# - abortion -



## veggieguy12

Inspired by the thread "Who's having kids?"...
Beyond religious moralism imposed by dogmatic nutcases, I don't see why it's such a taboo or a moral controversy. Nobody chastises or demonizes someone for having anything removed from their body, but assholes protest and slander and guilt & shame women who get abortions, and the more extreme end of this anti-choice position advocates killing abortion providers. What the fuck?

I understand someone not wanting to talk about their medical/body issues, but as much as someone can talk about any procedure or treatment, I think abortion ought to be as on-the-table and without question.
And I might agree that there's some life to what would, perhaps, eventually be born as a human baby. But there's also life to a sixth finger on a hand, or tumor growing in the brain, or the pancreas whose purpose in the body is not fully understood - yet nobody seems to have any qualms about removing these things.

So, to close this rant, I think that it's _*nobody*_* else's fucking business* what a woman does with her body, and I'm curious what other StP'ers think about this controversial topic.
(And if you take offense that I referred to so-called 'pro-life' protesters as "assholes", chances are good that you qualify as a self-righteous, judgmental, dogmatic asshole.)


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## devenheartbreak

Ok, I personally don't believe in abortion. I was brought up to believe that if you are woman enough to drop your panties, then you deal with the consequences. I don't care if other women have 49845734 abortions. I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I don't really want kids, but if it ever happened and I think I couldn't take care of a child, like I said in the other thread about having kids, I'd adopt it out. Bc theres tons of people who want them but can't have them. But, back on track, I think at the date of conception, it is still a living person. I also don't believe in using the morning after pill or Plan B either. But, thats just me.. And like Veggieguy said, its a persons own choice. And I think people should have the freedom of doing whatever they want if they get pregnant. People should always have the freedom of choice.


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## veggieguy12

devenheartbreak said:


> Ok, I personally don't believe in abortion. I was brought up to believe that if you are woman enough to drop your panties, then you deal with the consequences.



deven, perhaps you can help me understand your point of view: Why is having an abortion _not_ considered "dealing with the consequences" of sex?
I don't get it; I think having an abortion _IS_ a way of responsibly dealing with the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy.
It seems like you (and others) see 'being responsible' as limited to carrying to term and then birthing a child; what gives?

Arrow, thanks for sharing your story. Nobody needs to give personal details to explain her/his position, so your frankness is appreciated.


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## Beegod Santana

"Abortions for some, miniature american flags for others!"


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## soymilkshakes

Hahaha, well, I didn't want to start the topic, but since you asked..
Super 100% pro-choice, I am. Although I hate the bi-partisan options of being "pro-life" or "pro-choice" in a debate that should never have reached national politics as it is and just serves as a distraction from things that actually affect the world..
Anyway, I'm pro-women having control over their bodies. Unwanted pregnancies have been intentionally miscarried since the beginning of recreational fucking. I think more people could be happy with the idea if herbal abortions were more widespread than surgical. I think we should be able to take matters completely into our own hands (although of course sometimes herbal abortion doesn't succeed and surgical/medical is necessary) and learn how to really be tuned into our own bodies instead of having to rely on a doctor to vacuum out our uterus, ouch..
As for adoption, I think a lot of people underestimate the physical/psychological strain of carrying a child to term, connecting with it with in utero, giving birth (ouch, again), and then giving the child away. I, at least, would find that way more psychologically damaging than miscarrying the pregnancy while the thing was made up of a few cells.
Most of the debate, really, is based around the idea that human life is more important than other life. Fuck that, sanctity of life is every life or not at all.


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## ianfernite

I am 100% pro-abortion. If the numbers given on the "pro life" (bahahaha) shirts I've seen at school are accurate (which I doubt), abortion has prevented a lot of humans. I back that.


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## connerR

veggieguy12 said:


> deven, perhaps you can help me understand your point of view: Why is having an abortion _not_ considered "dealing with the consequences" of sex?
> I don't get it; I think having an abortion _IS_ a way of responsibly dealing with the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy.
> It seems like you (and others) see 'being responsible' as limited to carrying to term and then birthing a child; what gives?



I agree. My sister had a kid a while ago and now it's just chaos on the whole family. My mom more or less raises the kid, my parents are both taking on more work to pay for all the expenses, etc. All of this, it seems, is gonna be a hectic environment for my nephew to be growing up in. I feel that if you have a kid, it has to be in the absolute best environment possible, and a lot of unplanned pregnancies don't lead to that.

But moreover, I agree with Widerstand 100000%. This should be a debate amongst women, not men.


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## Angela

I am very prochoice and believe politicians and churches need to stay out of womens bodies. What really pisses me off most is that the people that like to scream about the sanctity of human life don't seem to give a shit about life after it's born. I think something is seriously fucked about their morals that they think it's not ok to have an abortion but they think it's fine to send people off to war, die of treatable medical conditions, live in impoverished conditions....the list could go on and on.


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## ianfernite

So-called "pro-lifers" are adorable. Against abortion, for the death penalty, for war, gun owners (that one is a generalization).

But yeah, I agree with most people here; abortion is a [biological] WOMAN'S decision. I just happen to think it's a good decision. Haha.


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## devenheartbreak

veggieguy12 said:


> deven, perhaps you can help me understand your point of view: Why is having an abortion _not_ considered "dealing with the consequences" of sex?
> I don't get it; I think having an abortion _IS_ a way of responsibly dealing with the consequences of an unplanned pregnancy.
> It seems like you (and others) see 'being responsible' as limited to carrying to term and then birthing a child; what gives?
> 
> Arrow, thanks for sharing your story. Nobody needs to give personal details to explain her/his position, so your frankness is appreciated.



I, personally don't believe in abortion. I'm not knockin' what others do. It is a choice. I just feel that if you knowingly have unprotected sex and get pregnant, then you should carry the baby and if you can't handle raising it, then adopt it out. I've said this before, other people want to have kids but can't. So, why have an abortion when someone else could give that child a good life and home? I knew this girl in high school who had quite a few abortions. And I just don't understand how you can get pregnant 5 times and abort them all and think thats its ok. I mean, where would you draw the line?


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## mkirby

I understand why someone wouldn't want to have an abortion, even in a bad situation where it's in the fetus's best interest to terminate. 

But I'm still pro-choice. 

I don't claim to really have a strong moral opinion about this; I think it's an issue that has two sides and that's still open to a lot of debate. 

I do know one thing though...

If you make something illegal, but it's still something that's relatively easy to, and that people want to do, people will still do it. But it will usually be more dangerous and unregulated.

When abortion was illegal before, we ended up with a lot of women injured and dying horrible painful deaths from botched abortions. For people who think human life above all else should be preserved, pro-lifers never seem to take this into account. 

It's similar to the flaws in the "war on drugs." Don't snort coke because you don't know what it's cut with or if it's funding terrorists. Well if it was legal, we WOULD know those things.

Anyway...that's all.


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## Ravie

well heres my standpoint: i'm pro-choice all the way. personally though, as long as it wasnt rape or from some disgraceful drunken night of accidental fucking, and i got pregnant from a guy i actually gave a fuck about then yeah, ide have the kid. but i'm not for abortions at all for myself. but i guess its easier for me because i dont require a "fuck" very often. Sex is great but i guess i'm one of those odd ones who actually has to care about someone before i indulge. although it disgusts me to know theres women out there having 10+ abortions in their life, fuck, its not my body so i could give a fuck less. i can definitely understand a younger girl getting prego on accident out of ignorance and getting an abortion or someone who just had a fucked up situation. but the women who piss me off are the ones who dont try to prevent getting prego at all and when they find out their pregnant are devastated and are like "i cant understand how this happened! he pulled out!" ....dumb dumb dumb. in their sense it should be illegal for them to even breed. to all is their own though.

as for herbal abortions and talk of how abortions have been around forever...yeah people have been getting abortions for a long time, but not nice ones. alot of women died from those and it wasnt herbal abortions either. it was bloody, painful, and involved unsanitary tools leading to either major blood loss or infection. and most of the time the women had absolutely no say in whether they wanted to keep the baby and were considered whores. as for herbal remedies, i wouldnt use those in a hundred years. every womens body is different and wont react the same to certain naturals. its a huge hazard. but i do have to say good job for trying to come up with an alternative. rant over.


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## mkirby

Yeah, fuck using a coat hanger.

Although when Bush was president and I was worried Roe vs. Wade might get overturned, I made two of my friends promise to falcon punch me if I got pregnant.


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## ianfernite

I've wanted to learn more about herbal abortions, but I'm afraid that I'd seriously injure someone by fucking it up, so I haven't even bothered looking into it.

I'll stick to safer hobbies. Like, erm ... hm ...


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## NickCofphee

devenheartbreak said:


> I've said this before, other people want to have kids but can't.
> So, why have an abortion when someone else could give that child a good life and home?



If someone wants a child, but can't, they should adopt. I think that's what you were implying though.

