# San Fran bans sitting, lieing, sleeping on side walks



## druid

The fine liberal fascists of San Fran have decided that restin' your bones on the sidewalk is a criminal act. If you look homeless, your gonna be fined. Be warned. Fuck witted sons of bitches :club:

Story here: Police State: "Lefty" San Francisco Can Throw People in Jail For Sitting on a Sidewalk | Economy | AlterNet


----------



## blkhwbkr

watch out, Houston TX has a similar law. my buddy got a $180 ticket and a courtdate. when he showed up to fight it, lucky for him, the DA threw out the case and the judge called it a waste of time and he got off. unlucky for him, that was a huge fucking hassel all just for waiting for a bus with his pack.


----------



## piratehobo

damn that's some bs... anyone here read 'Down and Out In Paris and London'? he discusses something similar that takes place in london and how the homeless there all stayed on the move because they couldn't even stand in one place for more than a couplea minutes (i think that's what itwas :/ )


----------



## agony

the politicians get away with profiling once more!


----------



## junkyard

another chip at the block... 


"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin


----------



## Uncle Mom

oh darn it. I don't know what to do anymore. What do we do? Somebody answer me, please.


----------



## Nagrom

Ok I don't know all the facts but camping is not illegal in Cali-there is a higher court that rules over california and some surrounding states that says it is unconstitutional to deny the homeless of sleep and to target them as a group. If you get a ticket for it you can go in there with all your information about the law, the judge will go back in his little room and look it up and come out with his hands tied behind his back like a lil bitch and can't do anything to you. And after that the law will probably have to be removed from the books. So someone should do the research-I knew a guy that was gonna do it in Willits but he never got around to it, now he has a warrant *sigh*.


----------



## CardBoardBox

I was in Victoria when the cops came up on us for sitting on the sidewalk with our packs. It sucks 'cause we'd just sat down too. I'm pretty sure it's not a bylaw in that city but they harassed us anyway. A friend of mine who had snuck over the border ended up having to show the cops his ID and they figured out that he wasn't supposed to be here and deported him. Poor bugger. Havn't seen him since. It's pretty stupid in my opinion though. We don't have the freedom to sit and piss as we please. I'd rather be climbing trees than worshipping the concrete jungle any day though.


----------



## Medusa

This is so disgusting. I'm really fucking pissed off. Something needs to be done.


----------



## Pheonix

7,000 to 10,000 homeless in SF. those are numbers you can make an impact with. but how many of you actually go to court and fight it? if you don't stand up and fight for your freedom then you will never be free. the law gets away with these unconstitutional laws because no one is willing to fight the charges. I think if you just go to court and plead NOT GUILTY and request a jury trial then the DA will most likely drop the charges. going to trial is a waste of time, effort and money so the DA doesn't really want to push such a minor offense through the court system. if the DA is willing to make a big deal about this then start bitching about the constitutionality of the law and request to have your trial in a court that has the ability to decide weather or not the law is unconstitutional, it will probably be trail by judge but thats what you want the judge knows the constitution a lot better then 12 of your peers. if everyone did this then the DA or the judges will tell the cops to stop giving tickets for this offense.

I've heard (don't know for sure) that the Florida state supreme court has ruled that sleeping laws are unconstitutional because they got medical experts to testify that the body can't operate without sleep and will eventually pass out and sleep where ever the body hits the ground plus there are a lot of health dangers associated with lack of sleep.


----------



## dirtyfacedan

In Vancouver, if you sit on yer pack, they assume your are panning, and harras you. The rent-a-rats (downtown security guards) are even worse, and they call the cops, then the cops have a reason to hastle you, based on a "complaint". I follow them with a camera whenever i see them hastleing me or anyone else. Flying a sign is against city by-law in Vancouver, so i just ask for cash. These laws are just plain wrong, and part of the war on the poor, we need to all fight back!


----------



## Dameon

It's really only a matter of time until every major city has a law like this. The only city I know of where it's been successfully fought is Portland. The rich don't like to see the poor on their streets, and just figure if they make it illegal enough to be homeless, the homeless will magically disappear.

