# crimthinc...



## dirty_rotten_squatter

Am I the only one that thinks this is a joke? I mean a bunch of rich kids out being rebellious thinking that the government is out to get them and their politically correctness and consent b/s. That's just me though whats your peoples opinions?


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## Ravie

i dont know about it enough to agree with you. sounds like a bunch of shit though.


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## eatmonksus

crimethinc is a pseudo anarchist group. they only talk about the cool parts of being homeless and dirty, because they have the money and "education" to fall back on if shit fucks up.


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## dirty_rotten_squatter

eatmonksus said:


> crimethinc is a pseudo anarchist group. they only talk about the cool parts of being homeless and dirty, because they have the money and "education" to fall back on if shit fucks up.



Yeah I totally got that vibe. I went to half of one of their conventions, and the whole consent shit was ridiculous.."Do I have consent to sit next to you" what the hell is that and you can just tell its a bunch of rich snobs who honestly think that the government has nothing else better to do than send informants to catch them. LAME!!


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## Ravie

oh....well thats fucking lame.


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## eatmonksus

we should start an anti crimethinc organization, and got to their conventions and shit, to show em how REAL dirty kids roll..


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## dirty_rotten_squatter

Ravie said:


> oh....well thats fucking lame.



big time, I wasted time effort and missed a pretty good show to go to that crap never again the activist scene is totally done for. ill just stick to hoppin trains from now on.


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## Ravie

ive never been into orginized anarchy/activism or anything of the sort. its wasted effort and especially in the anarchist scene they sometimes become what they say they fight against. anarchy is chaos, so how can they orginize a group to fight for chaos? is it not the same as govornment or school systems? joining together for a similar cause? its all BS and word vomit in the end.


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## eatmonksus

the activist scene ain't lame, crimethinc is. they aren't an activist group. just a group pretending to be. yea, hopping trains is all we really need. just gimme an open gondola headed everywhere and i'm happy


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## eatmonksus

anarchy isn't chaos. its just the lack of a centralised government. basically tribes in a sense...


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## Ravie

never said it was lame. just said i dont personally like it. i hear " well i spent five years trying to save this species of animal but we only ended up saving one, wich later got sick and died..." too much. good intentions i believe in, but personally im not going to waste five years crying over a tree that will eventually get torn down anyway. or whatever it may be.


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## dirty_rotten_squatter

anarchy is chaos, so how can they orginize a group to fight for chaos? is it not the same as govornment or school systems? joining together for a similar cause? its all BS and word vomit in the end.[/QUOTE]

Well its not necessarily chaos its the absence of government, but just because theres an absence of government doesnt mean that there would be chaos but people like to think that way. the symbol of anarchy is the a going out of the circle. the circle representing the government, and the a going outside meaning that we wont be controlled by or stay in the walls the government creates. Ive been involved in activism since I was about 15 but going to that convention just made me lose all hope and Im just doing my own thing now.


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## Ravie

eatmonksus said:


> anarchy isn't chaos. its just the lack of a centralised government. basically tribes in a sense...




but if you think about the way you put it, it is, in the end it's own govornment by demanding a certain way of living (tribes) or whatever it may be. in the end the human race craves orginised leading. just as anarchists dont want a central govornment it seems the majority does, and by forcing the thoughts of the minority on the majority it eventually causes chaos.... wich leads me to calling anarchy chaos because (believe it or not) anarchists are the minority and if you really think about it it would be just as fucked up to force the idiots who live in a centralised gov to live as anarchists do as it is for anarchists to live as they are. in the end no one wins in politics.


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## eatmonksus

Ravie said:


> but if you think about the way you put it, it is, in the end it's own govornment by demanding a certain way of living (tribes) or whatever it may be. in the end the human race craves orginised leading. just as anarchists dont want a central govornment it seems the majority does, and by forcing the thoughts of the minority on the majority it eventually causes chaos.... wich leads me to calling anarchy chaos because (believe it or not) anarchists are the minority and if you really think about it it would be just as fucked up to force the idiots who live in a centralised gov to live as anarchists do as it is for anarchists to live as they are. in the end no one wins in politics.



man i hate that majority rules bs.


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## dirty_rotten_squatter

Well put, and I dont doubt for one second that we are the minority and its not really forced to the majority, its just aggressively shown, and in that case I presume that it would cause chaos, but it would get a point across. So many people complain about taxes, complain about politicians and how corrupt they are, yet they agree with it and go vote for those very politicians that they will be complaining about when a year goes by.


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## Ravie

Well its not necessarily chaos its the absence of government, but just because theres an absence of government doesnt mean that there would be chaos but people like to think that way. the symbol of anarchy is the a going out of the circle. the circle representing the government, and the a going outside meaning that we wont be controlled by or stay in the walls the government creates. Ive been involved in activism since I was about 15 but going to that convention just made me lose all hope and Im just doing my own thing now.[/QUOTE]

ah, but remember, we are talking about the masses, not just you and i. if people found out they had no law, there would be chaos because of the simple fact human beings are naturally destructive and like to see the far reaches of their limits. there would be a wave of a week or so where no one broke many laws(because we are all brainwashed to naturally not do certain things), then chaos, then eventually the dumb and destructive would kill themselves or eachother or the people would take matters into their own hands...eventually creating their own smaller versions of govornment/communities then a while down the line creating a larger central govornment again....its human nature. to be dumb.