There's not a shortage of children in adoption agencies, foster care homes, etc. I don't think that not getting an abortion so that someone else can raise a child is very logical. There will always be unwanted, abused, parentless kids out there for loving parents to adopt.

Then again, it's not as if parents who adopt are always saints. Abuse happens to adopted and fostered children as well. My view on this might be biased though, my sister was adopted and raised lovingly and I was friends with the "foster parents" of the year growing up.


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## devenheartbreak

Widerstand said:


> What do you think then in cases where a rape took place, or the mothers life is in jeopardy?



Me and Matt have had this discussion a bunch of times too.. And if rape is involved its still her choice. And I have no problem with abortion. I've said that a bunch of times. Its just not for me. And as far as complications giving birth, every woman have a 50/50 chance of dieing everytime she gives birth. But not everybody realizes that. Its a choice. I still think adoption is a better choice.


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## soymilkshakes

50/50 chance of dying during childbirth? That absolutely can't be correct.


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## wartomods

devenheartbreak said:


> Me and Matt have had this discussion a bunch of times too.. And if rape is involved its still her choice. And I have no problem with abortion. I've said that a bunch of times. Its just not for me. And as far as complications giving birth, *every woman have a 50/50 chance of dieing everytime she gives birth.* But not everybody realizes that. Its a choice. I still think adoption is a better choice.



bs nowdays, and even back then


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## ianfernite

According to the kind people at Yahoo Questions, that figure is incorrect.

What are the chances of a female dying during birth? - Yahoo! Answers


And, according to this, even in the 1600s, the highest the figure got was 1:8 in the woman's lifetime (including all births)

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/childbirth.cfm

Then there's this: "The U.S. maternal mortality rate rose to 13 deaths per 100,000 live births in 2004, according to statistics released this week by the National Center for Health Statistics."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/08/24/health/main3202083.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_3202083

Although, apparently it is more likely to die during a Cesarean section than through squeezing it out..


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## Ravie

you should be a doctor.


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## veggieguy12

"Pro-Life" is not about babies, it's about subordinating women to men.
"Pro-Life" is about reinstating the man as the dominant force, the decision-making power-holder at the top of the family-unit pyramid.

Can I recommend some resources:
I got a pamphlet on Jane (Chicago's 1960's underground abortion service) at The Black Rose Collective in Portland, OR, and there's a documentary about JANE, too.
Some other recommended movies on this subject are "*If These Walls Could Talk*", and "*4 Months, 3 Weeks and 2 Days*", "*Vera Drake*", and the dark comedy "*Citizen Ruth*"; and these documentaries which I haven't seen: "*Unborn in the USA*" & "*Lake of Fire*" (long!, but with info about the doctor-killers).


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## mkirby

veggieguy12 said:


> "Pro-Life" is not about babies, it's about subordinating women to men.
> "Pro-Life" is about reinstating the man as the dominant force, the decision-making power-holder at the top of the family-unit pyramid.




Exactly.


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## NickCofphee

veggieguy12 said:


> "Pro-Life" is not about babies, it's about subordinating women to men.
> "Pro-Life" is about reinstating the man as the dominant force, the decision-making power-holder at the top of the family-unit pyramid.




True. Remember you can think abortion is unethical. But Pro-Life is saying "ILLEGAL". My friend made a good call on saying it's "putting a police state on a woman's body."


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## kai

I 100% agree with you. I think that the zine you mentioned on JANE is an excellent read for everyone. I'm sick of all these pro-life fucking assholes, preaching about their lord and his compassion and love for people then running around making other people's lives hell. If jesus were around i'm sure these fuckers would pin him up on cross and kill him to, right wing, religious moralists have got to be some of the most backwards ass shit heads this planet has to deal with.

Too bad all those pro-life, right winger dogmatic wingnuts parents didn't have abortions. 

I also think to justify not having an abortion by putting a child up for adoption is totally bogus. I'm totally pro-choice and think everyone gets theirs but fuck, how many kids already live in foster homes that have no one that wants them. I've known and met many of these kids and I have seen very clearly that growing up from foster home to foster home to group home has not done them alot of good. The amount of children who are put up for adoption to those adopted is not balanced. I mean practice birth control but shit, accidents happen. 

I also think that the statistic 50% of births could lead to death is totally bogus. 

I also think adoption is a great idea for people who want children and or if people just want to keep their family name going they could donate a bench to a park and get a plaque put on it.


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## ianfernite

I really wish I could find more 'pro-abortion' folks. I can't be the only one, right?


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## Dameon

I'm going to get a fetus out of a dumpster, get a taxidermist to stuff it, and turn it into "Pappy the Pro-Life Puppet".


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## ianfernite

Do you think you could keep your aborted fetus? Having one in a jar would make for an interesting centerpiece or something.


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## macks

kai said:


> I also think that the statistic 50% of births could lead to death is totally bogus.



I know, I'd put it at 100%.


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## drun_ken

veggieguy12 said:


> I
> 
> So, to close this rant, I think that it's _*nobody*_* else's fucking business* what a woman does with her body,



what about the father...i'm pro-choice....but my choice is let my child live please....don't get me wrong i'm not all about pushing out puppies left and right....and in the long run if the gurrl i got pregnat was set on abortion and i could not change her mind then i wouldn't hate her for it and short of trying some "boston legal" sue you cuz yer killing my kid bullshit what could i do....it upsets me when people leave the fathers out of this whole discussion....it takes two ta tango....


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## mkirby

When Frida Khalo's baby came out dead she made the doctors bring it to her in a jar and she painted a picture of it. 





ianfernite said:


> Do you think you could keep your aborted fetus? Having one in a jar would make for an interesting centerpiece or something.


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## drun_ken

ianfernite said:


> Do you think you could keep your aborted fetus? Having one in a jar would make for an interesting centerpiece or something.



there wer 2 kidws in athens ga...fuk what were their names...i can't remember but she had a miss...shade and chealsy...caraige they kept it in a jar in their freezer...side note they lived in a house that had the address "666 pulaskie"


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## Mouse

devenheartbreak said:


> . I don't care if other women have 49845734 abortions. I just couldn't bring myself to do it.



I used the say the same damn thing... and then the condom slipped off. shit happens. if you know damn well you can't take care of a kid, then you shouldn't have one. but even taking lenghts to protect yourself, things will still go wrong. as tough as you think you may be, you'll have to decided and at your age, more than likely, you'll make the same choice I did.

I had to have one recently. I was devastated. my fiance was devastated. it wasn't as easy as it seems. I knew as soon as the pink plus sign showed up that I couldn't have a child but damn it it was a painful choice. I wouldn't wish that type of situation on anyone. I even had people offering to take the kid if I carried it to term and I knew there was no way that would work. 

I think that, yes, it is the woman's choice but the man involved should have huge input. my man and I do want to have kids together, but there is no way we could do it now. 

I think abortion should be kept legal but more importantly it should be covered by health care providers and funds to help people get an abortion should be more accessible. In theory it seems like a no brainer.. I'm too broke to pay $400 to get this thing fixed, there's gotta be some woman's fund out there to help, right? Not really. Trust me, it's not as simple as you think. they will lend you money, maybe. but not likely. the only free money I came across was afund for people almost at the time limit, which if you didn't end up qualifying for some reason at the point the abortion would cost $200 more. Its completely a no win situation.


I think that one of the things that keeps abortions from being cheaper and more easily attainable is the pharmacy companies. they can't force feed you birth control for half your life if you have the option of condoms, plan b, or the unfortunate abortion cheaply available. even plan b costs jsut over $50 a pop. WHY? bullshit.


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## veggieguy12

When a man has to carry for 10 months, give the birth, nurse the infant, and not be able to bounce on the upbringing, then I'll give a shit what he says about it.
Fellas who want to have kids should talk about _her_ want before sticking and dicking, and fellas who don't wanna go for an abortion should get sterilized - only way to be sure.


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## wartomods

i dont care much , our experiences and memories make us humans . Abortion just kills a potential human, i agree with it, (until ten weeks)


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## Arapala

veggieguy12 said:


> I think that it's _*nobody*_* else's fucking business* what a woman does with her body.)



Could not have said it better.


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## madewithpaint

ianfernite said:


> I am 100% pro-abortion. If the numbers given on the "pro life" (bahahaha) shirts I've seen at school are accurate (which I doubt), abortion has prevented a lot of humans. I back that.



Hooray for population control!


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## Dirty Rig

I'm a dude. I have no right to have an opinion, so I don't. Go do yo thang, girlz!


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## veggieguy12

Lemme just ask my pal-in-hiding, a rapper named *2Pac*, to back me up:
"Cause wild seeds can't grow, we need more abortions." -_Wordz to My First Born_

This thread has taken-on more importance given the murder in Wichita, KS and the murder in Hillsboro, OR.


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## RnJ

I am pro-life, as in supporting adoption, being against the death penalty, and abhor violence & war. However, I think that "personal rights" in the West have become excessive, and are more rooted in selfish individualism than any collective good.