And the great part is that it's all because SF's mayor thought he saw somebody smoking crack on the Haight while he was there with his family. It was actually a guy in a wheelchair with a medical card smoking weed out of a chillum.


----------



## Cardboard

it was also overturned in LA. I think they figured it out. pushed for it so much it turned into the leaning law, which was absurd by everyones standards, not just the homeless.
SO come on SF; love this law, make them take it a step farther.... sometimes it takes a few steps to stumble and fall.


----------



## Pheonix

it's sad that the so-called hippies that hang out in the birthplace of the hippie movement won't stand up for what they believe in. I think a sit-in protest would be the best way to protest this and make sure the media gets a good picture of the cops ticketing protesters for siting. this law makes the hippies most popular form of protest illegal, ain't that in itself reason to protest.

at least some people will defend their rights On The First Day of Sit/Lie, Damp Protest – Mission [email protected] : News From San Francisco's Mission District


----------



## Linda/Ziggy

The sit lie law in SF is being fought!
There have been protests about it.
Also some of the non homeless folks are fighting it as it affect businesses,
and people just wanting to sit in front of their homes.
So yeah non homeless SF folks think it's stupid too.

In Santa Cruz they now have a $6000 dollar fine for sleeping outside...............


----------



## Dameon

It was fought all the way in SF, and still got passed. People were protesting and fighting it all last year.


----------



## shittickit

i always hated s.f. if someone asked me what city i hated most this would be the answer there is nothing good about s.f. and there is no reason to go there i hpe they pass more retarded laws there its not like youll get anythoing but a fucking ticket so who cares


----------



## Darque Jesus

Why not sit half an inch from the sidewalk with a measuring tape at hand.


----------



## OFFER

i don't want to sit down on your stupid shit anywhez san franstupid.....


----------



## crustythadd23

Fuck SF & all ther fucked up laws..shit just keeping gettin worse n worse every year up there
they just need to leave the homeless alone for once
last time i was there in 09', me & my buddy was sitting on the sidewalk & a cop walks up to us & starts givin us shit & looks at me(wish i remember what he said) but cuz how we looked he was talkin hella shit & was sayin we were on shit & better leave SF


----------



## BrittanyTheBananarchist

wow is all i have to say.


----------



## dirty_rotten_squatter

well, they passed it but Just recently (feb) they are enforcing it just mainly in the tourist areas


----------



## FawnDroke

A lot of places have this law in effect actually. 
I've been fucked with in both Seattle and Portland by cops who say they'll ticket us if we sit on the side walks. You can busk and spange - you just can't be sitting.
Fucking stupid.


----------



## colorado

f//k this it isnt a sf laws it is HAIGHT ST law people still sit on market the way i see it is kill the oogles and let god sort em out if ya dont like frisco go to berkley for me haight is home so what the cops will jack ya up for somokin a cig in the park olny if yer fu.in up though come home if your a haight kid its still the same mabee if we policed are shit better this wouldent happen we lost half the kid citys allready so lets work on this one ,if yer from round these parts you know that one cop comes in on his day off to play a kids guitar and plays grateful dead better then the rest they know what we do its all RESPECT......I LOVE HAIGHT CRIMES......


----------



## polyatomics

This only makes me want to go sit on a sidewalk right now.


----------



## doghead45

Portable chair loophole?


----------



## outskirts

Is there any law about sitting on the mayor's car while it's parked along the sidewalk?
I'd bet he'd just love that!


----------



## GutterGrayse

I usually just get away with the loophole of sitting on a structure that is not attached to the sidewalk. Like my backpack, or guitar case. That really messes with them, "Oh, but only my feet are touching the sidewalk, occifer." They'll grumble a lot, but if you're polite they'll usually stop harassing you.
Now, in San Fran, I don't really blame 'em. There's a lot of obnoctious people causing all sorts of disturbance while they're sittin' on the sidewalk. If I was a business owner, I'd realize they're driving most of my business away by being either insane or very, very rude. San Fran is a melting pot, of course, but you've got to look at it from the small downtown business owner perspective. Plus, if you're sitting there playing music alone (as in, without a fleet of street kids not playing instruments or busking in some way, selling their art in some form), then they'll usually be pretty cool about you.


