression issues. I've learned that a leash and a muzzle are the only reliable way to both prevent an innocent person from being injured and protect myself from legal repercussions. That said, dogs do best when they are living in the countryside, especially young dogs who need a lot of exercise to prevent their incredible physical energy from turning into aggression. Long daily walks/jogging and supervised socialization are essential for managing aggression. You will also want to pay attention to learn what sets your dog off; common triggers are bicycles, other dogs, and any fast-moving objects. So if you see any of those coming, grab your dog with a quickness. A few seconds can really make the difference between whether or not your dog ends up in the pound, if he or she is a lunger. And keep in mind that a lot of pounds tend not to be too sympathetic towards pits that are considered to be "problem dogs". There is one kind of leash that is very, very useful and this is the kind that has a loop close to the dog's collar.

Being able to grab that loop means that your dog will not be traveling at 70mph before you get the chance to rein him in.
Seriously, this leash is an investment that can get you out of some very difficult situations. The basket muzzle you mentioned is also a great idea. Mine got to the point where she had muzzle-removing down to a science. With the cloth ones it's much easier for them to maneuver out of it. Also, be very cautious if you're going to the Rainbow gathering, especially in A camp, because there are lots of idiots who bring their unleashed aggressive pit bulls and abandon them while they're off shrooming. I brought mine once but it was so annoying to have to chase off other pits constantly that it probably won't be happening again.

 

[Ekstasis]

Ped has great info. The only thing I can add is a muzzle might increase the problem. To tired to type out the reasons sorry, you probably know them already anyway.

They have those collars that fit across the nose/head but aren't muzzles. They require some training for owner/dog not just throw on the dog before a trip. That might be an option instead of a muzzle for quick head control.

Good luck.

I hate having to tell people to stay back from my pit and he just semi-jumps, wiggle, head butts you because he thinks everyone is his best friend.

Below is random babbling about 2 stupid people this month.

I had a lady let her toddler come up to my pit. I warned her, my dog will knock your kid down and I walked farther away. Mom just smiles and lets her little girl walk up. The little girl had a cracker in her hand held out. I made my dog sit, and he tried to grab the cracker that was in his face. Mom looked at me like my pit bull had mauled her kid.

Old man walks up to me with a yorkie. Yorkie gets aggressive with my dog. I pulled my dog back (bad I know) and the man lets his dog get in my dogs face again. My dog growled. Luckily my pit is bossed around by our Chihuahua mix and is patient.

It would suck to lose your dog for other people's stupidity. Be safe!

 

[Pheonix]

That's a pretty nice leash, but found the best way to stop the lunging behavior is a pinch collar. A pinch collar if used properly does not hurt the dog but causes enough of an annoyance to stop the bad behavior.

 

[venusinpisces]

Here is a statement from someone who advocates for the use of pinch collars: "Do NOT use a pinch collar or any other pain-to-neck device (including especially a bark-corrector or remote shock collar) on any dog with an aggression problem. Pain tends to increase aggression. For dog-aggressive dogs, any pain in the neck can trigger the same fight response as would be triggered by being bitten in the neck by the other dog. So use of neck pain to a dog who is dog aggressive is likely to cause the dog to start a fight as a pre-emptive strike under less and less provocation from the other dog. Additionally, if a pinch collar or chain collar is on a dog who is grabbed by the neck by another dog, the grabbing dog may catch and break a tooth on it, which causes great suffering to that dog and great expense to whoever has to pay for a root-canal procedure"
http://www.canismajor.com/dog/prong.html

And here is another, from the Merck veterinary manual: "Almost without exception, physical punishment, including the use of prong collars and electric shock collars, alpha rolls, and dominance downs can make an already aggressive dog worse. Owners should be discouraged from using these techniques."

 

[ped]

I think it's safe to assume he's smart enough not to put anyone in danger. I didn't think I needed to say it. If it's not an option at all maybe a body harness pulling with a bicycle in conjuction with a flirt pole routine. But walking a terrier a half mile next to you is a ridiculous notion of real excersize. Off-leash play isn't simply a matter of getting the energy out, it is also about the critical mental stimulation aspect. Sniffing, investigating, relaxed playing and prey drive all come together. Leashes, especially on working breeds is a new, suburbanite concept. They were never meant for that kind of life. They're specifically bred for hunting and herding in the open. Without the proper management and the constant fear based repression the problem becomes self-perpetuating. The most vicious dogs tend to be the ones tied up or in a kennel all their life. Trails that are definitely vacant are pretty easy to find and know for sure theres no one around (no cars at trailhead and no possible through hiking plus experience). If you're unsure then muzzle just in case. It's just one suggestion anyway and beside the point.

Another question is, is the dog aggressive because of enviromental factors like lack of excersize and structure, or is it innate because of the wolf thing especially? Outside of people reaching towards you and shifty neighbors, do the two show aggression to all people at all times? What about after a month or two of work?

 

[Pheonix]

Out at the farm momma was tied up in a place where see could see all animals or animal houses (goats, pig pen, chicken coop) and it was her job to bark and raise holy hell every time she seen something move and when she did I'd come running out of the house with a rifle ready to defend my livestock from a coon or stray dog. She's not getting as much exercise as she was on the farm. She acts the same towards the neighbors as she did towards the coons and stray dogs so I'm hoping she associates this behavior with being chained up and behaves differently on a leash.

I got a pinch collar to train the son to walk on a leach and it worked great. Mom is not leash trained very well and pulls so I'm gonna use the pinch collar to train her not to pull. She's very strong and tries to lunge when on the chain and barking at something or someone in an attempt to break free. But she acts like it's her job to hold down the fort when she's chained up but when she's on the leash she acts like it's her job to protect me. On the leash she seem less aggressive towards humans as long as they keep their distance.

 

[Shakou]

There's a possibility she may never be 100% okay with strange people, but you can train her to tolerate and control herself in a way where she isn't an immediate threat to people so long as said people don't do anything retarded.

 

[Pheonix]

Yea, she pretty much considers the van her territory now and wants to defend it like the house and farm. When the Nebraska Highway Patrol was walking the drug-sniffing dog around the van she was trying to break the window so she could attack the cop and his dog. I just keep her away from people and tighten up the leash if someone is walking towards us. She has to stay in the van when I'm panhandling cause she barks and growls at every car that stops. But so far on this trip I've been mostly in farming country towns and they just think she's a good dog that's doing her job. I'm more afraid of being in the big liberal cities with animal lovers that assume all dogs are friendly and if they ain't it's because their owner has abused them. The bottom line is that it IS my fault she's aggressive cause I trained her to be a protective farm dog. I've found the I can get her to be nice to someone if I can convince her they are part of the pack.

 

[Ekstasis]

Tightening up on the leash could be signaling to her that she needs to go into protection mode. She senses your stress. I do the same thing when someone stupid comes up to my dog, it's hard not to.