@AlienMoose - I am sorry that you have felt attacked / bullied - I genuinely want to have productive discussions with people on this forum - please remember we are only disagreeing over the meaning of a word, it's nothing serious......
this is a great addition to the discussion - but at the same time, it is ...possibly impossible....(I know, great English >_<) to shake the meaning of a word depending on how people want to have it *shrug* does this make sense? sort of like the n word, some folks within the african american demographic decided to start using it as...I dunno community? I can´t say clearly as I don´t belong to the demographic, but I personally believe it´s a reclamation of the slur with elements of a ´piss take (@Willis @roguetrader I know you are British back me up on this) although at the same time, people still use it as a slur and it ,can be, taken as a slur.
In my opinion gypsy will always have a negative connotation of being a shifty scam artist who doesn´t give a fuck about other people. That is just my opinion right, and some other people see it that way as well.
And if someone would want
to basically apropriate the term to glorify something about themselves, I personally would advise them to choose another.
vagrant is also ugly. hobo, rambler, wanderer, free spirit - these i like. hippy is another one that has just been shot to shit completely.
Same with the pirate thing, @iamwhatiam is on point with that - but me personally I get rubbed the wrong way when people wanna call themselves pirates because well pirates are known for even worse shit than gypsies are known for..,....does that make me a stiff PC prick? It depends who you ask. I cant really help that I try to make sense of things in my own way based on my own beliefs
this all fuckin day. @AlienMoose you seem like a cool person, I have enjoyed our couple of PMs for example. I really just want you to know I don´t think anyone is attacking or even judging you as a person, it´s just a discussion over how we see the term Gypsy. it is not at all about who you are or what you are about. please reconsider how you are perceiving this discussion.
But in the UK how do you think the Irish traveller community would take to someone using that term,yknow and outsider(a settled person)?
Maybe some would be offended as that person hasnt known the discrimination and distrust that their community had had to deal with.Same time i'm sure there's plenty that couldnt care less and would just look at you strangely.
Making sense of your own beliefs is fine. Personal beliefs are personal. But this was a post calling out others and critisizing them for THEIR NAME. I'd like to point out that STILL none of you know me, but have demanded answers and "proof".
I do believe this is all a case of people being PC wet blankets. This has been everyone else imposing their opinions on OTHERS. but I'm in the minority, and it does appear that majority rules here.
Y'all won. I changed my username. Not at all because I agree with any of you. If someone wants to call themselves a pirate or whatever, I'm not gonna be the person saying "tsk, tsk". I know I'm a gypsy in my heart and that's what's real. Not the safe space enforcing mob.
@iamwhatiam, @Prophetess333 and @Matt Derrick seem to understand the fluidity of language, the importance of context.... and just not being a wet blanket on other people.
But y'all won. I changed my username, you've all successfully shamed me publicly (rather than just minding your own), so what more do you want? Why do you continue this thread? You won. You got what you want. Another case of internet mobs winning. If it wasn't, no one would have had any problem and this thread wouldn't be necessary. But we're in a day and age where everyone is SO CAREFUL not to offend! not to hurt anyone's feelings!! Safe space people!!
So please, just go celebrate and leave me be.
there is no mob, we are not ganging up - again I apologise I am not here to upset or opress people and neither are the others participating in this discussion....
can I get you a bubble tea ?
can I get you a bubble tea ?
cool - I hope we can get on better in other threads....
It does seem like ganging up imo.
No one seems to care about songs or bands with "Gypsy" in the title.
In the U.K. people are discriminated for being "travellers" those the OP etc speak of derogatorily. There are good & bad in everything. Travellers in U.K. have a movement for equality, as they see so much discrimination.
In the USA we've the same "Travellers" yet in smaller communities. One is in SC, Murphy's something i forget. Apparently some film guy made a movie called "My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding" and received flack.
Being that travellers of Irish/gypsy whatever descent are referred to Travellers here in the U.S. as well as U.K. can make for cultural confusion as there are numerous definitions for Travellers.
Down vote if you want, i get the impression some do that here if it doesn't fit their opinion.
No one seems to care about songs or bands with "Gypsy" in the title.
In the U.K. people are discriminated for being "travellers" those the OP etc speak of derogatorily. There are good & bad in everything. Travellers in U.K. have a movement for equality, as they see so much discrimination.
