# Minimalism vs. epicureanism: How much is 'too much



## Mankini

Does that mean we are all supposed to be extreme minimalists? a la Diogenes? Or should we seek ways to make our travels as luxurious as we possibly can? Where's the happy medium?


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## Odin

Diogenes had it made. All he had to do was tell Alexander to stop blocking the sunshine. 

Today take up residence on the street and the boys in blue just may take up a baton to pummel and break you.









MY Advice Voodoo is be as Crafty a fellow as you can be. ::drinkingbuddy::
Enjoy simplicity for simplicities sake... and revel in excess when opportunity presents itself. For our time on this earthly sphere is short, we are as dust in the wind and seasons don't fear the reaper. 


:ldman::


wtf...


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## Matt Derrick

i picked up this kid from stp in my school bus in oklahoma and all he would spange for is red bull and jagermister. if you're just absolutely having a hankerin' i understand, but it wasn't about that, he was just too good for anything else (the rest of us just wanted 10 bucks for damn 12 pack of beast). 

so this might seem really arbitrary, but if you're gonna spange, it should be for things you _need_, not things you want. or, if it's something you want (beer) make it reasonable. you're mooching off the backs of the (most commonly) middle class, so have some damn respect. someone worked really hard doing a job they probably hated so you could drink jager bombs? no, i don't think so.

we ended taking off in the bus while he was flying a sign for jager bombs at walmart in denver. first time i ever ditched someone, but I didn't feel very bad about it. also, his dad wouldn't stop calling my damn phone...

anyways, not sure if this fits in with what you're trying to discuss, but it's what i thought of when i read your post.


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## Matt Derrick

i keep looking at the title of you thread and i'm sorry but it reads like an accusation. did you have some recent experience on stp to trigger this kind of question?


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## Mankini

Oh no not at all. Just discovered Diogenes last night and was contemplating the nature of minimalism and also its opposite, epicureanism...I don't own much: pretty much everything I own is in my bag. And generally all that's in there I absolutely need. It was hammered home when I lost it temporarily and security rifled through it and stole my zippo, hammock, spork, frying pan, instant coffee, and other stuff.  Hence, what is need/what is want.

And, while I'm perfectly happy in hostels, if somehow I could afford a penthouse at the Waldorf you bet yer britches I'd be there in a heartbeat. And while I love all-you-can-eat buffets, and Guinness, if offered an 18 oz steak and a 6 pack of Chimay Trippel, again, I'd leave the strip mall far behind.
So, what is minimalism Matt? Why do we strive for it?

PS Hilarious!! That guy in OK. I'm sure he wasn't even satisfied with Jager Bombs and would have preferred Veuve Clicquot. Alas, Oklahoma is not Paris. LMBO


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## Kim Chee

Confusing title mod can make it a new name if you like.


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## Mankini

Yes, maybe "Minimalism vs. epicureanism: How much is 'too much'?"


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## Kim Chee

I can tell you plenty about minimalism...more than most here even. I've also lived well, not tons of cash, but money in the bank with more coming in. Before I lived poor, I had cash and after I was poor, I once again have cash. My present financial situation could change at any time. 

Hopefully, you continue to ask yourself about these ways as well as others throughout your life. 

If you have specific questions about minimalism, fire away...I have lots of answers from my perspective, each person is different and all things are subject to interpretation.


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## Mankini

For me, minimalism is an aesthetic. Its like a game to see how ultra-lite, streamlined, and hassle-free my life can be. However, when something is quick, and easy, but also expensive, I'll take that in lieu of the cheaper, less convenient alternative. As for the pleasure to pain ratio, and the ethics involved, who knows?

Heres a question for ya: Are gluttony and greed sins? Against oneself? Or only when directed to hurt others?


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## Kim Chee

For me, minimalism was all about sacrifice. I voluntarily did without many things. Much of this had to do with eliminating distractions, much had to do with testing my own limits of what I really need. Today, I have a more clear understanding of needs versus wants than I ever did. 

If you want to challenge yourself, try temporarily doing without something every person needs to survive (food). Even skipping a meal is a good start, work yourself up to a whole day if you haven't taxed yourself physically, maybe more if you feel good. If you're really hard headed, next time you're in jail, sit there and see what happens. I've had milkshakes and great big hamburgers offered just to try to entice me. Keep it up long enough and you'll end up in the psych ward where they'll threaten to force feed you if you don't eat (meds too). 