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## Ravie

dirty_rotten_squatter said:


> Well put, and I dont doubt for one second that we are the minority and its not really forced to the majority, its just aggressively shown, and in that case I presume that it would cause chaos, but it would get a point across. So many people complain about taxes, complain about politicians and how corrupt they are, yet they agree with it and go vote for those very politicians that they will be complaining about when a year goes by.




if its not one thing, its another. if its not taxes, its their marraige, if its not govornment its their job, if its not life its their dreams. people live to judge. theres realy no way to please us all.


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## dirty_rotten_squatter

Ravie said:


> if its not one thing, its another. if its not taxes, its their marraige, if its not govornment its their job, if its not life its their dreams. people live to judge. theres realy no way to please us all.



Eh, I just stick to hoppin trains now it seems to tickle my fancy pretty well these days. maybe they should try that.


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## Ravie

lol sorry to get so serious on you guys. i love talking politics and anarchy. or i just love arguing on good subjects.


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## eatmonksus

i'd be more into a discussion, if it were it in real life. i just feel like im discussing with a box with a picture on it.


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## dirty_rotten_squatter

eatmonksus said:


> i'd be more into a discussion, if it were it in real life. i just feel like im discussing with a box with a picture on it.



I get what you mean..my fingers are getting kinda tired anyhow lol


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## Ravie

lol true. its harder to put thoughts together while typing too. are you going to the stp gathering in portland?


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## eatmonksus

maybe. i was in portland, but i got picked up, and my friends had to bail me out, and they stole me back to seattle...


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## Ravie

well you have a month and a half to get back there haha but if you do go i will see that we drag this convorsation on.


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## eatmonksus

definitely. i dig these conversations. i just wish i was stoned. i come up with some crazy shit...


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## Ravie

you should hear my theory on evolution haha


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## veggieguy12

CrimethInc is an umbrella group for various people who may be associated, or may not be connected at all but simply agree on an outlook - if not totally, at least enough to share the label when publishing and distributing.

I don't know how the "convergences" are organized or publicized or how locations are decided, and I haven't been to one. (You can see a story here on StP of how NickCofphee and I tried & failed to make the June '08 one in Milwaukie, WI area.)

I really quite appreciate CrimethInc's propaganda and perspective on the world; I think I'd be friends with most kids involved with CrimethInc.


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## IBRRHOBO

We do info clearinghouse work and pubs outta our own cell here. CrimethInc. comes in many 'flavors'. In that, is the beauty. The SF Bay area cell is a pretty classic case-in-point. We're autonomous just as each and every cell is as such. 

As for being educated, I guess if u call prison educated, so be it. As to money, well, I run sign periodically still to help pay my bills.

Addressing the poly sci debate: I am curious as to whether we are discussing anarchy as a political dogma or pure, unadulterated anarchy. You see, either way, no more internet, no more spanging, no more trains, no more hitchhiking, no more dumpstering, no more running water, no more ... well you get the point. Yeah, I suppose the Black Flag is cool to wear and shit. The simple reality of the 21st Century is that it is good coffee shop debate. It is more en vougue than applicable as an institution. Spare the rhetoric before it starts. Now, addressing areas of class war, et al., which unfortunately become thrown in the pile of the phrase 'anarchy' this is the furthest thing from the truth. You're dealing more w/socialism. Not bad ideas really; however, probably impediments to a modern society.

A good primer for those who think anarchy is plausible _outside_ the mosh pit would be the Putney Debates or perhaps a simple skimming of Leviathan. I would, though, invite a thorough debate at one's leisure. A nice summation there provided by my 'education'! lol


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## sweet potatoe

Ravie said:


> but if you think about the way you put it, it is, in the end it's own govornment by demanding a certain way of living (tribes) or whatever it may be. in the end the human race craves orginised leading. just as anarchists dont want a central govornment it seems the majority does, and by forcing the thoughts of the minority on the majority it eventually causes chaos.... wich leads me to calling anarchy chaos because (believe it or not) anarchists are the minority and if you really think about it it would be just as fucked up to force the idiots who live in a centralised gov to live as anarchists do as it is for anarchists to live as they are. in the end no one wins in politics.



well i used to say alot that if anarchists could live on their own terms away from government, an then anyone who needed that structure could stick with the government, like bringing together the likeminded peoples, but that would be quite boring as it would be kind of a monocultural society or place for awhile. then youd also have alot of people still seeing that other, governed part of the world killing things, and doing whatever evils. while the governed people may see the anarchists as another people to conquer. haha

contradicting circles are great
and despite whatever contradictions i still beleive in anarchy.
and some of crimethincs writings can be beautiful, even if some of the more fucked up parts arent written about. maybe some of us or someone can get together and write something that includes th good shit and the bad?


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## Ravie

*sigh* in the end we just disect and review, but it allways ends the same. what a shame humanity is...


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## bote

some of the writing is hard to swallow, but I´m glad they take the time to disseminate it as they do.


