# Van, bus or trailer?



## PinkLore

Ive been thinking a lot about my next set of wheels. I used have a ford econoline (even had the business logo from the people I got if off of).
It was a sweet van! But some things I want to do different...

-be able to stand up. I'm not really into a topper idea, since I would like to be able to walk in and out anytime.

-be able to cook. I had a camping stove, but the van was a tight squeeze for cooking inside of better off taking the stove outside. But then...might as well build a fire at that point.

-have a big bed--that can withstand a threesome. Not that I am into that kind of thing. But I would imagine bumps, and multiple people sitting on it would be the equivilant. I had a great big bed that I built a frame for that folded down. But that got to be more maintence as well and ended up breaking. Id like to have a bed that stayed in place all the time without adjustment.

-Easy to fix. Ford was a good make for fixing and finding parts for. Gas efficiency isn't so impprtanr to me. I've seen RVs jug across the country so I figure gas isn't a big deal as much as easy fixes.

-can accomidate passengers. My van was huge but could only seat 3-4 people because of the set up. Thats good enough for me, but if I see hitchhikers or have friends, I want them to be comfortable.

-windows. It might sound silly, but I actually want more light inside my space. My van had no windows in the back and it made me miss looking out into the distance from inside. 

It sounds dumb, but its part of the reason I don't feel sprinters.

So...what do you think? If I went for a van again, I would want to make adjustments to get my roof higher...but that seems like work I am pretty unfamiliar with. Realistically, I'm not sure how capable of that I would be...

There's also the idea of getting a pick-up and a little trailer. Throw my blankets in the flatbed, and use the trailer as a kitchen and a closet.

Or a bus....which seems like a big deal. I would need a CDL for one. I've also heard a lot of intimidating cons to bus-life. From trouble with cops to expensive breakdowns. Deisle fuel is a thing and while veggie oil sounds great in theory, it seems like a lot of mess and space.

At the same time, who really doesnt want a bus? A short bus would be awesome...

Has anyone heard of using bread-trucks (the FedEx busses?) I dont know if thats a good option, but I also know nothing about their repairs etc. Etc. 

Lovin STP and all you guys  thanks for any tips!!


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## Deleted member 21429

Step Vans are what I recommend. Same engines as all the other options. But I am not talking those long UPS and Fedex kind. Mine is 19 feet from the front of the front bumper to the back of the back bumper. Its 12 long to the back doors 6'-6" wide and 6'-4" high. Some are 10'. I waited and waited and waited till I found one with a gas engine and was an automatic. Best of luck to ya. ~ peace


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## Wild Ty Laserbeam

Honestly for you, I would recommend a full size van with a travel trailer. Plenty of room to hang out. Easy to get around town. Can carry extra people. Both trailers and vans can be had for pretty cheap. 

I personally have a 26 ft. Bus. It's awesome but I've ended towing a car behind it which makes me wish I just got a van and trailer.

Good luck. Let us know what you get


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## Sameer

Personally, I like a van because of the gas mileage and the idea that I can go anywhere, many places other RVs can't get too. I have a high top.
Reading your post I


think that you may have talked yourself out of a van and into something else. You might enjoy the extra space of a cargo trailer with a van. However, I do think you have talked yourself out of a van. Hahaha!


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## Wild Ty Laserbeam

Sameer said:


> Personally, I like a van because of the gas mileage and the idea that I can go anywhere, many places other RVs can't get too. I have a high top.
> Reading your post I
> View attachment 43098
> think that you may have talked yourself out of a van and into something else. You might enjoy the extra space of a cargo trailer with a van. However, I do think you have talked yourself out of a van. Hahaha!


Just curious, what are you getting for MPGs?


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## Bedheadred

If you register a bus as an RV, you do not need a CDL license. I am looking into getting a bus right now myself


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## Sameer

13 mph mostly.... the engine is pristine.... I've always done all the work myself.... that's good mileage for up and down the US 95 here in Nevada.


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## Deleted member 21429

Here's a great deal PinkLore https://albany.craigslist.org/cto/d/1973-chevrolet-step-van/6577631557.html ~ peace


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## erisACAB

Currently traveling in a older ford van and I dig the setup. Nice big bed and plenty of storage, but I feel you on wanting to stand up, cook inside and being able to carry more people. 