Yep, the man will only let you be so bad ass.

He's such a pussy.


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## Desperado Deluxe

I walk into hiking stores like rei and the like and I think damn that backpack would rip in a couple weeks. And damn that cooking gear would burn through after a few good uses. So I generally find that cheap shit works better for me than the expensive stuff. We are those people that make do with what we got. And for some of us, we can get those fancy things. Do I have a problem with it? No. I find that this is that way I do it. This way is my life. Does that mean I have to live outside forever? No.
When I talk to fancy backpackers out for the weekend I still find I have things in common with them even though we roll totally different. It doesn't matter what you do. I think this site is a means to express your freedom as an individual. We started as a subculture and were growing to a more social norm where almost anyone can take a part in this type of lifestyle. Its about what you do and how you do it and were here to listen and yack about it.


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## Mankini

For me, I wanted to know what 'true' freedom really is. So I left a comfortable small town where I have connections and family and went to the most extravagantly exclusive communities in the US: Aspen, Marin, the Hamptons...It appealed to my warped sense of humor to be homeless around billionaires-literally sleeping in their backyards. Awesomely enough, I found work, money, and companionship in Aspen and Marin: I wasn't in Long Island long enough to meet anyone.. But I love conducting social experiments.

PS Fox Spirit. Yeah. Good gear is awesome to have. But guess what? It gets stolen, lost, damaged....so whats the point? I have lost 3 Swiss army knives to airport security in the past 4 years.  It doesn't pay to get attached to stuff-maybe Buddhists know something about that after all. ???...

PS 7xMichael: I have found that the only thing that I absolutely cannot do without is love. Food, water, warmth, sleep, cigs and coffee are up there as far as priorities go but love is essential. The body can wait on most things.


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## Andrea Van Scoyoc

@Matt Derrick ...

Loved your post. I would have ditched him, too.

Brings to mind that awesome "entitlement" rant a while back, that I enjoyed so much.

My neighbor will spange for beer, but like you, he will be honest and he just wants beer...not Dom.



I'll stop now before I get going about entitlement...my mother told me a spange story that happened to her and gets my hackles up, every time I think about it.

::soapbox::


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## Odin

voodoochile76 said:


> Are gluttony and greed sins?



I'm trying to refresh and catch up on this now... reading Diogenes again and Epicurean thought.

So gluttony and greed. Is it a sin. For us humans? That is arguable. As we have an intellect we supposedly can use to rise above those "flaws", societal norm's will place pressure on the individual to conform.

Yet, food for thought... since I just watched this the other day interestingly...I want to give you an interesting example in nature.

A fox. Watched this on a David Attenbourough special on mammals.
A fox... breaking into a hen coop.
Fox's have a reputation they say for being wanton killers I suppose.
So you may think it would kill a couple hens carry them off and feed.
Not in this case. The documentary records while the fox decimates the entire hen house (it seems) and is shown making multiple trips back and forth.

The catch. (no pun intended)

He is burying all of his kills. Hoarding it would seem... yet is it.

Is this greed and gluttony? Observed in nature?

I know I have perhaps not always accurately and maybe in a whimsical fashion, have thought to myself that nature is a thing of beauty and harmony.

So if this action is justified on a level of instinctual beast behavior with no civilization, no societal norms, the only pressure is that to survive and to survive as comfortably as possible.
If the fox will do it, is it a surprise that humans will behave the same way given the chance?

Ol' David Att narrates the special and goes on to claim, "The fox is not a wanton killer but an intelligent opportunist."

So much more is a human an intelligent opportunist?
Same as in greed and gluttony. Someone may seem like a hoarder and that is of little consequence when the group/society is prospering. Yet in the event of a zombie Apocalypse? Who laughs last?

Of course we all can make our choices. A person can choose to be a minimalist. For various reasons, the spiritual being one of the classic ones. As you could see in the example of ascetic holy men and guru's who practice self flagellation and celibacy... living off the charity of those with fortune. These paths are paths of the mind so are in themselves often unique.

Yet is it a sin for one on the path of survival to exhibit greed and gluttony.

