News & Blogs A World Without Rape: Bringing the focus away from punishment

[LeeenPocket]

And I do think that the media, the legal system and the majority of the population (to come back to the article) would agree to. And that is what I meant when I said who even doubts that yes means yes and no means no.

This is the problem. The media, legal system, and majority of the population DON'T doubt that yes means yes. And they DO doubt that no means no. If there's a yes, there's consent. Case closed, no rape. If there's a no, "are you sure you meant it?" This is precisely why 2 out of 3 rapes are unreported. Because at every turn, someone is trying to discredit a victim. Someone is trying to mindfuck a victim into believing their experience wasn't actually rape. "She was wearing slutty clothes, so she must have wanted it. She's had sex with a lot of people, so she must have wanted it. She was wet, so she must have wanted it (or he got hard, so he must have wanted it). They came, so they must have wanted it. She said yes (while intoxicated) so she must have wanted it. She said yes (after he talked her into it) she must have wanted it." This is precisely why only .06% of rapists will ever see jailtime. Because SOMEHOW, the media, legal system, and society doubted their no, or didn't question their yes.

These were the questions asked of Brock Turners rape victim to try and discredit her in ANY way:

"How old are you? How much do you weigh? What did you eat that day? Well what did you have for dinner? Who made dinner? Did you drink with dinner? No, not even water? When did you drink? How much did you drink? What container did you drink out of? Who gave you the drink? How much do you usually drink? Who dropped you off at this party? At what time? But where exactly? What were you wearing? Why were you going to this party? What’d you do when you got there? Are you sure you did that? But what time did you do that? What does this text mean? Who were you texting? When did you urinate? Where did you urinate? With whom did you urinate outside? Was your phone on silent when your sister called? Do you remember silencing it? Really because on page 53 I’d like to point out that you said it was set to ring. Did you drink in college? You said you were a party animal? How many times did you black out? Did you party at frats? Are you serious with your boyfriend? Are you sexually active with him? When did you start dating? Would you ever cheat? Do you have a history of cheating? What do you mean when you said you wanted to reward him? Do you remember what time you woke up? Were you wearing your cardigan? What color was your cardigan? Do you remember any more from that night? No? Okay, we’ll let Brock fill it in."
Because being unconscious was apparently not enough of a no. And because even the chance that she may have said yes (even intoxicated) would make a juror question whether or not it was "actual" rape.

I have to admit I dismissed things that rape victims are directly saying to me,

You're society in this case. Somehow you feel qualified to question and dismiss victim's experiences on the basis that you're right and they're wrong. That. Is. Fucked. You don't get to decide whether a person was raped. You don't get to question the experience of a victim because you're fucking bored and decided to get into an argument on the internet today. This bullshit discussion is a great example of why 27% of victims don't consider their sexual assaults to be "actual" rape. Fuck, in the course of this discussion I even started to question my own rape. I even learned that in my state, my rape doesn't fit the criteria to be an "actual" rape because I was coerced and eventually gave in with a yes. That sure as hell doesn't change the PTSD and trauma that I experienced afterword.


Back to the actual subject of the article, I absolutely love the idea of community based rehabilitation for most rapists. When I was raped, my circle of friends (my community) offered to punish my rapist. We sat around and brainstormed creative punishments all night over a bottle of some kind of organic rhubarb liquor. It was nice. My community made me feel safe and uplifted my spirits at a time of confusion and vulnerability for me. But when it became real and they were all set to enact revenge, I told them not to. I think, mostly because I knew he didn't consider what he did to me rape. I think I was even questioning it at the time. We drove to a secluded area because we actually did want to fool around. But when it got to that point, he told me he didn't have a condom (as he originally assured me, he did). I said no, stop. Instead of stopping, he got on top of me and asked, "do you want me to fuck you?" Again, "no". Again, "do you want me to fuck you?". This same question and answer would continue about 15 more times before I finally just gave in. He finished inside of me, regardless of absolutely no form of birth control and my original reluctance to do it in the first place. When I told him I wasn't on the pill, why would he think that was ok, he told me "well if you get pregnant, I won't be there for you so you better do something". I broke down and finally told my best friend after basically being nonresponsive and uncontrollably crying for a few days. He was ready to kill him. I told him not to. My friends were ready to destroy his life. I told them not to. I just wanted it to go away and stop thinking about it. My friends exiled him without explanation, though he never asked why. I still have a few mutual friends with him. Because they don't know what happened. I'm afraid to tell them because I'm afraid they'll choose him over me. But I never actually considered that he MIGHT realize what he's done. He might be alone with his guilt. He might be dying inside just as much as I am. I never considered that there was any other option to deal with this besides punishment and exile. And that has obviously not helped the situation at all, for me or for him. Even as I type this, dredging up old feelings I've repressed for quite awhile, I'm crying and becoming combative towards the people around me. It's obvious that this trauma is real, regardless of whether or not anyone else considers it an "actual rape" because I consented. But this article has given me a lot to consider. Perhaps now I won't have to live in fear of running into him somewhere. I won't have nightmares of my friends exiling me in favor of my rapist. Perhaps it's possible to create some sort of dialogue within my close community about the experience and "rehabilitate" him, so to speak. Like I said, a lot to consider.

