# Sleeping concerns



## goobglib

Hi,

First, thanks for taking the time to read this thread. I'll get right to it: I've couchsurfed and vandwelled a hundred times (literally) without problems, but I have reservations about sleeping under the stars. My reservations are mostly about wildlife killing me. I've read up on wilderness safety here on StP and beyond, but, some circumstances seem to be out of one's control. I'm posting this thread with this new question: are these things simply "too bad" situations?

For example, let's say I smell like the peanut butter I ate for dinner and I lie down in the forest. I'm worried that I'm going to wake up to a nice mauling by a bear. To take another, what prevents a snake or scorpion or spider from bumping into me intro the middle of the night and out of their own fear, attacking me? If I'm on foot, it's unlikely that I'll be able to safely get to some medical help. If the creature is small enough, I might not even feel their bite, and it's possible that I simply wouldn't wake up, right? The same might apply to an encounter with a racoon of opossum. Trying to secure my food from them might wind up getting me bitten, and if the animal has rabies, this could be another fatality. Finally, anyone have any info on cougars? Are they a serious threat, especially alone?

I realize that these scenarios are merely hypothetical, but undeniably possible while wilderness living. Please excuse these worries of mine, I'm not backing down, just looking for some peace of mind. If I had a tribe of friends to go with, that'd be a different story. I'd think we could maybe scare off a threat! 

thanks in advance


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## The Hiker

With cogars/mountain lions/cats in general, they only hunt by stealth, so if you see one stalking you, the thing to do is flip out. Scream at it, throw anything you can, and if it bum rushes you, stab/club the shit out of it. Just put up as big a fight as you can. All that said, if you see one that isnt stalking you, just stay away from them, and they will probably leave you alone.

From my experience, a bear wont maul you in your sleep just for fun, but if there is food anywhere nearby, they may go for it. 

The best way to avoid bears is to be loud, metal objects clanging together is a very unnatural sound, and if a bear hears that they will probably stay away.

If you have food in the wilderness, store it AWAY FROM YOU, so if an animal tries to take it they wont run into you

One of my mentors was teaching a shelterbuilding class, and one student hung his food bag above his shelter. In the night, he woke up by a black bear jumping up and down on his shelter, trying to reach the food, so dont do that

Hope this helps, and if you have more questions, please ask!


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## goobglib

feral wanderer said:


> With cogars/mountain lions/cats in general, they only hunt by stealth, so if you see one stalking you, the thing to do is flip out. Scream at it, throw anything you can, and if it bum rushes you, stab/club the shit out of it. Just put up as big a fight as you can. All that said, if you see one that isnt stalking you, just stay away from them, and they will probably leave you alone.
> 
> From my experience, a bear wont maul you in your sleep just for fun, but if there is food anywhere nearby, they may go for it.
> 
> The best way to avoid bears is to be loud, metal objects clanging together is a very unnatural sound, and if a bear hears that they will probably stay away.
> 
> If you have food in the wilderness, store it AWAY FROM YOU, so if an animal tries to take it they wont run into you
> 
> One of my mentors was teaching a shelterbuilding class, and one student hung his food bag above his shelter. In the night, he woke up by a black bear jumping up and down on his shelter, trying to reach the food, so dont do that
> 
> Hope this helps, and if you have more questions, please ask!


Hey, thanks a ton for your reply. I didn't know that about cougars and now I do.

For bears and food, I've heard 100 feet distance from your sleeping area and the food. Does that sound about right?

Thanks again.


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## Deleted member 125

goobglib said:


> Hey, thanks a ton for your reply. I didn't know that about cougars and now I do.
> 
> For bears and food, I've heard 100 feet distance from your sleeping area and the food. Does that sound about right?
> 
> Thanks again.



ide say at the very least 200 feet. and hang yer food at least 20 feet high.


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## AAAutin

I shared the same concerns as you when I first started; every branch rustle, every falling leaf was a predator come to devour me. Shit, the first time I heard a coyote howl? I don't think I slept the rest of the night. But now, I find a pack's 3:00 AM roll call to be oddly comforting.

So, that's my biggest nugget of wisdom to impart: you get used to it. I'd suggest trying to start off in a tent, near some light, and not too far from a road. That should keep you fairly critter-free. Eventually, as you progress, you'll be able to get a good night's sleep spooning the earth in the middle of the darkest wood.

Then again, the worst I've faced is the odd rat or raccoon after my food. I'm still too spooked to (knowingly) camp in bear country. (There are far braver souls here who do so without blinking.) I'm sure you can find plenty advice, here and elsewhere, regarding that particular situation.

Above all else, remember that the vast majority of wildlife is far more afraid of you than you are of it. So, in that knowledge, carry yourself with a calm-yet-cautious confidence.