...

I suppose that those terms could both be thrown out. The true survivor knows when to share... when to conserve and when to pounce on opportunity.

Just like the fox in the hen coop. Perhaps Greed and Gluttony... are illusions. Simply temporal qualities that last so long as one is in surplus and soon dissipates like the morning fog of harsh reality with the hot sun breaking through on a parched grassy Savannah.

And soon you find your self on the prowl once again for your next cache of chickens. Only this time lesson learned and you are no longer a fox.

But a foxy LION. And all shall hear you ROAR.


...

..

.


(okay I kinda lost it there at the end. but if you don't have a clue of what I speak. So what.)

PS: I'm not arguing for greed and gluttony. Humanity I still believe can be better than that...


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## Desperado Deluxe

It sounds like your doing a pretty good job. Its a remarkable feeling to go from not having jack squat. To just having a little something. Feels like being on top of the world. I was in GA recently and I went from broke as fuck just got outta jail stuck on probo to having a place to live and a job in the cafe circuit and I felt so much better to be doing something. Now it feels like I always have a place to go and something to do. And if I want to go back to doing nothing waderlust I can drop it all and do it. But now I'm stuck between both. I'm back in ca travelling outta my pack and on my way to my dads house in norcal for my grandmothers memorial. He's going to hook me up with some work and I haven't figured out what to do from there. Maybe the dirty kid jamboree?


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## Mankini

The best thing is to have someone to share the bounty with. A man drinking Dom alone is a pathetic sight. Better to share a 30-pk of PBR with friends than to sit, wasting money with no one who cares about you.


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## Durp

Great thread! I like to be comfortable these days. I was all into minimalism a few years ago, but it is so easy to be comfortable if you are creative. A couple of my buddies like the term "bum rich", pos cheap trailer rebuilt, pos truck, a beautiful lady, 6mon propane, and several months of costco food stashed. Now I am living out of a vw golf, because I felt too spoiled and I like to tinker on diesel engines. Ill get board of this and all the great camping and probably move onto the boat I've been working on fixing up in a month or so. After a while I'm sure ill get sick of constant motion of a boat and move to the desert to eat a lot of random substances and live in a lean to. It is all about what makes you happy. My main reason for having more than a pack is because I like keeping my lady around gigdy gigdy


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## PrisMiQue

When I was living out of my backpack I really liked the simplicity and minimalist lifestyle. Now that I have acquired more material (as I'm waiting to get get off probation ) I know that it's all nice but these objects don't leave me with experiences or memories. The time I spent traveling with nothing but what's on my back gave me more life and joy then a pair of stilettos. Although I do like to dress up, which makes me a misfit in both worlds. 
So the label isnt for me... 
I do believe everyone should practice minimalism at least once in their lives... But many don't and won't. 
I tried going camping with my bf...he's never been traveling like us. It was really hard to find a spot cuz he wasn't comfortable just finding a one That wasn't a designated camping ground. I could tell he thought I was even crazier because i really wanted to go camping instead of a hotel room. I can't help but still be that little dirty traveler, I need that minimalistic living in my life to keep me rooted all this Hollywood glitter lifestyle won't ever change that.


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## PrisMiQue

Fox Spirit said:


> It sounds like your doing a pretty good job. Its a remarkable feeling to go from not having jack squat. To just having a little something. Feels like being on top of the world. I was in GA recently and I went from broke as fuck just got outta jail stuck on probo to having a place to live and a job in the cafe circuit and I felt so much better to be doing something. Now it feels like I always have a place to go and something to do. And if I want to go back to doing nothing waderlust I can drop it all and do it. But now I'm stuck between both. I'm back in ca travelling outta my pack and on my way to my dads house in norcal for my grandmothers memorial. He's going to hook me up with some work and I haven't figured out what to do from there. Maybe the dirty kid jamboree?


Glad you're going to make it to the memorial and to see your family. Hope you get there safely.


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## Mankini

Well then. How can we achieve 'Hobo Chic" and do it in style? I have found that a hammock alleviates a lot of the problems involved in stealth camping, urban or otherwise. Snow on the ground? -Not an issue. Wet? Who cares. Animals can be pesky, especially slugs, spiders, and snails, skunks and raccoons. But a hammock gets you up and out of the way of all of them. Also I used to go to thrift stores and get a sport coat and tie, then infiltrate hotel breakfasts, wedding parties, and other social settings where I otherwise wouldn't be welcome.