Prior to the van I was traveling in a older ford f150 with an in bed camper, and was a pretty nice setup. You could stand, it would sleep 4 people pretty comfortably in the back(5 if you got really cozy) plus one person up front in the cab. Our truck already had decent mpg and the camper definitely affected it quite a bit but it was still reasonable (probably 10-13 mpg from 18-20 without the camper). We got our camper for like 100 bucks in Austin off craigslist but that was a steal and it was kinda janky. I'd probably expect to spend more like 500-1000 on the camper and probably about the same on the truck. If you get the camper in the Fall/Winter it's probably gonna be way cheaper than spring/summer. 

I think one of the biggest benefits of this is that older ford trucks are ridiculously easy to work on, the parts are cheap at and widely available, as opposed to buses, or rvs where the parts might be hard to find and you most likely couldn't work on it yourself, or it'd be just way more of a pain in the ass. 

Hope you find what works best for you dude. Good luck!


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## Cornelius Vango

Bedheadred said:


> If you register a bus as an RV, you do not need a CDL license. I am looking into getting a bus right now myself



In order to register a bus as an RV, it has to have certain amenities and unless you have proof that it was professionally converted, you might have to pay a professional to look it over and say it's sound...

I registered by bus as commercial vehicle for non-commercial use and it was actually cheaper.


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## Bedheadred

Cornelius Vango said:


> I registered by bus as commercial vehicle for non-commercial use and it was actually cheaper.



I did not know that! I still have a lot to learn about buses as I am just now looking into it and doing research. Do you need a CDL license to register it like that?


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## Cornelius Vango

Bedheadred said:


> I did not know that! I still have a lot to learn about buses as I am just now looking into it and doing research. Do you need a CDL license to register it like that?


I didn't have to, as far as o know, unless its for commercial use, you don't have top, but my bus is a medium length at 25 ft so for a full length, the rules may be different, but I don't think so


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## CaptainCassius

PinkLore said:


> Has anyone heard of using bread-trucks (the FedEx busses?) I dont know if thats a good option, but I also know nothing about their repairs etc. Etc.



Seen a few box truck living space/workshop conversions which were pretty cool, you'd probably be alright with an old u-haul or Penske 

But I know a lot of the small bread trucks and delivery vans were never intended for highway travel and so have extremely low horsepower engines compared to the size of the damn thing, they just meant for them to putt around town.

At least with a bus you'd have a sturdy gearbox and high torque motor that ain't afraid to take hills.


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## Deleted member 20975

Right now im rocking the pick up with a box camper. Plenty of room (mine is small bur you can get even roomier ones). I love the standing room/table/storage/good sized bed/windows/stove/sink/etc. The only thing i dont like and why i want a van again next is to be able to go from bed to driver seat without having to go outside. Its pretty insignificant but is nice to have direct access to the back. The camper is an old busted ass piece of shit i got for $200 and my truck was my grandfathers. Old and not good on gas but originally free, so that effected my decision. 

If you are basically free to choose i still think in most cases a bus is overkill, a camper (box/pull) has its pluses and negatives, a good conversion/DIY van is best imo. Pull campers can be cool cause you can ditch them places but they can be a pain in the ass to maintain and cause alot of wind drag. Thats my opinion.


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## CaptainCassius

NotmybestNotmyworst said:


> Right now im rocking the pick up with a box camper. Plenty of room (mine is small bur you can get even roomier ones). I love the standing room/table/storage/good sized bed/windows/stove/sink/etc. The only thing i dont like and why i want a van again next is to be able to go from bed to driver seat without having to go outside. Its pretty insignificant but is nice to have direct access to the back. The camper is an old busted ass piece of shit i got for $200 and my truck was my grandfathers. Old and not good on gas but originally free, so that effected my decision.
> 
> If you are basically free to choose i still think in most cases a bus is overkill, a camper (box/pull) has its pluses and negatives, a good conversion/DIY van is best imo. Pull campers can be cool cause you can ditch them places but they can be a pain in the ass to maintain and cause alot of wind drag. Thats my opinion.



Cut a hole in the back of the camper about the same size as the truck cab rear window, rivet or form a lip on the siding so a rubber bellows type cab-to-shell seal will fit it (like the kind for a fiberglass topper) remove the rear window of the truck and now you got an access hatch to the truck cab.


