# Workamping in the Eastern Seirras Sucks



## fimbulvetr

So I kind of felt inclined to share my experience as a campsite host thus far, mostly as a warning to anybody thinking of doing this, but there have been some good moments as well. I found a job in Humboldt Toiyabe National Forest on workampingjobs.com. In fact I had like three offers from that site and I chose this one, because of it's proximity to Yosemite. I thought it would be cool to head down Tioga pass at some point this summer, but its looking less and less likely. When I got here I notice my van was leaking coolant and it's coming from the intake manifold, not something I want to wrench on in a campsite if I can avoid it and not a job I currently have the patience for given everything else going on here. 

So I found a shop 60 miles away in Gardenerville, NV and its going to be an expensive fix, but reasonable given the scope of the job. So I am currently saving up to do that, while dealing with a lot of extreme right-wing inbred fisherman. I've seen more MAGA hats here than anywhere else I've ever been. I guess having read John Muir, I thought the Seirras would be populated with people like me that respect the environment and nature and all that tree hugger crap. That isn't what I've found. I've found mostly wealthy people in RV's taking their children out on the lake, which is stocked with fish because it's been waaaaay over fished at this point and that is a necessity to keep the tourism here alive. 

They come up here, leave trash everywhere, diarrhea shit all over the bathrooms that I have to clean and find this or that to complain to my manager about. It is probably the most demeaning job I've had in the last 15 years and I am currently trying to find any reason to go somewhere else. They pay me for 25 hours, but the fact is I'm always "on call," to police their sometimes non-sensical rules and regulations, that I really don't give a shit about. I'm supposed to have 2 days a week off, but that doesn't happen. In fact some guy told me the other day that I don't get days off, which is just the entitled baby boomer attitude up here. He parked in the wrong site, my boss found out and charged him for two sites, he tried to say it was my fault for not noticing on my day off. Overall I'd say this whole workamping thing is vastly overrated. It really sucks.

I thought I'd make a few friends up here, but they are all a bunch of Trump voting squares, so that's not going to happen. The racism up here is pretty extreme too. I've noticed that when they warn me about a "problem camper," they are always a person of color or not straight or trans or whatever and I've had 0 problems with any of these, "problem campers." It is a culture of racism up here and the go around harassing people that are different and because of that probably 99% of the campers here are white. I've got no problem with white people, but it just seems like the run everybody else out and I've got a real problem with that. Since my political views have gotten out, I've gotten glares and threatening remarks from some of the other hosts.

Now it is beautiful here. There is an alpine lake surrounded by snow capped mountains. I love the nature, but the people are terrible. It's not ideal to have to drive 60 miles to get food either. I don't think I would ever do this again, certainly not in this location. Most outdoorsman types don't care about anything but what they can take from the land and they never give anything back. They "use the whole blah blah blah," but leave fishing line everywhere, hooks littered all over the creek, empty beer cans strewn about, etc... Not what people who care about nature do. Anyway, that's what I've got currently. I would love to hear about some traveller job resources, because I need to get the hell out of here soon.


----------



## SaltyCrew

I took a similar job on Drummond Island in the UP of Michigan early this spring, and the EXACT same thing happened to me. I was so excited for the job, and it turned out to be hell. I made it a month or so, sold my car and rode my bike the hell out of there.

EDIT: the job I took was for a private campground/bar-grill. By saying the exact same thing happened to me, I was referring to the fact I encountered tons of racist folk, tons of trash thrown everywhere, general disrespect for nature, all over the entire island. Such a shame, because it's a beautiful island. I spent my free time riding my bike around picking up cans, worth 10 cents each in Michigan. One of the first days I did this, I took 2 loads into the gas station to redeem them. The second time I went in that day, the clerk looks at me with all these dirty cans and she says, "well now this is just funny." I replied with, "what's funny? The fact all you locals drive around drunk and throw your cans out the window and now I'm picking them up?" She twitched her head a few times, didn't say anything else and walked away.


----------



## Deleted member 23824

We knew a couple that absolutely loved their job hosting at Pinecrest, about 20 years ago. They moved around the state to a new location each season.When they needed something, one would stay, the other would do whatever needed doing off-site, including making regular forays back to their home in the Bay area to collect mail, see their kids and grandkids, etc. . According to them, they were required to clean the restrooms twice per day. There were four sets of restrooms, they shared the duties, and it did not take them long to do the job each day. They sold firewood, had jam sessions with friends most nights in their site, and only had to pay friendly visits to ne’re do wells asking them to cease and desist with any bad behavior, before passing the problem off to a park ranger. 

That is the pattern I’ve seen camping in state campgrounds - a retired couple with a truck and camper, a second vehicle for trips out to civilization. Sounds to me as if you did not really think it through, it is not ideal if you’re without help.


----------



## fimbulvetr

ibuzzard said:


> We knew a couple that absolutely loved their job hosting at Pinecrest, about 20 years ago. They moved around the state to a new location each season.When they needed something, one would stay, the other would do whatever needed doing off-site, including making regular forays back to their home in the Bay area to collect mail, see their kids and grandkids, etc. . According to them, they were required to clean the restrooms twice per day. There were four sets of restrooms, they shared the duties, and it did not take them long to do the job each day. They sold firewood, had jam sessions with friends most nights in their site, and only had to pay friendly visits to ne’re do wells asking them to cease and desist with any bad behavior, before passing the problem off to a park ranger.
> 
> That is the pattern I’ve seen camping in state campgrounds - a retired couple with a truck and camper, a second vehicle for trips out to civilization. Sounds to me as if you did not really think it through, it is not ideal if you’re without help.


so


----------



## Deleted member 23824

fimbulvetr said:


> so



So . . . you failed to think things through, eh? Their perspective was just a bit different to yours. Why is that, do you think?

“Most outdoorsman types don't care about anything but what they can take from the land and they never give anything back. They "use the whole blah blah blah," but leave fishing line everywhere, hooks littered all over the creek, empty beer cans strewn about, etc.”

That is unmitigated bullshit. You are mistaking outdoorsmen for ignorant city folk that come out into nature once or twice a year. Most rural people who are also avid outdoorsmen jealously protect and appreciate the environment they love so much.

And furthermore, since you do not even seem to know the difference between “outdoorsman types” and ignorant city-folk, I am gonna venture a guess that you’re a city person yourself.


----------



## fimbulvetr

So, prima facia that's what I thought the job would be like, but it's actually more work than it looks like to the outside world. We have one LEO for about 300 square miles up here. As somebody that doesn't believe in the police I don't call them unless somebody is burning the park down which almost happened last night.

