# What percentage of people do the Black Bear Ranch rules work for?



## AnOldHope

So, I've been making a bit of progress on the Desert Temple quasi-Commune I'm building, got some more solar and structure up, will be adding more water capacity next month. 

Black Bear Ranch seems to have successful stayed up for several years, in a harsher environment than I'm in. 

http://blackbearranch.org/

On their page, they have some "Traditional Guidelines", but if I'm reading their phrasing correctly, essentially if you don't follow them, you can't stay (or maybe can't become a resident, not sure where the line is drawn).

They are:

Do – Be welcoming, peaceful, kind and friendly to everyone, animals
and land.
Don’t – Be cruel, abusive or violent to anyone, animals or land
Don’t – Endanger or harm any fruit trees, structures or land.
Don’t – leave trash, we have a strict policy on “bring it in
bring it out”, This includes vehicles!
Don’t – touch the systems, electrical, water etc. without a
resident’s assistance
Do – Learn about fire safety (see fire safety guide)
Don’t – Make fires without resident permission.
Do – Get permission from the community, beneficiaries and a trustee,
before adding or destroying structures.
Don’t – add or destroy any structures without going through a
process which includes residents, beneficiaries and trustees
Don’t – take away or bring animals onto the land without going
through an acceptance process from the residents, beneficiaries and
trustees.
Don’t – grow or distribute any form of illegal drugs; marijuana,
opiates, meth etc.
Don’t– have disruptive addictive habits; alcoholism, drug
addictions etc.
Don’t – Bring your gun.
Do – Live communally.
Do- Must maintain restaurant like hygiene in all food, shower and
outhouse areas.
Don’t- Hunt on property.
Don’t – be prejudice of race, color, creed, age , or sexual
preference.


A few of them require resident permission to start a fire, or touch their infrastructure systems. I can understand that, those systems are important and vulnerable to mishandling. 

I also note they don't allow disruptive addictive habits (alcohol, etc). It would seem the residents decide what is considered "disruptive". 

They also don't permit marijuana, that would be something I would want to run differently. I would have the rule "don't sell marijuana", but you could give it to someone who needs it or share. 

They also have rules about having a gun, which also seem understandable, although I wouldn't be comfortable taking someone else's weapon into possession while they were at the Temple, I would just ask them to not have it if I did not feel comfortable with them having the weapon. 

Black Bear also requires a $3 monetary contribution to stay there. I think I would only require that if the person has the means (some form of passive income, retirement, disability, etc).

What do you all think?


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## todd

sounds like any other place you have to pay to be at.. too many dam rules and people you have to ask permission to do anything


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## AnOldHope

todd said:


> sounds like any other place you have to pay to be at.. too many dam rules and people you have to ask permission to do anything



Is the pay the bigger issue, or the rules about fire building or structure alteration? 

What are some of the things you'd want to do there that the rules would prevent?


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## todd

I wouldn't want to do anything there, it doesn't sound like my kind of place. too many people. im all for the off grid lifestyle, or farming/ranching, but I've found when more then about 5-10 people come together in an environment long term, trouble happens.
I understand the rules are there because of the amount of people that show up, and that's the reason I wont be there. its more of an organized amusement park than a homestead.


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## AnOldHope

todd said:


> I wouldn't want to do anything there, it doesn't sound like my kind of place. too many people. im all for the off grid lifestyle, or farming/ranching, but I've found when more then about 5-10 people come together in an environment long term, trouble happens.
> I understand the rules are there because of the amount of people that show up, and that's the reason I wont be there. its more of an organized amusement park than a homestead.



By trouble, do you mean discord, or by contrast excessive hierarchy? (or both?)

My spot only has two acres, and since my model intends to use trailers/rv/5th-wheels, each guest habitat would only have about 1/8th acre. 1/2 acre is set aside for water catchers and 1/2 acre for the goats, chickens, and rabbits, so I don't think I'll have room for more than 4-6 people at any one time. 

I've been toying with the idea of doing a gathering/festival of some sort to see who shows up. Unfortunately, the Traveling Wilburys aren't returning my phone calls so I dunno what to do about music...


