# Your views on green anarchy?



## Beer Mortal

Id really like to know your take or ideas on green anarchy
the idea of getting closer to the earth, not so much primitivism or anti civilization (those are a bit more extreme green anarchy views)
its more about the environmental issues.
Obviously im not fully about primitivism because im using a computer (not on a daily basis but often)
I just like the ideals, and i love this planet.
how do you guys feel about this school of thought?
against? for? unsure?


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## FreeBHamster

Personally i am all for anti-civilization and primitivism, but for most people myself included its not necessarily the easiest ideal to put into action right away. But any sort of step in that general direction i am all for, whether it means growing your own food, guerrilla gardening, dumpstering, bikes instead of cars. Basically finding that balance between changing your own actions and impacts on our natural world as well as fighting and taking direct action against those who are destroying our environment. There is nothing more beautiful than our natural world. Hell yeah green anarchy!


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## compass

Someone once told me I was (or called me) a green anarchist. I don't know. I think you have values and ideals, can't really subscribe to a label or category. Everything is fluid, the second you try to define something, it slips away.

But anyways, I don't think "getting closer to the Earth" is something you can believe in or not. You can live in harmony with nature or not. Our current civilization is living in discord with nature, and we see the consequences all around us. I think it's the only way to live if we (and most other life) are to continue to live.


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## Beer Mortal

FreeBHamster said:


> Personally i am all for anti-civilization and primitivism, but for most people myself included its not necessarily the easiest ideal to put into action right away. But any sort of step in that general direction i am all for, whether it means growing your own food, guerrilla gardening, dumpstering, bikes instead of cars. Basically finding that balance between changing your own actions and impacts on our natural world as well as fighting and taking direct action against those who are destroying our environment. There is nothing more beautiful than our natural world. Hell yeah green anarchy!


I agree.
i am all for riding my bike (I dont plan on owning a car) or skateboard everywhere i have to go.
im hoping to grown my own food too soon but that is very hard in a apartment area with shitty surroundings and im sure the lot of us dumpster (its always fun, once i found lollipops)
i am very respectful to the planet
im happy to see someone with the same views


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## Beer Mortal

compass said:


> Someone once told me I was (or called me) a green anarchist. I don't know. I think you have values and ideals, can't really subscribe to a label or category. Everything is fluid, the second you try to define something, it slips away.
> 
> But anyways, I don't think "getting closer to the Earth" is something you can believe in or not. You can live in harmony with nature or not. Our current civilization is living in discord with nature, and we see the consequences all around us. I think it's the only way to live if we (and most other life) are to continue to live.


Your right, well lets just say im into respecting mother earth much more than the mass.
taking action to keep from harming it.


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## sharks77

i think it's a pretty sad statement about the condition of humanity if not fucking up the earth is something people have to consciously decide to do, and doing so makes them seem "out there" to the majority of people.


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## compass

It's very sad. Unfortunately, we are conditioned from a young age to be integrated into this wasteful system of consumption. Advertising agencies employ developmental psychologists to exploit the vulnerabilites of young minds. Consumerism is literally built into the mental foundation of most people in the western (and ever expanding eastern) world. To ask people not to shop, not to waste, not to give into their ever changing fabricated wants of novelty is asking them to go against the only thing they know, everything they have built their lives around and gives them security. Anything that goes against that is incredibly threatening. The "green" movement has been flipped and exploited to just consume more. At this point, the only thing I see waking people up is something painful, terrifying and disasterous. But by the time we reach that point, it will be too late. The real potential for revolution I see is dangling a carrot, rather than by use of force. If more and more people stop "producing" for the system, stop merely living off societies waste (dumpstering, etc.), but becoming self sufficient, integrating hunting, gathering and agriculture, being healthier, happier, peaceful, harmonious with nature, the more people will be attracted to that. I'm trying to move in that direction, but I also think it's probably a pipe dream.