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## griffjam

I love crimethinc. But yeah, the first time I read Days of War  I didn't understand it and thought it was asking too much, and reading Evasion depressed me about half way through but I think that was more of the alienation of our current consumer society more than it was the protagonist's traveling alone because I didn't like On the Road when I read it for a school project. I like Off the Map much better, but that could be because I just like Europe. All in all crimethinc. is just a publishing collective, publishing Evasion  doesn't mean they're saying, "Nihilist escapism is the way to go!" just like if Scholastic published a book on the Spanish Civil War doesn't make them anarchist. They published Evasion to attract people who are already apart of the traveler subculture, and it was unpolitical because they didn't want it to come off preachy.


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## ReturnTrip

i don't mind crimethinc too much...some of there ideas can be far fetched but i feel that they mean well. sometimes they spawn the kind of people that turn into preachy elitist anarchist/crusties, regardless they have a disclaimer at the front of days of war that says that you can believe whatever you want to believe and to take whatever they say with a grain of salt. 

i don't know..maybe i'll post here when i'm not drunk


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## FreeBHamster

My two cents is basically that crimethinc is at least a step in the right direction. They opened me up to some new ideas. Nothing wrong with that.


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## ReturnTrip

FreeBHamster said:


> My two cents is basically that crimethinc is at least a step in the right direction. They opened me up to some new ideas. Nothing wrong with that.



i completely agree


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## mkirby

Yeah crimethinc might be made up of rich kids or whatever...but you can't help what you're born into. They've got some good ideas and projects. If they change the way people think even a little bit, they're a good thing.


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## veggieguy12

mkirby said:


> Yeah crimethinc might be made up of rich kids or whatever...but you can't help what you're born into.



Where does this idea come from, that CrimethInc'ers are 'a bunch of rich kids'? I hear this all the time, but aside from the one guy who's thought to have written _Evasion_ while he was on the lam from the FBI - and I believe that one of the CrimethInc groups merely got his zines and put them into book form, I don't believe he was otherwise or previously associated with CrimethInc. - I don't know if anyone acutally knows anyone who's written their stuff or sent website orders out from their main distro center in Salem(?). So how does anyone know enough to keep mentioning them as a bunch of rich kids? God-*damn*!, that's so cliché.
Whatever money anyone's folks might have, I'm sure the CrimethInc anarchists aren't driving BMWs or eating at The Cheesecake Factory nightly, y'know?



Ravie said:


> *sigh* in the end we just disect and review, but it allways ends the same. what a shame humanity is...



Humanity is quite a large species which has many variations of living styles, ethics, customs, etc., within it; the screw-up experiments in human history or the failed societies are no more the essence of _homo sapiens_ than the Nazi Party are the essence of the German people/nation. I think civilization - the extraction of mineral and fuel sources for power, the domination of all non-humans (plant & animal), the supremacy of agriculture to provide exclusively what we want to eat and the exclusion of what other species need or what the diverse landscape provided after millions of years evolving prior to human intervention - these things are pretty obviously not going to last forever, it's a self-destructive system. I can't say if it will last another 10 years only or maybe another fifty, but it won't take long to fail - just look at the ecological crisis it has brought about it in a very short time (considering the 5 billion years of the planet and the 65 million years that mammals have been evolving to the 2.5 million years of upright-walking apes from which we evolved & branched-off about 200,000 years ago).



IBRRHOBO said:


> Addressing the poly sci debate: I am curious as to whether we are discussing anarchy as a political dogma or pure, unadulterated anarchy. You see, either way, no more internet, no more spanging, no more trains, no more hitchhiking, no more dumpstering, no more running water, no more ... well you get the point.



I should say that I'm not much for theoretical "anarchy", the stuff of long talks filled with abstract jargon. I prefer to define anarchy by actions or motivations, and anarchists by their principles and conduct.
Having said that...
Why would the absence of governors mean that nobody begged for money, or that trains didn't transport materials or people, or that people didn't beg for a lift roadside as others drove past? Why would salvaging the throw-aways end, why would the plumbing and aquifers and reservoirs be abandoned?
If you think these changes would be unpleasant, I suspect most people would agree - thus, I figure people would make an effort to maintain these things to function similarly as now, without a threatening government to regulate or protect the operation.

It's like when I mention secession of regions or states from these United, and people say "Well I don't want to show a passport every time I go to ____". Okay, I hear that all the time, so _nobody_ wants to do passports - so ya don't do it!, isn't that obvious? You do what you want. _That_ is anarchy: you aren't coerced or obliged, you exercise your own power.
"Do as thou wilt... that shall be the whole of the law." - Alan Moore, _V for Vendetta_

Y'know, if we think to the government's potential today, it is to serve people (arguably only for show, anyway); but in the last eight years, and more obviously over the early 1900s, government was plainly and without any veil in service to industrial barons and their wealth, securing it from the riff-raff public masses.
Anarchy is achieved simply when laboring, lower-claste people realize that they really don't need to support another institution which works with their enemies more than with them.



IBRRHOBO said:


> A good primer for those who think anarchy is plausible _outside_ the mosh pit would be the Putney Debates or perhaps a simple skimming of Leviathan.



