# You can't change the system through the system (OCCUPY?)



## BenjaminHunter

Lately, at events, I’ve seen a growing trend towards pro-authoritarian ideas. Everyone is looking to their governments to save them. The liberals are claiming the occupy movement now, and I’ve all but lost faith in it. I do agree that corporations are not people, and I agree with many of their other ideals as well, but the problem is that they expect their governments, a few wasps, to fix everything. The reality is that the government played a huge role in creating these problems and they have no intention of fixing them.
I cannot support any pro-authoritarian legislation, even if it does put corporations in their place. Governments are a bigger concern than corporations because governments have much more power. You’re born into them. You cannot resist. In the case of corporations, they cannot, at least not yet, coerce you to buy their products. Also, the government is completely polluted by the men who run the corporations, e.g., Michael Taylor, a former executive of corporate monster, Monsanto, is the senior advisor to the commissioner of the FDA. Therefore, even if anti-corporate legislation was introduced, it would never pass.
We have to get over the fallacy that governments can save us, or this movement will only go backwards.
So, that brings us to the question, “How can we push back the corporate beast?” The answer is this. We stop buying their products. Are we so much like sheep that we need the governments help to protect ourselves from our own bad habits? Boycotts have proven to be extremely effective. One of the earliest examples was the boycott in England of sugar produced by slaves. In 1791, after Parliament refused to abolish slavery, thousands of pamphlets were printed encouraging the boycott. Sugar sales dropped between a third and a half. By contrast sales of Indian sugar, untainted by slavery, rose tenfold in two years.
Other ways to push back would be through direct actions, such as occupations (taking back land), sabotage, black blocs, education, buying locally, starting your own farm, etc.
Corporations are not immortal. They fall, as do governments. We need to, rather than working with our oppressors, destroy their means of oppression. Conflict Gypsies unite!

P.S. Anyone going to NATO summit in Chicago? Should be fun. Hope to meet some travelers.


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## Pheonix

like you said the problem is the more the government and less the corporations, how are you going to boycott the government? tell the cops your boycotting their authority over you and see where that gets ya.

I don't understand why you started talking about the government being the real problem and then stated a solution that is only affective against companies?

most people nowadays know their favorite pair of sneakers is made by chinese slave children and they still buy them. boycotts are becoming increasingly less affective.


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## BenjaminHunter

pheonix said:


> like you said the problem is the more the government and less the corporations, how are you going to boycott the government? tell the cops your boycotting their authority over you and see where that gets ya.
> 
> I don't understand why you started talking about the government being the real problem and then stated a solution that is only affective against companies?
> 
> most people nowadays know their favorite pair of sneakers is made by chinese slave children and they still buy them. boycotts are becoming increasingly less affective.


 
Well, I wrote this essay in response to my occupy, who were attempting to use the government against the corporations, so the point was mostly to downplay that approach and bring about new ones, that wouldn't aid any enemy. Yeah, though. It seems that people are more worried about their comfort, then the lives of those they can't see. I've yet to find a way to combat this, besides showing people better, cheaper, less heinous alternatives, which are rare. demarketing is a nice strategy, as is subvertising.

With government, I would just suggest quitting one's job, so you can stop paying taxes, and then starting self sustainable communes, with apt defense, and getting your message out. Showing people how positive life could be would be necessary, since most everyone is an egoist, whether they admit it or not. We'll just undermine the gov, staying in "the shadows" until we have a majority. I realize this will take years, but it's possible, in my opinion.


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## Pheonix

BenjaminHunter said:


> Yeah, though. It seems that people are more worried about their comfort, then the lives of those they can't see.


 
what's wrong with putting yourself first? The only reason I'm still alive is because I look out for myself first.

If 7 third world children have to starve to death in order for me to eat comfortably, then death to the children.

but your right convincing someone to make their lives harder to make your life more comfortable is not an easy task, but it can be done. But all the times it was done was by religions, governments and private organizations that used mass control tactics.

The problem you are having is due to the fact that your enemies are way better at controlling the masses then you.


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## nostrumfiend

pheonix said:


> what's wrong with putting yourself first? The only reason I'm still alive is because I look out for myself first.
> 
> If 7 third world children have to starve to death in order for me to eat comfortably, then death to the children.
> 
> but your right convincing someone to make their lives harder to make your life more comfortable is not an easy task, but it can be done. But all the times it was done was by religions, governments and private organizations that used mass control tactics.
> 
> The problem you are having is due to the fact that your enemies are way better at controlling the masses then you.


 
The problem is in America most people don't "eat comfortably" or do anything comfortably. Everything is in excess.


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## Pheonix

nostrumfiend said:


> The problem is in America most people don't "eat comfortably" or do anything comfortably. Everything is in excess.


 
when you say most americans your talking about the 99%, right? most americans are poor and middle-class


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## BenjaminHunter

pheonix said:


> what's wrong with putting yourself first? The only reason I'm still alive is because I look out for myself first.
> 
> If 7 third world children have to starve to death in order for me to eat comfortably, then death to the children.
> 
> 
> The problem you are having is due to the fact that your enemies are way better at controlling the masses then you.


