# Is Green Energy really Clean Energy ??



## Deleted member 13433 (Apr 22, 2020)

You know, I don't like being lied to... and since about late December, and definately earlier this year I've been questioning the validity of solar energy and wind energy, wondering if it is really worth it.
I came close to buying a new hybrid vehicle, but wound up with my 2002 Monte Carlo SS instead... and some of that was because I started to educate myself on how the batteries are made, along with useful life, etc....

Anyhow, last night I got turned on to this:  
Say what you want about Michael, but he really nailed it here.

I stated hearing that solar and wind energy was nothing more than a money making brainwashing hoax from a whack job named James Mccanny who has a science program on shortwave radio [anyone beside me listen to the airwaves ??] and he was stating how the whole thing is a hoax, and why.... but now after watching this video, I have completely changed my views on supposed clean green energy, since now it is apparently actually a very dirty source of fuel from the get go.....

But, judge for yourselves, the video is quite long, about an hour and forty minutes maybe, but I think it's really worth it.


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## Deleted member 125 (Apr 22, 2020)

Are you seriously asking if solar and wind energy are viable forms of energy or if they are a "money making brainwashing hoax"?

Holy shit dude.


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## Deleted member 13433 (Apr 22, 2020)

Yes I am.... did you watch the whole video ??
It really got me seeing things very different than I originally thought....
Like I said, I don't like being lied to.
*edit - especially from the supposed good guys.


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## Beegod Santana (Apr 22, 2020)

Ya, my 15 yr old solar panel that's been powering my spot for the last 4 yrs is totally a government conspiracy. Shoulda been buying and burning Diesel that whole time!


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## Deleted member 125 (Apr 22, 2020)

OTTERWOLF said:


> Yes I am.... did you watch the whole video ??
> It really got me seeing things very different than I originally thought....
> Like I said, I don't like being lied to.
> *edit - especially from the supposed good guys.



No I didnt even click the link. Because I can smell bullshit without having to directly put my nose into it.

Yer buying into some wingnut conspiracy stuff. Solar and especially wind energy are absolutely viable forms of power that are not only cheaper for you, but they also dont kill the planet quite as much as other forms of energy.


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## Deleted member 13433 (Apr 22, 2020)

ok.... I see where this is going..... 

I guess since nobody is going to bother watch this - @SlankyLanky you want me to delete this or do you want to delete this ??

Either way works for me.......


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## Beegod Santana (Apr 22, 2020)

I mean if you wanna actually summarize the main arguments and provide links that back them up I'm all ears. I'm not gonna attempt to stream a 1hr movie by some shortwave wingnut who's probably some Koch operative.


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## Deleted member 13433 (Apr 22, 2020)

@Beegod Santana I think on a small scale solar and wind is very good, but not on a mass scale, like trying to power an entire city or metropolitian area.
It simply can't be done without using fossil fuels or exploiting huge open spaces of land - or wilderness for that matter.
Don't get me wrong, I wish I could be done, but after viewing this I seriously have my doubts.


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## Deleted member 125 (Apr 22, 2020)

@OTTERWOLF I'm sorry if me and one other person disagreeing with you is all it takes for you to want to delete yer post. Would you prefer people not try to tell you when you are wrong or not bother to share their opinions? 

Didn't you undeleted yer profile before and say you were going to not take people disagreeing with you so personally in the future?

There is no valid reason for this thread to be deleted. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it.


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## Deleted member 13433 (Apr 22, 2020)

It's not from that shortwave looney, this is a Michael Moore film, and it's the first one I've seen that he's done right - in my opinion....

But hey, it's all good.

Time to enjoy a nice sunny afternoon outside with my dog


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## Deleted member 13433 (Apr 22, 2020)

@SlankyLanky yes you are correct, but that was something completely different.

And no, I just get pissed off when people jump to conclusions before checking things out for themselves.

I'm at a point in my life where I trust/believe no one.

I came across this link at of all places a Trapping Forum that I belong to, and there's a real shit show there because those who refuse to watch it say its crap, those who sat through it say it's done quite well and gets you thinking.

I thought it might not be a bad idea to post it here.
I'm just kind of surprised that there is zero interest in watching something like this.

It's cool, another lesson learned for me here.......
I'm out - play time with my dog


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## Odin (Apr 22, 2020)

@OTTERWOLF I think you are correct it is a matter of scale to an extent.