----------



## stonedwonderer

San fran was kinda lame when i was there couldn't make any money by spang undies running all over the place. I hear the drunk stump is gone? I gotta lot of laughs with spare change and save the park squirrels from a hungry hillbilly with a stick but barley enough to get drunk the booze all day team did well there. I also learned about chicken Tuesday from forest. anyone know brandon a gdf kid ussaly in bueno vista.


----------



## shwillyhaaa

im with grayse... the people who really deserve to be cut a break are the people who are making something of themselves while being there. playing good music or selling art you put time into i think is a reasonable way to spend your time as a "homeless" person. but screaming about anarchy at passerby and breaking shit...being drunk and disorderly... pissing yourself and hitting your dog... fuck yea id make you walk too. people arent evil, they arent out to get us... if anything the musicians and traveling folk that actually have talent and reason make a town look cooler. everyone has to have some breathing room, small businesses need to make money too... 

so sorry to the kids who cant drink their 40s and yell at everyone on the streets of s.f.
if you dont like it, dont go there... leave... isnt that what we do anyways?


----------



## Dameon

Sorry, but this idea that the streets of SF are just lined with people sitting on the sidewalk and screaming at people is complete and utter bullshit. And this idea that businesses lose business because of people sitting on the sidewalks asking for change is baseless. If anything, businesses on the Haight are MAKING money because of people sitting on the sidewalks asking for change. That street is famous because of people like us, and people go there to see people like us. The businesses will call the police instantly if they see any behavior they don't like, because they're almost all run by assholes who could give a fuck about the history of the place, and what REALLY attracts tourists to their businesses. Hint: It's not their overpriced shit.

It's not as if there's even many places on the Haight you could sit down legally even before this stupid law passed, since businesses own the sidewalk in front of them and most of them don't allow you to hang out there.

As a busker, I hate elitist buskers who pretend that they are awesome while people out there spanging are pieces of shit. You aren't better than anybody else just because you have an instrument. As for "if you don't like it, don't go there", as long as we stand (literally) for this shit, the more cities it will pass in, and eventually there won't be anywhere you can go without being harassed simply for resting your weary bones.


----------



## shwillyhaaa

Dameon said:


> Sorry, but this idea that the streets of SF are just lined with people sitting on the sidewalk and screaming at people is complete and utter bullshit. And this idea that businesses lose business because of people sitting on the sidewalks asking for change is baseless. If anything, businesses on the Haight are MAKING money because of people sitting on the sidewalks asking for change. That street is famous because of people like us, and people go there to see people like us. The businesses will call the police instantly if they see any behavior they don't like, because they're almost all run by assholes who could give a fuck about the history of the place, and what REALLY attracts tourists to their businesses. Hint: It's not their overpriced shit.
> 
> It's not as if there's even many places on the Haight you could sit down legally even before this stupid law passed, since businesses own the sidewalk in front of them and most of them don't allow you to hang out there.
> 
> As a busker, I hate elitist buskers who pretend that they are awesome while people out there spanging are pieces of shit. You aren't better than anybody else just because you have an instrument. As for "if you don't like it, don't go there", as long as we stand (literally) for this shit, the more cities it will pass in, and eventually there won't be anywhere you can go without being harassed simply for resting your weary bones.



then do something about it instead of just talking about it... i see an aweful lotta bark and no bite in this thread


----------



## MrD

shwillyhaaa said:


> then do something about it instead of just talking about it... i see an aweful lotta bark and no bite in this thread


 
lolwut, this is StP, what do you expect?!?!1?


----------



## shwillyhaaa

MrD said:


> lolwut, this is StP, what do you expect?!?!1?



eh... theres no use in arguing with a community of openly close minded people


----------



## Dameon

I'm not in SF, so there's really nothing I can do. If I was there, I'd be sitting on the sidewalk in protest.


----------



## venusinpisces

shwillyhaaa said:


> the people who really deserve to be cut a break are the people who are making something of themselves while being there. playing good music or selling art you put time into i think is a reasonable way to spend your time as a "homeless" person. but screaming about anarchy at passerby and breaking shit...being drunk and disorderly... pissing yourself and hitting your dog... fuck yea id make you walk too.