I don't understand how everyone in the land of milk and honey sees freedom as their greater individual personal entitlement, rather than their greater responsibility. I say this to both Christians and non-Christians.

I think we're a sex-addicted society, which wants it whenever it can get it, without limits, without consequences. Abortions are a short term solution to the much greater problem of a society and economy fueled by sex.


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## RnJ

I am pro-life, as in supporting adoption, being against the death penalty, and abhor violence & war. However, I think that "personal rights" in the West have become excessive, and are more rooted in selfish individualism than any collective good.

I don't understand how everyone in the land of milk and honey sees freedom as their greater individual personal entitlement, rather than their greater responsibility. I say this to both Christians and non-Christians.

I think we're a sex-addicted society, which wants it whenever it can get it, without limits, without consequences. At best, abortions are a short term solution to the much greater problem of a society and economy fueled by sex.


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## veggieguy12

RnJ said:


> I don't understand how everyone in the land of milk and honey sees freedom as their greater individual personal entitlement, rather than their greater responsibility. I say this to both Christians and non-Christians.



Hmm, _something_ tells me you're a "Christian". By looking at your profile info, hypothesis confirmed. I could say much about that, buuuuuut- I won't. _Here._
I will just note that having an abortion *IS* being responsible with an unplanned pregnancy. All religionists' notions of morals aside, when you have a pregnancy suddenly upon you, and you are unprepared or unwilling to deal with maternity, childbirth, and child-rearing, *abortion is abso-fucking-lutely being responsible*.
Also, I'm not sure what Christianity can teach about freedom; I know MLK and AJ Muste and all sort of people found it really liberating; do I have to mention all those who've found it really oppressive? Not to mention the fact that buying into all the Biblical laws and dogmas on the more conservative end indicates a willingness to forgo liberty rather than embrace it.



RnJ said:


> At best, abortions are a short term solution to the much greater problem of a society and economy fueled by sex.



NO! At best, abortions are individual women deciding what happens with their bodies, determining what they want and will allow in their lives. Y'know, like my position is, "I'm not going to allow some living thing to grow on me, if I don't want it", or "I'm not going to allow my blood to spill out of a wound, if I don't want to die." Maybe these are decisions to intervene in God's plan, maybe these are inconsiderate of other life forms involved, but they are about my life.

So I get it that you're a Christian. Whatever that means to you, it means some very _bad_ things to me. One of these things is that you might not really understand sciences, among them, biology; perhaps history is an issue, too. (Prove me wrong, please!)

In whatever ways the U.S. economy is fueled by sex, and maybe the society is 'fueled' by sex, *our whole species is fueled by sex - it is how you and I got here*_._
Let's not pretend that our predecessors were just doing their duty as the Lord's servants. They were gettin' it on for the pleasures of the flesh, baby.

I understand that Christians think sex is a dirty, sordid, regrettable experience - and that may very well be what it is for most Christians (and Muslims and Jews and all others who bear the burdens of dogmas) - but it is also a biological thing, something that the god(s) put into all humans, even Muslims and Jews and Christians. Your libido (whether for men or women or both) is something your god gave you- so it's alright!, you don't have to suppress it!

Without question, our media set standards and sell us on crap by using sexuality. And exploiting libido for the sale of pornography/'prostitutes' generates a ton of money.
But we're not sold sex when we don't want it. We want it because it's the way reproduce, and when we procreate our genes spread. Thus our genes push us to fuck.

Furthermore, a scan of various human cultures throughout history will reveal that people have wanted it (and "without consequences") for a very long time, since before capitalism or mass media or the United States began.



RnJ said:


> I think we're a sex-addicted society, which wants it whenever it can get it, without limits, without consequences.



So, before our society, people weren't trying to fuck? People didn't enjoy sex? Women never tried to not get pregnant as a result of sex? Men never pursued women? Women never wanted to be pursued?
Dude, do you know how ill-informed this sounds?, in both history and biology.

I probably sound like an asshole (and fair enough), but it's like you just don't know anything about other species, let alone our own. Every mammal has a mating season- every single one.
And as soon as our species became aware enough to prevent pregnancies, we started doing just that. Note that *we did not stop having sex - we stopped making babies*, and birthed by choice. Something wrong with that?
Again, we may be a sex-addicted/fueled society, but it's absolutely essential to realize that humans want sex.

Oh, and that bulge in my pants?, well that ain't the Devil...


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## madewithpaint

hahahaha
That is by far the greatest thing I have ever read.
Kudos.


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## moe

SEX destroys all!


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## moe

arrowInone, thanks for sharing your own personal experiences in your posts.
it really counts to hear from soeone ho have actually dealt with the matter in hands.

but i don't now what else to say.
im pro-choice. fuck who you want, but shit, you know the consequnces and better damn be ready to make that decision. stick to condoms and pills.
you're life is not fucked up when you have that kid in the oven. that's why it's fair to us women to have choices. adoption and abortion.
just don't take it for granted.


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## Angela

RnJ said:


> I think we're a sex-addicted society, which wants it whenever it can get it, without limits, without consequences. Abortions are a short term solution to the much greater problem of a society and economy fueled by sex.



Children should be something that are cherished if people are going to have them at all, not a _*consequence*_. I've found that most people that make the argument that you do are not concerned at all with the quality of the lives involved but instead are more interested in essentially punishing people for sex and too often punishing specifically women for sex. People need to keep their vindictive morals off of other people's bodies and lives! Thanks veggieguy for the longer winded version of this sentiment, I totally agree.


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## RnJ

I'll admit that my worldview effects my view on abortion. Doesn't everyone's? So yes, my faith does play into my view.

My interests are not in punishing women, but in not killing babies. I do not think the issue is black and white at all, and often wonder how I'd feel if I had been a part of the unplanned pregnancy. But I have decided that if my interests are in the child, and not in burdening the mother intentionally, a better option is to put the child in a better home. Also, I do not think it is a political issue. I'd rather people had complete freedom, and make better choices (such as giving a baby up for adoption). I do not think that control has ever gone over well with people.

This thread was a bit simple with everyone being pro-choice, and just thought I'd offer my view. I'm hoping nobody got too flaming mad at me for challenging their thoughts, especially since it seems like I didn't.


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## rellydelly890

I just think it's interesting that the people who argue that life is too precious to just abort are the same people that allow the death penalty and the 323432534535443 wars happening all over the world. But if every person on earth didn't have a baby for like 5 years or something, population density would seriously not even exist.


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## RnJ

It was estimated in 2008 that the TFR is 1.57 children born per woman in Canada. It needs to be roughly 2.1 for us to maintain our population. If it wasn't for immigrants, our population would be declining more rapidly.


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## Dameon

Really, I think it's unfair to say mens' lives aren't fucked up by having a kid. Sure, a guy can up and run, and have no involvement with the child. But then, so can a woman, it's called giving the child up for adoption. In a way, it's even worse for a guy, because giving your kid up is free. Guys have to pay child support. If a guy is responsible, then he has to give up a lot to take care of that child, just like the woman does. Lots of guys have to drop out of college/school and work 12 hours a day of hard labor to make sure their child is taken care of, when maybe they could have had a good career if they'd gotten to finish school.

Personally, it makes me mad when people act like it affects the woman that much more than the guy. Granted, the woman has to carry a child for 9 months, and then go through birth, but you know what? The guy has to deal with a crazy creature for those 9 months, and do you know how traumatizing it is to watch a baby come out of the place where you've been putting your penis? Seriously?

I kid, I kid.


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## wartomods

Talking about this, i think parents should not be obligated to pay child support.


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## veggieguy12

RnJ said:


> It was estimated in 2008 that the TFR is 1.57 children born per woman in Canada. It needs to be roughly 2.1 for us to maintain our population. If it wasn't for immigrants, our population would be declining more rapidly.



Um... so? A human-population drop *will* happen, it's just inevitable. Neither our gods nor our sciences/intelligence will stop that. The sooner it happens - and the more voluntarily - the easier it will be. You're not here saying that you want the population to maintain or even grow, are you?



rellydelly890 said:


> I just think it's interesting that the people who argue that life is too precious to just abort are the same people that allow the death penalty and the 323432534535443 wars happening all over the world.



Well, not all of them. Just the hypocrites, who are many, for sure...


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## Mouse

I really think that some more important issues aren't getting discussed about abortion any longer. 

=morality.. yeah.. we got that covered. no one agrees. end of story.
=rights and respect.. yeah... "woman's rights", fuck the dad, general idea. not right in the least, but in general that's what people think.
=personal... it doesn't matter if you would or wouldn't, so stop trying to justify yourself. you personal problems aren't the issue.

but what about access? yes, it's legal still.. but do you know where to go? not as easy to find as you'd think. how accessible is it in most areas? some places it's legal but you have to go 100 miles to get to a clinic. Are there any funds to help you pay for it? not really. Why the hell wont health insurance cover any costs? because that's bullshit.

there are a lot of things that get skipped when you only pay attention to the hot button issues. Buzz topics only distract from the real problems.

step one in keeping abortion legal is truely educating the public, making it more accessable and in turn less stigmatized, and helping people who are struggling to get by pay for a much needed procedure to help them continue working towards their goals to one day have AND support a family.