I haven't read _Leviathan_, but I did read _The Social Contract_; I think my current perspective on things says that these thinkers could not have understood their time and place in human history as on the edge of a dead end experiment with a way some humans choose to live, but rather they likely saw themselves as living at the peak of human destiny, fulfilling the divine and honorable role intended for Man.
That would be the first flaw in their assessments.
Maybe you could explain what of Hobbes's positions/statements you think is valid and relevant to our world today, in light of how far science and technology and eco-destruction and overpopulation and anthropology have come since the 17th Century.
Also, Kanye West, they didn't have Kanye West back then.


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## IBRRHOBO

Now here's a DAMN GOOD reply by veggieguy! Yeah, sorry couldn't make the StP in April; shit, we'd bum everyone out w/our debates around the fire pit, bottle in hand, and ranting on like madmen!!! lol

Nuts and bolts: why would things change w/o 'governors'? Well, first and probably foremost, unless there is a GENERATIONAL shift (@ least 2 to 3 decades and probably more like five to six) the transition of power and education into the hands of semi-nomadic and semi-literate people would cause the implosion of at least the infrastructure. No logistics, no food. Here I am taking the supposition that 'anarchy' would be implemented in a momentous strike. Let me give an analogy: the widget (supplant hanburger, tofu, internet, porno whatever the fuck). We have a system which requires laws to get the widget from a to b in a timely fashion. If tomorrow we say, "Well, I don't want to make it anymore, or I don't want to transport it, or I want to make a million of them instead of 100 or I want to drive 150 all the way..." then the widget doesn't get to point b. Here, we extrapolate the following: if the widget doesn't get to point b, people die (call the widget medicine or food). Well, ok they die. Yeah, but what of cholera, where do we put the bodies, etc? Hell, let's presume that there would be leadership in anarchy, ah, but we can't as that is antithietical to the premise of anarchy. So, you see, when you state that the plumbing, et al., would continue, I counter that it wouldn't as who is going to tell whom to do what? In anarchy it doesn't work. 

Your point on cessation of region/states has been tried and failed. Now, I will concede this: First, I am interested in the finer points of anarchy. Just as I am interested in the finer points of democracy (and actually we are a republic, not a democracy). An inner meshing would be good. My final issue w/application of anarchy is this: if tomorrow we shift, what do you think our foreign adversaries will do? Idly stand by? Do you think that a rag tag band of black flaggers will be more or less effective in defending this country than the, albeit hated, military? Ney, I say.

I believe, in closer examination of your statement of getting rid of the institutions that the masses serve, etc., is closer to a socio-political anarchosocialism. 

I had actually brought up the book and Debates as they were opposed to anarchy. Granted, out of date, but history catagorically repeats itself. Go no further than the Oracle of Delphi; for when Socrates asked of her the meaning of life? "Know thyself." In this, you and I debate the same debates which have occured for centuries. And this, my friend IS A GOOD THING! For, when the voices of the masses are silenced, who will speak then? Vincit Omnia Veritas ... Truth Conquers All.


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## Seldom Seen Smith

i moved to North Carolina after living down in GA for several years, and the crimethinc people here are annoying and PC as hell. i agree with them on certain things but these people are nothing but dogmatic, coffee shop revolutionaries that do nothing but hang out in there clicks like a bunch of high school kids. if your not privileged like them and misspeak or say something they find offensive they'll just all over you and oust you forever. 

the book evasion is stupid too. the damn kid finds bagels in every dumpster he visits.

needless to say i stopped hanging out with those people and would rather work on my own projects.


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## finn

I just see it as an alternative publishing company. I didn't like Evasion, though the book was better than the zine. I couldn't get through the first pages of Days of War, Nights of Love, just because of the romantic language it used. I hate pseudo-intellectual writing because it's easy to make a simple idea sound overly complex and hard to make a difficult idea simple to understand. Off the Map, as I understand it, had nothing to do with crimethinc aside from being published by them. I did like that book.

I'd like to see them publish a book that had case studies of collectively operated workplaces (or even just infoshops), so that people are given solid and concrete examples of successful models which they can make a living from, instead of untried concepts and bits of who-knows-how-accurate historical lore.

That's why I'm leaning towards crimethinc'ers being rich kids- pushing the rhetoric instead of putting bread on the table on their terms. They don't go for the important nitty-gritty details and just bask in some imaginary future la-la land of anarchy.


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## dirty_rotten_squatter

finn said:


> I just see it as an alternative publishing company. I didn't like Evasion, though the book was better than the zine. I couldn't get through the first pages of Days of War, Nights of Love, just because of the romantic language it used. I hate pseudo-intellectual writing because it's easy to make a simple idea sound overly complex and hard to make a difficult idea simple to understand. Off the Map, as I understand it, had nothing to do with crimethinc aside from being published by them. I did like that book.
> 
> I'd like to see them publish a book that had case studies of collectively operated workplaces (or even just infoshops), so that people are given solid and concrete examples of successful models which they can make a living from, instead of untried concepts and bits of who-knows-how-accurate historical lore.
> 
> That's why I'm leaning towards crimethinc'ers being rich kids- pushing the rhetoric instead of putting bread on the table on their terms. They don't go for the important nitty-gritty details and just bask in some imaginary future la-la land of anarchy.




Exactly, it makes it sound all fun and floating on cloud nine, but they dont share all of the brutality or being shunned by society and I think thats why mommys boys are so proned to going through that is because they think they can go about being rebelious without getting there hands thoroughly dirty


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## mkirby

Seldom Seen Smith said:


> the book evasion is stupid too. the damn kid finds bagels in every dumpster he visits.




