# We need more appalachian old-time musicians!



## Crocodile

There's a lot of kids out there who play jug band songs on ukulele, and there's plenty of kids who strum banjos and pull accordions. And that's great. But, where are all the clawhammer banjo players and old-time fiddlers out there? That's what I play and I have a hard time finding many who can play with me some crooked, hard-driving old-time fiddle tunes. 

Anyone on here play that kind of thing?

Anyone interested in playing that kind of thing? If so, check out The Carolina Chocolate Drops, Bruce Molsky, The Freight Hoppers, The Foghorn String Band, Tommy Jarrell.


----------



## moe

stringbean! hah don't know. but yeah, i'm down with that kinda music and don't hear it too often. i played violin, and fucked around with fiddles. you're the dude i saw at some acoustic folk punk show in some chi burbs, along while ago too, btw.


----------



## coolguyeagle76'

sometimes that style is too contrived, im all for reinvention and revolution in music, i dont want to see a museum of a band playing dress up with tired uninspired old tunes cause tourist like em.


----------



## panik

I like the carolina chocolate drops a lot...read about them in some local paper in NC.


----------



## Crocodile

coolguyeagle76' said:


> sometimes that style is too contrived, im all for reinvention and revolution in music, i dont want to see a museum of a band playing dress up with tired uninspired old tunes cause tourist like em.


 
It certainly can be, but it doesn't have to be super old-fashioned. Look at The Carolina Chocolate Drops or Black Death All-Stars. They're sort of within the old-time genre but they do things that step outside the tradition of it. 

I really like playing and listening to that stuff because structurally speaking, it's very different from contemporary music. So you have to think a little bit more, feel a bit more when you play it. I write my own songs with clawhammer technique, but I strive to make sure that it doesn't sound just like a rehashing of any old-time fiddle tunes. It's just like any other folk style; you can stick to tradition or you can break it. I don't give a fuck whether I sound just like your West Virginia grandpa (though I do think the really traditional stuff sounds fucking awesome); I care whether I'm feeling the music or not.


----------



## Crocodile

I don't think originality or revolution really exists in any form of music or art or though. Most of the most seemingly ingenious artists drew from influences that other people didn't necessarily have. But when an outside group encounters such an artist, they see them as an example of a highly individualized genius who came up with their concepts just from themselves. Really, when it comes down to it, we all draw inspiration from movements and not much more. So really, it doesn't matter how old the style is, because it's just another movement that you can pick apart and turn into something new. That's where the true individual creative impetus comes in; in the combination of different attitudes, techniques, and styles. It becomes meaningful when it reflects a sentiment that many people feel deep below, but yet do not have the words or images to express it. We use artists to express the feelings that exist below the surface of our everyday conscious minds. 

Also, because of that, I like old-time music because it depicts some musical forms that are really really different from what most of us are used to hearing. But I like playing almost anything, to be honest. Shit, there've been so many times someone has seen me with my banjo and started rapping "Fuck the Police" and it's the greatest thing ever. That's happened three times in three different cities. But old-time is simply my favorite thing to play right now and I don't think I or my friends play it in a boring, uninspired way. Not to sound pretentious. But we try to give it as much liveliness and energy as possible.


----------



## shitbum

Hell yeah! I hammer out some old time every day. And a lot of it is heavily influenced by Joseph from BDAS. He seems to have a lot more bluegrass-y drive to his tunes. 

And let me just say, since we're on the subject of banjo's, Fuck Deliverance, and that stupid song. If one more stupid drunk frat boy yells at me "PLAY DELIVERANCE MAN!!!" while I'm busking and sits there while I play the whole fucking song, for him, then walks off without giving me a dime, I'm bashing him.


----------



## Crocodile

GAAAH! I hate that more than Wagonwheel requests. That shit is annoying as hell. 

What old-time musicians do you like and what are some of your favorite tunes?


----------



## shitbum

oh man, uhhhh:

Wade Ward
Fred Cockerham
Tommy Jarrell
Glen Smith
Matokie Slaughter 
Kyle Creed 

There's more, I just can't think of em.