 The problem here is that there are already laws in place to deal with these situations. And the SF mayor, Gavin Newsom, really *is* an evil bastard who wants to exterminate homeless people. Formerly, there was a welfare program in SF where, contrary to popular opinion, you actually did have to work to get your check. He replaced the program with Care Not Cash, a program where homeless people have to clean out the tanks under buses, full of the aforementioned piss as well as who knows what other bodily excretion, at 7AM for the privilege of sleeping in a nasty, overcrowded city shelter that kicks you out every morning at 4 AM. The shelter has an 9PM curfew and you don't even get to choose what you eat. 

The "residents" spend 85% of their income on paying "rent" to the shelter. The SF mayor has basically completely robbed them of any ability to have a decent standard of living while also taking away their autonomy and ability to make independent decisions about their own income. This is especially disturbing because the shelters are overwhelmingly black while most of the people who voted for the measure are white. What Newsom did was really not too different than reinstituting slavery, short of the part about being allowed to beat people. How can you possibly say this is not evil? 

The problem with these bullshit "quality of life laws" is that they just funnel more people into jail for victimless crimes. And there is a very slippery slope between targeting people who are completely insane pissing-themselves home bums, and regular "respectable" squatters who "contribute" to society. In NYC, an entire network of squats has been destroyed because of similar laws. And the residents were very productive, hard-working people who had done construction on the buildings, tended organic gardens, were active in community organizing, etc. Mayor Giuliani's anti-homeless crackdown was initially justified by violent crimes and the idea that the homeless were an eyesore that chased away shoppers. Pretty soon you could not have sidewalk sales, sleep in your own car, and the hot dog vendors were shut down. So before placing supposedly productive squatters in a separate category, it may be worth taking history into consideration.

Here is a site made by several neighborhood groups organizing to fight the sit lie law in SF. Hopefully somebody reading will be rich enough to send them a donation. Cuz there ain't no nation like a *donation*! Sidewalks are for People


----------



## ericafuckyea

great, what a good idea! now all the kids who were previously silently flying their signs on powell or haight not really bothering anyone are gonna be walking around aggressively crack spanging. or snatching purses at the wharf, or selling can openers and ipod chargers on hyde and turk. or breaking into cars. or stealing razorheads from walgreens and selling them on fifth and market. or selling their foodstamps to mamasans. or stealing bikes. or selling meth. what a fucking improvement. 
its stupid for the city because they dont realise that the people sitting or lying around represent by far the most harmless faction of 'street people' in sf. its like that broken window theory with graffiti, that the appearance of crime going unpunished (ie - unbuffed graff, visible homeless people) in a certain area leads to more real crime. so if you clean up the tags and sweep the homeless into shelters and shit the bigger problems magically dissapear, obviously flawed logic... it's surface level bullshit and politicians, especially newsom, are lazy shits who just want to look like they've got the publics' best interest at heart...
you learn to adapt to this shit. from my experience it's illegal to loiter and panhandle everywhere. you get tickets for sleeping outside, spanging, and obstructing the sidewalk all the time in nyc and new orleans and every other major city. this is the type of shit you get fined and arrested for even if it's not actually a written law or ordinance...


----------



## RideMoreTrains

i travel alone and rarely (if ever) do i have run ins with the cops. occasionally down south i will get hassled for hitchhiking but a lot of the time the cops just give me a ride anyway. its all about how you carry yourself. san fran. has a large homeless population. the city is probably tired of dealing with a majority of them. this just makes its easier for them to sweep us up, but realistically the cops aren't going to arrest every single homeless person seen sitting down. again how do you carry yourself? i don't sit on the sidewalk with a 40 in my hand begging for spare change. if i needed money i'll work for it. i don't beg for anything. if you don't act like an asshole the cops will leave you alone. believe it or not people sitting on the side walk pissing themselves and asking for money is annoying! 
i've traveled for well over a decade now and the only times i went to jail are when i probably deserved it. when i wasn't being a drunk shithead the cops leave me a lone. no cop really wants to deal with a stinky homeless person. i was on the road for 4 or 5 months last year and i even had one bull drive me to the jungle. i had one state trooper drive me and hour down I-20. couple other run ins but nothing but warrant checks and free to go. 
cops can't realistically lock up all homeless people. usually there locking up the ones being obvious nuisances.