Thank you for sharing this, Hillbilly.

 

[etpyh]

Haha @Hillbilly Castro now you don't even try to say somethign anymore but just rate my posts stupid. Well at least you followed my advice to be silent if you don't have anything to say.

This is the problem. The media, legal system, and majority of the population DON'T doubt that yes means yes. And they DO doubt that no means no. If there's a yes, there's consent. Case closed, no rape. If there's a no, "are you sure you meant it?" This is precisely why 2 out of 3 rapes are unreported.

Either the way rape is approached is radically different in our countries, or we have radically different views of how it is approached. From my experience here I would definitely say that people see a no as no and especially the media is pretty much always on the self proclaimed rape victims side, even if it was proven that the accused rapist was innocent. At least in those rape cases that make it to the media, which aren't many as I have to admit. Where did you get your numbers from, especially that only 0.06% of rapists face jailtime, how do you even calculate such numbers (I am seriously interested)? Especially in the field of sexual delicts, where the number of the false acusations is the highest as far as I know, it seems difficult to me to find out numbers about how many rapes there were and how many rapist are in jail or not. I mean the numbers of false rape accusations in different studies goes from 2%-90%, I am refering to Rumney, P. (2006) False allegations of rape. here.

You're society in this case. Somehow you feel qualified to question and dismiss victim's experiences on the basis that you're right and they're wrong. That. Is. Fucked. You don't get to decide whether a person was raped.

I don't get to decide wether a person is raped and I don't think I do. Neither am I dismissing victims experiences. I am only dismissing their criteria for rape and the arguments they give for it and for my dismissing I bring up arguments, even if people in this thread seem to choose to ignore them. I don't question that you have been raped, I only question the criteria for rape that you brought up, namely the lack of enthusiastic consent.
And questioning the rape criteria rape victims bring up is perfectly fine. Why would getting raped mean that you are from now infallible when it comes to putting out criteria for rape? It just doesn't.
Your arguments against me largely consist of you picking up small parts of my arguments, small parts of sentences even and then using them to make it look like I would represent certain views that I don't, views I even explicitly said I didn't share. While you just choose to ignore large parts of my responses where I was refuting your arguments (enthusiastic consent, the rape culture as a (necessary) source for seeking male attention). You would probably also respond to this post by just quoting something about the false rape accusations, use that to say I would apologize rape and blame victims and continue on your rant, even though things like that are not what I implied and the whole thing wasn't even an argument for my discussed point of view.
But you are kind of right in one point: My boredom played a part in taking part in this discussions (plus the bad arguments and how they were brougt up). And so I guess I might just leave at at this and try to lead my boredom into something more useful and turn my back on this thread and maybe StP for a while. Spring is around the corner, so there is surely something better to do than writing long ass replys to people who don't even seem to try to employ the ideas brought up. If there should come up some good new points in regard to this topic I might rejoin the debate (something that probably noone wants but whatever). If you continue to debate in the matter you did till now my posts earlier still stand. Peace and feminism.

 

[Rob Nothing]

I think it goes back to upbringing.. not just culture. people that enjoy a decent upbringing and adequate support in more formative years are not as prone to peer pressure and drugs and making there personal problems everyone's business ( not to say that rape shouldn't be ) .. Unfortunate fact of the matter is that few people fall under that category.. lota droppin babies on their heads when mammy was tryin to smoke a blunt.. apparently. Lots of crime because lots of idiots. That's the world we live in, and if you want an honest opinion I lean towards required sterilization. People should stop breeding because most of them aren't even capable of taking care of themselves, wherever they're at on the totem pole of "success". I don't think it's any surprise either how popular it is now to be gay.. kinda like nature stepping in and saying 'hey now, we've got enough bullshit already we don't need more of you.'