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## goobglib

cantcureherpes said:


> ide say at the very least 200 feet. and hang yer food at least 20 feet high.


Thanks for this.


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## goobglib

AAAutin said:


> I shared the same concerns as you when I first started; every branch rustle, every falling leaf was a predator come to devour me. Shit, the first time I heard a coyote howl? I don't think I slept the rest of the night. But now, I find a pack's 3:00 AM roll call to be oddly comforting.
> 
> So, that's my biggest nugget of wisdom to impart: you get used to it. I'd suggest trying to start off in a tent, near some light, and not too far from a road. That should keep you fairly critter-free. Eventually, as you progress, you'll be able to get a good night's sleep spooning the earth in the middle of the darkest wood.
> 
> Then again, the worst I've faced is the odd rat or raccoon after my food. I'm still too spooked to (knowingly) camp in bear country. (There are far braver souls here who do so without blinking.) I'm sure you can find plenty advice, here and elsewhere, regarding that particular situation.
> 
> Above all else, remember that the vast majority of wildlife is far more afraid of you than you are of it. So, in that knowledge, carry yourself with a calm-yet-cautious confidence.


This is incredibly helpful. I think you're right, I just need to build confidence and trust. And I'm sure you'll work your way up to bear country. Thanks a ton for this.


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## Notmyname

Black bears are like cougars, try and scare them off. A grizzly won't care though. It's really his choice if you live or die. Unless you have a big ass gun. And even then he still might win.


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## AlwaysLost

goobglib said:


> This is incredibly helpful. I think you're right, I just need to build confidence and trust. And I'm sure you'll work your way up to bear country. Thanks a ton for this.



I can also reassure you about the rabies. Most rabid creatures are big enough that you are going to feel it.
While smaller animals can carry rabies they tend not too.

Bats are the primary smaller animal that carry rabies. They could feasibly scratch you without you knowing. But in all my years camping I've never been accosted by a bat.

Humans with rabies (in america) is almost a non issue. Its a common misconception that rabies is incurable. That is not the case. Even if you are frothing at the mouth (happens like 1x per century). They can cure you.

The reason animals are put down is its not worth a 100k in medical bills to save them and pharms don't waste RD budgets for rabie cures for animals.

Rabies related deaths are typically from attacks but we are talking less than 10 ppl per year here.

Injury and medical emergencies are the primary cause of death in the wilderness. So stay hydrated and watch your step.

Ticks and mosquitoes are my biggest fear. And the darkness.
If anyone knows a cure for being afraid of the dark...


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## Notmyname

AlmostAlwaysLost said:


> I can also reassure you about the rabies. Most rabid creatures are big enough that you are going to feel it.
> While smaller animals can carry rabies they tend not too.
> 
> Bats are the primary smaller animal that carry rabies. They could feasibly scratch you without you knowing. But in all my years camping I've never been accosted by a bat.
> 
> Humans with rabies (in america) is almost a non issue. Its a common misconception that rabies is incurable. That is not the case. Even if you are frothing at the mouth (happens like 1x per century). They can cure you.
> 
> The reason animals are put down is its not worth a 100k in medical bills to save them and pharms don't waste RD budgets for rabie cures for animals.
> 
> Rabies related deaths are typically from attacks but we are talking less than 10 ppl per year here.
> 
> Injury and medical emergencies are the primary cause of death in the wilderness. So stay hydrated and watch your step.
> 
> Ticks and mosquitoes are my biggest fear. And the darkness.
> If anyone knows a cure for being afraid of the dark...


You could try a flashlight lol


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## AlwaysLost

Yeah nothing like seeing eyes glowing at you while you shoot the beam of light towards every rustle and twig snap until you face the terror of battery drain and the light slowly dimming into nothingness..

Not to mention creepers like this guy..


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## Notmyname

AlmostAlwaysLost said:


> Yeah nothing like seeing eyes glowing at you while you shoot the beam of light towards every rustle and twig snap until you face the terror of battery drain and the light slowly dimming into nothingness..
> 
> Not to mention creepers like this guy..



Sleep tight


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## landpirate

This makes me so relieved that I live in the UK and round here the scariest wildlife I'm going to encounter are the local people or maybe an angry badger. 

Honestly the thought of trying to sleep knowing bears are even a possibility makes me want to cry for my mum.

I encountered a snake here once and I think my screams were enough to scare it and every living thing for a good ten mile radius. 

You're all much braver than me.


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## AaronOnTheRoad

Dude, as I'm typing this I'm laying under a tree in a grave yard. I sleep anywhere I can


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## goobglib

landpirate said:


> This makes me so relieved that I live in the UK and round here the scariest wildlife I'm going to encounter are the local people or maybe an angry badger.
> 
> Honestly the thought of trying to sleep knowing bears are even a possibility makes me want to cry for my mum.
> 
> I encountered a snake here once and I think my screams were enough to scare it and every living thing for a good ten mile radius.
> 
> You're all much braver than me.