I am used to being on my own. Spent a year in Portland, by myself, boondocked and traveled the last year by myself, I kind of like it that way. I don't actually mind people and have had some great campers, but the people I work for and the "sportsman," are kind of insufferable. This being so close to Yosemite I didn't think I'd have to babysit people about using the bear box and the other night somebody had their tent swiped by a bear because they had food in there and they ended up getting sent 60 miles to a hospital. It pisses me off because these idiots do dumb shit and go home and now the poor bear has to be hazed.

Because of the cut budgets and the sheer number of idiots it's impossible to address this as a law enforcement issue anyway. Its just entitled people coming out for the weekend stripping the place of it's resources and in the process all the things that make it beautiful. 

Cleaning the bathrooms is my least complaint, just don't know how people live this long having explosive diarrhea. 

Nothing could have prepared me for this level of disappointment. Unless you've got something helpful to say then please just disregard everything here. I read the job description and it's nothing like the actual situation. Nobody is coming up here trying to jam around a campfire, I wish to hell they would. I've got some meat puppets and Woody guthrie tunes Ive been pickin on by my lonesome. I'm about to head to vallejo just to have somebody to work on music with.


----------



## fimbulvetr

ibuzzard said:


> So . . . you failed to think things through, eh? Their perspective was just a bit different to yours. Why is that, do you think?
> 
> “Most outdoorsman types don't care about anything but what they can take from the land and they never give anything back. They "use the whole blah blah blah," but leave fishing line everywhere, hooks littered all over the creek, empty beer cans strewn about, etc.”
> 
> That is unmitigated bullshit. You are mistaking outdoorsmen for ignorant city folk that come out into nature once or twice a year. Most rural people who are also avid outdoorsmen jealously protect and appreciate the environment they love so much.
> 
> And furthermore, since you do not even seem to know the difference between “outdoorsman types” and ignorant city-folk, I am gonna venture a guess that you’re a city person yourself.



you're an idiot. these people are from rural cali or Nevada, I talk to them and then I clean up their trash. Outdoorsman have this narrative monopolized and it's absolute lunacy to believe, like they are "controlling populations," of what? stocked fish and quail? give me a break. Its hunters and fisherman that caused this problem and it's just as much rural idiots as it is city people. I'd say, anecdotally it's more the rural, uneducated types that deny climate change that come out here and wreck the most shit. So you can stick that narrative right where it belongs, up your uneducated ass.


----------



## fimbulvetr

SaltyCrew said:


> I took a similar job on Drummond Island in the UP of Michigan early this spring, and the EXACT same thing happened to me. I was so excited for the job, and it turned out to be hell. I made it a month or so, sold my car and rode my bike the hell out of there.



I'm about ready to cut and run on these dumbasses myself.


----------



## Deleted member 23824

I can tell you’re a real “people person”. Now it’s all someone else’s’ fault.

All sing the familiar refrain . . . “The entire world are idiots . . .except me!”


----------



## fimbulvetr

ibuzzard said:


> I can tell you’re a real “people person”. Now it’s all someone else’s’ fault.
> 
> All sing the familiar refrain . . all the world are idiots, except me




hey your the one saying it. Do you have anything but ad hominym or are we done here. go back to your cave, troll.


----------



## fimbulvetr

ibuzzard said:


> I can tell you’re a real “people person”. Now it’s all someone else’s’ fault.
> 
> All sing the familiar refrain . . . “The entire world are idiots . . .except me!”



I actually find it kind of hillarious how easy it is to bring you opinionated snowflakes out from the woodworks. Anytime somebody drops a fact you're just around the corner with nothing substantial but a moronic opinion to slam them with. Now that that's out of the way, you want to be discuss the issue at hand? We have allowed hunters and Farmers, largely morons like the bundys kill of predators that belong here like grizzlys and wolves because it supports the economy of "sport fishing/hunting," there is no sport in shooting artificially over populated deer or stocked fish. We have wrecked the outdoors by letting inbred redneck outdoorsman have their way with it. Good job, you're all so tough you can catch a fish we put here for you to catch. Its not davey crocket fighting grizzly's with their bare hands, it's alt-right rehects with little dicks trying to feel like a man while their wife fucks her yoga instructor. deal with it.


----------



## Deleted member 125

fimbulvetr said:


> I actually find it kind of hillarious how easy it is to bring you opinionated snowflakes out from the woodworks. Anytime somebody drops a fact you're just around the corner with nothing substantial but a moronic opinion to slam them with. Now that that's out of the way, you want to be discuss the issue at hand? We have allowed hunters and Farmers, largely morons like the bundys kill of predators that belong here like grizzlys and wolves because it supports the economy of "sport fishing/hunting," there is no sport in shooting artificially over populated deer or stocked fish. We have wrecked the outdoors by letting inbred redneck outdoorsman have their way with it. Good job, you're all so tough you can catch a fish we put here for you to catch. Its not davey crocket fighting grizzly's with their bare hands, it's alt-right rehects with little dicks trying to feel like a man while their wife fucks her yoga instructor. deal with it.



I actually find it kind of hilarious that yer response to somebody not even disagreeing with you is to call them a opinionated snowflake (maybe too much time round them alt right folk got you talking like those morons) because they pointed out that maybe, just maybe you thought you landed a cool job that turned out to not be what you expected.

Yer right though, that's a real fucking drag about having to restock a lake with fish for people to feel like a big bad outdoors man. And I completely agree with you cleaning up camp trash or having to clean toilets or deal with assholes all day is a bummer. It sounds like every single job I've ever had though. Live and learn and all that shit. You can always quit right?


----------



## Coywolf

Oh for fucks sake people.

It sounds like you had a bad experience Work camping. There is a reason you only really see retired folk with dispensible income and class A RVs doing that job.

One of the problems is that yes, Recreation Resource Management and similar government contractors do mis-post these jobs and not talk about the shitty pay, shitty hours, shitty people ,and the fact they are going to make a shit load of money off of your back.

No one is "stupid" or "not thinking it through" it's just an experience that one must go through in order to find out why it is really like.

Next point. Ya. People in the Eastern Sierras are mostly conservative, Trump Voting, Public Land Hating (But I'ma HUNTER, and a FISHERMAN!) Yahoo's. But not all of them, most of these people you are talking about comefrom Reno, LA, Vegas, and NorCal. I know many locals who are just as pissed as anyone else about dumbass "outdoorsman" city people fucking up the Eastern Sierras. I don't blame them for being hostle. Look at Mammoth.

Also, I may not know what van you have, but how is it even possible for coolant to be coming from the intake manifold...? Head gaskets maybe?

Either way for good sake calm down and handle criticism, whether it be warranted or not, like an adult. So sick of seeing these heated responses.

I work as a Park Ranger. I see this shit every day. I hate the campground contractors just as much as the next guy, just let this be A good post to warn people to seriously vet these kind of gigs before driving out to them

I dont mean to sound harsh, I'm just sick of seeing these petty posts turning into an unfavorable staff action.