To steer this post back on topic... I've never raped anybody nor ever known anybody that has but ignorance is not always bliss because I can think of tens of dudes I've met that made me wish there were no justice system.. that it were possible to take justice into ones own hands in this country.

But that's just me.

 

[freegander]

etpyh, you claim to be a feminist. good. if you really are one, you might try listening to females about their experience and asking questions vs. being argumentative. if you really are one, you will recognize that not all sexism is blatant misogyny. so just because you aren't blatantly misogynistic doesn't mean that there is not residual sexist thought still running in your system. this is the approach i try to take when talking about race with people of color, because i know NOTHING about what it is like to be non-white and there are still so many areas of my mind and heart that remain shrouded in racism.

here's something for you to chew on if you're interested in becoming a better feminist:

you say that culture already gives women freedom. my question here is: whose culture?
from the outside looking in, i can understand why you would think this. you've never had to live as a woman, so there are many things you've never had to even think about. you can choose to acknowledge your ignorance or continue to bury your head in the sand.
i've never been stopped when exiting walmart to have someone check my receipt. i didn't even know this was a thing until i talked to some of my friends who are black and they said it happens ALL THE TIME. i could argue that there are no statistics that show that blacks are stopped more often, or i can take my white blinders off and start to empathize. i've chosen the latter more often than not and it is never easy. i will wholeheartedly support you if you choose to do the same.

you say that culture already gives women freedom. some women would agree with you, but again: whose culture? i was raised in a heavily patriarchal religious setting where women wore headcoverings, were not allowed to hold positions of leadership, and were not even allowed to speak in church. it wasn't too long ago that i left that setting and IT CONTINUES TO THIS DAY. when you assume that no one would question QueerCoyotes story, i have to disagree. i know loads of people who would chide her for sleeping on the same surface as a man and would insinuate it is her fault. when you ask "who even questions yes means yes and no means no?" i answer: my family. my community. my culture.

it's hard to have conversations about rape culture, because it is easy to respond with "i live in this culture, but i don't see it, ergo it doesn't exist." it's like a fish that doesn't know what water is because they have gills. men don't see rape culture because they have dicks. unless they're trying to see it or are forced to see it, nothing's gonna change.

(also. if you're actually still participating in this discussion, i would like to ask why you claim the label feminist? very few people that i know are willing to call themselves by the f-word, so i'm just wondering about your logic)

 

[etpyh]

etpyh, you claim to be a feminist. good. if you really are one, you might try listening to females about their experience and asking questions vs. being argumentative. if you really are one, you will recognize that not all sexism is blatant misogyny. so just because you aren't blatantly misogynistic doesn't mean that there is not residual sexist thought still running in your system. this is the approach i try to take when talking about race with people of color, because i know NOTHING about what it is like to be non-white and there are still so many areas of my mind and heart that remain shrouded in racism.

Well it's not like I randomly posted my opinion about rape, rape culture and feminism in than said this is the right and whoever doubts that is wrong. I posted this as a response to a female and gladly hear more opinions from females. I mean after all that is why we are here, communicate with each other. I put my opinion against something someone else posted earlier and am willing to discuss it and change my original opinion if someone, be it female or not, gives me good points for it. But as long as there are no points brought up against my opinion that are actually argumentive points against the reasoning for my opinion I don't see what questions I should ask females. Should I ask females: "Hey I have this opinion about rape, rape culture,... and I would like to know what you think about it?" Yes that seems like a good idea. I should as a matter of fact not even ask females but also males. And that is what I did by voicing my opinion in this thread, even though the question was not explicitly stated. But the answers I got were pretty much only: "Your opinion of rape is wrong and you are sexist." To which I pretty much replied: "Why" and got "Ask some women". Well thank you for this nice discussion we are having.

here's something for you to chew on if you're interested in becoming a better feminist:
you say that culture already gives women freedom. my question here is: whose culture?
[...]
you say that culture already gives women freedom. some women would agree with you, but again: whose culture? i was raised in a heavily patriarchal religious setting where women wore headcoverings, were not allowed to hold positions of leadership, and were not even allowed to speak in church. it wasn't too long ago that i left that setting and IT CONTINUES TO THIS DAY. when you assume that no one would question QueerCoyotes story, i have to disagree. i know loads of people who would chide her for sleeping on the same surface as a man and would insinuate it is her fault. when you ask "who even questions yes means yes and no means no?" i answer: my family. my community. my culture.
[...]
it's hard to have conversations about rape culture, because it is easy to respond with "i live in this culture, but i don't see it, ergo it doesn't exist." it's like a fish that doesn't know what water is because they have gills. men don't see rape culture because they have dicks. unless they're trying to see it or are forced to see it, nothing's gonna change.