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## A New Name

I sure there's a few of us here with musical talent who'd enjoy getting together and playing if they were publicly, or otherwise, invited.


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## Shwillam

So I lived at black bear for about 3 months and plan on going back this spring for another 6.
I am an actual "resident" of black bear.
You have to realize that first off, NO you do NOT have to pay to be there. You have to WORK. The guidelines are old as is the website which if very rarely updated.
It's 88 acres of some of the most beautiful land you will ever experience.
All natural resources are available including fresh water and fertile soil.
All electricity is made by hydro and solar power.
Food is primarily provided by the extremely large perma-culture garden as well as the chickens, goats, and ducks on the property.
Every decision is based on consensus basis, not majority rule.
You guys should certainly go there before having ANY predisposed ideas of what it's like.
It's one of the few places in the US that is completely unique and truly follows anarchist communist ideologies.


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## Shwillam

todd said:


> I wouldn't want to do anything there, it doesn't sound like my kind of place. too many people. im all for the off grid lifestyle, or farming/ranching, but I've found when more then about 5-10 people come together in an environment long term, trouble happens.
> I understand the rules are there because of the amount of people that show up, and that's the reason I wont be there. its more of an organized amusement park than a homestead.



Are you kidding me? 
Have you ever been there? First off there's hardly more than 4-6 people there at a time, there's a lot of visitors but they only stay an hour or two. 
It's for sure not a fucking amusement park and as someone who's lived there and put a lot of work into the space that's actually kind of insulting.
It's amazing that you refuse to go there but you have SO much to say about it.


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## todd

why would I kid you? and why are you being a prick for me participating in a thread? sorry your butt hurt maybe next time I wont give my honest opinion about something someone posts?

LOL grow up, but I am sorry you got your feelings hurt. maybe instead of lashing out you can enlighten and mentor everyone about how/ why im wrong or is that not your style?


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## Matt Derrick

todd said:


> why would I kid you? and why are you being a prick for me participating in a thread? sorry your butt hurt maybe next time I wont give my honest opinion about something someone posts?
> 
> LOL grow up, but I am sorry you got your feelings hurt. maybe instead of lashing out you can enlighten and mentor everyone about how/ why im wrong or is that not your style?



To be honest your opinion seems kinda unfair and your post makes a lot of generalizations that don't seem to be based on any facts. Also, you haven't even been there, yet you sure do make a lot of assumptions...


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## Deleted member 125

@AnOldHope please upload an avatar picture.


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## AnOldHope

Bruno said:


> I sure there's a few of us here with musical talent who'd enjoy getting together and playing if they were publicly, or otherwise, invited.



Right on. One concern is I might not have the power to run heavy amps, I could maybe run a 100watt practice amp. Plus, no showlights or fog machines.

I've never hosted a show before. What's the traditional logistics for that kind of thing?


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## A New Name

No idea, I've no experience with more complicated sound set ups. Then again, I've always preferred acoustic instruments. They have something to them that feel real(er).


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## AnOldHope

Sirius said:


> So I lived at black bear for about 3 months and plan on going back this spring for another 6.
> I am an actual "resident" of black bear.
> You have to realize that first off, NO you do NOT have to pay to be there. You have to WORK. The guidelines are old as is the website which if very rarely updated.
> It's 88 acres of some of the most beautiful land you will ever experience.
> All natural resources are available including fresh water and fertile soil.
> All electricity is made by hydro and solar power.
> Food is primarily provided by the extremely large perma-culture garden as well as the chickens, goats, and ducks on the property.
> Every decision is based on consensus basis, not majority rule.
> You guys should certainly go there before having ANY predisposed ideas of what it's like.
> It's one of the few places in the US that is completely unique and truly follows anarchist communist ideologies.



Hm, so they're resident population is usually around six? I'd seen information that they had as many as forty, I can understand if that information was out dated, but why the precipitous drop in membership?

I wonder why their website is out of date, they're usually pretty easy to fix and update.

Were the rules about paying $3/day changed a long time ago, or more recently?

I wonder if I contact the email address on the site if anyone would reply. I'd be interested in knowing why the population dropped so much. 