----------



## Coywolf

Also, if you don't mind me asking, where was your duty station? In Nevada or CA? That would make a big difference.


----------



## Coywolf

AND ANOTHER THING....lol

I gotta say that rich spoiled trust fund liberal techies from the bay area/Portland/Seattle are just as much to blame for Fucking up public land with Instagram (#HastagLocation) and and their "ultra light gear" that uses enough pertoleum to kill a whale...

As the redneck hunters and fisherman. In fact, probably more so. Hunters and fishermen are an extremely valuable section of this country when it comes to Public Land. We would lose it all to Rob Bishop and Jason Chaffetz without them.

Not saying they are all good, and liberal techies are all bad....but ya know who I've seen who are the WORST out of all of them? Dirtbag Climbers and Boy Scouts. Mark my words.


----------



## Eng JR Lupo RV323

Man, reading these threads whilst peaking on acid in a Home Depot parking lot in Oroville Ca with hundreds of people setting off mortars like right in my face right now is not how I thought this night was gonna go but I'm into it. 

Huge shout out to Jai in that "Royale with Cheese" hippie bus for styling me out with that random hit of blotter with such fortuitous timing. It's been a night to remember. Y'all be nice to each other, and don't be callin my boy ibuzzard stupid ya dick.


----------



## SaltyCrew

Coywolf said:


> Also, I may not know what van you have, but how is it even possible for coolant to be coming from the intake manifold...? Head gaskets maybe?



This is pretty common on high milage/severe use vehicles. Alot of the time the leak is external, runs down the block and burns off. It's bad when the leak is internal and saturates the inside of the intake. The effects can eventually lead to hydrolocking if not fixed. 

The coolant circulates through the intake manifold on almost all V block design engines. All the domestic manufactures used this design at one point or another, still today, and many foreign manufacturers as well. Just like a head gasket can start leaking internally or externally, the intake manifold is prone to do the same.


----------



## fimbulvetr

Coywolf said:


> Also, if you don't mind me asking, where was your duty station? In Nevada or CA? That would make a big difference.



So here is the thing, if we were talking about criticism, I can take that, when some guy comes on here swinging with hostility I'm going to swing back. I say things like snowflake tounge in cheek and obviously some people aren't really familiar with sarcasm. Also the idea thst this is city folks is trash. The most respectful people I've had were from LA and the least so far has been people from rural nevada and utah. I think this narrative needs to be adjusted. I'm from rural Pennsylvania and this sort of behavior from hunters and fisherman is the rule, not the exception. They claim to care but then they cut their line and leave the hook in a fish they don't want and call it catch and release. This city folk vs country folk mentality is something I see as part of the problem and it mostly seems to be a way to be racist without using language you can't easily walk back. The other term I hear up here is "problem campers," which I explained before. Its thinly veiled racism. Now I'm not saying that is what you're referring to, but there is a reason you don't often see people of color up here. All of that, including the linguistics that reinforce it should change because its starting to turn into a dog whistle term.
Now I mushroom hunt and forage and have clocked a lot of hours in backcountry by myself, I've also lived in cities and from the experience I've had anecdotally and from readily available data on how humans affect their environments I personally think we need to soften cities in some ways and everyone should move into one and quarantine human impact to urban areas. The wilderness should be a place we are permitted to enter only temporarily and after we've proven we can respect its wildness. There isn't really such thing as a wild animal anymore, as most do quite well eating our waste and here the deer are fed so frequently they come right up to people and demand food by stomping at you and snorting. Bears have developed similar behavior and its all from being poorly trained by humans. I say all this with a real love of the wild places that are left, just like I never harvest even 1/3 of the chanterelles I find and they are one of my favorite wild edible mushrooms. Sometimes you have to leave the things you love alone or they might cease to exist entirely. It is already tge case that you cannot get more than 7 miles from a road in the US. The real wilderness is shrinking and when you fly over tge country its pretty sad to note that you can always see a city or at least the scars of agriculture. 
Somebody that really loves the wilderness takes nothing back with them because they know that makes it less wild.
I can't go into detail about where I work publicly, because I still work here. If you want to know, dm me.
As per the van leaking coolant I know its very rare that the manifold is what is leaking. I thought at first it was the head gasket, but there is no cooland in the oil, there is no white smoke, it isnt driving harsh or any of the signs that would suggest a head gasket issue. I did trace the leak and the mechanic I took it to confirmed it was likely a bad intake manifold gasket. It's a 1999 gmc Savanna. I haven't done anything but clean things up as best I can so I cant totally confirm that until I do. It's a real pain to work on these things unfortunately.
Basically I have to stay here until I can afford to fix this. Then I'll quit and will post where I worked. It is disgraceful how much money they are raking in up here and how little it pays. I am responsible for a few thousand dollars at any given time, but I wont make all summer what I make them in a week. Selling this off wholesale to private contractors has really made the whole thing pretty disgusting. Its a big facade to make people think they are in untouched wilderness, but we are out here cobbling this Disneyland freak show together Truman show style.


----------



## fimbulvetr

I disagree completely that without hunters we'd lose the wilderness. We have lost the wilderness and it is because of hunters, but I agree completely about the instagram #getoutside people. I love ultralite stuff because I have a bad back though and canvass military packs just don't cut it. I don't know many climbers around here so I can't say, but having been a boyscout I think it is where "sportsman," get indoctrinated into the idea that hunting helps anything. I'd much rather see camera weilding yuppies than gun toting retards out in the back country and that is for all kinds of reasons. Hunters are cruel, selfish and uneducated and are the last subset of the populace that should be allowed to own a firearm.


----------



## iamwhatiam

fimbulvetr said:


> Hunters are cruel, selfish and uneducated and are the last subset of the populace that should be allowed to own a firearm.


Big generalization there. Would love for you to head up to somewhere like Alaska, with that attitude, and tell all the subsistence hunters/fishers how horrible they are and see how far that gets you. If anything, the advent of agriculture and factory farming livestock has fucked up this planet more than hunters have or ever will. I would much rather have to deal with a few assholes who leave their beer cans in the woods or a hook in a fish, then assholes who clearcut a large section of forest so they can monocrop their GMO corn or soy to feed their cows and pump the earth full of chemicals.

There is nothing wrong with hunting for your meat. It's hard to take you seriously when you start preaching shit like that. Sure, there are assholes in all walks of life but it makes you look like a fool when you make a generalization like that.


----------



## Coywolf

What @iamwhatiam said 

Plus, you are not taking into account the political power of the outdoor industry. A majority of it comes from hunting, fishing, boating, ATV, ECT. A very small percentage of actual political power comes from people who like to strap on a backpack and hit a wilderness area....with the exception of the Sierra club and the NC.

These people need to be allies, not made out to be some redneck yahoos with not respect for the land.

Some of the best land managers I've met have been hunters and fisherman. 

You seem to be all ideals and not really have alot of real world experience in this endeavor.