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## Deleted member 20975

Its a '96 chevy, solid glass back window. Id rather just walk around then fuck shit up and make more work fo myself. Thanks tho


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## CaptainCassius

NotmybestNotmyworst said:


> Its a '96 chevy, solid glass back window. Id rather just walk around then fuck shit up and make more work fo myself. Thanks tho



It's just held in with a rubber seal around the lip of the glass and the lip of the window frame, fairly easy to remove with two people, you stick a hook in the seal from the inside(use soap to lubricate)and push outward working your way around while the helper holds onto the glass from outside the cab.

To pop it back in you do the opposite, or you can use a string around the seal to pull it back in instead of a hook.

Not saying you're wrong, Jus saying its an option


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## CaptainCassius

OH you know.. unless it's one of those that's glued in like your windshield, in which case, yeah it's a little trickier


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## Deleted member 20975

https://9gag.com/gag/aAx44Ed saw this and thought it was pretty sweet. Made me think if this thread. If the link dies, for the curious its a VW beetle with a camper attached at the top with a swivel thing. Im assuming you could disconnect and simply be driving your car around while camp is stored somewhere. Seems fun.


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## Deleted member 20975

And then theres this guy


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## Wild Ty Laserbeam

CDL stands for Commercial Drivers License. Unless you are using a vehicle for commerical purposes, you usually don't need a CDL. I think the exception might be actual semi- trucks and then only in certain states.

What it takes to register your bus/box truck/van as an RV will depend entirely on your state. It doesnt usually save you money on registration, but it saves lots of money on insurance. There's tons of info and knowledgeable folks on the skoolie.net forums


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## Object

I got a full size skoolie.. Looking to sell it BTW.. You dont ever need CDL unless commercially used. Or over 15 passengers. .


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## Wild Ty Laserbeam

Oh right. The passengers thing. I think that varies by state too.


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## RoadFlower33

Bedheadred said:


> If you register a bus as an RV, you do not need a CDL license. I am looking into getting a bus right now myself


Actually if you own a bus as a personal vehicle and you’re not using it as commerce you don’t need a CDL to drive anything I own two school buses part of the school nation I do my shit look into it close for yourself look at the fine print of the UCCIt gets interesting and you can’t register a bus as an RV and that is been converted into an RV and in order to do that you need three amenities and a bed does not count


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## RoadFlower33

Human said:


> I got a full size skoolie.. Looking to sell it BTW.. You dont ever need CDL unless commercially used. Or over 15 passengers. .


 Passenger amount doesn’t count either if it’s for personal transportation of personal possessions family or friends but then again states do it they want and don’t always follow the fedAs they should because highways are regulated by fed


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## Wild Ty Laserbeam

Guys I'm telling you. We can all sit here and speak from experience, but the main thing is IT DEPENDS ON YOUR STATE. You're going to have to do your own research regarding requirements for insurance and registration. The only thing that is universal is that you don't need a CDL. 

Go ask around on skoolie.net maybe try to find someone from your state there and see what they had to do


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## RoadFlower33

Blacks law dictionary is a good site for definitions.


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## RoadFlower33

Wild Ty Laserbeam said:


> Guys I'm telling you. We can all sit here and speak from experience, but the main thing is IT DEPENDS ON YOUR STATE. You're going to have to do your own research regarding requirements for insurance and registration. The only thing that is universal is that you don't need a CDL.
> 
> Go ask around on skoolie.net maybe try to find someone from your state there and see what they had to do


In my personal research the Federal standerd of rules for traveling applys acros the board. As it is a matter for the UCC and not being apart of the UCC exemps you from the UCC (Universal Commercial Code) no commercial no laws. You are free to travel


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## LysergicAbreaction

This is a topic that I have a ton of interest in right now!

I have enough money set aside to be able to buy just about any vehicle that I want... 

I want something which is suitable for travel as well as living.

I saw a "tiny house" on Craig's list that was connected to a trailer, it seemed pretty cool, though I would still need a vehicle to tow the house around.

I'm stuck between deciding on a van, a truck with covered back, a bus, a camper or RV, or any number of other mobile living environments such as the "tiny house" on a trailer....

The information and comments that have already been posted in this thread have been pretty helpful, but any further comments, suggestions, advice, and so on, would be very much appreciated. 

Thanks.