"so kids... when a man and a woman really love eachother, they shack up together now and then. Maybe they eventually move in together. And they have some lovely mutual mind blowing sex and take steps to prevent getting knocked up. But one day they fail. Now they are left with a choice, luckily a legal one for the moment. Shall they keep it or not? Who do they call? Who can they even turn to that will help them get factual unbiased information? What if they let it slip to the wrong person and that person scorns them and makes them feel like pieces of shit? What if after all this struggle they come to find out it's going to cost their minimum wage earning asses 400 bucks to get this done? And what if after all this talk about how PC and great legal abortion is and how it's every womans right and it shouldn't hold you down or make you misserable tunr out to be a bunch of bullshit because there really are no systems in place where they live that will give them the support and assitance they need?..."

tell that story to you kids from now on.


----------



## veggieguy12

Mouse said:


> step one in keeping abortion legal is truely educating the public, making it more accessable and in turn less stigmatized...



documentary: I Had an Abortion
I have this on DVD back in FL; willing to mail a copy to anyone when I get back within a couple months. Holla.


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## Angela

RnJ said:


> It was estimated in 2008 that the TFR is 1.57 children born per woman in Canada. It needs to be roughly 2.1 for us to maintain our population. If it wasn't for immigrants, our population would be declining more rapidly.



Everyone that's not First Nations is an immigrant in Canada just like in the states, some just came more recently than others. If Canada would like to maintain or increase it's population I'm sure there's lots of folks in many countries who would love to become Canadian.


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## Matt Derrick

i wasn't looking forward to this thread, but man it really sucked me in. mouse, you're right on, we should hear some more on the points you listed. anyone want to voice their opinions on those?


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## Mouse

thank you! people always get wrapped up in the "would I? should I?" shit and forget that hey.. it's legal, doesn't matter if you would... but how could you if needed? how will you pay for it? why doesn't anyone actually help? 

when I had to go through it I was so lost. I didn't know who to call.. I definitly didn't know how I was going to get the money. When life is just going by you kinda think there's gotta be something out there that will take care of me in the event I'll need to do this abortion thing but when it comes down to it you only have right wing religous people trying to talk you out of it and abrupt matter of fact phone converstations with planned parenthood that don't tell you much of shit.


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## rickysymo

Abortion is a big no! No! For me, why will take the pleasure in making a baby when you don’t want them to be born in this planet? Be a responsible adult; don’t sow life when practically you don’t want to reap. :scared:


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## macks

i think you're missing something here - you can be responsible and have things still go wrong. short of abstinence which veggieguy talked about earlier the question isn't whether you're having sex or not but what to do if/when birth control fails to work 100%


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## Monkeywrench

"Abolition of a woman's right to abortion, when and if she wants it, amounts to compulsory maternity: a form of rape by the State." - Edward Abbey


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## steelcitybrew

I prefer it


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## whaleofashrimp

i'm not going to be liked for saying this
but it's something i'm used to
now a days future parents can have there children geneticly screened

for gener traits that show if the child might have a chemical imbalance
might become a homosexual
or might even be prone to rebellian

and you can have the child murderd for that

pro-choice or pro life
you can use any euphenism you like..it is murder

now my ex wife and i..she got pregnant and had an abortion behind my back..we splet up..but i forgave her

i do belive plan b is the best option..because you deont know if your really pregnant....it just causes an early heavy period which is how many early natural miscarreges appear as

and for all these people who say "well what if she was raped"
so 
was that your great grandmas fault when your great great-great grandma was raped by maurading cossacks

how many people here can know for sure that they werent concieved in a rape?


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## veggieguy12

whaleofashrimp said:


> now a days future parents can have there children geneticly screened
> 
> for gener traits that show if the child might have a chemical imbalance
> might become a homosexual
> or might even be prone to rebellian
> 
> and you can have the child murderd for that



Some proof of this would be great.
The closest thing I've heard of is a trend - an *illegal* custom in India - to have a Dr. check gender of fetus and abort if it's female. Abortion is available in India, but doctors can be arrested for this gender-specific termination of pregnancy. (And - not to justify it, but - you gotta wonder how much higher their population would be if this "female deselection" hadn't been done so much. Yikes!)



whaleofashrimp said:


> and for all these people who say "well what if she was raped"
> so
> was that your great grandmas fault when your great great-great grandma was raped by maurading cossacks
> 
> how many people here can know for sure that they werent concieved in a rape?



So...? Your point? Let's suppose I'm of a long-line of babies conceived and born from rapes.
If I was born, then everyone should be born? Is that how you expect I should think?
Or, if my great great grandmother chose to _not_ abort or wasn't allowed to choose, then I ought to want to prevent anyone else choosing to abort?
This shit makes no sense.


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## macks

whaleofashrimp said:


> now a days future parents can have there children geneticly screened
> 
> for gener traits that show if the child might have a chemical imbalance
> might become a homosexual
> or might even be prone to rebellian



Homosexuality, rebellious tendencies and chemical imbalances are not currently linked to any genes. If you are going to choose to abort a child that might be homosexual, rebellious, or chemically imbalanced you might as well abort all of them.


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## veggieguy12

As long as we're dealing with science fiction, "Gattaca" was a cool movie!


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## whaleofashrimp

veggieguy12 said:


> Some proof of this would be great.
> The closest thing I've heard of is a trend - an *illegal* custom in India - to have a Dr. check gender of fetus and abort if it's female. Abortion is available in India, but doctors can be arrested for this gender-specific termination of pregnancy. (And - not to justify it, but - you gotta wonder how much higher their population would be if this "female deselection" hadn't been done so much. Yikes!)
> 
> 
> 
> So...? Your point? Let's suppose I'm of a long-line of babies conceived and born from rapes.
> If I was born, then everyone should be born? Is that how you expect I should think?
> Or, if my great great grandmother chose to _not_ abort or wasn't allowed to choose, then I ought to want to prevent anyone else choosing to abort?
> This shit makes no sense.






well they do it plenty in china to this day gender specific abortions..and there are genes linked to undersierbalo traits and theres more links found everyday

and yes..what i'm saying is that everyoine has the right to live...if we disregaurd that right it's only a matter of time till social undisierables are denied the right to live

it's funny from your screen name veggy guy i'd think you'd be one of those people decrying the eatting of meat because it's killinhg life
]yet your ok with ripping children out of the womb ...am i the only one who see's the disconnect?


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## RnJ

whaleofashrimp, I've thought about the animal liberation + abortionist disconnect before. Perhaps some sort of nature worship? Although, there's more than one reason to be vegan/vegetarian. I've considering eating mostly vegetarian because feeding grain to animals is a waste compared to what we could get out of eating the grain for ourselves, and with food problems being an issue, it would be ideal.


----------



## macks

whaleofashrimp said:


> it's funny from your screen name veggy guy i'd think you'd be one of those people decrying the eatting of meat because it's killinhg life
> ]yet your ok with ripping children out of the womb ...am i the only one who see's the disconnect?



I think this is a common misconception - that vegeterians/vegans are against eating meat because it is "killing life." Plants are also alive - in order to sustain yourself you must at some point consume something that is also attempting to sustain itself (animal/plant/what have you). 

Who are you to decide what deserves to live and doesn't? Human, animal, plant, bacteria, fungus. How does it all fit together for you? We are all trying to make the best choices we can with the tools we are given - would you take away the tools for other people based on what you believe is right? If you and others sharing your viewpoint succeeded in making what you believed to be immoral illegal, would that _really_ stop people from having abortions?


----------



## bote

Not eating meat has nothing to do with anything other than not eating meat, so fucking annoying to be pigeonholed all the time. 

You are anti-abortion, therefore you must be religious right? (religious RIGHT) 

I might ask how you rationalize resorting to (cockeyed) logic to poke holes in someone else´s beliefs, when your own are built on ¨faith¨?

pretty sure veggieguy is omnivorous btw


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## whaleofashrimp

the strange thing is i'm actually pro-choice
i just have moral qualms about it
i've been responsible for two abortions in my life....And i'll say they were probably the right choices
but i have an issue..not just with abortion but with many controversial topics of one side completly disregaurding certain nasty facts that might undermine there argument

like with abortion...i take issue with the pro-choice issiue that try to ignore and dismiss some of the more unsetteling issues surrounding it
like aborting based on the babys gender or haveing certain undisierable genes
or the elephent in the room--that this isint a lump of random tissue but a liveing being

if it's ok to kill in the womb, would it also to be ok to kill a baby thats not wanted out of the womb..can that be extended to killing "unwanted" people
these are REAL ethical issues that have to be taken seriously
unfortunitly the argument has devolved into an US vs. THEM screaming match
the pro-lifers tend to be the most shrill of them
and in these arguments it's sooo easy to disregaurded real questions and contradictions to bolster your argument and feel "right"


----------



## whaleofashrimp

it seems like the problem with humans but particularly America is that something has to be completely right or completely wrong and once an opinion is formed inconvenient questions are avoided ,attacked and ignored. Theres no room for ambiguity or holding a belief while considering and accepting the flaws in that belief


----------



## macks

whaleofashrimp said:


> and in these arguments it's sooo easy to disregaurded real questions and contradictions to bolster your argument and feel "right"



Well, that's because the biggest part of this issue is moral, and the biggest question deals with whether it is _right_ or _wrong_ to abort a child. People can (and do) argue about morality all day without getting anywhere, it seems pretty pointless to me. I think that if you don't like abortions that you shouldn't have one. The stupidity in this whole issue for me is that even _if_ it was decided in a big enough majority to make abortion totally illegal everywhere, people would still have abortions. It's like how making marijuana illegal stopped people from smoking pot. 