John Muir, Teddy Roosevelt, Gifford Pinchot.....these are just a few famous wildrness advocates who happened to also be sportsman.

What we need to do is get this group to call out the dumbasses that claim to be a part of it. Because public land and wilderness is just as important to them as wilderness advocates and environmentalists like me.

Also, pleas don't confuse ANYWHERE/ANYONE in the east, with public lands in the West. It's a whole different ballgame. It's not even the same sport. 

All you need for proof of that is comparing Thoreau to Muir.


----------



## Coywolf

My point with political power is that, it is what creates and sustains laws. Such as the Wilderness Act, the Antiquities Act, and ARPA.

Without powerful political allies that value the outdoors, this country would resemble Europe.


----------



## SaltyCrew

fimbulvetr said:


> The wilderness should be a place we are permitted to enter only temporarily and after we've proven we can respect its wildness.


Lol...how would you ever provide for yourself, if that was your goal, with this mentality? Did Lewis and Clark pull over at Taco Bell when they got hungry? 


fimbulvetr said:


> Now I mushroom hunt and forage and have clocked a lot of hours in backcountry by myself,





fimbulvetr said:


> Somebody that really loves the wilderness takes nothing back with them because they know that makes it less wild.


 You've done gone and contradicted yourself now. 


fimbulvetr said:


> It is already tge case that you cannot get more than 7 miles from a road in the US.


You've never been more than 7 miles from a road? You should explore more, in my opinion. Keep wandering, you'll get more than 7 miles from a road eventually.


----------



## SaltyCrew

fimbulvetr said:


> I did trace the leak and the mechanic I took it to confirmed it was likely a bad intake manifold gasket. It's a 1999 gmc Savanna. I haven't done anything but clean things up as best I can so I cant totally confirm that until I do. It's a real pain to work on these things unfortunately.



The intake manifold gaskets are $10 for the set. You can completely remove the intake manifold from the engine in about an hour, 2 if you watch a YouTube video. Make sure to clean all the old excess gasket gunk from the machined surfaces so you get a good seal with the new gaskets.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog...5385,engine,intake+manifold+gasket+/+set,5424


----------



## dumpster harpy

anybody in this thread familiar with the term _ecofascism_?


----------



## roughdraft

dumpster harpy said:


> anybody in this thread familiar with the term _ecofascism_?



afraid not, but I am curious- will you tell us about this term?


----------



## dumpster harpy

"*Ecofascism* is a theoretical political model in which a totalitarian government would require individuals to sacrifice their own interests to the "organic whole of nature" and which would rely on "militarism, expansionism, and possibly racism to defend the land"."

i.e. believing in setting up and enforcing exclusion zones to "protect nature" whether in the outwardly totalitarian "force everyone into cities" model, or even our current dominant model of conservation being used primarily to protect extractive industries while promoting "outdoorsmanship" , neither are possible without the ongoing genocide and erasure of indigenous peoples. Much of this is perpetuated by the myth of precolonial America as a "vast, untouched wilderness" as opposed to being a complex network of peoples with an uncountable variety of lifeways and relationships with the land.


----------



## Coywolf

dumpster harpy said:


> "*Ecofascism* is a theoretical political model in which a totalitarian government would require individuals to sacrifice their own interests to the "organic whole of nature" and which would rely on "militarism, expansionism, and possibly racism to defend the land"."
> 
> i.e. believing in setting up and enforcing exclusion zones to "protect nature" whether in the outwardly totalitarian "force everyone into cities" model, or even our current dominant model of conservation being used primarily to protect extractive industries while promoting "outdoorsmanship" , neither are possible without the ongoing genocide and erasure of indigenous peoples. Much of this is perpetuated by the myth of precolonial America as a "vast, untouched wilderness" as opposed to being a complex network of peoples with an uncountable variety of lifeways and relationships with the land.



There is alot to divulge there. And not all of it is related. I'm familiar with this term.

Many BS right wing fanatic survivalist groups use this as a argument against Wilderness designations.

But yes. It's possible. And frankly, I do believe that most human habitation, if industrialized, should be contained to metropolitan areas. 

Why? Well, for one thing, our planet wouldn't survive in any other instance. Vast areas of oxygen regenerating plants would be wiped out, fauna critical to ecosystems would be eradicated, and life as we know it (outside of the Truman show( would cease 

Yes, I understand some people are fanatics, but when we allow these sorts views to become paranoia, we will make this political system even worse than it already is. just look at the current administration.

The environment is good, capitalism will destroy it, and greed when it comes to overpopulation and industrialism is bad. This is just my opinion, speaking in voice to text, while my keyboard is broken, and I'm slightly drunk. So forgive me if my description is not up to par. I will update with a moor inclusive opinion upon my return to social media and soberness.


----------



## WyldLyfe

I have not heard of the term *Ecofascism* before but what u described it as i have heard of that, theres a map of what they have planned for the usa.. hopefully they fail, cus trapping people in city an urban areas only is not good for them they need nature they are nature.


----------



## Eng JR Lupo RV323

Coywolf said:


> speaking in voice to text, while my keyboard is broken, and I'm slightly drunk. So forgive me if my description is not up to par



Interesting, even while drunk you're able to use punctuation and separate paragraphs. I guess all those claims by what's his fuck DontPanic that his talk to text doesn't allow the use of periods, commas and paragraphs resulting in massive walls of text/run on paragraphs turns out to be complete bullshit, he's just a horrible writer. I had a feeling.


----------



## Gulysses3

I don’t think the actual act of hunting helps animals, but the money raised from hunters and the habitat purchased, protected, maintained, etc., is probably extremely critical to survival of many species. I don’t hunt anymore myself but I spend as much time as I can fly fishing. I’ll never understand why some people are too friggin’ lazy to pick up after themselves. We’ve been camp hosts once. I’d do it again if I go too long between programming projects. Dealing with people is a challenge at times.


----------



## RoadFlower33

ibuzzard said:


> We knew a couple that absolutely loved their job hosting at Pinecrest, about 20 years ago. They moved around the state to a new location each season.When they needed something, one would stay, the other would do whatever needed doing off-site, including making regular forays back to their home in the Bay area to collect mail, see their kids and grandkids, etc. . According to them, they were required to clean the restrooms twice per day. There were four sets of restrooms, they shared the duties, and it did not take them long to do the job each day. They sold firewood, had jam sessions with friends most nights in their site, and only had to pay friendly visits to ne’re do wells asking them to cease and desist with any bad behavior, before passing the problem off to a park ranger.
> 
> That is the pattern I’ve seen camping in state campgrounds - a retired couple with a truck and camper, a second vehicle for trips out to civilization. Sounds to me as if you did not really think it through, it is not ideal if you’re without help.