Is the UK pretty free of animals that can be dangerous to humans? I've heard of Australia being particularly hostile, but never the UK as being particularly safe.


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## goobglib

AaronOnTheRoad said:


> Dude, as I'm typing this I'm laying under a tree in a grave yard. I sleep anywhere I can


You're my sleeping hero


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## Coywolf

Here is my 2 cents:

-In Arcta, CA, I woke up to a possum sniffing my forehead. I opened my eyes to the famous "HISSS!" Sound they make. I almost peeded myself. It ran away.

-In Southern Utah I woke up to a strange cuddling sensation outside my bag, turned out a 4 foot rattle snake was using me for warmth during the night. I was terrified, but just went back to sleep (what else could you do?) And it was gone by morning.

-In Flagstaff,AZ I was tending a fire while extremely drunk. I shined my headlamp up to see a pair of eyes. ShiNed it to the side to see another. Then another. I was surrounded by a pack of coyotes smelling the beans I was cooking on a campfire. So I threw a rock. They got closer. Then another rock. Closer still. Those things never left me alone. It was scary. Never had a negative encounter with coyotes before then. They were in my camp all night, but never bothered me. They wanted the beans.

-In rocky Mountain national park, I was camped out with a Llama train deep in the backcountry. I had just fallen asleep when I heard a blood-curdling scream from my lamas. Then I heard huffing. Shit. I had to come out on my tent, in pitch black, to find a bear AND scare it away. When I got out of my tent I shined my light to the side and BAM! That huge black bear was no more than 5 feet in front of me. I yelled, and it ran away. Came back 3 times that night. Terrified me. All it wanted was the bear canister outside my camp. The bear rolled it a mile away, couldnt open it, gave up and left.

-In Northeastern Oregon I was surrounded by a pack of wolves in my camp. They smelt the steak I was eating. A few rounds popped off of my .40 scared them away real quick.

-In flagstaff I was also chased out of a cougar den in the middle of the night, but that was my dumb ass fault, trpiping on DXM and hiking in the wilderness at night.

I have not yet had a run in with a grizzly, but I do occasionally wake up screaming from bear mauling dreams while in new places camping.

As far as bugs, try to spray your gear with permethren, it is a chemical that keeps away ticks, spiders, and other creepy crawlies.

Moral of the story is, don't sleep with food or cook in your camp. Always carry protection (bear spray is the best), and use common sense while in the wilderness.

Animals do not attack for no reason at all. The exception to this are animals with rabies, predatory bears, moose, elephants, and rhinoceros, if any animals is approaching you and you feel strange about it, fight back, and be as loud and obnoxious as possible.


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## AAAutin

Coywolf said:


> In Southern Utah I woke up to a strange cuddling sensation outside my bag, turned out a 4 foot rattle snake was using me for warmth during the night.



Let me be the first to say: _fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck_ that.


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## ResistMuchObeyLittle

Mountain lions are the creepiest ones.. You more than likely wouldn't even see the attack coming. Bears usually run away. Don't even think about climbing a tree, as they can climb just as good as a damn cat and quick as fuck. Carry bear spray- even for the most dangerous animal there is-Humans. 
Rattle snakes warn you. 
Be sure to hang your food from a branch pretty high up and where a bear or other animal can not get to it. I always carry extra paracord or bankline with me. 
I'm more nervous about running into morons out in the wild than I am of animals. Humans are far more dangerous than they could ever be.


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## ResistMuchObeyLittle

Check out Clay Hays Survival gear list on youtube. He's got some great videos of survival gear and dealing with wildlife.


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## landpirate

goobglib said:


> Is the UK pretty free of animals that can be dangerous to humans? I've heard of Australia being particularly hostile, but never the UK as being particularly safe.



We have one type of venomous snake and that's called an Adder. I've never seen one and they are pretty shy and easily scared off. Their bite is more dangerous to dogs than humans to be honest.

We have spiders that can give you a nasty bite but nothing deadly. There's sometimes jelly fish in the sea that can sting you.

In the Scottish Highlands they have reintroduced wolves, but I doubt you're likely to bump into one.

So really no, we don't have much wildlife to worry about.


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## Hillbilly Castro

landpirate said:


> We have one type of venomous snake and that's called an Adder. I've never seen one and they are pretty shy and easily scared off. Their bite is more dangerous to dogs than humans to be honest.
> 
> We have spiders that can give you a nasty bite but nothing deadly. There's sometimes jelly fish in the sea that can sting you.
> 
> In the Scottish Highlands they have reintroduced wolves, but I doubt you're likely to bump into one.
> 
> So really no, we don't have much wildlife to worry about.