Having a personal wind and solar setup to power your small house/cabin is great.... although geothermal would be my choice if possible.

I will check the vid later but a simple search had me find this from NPR from a concern I remember with wind... anyone gonna call NPR wingnuts?

So lets see how friendly wind power can be on a mega scale.



replacing, disposing of (landfills) and transporting the turbine blades is what is discussed there I think.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconventional_wind_turbines
this part of wiki gives great examples of how I would like to see wind power implemented more... such as an example of a drum? type turbine mounted atop a light pole... if every single light pole in neighborhoods and along main roads and highways was set up like this....


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## Beegod Santana (Apr 22, 2020)

My bad, shitty connection and what not. I'm no fan of Michael Moore either though. I've never watched his early stuff but everything I've seen from him since bowling for Columbine was pretty much junk. He sets out to prove he's right, and just ignores anything that might prove otherwise. Tons of appeals to emotions too which always drives me nuts.


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## MFB (Apr 23, 2020)

I skimmed through the vid in about 30 minutes; essentially green energy is about dollas, exploiting ignorance, and maximum profit like everything else. Makes sense.

Admittedly, I dont know much about the subject, so those who are more educated please chime in;
But this seems far more feasible if Americans were less wasteful and excessive with energy usage; if we were more considerate of how much energy we were using.
In my experience, America is the only country where everyone has a full size fridge, dryers, big ol dishwashers, etc. A lot of people have a basement/garage/beer fridge in addition too the one in their kitchen. Other countries most people have much smaller fridges, hang their clothes after washing, and just way fewer outlets in general. SUVs are pretty rare in other countries.
We would rather find solutions for irresponsible behavior rather than change that behavior.

When I'm living in my 5th wheel, my freezer is winter time.


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## Stiv Rhodes (Apr 23, 2020)

The point of the film wasn't that solar and wind promotion is a brainwashing hoax. It was that industrialization can't be sustainable and that greenwashing/green capitalism is an refusal to admit that.


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## Jackthereaper (Apr 23, 2020)

OTTERWOLF said:


> @Beegod Santana I think on a small scale solar and wind is very good, but not on a mass scale, like trying to power an entire city or metropolitian area.
> It simply can't be done without using fossil fuels or exploiting huge open spaces of land - or wilderness for that matter.


I agree that solar and wind especially can be very damaging to local fuana. But, gen4 nuclear is coming and i for one hope we embrace it. Using molten salt reactors to burn off old nuclear waste and decomissioned bombs makes a ton of sense to me, and its all demonstrably viable technology (as far as my limited minds grasp can tell). 

India seems to be on it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/India's_three-stage_nuclear_power_programme


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## Deleted member 13433 (Apr 23, 2020)

Well, I just finished watching it... and the next person who asks me if I want to convert to solar energy for my home had better start running.

I always knew mankind was going out of their way to destroy forests, deserts, you name it - entire eco systems - all for the sake of the almighty dollar - I just had no idea it was being done on such a mass scale under the guise of green energy such as bio fuels and solar.

I'm really mad because i bought into the whole green movement, only to find out it's all a fucking lie.

Damn it, like - maybe 20 years ago - I got approached by a young woman who had loads of VHS-S and UMATIC video of the after effects of redwood destruction, not only the filming of it - but the devestation that followed, regarding the wildlife and how it never grew back.
She - I believe her name was Jessica - was experimenting with time lapse video, which I had not known to be possible at the time [although both my VHS-S-HD and UMATIC machine do have variable speed settings...] using video - film yes, but video I did not believe was possible.

Anyhow, she got arrested before she got to drop off the videos at my studio, as I was to do the soundtrack work and editing... but it never happened, and truth be told I forgot all about it until the last 15 minute of this film which I linked here.

Those last 15 minutes really shook me up - starting with the dumping of the animals in that machine which grinds them up for animal fats... but the part with the dying primates was even worse.

I've seen such things out here myself in person when mass development occurs, and it is absolutely horrifying to bear witness to it knowing that there is nothing one can do to stop it.

With no contact info, it will be next to impossible to track Jessica down.

All I know is that she was a hardcore young enviromentalist who was setting out to be a documentary film maker while living out west, filming things that could have gotten her killed.

I'm appreciative of those who checked out the link I posted and get something from it.

I'll pray for those who feel it's all bullshit, that Green energy could never be bad.... because I used to feel the same exact way.