20 years ago ppl were alot more respectful of others and nature. Just saying... also, fat lazy rich capitalists Americans are all the same. I'm in Idaho God damn most beautiful state we have I'm in McCall right now I don't have to be a park ranger or f****** Campground manager to know that yuppies are f****** s*** people when it comes to the forest. motherfukers around here trash everything leave their s*** everywhere literally s*** everywhere, they will f****** s*** in the middle of a campground leave it diarrhea s*** all over the f****** bathroom stall for a city worker clean up no it's not the campground job they decided to take alone...it's the f****** s*** disgusting people we have in America. Self riotous unaware greedy lazy unhealthy nieve waste of oxygen humans... around here the locals clean up trash on their spare time because if we don't it wouldn't get done we clean up campsites during the week it is really sad. The plus side is everyone leaves eventualy and we have a few months of peace. Its -30 outside, but peacfull... and im talking about an entire town and surrounding forest, lakes, rivers, streams meadows, brundages. not just a park area.


----------



## Older Than Dirt

No dog in this fight, and have seen some awful abuse of nature by country folk, city folk, hunters, even bird-watchers, so plenty of blame to go around, but just have to say/ask:



BirdDaddy said:


> Its -30 outside



Huh? Overnight low of 48 in McCall Idaho, tomorrow high of 72, mostly sunny with isolated thunderstorms, according the National Weather Service



BirdDaddy said:


> brundages



WTF is a brundage?


----------



## Eng JR Lupo RV323

Older Than Dirt said:


> Huh? Overnight low of 48 in McCall Idaho, tomorrow high of 72,



Read that portion again. It's super easy to see he doesn't mean currently. He's talking about having a break from all the tourism which happens just about everywhere usually when? Usually the worst part of the winter.


----------



## Older Than Dirt

Ok, fair enough. I don't think anything about that post was super easy or even easy to make out.

I still want to know what is a brundage? It appears from context to be a thing like "lakes, rivers, streams meadows"?


----------



## roughdraft

brundage is supposedly a small streamside pasture, but it sounds too much like 'grundle' for my liking


----------



## Eng JR Lupo RV323

Older Than Dirt said:


> I still want to know what is a brundage? It appears from context to be a thing like "lakes, rivers, streams meadows"?



In that context I agree, and a lot of it is confusing. I've only ever heard the word brundage once in my lifetime which was the title of a documentary a friend of mine made called "Bones of Brundage" but I don't know how that would relate. I think it's the name of a road in Bakersfield which is where the documentary was set. But to name a road that leads me to believe it's gotta be a word, just not very popular in use?

I did a google search and found only one reference to the word as far as definitions and it wasn't a very solid source. It mentioned something about a pasture as @roughdraft mentioned. I decided to go deeper and google "McCall Idaho Brundage" and I believe we might have something here.  Apparently it's a ski resort, probably what @BirdDaddy is referring to. Maybe autocorrect tossed an "s" on the end to keep things interesting, idk.


----------



## RoadFlower33

A Brundage is a place of pastures and streams. Brundage Mountain the ski resort is in fact named after this because it overlooks them in all directions is the tallest mtn in its direct vicinity and is named rather correctly in my opinion. Beside the point. All yuppies suck, it dosent matter, you can't generalize or stereotypical any population of any culture of anyplace anywhere anytime we here on STP should fucking know that better than anybody people in general suck opinions are opinions. believed by whoever is dumb enough to listen. we are egotistical f****** humans this whole conversation of this person that person where they come from and how they got be who they are f****** judgmental b******* and it shouldn't be happening on squat the planet. FUCKING SERIOUSLY. The whole point is managing a part that's visited by mostly racist white yuppies who have no respect for the Earth sucks yeah I imagine it does if sucks living in a beautiful place respecting and loving it and watching others tear it apart it's everywhere everywhere what are we going to do to change it? That's not a rhetorical question either. seriously we are the activists of this country.


----------



## fimbulvetr

iamwhatiam said:


> Big generalization there. Would love for you to head up to somewhere like Alaska, with that attitude, and tell all the subsistence hunters/fishers how horrible they are and see how far that gets you. If anything, the advent of agriculture and factory farming livestock has fucked up this planet more than hunters have or ever will. I would much rather have to deal with a few assholes who leave their beer cans in the woods or a hook in a fish, then assholes who clearcut a large section of forest so they can monocrop their GMO corn or soy to feed their cows and pump the earth full of chemicals.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with hunting for your meat. It's hard to take you seriously when you start preaching shit like that. Sure, there are assholes in all walks of life but it makes you look like a fool when you make a generalization like that.




By nature killing is cruel, from that axiom I am totally willing to deduce that not recognizing that is stupid. So I fail to see how this is a generalizatrion. You cannot be a hunter and not be cruel, so either it's plain stupidity or cognative dissonance and refusal to engage with empathy which is a lack of emotional awareness which stems from stupidity. Now I think that can change with some education. 

Now to address your other points. You are building a strawman argument out of things I never professed support for. I am anti-hunting, I am anti-fishing and I am also anti-monocrop farming. I have no problem with GMO's inherently, but with the companies that amount to patent trolls, patenting genetics and the reasons they GMO crops to be round-up ready and the like(where round-up has been linked repeatedly to cancer). I think we can have a really great agricultural system if we replace all the cattle land with organic farms that don't practice monoculture. 

Now I know from looking at data that is readily available that raising animals for meat requires more land for crops to feed them than if we just ate plants. Thats a fact. Now extrapolate that to the wildlands. The deer people shoot, were out here grazing, by not allowing predators like wolves to thrive and work naturally on deer populations so that we can hunt them, we are literally changing the landscape of America. This was documented in Yellowstone. Farmers around Yellowstone hunted the wolves there into extinction, that led to a massive overpopulation of deer that began to thrive in places they dare not go when the wolves were there. They ate the plants away from riverbeds which literally changed the path of the rivers. When wolves were re-introduced it went back to it's normal path. By eating only plants, we actually use and abuse less wildnerness land than if we allow people to hunt. Next it's not just a few hunters in woods. Go to Pennsylvania during hunting season. You can look up on the gamelands by the AT there and see those blaze orange jackets every 30 yards or so. I'm amazed there areen't more hunting accidents. What I am not amazed by is thee sheer amount of trash they leave behind. You kick the dirt there and some buried trash goes flying. It's not THAT bad here in the seirras, but it's closer than you would expect for how remote it is. I went hiking up by trumble lake, which is supposed to be a remote area, but I found trash bags full of cans all over the place, bullet casings and evidence people were up there plinking cans without regard for the lead in the ammunition, which ends up in the lake over time, which bio-accumulates in the fish, which then they likely eat and it bio-accumulates in humans as well.