As far as songs go there's just too many, but I'll try

Tempie Rool Down Your Bangs 
Half Shaved
John Brown's Dream 
John Henry 
Cotton Eye Joe


and on and on and on


----------



## shitbum

I tried to edit my last post to add this, but for some reason it wasn't having it. so here:



EDIT: essentially, when I got into it, I really loved the roundpeak style clawhammer, it seemed more intricate, and more in depth for somebody's ears. so that's basically the main type of oldtime I'm into, it seems the further north you get the music gets cleaner and cleaner, which is ok, but not my style haha.


----------



## Crocodile

Yeah, I totally agree with you on the whole round peaky thing. It just has this eerie otherworldliness to it. I like old-time music where the african influence is most prevalent (which round-peak would definitely be one of them.) 

My favorites are

Pretty much everything you listed, though I've never heard Kyle Creed
Bruce Molsky
Rayna Gellert
New Lost City Ramblers
Adam Hurt
Morgantown Rounders
Chris Wig (Check out Chadwell's Station if you haven't heard him. It's an attempt to do pre-civil war fiddle)

Favorite tunes:

Rockingham Cindy
Five Miles to Town
Liza Jane
Shuck in The Bush
Over the Waterfall
Santa Anna's Retreat
Muskrat Sally Ann


----------



## shitbum

I've been on a tear here recently on Joseph's videos on youtube, and trying to figure them out. I'm not sure what "style" of clawhammer that would even be considered, but it's awesome. 



This is what I like, fast, lots of drive, and just bad ass. I don't think I burnt myself out on oldtime, but hearing something like that kind of took over and I can't stop till I figure out some of his techniques/licks/whatever haha.


----------



## macks

I play clawhammer banjer, it's a hoot.

I like the minor sawmill type stuff and round mountain tunes. 

Some of my favorites:

June Apple
Spotted Pony
Over the Waterfall
Cluck Old Hen
Greasy Coat
Sail Away Ladies
Walk Along John to Kansas
Boatman
Arkansas Traveler
Georgia Railroad
Train on the Island
Policeman

Let me know if any of you get out to Oregon this fall, I'm always up for playing tunes.


----------



## MiztressWinter

I've played guitar for years as well as tinkered with banjo and am really interested in the clawhammer technique of finger picking. In the past year or so I've been expanding my musical tastes, and have actually been looking to purchase a banjo, however everything I come across in music stores, pawn shops, and craigslist has been just too damn expensive for me to afford at this time. Any advice on where I might be able to pick one up for not tooooo much?? We found a decent washboard when we were in ATL at an antique store for only five bucks.


----------



## shitbum

I ebay-ed mine, 125 dollar hondo, and a POS case. I like it, it works, and the neck's straight. I do put a little pillow in between the coordinator rod and the back of the head to mute it a little, and make it a _little_ plunkier. my first one was my grandmother's haha it was some plastic shitty fucking thing from sear's that hardly held a tune for any more than 5 minutes, and I played the hell out of it and loved it.

and yeah I play in sawmill and drop c for all my old time tunes pretty much. Both are really cool sounding tunings.


----------



## Crocodile

I really like that blazing fast, hard-driving stuff too, but recently, I've taken a liking to crooked, eerie mountain minor tunes. I just really like Tommy Jarrell a lot right now - and part of the reason why his music is so haunting is the pace; it's not too fast and not too slow. Just enough to feel like you're up there in the fog on a mountain. 

My banjo is a really nice Gold Tone that I got for $180 at a music store in Asheville. The banjo I had before was Deering Goodtime that was broken twice. It was very upsetting; My friend stepped on the neck when we were getting on a 48 in Cleveland. Then, I went to Philly and got it fixed for $10 from a friend. After that, I was hopping on the fly out of Richmond out of that little local NS line to Crewe and I fell off and broke my banjo. I landed 5 feet away from a switch. Glad I didn't break my back. When I finally got to Asheville, the first thing I did was get that banjo. The music store owner let me trade in my old banjo...even though it was decapitated at the headstock. Brutal.


----------



## Crocodile

Oh, I forgot. MiztressWinter, what price can you afford for a banjo? The cheapest one new that sounds really good costs $350. It's a Gold Tone CR-50 and it's what I have. I swear by it; it's fucking nice. Luckily I got it used though.


----------



## MiztressWinter

I prolly couldn't afford more than around 150.00 right now, which I know isn't much, especially for something nice. 