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## sharks77

i was thinking about this the other day and i came to the conclusion that we should just hurry up and destroy ourselves already. i was watching a show on the science channel the other day about global warming's effect on the planet and they talked about all of the periods of global warming and cooling (ice ages, etc) that the planet has dealt with in the past. the planet itself will be fine. it's only people (and certain parts of the current natural world) that are getting fucked by all of the shit we're doing to the earth. once people finish doing whatever it is we're doing, and we all die out for whatever reason (which will happen one day) then the earth will recover relatively quickly. whatever plant and animal life is left will continue to adapt and evolve, except they will no longer have humans here to fuck with them and mess everything up.

i honestly believe humanity is so far gone at this point, that the real only hope for the planet is if all of humanity is wiped out and the rest of life (whatever survives the thing that killed us) will keep on doing their thing. 99.99% of all the species that have ever lived are extinct at the moment so it's really just a matter of time... i hope it happens before too long (but after me and everybody i like is already dead anyways)


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## compass

I've definitely felt like you, and still do sometimes. I still have a little hope. I think it's just more reason to live life to the fullest, not neccessarily in a wreckless hedonistic manner, but to fulfill your values and ideals as best you can, to be constantly present and aware now, in the moment, and try to make the best of it.


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## Geoff

one of these day's i'm going to inherit around a hundred acres and a large house on that acrage and when that day comes you are all welcome to come live there for free as long as you help with the chores and growing of our food.


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## Beer Mortal

wow that sounds nice geoff haha


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## compass

Right on! I'm planning on doing some WWOOFing in the relatively near future. There's an organic farm I've got my eye on that has the purpose of teaching people everything they need to know to start a farm from scratch, plus it's in an area I like and they pay a monthly stipend.


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## FreeBHamster

Beer Mortal said:


> I agree.
> i am all for riding my bike (I dont plan on owning a car) or skateboard everywhere i have to go.
> im hoping to grown my own food too soon but that is very hard in a apartment area with shitty surroundings and im sure the lot of us dumpster (its always fun, once i found lollipops)
> i am very respectful to the planet
> im happy to see someone with the same views



Yeah i dont live in the best spot for growing a whole lot of food, but recently i started a decent sized container garden with various vegetables on a southern facing window. Super cheap and it at least cuts down some of my consumption and waste. And for sure good to know like minded people!

I still think its important to keep a certain amount of hope, positivity and all that good stuff. Sure inevitably we're all fucked but right now is all we've got, live it up and enjoy the present moment.


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## veggieguy12

For those who believe that civilization is a fatally-flawed way of living as humans, what are we willing to do about it?

Do we want to leave the experiment of civilization, let it continue to destroy all life around in while we try something else more sustainable? Or should we, perhaps, see that it's stopped before we move on?


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## Supertramp

fuckin' a. In Oregon, we have a bit of a bigger zine called Green Anarchy that comes out every season. Plus, im all about keeping oregon green.


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## Beer Mortal

Supertramp said:


> fuckin' a. In Oregon, we have a bit of a bigger zine called Green Anarchy that comes out every season. Plus, im all about keeping oregon green.



Really? ive heard of that zine, would ya mind sending me a copy?
We dont have a zine like that here, im rpetty sure atleast.
FL is pretty dirty, even the beaches nowadays.
But when I do go to the beach i find myself picking up heaps of trash from tourists and jerks.
and finding a couple nice shells
:]


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## compass

veggieguy12 said:


> For those who believe that civilization is a fatally-flawed way of living as humans, what are we willing to do about it?
> 
> Do we want to leave the experiment of civilization, let it continue to destroy all life around in while we try something else more sustainable? Or should we, perhaps, see that it's stopped before we move on?



Both.


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## ent_ink

Beer Mortal and others may be interested in this, on Strangers In A Tangled Wilderness, you'll have to google it I haven't the post numbers yet to put in links, in their Zines section are two called

Post-Civ!
Post-Civ! A Deeper Exploration

I have read through them and I like them but I don't support the implied idea of the abandonment of technology. I would rather a middle ground be sought. I like the idea of more low impact technology.