So what are these real questions? Were the questions I asked you a couple of posts ago weren't real questions? Because they were certainly disregarded.


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## whaleofashrimp

like i said..i'm pro-choice...for this reason, people will want abortions..why deny them and it would be pretty hypocritical of me considering i was responsible for two abortions myself i guess you can say i dont really belive in anytthing if you define belief as an unwavering philosophy..my curse is i'm always willing to play devils advocate

can you repeat exactly what questions you were asking..because the only ones i found seemned rhetorical


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## finn

whaleofashrimp said:


> like i said..i'm pro-choice...for this reason, people will want abortions....my curse is i'm always willing to play devils advocate...



Devil's advocate, more like you baiting for drama. I don't see how this can be a debate on non religious grounds. A fetus is essentially a parasite in the body- unlike most parasites it has the capability of turning into a real person- but the host gets to decide whether it stays or goes. Unless you believe you don't have the right to decide what lives off your body and what doesn't.

Now that its established that this is was a debate about abortion between pro-choicers, what's next?

PS I'm not going to argue any more FOR abortion with a PRO-CHOICE person, because there is no point. It's not going to change your mind to hear someone arguing for what you believe in. Arguing for arguments sake? Whatever.


----------



## whaleofashrimp

finn said:


> Devil's advocate, more like you baiting for drama. I don't see how this can be a debate on non religious grounds. A fetus is essentially a parasite in the body- unlike most parasites it has the capability of turning into a real person- but the host gets to decide whether it stays or goes. Unless you believe you don't have the right to decide what lives off your body and what doesn't.
> 
> Now that its established that this is was a debate about abortion between pro-choicers, what's next?




really? i thought we were haveing a debate on a controversial issue, i didint realize that i stumbled on a back-slapping faternity..well sorry i'm not part of your chours

so anyway..why does everything have be divided between this side and that side?
why cant someones views be complicated and nuanced rather then one side or another

yes your right a fetus is a parasite in sense? we were all parasites at one point or another, which is why no matter what are issues we have to respect our mothers for not aborting us, anyway..so when does this human parasite become human...since after birth the baby is still dependednt on others is it okay to terminate it before...two lets say
And where did this idea come into play that i'm religious?


----------



## whaleofashrimp

macks said:


> I think this is a common misconception - that vegeterians/vegans are against eating meat because it is "killing life." Plants are also alive - in order to sustain yourself you must at some point consume something that is also attempting to sustain itself (animal/plant/what have you).
> 
> Who are you to decide what deserves to live and doesn't? Human, animal, plant, bacteria, fungus. How does it all fit together for you? We are all trying to make the best choices we can with the tools we are given - would you take away the tools for other people based on what you believe is right? If you and others sharing your viewpoint succeeded in making what you believed to be immoral illegal, would that _really_ stop people from having abortions?




ok i dont clam to have anyright who lives or dies...i'm just a guy you m ight meet under a bridge in a fort night offering some food....i belive as humans we have to think and weigh our options and our consequences and consider the ethical questions

and no..i dont want to take away abortion from anyone...people have the right to make there own choices
i just feel like i'm the only one who belives in human free will and the right to choose while also aknoleging the ethical dilemmas


----------



## macks

whaleofashrimp said:


> can you repeat exactly what questions you were asking..because the only ones i found seemned rhetorical



I think I'm guilty as charged here - they were more rhetorical than anything else. But my point still stands - whatever your beliefs are it doesn't really matter, people are going to have abortions. I'm not arguing on either side of the issue, just pointing out that my concern with this issue is the safety of the people choosing to have abortions. And not finding babies while I'm dumpsternig.


----------



## whaleofashrimp

macks said:


> I think I'm guilty as charged here - they were more rhetorical than anything else. But my point still stands - whatever your beliefs are it doesn't really matter, people are going to have abortions. I'm not arguing on either side of the issue, just pointing out that my concern with this issue is the safety of the people choosing to have abortions. And not finding babies while I'm dumpsternig.



thats exactly why i belive abortions should remain freely avalable and affordable
i wish i lived in a world where pregnancy doesint have to be a terrifying thing...where a young woman knows that socity will give her everything she will need pre and post birth
but we dont liven in that world..we live in a country that is truely demeaning desperate and miserble for young sigle mothers 
abortion just makes sense


----------



## veggieguy12

whaleofashrimp said:


> and yes..what i'm saying is that everyoine has the right to live...if we disregaurd that right it's only a matter of time till social undisierables are denied the right to live
> ...i'd think you'd be one of those people decrying the eatting of meat because it's killinhg life
> ]yet your ok with ripping children out of the womb ...am i the only one who see's the disconnect?





RnJ said:


> whaleofashrimp, I've thought about the animal liberation + abortionist disconnect before.



#1 - I *am* for animal liberation - this does not mean (non-human) animals never die, it means they are not enslaved and viewed/used as property, that they are regarded as brethren of the Earth, each as special/insignificant as every person. This thread won't become a debate on diet; I'll just note that whatever my diet consists of or excludes, I don't see how it affects the state of the planet or the welfare of farm-slaves - unfortunately. (Feel free to start some new thread if you want to see this discussed/argued.)

#2 - I don't want to make eating meat illegal, and of the MANY vegetarians/vegans I know, none of them have ever suggested this to me. Animals have a place on this Earth as consumers and providers. Wolves need to eat deer, deer need to eat grasses, grasses and soil need to eat the wolves. We humans should be a part of that cycle, that interplay.

#3 - If a pig wants to abort its babies, I have no problem with that. If a cow wants to commit suicide, again: no problem. And if a zebra kicks and kills an attacking hyena - or is taken down and eaten by the hyena - it doesn't bother me one bit, either way. Y'see, that's the parallel, and the distinction, between human abortions and the lives of other animals. Those animals are free, independent, and competing and struggling to survive. They can die, they can be killed, but they should live free is my POV. So should human mothers live free, able to decide what they do with their own bodies. It's a great quote *monkeywrench* delivered in post #65.



whaleofashrimp said:


> it seems like... something has to be completely right or completely wrong and once an opinion is formed inconvenient questions are avoided ,attacked and ignored. Theres no room for ambiguity or holding a belief while considering and accepting the flaws in that belief
> ...why does everything have be divided between this side and that side?
> why cant someones views be complicated and nuanced rather then one side or another



That's a fair point, but the way your initial post (and second, and maybe third) came across, you weren't just teasing out the little details while being solidly on one side. Rather, it appeared that you were staking out a firm position on the opposite side of where you've now said that you stand.
It's not about "back-slapping"; you wrote that abortions are done to stop gays and rebels from being born, and that's utter nonsense. Even if it was true, that's no argument for banning abortion; should we abolish the Internet for being used to trade kiddie porn, send computer viruses, and hack bank accounts? (In fact, I think it's still within any pregnant mother's right to choose whatever reason she doesn't want to carry and birth a child - whatever reason.)

*There are ambiguities and moral compromises to everyday life itself, man.* Mostly nobody says they want to do harm, but we do it nonetheless, in a million different ways.
One of my main problems in this specific issue is that with all the conflict a woman might feel and tough decision she may face when with an unexpected pregnancy, with all this dilemma weighing on her shoulders, self-righteous, dogmatic hypocrites - men, all too often - will holler above all others that these affected women should be subordinated and compelled by the State to have a baby. Why not just think that it's an unfortunate decision, but a very difficult and personal one, and simply decide to shut your mouth and let the woman involved make the choice herself? "Because it's an innocent life?" C'mon, every year God aborts more "life" than all the clinics in the whole world, we just label that "miscarriage". I've never seen anyone racked with guilt over having to eat an egg or chicken breast, because people know they need to consume calories, and most people prioritize their own lives and those within their species over other humans and foreign species. So let's drop the whole "killing innocent life" pretense.



macks said:


> ...the biggest part of this issue is moral, and the biggest question deals with whether it is _right_ or _wrong_ to abort a child. People can (and do) argue about morality all day without getting anywhere...