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## Wild Ty Laserbeam

LysergicAbreaction said:


> This is a topic that I have a ton of interest in right now!
> 
> I have enough money set aside to be able to buy just about any vehicle that I want...
> 
> I want something which is suitable for travel as well as living.
> 
> I saw a "tiny house" on Craig's list that was connected to a trailer, it seemed pretty cool, though I would still need a vehicle to tow the house around.
> 
> I'm stuck between deciding on a van, a truck with covered back, a bus, a camper or RV, or any number of other mobile living environments such as the "tiny house" on a trailer....
> 
> The information and comments that have already been posted in this thread have been pretty helpful, but any further comments, suggestions, advice, and so on, would be very much appreciated.
> 
> Thanks.



How about you start a new thread so we can actually dig into this considering your needs. It sounds like you are between a lot of very different options. Generally speaking though, those tiny homes, even on trailers, aren't designed for regular travel. Actually the main reason they usually build them on trailers is as a Dodge for building permits, etc.


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## mouse

PinkLore said:


> -be able to stand up. I'm not really into a topper idea, since I would like to be able to walk in and out anytime.
> 
> -have a big bed--



One cheat to address the "standing up" thing is to put in a solid floor (plywood, whatever) and get a rolling office chair. You can roll around all over the place inside the van and not have to stoop. If it reclines it makes it easier to dress in.


The big bed will be a challenge. Even big RVs tend to have downsized beds. If one goes axially in a van (front to back) it will take up a ton of the cargo area. And few vans have the width to go longitudinally (side to side).

I know you don't like eurostyle vans but I picked one (Promaster) because I could sleep crossways in it (6' tall, with a few inches of extra space). The interior space feels like a studio apartment, and there's acres of space on the roof for panels.

Everything in the progress shots below is scrap/thrift except a half-dozen 2x4s and the foam mattress.




























Bed's big enough for me and two rescues. That's what three-way means, right?


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## fimbulvetr

So, personally I like the trailer idea. If your truck does, you just get a new one and don't lose your whole rig. The downside is that a lot of places don't let you just park them on city streets... I think it could be easy to get around by slapping a landscaping or plumbing logo on it and being very discreet about things like solar panels, on my van I put a pvc water tank around the solar panels which hides them and gives it more of a work van appearance. I think the less people suspect you are living in your vehicle when in a city, the better. Cities are getting pretty inhospitable to poor people and vagrants these days and as the country adopts more conservative policy I don't expect that to change any time soon.


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## RoadFlower33

It is all personal realy. I have lived in all of them. Car, truck, tahoe, trailer, short bus, full empty bus, full converted bus... never done much city camping in anything but my ruck. accept just to pass threw, and you normally dont get much gruff in a bus I noticed. It's a common thing now. Just dont look like trash rolling down the road...


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## WyldLyfe

Vans prob the best out of those three.. imo. busses to slow, every ones gonna notice more, those daam round abouts, prob takes more petrol too. The trailer is like a van but the two parts are split in two, vans trailer an car in one. Im getting a new van soon, so is someone else i know #VanGang. Another person i know is a interstate truck driver, he got no home, lives in his truck drives an travels around an gets paid for it. Keep it legit.

EDIT: I mean a bus might be cool if you got a heap of people going across country.., BirdDaddy or anyone why did you chose a bus over a van exactly?


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## RoadFlower33

Originally my ex and I got the bus. It was a own your own home kinda idea. We had plans for busines and travel, Art and festivals!... long story short and 6 years later. Life kept beating our plans and she gave up. She left me almost two years ago, SO now I have a bus and I'm single af lol!! life is still beating my plans, but I'm not giving up. I'm a kinda contractor, textile artist, mechanic,welder, farmer/gardener DIYer person. My goal is to make enough money with seasonal work and my art to pay my gas food and temporary rent. I would boondock as much as possible tho and winter in places like the slabs, NM,AZ, Mexico.... but I'm also a ski bum so paying a storage fee/lot rent for the winter and working resort town ski areas and selling at local festivals and out of shops while there is a thing I do right now already. I'm also lucky enough to have a place in Colorado and a place in Idaho with free rent for as long as I want with my bus a perk not many have and I am very blessed. So it made it easy to have a place to leave it and take off and be cheap if I want... like now, free parking has been a godsend!!!!