I actually liked that bit. I find bagels in tons of dumpsters.


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## veggieguy12

dirty_rotten_squatter said:


> ...it makes it sound all fun and floating on cloud nine, but they dont share all of the brutality or being shunned by society...



Well I'm not saying this assessment is correct, or that it's what CrimethInc's intentions are, but I'm not saying you're wrong - what I wanna say is, if you tell people about the tough stuff and the bad parts, that's a turn off.
So if CrimethInc is trying to get people to drop out of the mainstream and maybe even rebel against it, _of course_ they're gonna highlight and polish-up and romanticize the good days and benefits more than the bad days and difficulties.


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## dirty_rotten_squatter

veggieguy12 said:


> Well I'm not saying this assessment is correct, or that it's what CrimethInc's intentions are, but I'm not saying you're wrong - what I wanna say is, if you tell people about the tough stuff and the bad parts, that's a turn off.
> So if CrimethInc is trying to get people to drop out of the mainstream and maybe even rebel against it, _of course_ they're gonna highlight and polish-up and romanticize the good days and benefits more than the bad days and difficulties.



Yeah and that's exactly why it brings in the crowd it does. Horribly overly security cultured overly politically correct kids who want to have fun and cant reall think far enough outside of the box, and once they get a taste of wht its really like they become afraid, hence the overly security culturedness and they try to be so careful that they draw attention to themselves and end up being careless. I mean I went to one and my last convention last year. They were teaching you how to make dirty bombs and how to prepare for chemical warfare by the government I was looking around, I was most likely one of the oldest ones there (being 22) and they were teaching these kids this shit and they were soaking it up. Now Im not dogging on the younger kids alot of them are really cool and arent like this at all, but I heard one say "oh yeah I put that in my neighbors mail box it was funny" I mean is that what they really want to be contibuting to? I knew this crimthinc rail rider and he wouldnt let us coppy his cc reason being he didnt want it to fall in to the hands of the government. I told him that if they really wanted it they could get it if they didnt already have it and what would they do with it anyway? And they are just so clicky, they dont really talk to anyone outside of there little bubble. Now I'm not saying all of them are like this, just the more than enough that I've run into. But that's my bash on them. I agree with some of you, it is a good way to get your foot in the door to understanding but I would never walk all the way in


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## griffjam

dirty_rotten_squatter, seriously STFU, just because you had a run in with a few people you didn't like who happened to like crimethinc. doesn't mean everyone is like them or crimethinc. is like them. you are stereotyping and its pissing me off. going to a convention does not make you and expert on crimethinc. and does not give you the ability to pass judgment. using terms like "crimthinc rail rider" just make you look like a prejudiced jackass


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## dirty_rotten_squatter

griffjam said:


> dirty_rotten_squatter, seriously STFU, just because you had a run in with a few people you didn't like who happened to like crimethinc. doesn't mean everyone is like them or crimethinc. is like them. you are stereotyping and its pissing me off. going to a convention does not make you and expert on crimethinc. and does not give you the ability to pass judgment. using terms like "crimthinc rail rider" just make you look like a prejudiced jackass



Well, now I am quoting myself, if you would have taken the time to read the entire post I would not have to..."Now I'm not saying all of them are like this, just the more than enough that I have run into" and I never said that I was "passing judgement" or that I was an expert on crimthinc, I was just merely expessing my views on it as everyone on here is. Now I'm sorry that you are overly sensitive and that I have offended you but you really shouldnt take things to heart like that, it's just my opinion on it, as you have your own.


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## finn

griffjam said:


> dirty_rotten_squatter, seriously STFU, just because you had a run in with a few people you didn't like who happened to like crimethinc. doesn't mean everyone is like them or crimethinc. is like them. you are stereotyping and its pissing me off. going to a convention does not make you and expert on crimethinc. and does not give you the ability to pass judgment. using terms like "crimthinc rail rider" just make you look like a prejudiced jackass



What? No hate mail for me? I feel left out! But I think what I am personally stereotyping is not exactly crimethinc, but teenagers who have discovered something new and don't have their heads on straight yet. Whenever I hear people using security culture for a dishonest excuse for just about anything, I think to myself that I'm dealing with some frightened kids. And I'm probably right most of the time, the world is a tough place, and you should be tough if you're not living in a nice legal place. For instance, taking offense to some criticism like that is a bit too sensitive and defense to be tough. Also, if you keep on flying off the handle at every little jab, I'll start assuming your hormones are a bit unbalanced.


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## dirty_rotten_squatter

I know don't you feel jealous? haha. I'm guessing he was for crimthinc, judging by his profile. Which presents my point even more


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## ent_ink

> Well I'm not saying this assessment is correct, or that it's what CrimethInc's intentions are, but I'm not saying you're wrong - what I wanna say is, if you tell people about the tough stuff and the bad parts, that's a turn off.
> So if CrimethInc is trying to get people to drop out of the mainstream and maybe even rebel against it, of course they're gonna highlight and polish-up and romanticize the good days and benefits more than the bad days and difficulties.



I can see where you are coming from on that, as a recruitment point of view but I find that just as bad as when the army recruitment posters go up and make no mention of the physical dangers of being in the Armed Forces.