----------



## venusinpisces

Actually, there are many places where cops can and will arrest you just for looking a certain way or just about anything else. This is why New Orleans laws like "molesting a hamburger" exist: to get rid of undesirable elements. Yes, you can certainly make this easier for them by acting like an idiot and unfortunately many people do. Police crackdowns tend to come more often when there is any hint of organization, which is probably why solo travelers get harassed less frequently.

But the problem with being apathetic about unnecessary laws is that it prevents the establishment of long-term squats that can exist in much better conditions than ones where squatting is illegal. Where homelessness is illegal, there is no incentive to maintain your camp or building because it will only be evicted anyways. That's why you find so many disgusting squats and camps that are basically uninhabitable. Whereas, in Europe, squats are much cleaner and full of regular people who are working, going to school, etc. When I stayed in any of the long term Lower East Side squats like Dos Blockos, C-Squat or ABC No Rio, not once did I see piles of garbage, uncapped needles or people pissing in the corner. Because these were people's *homes* and they wanted to maintain them. Squats can serve as a community organizing/arts space and this is a better goal to aim for than temporary buildings that attract police, even though these will be necessary at times as well. The history behind squatters movements is that the people involved in them believed that everyone had a right to housing. Living conditions were only unsanitary because they were illegal--the practices of urban homesteading mean that you can maintain a building without it turning into a dump. Quality of life laws prevent this idea from becoming a reality because they criminalize everything except for wage slavery.


----------



## CXR1037

The Bay's been making it easy to be a homebum. So many "altruists" out there, always giving. It's like the birds in the park, don't feed them and they'll go away. 
SF is tired of having homeless people everywhere. Isn't it their right to do so? It should be put to a vote amongst people who actually contribute to society. 

All the homebums will probably come over here to Oakland and Berkeley, now.


----------



## Uncle Mom

I was in Portland OR when they first put the NO SIT NO LIE law into effect, and then by chance I was also there when they deemed it UNCONSTITUTIONAL...

I travel with a chair. I have trouble getting up and down from the sidewalk anyways. Does anyone know if a chair is ok? what about busking?

Another question: this isn't fucking with Berkley is it? 

I haven't been to Cali since 2009. I am going to be there this summer though. WTF.


----------



## Beegod Santana

Uncle Mom said:


> I was in Portland OR when they first put the NO SIT NO LIE law into effect, and then by chance I was also there when they deemed it UNCONSTITUTIONAL...
> 
> I travel with a chair. I have trouble getting up and down from the sidewalk anyways. Does anyone know if a chair is ok? what about busking?
> 
> Another question: this isn't fucking with Berkley is it?
> 
> I haven't been to Cali since 2009. I am going to be there this summer though. WTF.


 
I think you'll fine with the chair. I've used little stools and shit to get around sit/lies in a buncha cities. Police seem to respect buskers with chairs, its weird. Another good trick is to stash your pack while busking and you're a lot less likely to get fucked with. 

As a haight kid this really pisses me off. I hardly ever spend time there anymore but the park seemed like home to me for years. I really hope we can beat this like we did in portland. I feel bad for all you people who rank on SF, you missed out on one of the best cities in america.

I pretty much just keep telling myself "this too will pass." Some of the cops hate us, but a lot of them like us believe it or not. They don't wanna waste time doing this shit, eventually the mayor will be off the haight and people won't wanna pay the cops just to drive around the park on a dirt bike all day harassing travelers. Watch out for that guitar playing cop though. He's not the worst one in the world, but he does have a nasty trick involving dead songs, plain clothes and busting kids for L. Never really seen him fuck with someone for pot though.


----------



## reeferreefs

When i was on the streets of newyork i was being harassed I was being harassed constantly flying a sign Because the cops realized the tourist were enjoying the many different crazy things i would write. its not ok for a homeless person to have a funny sign but its ok for a old man to be in a bikini with his wrinkly ass shaking and grown men in just underwear lol But i fully clothed cant ask for money for weed, Or ask for change to piss off strippers whats this world come too
ReeferReef


----------