There are many problems with hunting for your meat, many of which I just laid out. Ignoring those problems because you just like meat so damn much is cognitive dissonance, it's basically willful ignorance and is stupid. You can educate yourself and become less stupid. I used to eat meat. I don't anymore, largely because of my love of animals and the wild places that are better off with no people around, because we feel entitled to take from those places. Why are you entitled to the life you took, or the land you took it on if you are willing to give nothing back to that land? The best way to give back is to support re-introduction of predators and to interact with that land as little as possible. Leave no trace. No garbage, no bullet casings, no fishing lines, no beer cans, nothing.


----------



## iamwhatiam

fimbulvetr said:


> By nature killing is cruel, from that axiom I am totally willing to deduce that not recognizing that is stupid. So I fail to see how this is a generalizatrion. You cannot be a hunter and not be cruel, so either it's plain stupidity or cognative dissonance and refusal to engage with empathy which is a lack of emotional awareness which stems from stupidity. Now I think that can change with some education.
> 
> Now to address your other points. You are building a strawman argument out of things I never professed support for. I am anti-hunting, I am anti-fishing and I am also anti-monocrop farming. I have no problem with GMO's inherently, but with the companies that amount to patent trolls, patenting genetics and the reasons they GMO crops to be round-up ready and the like(where round-up has been linked repeatedly to cancer). I think we can have a really great agricultural system if we replace all the cattle land with organic farms that don't practice monoculture.
> 
> Now I know from looking at data that is readily available that raising animals for meat requires more land for crops to feed them than if we just ate plants. Thats a fact. Now extrapolate that to the wildlands. The deer people shoot, were out here grazing, by not allowing predators like wolves to thrive and work naturally on deer populations so that we can hunt them, we are literally changing the landscape of America. This was documented in Yellowstone. Farmers around Yellowstone hunted the wolves there into extinction, that led to a massive overpopulation of deer that began to thrive in places they dare not go when the wolves were there. They ate the plants away from riverbeds which literally changed the path of the rivers. When wolves were re-introduced it went back to it's normal path. By eating only plants, we actually use and abuse less wildnerness land than if we allow people to hunt. Next it's not just a few hunters in woods. Go to Pennsylvania during hunting season. You can look up on the gamelands by the AT there and see those blaze orange jackets every 30 yards or so. I'm amazed there areen't more hunting accidents. What I am not amazed by is thee sheer amount of trash they leave behind. You kick the dirt there and some buried trash goes flying. It's not THAT bad here in the seirras, but it's closer than you would expect for how remote it is. I went hiking up by trumble lake, which is supposed to be a remote area, but I found trash bags full of cans all over the place, bullet casings and evidence people were up there plinking cans without regard for the lead in the ammunition, which ends up in the lake over time, which bio-accumulates in the fish, which then they likely eat and it bio-accumulates in humans as well.
> 
> There are many problems with hunting for your meat, many of which I just laid out. Ignoring those problems because you just like meat so damn much is cognitive dissonance, it's basically willful ignorance and is stupid. You can educate yourself and become less stupid. I used to eat meat. I don't anymore, largely because of my love of animals and the wild places that are better off with no people around, because we feel entitled to take from those places. Why are you entitled to the life you took, or the land you took it on if you are willing to give nothing back to that land? The best way to give back is to support re-introduction of predators and to interact with that land as little as possible. Leave no trace. No garbage, no bullet casings, no fishing lines, no beer cans, nothing.


Life takes other life to sustain it. When you eat tofu or vegetables, you are still taking a life. I won't let anyone make me feel guilty for taking a life because o like the taste of meat. If that makes me stupid or a bad person in your eyes I really don't give a fuck. I do it responsibly. I never take more than I need and I don't trash the land. Many other hunters and fisherman have the same principles. Even when I harvest plants from the wild, I'm conscious of how much I take.

I've given back to the land quite a bit picked up more than my fair share of trash in the woods and have helped with numerous rehabilitation projects in the states, helping plant endangered and native plants.


----------



## fimbulvetr

SaltyCrew said:


> Lol...how would you ever provide for yourself, if that was your goal, with this mentality? Did Lewis and Clark pull over at Taco Bell when they got hungry?
> 
> 
> You've done gone and contradicted yourself now.
> 
> You've never been more than 7 miles from a road? You should explore more, in my opinion. Keep wandering, you'll get more than 7 miles from a road eventually.






You literally cannot get more than 7 miles from a road. That is a fact. The furthest from a road in the US you can be is in Yellowstone NP and it's about 7 miles. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Please show me my contradiction. We are not Lewis and Clark you dumb shit. I provide for myself the same way most people in the US do. I work, I take my money to a grocery store, a farmers market, etc and I buy food. The difference is I only buy food from plants. Lewis and Clark were a scourge on the wilderness they ventured into, which has not been the same since. This wildness of this country would have been much better off had they never encountered it or had the indigenous people they met murdered them somewhere along the way. So you also have built a straw-man without even stopping to digest a single thing I actually said. People have been farming for a long, long time and what necessitated lewis clark going west, nothing really, they could have stayed put, subsistence farmed, but they brought to fruition one of the biggest scars on Amerikkkan history, via manifest destiny, which led directly to the trail of tears. Their going west was terrible for all the people, animals and frankly plants that were thriving before they did so.


----------



## fimbulvetr

iamwhatiam said:


> Life takes other life to sustain it. When you eat tofu or vegetables, you are still taking a life. I won't let anyone make me feel guilty for taking a life because o like the taste of meat. If that makes me stupid or a bad person in your eyes I really don't give a fuck. I do it responsibly. I never take more than I need and I don't trash the land. Many other hunters and fisherman have the same principles. Even when I harvest plants from the wild, I'm conscious of how much I take.
> 
> I've given back to the land quite a bit picked up more than my fair share of trash in the woods and have helped with numerous rehabilitation projects in the states, helping plant endangered and native plants.




The part you should feel guilty about and I suspect you already do, because if you truly didn''t give a fuck you wouldn't be writing back, is this; It is totally unnecessary to eat meat. Your enjoyment does not preempt another beings right to life. Plants are not considered sentient, even considering the whole mother tree research that came out recently. In fact what that demonstrates is that it is much harder to kill a plant than mammal for example. If you kill a mammal, it's genetic material ceases to grow, not so with plants and fungi, in fact fungi mycellia continues to thrive after you harvest the fruiting bodies, sometimes even more so. Most plants we eat are annuals, they will die at the end of the year, many are already dead when we harvest them, however very few are actually killed because we harvest them and those that are were at the end of their life cycle and were going to die soon. That is not so with animals, most animals we kill are quite young compared to their potential life span and your enjoyment of that flesh in no way makes up for the life you robbed them of. Now I think you have significantly derailed this conversation into one about veganism, but that doesn't mean I'm going to just let it go. No matter what issues you care about, I can come up with a good reason to be vegan. Is it the environment? Veganism is better for that than eating meat and there is peer reviewed research supporting that(Here is an article that sums up some of the facts found in much of that research: Environment - https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/environment), is it animal rights(I know it's not), but obviously it's better, do you want less living things overall to have to die? We farm and thus kill more plants to feed the animals we eat than is necessary to just feed the human population. Is it human rights? Veganism can feed more people less expensively. Is it health? Veganism is recommended for heart health by the American Heart Association. Is it that you want great tasting food? I can make you some vegan food that will make you forget about meat, there is also lab grown meat for people who think they can't live without it. You actually don't have to kill anything to survive, there are janists who only eat parts of plants that don't kill the plants to harvest. Now that we've gone down this path, feel free to do what you want with your life, but do so now being informed that there is a better, smarter, healthier, more ecologically friendly way you could be living and you are choosing not too. I think that is textbook cognitive dissonance.