This is going to sound preachy as fuck, but when you try to introduce something to someone fine, list the good points first or if you’re me you like hearing the bad stuff first.

In any case you have to tell them what their in for. I haven’t travelled before, I’d like to though and do I think it will be a gold plated journey to wonderland. Hell no I think I’ll hate it, most of the time will be miserable slogging with soaked clothes and no fucker giving you lift.

That said I look forward to it for the journey itself and the people who I’d travel with. I haven’t met any CrimethInc people and I’ve only read their free stuff on their site which did seem a bit overwritten in places, other than that I can’t comment. As you can see though I have very strong feelings on the telling the truth about what your getting them into side.


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## veggieguy12

ent_ink said:


> ...I find that just as bad as when the army recruitment posters go up and make no mention of the physical dangers of being in the Armed Forces.



Yeah, but the difference is that the Army is getting you _in_ so that _*they*_ can *use* _you_; CrimethInc propaganda - or joyful anarchy or whatever you wanna call it - it's getting you _out_ so that you can live your own life fully and without restraints (whether imposed from within or without). They may be similar tactically, but the difference in motivation and goal is enormous and important.



ent_ink said:


> I haven’t travelled before, I’d like to though and do I think it will be a gold plated journey to wonderland. Hell no I think I’ll hate it, most of the time will be miserable slogging with soaked clothes and no fucker giving you lift.
> ...I look forward to it for the journey itself and the people who I’d travel with.



Well that's why I don't think it's such a problem or failure of ethics to not list all the downsides of being out of the mainstream, because *you'll survive*! You're not gonna give up possessions and working and renting and then suddenly collapse dead and regretful in the wilderness!
If you told a kid that when the training wheels come off, she might lose balance and fall over and scrape a knee or bruise an elbow, and there will be pain and blood - well, do you think the kids is eager to learn to bicycle? It's not lying to the kid or misleading him not to say that walking means falling, etc., it's just part of life. The Army is not part of life, and the first thing people figure about militaries is that they'll get you killed trying to kill others, so of course armies have to mislead to recruit.
Hollaaaaaaaaaaa!!!


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## ent_ink

I wasn't quite trying to draw parallels between Army recruitment and CrimethInc. just saying that the same lack of complete frankness is a problem. If you are making propaganda it does have to take a back seat but it still irks me as I don’t like the idea of the truth being back seated for anything but that’s just me.

In end who wants how much frankness is a matter of individual choice.

Incidentally I cannot get the thought of you jumping out of bushes and screaming "Hollaaa" at passers by out of my head....


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## seke

I really like Crimethinc actually. Most of them aren't actually rich. It's like the ALF, its decentralized, people can call themselves crimthincers, and may act, say, or do certain things, but that doesn't mean it should rep the whol organization. I like the writing, a bit too romantic at times. But they are doing SOMETHING... idk, I understand the criticisms, but I tend to like them for the most part.


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## seke

Ravie said:


> but if you think about the way you put it, it is, in the end it's own govornment by demanding a certain way of living (tribes) or whatever it may be. in the end the human race craves orginised leading. just as anarchists dont want a central govornment it seems the majority does, and by forcing the thoughts of the minority on the majority it eventually causes chaos.... wich leads me to calling anarchy chaos because (believe it or not) anarchists are the minority and if you really think about it it would be just as fucked up to force the idiots who live in a centralised gov to live as anarchists do as it is for anarchists to live as they are. in the end no one wins in politics.




here is the common misconception with anarchism, which is just why i call myself an anti authoritarian. Anarchists do believe in organization. The circle a is actually an a and an o stand for Anarchy IS order, dating back to the Spanish Civil War I think. Theres a good page on wikipedia I think about anarchist beliefs and practices.


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## wartomods

Ravie said:


> ive never been into orginized anarchy/activism or anything of the sort. its wasted effort and especially in the anarchist scene they sometimes become what they say they fight against. anarchy is chaos, so how can they orginize a group to fight for chaos? is it not the same as govornment or school systems? joining together for a similar cause? its all BS and word vomit in the end.



exactly my thoughts


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## veggieguy12

wartomods, you're weird.

I guess an alternative to CrimethInc. would be Anarchy, a Journal of Desire Armed.
If you can read through _that_ (boring) - it sure ain't "romantic", if that's your beef with CrimethInc.


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## Arapala

Ravie said:


> anarchy is chaos



HA! No offense but, you sure you aren't a part of crimethinc???


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## hassysmacker

personally these days i lean towards the same kind of anti civ anarchy that veggieguys hinting at.

but i once read a lot of crimethind and i would like to point out that in my opinion crimethinc has done more to radicalize youth than any other faction of anarchists in the last 10-15 years.


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## hassysmacker

yeah, crimethinc is a (dis)organization.


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## gangleri

Agh, I had this long prolific reply typed up and the browser on this computer fucked up. Lets pretend like this is more eloquent than it actually is, because I don't want to type it all again.

Anarchy is not chaos. It is decentralized self-rule of people. It is opposition to hierarchy. The chaos association is the result of a couple centuries of demonization by the media, capitalists, politicians, etc., who see equality as a threat to their positions of power.