I'm out.
I got some phone calls to make.


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## Beegod Santana (Apr 23, 2020)

So I tried to watch the end and went right to the part where a guy is pointing at 45 150watt panels and saying it could only run a 1200 watt toaster. 45x150=6750 watts. Still a little weak to run a stage that size but I've run slightly smaller ones on 5kwatt generators before and it's over 5x what the guy in the video says.

Here's the thing too, they may be 200watt banks (9000watts total), I assume they're 150watt which is what my 15 yr old one is, but newer ones can be up to 200watt.

In conclusion, Michael Moore is a liar and a hack.


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## Deleted member 13433 (Apr 24, 2020)

@Beegod Santana ok.. I can appreciate that - but let me ask you a question: how long can those panels run at rated output without any help from fossil fuels ??

I'm serious - can you get ten hours continious usage out of them if the sun is shining on them, at rated capacity ?? and then what happens when the sun ducks behind clouds ??

My only experience with solar is using a panel to keep the batteries in my mighty diesel van charged.

Like lets say I want to power my existing home with solar and get off the grid entirely where there is no connection to any utilities.

My elec bill is anywhere from $250.00 to $450.00 per month, depending on what kind of work the recording studio is seeing.

When the recording studio is in full operation, I am typically running three 20a circuits at say 12 amps, no wait - I know for sure one is pulling 15a continious.... and if there is working being performed upstairs as sometimes the artists choose to utilize both upstairs and downstairs for isolation reasons, and then that's like three to four more 15a circuits running probably at 8 - 10a, as I try not to push things too hard, and this is without factoring in AC in the summer, which will really drive up usage.

If I'm running a 10 hour session with that kind of power requirements - since my studio is old tube gear, can I do that with solar ??

I told one person a while back I require 120v 200a continuious service and he turned as white as a ghost because I do not like to max out my requirements, like I say I need 200a but it might be only 100a that I am using... so I do not max out my power requirements...

Would I need to have my entire garage filled with batteries ??
What happens when the panels fail, or the batteries turn to shit ??

Listen, don't get me wrong - I wish I could do this - but I can't and I am not willing to have panels all over the place which would fuck up my garden which is very wildlife and insect/bird friendly.

I'm just concerned that on a global level with the human population that we are ever expanding - green energy is not the way to go because of what is required to make it work and keep it going 24/7 no matter what.

On a side note, one year the electric company punished me by taking away my residential rates and making me commercial... and at first I was alarmed, but in the end my bills went down because the peak usage times literally reversed, and became very much in my favor.

Lastly - Michael Moore did not make that movie, the other guy did.
Michael Moore just put it out.

I really sincerely thought some might sit through the whole thing, I guess I was wrong.

No worries, I'll never post something like this ever again here as this is the wrong forum for such things.

Time to do more searching on line, as my phone calls yesterday got me closer to that eco film maker I am trying to track down....

Appologies for the typos, as I seem to get worse with that as time goes on.....


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## Beegod Santana (Apr 24, 2020)

A 2x4 lithium power bank can easily hold enough power to power a house. Your power use will depend on the size inverter you run. My panel is only 150, but once I use it to power 4 golf cart batteries (6hrs in the sun) I can run a 1000watt inverter for about an hour. I normally just use a 300watt one though at that will last me a whole day on 4 cart batteries.

My main point though is that the very first scene I saw in this movie is ripe with disinformation. Anyone slightly familiar with how solar works would know these guys are full of it, so obviously they're marketing this to people who know nothing about it. If you don't like being lied to than this is not the film for you.


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## Deleted member 13433 (Apr 25, 2020)

that's right... these things are 12 volts output, I forgot about that...
So, that 1000w inverter - is that 1000w @ 12v or 1000w @ 120v ?? 

Only asking because I'm not up to snuff on how these things actually work.

Believe me, if I lived in the middle of nowhere an extremely minimalist lifestyle, I'd have a small solar and wind set up to power my 2 way single side band radio equipment, my shortwave radio gear, but that would probably be about it because everything else would be sold or given away as it would no longer serve any kind of purpose.

But for my current lifestyle, there's just no way - and I'm not willing to have panels all over the place - I forgot what they told me when I got caught by a solar salesman one day, but I do know he mentioned I'd need to compromise my way of living to make it work and I was like you can forget that as my love of working with sound and video is far too great to walk away from at this point in time.