In the USA we've the same "Travellers" yet in smaller communities. One is in SC, Murphy's something i forget. Apparently some film guy made a movie called "My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding" and received flack.
Being that travellers of Irish/gypsy whatever descent are referred to Travellers here in the U.S. as well as U.K. can make for cultural confusion as there are numerous definitions for Travellers.
Down vote if you want, i get the impression some do that here if it doesn't fit their opinion.
Also i changed my pic as across my Google's, i noticed people on reddit are screenshotting people & events on this site, not good.
Instance in 2017 someone did to mention 60 + dirty kids "coming through" for some convention.
Instance in 2017 someone did to mention 60 + dirty kids "coming through" for some convention.
Yep ...
There are even political parties calling themselves pirates:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party
Another thought ...
What's the point categorizing people in the first place?
Everyone is an individual person.
Okay, to some extends you can categorize. I would describe myself as Cis Male, citizen of Germany and (when I work) Software Developer. Because that is what I am (sex, where I was born, what I do when I'm working). That's easy and simple.
But otherwise? Punk, Vagabond, Squatter, Homeless, Houseless, Beggar, Busker, Yuppie, Asshole, Mentally ill, Metalhead, Intellectual, ...
A bit of everything perhaps. But I would never call myself a single one of those words.
I remember a discussion about who is a real hacker (computer related). The bottom line was a real hacker is someone who is called a hacker by people who know what it is. Not self-proclaimed.
I'm not a $whatever.
I am me. Nothing more, nothing less.
What's the point categorizing people in the first place?
Everyone is an individual person.
Okay, to some extends you can categorize. I would describe myself as Cis Male, citizen of Germany and (when I work) Software Developer. Because that is what I am (sex, where I was born, what I do when I'm working). That's easy and simple.
But otherwise? Punk, Vagabond, Squatter, Homeless, Houseless, Beggar, Busker, Yuppie, Asshole, Mentally ill, Metalhead, Intellectual, ...
A bit of everything perhaps. But I would never call myself a single one of those words.
I remember a discussion about who is a real hacker (computer related). The bottom line was a real hacker is someone who is called a hacker by people who know what it is. Not self-proclaimed.
I'm not a $whatever.
I am me. Nothing more, nothing less.
it's nothing to do with having a 'safe space', it is more a question of personal taste. like, i can't help but think someone who claims themselves as a gypsy is, well, about extra shit. what good can come from claiming that label? anyway i know I may be beating a dead horse at this point
if you hear a name and choose to associate it with "shit", that's your problem. I don't know why I'd associate a name or title or culture with "Shit". that's pretty negative. I know Tumblr is generally a terrible example but look at the Tumblr tag for "gypsy". yeah you'll see the occasional SJW ranting but it's generally Fleetwood Mac, VW buses, pretty jewelery and dresses. So it doesn't look to me that people using gypsy the way I am are using it negatively as compared to some people who just see "shit".
i don't simply see "shit" everywhere, or 'just' see shit. this is the thing, shit is what shit is - for me, same way as for most or all people, in theory. i can't say i am 100% negative for simply disliking one term.
granted it is my problem or task to see whatever term in a negative light, it is as well my prerogative. I think it would be undermining to my own consciousness to concede to someone else's opinion i disagree with by way of the simpl concern of not being that super negative guy - because i think i am balanced enough. I can't trumpet literally everything as positive, at this point in time
i dont know if ive ever looked at tumblr
granted it is my problem or task to see whatever term in a negative light, it is as well my prerogative. I think it would be undermining to my own consciousness to concede to someone else's opinion i disagree with by way of the simpl concern of not being that super negative guy - because i think i am balanced enough. I can't trumpet literally everything as positive, at this point in time
i dont know if ive ever looked at tumblr
First off, the term Gypsies comes from spain, when there was an influx of north-east africans and some nomads came around, people didnt knew where they came from and asumed they where egiptians, so they called them whatever was the term back then in old spanish.. something like egiptano, which ended up sounding more like gitano (gypsy in spanish).
Second, i've been in so many different places and ive met so many different types of gypsies that to think of labeling under one term like romani is absurd, much worse to think you can assume what they are about in terms of personality or lifestyle.