Fender FB300 5 String Banjo Package | Sam Ash Music 1-800-4-SAMASH This is what my ex mother in law owned and this is all I've ever played on. But I can't afford anything in that price range right now. 

And I don't really want a plastic, shitty banjo lol even though those plastic traveling ones can be fun to play with


----------



## Crocodile

Hmmm. I'd say keep looking on ebay specifically for open-back banjos. Banjo with hard case, 5 string, open back, new - eBay (item 200525727240 end time Oct-07-10 10:11:12 PDT). This one looks like it might be ok. It doesn't say what brand though, and it doesn't seem like the seller knows anything about banjos. I'd say go for it.


----------



## Crocodile

Also, avoid packages like that fender you showed me. They're designed to rip you off. My friend has the same one and you can get a much nicer banjo for the same price.


----------



## MiztressWinter

Thanks for the advice. I have absolutely no clue when it comes to purchasing a banjo. If I were to find something used in my price range would you be willing to tell me if you thought it was worth the buy?

Ooooh and that banjo link (ebay) doesn't look bad at all! It's gonna be a few weeks or so until I could afford anything though so it will prolly be gone by then unfortunately.


----------



## thefourthgeorge

Just recently some friends and I started up a bluegrass/jug style band. We're still in the early stages right now, but when we busk or play at a party we get real good receptions. Hoping to do some lofi recording soonish. Our current lineup is two banjos, a guitar and yours truly on washtub bass; we're all multi-instrumentalists with access to some items such as fiddles, cellos and accordions but we haven't gone down that road of experimentation just yet.


----------



## Saentis

I've been DIEING to get my hands on a banjo for months now. I want to learn to clawhammer sooooo bad. I've been watching all these daily video blogs and online tutorials from this guy in Manasas VA for months now and I think I get the concept, I just need to put it to practice practice practice.


----------



## AggroAppalachian

Agreed!


----------



## Swiper

I approve of this post so much


----------



## outskirts

I can't believe this thread!
As I'm typing this there are two people downstairs practicing on a fiddle and a dulcimer.
I work in a Folk Music and Basketry shop! LOL My family's shop. 
But I'm a basket weaver not a musician, I am trying to learn to play harmonica though.
Man I grew up on that stuff, my folk musician parents hauled my brother and I with them all
over the East coast when we were kids.
I'd go to school and have a Kentucky Music Weekend T-shirt on and the other kids would
have rock concert T-Shirts on... yeah I got my ass kicked a lot back in school, lol.


----------



## bcob

I've been dying to get at my banjo but it's busted. Right when I was starting to get serious about clawhammer, too.

In the meantime I'm working on building a fretless gourd banjo, gonna try to keep total costs under $50. So far, so good, but you know how that goes sometimes. Tried whittling my own pegs but the wood ended up being too soft under tension, so I swallowed my pride and bought uke tuners for a buck each. Might end up doing a tackhead with goatskin but for now it's an old snare drum head.


----------



## plagueship

tommy jarrell is great but i think ernie carpenter is my favorite. i love those scratchy old timey recordings where they have little interviews where some lady asks the guy if the fiddle is really the devil's instrument or he talks about how his grandpappy wrote the song or something. so good


----------



## plagueship




----------



## Crocodile

Oh god, Ernie Carpenter is excellent. My favorites are Hiram Stamper, Lester McCumbers, Bruce Molsky, Chris Wig, and Ed Haley right now.


----------



## elbowjames

this is too funny cause jeez climb up outta the dust bowl 

old time appalachian

i just love it when little shit city kids cling to their" country rural" roots and learn clawhammer and ragtime shit


listen to abner jay he said it best

most folk singers dont look like folk at all

i admire and play and live this music as do many of us here but its just fucking hilarious how many countless kids attach themselves to this shit without a clue what they are singing about 

singing songs written by people you wouldnt come into contact with in todays worls even if they were there

theres more old time music in that old lady singin in piggly wiggly or the creepy drunk hooker in lexington than any one us.

also anyone can learn to wipe their own ass with enough practice just like the banjo

trying to explain old time and the why it wasnt contemporary is a joke because it was and it is today 

thanks for turning culture into commodity


----------



## Crocodile

Your response, while it does touch upon a common problem of a lack of depth in people trying to sincerely understand this kind of music, no offense, but your critique sounds more like an elitist affectation than a serious attempt to love and connect to this music. I know that the way I play this music is influenced by overtones of "modern" culture, but that doesn't matter. I know a lot of people acknowledge that too. 