If I think of it - I'll see if I can get some answers regarding the solar array they had/have?? on the roof of the new engineering building where I work, which to me was pretty good sized although I am not sure exact dimensions - maybe 75ft by 300ft ??

This was maybe around year 2000 or so... and they made a big deal about it too, had all kinds of big gauges and read outs in real time so interested people at the plant could view how much electricity was being generated, and I'll be honest I was sold because the numbers - everything about it - seemed very impressive to me, but then a co-worker* who really understands this stuff kinda laughed and said, yeah that's like maybe enough to power 6 homes.....

I saw [*Reuban...] today too, in the men's room..... I'll have to track him down and see if he remembers, because I now remember being super impressed while he felt it was embarrassing [the output of the solar set up the company put up...]

Now, I'll close with this - that was say twenty years ago - but today... all those displays and gauges are long gone from the engineering building lobby, no trace exists anywhere of this plan to generate energy from the sun, I'll see if any of the building maint. people know if the panels are still up on the roof.

As for the film I posted here, I'm hearing that the enviromental community wants it pulled immediately, which makes me want to see it again to see what their problem is with it.

I mean, if the common consensus is the film is a lie, then what's the problem - nobody would care to watch it - just like on here [STP] correct ??

ok... enough of me.... I'm out and off to sleep.

PS - no luck with tracking down that film maker I was trying to relocate, but then again with at least twenty years passing, and the nature of her subject matter being documented anything is possible....

First name was Jessica, in 1999 she was in her early to mid 20's as far as age went.

Real hardcore person who set out to document the destruction of these forests I think in Colorado..... and I remember telling her friend though how I met Jess that I would finance full production of it, so no cost of Jess's part that's how important it was to me to help her out , because I heard enough things about what she video'd to know this was very important to get out onto screens, at least on a local/independent level....


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## Deleted member 13433 (Apr 25, 2020)

*oh, one thing I want to close with - as I don't want to be accused of wasting too much energy on this thread which did not go over too well:

It was the forest eating power plants - which also run on fossil fuels that enraged me, when I saw what was going on in Burlington VT, that got my attention.

Also - and I bet the militant vegans loved finding out about this - how some clean green fuels which are based on animal fats, and things like corn, and- here's the best part - require fossil fuels to produce.

The one thing I got out of this film was that these alternative means to produce power rely on the consumption of other living things - be it forests, animals, food sources.... and in this age of where much of the world starves, that to me is beyond disgusting.

It also seems to me that to produce much of this green energy - more fossil fuels are used to produce the green energy sources than the benefits realized, ok... maybe that's the wrong phrase but it's almost like the cure is worse than the disease, like how that jerk in the white house advocates shooting up bleach to cure C19, now why didn't I think of that.......

Ok. I promise I won't waste anymore bandwidth on this, but this above actually woke me out of a deep sleep just now....

If you want to watch a film that really inspired me, check out Waterwalker by Bill Mason.
There's some real moving parts where he discusses how the forests are dying, and how where there's this one particular power plant [this is on the Canadian side of L. Superior] everything is dead, nothing lives.

Planet of Humans has inspired me to come out of retirement regarding my own war against those who choose to pollute, and that is going to make a whole lot of people who supported my work very happy, and those who didn't very very mad......

God Earth One A-T-W-A AIR TREES WATER ANIMALS

*edit: these pictures below are just a small portion of what I devoted 8 solid years to my life to, which included but was not just limited to river clean up, wildlife rescue, documenting factories which pollute waterways and kill fish, and a poorly photographed copy of the only new paper article that got my struggle right. At one point I had over 4000 images saved, but when I took down 3 Facebook pages I had going, those images vanished forever...

I hope that these images show that I indeed do care about our planet, and am not judged too harshly for questioning the trend of clean green energy, especially since major corporations are involved and behind it.


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## Older Than Dirt (Apr 25, 2020)

OTTERWOLF said:


> A-T-W-A AIR TREES WATER ANIMALS



Charlie Manson Rules FTW!


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## Stiv Rhodes (Apr 27, 2020)

I talked to a solar technician who has his own house on solar which he said he loves, and still a large part of the conversation was him emphasizing it's limitations and the fact that it's not really as green as people think. The panels and batteries are highly toxic and don't last forever. The pollution just isn't seen at the point of consumption. He still has to supplement with a gas generator on cloudy or rainy days and use propane for all his heating and cooking and ration his power use at night in order for his fridge to stay on till sunrise. It's still probably better than burning coal or petroleum, but there's no clean energy. Hydro electric use to be thought of as green energy until they realized the ecological damage that damming a river caused, even though it doesn't pollute.