Yes, we don't all share the same perspective. I'd say that those who seem themselves as "morally pure" (and they must if they're condemning mothers choosing abortion) are deluded. The very concept is a farce.



finn said:


> Unless you believe you don't have the right to decide what lives off your body and what doesn't.



Yeah, 'zackly.
How many bacterial killings occur when you scratch your arm? How many mosquitoes do you allow to nurse off your blood supply? Those seem a bit more alive to me than a carrot or a fetus. We do what we need to do for our own interest, whether terminating pregnancy, chopping down trees, eating vegetables and animals, or killing a person.
Nobody is or ought to be compelled to allow something to dominate one's life, and to think that something which doesn't burden men (pregnancy) should be the one exception where "killing" is disallowed is _completely_ sexist.



whaleofashrimp said:


> ...no matter what are issues we have to respect our mothers for not aborting us, anyway



Uhh... what? Do you think you'd really be miffed if Mom had aborted you, instead? Yeah, I might be bothered if I was aborted, but I know my Ma is so great, I'd get over it.


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## RnJ

Thanks veggie for clarifying what I thought was was disconnect, although I'm still a bit confused. I'll start another thread if it ends up circling in my brain. If I remember right, you were saying that you had tried being vegetarian and were not for the moment. I wasn't intending to make presumptions over the reasons for your choices at all. A tough and noble goal, I'll admit.


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## lobotomy3yes

Prop A: Human beings are a species of animal
Prop B: Other animal species abort their young*
Prop C: Abortion is not unnatural
Conclusion: Abortion is a viable option for any female with child.

*Polar bears will abort their fetuses when they feel the pregnancy is too much of a detriment to their survival. Other times they will allow their young to be born and leave them to die. This happens when resources are scarce, or seemingly randomly when an individual bear does not want to rear young for some reason or another. Male polar bears occasionally kill baby bears for reasons currently unknown. 

My point is that abortion has been going on for millions of years amongst different species. Why should we be so special (or should I say you) as to say "Nuh uh. Not human young. Shit ain't fair." Not saying that natural=moral good, that depends on your definitions of good, moral, and natural. I'm saying that if there is some standard by which we should live, which I think there is, it's rather deluded to think that it came into existence or began to apply when humans entered the picture. It's like, "Okay guys, the big man is here, time to start doing what's right!" 

Abortion is in many cases a natural process undergone to increase fitness for an individual or species. Applying moral absolutes to it simply muddies the waters. The notion that every organism has a right to life is ridiculous to me. I do believe that life is an interest in itself, as in to live is to have an interest. I try to give all organisms equal consideration of interests as well. But that does not mean that everything should live or deserves to live. Indeed, life itself replenishes energy and advances only by the death of other life.


----------



## JahDucky

Well. lets see. My views on abortion...never been asked this before.

I dont look down on women who consider abortion an alternative(unless its becoming a habitual thing). Weather a woman has the baby or not there are lifelong dealys that she has to live with for the rest of her life pro and con. If she aborts she doesnt have to raise a child and can go about her regular business but its not unheard of for the woman to have nightmares of what could have been for the rest of their lives. One of my buddies is glad that she aborted to a point because she was drinking heavily and doing drugs(she didnt know she was pregnant). she would have had one hell of a time raising a child with so many medical issues, but she has terrible dreams where she sees baby bits. thats no bueno. 
As for me being a mother i have the upside of a wonderful little boy who looks like a cupie doll and is as sweet as you would imagine one to be if it were alive and i get to watch him grow old, but on the downside i am going to have to learn how to have responsible fun and none of this going off and doing crazy shit spurr of the moment.

I couldnt possible imagine abortion esspecially after having my son...Its exciting to see what those little microbs can turn into after having processed for nine months. and watching them grow after that. I wouldnt bring it up as an option to a friend either(its not my place) but i will support a friend in their decision if they come to me saying that abortions seems to be the way.

Something for everyone to keep in mind. *Sex is a means to make babies....and practice makes perfect. Some of us flunk out and some of us ace it...I know I did.*

But yes it should still remain an option for a multitude of reasons. I couldnt say someone is wrong in their reasoning....Its all on them


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## Rash L

thankfully I havent had any regrets or nightmares since my abortion, but it probably helps that the pregnancy turned out to not be viable... I do know that in my circumstances that I would have gone through with it no matter what, do mostly to the possible birth defects that would have arose... but I really dont understand why women would choose to repeatedly get abortions instead of just getting on birth control -- that scraping shit HURTS!!!


----------



## JahDucky

Rash L said:


> thankfully I havent had any regrets or nightmares since my abortion, but it probably helps that the pregnancy turned out to not be viable... I do know that in my circumstances that I would have gone through with it no matter what, do mostly to the possible birth defects that would have arose... but I really dont understand why women would choose to repeatedly get abortions instead of just getting on birth control -- that scraping shit HURTS!!!



From what I have heard from women who get an abortion its one of the most painful things one can go through. I will just assume its more painful than childbirth(I enjoyed every second of the child birthing pains) I think that has more to do with excitement though.


----------



## smellsea

ah my best friend from this summer is pregnant. i asked her if she was going to suck that shit out, and i think it might of offended her. i don't understand why, she is living under a fucking bridge.
but yeah, men have no place even thinking about having a say. 
personally, children make me ill and give me a headache, but hell if you like 'em, and can take care of them, then keep 'em. simple as that.
this is a little off topic but i love the fuckers that are pro-capital punishment and pro-life. dickhedzzz.


----------



## christianarchy

I am pro-life. Sorry to fit in with the Christian stereotype on that, I normally don't.
My sister told me about some videos of an abortion on ultrasound. I've seen a couple in which the fetus is clearly avoiding the suction tube thing, but don't think I've yet seen the one my sister mentioned, which she made out to be quite graphic. If anyone finds it, let me know, thinking about it makes me feel sick but I want to see it. PM me if you want me to link you to some of these videos. I'm not posting them here because I don't agree with the organization a ton, I just value the video for it's factual content.

I'm sorry that men are using the abortion issue as a tool to gain power.

I understand that women have a right to their own body. Completely. I completely agree with that. I just think a child is different than a wart, you know? I think a fetus is a separate body in the woman's body. I guess I feel this way because nothing incredibly magical happens upon birth (on a scientific level, I'm sure it's an emotional experience for women). I mean, the child simply switches from its mother's oxygen supply to its own, and stops taking in nutrients from the mother through the umbelical cord. I mean it's fascinating, but this process doesn't seem like coming to life to me, it's simply a change. So, I basically feel like life begins quite awhile before that, I suppose at conception.

Also, I feel obligated to point out inconsistencies with the religious right's morals.

"Pro-life means pro-war and in the NRA" - this is basically true, good insight whoever pointed that out. That makes no fucking sense. Shows clear rascism in my opinion, valuing the life of a fetus but not of adults, children, and fetuses (seeing how the US has probably bombed a few pregnant women before) of a different culture. Again, no fucking sense.

Hatred towards women who have had an abortion - another awful thing. Jesus preached forgiveness, seems like many Christians have forgotten that. I forget it too sometimes, though. And I think Christ taught that because hating the opposition doesn't do a fucking thing for your cause. It makes tensions worse, in fact.
I'm sorry that we do that to you, women.

Also, I'm sorry that Christians are calling you murderers but so few Christians are opening up their homes to unwanted kids. Not very logical. I'm sorry that some of us blame you for not raising your kid when you have no means to raise a kid, and we keep our three story houses locked tight and don't consider helping out the children in need of a home. This is a terribly sad inconsistency I've seen in the church and in myself. I guess it's easier to blame someone for getting pregnant while being poor and not having the means to raise a kid when you have enough resources to raise four. I'm sorry we do that. 

I do feel like vegetarians should consider the side of pro-lifers. A fetus seems to show as many life-bearing signs as many animals. I'm sorry that Christians justify slaughterhouses while hating people who have had abortions.

I have to be honest, I'm surprised that more church people are pro-life than members of the anarchist, pacifist, or similar communities. I mean seriously, since when did Christians start caring about how people are treated?

I know criticism is coming, and I'm alright with that, but I feel like it's important you realize how sad it makes me to see such inconsistencies in American Christianity. We have been very bad examples to you all. I, personally, am very sorry.

-Christopher


----------



## veggieguy12

christianarchy said:


> ...I'm surprised that more church people are pro-life than members of the anarchist, pacifist, or similar communities. I mean seriously, since when did Christians start caring about how people are treated?



Since when did pacifists, anarchists, or "similar communities" want to enforce a preventive ban of medical options against women? And how would they do that?

Am I the only one who distinguishes the people (women) who don't choose to abort a pregnancy from the "Pro-Life" movement (women and many men) that wants to legislate every woman's fate to be strictly baby-makers?
It seems very clear to me that there is a _very_ obvious difference between women (and men like *christianarchy*) who make their own decisions about personal matters vs. a movement of people who seek to legislate what everyone must or mustn't do - and consequently what punishments will fall on those who don't obey their mandates.