(I rearranged parts of your answer because I will adress them all in the next paragraph)
Well "my" culture I am talking about here starts with my family, friends and the people I personally know and than extends to what I would just loosely call "western culture". The further we move away from my family, friends etc. the more vaque and heterogenic this culture gets of course. It is also not questionable that within this "western culture" there are a lot of "subcultures" that don't share the same values etc. I assume the "western culture" to have. So speaking of culture is obviously problematic and a huge simplification. But the author of the article does exactly the same when speaking about society and rape culture, without explicitly stating what culture/society she is referring to. I think this is also unavoidable if we want to talk about rape and what one can do against it on a scale that ranges further than just a few people. If one critizices culture, society or things like that things are of course usually more complicated than just one homogenous culture/society. But I and the author appearantly think it is useful to talk about culture and society in that matter under some circumstances anyways. When participating here I just assumed that our cultures are (as far as possible with the problems mentioned above) comparable enough to make the assumptions and arguments I did. I start to doubt that this is actually the case by now though, partly because of your answer. If your family, your community, your culture can be said to be a appropriate representation for the american culture as a whole (again: as far as one can talk like that) than I would say that my culture can not considered to be as equal to your or the authors culture as I assumed, and I was therefore wrong to do so. But I am pretty sure that there is enough consent about the question wether the sleeping on the same surface make it "her fault", in my (and I think in other european) countries to say that "in my culture" it is not her fault. If you can't say the same about the US I am surprised about the your culture and had a wrong impression of it and, to say it again, was wrong in my assumptions. Maybe my assumptions about "my culture" or "european culture" are just as wrong, who knows. I am willing to change my opinion if presented with appropriate informations, I just can't see it from my personal impressions so far.
Which brings us straight to the last point: "I live in this culture, but I don't see it, ergo it doesn't exist." Yes this is not the best reasoning, but it's not much worse than saying "I have been raped, ergo we live in a rape culture." If we do live in a rape culture show it to me, who (hugely) doesn't see it. This is something you should be able to do and that has been tried at least twice in this thread, once by the guy bringing up porn, an example where I do and did agree that our society normalizes rape. And than a second time by LeeenPocket who wanted to convince me that rape culture was the only explanation for something else. I made an argument against this point that still holds imho and that LeeenPocket choose to ignore. So so far I still think that rape culture (in "my culture") is in huge parts bullshit, to use this (unnecessary) drastic words again.
I think your remark about men not seeing rape culture because they are having dicks is outright sexist and am surprised once again how some people harshly condemn sexism against women but are just as fast with their sexist remarks about men than men are with theirs about women.

i've never been stopped when exiting walmart to have someone check my receipt. i didn't even know this was a thing until i talked to some of my friends who are black and they said it happens ALL THE TIME. i could argue that there are no statistics that show that blacks are stopped more often, or i can take my white blinders off and start to empathize. i've chosen the latter more often than not and it is never easy. i will wholeheartedly support you if you choose to do the same.
[...]
from the outside looking in, i can understand why you would think this. you've never had to live as a woman, so there are many things you've never had to even think about. you can choose to acknowledge your ignorance or continue to bury your head in the sand.
(also. if you're actually still participating in this discussion, i would like to ask why you claim the label feminist? very few people that i know are willing to call themselves by the f-word, so i'm just wondering about your logic)

Yeah sure I don't know (exactly) what it is like to be a woman, or black for that matter. I have no problem with admitting my ignorance on this regard. I don't see why that should be a problem for the arguments/the reasoning I gave though. As I said earlier I don't think it is a valid response in the context of this thread to say I am wrong because I am sexist, or responses in similar matters. Yes I might be sexist. I certainly often act as if I was sexist, and racist too. So does probably everyone else here. But just saying "oh no you are wrong, you are sexist", is of no use at all. You have to point your finger at where my reasoning goes wrong because of my sexism. I mean after all I could be a woman that sincerly believes what I wrote here for all we know. Would that make my arguments any better? Not at all. If you think now, no you could not be a woman and have said what you said, than think about what exactly I could not have said and why not and write it down. Maybe this leads to some interesting points. Probably not because this discussion is so gridlocked but it would be a better approach than just calling me wrong for being a man (blatantly speaking).