I have met the kind that OP comlpains about. I found them mostly in northern european countries, where some families (big families, as in multiple nuclear families clustered into one based on last name) gather to get as much money out as they can and presumably send it back to whatever balkan country they usually come from. But i have also been in the balkans, where they are more established and accepted and seen them farming and living pseudo normal lives, specially in greece. I particularly enjoyed the company of spanish gitanos, lived among them and count some of them among my friends and will disagree to any broad generalization about gypsyes based on my experience.
Its true that some of the families, the more traditional types do some really fucked up things when it comes to kids and women, but that shouldnt be applied to all, as there are smaller families that fall outside that shit or even individuals that do their own thing.
As of the fuckedupness, consider they where forced out of their original land long ago and been rejected in every single society they've set a foot on ever since, so while i might disagree with some of the ways they handle family and business, I wouldnt be so fast at judging them. Also, I kinda like that there's a large fringe group fucking up rich societies in everyway they can.
Second, i've been in so many different places and ive met so many different types of gypsies that to think of labeling under one term like romani is absurd, much worse to think you can assume what they are about in terms of personality or lifestyle.
I have met the kind that OP comlpains about. I found them mostly in northern european countries, where some families (big families, as in multiple nuclear families clustered into one based on last name) gather to get as much money out as they can and presumably send it back to whatever balkan country they usually come from. But i have also been in the balkans, where they are more established and accepted and seen them farming and living pseudo normal lives, specially in greece. I particularly enjoyed the company of spanish gitanos, lived among them and count some of them among my friends and will disagree to any broad generalization about gypsyes based on my experience.
Its true that some of the families, the more traditional types do some really fucked up things when it comes to kids and women, but that shouldnt be applied to all, as there are smaller families that fall outside that shit or even individuals that do their own thing.
As of the fuckedupness, consider they where forced out of their original land long ago and been rejected in every single society they've set a foot on ever since, so while i might disagree with some of the ways they handle family and business, I wouldnt be so fast at judging them. Also, I kinda like that there's a large fringe group fucking up rich societies in everyway they can.
So all this discussion led me to do a great deal or research and reading. I'm really glad; I learned a lot. Learned that culture is not isolated, nobody owns it, and there's a big difference between appropriation and appreciation.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/thezenpagan/2015/09/there-is-no-such-thing-as-cultural-appropriation/
"This is how human cultures grow and improve. We learn from each other, we adopt best practices from other tribes. To confuse this with theft is not merely wrong, it actively holds back progress."
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/thezenpagan/2015/10/the-cultural-appropriation-controversy-a-summary/
"We need to understand that while someone may genuinely and honestly feel offended, that does not mean that an actual offense has been committed against them."
https://steemit.com/cultural/@liberty.news/cultural-appropriation-doesn-t-exist
"Social Justice Warriors are rebels without a cause. When they are not busy disrupting speeches from people whose ideas they disagree with, they are busy virtue signalling people – or as the French say, “looking for lice.”
One such louse is “cultural appropriation.” Whenever someone – usually a white person – dresses, acts or does anything usually not associated with their “culture”, they are publicly shamed and are asked to make amends.
There is a major problem with this mentality: there is no such thing as cultural appropriation since it is not owned by anyone."
"If we were to push de SJW’s logic to its end, then life would be both boring and difficult. More than half the words of the English language would disappear since they don’t originate from the old Anglo-Saxon dialects – words like jewel, warrior, budget, democracy, republic, etc. Modern printing would have to disappear, since Gutenberg very likely took his idea from the Chinese. Writing, for that matter, would also disappear for anyone not born in Mesopotamia (ancient Iraq-Iran region). And so would the wheel, clothes, houses, agriculture, mathematics – in short, anything not invented by “your people.”
I've received words of support in PMs by various users, discussed this at length with friends and family, and I did research. I'm really relieved and feel like I don't need to worry anymore. I recognize and respect roma culture, and I also realize language is fluid, and this thread is just splitting hairs. So asap I'll be changing my name back to what it's supposed to be.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/thezenpagan/2015/09/there-is-no-such-thing-as-cultural-appropriation/
"This is how human cultures grow and improve. We learn from each other, we adopt best practices from other tribes. To confuse this with theft is not merely wrong, it actively holds back progress."