It also doesn't mean a lack of organization. In fact, it requires a good deal of organization. The difference is that group decision-making (like consensus) is used to find something that works for all, rather than one person commanding others. People can still live in houses with running water if thats what they decide they want, but they won't have to pay for it anymore. The idea is that the community will exist for the people, individually and collectively, rather than existing as a venue for capitalists to make money.

Back to thread topic: Crimethinc is a distro, not a sect or a clique or anything, so lets not make them more than they are. They put out propaganda and they distribute materials, and some people like them, some don't. Perhaps the ones that don't should be constructive and put out their own ideas rather than shitting on other people who are doing stuff. I think we would all benefit from a greater diversity of viewpoints.

And they do glorify the traveling "lifestyle," this is true. But, uh, don't we all? I don't know about you all, but I post on this forum because I love the shit out of the way I live and I want to hear from other people who live that way too. I'd rather be broke, hungry, cold, tired, stranded, and caked in my own filth than work a square job, have a car, rent, etc., and I'm all down for telling people why. The way I see it, anything that inspires people to buck convention and explore a different way of life is great, and crimethinc is one of these things. I don't agree with everything they write, or some of their stylistic tendencies, but personally, I'm not going to condemn them for it. I've never met these "rich kids" that people seem to think are the driving force behind their writings. The only folks I know who I suspect write some of their stuff or I know write for them (they don't exactly advertise) are grounded in theory, passionate, usually poor, and typically humble, all of which I can respect. 

More people traveling does mean more things get blown up, like dumpsters and trains and such. These things, however, are not sustainable in their current form because they are facets of a system which is not sustainable, and pretty fucked up to boot. Besides, what makes them able to be "blown up?" Cops, security guards, bulls. Trains and dumpsters probably won't go away "after the rev," there just probably won't be a fence around them.

There was something else, but I don't remember what it was. I need to go dig in the dirt though.


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## macks

deleted. bah. sorry for bumping this needlessly, can't figure out how to delete it.


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## Harrison Bergeron

Haha. Books. Read 'em when yer bored. Burn 'em when yer cold. Isn't that what they say?


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## wartomods

veggieguy12 said:


> wartomods, you're weird.



how so ??


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## veggieguy12

You're often making simple three-word comments, and I have to seek out the meaning or relevant connection to whatever the discussion is. Your remarks are so brief and simple I wonder why you bother to post them.
I dunno, maybe it's just a non-English language issue.
Don't want to get the thread off-topic...


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## wartomods

veggieguy12 said:


> You're often making simple three-word comments, and I have to seek out the meaning or relevant connection to whatever the discussion is. Your remarks are so brief and simple I wonder why you bother to post them.
> I dunno, maybe it's just a non-English language issue.
> Don't want to get the thread off-topic...



Well you are right, but rare are the times that one of my post as brief as they can be do not carry some substancial meaning.


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## RebeccaSoup

I'm a crimethinc kid. most of the important people in my life have been deeply involved with crimethinc at some point. I've read and heard and felt all the arguments till I was blue in the face it doesn't change the fact and idea that action is just that. If there were a functional funded and productive collective to be a part of that didn't use romantic propaganda in a recruitist type fashion, maybe i would be a part of that. but there's not. a decentralized, productive faction of anarchists (lifestylists or not, I'm an anti-civ girl, myself) is better than nothing. I'm an activist. I define that as I please. And I live without regret. The only people Ive met to accept that are crimethincers.

That said, I thought evasion sucked.:die:

The end.


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## hassysmacker

RebeccaSoup said:


> I'm a crimethinc kid. most of the important people in my life have been deeply involved with crimethinc at some point. I've read and heard and felt all the arguments till I was blue in the face it doesn't change the fact and idea that action is just that. If there were a functional funded and productive collective to be a part of that didn't use romantic propaganda in a recruitist type fashion, maybe i would be a part of that. but there's not. a decentralized, productive faction of anarchists (lifestylists or not, I'm an anti-civ girl, myself) is better than nothing. I'm an activist. I define that as I please. And I live without regret. The only people Ive met to accept that are crimethincers.
> 
> That said, I thought evasion sucked.:die:
> 
> The end.



I agree with all of that and feel the same way. ANd I'm anti-civ! And Evasion DID suck! Fuck that shit.

Are you aware of Deep Green Resistance in june in MA with d. jensen and buddies?


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## L.C.

i think this arguement is petty. anything for the cause no matter how small is a help. if they aren't for you they are probably against you. i don't think it matters what your 'ism' is as long as its headed the same way. after the beast is slayed, then we can nit-pick, and go our own ways.


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## seke

What is this consent crap that people keep talking about? I never heard about it.


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## dirty_rotten_squatter

seke said:


> What is this consent crap that people keep talking about? I never heard about it.



consent pretty much takes place of the word "permission" for example if I wanted to sit next to you or hug you first, I'd say.."do I have your consent to sit next to you" or "do I have your consent to hug you" that kind of shit.


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## veggieguy12

I've never encountered shit that strict and it almost sounds exaggerated by the critics. But even what I have heard - in the extreme cases - has been ridiculous.
But I guess the idea is cool? Conversely, why wouldn't we operate on a system of making objections more directly and confidently: "Hey, don't hug me, I have scabies!" or "Hey, please don't sit there, I want that hottie to sit by me so I can get some _action_".
Action is a code word, in that example. (You know, code for what.)
Really this is not what CrimethInc. is essentially about, so the thread should move on or cease.