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## WyldLyfe

BirdDaddy said:


> Originally my ex and I got the bus. It was a own your own home kinda idea. We had plans for busines and travel, Art and festivals!... long story short and 6 years later. Life kept beating our plans and she gave up. She left me almost two years ago, SO now I have a bus and I'm single af lol!! life is still beating my plans, but I'm not giving up. I'm a kinda contractor, textile artist, mechanic,welder, farmer/gardener DIYer person. My goal is to make enough money with seasonal work and my art to pay my gas food and temporary rent. I would boondock as much as possible tho and winter in places like the slabs, NM,AZ, Mexico.... but I'm also a ski bum so paying a storage fee/lot rent for the winter and working resort town ski areas and selling at local festivals and out of shops while there is a thing I do right now already. I'm also lucky enough to have a place in Colorado and a place in Idaho with free rent for as long as I want with my bus a perk not many have and I am very blessed. So it made it easy to have a place to leave it and take off and be cheap if I want... like now, free parking has been a godsend!!!!



Cool man and thanks for sharing an explaining! sorry about your chick tho, at least you got a few different skills its helpful for travellers and anyone, iv been a bit into farming and gardening in the past too, more gardening though. Thats alright about your free rent with the bus too in those locations, speaking of snow an ski resorts, a family friend use to own one, but they didn't make enough money with it or just wanted to move eventually, but staying there was alright, up in the mountains, most people don't realise is snows in certain parts of Australia, its a remote place too an the area an surrounding areas are naturally beautiful. I thought driving the bus around round abouts would be awkward! now you telling me you drive it in the snow too, nice cuzzi! But to get to the ski resort im talking about it was kinda up hill, down hill, up hill again winding roads and cars need them chains on the tyres, it would be a bit weird driving a bus there i reckon but.. might be funny. Thanks for chattin & all best.


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## RoadFlower33

Honestly never thought about if Australias mountians got snow or not. Good to know tho as I plan to go one day. You would be surprised how ez a bus is to drive man. It's like a big suburban, they track so darn well its damn near impossible to get off the road. Curbs and round abouts are a bitch tho, your right there. Makes one hell of a bump to hit a curb in a bus too. As far as the snow goes the are actually realy good bc of the weight of the bus. But once stuck.... there is a tow bill for sure. I have chains bc fuck getting stuck. I have been stuck in snow and mud. The snow wasent bad bc I just had to dig. The mud was a bitch bc everywhere was muddy and the rig getting me out was slipping. 
There is a ski hill here in my home town that has changed hands I think 5 times in ten years bc it's hard to manage and the weather here is not consistently bad lol. In the last 50 years are winters have actually gotten really mild so sometimes we don't even get snow at all but other times we get six or eight feet.


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## WyldLyfe

Oh Ok. Yeah theres some places it snows here at certain times of the year. Really? you wanna come here? cool, well theres plenty of places that don't actually snow. Iv been up an down the east coast of Australia, not so much Sydney (NSW) though but Victoria and Queensland yeah. Also been to Thailand but thats a bit of a different environment and another story. Don't know which part you'd like to explore, an I don't know everything about everywhere, iv not been all over Australia its quiet massive. Queensland (QLD) is warmer though, an tropical, went travelling there maybe a year an half ago, but been there before as well, anyway went through a place called Noosa then out into a rain forest there, wildlife is awesome, colourful butterflies, big lizards, wild turkeys, kangaroos (there kinda all over anyway though, theres different species in different areas) green tree frogs... it goes on. We found a community there they were kinda hippies an had a cool set up, cargo containers turned into houses, even a bus! (like you) and some big hall, living off the land, permaculture type stuff.

Victoria has more normal type weather overall, it fluctuates. But lots of forests, wood lands an open spaces. One thing I like also is yeah we have the main cities, Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane ect.. then the suburbs around them, But then from out wards on its mostly vast wilderness with country towns here an there, theres so many places to explore and find. Theres also abandoned houses and factories or old farms scattered around some places in the country side too.


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## RoadFlower33

That all sounds pretty amazing to me man. I've been wanting to go Australia side a long time. But I hav a lot of money to make first though. back child saport takes your passport here. I have never wanted to explore one part more than the other so i never looked into areas directly. I'm more about the countryside and work out yonder yeah! So I looked into the lifestyle and work and nature and seasons and shit. Life got me drugged down pretty well for a while I'm kind of stuck in the states for a minute now . Is it legal to hitchhike there? I know Queensland and Victoria are illegal. Are you able to hop the fraight?