Traditionally computers had an awful amount of lead and mercury in them making them awful to scrap, better technology has knocked down the amount of lead and mercury used in them.

In the end and this is the big kicker for any country that wants to do this is you have be prepared to invest in R&D, problem is the return on them generally takes a while which is why capitalism prefers existing 'if it barely works technology' regardless of the ecological cost. (See Soviet Nuclear technology for the most extreme and god awful example - Of it barely works technology not capitalism)


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## roadbike

I don't have the time online right now to read all the way through this thread, or to make any super insightful comments, but I just wanted to weigh in on the side of the green and black.


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## moe

my take on all this, 
is just the beginning of it.
im all anti-civilization, but i have quite alot more to read up on.
i would like to see a copy of that zine.=]


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## wokofshame

well it's cool to read other peeps opinions, personally here i just say i'm an anarchist because i believe none of what i'm told and only half of what i see, it's easy to get way too deep into labels, theory books from the library, and philosophies. or even thinking too much (is that possible? well maybe if it prevents you from just havin fun)
what i'm trying to say is, do or support something because you believe in it, being an anarchist to me means thinking for yourself and not accepting all the tenets of any philosophy, pick and choose what you think is right and leave the kooky pieces

edit: i guess what i mean is back years ago i read a few books by bookchin and some other dudes and thought half of it was crap. anarchy means don't go with the crowd, write your own book etcectea


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## wartomods

This is my view on green anarchy






i see it but it is wrong


btw i am all pro civilazation... i have no believe in any form of anarchism, i am more a socialist guy...


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## veggieguy12

wartomods said:


> btw i am all pro civilazation... i have no believe in any form of anarchism, i am more a socialist guy...



Socialism is great for civilization, but ultimately it will only have us more fairly and equitably destroying the planet for _our own_ benefit rather than for the boss's benefit!

I'd rather we didn't destroy the earth... and honestly I don't care what it takes for that, whether it's a matriarchal society or a patriarchal society, whether it's egalitarian and uses consensus or a lifetime monarch or a monthly-rotating chief, whether we're a tea society or a coffee society, whatever. I don't see it being very purposeful that we eliminate class distinctions and racism and sexism only to wake up to the fact that our water is poisonous for all plants/animals to drink or live in, our air is toxic, our land base is desertified, and the *necessary* biodiversity of the planet has been fatally reduced to only what we want to eat and the last few things we didn't kill off.

Y'know, there are a wide variety of ways that people live without destroying the planet, but civilization - capitalist, socialist, or whatever - ain't one of 'em, *obviously*.


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## wartomods

neither anarchism, well anarchism would lead to even a wasteful management of resources


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## Tyler

What kind of resources would be wasted? "A resource is any physical or virtual entity of limited availability, or anything used to help one earn a living. Natural resources are derived from the environment. Human beings are also considered to be resources because they have the ability to change raw materials into valuable resources" (wikipedia). So resources, in my opinion, are stolen from the earth, water, and populations only to be manipulated, sold, and used up for the greater good of civilization. And it's all being done by the working man/woman. Without civilization we don't need these resources, so waste away! 
Anarchy involves using resources that are already given to us. The only resources we really need are land, air, water, and food. Food should come from the land, not the store. Tap water is a good recourse given to us by civilization because it's so convenient and "clean" (no time for conspiracies right now). But how did this water get so dirty in the first place? Civilization. Pollution. I wonder if we'll be paying to have clean air eventually or is that already happening?


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## veggieguy12

Tyler said:


> ...I wonder if we'll be paying to have clean air eventually or is that already happening?



About ten years ago I heard about street vendors in Mexico City (a heavily polluted, smoggy valley) selling breaths of clean air (an oxygen/nitrogen mix) to pedestrians.
I couldn't, however, find any source material on this just now.