Two last notes:
-I don't think that black people don't get stopped more often than whites, I would have even assumed that it is common knowledge that they are. I would probably even stop black people more often than whites myself if I should be made looking for weed for example. I would also stop skateboarders more often and young people more often than old people. How racist that makes me is open to debate, but at least your implied comparison of me not seeing certain aspects of the life of women and me not seeing that blacks are discriminated doesn't hold.

-Last but not least the reason why I answered once again, even though it only takes a minor part in the whole response: The question why I called myself feminist.
The main reason I called me a feminist was that I found it amusing that the other guy said that I was clearly non-feminist as if stating facts while he was just trying to make me look bad because he appearently doesn't have good arguments. I see two possibilities given that feminism is such a vaque term (funny that he accused me of talking about too ambigous points): Either he was referring to his very own account of feminism and just uses it as it would be the right and only one, which would fit to the general behaviour in this thread, or he is talking about the most general account of feminism, which I assume is the point of view that women should have the same rights and possibilities etc. as men. In the first case I can just as good call myself a feminist as he can call me a non-feminist, and in the second case I do consider myself a feminist because I aggree to the mentoined pov and don't see how anything I said here is clearly in conflict with that.

 

[hrobyn13]

It's all the little things like this that make me fall in love with you, MF! We've talked a little bit about my escapades into rape. I've lost count at this point, and I'm sick of people pointing out to me that I should just be grateful that I don't remember most of it. The first time was about 10 with 3 men and being given my first head injury. Here I am still watching whatever sick conversation etpyh is trying to have, along with distancing myself from Brandon because he can't face what happened to me in Indianapolis. It's a beautiful and fucked up world we live in, and I'm glad to have your soul with me on this ride.

 

[hrobyn13]

Well it's not like I randomly posted my opinion about rape, rape culture and feminism in than said this is the right and whoever doubts that is wrong. I posted this as a response to a female and gladly hear more opinions from females. I mean after all that is why we are here, communicate with each other. I put my opinion against something someone else posted earlier and am willing to discuss it and change my original opinion if someone, be it female or not, gives me good points for it. But as long as there are no points brought up against my opinion that are actually argumentive points against the reasoning for my opinion I don't see what questions I should ask females. Should I ask females: "Hey I have this opinion about rape, rape culture,... and I would like to know what you think about it?" Yes that seems like a good idea. I should as a matter of fact not even ask females but also males. And that is what I did by voicing my opinion in this thread, even though the question was not explicitly stated. But the answers I got were pretty much only: "Your opinion of rape is wrong and you are sexist." To which I pretty much replied: "Why" and got "Ask some women". Well thank you for this nice discussion we are having.