It sounds like they have changed a lot from what is described on the website, I'll have to see if I can find any locations that are still operating a higher population. It would also be interesting to see how and why the rules changed so much. 

If you have contact information for a current resident there, that'd be cool.


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## AnOldHope

Bruno said:


> No idea, I've no experience with more complicated sound set ups. Then again, I've always preferred acoustic instruments. They have something to them that feel real(er).



Well, since the First Annual Whatever-Its-Called show would probably draw a very small crowd, I guess there's no need for a big sound setup. Acoustics in the desert seem like they'd work fine. You think anybody would know Small Time Blues by Pete Droge? 

If you and/or some folks you know would like to play, let me know and we'll see if we can find out if there would be an audience willing to make the trek out here, we can try to figure out a date.

I've got wifi internet, 1160 watts of power, and 500 gallons of water. If the show winds up being a few months out, I should have a trailer or two if anybody wants to hang out overnight. 

Figure something like BYOB, potluck for food (although I'll have some freeze dried veggie stuff available), 420 friendly, no hard drugs, no bonfires (we're in sight of the highway so we'd have fire service aircraft and sirens soon after), non-violence, leave if the proprietor asks (and if not, we'd have to have the cops come out)? 

We won't charge since this wouldn't really be a concert, more like a private party on private land. 

Let me know if you'd be interested in playing. 

Thanks!


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## DrewSTNY

The rules/guidelines/values sounds fairly common sense, if a bit harshly worded. It's a shame that people who wish to live communally have to publish such harsh statements; however, I guess if you never put your expectations out there for people to know about, then you are to blame when they come and mess up your piece of paradise.


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## AnOldHope

DrewSTNY said:


> The rules/guidelines/values sounds fairly common sense, if a bit harshly worded. It's a shame that people who wish to live communally have to publish such harsh statements; however, I guess if you never put your expectations out there for people to know about, then you are to blame when they come and mess up your piece of paradise.



I read some guidelines for East Jesus out at Slabs, if I recall there was something about shotguns for people who leave cigarette butts lying around, and they will "know" if you don't make the $10 donation..


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## Shwillam

todd said:


> why would I kid you? and why are you being a prick for me participating in a thread? sorry your butt hurt maybe next time I wont give my honest opinion about something someone posts?
> 
> LOL grow up, but I am sorry you got your feelings hurt. maybe instead of lashing out you can enlighten and mentor everyone about how/ why im wrong or is that not your style?



Well it seems you sir are the one that's butt hurt.
I just find it hard to believe you can give an honest opinion about somewhere you've never been, and I was just honestly expressing how, being a member of that very amazing community, found your view very insulting as I have put my heart and soul into The Ranch. As have many others that I care a great deal about.
I would prefer not to "enlighten" or "mentor" anybody. I am in no place to do so. If anything I could use some mentors myself. 
I would greatly encourage you to go to Black Bear. It very well may change your life as it did mine.
I'd hate to see anyone rob themselves of going to such an amazing and unique place. That's why perhaps I "lashed out." 
I feel you're allowing yourself to undersell the place when it could in my humble opinion be the most influencial piece of land and community that many will ever stumble upon. 
It may not be this way for everybody but it's been such an impact on me and everyone I've ever known to visit or live there that I suppose I have a bit of a personal attachment and thus become defensive of it.


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## Shwillam

AnOldHope said:


> Hm, so they're resident population is usually around six? I'd seen information that they had as many as forty, I can understand if that information was out dated, but why the precipitous drop in membership?
> 
> I wonder why their website is out of date, they're usually pretty easy to fix and update.
> 
> Were the rules about paying $3/day changed a long time ago, or more recently?
> 
> I wonder if I contact the email address on the site if anyone would reply. I'd be interested in knowing why the population dropped so much.
> 
> It sounds like they have changed a lot from what is described on the website, I'll have to see if I can find any locations that are still operating a higher population. It would also be interesting to see how and why the rules changed so much.
> 
> If you have contact information for a current resident there, that'd be cool.



The number of 40 may be an average of year round population, but it's been years since the constant population was anymore than 15.
The drop simply is a trend that's happened since Black Bear started. It'll more than likely going to increase again in a few years.