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## hassysmacker

green anarchy: i'm all for it.

in the anti-civ sense. i'm anti-cities/civilization.

however i'm not against small scale horticultural societies.

i'm not a primitivist. i think hunter/gatherer tribes are great, but are not the only way to go.

personally i'm most interested in permaculture (wiki it) based societies of humans being fully integrated into their bioregions.

although i completely believe that due to basic laws of ecology such as carrying capacity, a lot of people are going to die before humans ever reach "sustainability". yup. i said it!


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## hassysmacker

read "endgame" by derrick jensen. i really sort of insist.

endgamethebook.org


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## finn

Tyler said:


> I wonder if we'll be paying to have clean air eventually or is that already happening?



It's already happening in Asia, except you're technically not paying for the air, you are paying for the filters to clean it. See all those pictures of people wearing what seem to be medical masks? And the people who have more money have the filters in their cars so they don't have to breathe in what they put out into the air. (Okay, most of that is actually from the coal power plants, and not the cars.)


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## Angela

hassysmacker said:


> read "endgame" by derrick jensen. i really sort of insist.
> 
> endgamethebook.org



Is there any chance that we could get you to scan and upload this? I went out looking for it awhile back on the internet and couldn't find the entire text. Anyone?


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## veggieguy12

Found this lil' one, w/ Jensen & Zerzan, _Against Civilization_, in PDF format.

I *can* send the _Endgame_ book(s) to people really *genuinely* interested in reading it, please PM me.
Just know that it is a bit big. Both volumes. A lot to read. A lot to scan.

Alternatively, you could just hear his talks/Q&As from when he was touring for the _Endgame_ release.
I've made a 2-CD version (with many track breaks) of this talk (29 March 2006 in Santa Cruz), or you can download it as two lengthy single MP3s.

Can send those discs, too. Easier, quicker to get through than the books, and cheaper than mailing the book(s). Also maybe more acceptable to others you share with...


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## wartomods

horticultural societies would require more land of the planet


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## hassysmacker

i have two audio files of D.Jensen i could put on the downloads section, but I have no idea how to upload them.

angela: sorry, there is no way in the world i'm going to scan those books. between both volumes, its like 1000 pages!!!!!! i would recommend you jump on veggieguys offer to mail some stuff or listen to his audio.

wartomods: horticultural societies would require more land of the planet...? well, i am of the notion that we have far surpassed the sustainable carrying capacity of the planet for human population. and to reapproach "sustainability" (what a fucking ugly watered down word these days!), there will need to, at some point in the future, be far less humans on the planet. perhaps billions less. 

and that being said...permacultural horticultural methods, have actually been estimated to produce as much, if not more calories than standard industrial monocropped agricultural farm. in a self-maintaining way that doesn't require the importation of fertility-enhnacing resources!


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## hassysmacker

a great short documentary on the topic:

"A Farm for the Future"

A Farm for the Future

From the synopsis on the website:
"the BBC will be broadcasting an excellent peak oil documentary; it focuses on farming. Presenter and co-producer Rebecca Hosking explores the importance of oil in farming and the potential impact of peak oil. The film has a passionate narrative centred on Rebecca’s small family farm in South West England; can she make her farm fit for the future?

The subject mater is top notch. Colin Campbell and Richard Heinberg contribute, permaculture, forest gardens, gardening vs farming, biofuels, biodiversity, industrial farming and no-till farming are all covered. It seems certain that present methods cannot go on feeding Britain as they are highly dependent on fossil-fuel. The film concentrates on the necessity to find a new way to feed the nation.

Above all, the presentation comes from the heart. It is sure to capture the imagination of many people who, not least due to the deepening recession, are primed for new ideas like never before."


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## hassysmacker

i figured it out! there is now a two part speech by Derrick Jensen in the downloads section. You just need unzipping software. winzip, winrar, whatever mac/linux alternatives there are, etc.


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## Linda/Ziggy

Hey all,
Just wanted to add some bits here.

Well I am an Anarcho/autonomist (can't spell it!)
And I live a pretty 'Green' life and also into learning foraging and survival skills
and yeah vegan most of the time.