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## lone wolf

i have a general rule, if i can get by without it for 1 week then i don't need it. although when it comes to my tools and spare parts i throw that rule out the window. RovingAnarchist mentioned a tool library in another thread. now that's a genius idea.


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## Desperado Deluxe

voodoochile76 said:


> Also I used to go to thrift stores and get a sport coat and tie, then infiltrate hotel breakfasts, wedding parties, and other social settings where I otherwise wouldn't be welcome.



Hellz ya that's what my columbia windbreaker is for. Good social camoflauge rolls up to a tiny little thing. Before I had a stearns pretty much the same thing. Nobody looks at you twice with one of those and its warm to boot.


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## Desperado Deluxe

PrettyMissQueen said:


> Glad you're going to make it to the memorial and to see your family. Hope you get there safely.


Thanks was thinkin bout stoppin by but I didn't want to stir up any horseshit. Hope you do well with your probo its a pain in the ass. Just keep your sights forward.


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## soodoenim

When I was doing my heaviest traveling, I tended to hitchhike with about 75 pounds of gear in my pack. I had a hammock, army issue cammo bivvy, two person tent, two wool blankets and a sleeping bag. My thinking at the time was to have a home in my backpack, so that when I found a nice patch of woods somewhere, I could build a cozy campsite and stay put for a few weeks or more. In retrospect, it was clearly a bit much. Still though, there's something to be said for having your own private world in your pack so you can feel at home wherever you go.

Also, I didn't drink or smoke or anything back then, so i did t spange, and any money I did accumulate went into securing wool socks and solid footwear.


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## Mankini

I used to use a large ALICE and other GI surplus. But now I'm trying to fit everything in a 30L pack. It's a challenge and definitely a work in progress. Because, like you said, what do you do when temps drop unexpectedly and heavy rainfall, when all you have is a measly poncho liner and a tarp? ...Comfort is the difference between a pleasurable experience and a nightmare. ...There has to be a way to achieve both ultralite -and- comfort.


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## Anagor

For some reason I like the basic, minimalistic lifestyle. If you look at my current avatar, that was how I went to England last month. Old German army backpack, a very simple sleeping pad, a 20 years old sleeping bag (but a good one) and a small backpack (served me as daypack and to put my notebook in when I wasn't a hostel) I bought in Bristol for 8 quid.

I had with me (including what I wore) 3 t-shirts, 3 hoodies and 3 pairs of pants and I found it to be too much. I wore my ripped jeans and one tee and hoodie most of the time anyway.

Even when I could afford it, I almost never had a beer in a pub. I like to just get a can somewhere and sit on the streets. I never had dinner at a restaurant, I just got something from a fast food and ate it while walking. Or got a can of tuna from Aldi, went around the corner, threw my jacket on the ground to sit upon and ate the tuna right out of the can.

Why? I don't know. I just had the freedom to do what I want and I did that.

I couldn't care less if my shoes are broken as long as they don't give me blisters. I couldn't care less if my pants are ripped as long as they still fulfill their function. I couldn't care less if I have to sleep rough as long as I don't feel frightened the place I am.

I don't know why that is that way, sometimes I'm quite confused about it myself.

Off-topic: next time I'll try to bring a black jacket with me. My white one was so dirty as I came back home, I felt a little embarrassed ...


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## Mankini

Theres much to be said for minimalism. Although I have to admit, for most of my life I was a rubber tramp, and that particular style is my favorite, mostly because your mobility is increased 100 fold...and you can lock the doors at nite.


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## Durp

plus you can keep a loaded 12ga zip gun under the bench\bed, just incase some one tries to break thru the door


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## Mankini

sks. more reliable.


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## Durp

haha yup, but a zip can be made for free!!!! and when trucking cross state line easily be concealed in plain sight as a pipe. Im just talking shit, guns are an unessicary liability if you are traveling IMHO, altho boom sticks sure are fun to play with in the desert! (or any where really)


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## Mankini

That's true. They can be a liability...good for pawn collateral.  Frikkin ammo's too expensive nowadays, too.


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