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## WyldLyfe

BirdDaddy my replies a bit late cause iv been quiet busy an things, ok alright, yeah having a bit of money would help no doubt. When it comes to hitch hiking I didn't even know it was illegal, how does the state tell a person who is allowed in there car or not? wtf?, iv picked up hitch hikers before and things. Last time I done it me an friends went exploring some forest areas for places to camp out, but on our way back to the automobile we were talking and went past a path we were meant to take, an just like that we got lost in the middle of nowhere in this forest, there phones also had no signal an we couldn't look up google maps or anything. So we ended up guessing the way back, Iv got a pritty good sense of direction but all we had was a bag of half eaten grapes an it was getting hot. After a while of walking we came out onto some random road and tried to hitch hike, no one picked us up that time, they just drove past, we didn't try for too long though, eventually someone prob would have. But because we had reached a road now, phones showed us the maps and we got back to the car. But its good not to get distracted if your travelling in places like that, that your unfamiliar with. So as to hitch hiking, people still do it here an there, yes.

With the freight trains, some have done it, it doesn't seem to be as popular here as it may be for you guys in america, from Melbourne near southern cross station theres the Dynon freight yard, theres a wired fence, theres security patrol at night, an cameras, and all the boxcars are locked. Trains from there go all over Australia iv heard. Theres another yard though not to far away from that one, Tottenham yard and theres freight trains there and the setting looks a lot more easier if you wanted to travel by those trains. One story Iv heard there was two guys, climbed up onto the top of the boxcars from Albany station (WA) and where headed for Perth in (WA) they got spotted by the driver who then pulled up an stopped it, then they got caught, they didn't have water and had been drinking alcohol they were a bit of a mess apparently. Yea people travel that way Iv even read a post on here, this website about someone doing it, even across the desert but if anyone wants to do that they should go prepared, the desert is real hot at day an cold at night, an the train might not stop for a while, get water do your research, im not advising it, especially if people don't know what the fuck they are actually doing.

As for the other trains theres metro an V-line, when travelling on metro we have a system called myki so you have a card thing, an you put money on it, an its like your ticket, but you can just walk on the trains without it an get a free ride, however if the ticket inspectors come by an you don't have your myki they will try give you a fine, people general dislike these guys they have been known to beat people up even teenage girls, iv ran from them a few times in the past, one time they did let me off just cause I kinda wasn't answering there questions, and didn't react when they said we'd have to get off the next stop for police to come, they were then like just pay next time and left me alone.. Then theres the V-line trains which go further out across the country side. Theres always a ticket inspector on there but normally its only one not a group like the metro trains, these ones are not known to try fight people, an seem chill, like you can get on with $10 an stay on much longer then you would be allowed with $10 but they don't say anything really once they see you have $ on your myki they are ok with letting you ride the train, they don't ask you where your getting off so if you have enough money on your myki card for a short trip but stay on longer its not an issue, in my experience.


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## WyldLyfe

Nvm corrected last post.


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## Dutch

I'm on my second mini van. Not ideal. Not even as cool as a full size van as far as comfort goes.. 

But my thing is stealth. A dodge caravan might as well be invisible. Can park anywhere and look like a fuckin soccer mom.


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## SneakyWeasel

I live in an '85 Grumman step-van I converted. It has a 14' box and is pretty skookum. It's SUPER easy to work on (one of the bonuses of being designed for commercial use) and I could remove the tranny without leaving the vehicle by unbolting the floor! Flat glass makes replacement a breeze, any window shop that sells safety glass can do it, and it's extremely roomy. I get between 7-8 mpg, but that's mostly because it runs on propane (doesn't have high compression heads/pistons to make up for the power loss), I've got a ton of weighty shit, and it has a TH400 tranny. It would be nice if it had a 4-5 speed manual in it, but wishes and fishes.
One thing I'm contemplating doing is swapping in a Detroit Tru-trac differential in the rear; 4 m&s tires hooking up in the rear would give unreal traction!

edit: I forgot to add that it's pretty stealthy, looking like a general contractor's vehicle.


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## WyldLyfe

Yesterday met some guy living outta this, it was like a trailer but a house, very unique and original but gets peoples attention, had a bed and shelf's inside, wool on inside of roof, he was a nice fella said he been rubber tramping for four years now.


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