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## Odin (Apr 27, 2020)

Stiv Rhodes said:


> I talked to a solar technician who has his own house on solar which he said he loves, and still a large part of the conversation was him emphasizing it's limitations and the fact that it's not really as green as people think. The panels and batteries are highly toxic and don't last forever. The pollution just isn't seen at the point of consumption. He still has to supplement with a gas generator on cloudy or rainy days and use propane for all his heating and cooking and ration his power use at night in order for his fridge to stay on till sunrise. It's still probably better than burning coal or petroleum, but there's no clean energy. Hydro electric use to be thought of as green energy until they realized the ecological damage that damming a river caused, even though it doesn't pollute.



You are speaking to the choir.... 

Humans easily delude themselves... 

It's a choice though between simple pastoral living... waiting for a cataclysm... like an ELE asteroid or Super Volcanoes to wipe us out... 

OR PROGRESS. 

OR IS IT????

And I hate that word, progress... because it is so deceptive. 

As this clean energy idea can ... maybe seem to be. 

Perhaps there is a way to use renewable energy systems while becoming intelligent enough as a human culture to not overtax the biological systems this planet is based on... 

I'm not sure what is possible... 

BUT I am wiling to hope and take a chance... 

So, as all of human history has gone on and on and on... 

I suppose we shall find out.


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## MFB (Apr 27, 2020)

Odin said:


> Humans easily delude themselves...
> 
> It's a choice though between simple pastoral living... waiting for a cataclysm... like an ELE asteroid or Super Volcanoes to wipe us out...
> 
> ...


To me, 
Humanity has mostly never had the wisdom needed to match it's amazing intelligence and ability of manipulating external surroundings. 

Ya give the right tool to the wrong man and...


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## Deleted member 24782 (Apr 27, 2020)

NO. But it put's on the right track to some awesome futuristic primitive utopia!!!


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## boongah4 (May 6, 2020)

First, I'd like to recommend a book related to the topic:

http://vaclavsmil.com/2010/06/01/en...bringing-science-to-the-energy-ploicy-debate/
This is a pretty accessible read for anyone interested in the question of how energy transitions take place and why some forms of energy work better than others. 

At the outset, I think we need to be realistic about where we are, how we got here, and what the prospects are for the various paths we might take next. Smil's book lays some of that out in pretty straight-forward manner. 

The main thing to pay attention to -- I think -- is energy density. So if you want to replace a coal-burning plant with a solar farm you first have to consider what the output of that coal plant is. The largest coal generating plant in the U.S. is WA Parish Generating Station in Texas. It has an annual output of 3.65 GW. The largest photovoltaic power station in the world is Bhadla Solar Park in India which has an annual output of 2.245 GW (I think that's planned not actual).

At first that might not seem like much of a difference but consider the following:

WA Parish occupies roughly one square mile. Bhadla Solar Park occupies about 15.5 square miles (for comparison that is twice the land area of Cambridge, MA). Keep in mind you will need about one and half Bhadla Solar Parks to do away with WA Parish. So you need an area of about 23 square miles or roughly half the land area of Boston.

So in 2019, the U.S. used about 4.12 trillion KWh of electricity or about 4.12 million GWh which roughly is about 11,200 GWh per day. A gigawatt hour is a sustained consumption over an hour. Basically, the grid needs to be delivering 11,200 GW so you need something like 56 plants rated for 2GW to meet the demand. And again, the assumes peak efficiency which often is not the case.

[Please feel free to correct my math I'm doing this without looking things up so I might screw up some units or other calculations, I appreciate any help ]

At first this seems straight-forward. 56 Bhadla Solar Parks should do the trick. But keep in mind that is nearly 1000 square miles of photovoltaics. Basically, an area the size of Rhode Island.But there are some problems. Among them are:

Not all sites are equally advantageous for photovoltaics. For example, areas with lots of cloudy days will reduce the 2.245 GW peak output to something less. It's also not as simple as siting the photovoltaics in some remote desert. There are losses as power travels over the wires. The longer the wire the greater the loss. And those wires don't exist yet (despite talk of 'the grid' we actually have several discrete regional grids). Also, the sun does not shine at night which means the electrons generated during the day need to be stored. There are many schemes for doing this but pumped storage is probably the most common. Basically, you pump water uphill in the day time and store it in a reservoir until demand peaks at night. Then you release the water and use it to turn a turbine. It's sort of inefficient but it works in some locations (Northfield Mountain (hydroelectricity facility) - Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northfield_Mountain_(hydroelectricity_facility)).