The website is out of date because in the last 3 years more primitive anarchists have come throu, and they elimanted the wi-fi and hardlines. Theirs no way to communicate inside of Black Bear other than mail. Which is 1.5 hours away on dangerous mountin roads. It's truly secluded.

The monetrary "rules" as all other what are called "guidelines" at BBR are purely suggestions and requests to keep the community going. You're expected, if you live there, to contribute as much as you can to the commune. However I've never once heard of this "$3" guideline.

The email that is run by Nigh on their website will EVENTUALLY reply but a quicker response will come in letter form throu the mail. I can give you (or anyone else) the address and PO box at request. PM me.

I can give you contact to all the residences there via the PO box for the commune @AnOldHope PM me for it.

The "rules" change via the current community members and the ever changing autonomous choices they make as a community. They have no laws, only fluid "natural laws"
They are very active in anarchist practice


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## AnOldHope

Sirius said:


> The number of 40 may be an average of year round population, but it's been years since the constant population was anymore than 15.
> The drop simply is a trend that's happened since Black Bear started. It'll more than likely going to increase again in a few years.
> 
> The website is out of date because in the last 3 years more primitive anarchists have come throu, and they elimanted the wi-fi and hardlines. Theirs no way to communicate inside of Black Bear other than mail. Which is 1.5 hours away on dangerous mountin roads. It's truly secluded.
> 
> The monetrary "rules" as all other what are called "guidelines" at BBR are purely suggestions and requests to keep the community going. You're expected, if you live there, to contribute as much as you can to be commune. However I've never once heard of this "$3" guideline.
> 
> The email that is run by Nigh on their website will EVENTUALLY reply but a quicker response will come in letter form throu the mail. I can give you (or anyone else) the address and PO box at request. PM me.
> 
> I can give you contact to all the residences there via the PO box for the commune @AnOldHope PM me for it.
> 
> The "rules" change via the current community members and the ever changing autonomous choices they make as a community. They have no laws, only fluid "natural laws"
> They are very active in anarchist practice



Hmm, seems they are now on a different page than what I'm looking to get information about. The $3 guideline is on there website, it sounds like it was put up by people who are no longer there? 

This is good information, though, I will see if I can find contact with the previous people who put up the website to learn about what happened with all of that. 

Probably would be a good idea for somebody to update or take down the website. If anybody has contact information for the people who were there three years ago, I'd be interested in learning about what happened with the situation reflected at the time the website was current. 

Thanks!


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## Shwillam

http://blackbearranch.org Has not been active since 2009. I believe the last time it was even truly acknowledged was 2012.
There was a VERY different group of people there at that time.
The ideologies at the ranch have changed many times since its start.
There have even been The Black Panthers leaders there who created a para-military camp, baby worshiping Christian cults, and a variety of radical leftist thinkers that have occupied the free land.


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## DrewSTNY

People should learn how to communicate.



> Do – Be welcoming, peaceful, kind and friendly to everyone, animals and land.
> Don’t – Be cruel, abusive or violent to anyone, animals or land
> Don’t – Endanger or harm any fruit trees, structures or land.
> Don’t – leave trash, we have a strict policy on “bring it in bring it out”, This includes vehicles!
> Don’t – touch the systems, electrical, water etc. without a resident’s assistance
> Do – Learn about fire safety (see fire safety guide)
> Don’t – Make fires without resident permission.
> Do – Get permission from the community, beneficiaries and a trustee, before adding or destroying structures.
> Don’t – add or destroy any structures without going through a process which includes residents, beneficiaries and trustees
> Don’t – take away or bring animals onto the land without going through an acceptance process from the residents, beneficiaries and trustees.
> Don’t – grow or distribute any form of illegal drugs; marijuana, opiates, meth etc.
> Don’t– have disruptive addictive habits; alcoholism, drug addictions etc.
> Don’t – Bring your gun.
> Do – Live communally.
> Do- Must maintain restaurant like hygiene in all food, shower and outhouse areas.
> Don’t- Hunt on property.
> Don’t – be prejudice of race, color, creed, age , or sexual
> preference.