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## veggieguy12

And seriously, dude, think about it: Essentially, you're saying that women who get a pregnancy should just bear it out, that they should forgo any choosing of what happens to them after conception, and simply be a carrier and birther. That's something you (and I) will never have to suffer, but how can you seriously say that this is the status women should accept?
Meanwhile, your God is aborting millions every year (and thank god!, or how much more overpopulated we'd already be), and worse, letting fully-born children and adults die (at best He's sitting by allowing it, at worst He's creating typhoons and earthquakes, maybe even murderers).


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## christianarchy

veggieguy12 said:


> And seriously, dude, think about it: Essentially, you're saying that women who get a pregnancy should just bear it out, that they should forgo any choosing of what happens to them after conception, and simply be a carrier and birther. That's something you (and I) will never have to suffer, but how can you seriously say that this is the status women should accept?
> Meanwhile, your God is aborting millions every year (and thank god!, or how much more overpopulated we'd already be), and worse, letting fully-born children and adults die (at best He's sitting by allowing it, at worst He's creating typhoons and earthquakes, maybe even murderers).



This is probably the main reason most people can't grasp the God figure. and it's really hard for me too. The other day I read something cool though. This Christian told his nonreligious friend that he would be too scared to ask God "why are you allowing soo much suffering in the world?" When his friend asked why, he replied "I'd be afraid that God would ask me the same question."

I don't know if that has any level of profoundness to you, but it does me.
I got a busy day today, but I'd like to take time to respond to your other post soon.

take care,
-Christopher


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## veggieguy12

christianarchy said:


> This Christian told his nonreligious friend that he would be too scared to ask God "why are you allowing soo much suffering in the world?" When his friend asked why, he replied "I'd be afraid that God would ask me the same question."
> I don't know if that has any level of profoundness to you, but it does me.



Ah, it just seems like rhetoric, sadly. It does _sound_ good, but that's all.
Honestly, not to be patronizing, but I feel it's one of those things that sounded so good and inspired me to pacifism for a while, but it really doesn't stand to critique.
I mean, the power differential between an all-powerful, omniscient God and mortal human worshipper is almost indescribable. Y'know, if God were to ask that of me, I would have a tough time holding back on a bitter, contemptuous answer.

Imagine asking Romeo Dallaire why he allowed the butchering in Rwanda to continue, and he just turns it back on you, a simple Rwandan taxi driver. "Uh, well, Sir, for starters I'm not a fucking UN General, I don't have a flak jacket or automatic rifle, or, uh, a fucking army! And I know how to drive around the city efficiently, not direct troops to repel an attack." Do you see my point?

It's not on you or me to stop massacres or earthquakes, and it might not be on God either, but certainly He is in a position where the question of "Why allow it?" is fairly asked of Him, and we are clearly not in His position.


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## bote

Veg: off-topic, but the consensus on Dallaire is that he tried very hard to prevent the Rwandan genocide but was unable to, because the international community widely refused to ackownledge what was happening (and wanted to sell weapons).
If you read the Randa section in the link you provided, I think this is the story it tells.


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## veggieguy12

Oh, Bote, dude: I was just trying to point out that there are empowered people and people with less ability to impact a situation. Saving the world is less on any one human than it is on the God of all creation.
And I believe Dallaire had his orders and couldn't get approval to do more than guard the base and allow it to be a refuge for fleeing Tutsis. I'm not dumping on him, just making a point; he would never have asked a cabdriver to defend the country while sitting idly by himself.


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## veggieguy12

This thread could use a lil' levity. From 1996, I believe:

& from 1993:


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## bfalk420

veggieguy12 said:


> inspired by the thread "who's having kids?"...
> Beyond religious moralism imposed by dogmatic nutcases, i don't see why it's such a taboo or a moral controversy. Nobody chastises or demonizes someone for having anything removed from their body, but assholes protest and slander and guilt & shame women who get abortions, and the more extreme end of this anti-choice position advocates killing abortion providers. What the fuck?
> 
> I understand someone not wanting to talk about their medical/body issues, but as much as someone can talk about any procedure or treatment, i think abortion ought to be as on-the-table and without question.
> And i might agree that there's some life to what would, perhaps, eventually be born as a human baby. But there's also life to a sixth finger on a hand, or tumor growing in the brain, or the pancreas whose purpose in the body is not fully understood - yet nobody seems to have any qualms about removing these things.
> 
> So, to close this rant, i think that it's _*nobody*_* else's fucking business* what a woman does with her body, and i'm curious what other stp'ers think about this controversial topic.
> (and if you take offense that i referred to so-called 'pro-life' protesters as "assholes", chances are good that you qualify as a self-righteous, judgmental, dogmatic asshole.)


 i agree!


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## christianarchy

veggieguy12 said:


> Since when did pacifists, anarchists, or "similar communities" want to enforce a preventive ban of medical options against women? And how would they do that?


Simply pointing out that, as Carlin (who's pretty funny and makes some good points) says, it's strange that people supporting war are the "pro-life" ones. I really like what he said about how conserveratives don't give a fuck about people post-birth. It's a strange, strange inconsistency.



"veggieguy12 said:


> Am I the only one who distinguishes the people (women) who don't choose to abort a pregnancy from the "Pro-Life" movement (women and many men) that wants to legislate every woman's fate to be strictly baby-makers?





veggieguy12 said:


> And seriously, dude, think about it: Essentially, you're saying that women who get a pregnancy should just bear it out, that they should forgo any choosing of what happens to them after conception, and simply be a carrier and birther. That's something you (and I) will never have to suffer, but how can you seriously say that this is the status women should accept?



I hope you know I don't see that as the role of women whatsoever. However, I do feel like both parents of a child should stick out the pregnancy period if the women becomes pregnant. Which, of course, would only work if people having sex were in a committed relationship, which I also think is important. It sucks that women have to be the ones carrying babies. That's rough. And therefore I feel like the father should be supporting the mother through it all. And if the parents aren't able to take care of the child, it would be ideal for them to be part of a community where people who see value in child before it's born would be willing to raise the child together. 

So I guess what I'm saying there is that in the ideal society, abortion would not be necessary since people would support women through an unintended pregnancy and be ready to take the child in if they did not want to or were not able to nurture it. And therefore, not having abortions would be a step towards creating this ideal society. 



veggieguy12 said:


> Ah, it just seems like rhetoric, sadly. It does _sound_ good, but that's all.
> Honestly, not to be patronizing, but I feel it's one of those things that sounded so good and inspired me to pacifism for a while, but it really doesn't stand to critique.
> I mean, the power differential between an all-powerful, omniscient God and mortal human worshipper is almost indescribable. Y'know, if God were to ask that of me, I would have a tough time holding back on a bitter, contemptuous answer.
> 
> Imagine asking Romeo Dallaire why he allowed the butchering in Rwanda to continue, and he just turns it back on you, a simple Rwandan taxi driver. "Uh, well, Sir, for starters I'm not a fucking UN General, I don't have a flak jacket or automatic rifle, or, uh, a fucking army! And I know how to drive around the city efficiently, not direct troops to repel an attack." Do you see my point?
> 
> It's not on you or me to stop massacres or earthquakes, and it might not be on God either, but certainly He is in a position where the question of "Why allow it?" is fairly asked of Him, and we are clearly not in His position.



I do see your point. And I've definitely been there. I guess what I feel now is that bad things happen, but they become beautiful when people come together because of bad things, and they become even worse when nothing but division and pain comes from these.
I read a book recently called "A Million Miles In A Thousand Years," and it points out that the greatest stories are the ones with the most painful situations being overcome. Some people who bellieve there is a God see Him as a storyteller of sorts, and that these awful things in the world can be tools to make our story more beautiful. Of course, when things like wars create apathy, violent retaliations, little compassion towards refugees, and acceptance that war brings about a greater good, our story really isn't getting any better. But what if there was a war and the reactions were all of compassion and love? That's when the story becomes powerful. I don't know if God creates things like natural disasters or not, but I do believe that He wants us to love each other and create a beautiful story of redemption and love out of the sorrow and fear of the world.


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## christianarchy

I also wanted to say that I feel you on the population control thing. I just feel like this should be done through parental education and encouragement to adopt, as well free birth control, and perhaps more accessibility and less of a cultural frown upon vasectomys/tubuligations (especially the latter, fuck the idea of women's value coming form their ability to procreate).

Also I have a question on the difference between "pro-life" and "anti-abortion." I've heard there is a difference but I don't know what it is?


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## bote

christianarchy said:


> Also I have a question on the difference between "pro-life" and "anti-abortion." I've heard there is a difference but I don't know what it is?




one is a misnomer.


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## tallhorseman

If it ain't my uterus, it ain't my business.
If it ain't your uterus, it ain't your business.
If it's your uterus, it's your business.

Resistance to tyranny is obedience to god.