(I rearranged parts of your answer because I will adress them all in the next paragraph)
Well "my" culture I am talking about here starts with my family, friends and the people I personally know and than extends to what I would just loosely call "western culture". The further we move away from my family, friends etc. the more vaque and heterogenic this culture gets of course. It is also not questionable that within this "western culture" there are a lot of "subcultures" that don't share the same values etc. I assume the "western culture" to have. So speaking of culture is obviously problematic and a huge simplification. But the author of the article does exactly the same when speaking about society and rape culture, without explicitly stating what culture/society she is referring to. I think this is also unavoidable if we want to talk about rape and what one can do against it on a scale that ranges further than just a few people. If one critizices culture, society or things like that things are of course usually more complicated than just one homogenous culture/society. But I and the author appearantly think it is useful to talk about culture and society in that matter under some circumstances anyways. When participating here I just assumed that our cultures are (as far as possible with the problems mentioned above) comparable enough to make the assumptions and arguments I did. I start to doubt that this is actually the case by now though, partly because of your answer. If your family, your community, your culture can be said to be a appropriate representation for the american culture as a whole (again: as far as one can talk like that) than I would say that my culture can not considered to be as equal to your or the authors culture as I assumed, and I was therefore wrong to do so. But I am pretty sure that there is enough consent about the question wether the sleeping on the same surface make it "her fault", in my (and I think in other european) countries to say that "in my culture" it is not her fault. If you can't say the same about the US I am surprised about the your culture and had a wrong impression of it and, to say it again, was wrong in my assumptions. Maybe my assumptions about "my culture" or "european culture" are just as wrong, who knows. I am willing to change my opinion if presented with appropriate informations, I just can't see it from my personal impressions so far.
Which brings us straight to the last point: "I live in this culture, but I don't see it, ergo it doesn't exist." Yes this is not the best reasoning, but it's not much worse than saying "I have been raped, ergo we live in a rape culture." If we do live in a rape culture show it to me, who (hugely) doesn't see it. This is something you should be able to do and that has been tried at least twice in this thread, once by the guy bringing up porn, an example where I do and did agree that our society normalizes rape. And than a second time by LeeenPocket who wanted to convince me that rape culture was the only explanation for something else. I made an argument against this point that still holds imho and that LeeenPocket choose to ignore. So so far I still think that rape culture (in "my culture") is in huge parts bullshit, to use this (unnecessary) drastic words again.
I think your remark about men not seeing rape culture because they are having dicks is outright sexist and am surprised once again how some people harshly condemn sexism against women but are just as fast with their sexist remarks about men than men are with theirs about women.


Yeah sure I don't know (exactly) what it is like to be a woman, or black for that matter. I have no problem with admitting my ignorance on this regard. I don't see why that should be a problem for the arguments/the reasoning I gave though. As I said earlier I don't think it is a valid response in the context of this thread to say I am wrong because I am sexist, or responses in similar matters. Yes I might be sexist. I certainly often act as if I was sexist, and racist too. So does probably everyone else here. But just saying "oh no you are wrong, you are sexist", is of no use at all. You have to point your finger at where my reasoning goes wrong because of my sexism. I mean after all I could be a woman that sincerly believes what I wrote here for all we know. Would that make my arguments any better? Not at all. If you think now, no you could not be a woman and have said what you said, than think about what exactly I could not have said and why not and write it down. Maybe this leads to some interesting points. Probably not because this discussion is so gridlocked but it would be a better approach than just calling me wrong for being a man (blatantly speaking).

Two last notes:
-I don't think that black people don't get stopped more often than whites, I would have even assumed that it is common knowledge that they are. I would probably even stop black people more often than whites myself if I should be made looking for weed for example. I would also stop skateboarders more often and young people more often than old people. How racist that makes me is open to debate, but at least your implied comparison of me not seeing certain aspects of the life of women and me not seeing that blacks are discriminated doesn't hold.

-Last but not least the reason why I answered once again, even though it only takes a minor part in the whole response: The question why I called myself feminist.
The main reason I called me a feminist was that I found it amusing that the other guy said that I was clearly non-feminist as if stating facts while he was just trying to make me look bad because he appearently doesn't have good arguments. I see two possibilities given that feminism is such a vaque term (funny that he accused me of talking about too ambigous points): Either he was referring to his very own account of feminism and just uses it as it would be the right and only one, which would fit to the general behaviour in this thread, or he is talking about the most general account of feminism, which I assume is the point of view that women should have the same rights and possibilities etc. as men. In the first case I can just as good call myself a feminist as he can call me a non-feminist, and in the second case I do consider myself a feminist because I aggree to the mentoined pov and don't see how anything I said here is clearly in conflict with that.

Told my dad that my sister was molesting me. His response? 'Where did she touch you that made you think you were being molested?' Um, my vagina?? Told a boyfriend I had been molested by my cousin. His response? ' Well, I think that was just your responsibility to protect your body better.' Told a different ex that I was raped in 2014. His response? Called me a slut. Asked me what I was wearing, what I was acting like, how did he know it wasn't just my fault, etc. (I was drugged and gang raped at a druggie squat after being tricked by someone new saying their girlfriend wanted to meet me) Are you serious, man? I remember my mom, newly single, saying with a heavy sigh 'great, now that I'm single, I guess I have to start having sex with people again' When I pointed out (horrified) that she didn't have to have sex with anyone she didn't want to, she laughed and said '*scoff* they'll only buy you dinner so many times until they start expecting something' Do you really not get this, dude? The indoctrination that I had to wade the fuck out of to even know my own self is ridiculous. Recognize that, or remain part of the problem.