----------



## iamwhatiam

fimbulvetr said:


> The part you should feel guilty about and I suspect you already do, because if you truly didn''t give a fuck you wouldn't be writing back, is this; It is totally unnecessary to eat meat. Your enjoyment does not preempt another beings right to life. Plants are not considered sentient, even considering the whole mother tree research that came out recently. In fact what that demonstrates is that it is much harder to kill a plant than mammal for example. If you kill a mammal, it's genetic material ceases to grow, not so with plants and fungi, in fact fungi mycellia continues to thrive after you harvest the fruiting bodies, sometimes even more so. Most plants we eat are annuals, they will die at the end of the year, many are already dead when we harvest them, however very few are actually killed because we harvest them and those that are were at the end of their life cycle and were going to die soon. That is not so with animals, most animals we kill are quite young compared to their potential life span and your enjoyment of that flesh in no way makes up for the life you robbed them of. Now I think you have significantly derailed this conversation into one about veganism, but that doesn't mean I'm going to just let it go. No matter what issues you care about, I can come up with a good reason to be vegan. Is it the environment? Veganism is better for that than eating meat and there is peer reviewed research supporting that(Here is an article that sums up some of the facts found in much of that research: Environment - https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/environment), is it animal rights(I know it's not), but obviously it's better, do you want less living things overall to have to die? We farm and thus kill more plants to feed the animals we eat than is necessary to just feed the human population. Is it human rights? Veganism can feed more people less expensively. Is it health? Veganism is recommended for heart health by the American Heart Association. Is it that you want great tasting food? I can make you some vegan food that will make you forget about meat, there is also lab grown meat for people who think they can't live without it. You actually don't have to kill anything to survive, there are janists who only eat parts of plants that don't kill the plants to harvest. Now that we've gone down this path, feel free to do what you want with your life, but do so now being informed that there is a better, smarter, healthier, more ecologically friendly way you could be living and you are choosing not too. I think that is textbook cognitive dissonance.


Do you use fossil fuels at all?


----------



## fimbulvetr

iamwhatiam said:


> Do you use fossil fuels at all?




So you do care actually? Here is the thing about fossil fuels. Animal Agriculture releases more carbon than fossil fuels at this point. If I could afford an electric car, that's what I'd have, but I live in a van, so by nature of living in the world we currently inhabit, where I am forced by capitalism to work to live, rather than subsitence farm on a homestead, which is what I'd rather be doing, so yes I use fossil fuels and I drive on roads that contain animal by products, which is also a decision I cannot control. However the things I can control. I do. I have solar panels on my van and I refill my batteries and dilute the acid solution as best I can before disposing of it. But guess where I don't throw it when I'm done? The forest. My point is, humans are hugely impactful everywhere we go, even just in considering soil compaction. We have removed hundreds of years of top soil production in most of the places we inhabit. Now I believe the earth would be better off if we quarantine our effects to the densely populated city centers and leave as little a trace as possible in the wild places. Even the fires in california have gotten worse largely because humans have moved out from the cities and built flammable structures all over the place and most of the fires that happen are human caused and preventable. I could go down the road of talking about veganism and the places that can be impactful and I will also say this, because of the structure of our society, nobody can be perfectly vegan or perfectly sustainable, however there are things we can easily do which would make a huge impact. I think its sad we have to go out and control invasives and help endangered plants and animals to thrive and honestly I don't think that is giving back, that is simply just repairing damage and it's not even proving particularly effective. Look at stilt grass and Japanese Knotweed, there is nothing humans can or are willing to do to eradicate those things. They are now very much a part of the forest ecosystem collapse happening in Eastern America. That is the human legacy unfortunately.


----------



## iamwhatiam

fimbulvetr said:


> So you do care actually? Here is the thing about fossil fuels. Animal Agriculture releases more carbon than fossil fuels at this point. If I could afford an electric car, that's what I'd have, but I live in a van, so by nature of living in the world we currently inhabit, where I am forced by capitalism to work to live, rather than subsitence farm on a homestead, which is what I'd rather be doing, so yes I use fossil fuels and I drive on roads that contain animal by products, which is also a decision I cannot control. However the things I can control. I do. I have solar panels on my van and I refill my batteries and dilute the acid solution as best I can before disposing of it. But guess where I don't throw it when I'm done? The forest. My point is, humans are hugely impactful everywhere we go, even just in considering soil compaction. We have removed hundreds of years of top soil production in most of the places we inhabit. Now I believe the earth would be better off if we quarantine our effects to the densely populated city centers and leave as little a trace as possible in the wild places. Even the fires in california have gotten worse largely because humans have moved out from the cities and built flammable structures all over the place and most of the fires that happen are human caused and preventable. I could go down the road of talking about veganism and the places that can be impactful and I will also say this, because of the structure of our society, nobody can be perfectly vegan or perfectly sustainable, however there are things we can easily do which would make a huge impact. I think its sad we have to go out and control invasives and help endangered plants and animals to thrive and honestly I don't think that is giving back, that is simply just repairing damage and it's not even proving particularly effective. Look at stilt grass and Japanese Knotweed, there is nothing humans can or are willing to do to eradicate those things. They are now very much a part of the forest ecosystem collapse happening in Eastern America. That is the human legacy unfortunately.


I'm at work so I don't have time to write a long answer. But I definitely do not believe exclusion from the wilderness is the answer. I for one would not do well mentally living in a city or big town cut off from the wilderness. I would lose my sanity.


----------



## iamwhatiam

For someone who is strongly FOR quarantining people from the wilderness, why not start with yourself? I've never met you in person, so I'm not trying to judge...so forgive me, but gotta say....you sound like one of those pious people who like to stand and preach from their pulpit on the street and point the condemning finger towards everyone who passes. Or maybe a flagellant from centuries ago who would flog himself.



fimbulvetr said:


> humans are hugely impactful everywhere we go, even just in considering soil compaction.


so are other animal species. large herds of elk, bison, or other animals can trample and decimate vegetation and compact prairie soils where they graze. they also help cause more erosion. they shit in freshwater sources and also spread diseases.



fimbulvetr said:


> Even the fires in california have gotten worse largely because humans have moved out from the cities and built flammable structures all over the place and most of the fires that happen are human caused and preventable.