But I don't call myself a Green Anarchist,
That is largely due to the fact that I was supporting and active in the Green Anarchist community while I was living in the UK, and the British Green Anarchist magazine
was defending a know rapist in the Green Anarchist community.
I was also sick dealing with spoilt, arrogant priviledged white middle class people,
telling everyone else how to live.

I was raised working class, been poor most of my life.

I think there are some good & bad ideas in primitivism.
But I suppose you can describe primitivist in many ways.

I also think it is extremely dangerous to romanticize
tribal/primitive culture and to think that it is
egalitarian or to think that non industrailized people are in 'tune with nature'.
There is still violence/war/slavery and females and children are still abused, raped,
etc in many of those cultural/tribal situations.
It was happening in North America long before the Europeans came here.
Not on such an industrial or genocidal scale, but it was still happening.

Also when many civilizations /systems collapse Mafia/Ganga and new thugs
take over.
So I think the best thing to do is to prepare and to know how
to fight back and to create safe spaces, sort of like the peace 
communities in Colombia who are saying no to the government,
leftist armys, state army and drug cartels.

On the same note
Sorry but...................
I've been active in the Anarcho & Punk & alternative community for about 30 years and
you wouldn't believe some of the bullshit & abuse I have come across.
So I really despair sometimes about the future if we can't even get it right now.

What I try to do in my life is to create the world and life that I want to live.
The 'Revolution' is now, it's how you live your life and create change.


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## hassysmacker

I would like to contribute a good zine to this whole topic called "Post Civ"

Post Civ: A Deeper Exploration

by Strangers in a Tangled WIlderness


"Post-Civilization

To be remarkably brief, Post-Civilization is a political and social theory that is built from the following:

1 – This civilization is, from its foundation, unsustainable. It
probably cannot be salvaged, and, what’s more, it would be
undesirable to do so.
2 – It is neither possible, nor desirable, to return to a pre-
civilized state of being.
3 – It is therefore desirable to imagine and enact a post-
civilized culture.

For others, it might be simplest to understand that we are green anarchists who do not outright reject technology or mediation, who do not fetishize pre-civilized methods of survival.

For those whom none of the above made any sense, let me say it this way: we believe in radical sustainability - we want to create a society that can actually continue. And we want that society to be egalitarian, that is, a society of equals. We don’t believe in the myth that this civilization represents the pinnacle of human achievement, nor do we believe in the myth that pinnacle of human culture was when we were nomadic hunter-gatherers. We believe that the future can be awesome, if we make it awesome.
"

postcivilized.net


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## Angela

hassysmacker said:


> angela: sorry, there is no way in the world i'm going to scan those books. between both volumes, its like 1000 pages!!!!!! i would recommend you jump on veggieguys offer to mail some stuff or listen to his audio.



Wow, I had no idea that it was that large but that explains why nobody else has already uploaded it anywhere on the internet.


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## hassysmacker

yah its pretty long. but totally recommended.


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## veggieguy12

Here's some other stuff from the author of Endgame:
2x 30min: TUC Radio: Bringing Down Civilization
26min. interview: Ecoshock Features: Kick It Over
1hr interview: Elephant Talk: Derrick Jensen
1hr 40min, from 2005: Healing the Earth: Civilization's Endgame, Strategies, and Tactics
Endgame official site audio offerings
mixed media feat. Jensen
interview with George Draffan, a Jensen compatriot: Healing the Earth: Welcome to the Machine
a call to action, audio collage feat. John Trudell & Richard Heinberg & Jensen & others:
Systemic Failures: Bone Days


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## Geoff

wartomods said:


> horticultural societies would require more land of the planet



but that wouldn't be a problem if the land being used was growing food through permaculture. If the horitcultural "cropland" was merely a self sustaining native ecosystem in itself it would maintain itself long after we die. And it would cause little to no harm to the environment surrounding it.


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## hassysmacker

I'll drink to that!

CHeers sir!


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