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## seke

no I mean, how does asking for consent have anything at all to do with crimethinc?


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## gangleri

Crimethinc emphasizes the use of consent. Which is badass and the basic concept behind the opposition to oppression. People oppress other people when they do things to them without their consent. And when there are no more cops consent will be pretty vital to having a society thats not fucked up.

vg12: I don't think more confidently objecting would really work as well as it sounds. And it shouldn't be the role of the person who is being acted upon to object, really. There are a lot of factors which don't allow people to object or defend themselves sufficiently. Like physical/emotional strength, gender roles, types of privilege, and so on.


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## dirty_rotten_squatter

veggieguy12 said:


> I've never encountered shit that strict and it almost sounds exaggerated by the critics. But even what I have heard - in the extreme cases - has been ridiculous.
> But I guess the idea is cool? Conversely, why wouldn't we operate on a system of making objections more directly and confidently: "Hey, don't hug me, I have scabies!" or "Hey, please don't sit there, I want that hottie to sit by me so I can get some _action_".
> Action is a code word, in that example. (You know, code for what.)
> Really this is not what CrimethInc. is essentially about, so the thread should move on or cease.



Nope def not over exaggerated, if anything under. I sat next to this girl at the convergence and she got pissed off that I didnt ask consent! I totally agree about the if you dont want it just say no. It may not be what crimethinc is "about" but it is a significant factor so I disagreee that it should move on.


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## dirty_rotten_squatter

gangleri said:


> vg12: I don't think more confidently objecting would really work as well as it sounds. And it shouldn't be the role of the person who is being acted upon to object, really. There are a lot of factors which don't allow people to object or defend themselves sufficiently. Like physical/emotional strength, gender roles, types of privilege, and so on.



I disagree that it shouldnt be the role of the person to object. If that person isnt emotionally strong enough to say dont sit next to me or get away, why are they in the activist scene if they cant even speak up for themselves? I say the activist scene, because this is the only place I have ever seen consent in action.


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## gangleri

There are a lot of people with a considerable amount of energy to contribute to activist/radical community that have difficulty with those kinds of situations (for example, victims of sexual assault). I certainly agree that we should all aspire to be strong as hell, but not everyone is there yet, and if we're building a movement thats going to take care of its own, we can't allow our people to be exploited, assaulted, harassed, etc, and then blame them for not saying no.

Some people take it way too far and it becomes a hindrance to everyday social interaction. This is annoying, and I'm not trying to defend it.

If you feel like you're strong enough to stand up for yourself, help those who don't. Also: white males don't always have a balanced perspective on issues of consent, privilege, class, etc, so imagine how, for example, a queer person of color would perceive the issue of consent in a society that is inherently antagonistic towards them. 

All I'm saying is, if we're going to talk about solidarity with the oppressed and such, we've gotta walk the walk in everyday life. How you interact with people on an individual basis is more important than how ready you are for insurrection, or how much you hate the cops, cause without the social element, we're not too different from the other kind of libertarians.

p.s. sorry for being so wordy all the time. i get worked up.


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## gangleri

sorry, this goddamn computer keeps double posting.


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## Beegod Santana

If you can't stand up for yourself or don't have the balls to talk back to the people who piss you off then world is gonna walk all over you. I don't care about your past, being a little wimp is no way to get things done. If you can't muster up the courage to ask someone not to sit next to you, how the FUCK do you expect to take on a government who is more than willing to kill anyone who threatens it?

I know this is gonna piss a few people off, but seriously, don't be such a fucking pussy. Live by example, I never seem to meet any of these people in the ghetto where help is really needed and there's plenty of people really pissed at the government. However it seems like you can't throw a stone in se pdx without hitting 5 crimethInc kids.


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## dirty_rotten_squatter

Word to ya motha son! Nuff said.


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## veggieguy12

Beegod Santana said:


> If you can't stand up for yourself... then world is gonna walk all over you. I don't care about your past, being a little wimp is no way to get things done. If you can't muster up the courage to ask someone not to sit next to you, how the FUCK do you expect to take on a government who is more than willing to kill anyone who threatens it?



Well I agree with that, it's just that we don't need to be inconsiderate (or maybe that is good for developing our defenses and assertion) in order to be assertive.

I agree with Gangleri that we can ask, but I also think people need to not expect that everyone will be considerate, just as you don't expect every dog to sniff you rather than bite; in either case, we need to be prepared to survive beyond the lack of friendliness.


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## finn

I think it's not too much to ask to sit next to someone, that's all fine, but people have to be careful that being considerate doesn't turn into such an elaborate etiquette that it becomes a power game. The same thing goes for security culture. (For history nerds elaborate etiquette was how Louis XIV controlled his court.) I personally haven't found crimethinc to do this, but instead isolated pockets of activists unaffiliated with them.


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## Angela

There's a huge difference between security culture and just being a rude asshole. Although the being a rude asshole seems to happen far too often when you get kids together that are more worried about their "image" and who they want to hook up with than they are about ideals or activism. 
The basic concept of consent is good but I have frequently seen it abused, used not as a means of better communication and understanding but instead as a method of exclusion and intolerance.


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