More fires happen when there are drought conditions coupled with dead timber and undergrowth ,and forest lands not being managed properly. From what I have learned, Native americans used to manage their lands by using controlled burns. They knew that (controlled) forest fires were part of a healthy ecosystem. They replentish nutrients to the soil, help new young undergrowth sprout and grow providing new food source and habitat for animals, and kill off diseased trees and plants. Some plants and trees actually require stratification by fire to sprout. Forest fires in and of themselves aren't a bad thing, and they happen naturally without human aid. But yeah, I agree there are idiots who shouldn't be allowed near a flame out in the woods....always make completely sure your fire is put out before you leave if there is a chance that it might spread.



fimbulvetr said:


> I think its sad we have to go out and control invasives and help endangered plants and animals to thrive and honestly I don't think that is giving back, that is simply just repairing damage and it's not even proving particularly effective.


Yes it is sad, but at least it's doing something. But these types of efforts ARE effective. When we lived on Oahu, we helped out quite a bit with Kaena Point restoration projects (one of the more remote spots on the island) and worked with school children who would come out to volunteer and learn. Ka‘ena Point Ecosystem Restoration Project - https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/ecosystems/nars/oahu/kaena/ecosystem-restoration/
Pulling up invasive plants and planting native endangered plants in their place, which not only helped control erosion on the sand dunes there but also provided much needed habitat for one of the largest seabird colonies found on the Hawaiian islands. Albatross populations are continuing to climb to record highs because of efforts from people like us who care to "give back to the aina". Also, the planting of native plants on the dunes has helped protect ancient Hawaiian burial sites that would otherwise get torn up by 4 wheelers and campers.

This is just one example where giving back helps. Even if it is just "damage control" in your eyes. Better than sitting at home and complaining about it on the internet.




fimbulvetr said:


> Now I believe the earth would be better off if we quarantine our effects to the densely populated city centers and leave as little a trace as possible in the wild places.


But that will NEVER happen. I think, rather, we should encourage more people to spend time in the wilderness and form a deep connection with it. But we need to educate our children and teach them to love and respect the natural world. Teach our children that we are not seperate from nature but a PART of it and every action has a reaction or consequence; everything is connected in some way.


----------



## iamwhatiam

fimbulvetr said:


> You literally cannot get more than 7 miles from a road. That is a fact.


Maybe the Everglades down in Florida or Frank Church River of No Return Wilderness Area over in Idaho?


----------



## blank

Are you guys still pussyaching about old glampers leaving adult diapers on the ground or whatever?


----------



## roughdraft

fimbulvetr said:


> You literally cannot get more than 7 miles from a road. That is a fact. The furthest from a road in the US you can be is in Yellowstone NP and it's about 7 miles. Sorry to burst your bubble.



I don´t think there´s any bubble burstin goin on here - people cut corners, skew and fuck up their measurements providing their "statistics" all the damn time. Basically, take your "fact" with a grain of salt - and I´m just pointing this out to you because you seem to be really, really emotional about this whole thing, and I don´t think it´s worth it dude...


----------



## dumpster harpy

Hey fimbul, I like how you use the indigenous peoples of North America as a tool to try to justify your chosen radical position while simultaneously advocating for the end of many traditional lifeways and their removal from the "wilderness." nice.


----------



## fimbulvetr

dumpster harpy said:


> Hey fimbul, I like how you use the indigenous peoples of North America as a tool to try to justify your chosen radical position while simultaneously advocating for the end of many traditional lifeways and their removal from the "wilderness." nice.




The two points are separate. I'm not using anybody as a tool. that's just like your opinion man. The point is, nobody is living off the land anymore. nobody is subsistence hunting in the sierras, we cannot go back to a time before Europeans fucked up the balance of ecosystems that used to exist, nor were indigenous people perfect conservationists. I think you failed to extract those points because you want to build a strawman fallacy out of some identity politics point, why dont we keep on point. If you have something to say that contradicts my points, Id love to hear it, if not I'm not interested in the ad hominym implied attack.


----------



## fimbulvetr

Here is the thing guys. None of you know me at all. You want to attack my post for whatever not that constructive reason, cool. That was my experience. You have a different one? post it, I wont be a dick and attack you for it. I was posting to be helpful. I'm really disappointed by the responses and don't worry it won't happen again. I was gonna post some code and instructions for DIYing some stuff on a van that's been really helpful for me. Kind of don't really feel like this is the right community for doing that right now and maybe I'm mischaracterizing based on a few bad apples, but I just don't feel like doing the work to be helpful when all ya'll can do is complain. You think if I had a shitty experience with this its my fault, that's not really a helpful opinion for either of us and I'm not really sure what expressing it does for you, but like I said you don't know me personally and yet some of you want to personally attack me. Fuck off. Who needs you. I'm done with this thread and possibly this site. You'll probably pat yourself on the back, but there fact is that is really you're problem, not mine. I know I didn't fo anything wrong. I know now that this line of work isn't for me and maybe some other people will see this and avoid getting stuck like I did. I'm on to greener pastures because I'm not hardcore enough yo endure the Sierras or whatever mythology you've cracked it up to be. I've got better shot to do that listen to you neg on me for no really good reason.


----------



## Deleted member 23824

fimbulvetr said:


> Here is the thing guys. None of you know me at all. You want to attack my post for whatever not that constructive reason, cool. That was my experience. You have a different one? post it, I wont be a dick and attack you for it. I was posting to be helpful. I'm really disappointed by the responses and don't worry it won't happen again. I was gonna post some code and instructions for DIYing some stuff on a van that's been really helpful for me. Kind of don't really feel like this is the right community for doing that right now and maybe I'm mischaracterizing based on a few bad apples, but I just don't feel like doing the work to be helpful when all ya'll can do is complain. You think if I had a shitty experience with this its my fault, that's not really a helpful opinion for either of us and I'm not really sure what expressing it does for you, but like I said you don't know me personally and yet some of you want to personally attack me. Fuck off. Who needs you. I'm done with this thread and possibly this site. You'll probably pat yourself on the back, but there fact is that is really you're problem, not mine. I know I didn't fo anything wrong. I know now that this line of work isn't for me and maybe some other people will see this and avoid getting stuck like I did. I'm on to greener pastures because I'm not hardcore enough yo endure the Sierras or whatever mythology you've cracked it up to be. I've got better shot to do that listen to you neg on me for no really good reason.



Bye.
Don’t let the door knob hit you where the Good Lord split you.


----------



## Coywolf

Man, I can't wait till I get done firefighting in *wilderness* to respond to this thread. It shall be revived in 14 days.....


----------