Other choices are things like batteries. Basically, this technology doesn't really exist yet (and maybe not ever; I'm talking about grid-scale storage schemes not DIY off-grid home solar ). Lead acid batteries are the most practical choice as there are limits to the amount of Lithium available (World Lithium Supply - http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2010/ph240/eason2/). But here again there will be some losses in the charging and discharging of the batteries. 

You also have to consider things like where to site a solar generating plant. As mentioned, it's a land intensive method. We still have 7 billion people on the planet and 330 million here in the U.S. Those people need to live somewhere (and interestingly our current historical moment with COVID-19 might cause a rethink on dense urban lifestyles). In addition, this land also has to provide food. Also watershed protection. Forested land acts as a carbon sink and probably shouldn't be cleared for photovoltaics. And most people agree that certain tracts of land are a public trust that should be preserved for future generations. So we can't just start slapping solar panels all over the landscape willy nilly.

Finally, all this takes time. If we started in on this right now the permitting and funding process would be years maybe even a decade or more. I live in a very blue state and witnessed a town meeting where the construction of solar farm was voted down mainly for NIMBY reason. All I'm saying is that it takes time to transition from one form of energy to another.

I think one of the biggest problems we face is that the problem of climate change is not simple. There are no easy answers. But I do think that any solution that relies in large part on technologies that do not yet exist (grid-scale storage) is probably not something we should invest much hope in.

One last thing, I know this issue has become imbued with an almost Talismanic power in our current day with lots of strong emotions like fear and anxiety. It's not my intention to promulgate any ideology here. I'm trying very hard to limit myself to things that are basically proven fact. If I've put anything down here that is wrong please let me know. I'm happy to correct whatever I got wrong and will thank you for making me less dumb. All I ask is that when you do offer a correction to keep in mind that being wrong and being evil are two different things. Nothing gets better until we can talk this thing out.

Thanks.


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## Purplesalamander (Jun 16, 2020)

So I didn’t watch the video, and I don’t know what all points it mentions, but you’re right in saying that “green” energy isn’t really all that green. I don’t think anyone’s mentioned all of the mining that goes into creating solar panels and the like, but it wrecks environments outside of the United States. Plus there’s everything that has to be mined to create that battery for solar, which can mean lead. I don’t know as much about wind, geothermal, nuclear, etc, but there’s no way I would ever just assume it was even mostly good for the environment. Also, there’s this thing called carbon trading, which is a huge scam. It’s pretty complicated, so I don’t want to go into it (also bc I don’t fully understand it), but essentially it’s a way for large corporations to pollute but present to the public that they’re “green.”


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## Deleted member 24782 (Jun 16, 2020)

Purplesalamander said:


> So I didn’t watch the video, and I don’t know what all points it mentions, but you’re right in saying that “green” energy isn’t really all that green. I don’t think anyone’s mentioned all of the mining that goes into creating solar panels and the like, but it wrecks environments outside of the United States. Plus there’s everything that has to be mined to create that battery for solar, which can mean lead. I don’t know as much about wind, geothermal, nuclear, etc, but there’s no way I would ever just assume it was even mostly good for the environment. Also, there’s this thing called carbon trading, which is a huge scam. It’s pretty complicated, so I don’t want to go into it (also bc I don’t fully understand it), but essentially it’s a way for large corporations to pollute but present to the public that they’re “green.”



Mining isn't that bad for the environment, were just digging big holes and tunnels underground, were like ants.


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## Stiv Rhodes (Jun 16, 2020)

Mining is incredibly harmful to the environment. Forget the old image of tunneling with pickaxes. It's more like blowing up entire mountaintops, mixing toxic solvents into the slag, pumping the solution out, separating the ore and discarding the polluted wastewater.
https://web.mit.edu/12.000/www/m2016/finalwebsite/problems/mining.html


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## JessicaMcDonald (Jul 15, 2021)

My friend, it's time to get used to this, unfortunately, our world is so arranged that people lie to each other for their own benefit, as for them it has already become a habit without which they simply can not do.


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