 
Well, I'd rather die then be involved in the death of others, but that's personal. I feel secure in my life and my death, but I don't know about others, nor do I have the right to choose whether or not another being lives or dies, in my opinion. And yeah, I'm fighting an uphill battle, but it's fun, I'm making friends along the way, and I feel satisfied with it.


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## nostrumfiend

pheonix said:


> when you say most americans your talking about the 99%, right? most americans are poor and middle-class


Yeah that's what I meant good call. The 1% are people living well outside of what would be viewed as necessary by the rest of the country and that comparison is even more extreme when comparing the rest of the world.


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## scatwomb

I am going to Chicago for the NATO party.


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## Alaska

Even the poor and middle class live in excess. Smoking, drinking, cable, semi-fancy pasta dinners, fast food, beeeeef, fake beeeef, nail clippers, vehicles, cell phones, holiday celebrations, soda, etc. We consume excessively because of the depression caused from the basic tenets of an oppressive society, which usually leads to a defeatist lifestyle.

The rich spend more on shit they don't need, but the poor are forced to grow into the only thing they know: Capitalism.

A fitting quote: "I suppose it is tempting, if the only tool you have is a hammer, to treat everything as if it were a nail."


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## BenjaminHunter

@Scatwomb Like a specific party or are you talking about the whole escapade? I'm so excited.

@Alaska Yeah, we don't know how to fill the wholes left in our hearts that are a direct result of capitalism: alienation. Everybody is an enemy in this society. Competition rather than cooperation. Community is a necessity to humanity, but it's decaying and people don't know how to replace it. They try to fill it with sex, drugs, whatever, but it wont be full until you leave the confines and mentalities of capitalism.

The poor are made dependent on the rich, because if they were free, the rich would have to take responsibility for their reactions and work, rather than just owning the means of work. Money is totally evil, and a weapon utillized by the rich. Sick of it.


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## Earth

Just remember this:
The Corporations RUN the U.S. Government.

They dictate who we go to war with, who lives, and who dies.....

I stopped voting and caring once I realized that the U.S. govenment is in fact a puppet government, who's strings are pulled by the ultra rich behind the scenes.

Don't believe me??
Research all domestic and world policies from say 1977 on.........

You will be both very surprised - and really mad - once you find out that no matter which party is in charge, it's simply "meet the new boss, same as the old boss".

I've been using the system to my adavantage for 25 years now.
Played by the rules, and have to admitt, the last 3 years were very difficult BUT now I'm set - and can finally live the life I really want to at age 47....

- and before you say, man you are fucking old - the last 25 years went by a whole lot faster than one would think.

Either path you take, be prepared to pay your dues so you can work to your advantage - not someone else's.
(meaning, you work to live, not live to work.... and the word work is being very loosely defined here)

Ain't no such thing as a free ride............
The games definately got a price.


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## Pheonix

I still don't understand why Occupiers post on a squatter/nomad/anarchist website about how fucked up the system is? are you trying to educate us on how fucked up the system is? WE CAN TEACH YOU SOME THINGS ABOUT THAT. do you think you can teach us how to boycott the government? most of us are already boycotting the government in the way you are talking about, I.E. not paying taxes, rent, utilities, gas, and about your self-sustainable commune idea, have you noticed how many commune threads are on this site.

I mean no offence, but if your intention is to teach us that the government is screwed-up, then your wasting your time cause we already know.


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## scatwomb

BenjaminHunter said:


> @Scatwomb Like a specific party or are you talking about the whole escapade? I'm so excited.


 
I am talking about the one where lots of some anarchists will get arrested for breaking a few windows and NATO members will eat fancy food while their troops are killing innocents. 

Get excited. Fuck pacifism.


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## BenjaminHunter

pheonix said:


> I mean no offence, but if your intention is to teach us that the government is screwed-up, then your wasting your time cause we already know.


 
I saw in the politics section a lot on the occupy movement, and I wanted to get my opinions out there. I copy and pasted my previous response to the "liberal" occupiers, and forgot to taper it. I realize that most members of the Punk Nomad are already taking part in the resistance. I guess I just wanted to foster conversation, and it worked so I feel good about that. I don't think you can speak for everyone though.

My intention wasn't to bring forth my esoteric knowledge and sprinkle it upon the community. : )


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## Pheonix

not trying to speak for everyone, just saying this was a mostly anarchist forum before the Occupy movement started. I've noticed the politics forum has become more pacifist in nature since the movement started.