I could handle something like -

Welcome to hour home, we are happy that you are here; however, please, respect the property and the residents who live here. At BBR we believe that all things deserve kindness and respect. This includes our human residents as well as our non-human residents, the beautiful gardens, orchars and forest. To make your stay more enjoyable, please abide by the following guidelines:


Treat each other with love and repect regardless of race, color, creed, sexual preference or expression
This is an intentional community, we operate with consensus. Please, talk to us about your great ideas for buildings, gardens, or other structures so that we can decide as a group the best way forward.
Before building any fires, please be sure to check with one of the stewards who will be happy to show you when and where it is appropriate to have a fire on the property. We are all fire bugs at heart; however, we want to make sure that everyone has a safe and enjoyable experience.
Please, conserve water and electricity. If you wish to learn more about the systems we have built, see one of the stewards and they will be happy to give you a tour if they are able.
We love all animals and want them around so that we can learn from them. We do not allow hunting on the property.
We really love our furry companions and yours too; however, before bringing in new non-human residents, they need to be trained properly. If you cannot live without your furry companion, you must keep them leashed at all times for their safety as well as the safety of the other animals on the property.
We love tools - who doesn't - however, please do not bring any guns on to the property.
We love to party, but many of us have overcome addictions. Please, refrain from bringing drugs and alcohol onto the property.
We love to eat good food, please keep the kitchen, dining room, and bathrooms clean. If you notice an area is dirty, please lend a hand and clean it up.

The whole DO/DON'T list makes me feel like I'm in church or something.


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## Shwillam

^Your version is honestly how it operates most of the time


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## AnOldHope

DrewSTNY said:


> People should learn how to communicate.
> 
> 
> 
> I could handle something like -
> 
> Welcome to hour home, we are happy that you are here; however, please, respect the property and the residents who live here. At BBR we believe that all things deserve kindness and respect. This includes our human residents as well as our non-human residents, the beautiful gardens, orchars and forest. To make your stay more enjoyable, please abide by the following guidelines:
> 
> 
> Treat each other with love and repect regardless of race, color, creed, sexual preference or expression
> This is an intentional community, we operate with consensus. Please, talk to us about your great ideas for buildings, gardens, or other structures so that we can decide as a group the best way forward.
> Before building any fires, please be sure to check with one of the stewards who will be happy to show you when and where it is appropriate to have a fire on the property. We are all fire bugs at heart; however, we want to make sure that everyone has a safe and enjoyable experience.
> Please, conserve water and electricity. If you wish to learn more about the systems we have built, see one of the stewards and they will be happy to give you a tour if they are able.
> We love all animals and want them around so that we can learn from them. We do not allow hunting on the property.
> We really love our furry companions and yours too; however, before bringing in new non-human residents, they need to be trained properly. If you cannot live without your furry companion, you must keep them leashed at all times for their safety as well as the safety of the other animals on the property.
> We love tools - who doesn't - however, please do not bring any guns on to the property.
> We love to party, but many of us have overcome addictions. Please, refrain from bringing drugs and alcohol onto the property.
> We love to eat good food, please keep the kitchen, dining room, and bathrooms clean. If you notice an area is dirty, please lend a hand and clean it up.
> 
> The whole DO/DON'T list makes me feel like I'm in church or something.



What do they do when someone plays with the solar or water systems anyway, declines to follow the suggestions, and doesn't agree or behave in accordance with the consensus? 

What if somebody gets really drunk, continues to get really drunk, starts fires because they believe the know how and don't think anyone has the right to tell them otherwise, etc?

It seems like the people who would understand the above rules wouldn't really need a list of them.

I do find it interesting that the turnover at Black Bear (at least over the course of its existence) seems very high. If I'm following, the current model has existed about three years, and with about 6 or so ongoing residents? 

I wonder why the previous incarnations didn't continue on. Of course, life changes, nature changes, etc, but I would like to find and learn about a model that has lasted decades in a stable and ongoing form.


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## DrewSTNY

Sirius said:


> ^Your version is honestly how it operates most of the time



That's what I was hoping. I checked the website and found the statement about how many chickens, rabbits, and other animals they ahve lost over the years because of visitors' pets and figured that was the reason behind some of the statements.