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## MiztressWinter

Hmm. this thread has made me think...alot. I have two children. I have also had two abortions. I am def pro choice. First abortion I had...I was 17 and squatting and was in no way, shape or form ready or willing to be a mommy. Second child I aborted because the relationship was abusive...I left him..and didn't want any ties. enough said. Third child I wanted to abort...but my partner (now husband) begged me to have the child. So I did. and IM GLAD I did....and I LOVE my two kids...but i'm at a point in my life now where I'm READY for that responsibility...and i think every woman should have that right to choose.

Mouse...I couldn't agree with you more. I haven't had an abortion since I was ...umm...around 21? (32 now) but even then it was like 500 bucks. There are plenty places to help you with a child if you have one (like food stamps...WIC...etc etc etc) but no place to help you if you DONT want to have the child...even though it's legal...it's *taboo* to support it. Why not?! Where isn't there help? With as many pro-choice people that there are in this world...WHY is there not any help for women who don't want to have a baby?!


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## Lilly

I am pro-choice all the way I think if your going to have a kid be ready for it and happy your having it because if you have it and you didn't want it how good is its life going to be in the long run your possibly going to reget it or resent the kid something...yes you will learn to love it I know kids are cute and such I have neices and nephews like mad so I know kids are cool...But I also know if it came down to me having a baby I'm not ready...I want to travel have a life and then get my education and do it right have the money to raise it in a good place...Not be like I had a baby at 18 or so and that is kinda where all my chances at adventures ended...

I get pro-life people I kinda do that bit of cells is a human and what not...but do you really want to bring a human into the world that you can't care for? Okay adoption nice pretty idea and yeah the baby could be one of the lucky ones that get a good home and the whole bit yeah sounds good right...heres the thing the chances are this baby is most possibly going to find out it adopted that its parents didn't want it and since your prolly not going to be near by to justify your self during this grand revolation...It is going to feel like hell for possibly a long time...

I know someone is going to reeally disagree with me...and every one is entitled to their opinion I know mine won't match some peoples and some peoples won't match mine we jus got to respect that I guess


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## WapatoGreyer

I'm pretty back and forth on the issue of abortions. Sometimes I'll think about it and feel that it's unethical to terminate what will be a living thing (excluding if the fetus dies naturally in the womb for whatever reason), because I feel like even if the child is going to have health problems or be mutated or have mental problems or whatever, it still deserves love and the chance to survive. Haha some girl might get pregnant with the next Masiah and we'd never know because it was terminated. 

I dunno. 

I can totally see the other side of the spectrum here. I myself don't go around having sex due to personal moral reasons but I know that doesn't mean that's how everyone is. I get it. Shit happens... condoms break, sometimes the pill isn't always effective (my friend still got his girlfriend pregnant even AFTER the doctor told her she couldn't have children, plus they used a condom AND she was on the pill), and unfortunately rape exists and etc., etc... And there's the whole thing with there being an improper setting for the kid to grow up in and everything. So I dunno, I see both sides. Simply put, I guess how I feel about it is this: If you're going to have sex, be safe, take extra precautions -- don't just rely on the pill or just on a condom because those don't always work --, make sure you're as ready as you can be if something unplanned happens, and if worst comes to worst, get an abortion. But I really think an abortion should be the last on the list of options.

Also, I agree with NickCofphee, there are already way too many kids out there who need good homes and parents. Foster care has its problems. I don't ever want children, at least, that's how I feel now. When I'm older and settled more, maybe. But never my own, I'd choose to adopt. But if people were more careful with sex then I don't think this would be as much of an issue.


Also, I am a big fan of vasectomies. Haha.


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## christianarchy

I think overvaluing the nuclear, biological family has lead to this issue. If it were not so important in American culture, then adoption and foster care would be more widely accepted and widely practiced, and there wouldn't be such a stigma on permeanant birth control, which would lead to less unwanted kids.
More people need to get fixed!


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## WapatoGreyer

WapatoGreyer said:


> I'm pretty back and forth on the issue of abortions. Sometimes I'll think about it and feel that it's unethical to terminate what will be a living thing (excluding if the fetus dies naturally in the womb for whatever reason), because I feel like even if the child is going to have health problems or be mutated or have mental problems or whatever, it still deserves love and the chance to survive. Haha some girl might get pregnant with the next Masiah and we'd never know because it was terminated.
> 
> I dunno.
> 
> I can totally see the other side of the spectrum here. I myself don't go around having sex due to personal moral reasons but I know that doesn't mean that's how everyone is. I get it. Shit happens... condoms break, sometimes the pill isn't always effective (my friend still got his girlfriend pregnant even AFTER the doctor told her she couldn't have children, plus they used a condom AND she was on the pill), and unfortunately rape exists and etc., etc... And there's the whole thing with there being an improper setting for the kid to grow up in and everything. So I dunno, I see both sides. Simply put, I guess how I feel about it is this: If you're going to have sex, be safe, take extra precautions -- don't just rely on the pill or just on a condom because those don't always work --, make sure you're as ready as you can be if something unplanned happens, and if worst comes to worst, get an abortion. But I really think an abortion should be the last on the list of options.
> 
> Also, I agree with NickCofphee, there are already way too many kids out there who need good homes and parents. Foster care has its problems. I don't ever want children, at least, that's how I feel now. When I'm older and settled more, maybe. But never my own, I'd choose to adopt. But if people were more careful with sex then I don't think this would be as much of an issue.
> 
> 
> Also, I am a big fan of vasectomies. Haha.


 
MY VIEWS HAVE CHANGED GREATLY SINCE THIS POST JUST LET THIS BE KNOWN
I cringed when I read this and I don't know how to delete it


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## Earth

Really??
How so???
Just curious, that's all...

I think it is a healthy thing to do, to re evaluate ones position on serious matters like this.
My own beliefs are that there is nothing worse than a child born into a situation where there is suffering, neglect, or abuse - which more often or not is the case with unwanted children, so I am definately pro abortion. Even adoption centers can bring much sadness as the child wonders why some get picked first while he or she does not.

Same thing with animal shelters. The animals who don't get selected live a very sad existance and can reach a point of no retrun.
This is why I recently went from being for no kill shelters to sort of against them. I know its a cruel thing to say,but to see all those sad faces where their only life is that of living in a crate for months and even years is not ethical either. 

Unfortunately, we live in an age today where the young folks refuse to accept that being responsible is an important part of life.
They just want to be kids for life, never grow up, never be responsible or held accountable for their own actions.
They feel life ought to be 100% fun.

Trust me, that aint how it works.

Ultimately, its the womans choice. If I were involved,I would listen to her, offer my own feelings but in the end support whatever decision reached.

And yes, having a kid changes your way of living forever.
Even having a dog prevents me from doing half the stuff I used to do, but I am still happier with the dog as a part of my life.

Having children must be great. I just never got that chance..


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## RnJ

WapatoGreyer said:


> MY VIEWS HAVE CHANGED GREATLY SINCE THIS POST JUST LET THIS BE KNOWN
> I cringed when I read this and I don't know how to delete it


I thought that was a great post, personally.


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## Donnie

Some kids would be better off had they never been born.
Sounds horrible to say, I know, but here is an example:

http://mrwilliams.hubpages.com/hub/youngst-serial-killers

Almost 99% of the time, the people who have committed the greatest evils have been through traumatic experiences at the hand of a parent, or guardian.
A lot of people out there are seriously fucked up, then they have kids, and seriously fuck them up. It's a cycle of fucked-uppery.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can say that a lot of people live in horrible situations as kids, and they grow up fine. A few might actually make it out, but think about the countless others who don't. They grow up to become seriously broken/deranged/dangerous people.

We cannot take chances when it comes to children, they are the only hope we have!

I would much rather a kid be saved from all the pain and torture they might receive at the hands of an abusive or neglectful parent, than to live through it and do the same thing to another child.

If that means abortion, then so be it.


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## Rancho

devenheartbreak said:


> Ok, I personally don't believe in abortion. I was brought up to believe that if you are woman enough to drop your panties, then you deal with the consequences. I don't care if other women have 49845734 abortions. I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I don't really want kids, but if it ever happened and I think I couldn't take care of a child, like I said in the other thread about having kids, I'd adopt it out. Bc theres tons of people who want them but can't have them. But, back on track, I think at the date of conception, it is still a living person. I also don't believe in using the morning after pill or Plan B either. But, thats just me.. And like Veggieguy said, its a persons own choice. And I think people should have the freedom of doing whatever they want if they get pregnant. People should always have the freedom of choice.


Say it after its happened baby


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## soapybum

I think people need to stop being so dogmatic about it, happens in the "natural world" all the time. World is over populated anyway, and birth rate needs to go down. People also need to realize that having a child is an economic responsibility as well as a social one. If you cant supply the resources to raise a child you shouldnt have one, so either use the many methods possible and prevent pregnancy or get an abortion if you arent ready to have a child. Unwanted pregnancies shouldnt be an issue but they are cuz to many people are too fucking dogmatic about it... Anyway, thats my 2 cents/rant.


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