Boy, things have changed after a couple thousand years of civilization, eh?


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## William Howard 2

Ever consider buying a cheapo tent? It gives some a sense of security that can, especially for beginners, give them a better nights sleep. Alot of times practical advice about survival is given, but we don't always take into account the phycological impact of the lifestyle. I take a tent for that sense of well-being. 

In all honesty, exposure to the elements is your number one concern, not animals. If anything, the list goes weather first, humans second, and then I would put animal saftey after those. Your chances of overheating or hypothermia will kill you far easier then anything a critter will do. 

With that in mind protect yourself from the cold ground. They say "two blankets on top equal one on the bottom" Even better get a therma-rest camping mat. 

Good luck. It's always the man animals that I worry about the most.


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## Coywolf

For anyone with a fear of bears, I recommend watching the movie "Backcountry". It'll help alot


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## AAAutin

Coywolf said:


> For anyone with a fear of bears, I recommend watching the movie "Backcountry".



Double feature with GRIZZLY MAN?


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## Deleted member 2626

About the cheapie tent for security. If your gonna buy a tent spend the money and get a decent one you can get a decent one for a hundred bucks. I spend more night on the ground then indoors and use a tent most of those nights


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## William Howard 2

I tell beginners to get a cheapo tent because they may decide later that this isn't the lifestyle they want, that way they don't have to drop a hundred or more dollars on a tent. That's usually a lot of money, especially for those who don't have a steady income. And also so that they can get all the basic gear first and then upgrade when they have the money. A decent backpack, sleeping bag, and camp pad will already set most people back a few hundred dollars. 

Hope that makes sense.


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## Notmyname

William Howard 2 said:


> I tell beginners to get a cheapo tent because they may decide later that this isn't the lifestyle they want


Not only this but you might find that you simply don't wanna have a tent in your gear. I've never used one on the road cause the weight and bulk is just not worth it to me. And I love the speed of set-up/takedown and stealth of just laying on the ground, low tarp if it's raining.


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## Coywolf

Get a bivy. The best thing I ever did was invest in an Outdoor Research Advanced Bivy:

https://www.outdoorresearch.com/us/en/gear/gear/bivy-sacks/advanced-bivy/p/2428290202222


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## Notmyname

For a more affordable option if money is an issue, I've been looking into the military's MSS bivy. The old model can be had at a wonderful surplus price of like 50 bucks for full goretex in a stealthy camo.


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## Coywolf

I also have one of those USMC bivies. Those thing are great, indestructible, and not very heavy. Plentry of room inside. Sat out a downpour in Grand junction, perfectly dry. 

If you combine a bivy and a tarp to cover your pack, you are good anywhere. 

The only downsides are condensation inside and if you store it wet it will lose the waterproof.


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## Notmyname

Coywolf said:


> I also have one of those USMC bivies. Those thing are great, indestructible, and not very heavy. Plentry of room inside. Sat out a downpour in Grand junction, perfectly dry.
> 
> If you combine a bivy and a tarp to cover your pack, you are good anywhere.
> 
> The only downsides are condensation inside and if you store it wet it will lose the waterproof.


I was thinking a cool set up would be to sew a bugnet on the MSS bivy, and use a small tarp to cover the head end and pack. Then you can leave it open for temp and condensation control and still stay dry and bug free. 

I usually don't have much trouble with bugs but fuck when I do, it's unbearable and I can't sleep. Only happened that bad twice that I can remember. 

How long of wet storage will ruin it? Like if you get stuck in a few days of rain is it fucked?


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## Coywolf

Damn, that's a good idea. The only thing I would caution about is water leaking though the needle holes.

It's more of a "not drying out" thing. If you get the bivy wet, don't dry is out, and leave it in your pack for a few days it will develop mildew that will eat throw the waterproof coating. Just gotta dry it out after a rain. Having it up for like a week of rain won't do anything, just storing/rolling it up wet and leaving it that way.


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## Notmyname

Coywolf said:


> Damn, that's a good idea. The only thing I would caution about is water leaking though the needle holes.
> 
> It's more of a "not drying out" thing. If you get the bivy wet, don't dry is out, and leave it in your pack for a few days it will develop mildew that will eat throw the waterproof coating. Just gotta dry it out after a rain. Having it up for like a week of railways won't do anything, just storing/rolling it up wet and leaving it that way.



I would only net the area at the top and that will be under the small tarp.

Is it machine dryable? Cause like I'm thinking if it rains for a few days and you don't get a chance to let it dry, might cause a problem


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## Coywolf

Ya it should be able to dry in a "delicate" cycle. My bivy says that on the tag


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