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## NorFormaTality

BenjaminHunter said:


> Lately, at events, I’ve seen a growing trend towards pro-authoritarian ideas. Everyone is looking to their governments to save them. The liberals are claiming the occupy movement now, and I’ve all but lost faith in it. I do agree that corporations are not people, and I agree with many of their other ideals as well, but the problem is that they expect their governments, a few wasps, to fix everything. The reality is that the government played a huge role in creating these problems and they have no intention of fixing them.
> I cannot support any pro-authoritarian legislation, even if it does put corporations in their place. Governments are a bigger concern than corporations because governments have much more power. You’re born into them. You cannot resist. In the case of corporations, they cannot, at least not yet, coerce you to buy their products. Also, the government is completely polluted by the men who run the corporations, e.g., Michael Taylor, a former executive of corporate monster, Monsanto, is the senior advisor to the commissioner of the FDA. Therefore, even if anti-corporate legislation was introduced, it would never pass.
> We have to get over the fallacy that governments can save us, or this movement will only go backwards.
> So, that brings us to the question, “How can we push back the corporate beast?” The answer is this. We stop buying their products. Are we so much like sheep that we need the governments help to protect ourselves from our own bad habits? Boycotts have proven to be extremely effective. One of the earliest examples was the boycott in England of sugar produced by slaves. In 1791, after Parliament refused to abolish slavery, thousands of pamphlets were printed encouraging the boycott. Sugar sales dropped between a third and a half. By contrast sales of Indian sugar, untainted by slavery, rose tenfold in two years.
> Other ways to push back would be through direct actions, such as occupations (taking back land), sabotage, black blocs, education, buying locally, starting your own farm, etc.
> Corporations are not immortal. They fall, as do governments. We need to, rather than working with our oppressors, destroy their means of oppression. Conflict Gypsies unite!
> 
> P.S. Anyone going to NATO summit in Chicago? Should be fun. Hope to meet some travelers.


 
Very much my sentaments. I did not manage to get to the nato thing. would of loved to though. question is though...How do you get the occupy people to realize this...


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## billyriot

I've never been much for the Occupy movements, except for the fact that people are (or were) finally getting the idea of what solidarity means. Which is why I supported it for the first couple months. But then people started realizing that they can't make change just by sitting around with bullhorns and spewing the same 25 statistics over and over and over again. Soon, many occupations around the country died off. I pretty much saw this coming and tried to do my part to get people riled up and wanting to do more with the energy we had built up. I'm sorry but the 99% are pretty fucking lazy; not in the sense of holding jobs and voting for a newly elected fuck-up; but in the sense that they had to opportunity to actually do something, but threw it away. "I don't want to lose my job that I slave over day and night," or "I don't want to get arrested for interfering with police brutality"-- seriously? You can't expect to walk freely if you crawl under the foot of oppression.

And, as much as I'd love for every corporation to fall apart, most people are too comfortable living this meager life with their "necessities" to see any change, that will undoubtedly be very radical compared with the last 40 some odd years. Most I can think to do is try to help people become accustomed to change by encouraging a transition for them to be able to provide for themselves (boycott government/corporations), so that if/when things fall apart, no one is ripping at each others throats for bread.


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## NorFormaTality

It seems as if by the time they realize that they cant really vote and change it, it will already be over...


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## AnarchoNomad

The value of the "Occupy" movement is not in its ability to bring about change effectively (it won't. It is a liberal reformist movement, and relies on methods that are doomed to fail).

I see three areas where Occupy has proven to be crucial:

1. The camps showed people that communities can come together and find ways to take care of themselves.
2. It caused a lot of people to at least question what is going on around them (sadly many people just accepted the propaganda they were fed as answers, but at least questioning is a start).
3. It is beneficial to travelers because in many places you go "Occupy" serves as a sort of ready made community, and a hub to network and find others of similar mindsets.

People say Occupy is dead. They may be correct. I think the important thing is not to get hung up on "Occupy" itself, but instead take what we can from Occupy and build on it as we continue to explore resistance.


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## autumn

The problem with America right now is complacency. As long as people have full bellies and television, they won't get off of their asses to do anything about the world collapsing around them. Until they're destitute, their drinking water is dangerous, and their millions of sets of lungs are acting as filters for the air (think China) they will not fight for change. By then it will be too late.


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## p4r4d0x

The American People have become lazy and passive as fuck about politics in their country. Almost absolutely uninvolved.

We're talking about politicians here with absolutely no accountability whatsoever for their corrupted practices and actions against the self-interest of the American People. 

I remember when I was a very young man my great grand parents would listen to political talk radio all the time and I'd ask them why they listened to it constantly and how I thought it was boring.
They replied with how it was their civic duty, their responsibility to be politically involved for not only the well being of the country but for future generations.
Power corrupts.

Nowaday most people seem more selfish. Most places are less of a community and more like just groups of strangers living next to each other.

Interesting times we live in.


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## WithinuWithoutu

BenjaminHunter said:


> Well, I wrote this essay in response to my occupy, who were attempting to use the government against the corporations, so the point was mostly to downplay that approach and bring about new ones, that wouldn't aid any enemy. Yeah, though. It seems that people are more worried about their comfort, then the lives of those they can't see. I've yet to find a way to combat this, besides showing people better, cheaper, less heinous alternatives, which are rare. demarketing is a nice strategy, as is subvertising.
> 
> With government, I would just suggest quitting one's job, so you can stop paying taxes, and then starting self sustainable communes, with apt defense, and getting your message out. Showing people how positive life could be would be necessary, since most everyone is an egoist, whether they admit it or not. We'll just undermine the gov, staying in "the shadows" until we have a majority. I realize this will take years, but it's possible, in my opinion.


Good points!


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