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/thezenpagan/2015/10/the-cultural-appropriation-controversy-a-summary/
"We need to understand that while someone may genuinely and honestly feel offended, that does not mean that an actual offense has been committed against them."
https://steemit.com/cultural/@liberty.news/cultural-appropriation-doesn-t-exist
"Social Justice Warriors are rebels without a cause. When they are not busy disrupting speeches from people whose ideas they disagree with, they are busy virtue signalling people – or as the French say, “looking for lice.”
One such louse is “cultural appropriation.” Whenever someone – usually a white person – dresses, acts or does anything usually not associated with their “culture”, they are publicly shamed and are asked to make amends.
There is a major problem with this mentality: there is no such thing as cultural appropriation since it is not owned by anyone."
"If we were to push de SJW’s logic to its end, then life would be both boring and difficult. More than half the words of the English language would disappear since they don’t originate from the old Anglo-Saxon dialects – words like jewel, warrior, budget, democracy, republic, etc. Modern printing would have to disappear, since Gutenberg very likely took his idea from the Chinese. Writing, for that matter, would also disappear for anyone not born in Mesopotamia (ancient Iraq-Iran region). And so would the wheel, clothes, houses, agriculture, mathematics – in short, anything not invented by “your people.”
I've received words of support in PMs by various users, discussed this at length with friends and family, and I did research. I'm really relieved and feel like I don't need to worry anymore. I recognize and respect roma culture, and I also realize language is fluid, and this thread is just splitting hairs. So asap I'll be changing my name back to what it's supposed to be.
yes but not matter how gypsy-like you may feel inside you cannot change your ethnicity - I fully support your 'right' to express yourself in any way you feel but you will never be a 'real' gypsy unless you are a true born Romani ! but yeah please call yourself whatever makes you happy....
this reminds me of my final course required for my B.A. in Spanish. the very first day there was a question (rough translation) What does it mean to be Hispanic? (iirc Que es la Hispanidad?)
i had a very unpopular opinion that day. Basically, you're either born Hispanic or you are never Hispanic. the rest of the class and the professor all disagreed -that you can BECOME Hispanic and that it is a cultural thing not an ethnic thing. Boy if that idea doesn't epitomize liberal arts I dunno what does! So here I think this draws a parallel.
So just for an extreme example, say I marry a Colombian woman, reproduce with her and live/work the rest of my life in Colombia. Great......but I doubt if that were to happen say...next week...and I lived for 35 or 40 years...here I am at 63 or 68 year old @roughdraft a citizen of Colombia...that I'd start to call myself Hispanic because what is the point? It would be a big pile of cringe, in my opinion! Yes it would be more APPROPRIATION than APPRECIATION because the appreciation is implied without labelling myself....so most importantly.....it would be a label without a purpose, accomplishing nothing....all my neighbors, my children my wife etc at that point know me as the expat gringo *still*... but that would not be a *bad thing*....i wouldnt need to *call* myself *Hispanic* in order to show my value and appreciation for the, in this example, Colombian culture.
And especially a line I draw is I would never say La la la I am Hispanic! or name myself i.e. HispanicTravelingBeardyGuy on an online forum for example.
all in good fun and in the sport of debate *fingers crossed* Of course we are all entitled to our opinions
i had a very unpopular opinion that day. Basically, you're either born Hispanic or you are never Hispanic. the rest of the class and the professor all disagreed -that you can BECOME Hispanic and that it is a cultural thing not an ethnic thing. Boy if that idea doesn't epitomize liberal arts I dunno what does! So here I think this draws a parallel.
So just for an extreme example, say I marry a Colombian woman, reproduce with her and live/work the rest of my life in Colombia. Great......but I doubt if that were to happen say...next week...and I lived for 35 or 40 years...here I am at 63 or 68 year old @roughdraft a citizen of Colombia...that I'd start to call myself Hispanic because what is the point? It would be a big pile of cringe, in my opinion! Yes it would be more APPROPRIATION than APPRECIATION because the appreciation is implied without labelling myself....so most importantly.....it would be a label without a purpose, accomplishing nothing....all my neighbors, my children my wife etc at that point know me as the expat gringo *still*... but that would not be a *bad thing*....i wouldnt need to *call* myself *Hispanic* in order to show my value and appreciation for the, in this example, Colombian culture.
And especially a line I draw is I would never say La la la I am Hispanic! or name myself i.e. HispanicTravelingBeardyGuy on an online forum for example.
all in good fun and in the sport of debate *fingers crossed* Of course we are all entitled to our opinions
Last edited: