# My thoughts on A- Political beliefs



## Ajax

So my personal thoughts on people who don't like politics or don't like getting involved in thier communities is they are highly privileged, there are people dying every day in the Capitalist state we live in due to dying in the cold or dying due to the lack of food. In this world, it's not About politics it's about life and death. If no one stood up to police brutality then the police would keep killing and abusing, if no one stood up for the earth, the fracking would keep happening. I'm only 19 but politics are very important in my life and play a huge role. I think if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. 

Please let me what you think. I love hearing feedback


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## Zaphod

For most "apolitical" people I meet, I think that's true. However, I think that this kind of attitude can effect other groups as well. If you're too busy trying to survive capitalism to learn about or pay attention to politics, or even certain anarchists who define being apolitical as just not participating in the state. 

Point being, yeah, a lot of these people are shitty dudebros you probably don't have any affinity with, but many of them are people you can work with or at least count on when you're building community and resistance.


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## Soulutions

A lot of people don't like the political system, even if they don't intellectually participate, I'm sure most people would love to keep and distribute all of the fruits of their labor as they see fit. Or better yet, not fund the endless wars and the supplying of radical groups with murder their universal tool to effect change.
Blah blah blah blah
Your almost wasting your breath if you're not talking about solutions.
What identity trap do you fall into anyhow? You talk alot about anarchism, but there's also a communist flag in the background of your photo.


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## Ajax

Zaphod said:


> For most "apolitical" people I meet, I think that's true. However, I think that this kind of attitude can effect other groups as well. If you're too busy trying to survive capitalism to learn about or pay attention to politics, or even certain anarchists who define being apolitical as just not participating in the state.
> 
> Point being, yeah, a lot of these people are shitty dudebros you probably don't have any affinity with, but many of them are people you can work with or at least count on when you're building community and resistance.


I don't mean voting and left and right wing I mean that they don't particularly participate in the active resistance against the system that is killing innocent people each day, I think until we are ready to have revolution we should separate ourselves from society and basically get ourselves ready for the revolution through squatting or something in that context.


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## Ajax

Soulutions said:


> A lot of people don't like the political system, even if they don't intellectually participate, I'm sure most people would love to keep and distribute all of the fruits of their labor as they see fit. Or better yet, not fund the endless wars and the supplying of radical groups with murder their universal tool to effect change.
> Blah blah blah blah
> Your almost wasting your breath if you're not talking about solutions.
> What identity trap do you fall into anyhow? You talk alot about anarchism, but there's also a communist flag in the background of your photo.


I'm Anarcho communist. I believe that we should unite as far leftists to fight against Fascism and the system. I believe that after revolution, we should use non authoritarian communism temporarily to teach the people and basically yse communism as a gateway to Anarchism. Because if we start off with a Anarchist world it will fail miserably. 

PS, that pic is old as hell. That's when I was only into communism, just too lazy to take another picture and post it.


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## Skit

To quote a popular thread on STP: YOU HAVE NO GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO BE A BUM!! In many many countries on this planet the transient life is near impossible. Refusing to work can get you imprisoned or killed all over the world. No matter how low you are in American society, you still have it better than literally millions and millions of people.

Capitalism is far from perfect and I believe it has no place in pursuit of a Utopian society but Communism is not the answer. Commies have killed over 80,000,000 more people than the National Socialists did, you might excuse that fact because the Commies weren't racist, but that shit doesn't fly with people who don't suffer from cognitive dissonance.


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## Ajax

Skit said:


> To quote a popular thread on STP: YOU HAVE NO GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO BE A BUM!! In many many countries on this planet the transient life is near impossible. Refusing to work can get you imprisoned or killed all over the world. No matter how low you are in American society, you still have it better than literally millions and millions of people.
> 
> Capitalism is far from perfect and I believe it has no place in pursuit of a Utopian society but Communism is not the answer. Commies have killed over 80,000,000 more people than the National Socialists did, you might excuse that fact because the Commies weren't racist, but that shit doesn't fly with people who don't suffer from cognitive dissonance.


Never said I was a communist. I'm anarcho communist, meaning i believe in non authoritarian communism short term to use as a gateway to Anarchism. Communism hasn't killed as many people as capitalism has because very few "communist" countries exist anymore. You have north Korea but they were again fake communism. I've already stated ny views in tankies and authoritarian communists. I'm not defending any tankie, authoritarian communist, dictatorship, whatever it may be. If Marxists are willing to find alongside with Anarchists then let it be. 

As for the working thing, of all the sites to find that trash on it wouldn't have believed it would have came from stp. There is a difference between working and working in society. Whoever made that post has no idea what they are talking about clearly, sounds alot like bootlicking to me. I love to work, I love to be busy. Growing food, building things, doing art, cleaning, etc is work that is needed. In today's society when you work, your put down and treated like dog shit.


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## Skit

Yet you're too lazy to take a new picture of yourself without a flag that supposedly does not represent your beliefs? How convenient as well to just say that any country that doesn't give Communism a good name is "fake Communism" - whatever the hell that means. 

Who's boot was the author of that quote supposedly licking anyway? That was a thread about people like you who think that world owes you something just because you're alive and who end up giving travelers a bad name. You've got some growing up to do and that's okay. Just don't be so damn arrogant and have some respect for the people on here who aren't completely thrilled to have some random teenager lecturing them about how the world works.


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## Ajax

Skit said:


> Yet you're too lazy to take a new picture of yourself without a flag that supposedly does not represent your beliefs? How convenient as well to just say that any country that doesn't give Communism a good name is "fake Communism" - whatever the hell that means.
> 
> Who's boot was the author of that quote supposedly licking anyway? That was a thread about people like you who think that world owes you something just because you're alive and who end up giving travelers a bad name. You've got some growing up to do and that's okay. Just don't be so damn arrogant and have some respect for the people on here who aren't completely thrilled to have some random teenager lecturing them about how the world works.


Lol this whole site is about supposedly as you say people who think the world owes them, your growing your own food for fucks sake. You sound like some uneducated yuppie twat who is one phone call away to a free room in daddy's house. Yoir White privilege is showing btw. Of course the world owes us, there's enough resources to feed and house everyone on this entire planet but instead we use paper and metal to determine who gets what. Your attitude is extremely albiest and very problematic.


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## Ajax

Another thing what dies me not wanting to change my picture have to do with my ideology? That's a pretty pathetic come back


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## Soulutions

Skit: 
Well not talking about the world won't fix it either. 
And he's right about the 20th century communist, although I don't know about the exact figure.

But, its stupid to go down that road because you'll miss the point, same with the death toll on the capitalists. Even though I'm in a bout of intellectual war between capitalism vs communism, it's evident that capitalism definitely raised the standard of living way more than any other system. That isn't to say though, that I believe it's sustainable. I really hate the left/right paradigm, because whichever side, you or someone you know subscribes to, it invariably comes with preconceptions about whomever's stance or ideas. 
Ajax:
Fascism was a term coined and implemented first by the so called "left." A man named Giovanni gentile
What I really think the lesson is, is that you cannot choose to go against natural law and get away with it. I believe all authoritarianism is wrong.
I myself am considering a communal anarchist stance, but am always prepared to admit that I am wrong, if that's the case


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## Ajax

Soulutions said:


> Skit:
> Well not talking about the world won't fix it either.
> And he's right about the 20th century communist, although I don't know about the exact figure.
> 
> But, its stupid to go down that road because you'll miss the point, same with the death toll on the capitalists. Even though I'm in a bout of intellectual war between capitalism vs communism, it's evident that capitalism definitely raised the standard of living way more than any other system. That isn't to say though, that I believe it's sustainable. I really hate the left/right paradigm, because whichever side, you or someone you know subscribes to, it invariably comes with preconceptions about whomever's stance or ideas.
> Ajax:
> Fascism was a term coined and implemented first by the so called "left." A man named Giovanni gentile
> What I really think the lesson is, is that you cannot choose to go against natural law and get away with it. I believe all authoritarianism is wrong.
> I myself am considering a communal anarchist stance, but am always prepared to admit that I am wrong, if that's the case


I haven't had a problem with you yet, you respectfully disagree with me when what I say doesn't take to you. So far, I disagree with you about right vs left. Many people think Anarchism isn't left but it is..it's far left. Anyone who hates bigotry and wants to actually do something about it besides sitting around in a squat complaining is far left or has far left leaning ideologies. Another thing im confused about is activism and squatting goes hand in hand. I've never met a squatter, traveler that didn't have left leaning ideologies like abolishment of capitalism or something in that nature. Many squatters I've ran into are active political activists that are squatting for political reasons wether it be a rent strike or to ditch a capitalist system. I don't understand where the guys like skit come from.


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## Soulutions

How would you define anarcho communism Ajax?


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## Ajax

Anarcho communism is different for each person you ask. For me, I call myself an Anarcho communist because I believe in some Communist (marxist) beliefs like standing up for the working class, the abolishment of capitalism, and the end of imperalism. I also believe in a Anarchist beliefs as well like no borders, no nations, no Patriotism, no government, and no bigotry. Another reason is because I advocate for left unity as long as the Communists are anti authoritarian and anti dictatorship. I can't stand Stalinists or tankies.


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## Soulutions

A book written by peter kropotkin called " mutual aid" might be a great read for you. I haven't read it myself but it's next on my list


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## Ajax

I've read that book. Peter kropotkin is one of my favorite political authors and political philosophers.


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## CaptainCassius

"Anarcho-communism" is a unicorn..

Individuals joining together and agreeing on a social contract that has values associated with communal living is still a voluntary agreement.

^^ The ability of one to enter or leave contractual agreements implies that the individual has rights.

You really can't have communism without force or power structures in play.


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## CaptainCassius

I am a capitalist through and through.
All individuals should be free to make decisions and enter contracts as they see fit. That includes banding together and forming a type of government if they please.

Obviously, in reality people can choose be really awful individuals or associations, and abuse all sorts of things, but that's really what freedom is; The ability/opportunity to make a choice. Whether "good" or "bad".

Communism doesn't have room for nonsense like individual rights or freedom.


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## Soulutions

Captain Cassius: 
Every thing you said is/was true. But I don't think I agree with you that communism absolutely needs force and that individual rights can't exist simultaneously within it. 
Obviously it doesn't work with some humans being above others, the 20th century is evident of that.
What does communism mean to you? Just so we're clear
And would you be able to imagine voluntary communism, without majority rule and coercion?


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## Zaphod

CaptainCassius said:


> "Anarcho-communism" is a unicorn..
> 
> Individuals joining together and agreeing on a social contract that has values associated with communal living is still a voluntary agreement.
> 
> ^^ The ability of one to enter or leave contractual agreements implies that the individual has rights.
> 
> You really can't have communism without force or power structures in play.





CaptainCassius said:


> I am a capitalist through and through.
> All individuals should be free to make decisions and enter contracts as they see fit. That includes banding together and forming a type of government if they please.
> 
> Obviously, in reality people can choose be really awful individuals or associations, and abuse all sorts of things, but that's really what freedom is; The ability/opportunity to make a choice. Whether "good" or "bad".
> 
> Communism doesn't have room for nonsense like individual rights or freedom.



oh hey look, a capitalist who doesn't think capitalism/THE ECONOMIC DOMINATION OF MOST OF HUMANITY is a power structure or violence LOL


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## CaptainCassius

Zaphod said:


> oh hey look, a capitalist who doesn't think capitalism/THE ECONOMIC DOMINATION OF MOST OF HUMANITY is a power structure or violence LOL



Umm I never said that. Violence and power structures are going to occur either way in either ideology. That's my point, it's going to happen. So how can you have anarchy and communism at the same time?


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## CaptainCassius

Soulutions said:


> Captain Cassius:
> Every thing you said is/was true. But I don't think I agree with you that communism absolutely needs force and that individual rights can't exist simultaneously within it.
> Obviously it doesn't work with some humans being above others, the 20th century is evident of that.
> What does communism mean to you? Just so we're clear
> And would you be able to imagine voluntary communism, without majority rule and coercion?



I just don't see it as communism if an individual is allowed to make decisions that don't benefit the "whole" like... Leaving the commune and doing.. Well whatever really, maybe the same thing he was doing there but in a community with more resources or similar.

So yes a voluntary (keyword) social contract to participate in a communal living situation I believe is totally possible to achieve albeit more difficult perhaps the larger the group, but I don't see that as utopian communism. The individual is allowed to leave that agreement even if say; it causes the others in the group to starve. Again, freedom is choice.

I fear we are flirting on the edge of philosophy and practical application though..
I hope that I addressed your question properly!


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## CaptainCassius

Anyways; one could literally write volumes concerning this crap. Just my $0.02 on the matter.

Opinions are like assholes; everyone's got one.


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## Ajax

CaptainCassius said:


> "Anarcho-communism" is a unicorn..
> 
> Individuals joining together and agreeing on a social contract that has values associated with communal living is still a voluntary agreement.
> 
> ^^ The ability of one to enter or leave contractual agreements implies that the individual has rights.
> 
> You really can't have communism without force or power structures in play.


Sounds pretty


CaptainCassius said:


> I am a capitalist through and through.
> All individuals should be free to make decisions and enter contracts as they see fit. That includes banding together and forming a type of government if they please.
> 
> Obviously, in reality people can choose be really awful individuals or associations, and abuse all sorts of things, but that's really what freedom is; The ability/opportunity to make a choice. Whether "good" or "bad".
> 
> Communism doesn't have room for nonsense like individual rights or freedom.


More like your a Racist and a Fascist I've seen what you "anarcho" capitalists do in action, you stand with the white Nationalists and neo nazis. Nothing about you is Anarchist. I can tolerate a-politicals but I Can't tolerate a Capitalist or a Racist. What you stand for is Nazis and Racists roaming the streets assaulting innocent people and bigotry. Kill the rich, hang the Racists


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## Skit

Ajax said:


> Lol this whole site is about supposedly as you say people who think the world owes them





Ajax said:


> Of course the world owes us



Side note: Can we just have this kid banned? I've never seen so many negative, stupid, and dislike votes my entire time on this site as I have on threads started by this person.


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## Skit

Don't bother replying, Cap. This 19 year old has the world figured out and we all better listen or else he might call us a racist, fascist. I haven't cringed this hard at an edgelord in a while.


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## CaptainCassius

@Ajax 
You can call me whatever you like, in spite of any evidence or logic.

Literally. Any. Evidence.

You're about as narrow-minded as they come and clearly an ignorant sheep. Alas! There is hope for you! 

Empty your cup.

Travel. Learn. And see reality for a change.
It can be very humbling.


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## Ajax

Skit said:


> Don't bother replying, Cap. This 19 year old has the world figured out and we all better listen or else he might call us a racist, fascist. I haven't cringed this hard at an edgelord in a while.


You've been saying the most mind blown ignorant bullshit I've heard in awhile along with the cringey larping capitalist. Skit, your probably some rich yuppie traveling on mommy and daddy money, Everyone knows if your not left leaning and your into squatter type of activities wether it be train hopping or squatting your gonna run into far leftist ideologies in the lifestyle. I've literally never met a squatter, traveler, crusty, whatever they may be that wasn't some what Anarchist or left leaning. I understand if your privileged and don't wanna get involved but to be a outright piece of shit and knock the ones who do actually stand for something instead of wasting thier life away doing absolutely nothing. 

As for the larping capitalist, your probably the same way...a rich mommy's boy, basement dweller who knows literally nothing about politics only to scratch at the ones who do and are far more experienced in it.. basically trolling. Capitalism is Fascism and Racism because it's systematic oppression towards certain races like black people or Mexicans. It keeps the blacks in the ghettos and Mexicans in the grapevines while the white people stay rich and Dominanting the system. Have you noticed how many POC are wealthy or are in government work? Very very few. Capitalism is also sexist because the wage gap and when women get pregnant they are forced to work through the pregnancy to a certain point. Any smart, educated person would see this.


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## Ajax

Skit said:


> Side note: Can we just have this kid banned? I've never seen so many negative, stupid, and dislike votes my entire time on this site as I have on threads started by this person.


Can we have you banned? Your the one starting arguments for literally no fucking reason but to bash someone for speaking out on thier political beliefs. If you don't like politics then why tf are you in the politics and Anarchism section?


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## CaptainCassius

Ajax said:


> bash someone for speaking out on thier political beliefs.



^^ hmmmm....


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## CaptainCassius

Ajax said:


> Please let me what you think. I love hearing feedback



^^ hmm..

I thought this was an open forum for discussion; not a safe space from genuine criticism.


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## Skit

I wasn't aware that through my rather short replies he could surmise so much about my life hahaha. Go to the ghetto or barrio and talk this shit and see if everyone meets your social justice rantings with fervent agreement. Of course you've never actually spent any time in a low-income neighborhood or done anything to help folks struggling. You just like going online and letting everyone know what a moral and centered guy you are while advocating people give up their lives and the lives of their loved ones for your completely unrealistic idea of revolution.

I have to wake up early to hit up a church-run soup kitchen in the morning to actually feed some people in need instead of whining on the internet. Go on and give me another cookie-cutter response about how churches are inherently evil though, that will solve everything.


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## Ajax

CaptainCassius said:


> ^^ hmm..
> 
> I thought this was an open forum for discussion; not a safe space for you to spout nonsense and regurgitated brainwash without criticism.


You came into the post bashing my philosophy and basically starting a argument. You see how the other guy came in the post respectfully disagreeing with me instead of telling me I'm a sheep? Ive disagreed with alot of people on this site but the only people I've clashed with is you, skit and one other guy who randomly keeps rating every po st I make stupid. If anyone in this thread is a sheep it's you. Capitalism is defended throughout all Media, even liberal media like CNN. I support anyone thinking for themselves.


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## Ajax

Skit said:


> I wasn't aware that through my rather short replies he could surmise so much about my life hahaha. Go to the ghetto or barrio and talk this shit and see if Juan and Tyrone meet your social justice rantings with fervent agreement. Of course you've never actually spent any time in a low-income neighborhood or done anything to help folks struggling. You just like going online and letting everyone know what a moral and centered guy you are while advocating people give up their lives and the lives of their loved ones for your completely unrealistic idea of revolution.
> 
> I have to wake up early to hit up a church-run soup kitchen in the morning to actually feed some people in need instead of whining on the internet. Go on and give me another cookie-cutter response about how churches are inherently evil though, that will solve everything.


Actually, Im gonna stop you right there..I grew up In The ghetto. Downtown Louisville, Shawnee to be exact. I grew up dodging bullets and seeing drive-bys..but sure, I'll never see a low income neighborhood. You see how I said in the post politics is a big part of my life? Maybe it's because I grew up with nothing, people saying I couldn't do anything and wouldn't make it past 14 and I've seen capitalism shape our futures just because we were poor. I grew up heavily politically involved because that what kept me alive.the politicans were gambling with my life. Skit, you have no idea what your talking about. You look like a privileged white boy who grew up in the suburbs. Don't talk politics with me until you've educated yourself


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## Ajax

Skit said:


> I wasn't aware that through my rather short replies he could surmise so much about my life hahaha. Go to the ghetto or barrio and talk this shit and see if Juan and Tyrone meet your social justice rantings with fervent agreement. Of course you've never actually spent any time in a low-income neighborhood or done anything to help folks struggling. You just like going online and letting everyone know what a moral and centered guy you are while advocating people give up their lives and the lives of their loved ones for your completely unrealistic idea of revolution.
> 
> I have to wake up early to hit up a church-run soup kitchen in the morning to actually feed some people in need instead of whining on the internet. Go on and give me another cookie-cutter response about how churches are inherently evil though, that will solve everything.


Lol ohhhh a soup kitchen. Bravo! Your saving the world Johnny! Just because you work part time at your parent's church ran soup kitchen to make yourself feel better because you've been defending a Capitalist all day doesn't mean anything. It really doesn't. 

If you really wanna get involved with the homeless then look up food not bombs. Or just go in a food store, get some food and hand it out. The soup kitchens only give out so much food per day per person. Many are still hungry when they leave, trust me. I do it all the time. Had a great conversation with a guy yesterday and he thanked me saying the soup kitchen would only hand out so much and he was still hungry, and being disabled he was always late so he was the last one to the line. You can do ALOT more than working at a church ran soup kitchen. 

As for the response of me saying I'd say churches sre Evil...my personal opinion is yes, they are.


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## CaptainCassius

Ajax said:


> You came into the post bashing my philosophy and basically starting a argument. You see how the other guy came in the post respectfully disagreeing with me instead of telling me I'm a sheep? Ive disagreed with alot of people on this site but the only people I've clashed with is you, skit and one other guy who randomly keeps rating every po st I make stupid. If anyone in this thread is a sheep it's you. Capitalism is defended throughout all Media, even liberal media like CNN. I support anyone thinking for themselves.



Ok bud,
Just to be clear; I didn't bash you or start an argument in my first post, I merely stated my opinion on the matter.

I called you a sheep after you decided to act immature and regurgitate the whole 'I'm-right-you're-wrong-and-if-you-don't-agree-with-me-you're-a-fascist-racist-bigot' rhetoric. The reason why you're receiving 'stupid' ratings is not because people are bashing your political views; it's because your posts were very poorly worded and near nonsense.

What makes you a sheep is your lack of genuine original thought and regurgitation of word vomit that makes you appear vaguely informed.

You have been quick to accuse, make assumptions about, and alienate those who don't hold the same viewpoint as you.

That makes you a narrow-minded bigot.


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## CaptainCassius

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot

^^
Just gonna leave this here..


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## Ajax

CaptainCassius said:


> Ok bud,
> Just to be clear; I didn't bash you or start an argument in my first post, I merely stated my opinion on the matter.
> 
> I called you a sheep after you decided to act immature and regurgitate the whole 'I'm-right-you're-wrong-and-if-you-don't-agree-with-me-you're-a-fascist-racist-bigot' rhetoric. The reason why you're receiving 'stupid' ratings is not because people are bashing your political views; it's because your posts were very poorly worded and near nonsense.
> 
> What makes you a sheep is your lack of genuine original thought and regurgitation of word vomit that makes you appear vaguely informed.
> 
> You have been quick to accuse, make assumptions about, and alienate those who don't hold the same viewpoint as you.
> 
> That makes you a narrow-minded bigot.


Actually you and skit started off with lame insults towards me and Its actually pretty hilarious, this whole online argument is pretty entertaining for me and my buddies, as well as bashing communism, and overall leftism. 

You called me a sheep because you ran out of insults so you ran to quick name calling that makes no sense. Since when does believing in government overthrow mean your a sheep? If anything, believing that capitalism makes the world better means your the sheep. 

I didn't accuse anyone of anything. You said your a Capitalist correct? If you look up anti communist action and see the group it has a "anarcho" capitalist flag in the logo. They have been standing with white Nationalists against antifa this whole year. You can see the gear marching in cville during the unite the right rally, you can see the flags and hats Being worn at Berkeley during the protests that turned violent. You can see them protecting Nazis when antifa is beating the dog shit outta them. Fuck Nazi sympathy. If you protect, or surround yourself with people who help nazis and other pricks and bigots..be expected to be called a Fascist or Racist. You ever heard of guilty by association?


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## Ajax

CaptainCassius said:


> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot
> 
> ^^
> Just gonna leave this here..


Doesn't matter what Merriam Webster says. Of you associate yourself with a group that aids racists and Fascists then be expected to be "accused" of being one.


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## Ajax

Spider Tempura said:


> search "anarcho communist meme" on googl img srch.
> 
> do it
> 
> theres some funny shit that shows up


Lol it's actually pretty hilarious. I've seen them before. If half the memes were true, it'd be more hilarious. Have you seen the "Anarcho" capitalism ones?


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## Hobo Mud

Vive la résistance!


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## DrewSTNY

Blathering about nothing, this is. So I'll add mine to this stinking pile.

Grow up, travel the world to some real shit holes, come back to the country of your birth and kiss the ground. You got it better than 99% of the planetary population.

Fascism in the name of nationalism might just save the world. Communism might kill it to save the remnant. Global community is a bullshit fantasy of a few who desire power.

I vote for whomever promises to leave me the fuck alone. I don't like people telling me what color shirt to wear.

I'm older than most in the site, worked my ass off my whole life. Watched US government's make catastrophic mistakes, but I'll still stay put right here. 

Everytime some egotistical bastard shows up on the stage selling his bullshit utopia, I laugh. Because utopia burned 10000 years ago, and we're all fucked anyway.


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## DrewSTNY

DrewSTNY said:


> Blathering about nothing, this is. So I'll add mine to this stinking pile.
> 
> Grow up, travel the world to some real shit holes, come back to the country of your birth and kiss the ground. You got it better than 99% of the planetary population.
> 
> Fascism in the name of nationalism might just save the world. Communism might kill it to save the remnant. Global community is a bullshit fantasy of a few who desire power.
> 
> I vote for whomever promises to leave me the fuck alone. I don't like people telling me what color shirt to wear.
> 
> I'm older than most in the site, worked my ass off my whole life. Watched US government's make catastrophic mistakes, but I'll still stay put right here.
> 
> Everytime some egotistical bastard shows up on the stage selling his bullshit utopia, I laugh. Because utopia burned 10000 years ago, and we're all fucked anyway.



I know you're not supposed to feed the trolls, but I'm a tool, plus I've been feeding the hungry for a long time.


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## Ajax

DrewSTNY said:


> Blathering about nothing, this is. So I'll add mine to this stinking pile.
> 
> Grow up, travel the world to some real shit holes, come back to the country of your birth and kiss the ground. You got it better than 99% of the planetary population.
> 
> Fascism in the name of nationalism might just save the world. Communism might kill it to save the remnant. Global community is a bullshit fantasy of a few who desire power.
> 
> I vote for whomever promises to leave me the fuck alone. I don't like people telling me what color shirt to wear.
> 
> I'm older than most in the site, worked my ass off my whole life. Watched US government's make catastrophic mistakes, but I'll still stay put right here.
> 
> Everytime some egotistical bastard shows up on the stage selling his bullshit utopia, I laugh. Because utopia burned 10000 years ago, and we're all fucked anyway.


So what your saying is you support Nationalism? When did do many right wing assholes join the culture? Jfc I remember hanging out with the crusties in 09 and them looking for neo Nazis to fight.


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## CaptainCassius

@Ajax 
Ok kid, you obviously can't read or comprehend.
I don't associate with ANY political parties, activist groups, lobbyists etc. or really give a rats ass about Neo-Nazis and Commies tearing each other to bits.

I aim to be left alone, and I don't expect the governments of the world to let me do that, and communism is stifling and requires interaction with governing bodies. I found that capitalism (discounting corporatism) gives people freedom, and the ability to do as they please.So yeah you're also an idiot if you think everyone in the traveling/alternative lifestyle community shares your views or is a communist or political leftist.

Most street kids I'll venture to say are capitalists; doesn't mean we don't break bread with each other and share.

We mostly just don't like people telling us what to do.

It's kind of like talking to a wall with you though, and your lack of knowledge and understanding is astounding.

Good luck kid.


----------



## Soulutions

CaptainCassius said:


> I just don't see it as communism if an individual is allowed to make decisions that don't benefit the "whole" like... Leaving the commune and doing.. Well whatever really, maybe the same thing he was doing there but in a community with more resources or similar.
> 
> So yes a voluntary (keyword) social contract to participate in a communal living situation I believe is totally possible to achieve albeit more difficult perhaps the larger the group, but I don't see that as utopian communism. The individual is allowed to leave that agreement even if say; it causes the others in the group to starve. Again, freedom is choice.
> 
> I fear we are flirting on the edge of philosophy and practical application though..
> I hope that I addressed your question properly!




can't say I disagree with any of your points here. im an anarchist before in ideals in community.
it might be just a language barrier in our way(in the aggregate as well) . everybody formulates for themselves the meanings of whichever word in question, and sometimes not of there own accord or evaluation.
this is why I don't like loaded words like communism, capitalism, and bigotry. you can use these terms without ever actually saying what your advocating or believe in. almost as to absolve you of personal responsibility, which is attempted all to often in our society


----------



## Ajax

CaptainCassius said:


> @Ajax
> Ok kid, you obviously can't read or comprehend.
> I don't associate with ANY political parties, activist groups, lobbyists etc. or really give a rats ass about Neo-Nazis and Commies tearing each other to bits.
> 
> I aim to be left alone, and I don't expect the governments of the world to let me do that, and communism is stifling and requires interaction with governing bodies. I found that capitalism (discounting corporatism) gives people freedom, and the ability to do as they please.So yeah you're also an idiot if you think everyone in the traveling/alternative lifestyle community shares your views or is a communist or political leftist.
> 
> Most street kids I'll venture to say are capitalists; doesn't mean we don't break bread with each other and share.
> 
> We mostly just don't like people telling us what to do.
> 
> It's kind of like talking to a wall with you though, and your lack of knowledge and understanding is astounding.
> 
> Good luck kid.


In other words, your just a selfish greedy prick who bashes the people who wanna make the world better. Seems like a Capitalist, which makes sense why your such a brainwashed douchebag. Also what I don't get is, your a Capitalist on a anti capitalist site. Matt is a leftist, the admin of this site...the creator of this site. So basically, your on a site that pretty much wants your kind dead, and what I mean by your kind, I mean Capitalists. 

Actually, most street kids are ethier non political or hard left. In fact, over NEVER in my life seen a right wing squatter and that's for a reason. You noticed how in the 60s the people would tell the hippies to get a job? Those people belonged to the right wing. The far right neo Nazis would beat up squatter punks and hippies because they were about working class culture. The right wing opposes independent, DIY culture. You will never see a Capitalist squatter because they depend on working class culture ethnics, it's goes against Capitalism to squat. Hell, half the posts about making money on this site has to do with stealing, ripping off Capitalist stores, etc..lol it's literally impossible to be a right winger or a Capitalist and be a squatter or Street kid. 

On a side note, Capitalism is falling. The American dream is burning, young adults are turning communist. It's just a matter of time before something else takes it's Place


----------



## MolotovMocktail

OK so everyone needs to chill out a little bit here. While political discussions are welcome on StP, personal attacks and flame wars are not.

@Ajax, you've been here less than a week and have already given out 23 "stupid" ratings (comparatively, I've been here four years and have given out 9). Those ratings are for things that are legitimately stupid, not just things you disagree with. There's a "disagree" button for that. Abusing the rating system is against the rules and if you continue to do so we will issue a point warning.

Also, maybe reconsider how you approach these topics because antagonizing people won't lead to a productive discussion. I suggest you grow some thicker skin and be a bit nicer.


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## Ajax

CaptainCassius said:


> @Ajax
> Ok kid, you obviously can't read or comprehend.
> I don't associate with ANY political parties, activist groups, lobbyists etc. or really give a rats ass about Neo-Nazis and Commies tearing each other to bits.
> 
> I aim to be left alone, and I don't expect the governments of the world to let me do that, and communism is stifling and requires interaction with governing bodies. I found that capitalism (discounting corporatism) gives people freedom, and the ability to do as they please.So yeah you're also an idiot if you think everyone in the traveling/alternative lifestyle community shares your views or is a communist or political leftist.
> 
> Most street kids I'll venture to say are capitalists; doesn't mean we don't break bread with each other and share.
> 
> We mostly just don't like people telling us what to do.
> 
> It's kind of like talking to a wall with you though, and your lack of knowledge and understanding is astounding.
> 
> Good luck kid.


Doesn't like people telling him what to do, supports a system that tells him what to do. LOL the bright ideas by a Capitalist


----------



## Ajax

MolotovMocktail said:


> OK so everyone needs to chill out a little bit here. While political discussions are welcome on StP, personal attacks and flame wars are not.
> 
> @Ajax, you've been here less than a week and have already given out 23 "stupid" ratings (comparatively, I've been here four years and have given out 9). Those ratings are for things that are legitimately stupid, not just things you disagree with. There's a "disagree" button for that. Abusing the rating system is against the rules and if you continue to do so we will issue a point warning.
> 
> Also, maybe reconsider how you approach these topics because antagonizing people won't lead to a productive discussion. I suggest you grow some thicker skin and be a bit nicer.


That's not me giving out random dislikes, that's skit and his friends disliking random things I say just cause I guess it's funny to them idk. Skit is doing it to me banned. They got butthurt over my political standpoints. 

I agree that I should chill out with the political posts, apparently since stormfront got shut down they flocked to stp. I never knew the right liked squatter culture..you learn something new every day


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## MolotovMocktail

Ajax said:


> That's not me giving out random dislikes, that's skit and his friends disliking random things I say just cause I guess it's funny to them idk. Skit is doing it to me banned. They got butthurt over my political standpoints.



Wrong. You have issued 23 stupid ratings and received 26. It says so right on your profile. I don't think you're receiving those ratings because people have a vendetta against you and think it's "funny" as you say, it's because you're attacking them while they're trying to respond to your thread in a way that, for the most part, has been significantly calmer and less antagonistic than your replies.

Now, on to this, which you posted seconds before I posted my warning:



Ajax said:


> In other words, your just a selfish greedy prick who bashes the people who wanna make the world better. Seems like a Capitalist, which makes sense why your such a brainwashed douchebag. I agree that I should chill out with the political posts, apparently since stormfront got shut down they flocked to stp. I never knew the right liked squatter culture..you learn something new every day



This is not OK. Like I said, we welcome political discussion here. What we do not tolerate is flaming and personal attacks. It serves no productive purpose and only serves to make the StP community feel unwelcoming to others. 

Additionally, it is _absolutely absurd_ to compare us to Stormfront just because there are a few people here who disagree with your political beliefs and don't take kindly to being attacked. That doesn't make them Nazis, that makes them human.

I am issuing a one-point warning for flaming and I suggest that you take a deep breath before posting replies in the future.


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## Ajax

MolotovMocktail said:


> Wrong. You have issued 23 stupid ratings and received 26. It says so right on your profile. I don't think you're receiving those ratings because people have a vendetta against you and think it's "funny" as you say, it's because you're attacking them while they're trying to respond to your thread in a way that, for the most part, has been significantly calmer and less antagonistic than your replies.
> 
> Now, on to this, which you posted seconds before I posted my warning:
> 
> 
> 
> This is not OK. Like I said, we welcome political discussion here. What we do not tolerate is flaming and personal attacks. It serves no productive purpose and only serves to make the StP community feel unwelcoming to others.
> 
> Additionally, it is _absolutely absurd_ to compare us to Stormfront just because there are a few people here who disagree with your political beliefs and don't take kindly to being attacked. That doesn't make them Nazis, that makes them human.
> 
> I am issuing a one-point warning for flaming and I suggest that you take a deep breath before posting replies in the future.


LOL go for it.


----------



## Deleted member 125

Ajax said:


> LOL go for it.



people disagreeing with you isnt a reason for them to be banned. flaming people who disagree with you is. it seems like you started a political discussion and are now mad that not everyone agrees with you. grow up.

@MolotovMocktail beat me to it but you might want to consider that even though this is a website where most users lean more left people are going to have their own opinions and saying that people came here due to a nazi message board being shut down is just stupid.

nice occupation by the way, although i was under a different impression because yer previous posts say that you had never traveled before.


----------



## Ajax

SlankyLanky said:


> people disagreeing with you isnt a reason for them to be banned. flaming people who disagree with you is. it seems like you started a political discussion and are now mad that not everyone agrees with you. grow up.
> 
> @MolotovMocktail beat me to it but you might want to consider that even though this is a website where most users lean more left people are going to have their own opinions and saying that people came here due to a nazi message board being shut down is just stupid.
> 
> nice occupation by the way, although i was under a different impression because yer previous posts say that you had never traveled before.


Actually I'm not even mad lol. Like a warning mark is gonna piss me off lmao. Wouldn't give a shit if I got banned, my life doesn't depend on a website that apparently allows Fascists on it which is the reason I'm deleting my account anyway. I advise anyone left to do the same. I actually recommended it to lots of different friends but I'll make sure to tell them they allow Capitalists and other far right extremists on. 

I said I've never been a homeless traveler, never said I've never traveled in my entire life. There's a difference between traveling with money and staying in hotels then doing it broke and out in nature or out on the streets.


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## Deleted member 125

Ajax said:


> Actually I'm not even mad lol. Like a warning mark is gonna piss me off lmao. Wouldn't give a shit if I got banned, my life doesn't depend on a website that apparently allows Fascists on it which is the reason I'm deleting my account anyway. I advise anyone left to do the same. I actually recommended it to lots of different friends but I'll make sure to tell them they allow Capitalists and other far right extremists on.
> 
> I said I've never been a homeless traveler, never said I've never traveled in my entire life. There's a difference between traveling with money and staying in hotels then doing it broke and out in nature or out on the streets.



take it easy.


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## Ajax

SlankyLanky said:


> take it easy.


You to


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## DrewSTNY

This site allows humans to interact with each other. I may not agree with the political views of most on this site, but most people here are cool as fuck and have awesome conversations and debates without bashing each other over the head. Like everyone has said before, "grow the fuck up dude." I travel, I spend my own, hard earned money to do it. I've traveled the globe and don't need a snot nose kid who's barely out off puberty yelling at my because I don't fit his ill conceived mold of politics.

Most people here, left, right, and center embrace anarchy because governments tend to fuck everything they touch up. You can take you authoritarian communism and shove it up your ass. You can bet that I will fight that shit storm with my dying breath as I rip it's guts out with my bare hands.


----------



## Ajax

Timm said:


> I dont like politics cause the way i see it its all bullshit. Here in australia its compulsory to vote if you are 18+ otherwise you get a "fine" i turn up, register that i was indeed there and leave without voting. I dont want some faceless buracrat deciding how much i will be taxed and what my taxes will be spent on. 9 times out of ten it will be wasted anyway on stupid shit. With that being said I'd rather keep all of my money that i earn and spend it myself. I dont want some government, doesnt matter left or right, communist, capitalist, liberal, conservative, greens telling me what to do. I just want to be left alone and free. Saying that someone is "highly priveledged" because they choose not to get involved in politics? What the fuck is with that? People die everyday in this capitalist state? I got news for you kiddo. People die everyday the world over regardless of what government or lack of government is in/not in place. I marked your posts stupid (as well as alot of other people by the looks of it) because they are indeed stupid. STP isnt gonna miss you if you delete your profile so by all means, leave.


It's highly privileged behavior because poiltics determines whos gonna live and who's gonna die. I ONLY associate myself around left leaning people because anything Else means they ether don't care of I die or they want me to die..


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## Ajax

DrewSTNY said:


> This site allows humans to interact with each other. I may not agree with the political views of most on this site, but most people here are cool as fuck and have awesome conversations and debates without bashing each other over the head. Like everyone has said before, "grow the fuck up dude." I travel, I spend my own, hard earned money to do it. I've traveled the globe and don't need a snot nose kid who's barely out off puberty yelling at my because I don't fit his ill conceived mold of politics.
> 
> Most people here, left, right, and center embrace anarchy because governments tend to fuck everything they touch up. You can take you authoritarian communism and shove it up your ass. You can bet that I will fight that shit storm with my dying breath as I rip it's guts out with my bare hands.


Didn't I just say I don't agree with authoritarian communism? Jfc open up your eyes and read


----------



## DrewSTNY

Ajax said:


> It's highly privileged behavior because poiltics determines whos gonna live and who's gonna die. I ONLY associate myself around left leaning people because anything Else means they ether don't care of I die or they want me to die..


Here's a clue. Most people don't know or give a shit who lives and dies.

China has a billion slaves to labor in the sweat shops and people in the US bitch that Walmart is too expensive and exploits people, but they won't do fuck all to support union based manufacturing because they "can't afford it."

I don't care who you associate with.

Again I feed the hungry trolls. Will I ever learn???

Matt shoot me now!!!


----------



## DrewSTNY

Ajax said:


> I'm Anarcho communist. I believe that we should unite as far leftists to fight against Fascism and the system. I believe that after revolution, we should use non authoritarian communism temporarily to teach the people and basically yse communism as a gateway to Anarchism. Because if we start off with a Anarchist world it will fail miserably.
> 
> PS, that pic is old as hell. That's when I was only into communism, just too lazy to take another picture and post it.




Ok, so you said non authoritarian communism. Does that mean the population can tell the communists to "fuck off" without getting re-educated??

Look at history, communism, socialism, fascism have all been tried and are used to beat down the masses. I say fuck all that noise because I highly doubt that there is such a thing as non-authoritarianism. Someone always wants to be in charge.


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## Deleted member 125

Timm said:


> [USERGROUP=3]@Administrative[/USERGROUP] you want to look into this? Cheers and Merry Christmas



its being looked into, i doubt itll be very long before its resolved.


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## Hobo Mud

I don't always get political but when I do, I drink Dos Equis "Stay thirsty, my friends."


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## Matt Derrick

While I personally abhor capitalism and StP frowns upon just about anything right wing, I think it's important to have a civil discourse with those who have different ideologies than yourself. Believe it or not, it is possible to get through to such people, but that will never happen by insulting people on the internet. This is why we have the anti-flaming rules here on StP.

Remember, you can disagree, but you can't resort to name calling. Once you do, they automatically win. I think you'll find this to be true both online and in real life.


----------



## Deleted member 125

Ajax said:


> Actually I'm not even mad lol. Like a warning mark is gonna piss me off lmao. Wouldn't give a shit if I got banned, my life doesn't depend on a website that apparently allows Fascists on it which is the reason I'm deleting my account anyway. I advise anyone left to do the same. I actually recommended it to lots of different friends but I'll make sure to tell them they allow Capitalists and other far right extremists on.
> 
> I said I've never been a homeless traveler, never said I've never traveled in my entire life. There's a difference between traveling with money and staying in hotels then doing it broke and out in nature or out on the streets.



well yea it kinda sounded like you were mad because you ya know...took the time to pm somebody about it.

stp doesnt tolerate fascists on it. what it does its allow people who arnt completely arrogant and full of bullshit to offer a different opinion then somebody else. ide eat my hat if the site had any users who ide call fascists hanging around. youv proved more then once that you are not only ignorant but also want this community to serve you while contributing nothing, and even worse you have no humility about yer lack of experience in the lifestyle you seemed to be interested in. 

yer posts where people challenge yer beliefs and give you opportunity to debate pretty much prove that you are a brat.


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## DrewSTNY

SlankyLanky said:


> well yea it kinda sounded like you were mad because you ya know...took the time to pm somebody about it.
> 
> stp doesnt tolerate fascists on it. what it does its allow people who arnt completely arrogant and full of bullshit to offer a different opinion then somebody else. ide eat my hat if the site had any users who ide call fascists hanging around. youv proved more then once that you are not only ignorant but also want this community to serve you while contributing nothing, and even worse you have no humility about yer lack of experience in the lifestyle you seemed to be interested in.
> 
> yer posts where people challenge yer beliefs and give you opportunity to debate pretty much prove that you are a brat.


Will you send pics if I tell you I'm a baby eating fascist bastard??


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## Weminuche

I got questions for everyone who makes the blanket statement "I don't like capitalism." I know it can be extremely exploitative if used in an immoral way. But what about the positive aspects of it? Can't any system be abused if immoral people are in power?
I met and briefly worked with two young dudes from Al Salvador and Guatemala. They left their homes to come here to work and make money. They actually traveled across national borders to live in a capitalistic society and wake up early as fuck every morning to practice capitalism. I didn't hear them complain once.
What about the refugees who come here from war torn places. They realize that they are in a place where they can freely practice capitalism. They get jobs as uber drivers and at the airport (from what I've seen in my city). They wake up every morning and work their asses off to make a decent wage to support their families. Yeah it's hard but it's sure as hell better than what some of them were going through in their home countries. Do you guys think they hate capitalism?
There's this moving company in Denver that is one of the largest in the state. It's family-owned and the dude who runs it inherited it from his mom. He's filthy rich and his office is full of all the shit rich people think is cool. He buys old friggin humvees just for fun. Steriotypical capitalist right? But his business allows people like some of my friends to make money to support their families. He personally collected gym equipment in his office so his workers could workout for free. My friend who works there seems to like working for the guy cause he's cool to his employees.
I feel like this thread was mostly ugly shit that I don't want to get into. But it bothers me when people automatically make the jump from capitalist to racist/fascist. I personally prefer to work for the things that I have. Does that make me a capitalist? Maybe. Does that make me a racist/fascist tho? If so I'd much appreciate some explanation as to how. Thanks.


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## CaptainCassius

Ajax said:


> Doesn't like people telling him what to do, supports a system that tells him what to do. LOL the bright ideas by a Capitalist



I want to address this because I am not a statist. I accept that people should be allowed to form states or whatever associations they wish.

However; just because I support economic capitalism and a free market doesn't mean I support governments or associations telling me what I can or can't do without being part of that VOLUNTARY contract. State intervention in people's lives and economic policy, I believe, does more harm than good in most cases, and is a hindrance on growth and progress.

I am aware that in capitalism people essentially vote with their money, and as such those with more money and resources have more 'say' than those who may be disenfranchised or working for a wage.

Still

I believe it 'realistically' levels the playing field by ALLOWING opportunity for advancement.

For example starting your own business or providing a service for profit.

The whole you can't be a squatter and be a capitalist I don't believe to be true. Just because capitalism recognizes property rights doesn't mean that anyone is actually obligated to follow the laws set in place to protect those rights. Sure there may be consequences for that within a state or community but nonetheless it's all dependant on if those can be effectively affected on you.

Not to mention there are squatters rights. Reminds me of John Locke, with his requirement for 'owning' land being that one must 'mix his toil with the land'.

Liberalism on the broader spectrum is really quite 'left' especially when compared to feudalism and other political systems that have been in place. In the US I understand that those beliefs are more center-right probably.

Much more to be said and discussed I'm sure regarding practical application and philosophy; as I said, you could write volumes..

Again just my opinion.

@Matt Derrick 
I'm sure has some very compelling points and arguments against capitalism that I am very much interested in hearing. Discussion of opposing viewpoints is very healthy and important, especially in democratic society.

Any links to your favorite threads on this topic would be appreciated.

Thanks


----------



## Weminuche

@CaptainCassius 
"...effectively affected on you."

well done haha.


----------



## DrewSTNY

CaptainCassius said:


> I want to address this because I am not a statist. I accept that people should be allowed to form states or whatever associations they wish.
> 
> However; just because I support economic capitalism and a free market doesn't mean I support governments or associations telling me what I can or can't do without being part of that VOLUNTARY contract. State intervention in people's lives and economic policy, I believe, does more harm than good in most cases, and is a hindrance on growth and progress.
> 
> I am aware that in capitalism people essentially vote with their money, and as such those with more money and resources have more 'say' than those who may be disenfranchised or working for a wage.
> 
> Still
> 
> I believe it 'realistically' levels the playing field by ALLOWING opportunity for advancement.
> 
> For example starting your own business or providing a service for profit.
> 
> The whole you can't be a squatter and be a capitalist I don't believe to be true. Just because capitalism recognizes property rights doesn't mean that anyone is actually obligated to follow the laws set in place to protect those rights. Sure there may be consequences for that within a state or community but nonetheless it's all dependant on if those can be effectively affected on you.
> 
> Not to mention there are squatters rights. Reminds me of John Locke, with his requirement for 'owning' land being that one must 'mix his toil with the land'.
> 
> Liberalism on the broader spectrum is really quite 'left' especially when compared to feudalism and other political systems that have been in place. In the US I understand that those beliefs are more center-right probably.
> 
> Much more to be said and discussed I'm sure regarding practical application and philosophy; as I said, you could write volumes..
> 
> Again just my opinion.
> 
> @Matt Derrick
> I'm sure has some very compelling points and arguments against capitalism that I am very much interested in hearing. Discussion of opposing viewpoints is very healthy and important, especially in democratic society.
> 
> Any links to your favorite threads on this topic would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks


I heard a good one the other day -

Both sides want money, the right gets it through selling things, the left gets it through donations and fund raising.

In recent decades, the US has followed classical liberalism in general. In 2008, many academics considered this form of government's economics collapsed, when in reality, it was just another bubble bursting. The current economic bubble appears to be crypto currency speculation. I think this crash will destroy nations, but it's too early to tell.

Imperfect as it is, any system that affords anyone the opportunity to freely decide their future is better then the dismal oppression that has been the norm for most of human history. This has been some form of capitalism, even if it's governmental. Just look at China and how successful it has been in the last 20 years. They have state capitalism which doesn't benefit the individual, but the net affect is more people's standard of living in that country has been raised significantly.

Matt may not agree with me, but even he is participating in capitalism with the sale of his book on Amazon.

I live in one of the most oppressive states in the country, yet, I can mostly ignore it. Unless they arrest me for growing food in my front yard, then it's war.


----------



## dumpster harpy

I also have a question for everyone "opposed to capitalism."

Can you define capitalism?

Or have you been mislead to confuse it with corporatism?


----------



## Soulutions

This is a few of the beefs I have with capitalism as of now.
1. Endless, literally, endless resource mining. The consumer culture( out with the old and in with the new, compulsively ) is undoubtedly what funds this economic system. This will occasionally lead to the u.s. military "Spreading Democracy and Freedom" in countries we have no business in, other than plunder. Africa for example. I know I can't say consumer culture is exclusive to capitalism but it is the most important cog, I'd say.
2. land owner ship and Usery 
Land ownership, and why it's unreasonable, can get kinda dragged out. So, I'll give a summery unless someone wants the long version.
A landowner collects rent, every month, because he claims the Right to take your money for living on that particular piece of land. And what does this money represent? Nothing, neither labor done or risk taken. And if you want to say, "well he(land owner) is taking a risk by letting the renter stay on that land or in that house." If so then why isn't it the other way around? If the renter is a good Stewart of the land ( or house) and keeps the natural course of entropy or decay at Bay, then why wouldn't the land owner compensate them for keeping it in good shape rather than them having to do it for themselves


----------



## Soulutions

malaclypse said:


> I also have a question for everyone "opposed to capitalism."
> 
> Can you define capitalism?
> 
> Or have you been mislead to confuse it with corporatism?


Without resorting to Google, my honest interpretation, which is only rudimentary, admittedly, would be so:
An economic system in which private citizen garnish the right to own land( private land ownership ) and have access to a free market (hypothetically. It's as fleeting as that socialist Utopia), wherein they can freely(again, hypothetically) do there business


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## dumpster harpy

Capitalism is the use of capital in exchange for goods or services. It's not a system or an ideology.

You are talking about Corporatism. The powers that be are very fond of twisting and abusing language to keep us fighting with each other. As long as potential radicals are trained to automatically equate the word capitalism with evil, we're not gonna get anywhere.


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## Soulutions

malaclypse said:


> Capitalism is the use of capital in exchange for goods or services. It's not a system or an ideology.
> 
> You are talking about Corporatism. The powers that be are very fond of twisting and abusing language to keep us fighting with each other. As long as potential radicals are trained to automatically equate the word capitalism with evil, we're not gonna get anywhere.