I know people tend toward brief statements because of whatever pressures they are under at the time, but good, positive expectations are way better than a list of DON'Ts.

I have never really considered myself an anarchist (even though I really hate the government and the banks), but a lot of what I am reading on the site resonates. Being a child of the 70's though, the idea of a commune sounds too much like hippie talk. I guess I got that from my parents. The new "intentional community" has a better ring to me even if it is describing the same thing.


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## AnOldHope

Sirius said:


> http://blackbearranch.org Has not been active since 2009. I believe the last time it was even truly acknowledged was 2012.
> There was a VERY different group of people there at that time.
> The ideologies at the ranch have changed many times since its start.
> There have even been The Black Panthers leaders there who created a para-military camp, baby worshiping Christian cults, and a variety of radical leftist thinkers that have occupied the free land.



I wonder how hard it would be to find the people from 2009. 

Although what would be really cool would be to host some Black Panthers. 

"Hey, folks. So, remember when you were trying to tell everyone that the government was deliberately running drugs and using the war on drugs to destroy the black community and everybody laughed? Now that its more or less understood that the government actually did and does do that, I'd just like to say.....shit, sorry 'bout that."


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## DrewSTNY

AnOldHope said:


> What do they do when someone plays with the solar or water systems anyway, declines to follow the suggestions, and doesn't agree or behave in accordance with the consensus?
> 
> What if somebody gets really drunk, continues to get really drunk, starts fires because they believe the know how and don't think anyone has the right to tell them otherwise, etc?
> 
> It seems like the people who would understand the above rules wouldn't really need a list of them.
> 
> I do find it interesting that the turnover at Black Bear (at least over the course of its existence) seems very high. If I'm following, the current model has existed about three years, and with about 6 or so ongoing residents?
> 
> I wonder why the previous incarnations didn't continue on. Of course, life changes, nature changes, etc, but I would like to find and learn about a model that has lasted decades in a stable and ongoing form.



The answers to your questions lie in being intentional about the community. If someone is doing those things, everyone from the community has a hand in dealing with them, even if it means taking them off the property. 

Of course, removal is not the first step, but the last if you are really trying to live as a community/commune. By living with the intention to be a community, you believe that you are each connected to one other as well as the land you are living on. You can not ignore someone's bad behavior because it could serious injure or kill that person or everyone in the commune.


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## Shwillam

AnOldHope said:


> What do they do when someone plays with the solar or water systems anyway, declines to follow the suggestions, and doesn't agree or behave in accordance with the consensus?
> 
> What if somebody gets really drunk, continues to get really drunk, starts fires because they believe the know how and don't think anyone has the right to tell them otherwise, etc?
> 
> It seems like the people who would understand the above rules wouldn't really need a list of them.
> 
> I do find it interesting that the turnover at Black Bear (at least over the course of its existence) seems very high. If I'm following, the current model has existed about three years, and with about 6 or so ongoing residents?
> 
> I wonder why the previous incarnations didn't continue on. Of course, life changes, nature changes, etc, but I would like to find and learn about a model that has lasted decades in a stable and ongoing form.



They are asked to leave. The idea is they rely on the basic emotion that if everyone in the community is actively asking you to leave, they hardly if ever have to impose actual authority or physical force to encourage someone to leave, upholding anarchist philosophy and still having a safe, stable, successful community. 

Refer to paragraph 1.

That's not necessarily true, many people have no idea what it's like to live in a place that you are truly off the grid as much as I believe possible in the United States. Having a starting point in understanding the basics of how a community so different than typical society works was very helpful for me. 

Of course it is, most people (including myself) couldn't make it there the first time around. I still don't plan on wintering there this second time around living there. It's the hardest I've ever worked in my life. There's a FUCK ton to do just to survive. You go hungry, cold, lonely, isolated. Black Bear is no fucking joke, and that's why when the other guy called it an "amusement park" made such an impact on me. It's a hardcore place. But goddamn, it's fucking paradise.


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## Shwillam

AnOldHope said:


> I wonder how hard it would be to find the people from 2009.
> 
> Although what would be really cool would be to host some Black Panthers.
> 
> "Hey, folks. So, remember when you were trying to tell everyone that the government was deliberately running drugs and using the war on drugs to destroy the black community and everybody laughed? Now that its more or less understood that the government actually did and does do that, I'd just like to say.....shit, sorry 'bout that."