Most of us didn't grow up around this music, but if you love it, learn it. 

I come from the Midwest where the fiddle tradition is not nearly the same as it is in the Appalachians. I'm not southern, I'm not Appalachian, but you know, why do we have to have these explicit boundaries between time periods and regional cultures? The process of culture works by breaking down and building up definitions of what an object or system of symbols (like music) is. We all participate in that, and by saying that it is impossible for "us" to play the music of another culture pretends that culture is a static force. 

I think you just want to sound cynical and over it. Thanks for adding pretentiousness. Can you assume that your way of understanding this music is better? How are YOU not commodifying this music just as much as the next fucking kid? 

You know what? I STUDY this music fucking hard, and that's my gig. I WANT to know the roots of it on an intimate level, because history is something inherently worth preserving. Does that mean I'm commodifying it? In some sense, perhaps, because that process involves defining a range of what constitutes old-time music, and thus making it an object available to be commodified. However, that process doesn't just involve archaic music. That happens to everything, including things that we make completely ourselves (which is a questionable concept at that) like punk. 

You know what's punk about old-time music? Taking it and making your OWN. Those old-timers were not thinking about "How can I make this sound as old as possible?" they were and are thinking about how to play what they love. I'm not turning this music into some sacred artifact that must be preserved from the deathly influence of modern western culture, I'm subjecting it to those influences to make it relevant, and also, reciprocally, allowing myself to be influenced by the deep mystery of the difference between my way of thinking about music, and those subject's ways of thinking about music.

So thanks for that absolutely asinine post. I think you should think about this music a little deeper before making this joke of a generalization and furthering the sense that this music is only for a select group people (perhaps in your mind, just yourself and the few people you condone as worthy.)


----------



## plagueship

crocodile... well said...

i'm not sure really what elbowjames was trying to say, it seems sort of like the equivalent of "i liked modest mouse before they were cool!" and also a bit like the traditional pc complaint about "cultural appropriation". i think i do share some of these concerns at least on a visceral level. then again, i don't imagine that tommy jarrell or whoever is spinning in their grave because grimy kids with septum rings are playing the same kind of music, in a very different context, in 2011. i would like to imagine that any true hearted musician knows that imitation is the finest form of flattery.

i'll say this for my own encounters with traditional music. i took up banjo, and later fiddle, after years of busking with guitar, playing folk, indie, punk, folkpunk, etc, songs... if you want to talk about folk as in the music you were surrounded with in a culture/subculture when you were coming up, i guess that comprises my folk music? anyway... i think this is true for a lot of people... i got interested in playing different instruments... first of all because another bearded white boy with an acoustic guitar isn't that lucrative. so i got into other instruments that i could carry.

i started playing clawhammer style banjo because i thought it was cooler than bluegrass, just personal taste. this led me directly to the canonical tunes of appalachian frailling, which led me very quickly to the fiddle. eventually i started to get really into traditional eastern european/jewish music because this is very relevant to my heritage. all through history all folk musicians steal from each other and experiment with whatever strikes their fancy. musicians who travel have come up with some of the most interesting stuff by being exposed to and inspired by so many local styles (just look at the roma!).

anyway my jewish heritage is very significant to me in many ways including my choice of music, but i would never tell someone else that they shouldn't play klezmer tunes because they're not jewish. i'm just happy that people are still playing it, you know? i don't believe in intellectual property rights, or that culture is an object that is the property of some group of people defined by their locality, lifestyle or ancestry. i think it's just an aspect of being human that is there for anyone creative enough to play with, borrow from and so on.

im rambling on a bit as usual but i hope this made some sense. i also think it's pretty cheesy sometimes the ways in which punx "appropriate" folk culture, but i'm not going to go around shitting on them to show everyone else that i'm so much more authentic (wtf does that mean anyway).

anyway i also suspect elbowjames, crocodile and myself may actually all have a little more in common than we might realize from our particular perspectives and ways of expressing them, but who knows.


----------



## bcob

It takes about 30 seconds to tell whether someone is 'just doing it because it's cool' or if they have an actual genuine interest. Barely even worth complaining about, unless you're just trying to start a pissing contest with someone.


----------