No, now I have used Google and I was pretty damn close. Using "capitol," which itself is a pretty vague term, for the exchange of goods or services is closer to the definition of Economics, not capitalism. 
But your right about language and how definitions arent universal


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## Soulutions

It is a system


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## DrewSTNY

Soulutions said:


> This is a few of the beefs I have with capitalism as of now.
> 1. Endless, literally, endless resource mining. The consumer culture( out with the old and in with the new, compulsively ) is undoubtedly what funds this economic system. This will occasionally lead to the u.s. military "Spreading Democracy and Freedom" in countries we have no business in, other than plunder. Africa for example. I know I can't say consumer culture is exclusive to capitalism but it is the most important cog, I'd say.
> 2. land owner ship and Usery
> Land ownership, and why it's unreasonable, can get kinda dragged out. So, I'll give a summery unless someone wants the long version.
> A landowner collects rent, every month, because he claims the Right to take your money for living on that particular piece of land. And what does this money represent? Nothing, neither labor done or risk taken. And if you want to say, "well he(land owner) is taking a risk by letting the renter stay on that land or in that house." If so then why isn't it the other way around? If the renter is a good Stewart of the land ( or house) and keeps the natural course of entropy or decay at Bay, then why wouldn't the land owner compensate them for keeping it in good shape rather than them having to do it for themselves


Consumerism -

Have you researched Chinese companies in northern Africa? There is little regard for child labor.

How about gold and diamond mines?

https://www.hrw.org/news/2013/09/11/africas-child-mining-shame

Singling out one nation is disingenuous. While the US by and large involves itself in far too many other nations, Russia and China are both in the race to spread their power beyond their borders.

On the second point of property rights -

While first nation cultures did not treat property the same as European invaders, they did fight over territory. Try going into a neighboring tribe's territory without invite and you'll either find yourself enslaved or dead.


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## dumpster harpy

Soulutions said:


> No, now I have used Google and I was pretty damn close. Using "capitol," which itself is a pretty vague term, for the exchange of goods or services is closer to the definition of Economics, not capitalism.
> But your right about language and how definitions arent universal




Fair enough. It would be more accurate to say that capitalism is not any one system, but an umbrella term assigned to many systems. What I'm trying to say is that free market capitalism and state capitalism are entirely different things; and that because "state capitalism" is often shortened to just "capitalism," there are many who fall into the trap of associating the two.


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## Soulutions

Drew:
I never pegged Americans as the only "consumer culture." Just that capitalism needs a consumer culture to thrive.
And your rebuttal to land ownership is little more than a straw-man argument. 

Malaclypse:
Your post is kinda confusing. But I think the word your looking for is agorism


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## DrewSTNY

No problem, Soul. 

I know that the US isn't the only consumer culture out there and that capitalism thrives on goods sold, that is the definition in a nut shell. Doesn't necessarily mean that capitalism is bad, although I would prefer a barter based economy, but that can't be regulated and the governments of the world hate stuff they can't regulate.

As far as land ownership, without going into huge amounts of details, the point I made pretty much summarized North American First Nation people's ways of treating the land they lived on. I should have said borders have existed since the human race crawled out of the ooze and they have been fighting over said borders since the first border was established. I'm not saying land ownership is bad or good, but people want a place to call their own, keep their stuff on, and keep out those who they feel would take their stuff or do harm to their person. If you choose to be a nomad, then you borrow the land you occupy, but your property travels with you. With the rise of civilization, nomadic people seem to have been snuffed out or marginalized ie. The Roma come to mind first.


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## CaptainCassius

an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

^^ From Merriam-Webster.

Capitalism is not dependant on consumerism OR fiat currency for that matter. Goods and resources still have value even if they are not in the act of being sold or traded.


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## Soulutions

"Capitalism is not dependent on consumerism"

Why would you think such?

In a capitalists system a "private or corporate" person or persons can legally own "capitol goods." Which is to say the means of production. 1. Yes or no?

"by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, Production, and the Distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market." Is earning capitol the prime motivation for producing and distributing goods? 2. yes or no?


It's in the bloody definition you gave! How often do you see factories neighboring the local landfill? You don't, because their products are meant for the people, not the dump.

3. Would you yourself labor for 10 hours a day to keep your hypothetical factory running smoothly to A. Sell the shit you make, or B. Immediately turn around and trash/donate it


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## CaptainCassius

Soulutions said:


> "Capitalism is not dependent on consumerism"
> 
> Why would you think such?
> 
> In a capitalists system a "private or corporate" person or persons can legally own "capitol goods." Which is to say the means of production. 1. Yes or no?
> 
> "by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, Production, and the Distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market." Is earning capitol the prime motivation for producing and distributing goods? 2. yes or no?
> 
> 
> It's in the bloody definition you gave! How often do you see factories neighboring the local landfill? You don't, because their products are meant for the people, not the dump.
> 
> 3. Would you yourself labor for 10 hours a day to keep your hypothetical factory running smoothly to A. Sell the shit you make, or B. Immediately turn around and trash/donate it



1. No, Capitol goods are not necessarily the means of production.

2. No, There is no prime motivator other than private decision. It may or may not be to acquire more Capitol.

3. If my shit wasn't selling, I'd close my hypothetical factory.

You're assuming that production is endless.

And you're discounting service providers.
Not all business is manufacturing.

To answer your first question; you've got it backwards

Consumerism is dependant on Capitalism
Capitalism is not dependent on Consumerism.

Consumption of goods and resources occurs regardless of economic system.
Consumerism is an attitude that's been mostly shoved down our throats to increase sales.

So the motivation of those PARTICULAR companies has been to acquire more Capitol

CORPORATIONS ^^
That are only responsible to their shareholders for turning a profit and nothing else.

However this is not ALWAYS the case, there are plenty of companies and individuals that do not operate on this principle. Not to mention non-profits.


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## DrewSTNY

Soulutions said:


> "Capitalism is not dependent on consumerism"
> 
> Why would you think such?
> 
> In a capitalists system a "private or corporate" person or persons can legally own "capitol goods." Which is to say the means of production. 1. Yes or no?
> 
> "by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, Production, and the Distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market." Is earning capitol the prime motivation for producing and distributing goods? 2. yes or no?
> 
> 
> It's in the bloody definition you gave! How often do you see factories neighboring the local landfill? You don't, because their products are meant for the people, not the dump.
> 
> 3. Would you yourself labor for 10 hours a day to keep your hypothetical factory running smoothly to A. Sell the shit you make, or B. Immediately turn around and trash/donate it


I can't reply now, but I like point 3... Edit coming

Like as in, make stuff and put it directly in the dump...


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## All Who Wander

Wow, five pages of this? 

Had a buddy that was a Marxist, then converted to Universal Objectivism after reading Atlas Shrugged. Few weeks later he's dropped em both, says he figured out a simple truth, "No matter how perfect a system you create, theres always gonna be an asshole who figures out the loopholes, exploits your perfect system, teaches others the same, and eventually ruins it." 

We began calling it the "theres always an asshole" clause, and we'd giggle whenever somebody started verbally fantasizing about a better political or resource distribution system. 

I think you have to fix the people before you try and fix the governments or economic systems.


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## BusGypsy

I"m Apolitical because I'm sick of the politics, sick of the game, and want no part of it. I protest it by refusing to participate in it.
Anarcho communist, communistic anarchy; a lot of cute buzzwords for recognition. I guess I become skeptical when people start spouting of -isms.


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