Nigh and Scott have been there for years.

It actually ended very very badly. The Panthers were asked to leave, who responded by sticking a rifle in one of the members faces. No one got hurt and they left the next day.


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## AnOldHope

Sirius said:


> They are asked to leave. The idea is they rely on the basic emotion that if everyone in the community is actively asking you to leave, they hardly if ever have to impose actual authority or physical force to encourage someone to leave, upholding anarchist philosophy and still having a safe, stable, successful community.
> 
> Refer to paragraph 1.
> 
> That's not necessarily true, many people have no idea what it's like to live in a place that you are truly off the grid as much as I believe possible in the United States. Having a starting point in understanding the basics of how a community so different than typical society works was very helpful for me.
> 
> Of course it is, most people (including myself) couldn't make it there the first time around. I still don't plan on wintering there this second time around living there. It's the hardest I've ever worked in my life. There's a FUCK ton to do just to survive. You go hungry, cold, lonely, isolated. Black Bear is no fucking joke, and that's why when the other guy called it an "amusement park" made such an impact on me. It's a hardcore place. But goddamn, it's fucking paradise.



I'm looking for a model with a different kind of stability, it seems that Black Bear has a lot of turnover. If its current incarnation of three years fits some people, I think that's great, but what drew me to the local was the idea that it had continued on longer than that, and with more than five or six people. 

There are a lot of different ideas of community, and I don't think there's any one that fits all people. I understand a lot of people have their own view of what stability and community is, and for any given philosophy there will be as many interpretations as there are people. 

I'll try to find the folks from '09 and hear their story, maybe they're out there on the interwebs somewhere. 

Thanks!


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## AnOldHope

Sirius said:


> Nigh and Scott have been there for years.
> 
> It actually ended very very badly. The Panthers were asked to leave, who responded by sticking a rifle in one of the members faces. No one got hurt and they left the next day.



How many years? Ten or more?


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## Shwillam

I think that's natural for any place that attracts nomads. That's the wonderful thing about communities. You can enter and leave them as you wish, while societies and nations tend to dominate and regulate the way vast populations are operated. 

Write the ranch, I'll PM you the currently active PO box, the one listed on the website is not correct. 
There are people that have been there since 2008 living there currently


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## AnOldHope

Sirius said:


> I think that's natural for any place that attracts nomads. That's the wonderful thing about communities. You can enter and leave them as you wish, while societies and nations tend to dominate and regulate the way vast populations are operated.
> 
> Write the ranch, I'll PM you the currently active PO box, the one listed on the website is not correct.
> There are people that have been there since 2008 living there currently



Hm, nobody before that?


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## Shwillam

Not that I know of at the moment


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## AnOldHope

Sirius said:


> Not that I know of at the moment



Cool, thanks anyway.


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## A New Name

AnOldHope said:


> What do they do when someone plays with the solar or water systems anyway, declines to follow the suggestions, and doesn't agree or behave in accordance with the consensus?
> 
> What if somebody gets really drunk, continues to get really drunk, starts fires because they believe the know how and don't think anyone has the right to tell them otherwise, etc?
> 
> It seems like the people who would understand the above rules wouldn't really need a list of them.
> 
> I do find it interesting that the turnover at Black Bear (at least over the course of its existence) seems very high. If I'm following, the current model has existed about three years, and with about 6 or so ongoing residents?
> 
> I wonder why the previous incarnations didn't continue on. Of course, life changes, nature changes, etc, but I would like to find and learn about a model that has lasted decades in a stable and ongoing form.


http://bussanavecchia.free.fr/
Europe does it better. (harhar)


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## todd

Matt Derrick said:


> To be honest your opinion seems kinda unfair and your post makes a lot of generalizations that don't seem to be based on any facts. Also, you haven't even been there, yet you sure do make a lot of assumptions...



I thought I was giving my opinion to the OP's question.. " What percentage of people do the Black Bear Ranch rules work for?" What do you all think? That was the OP's reason for starting the thread right?

so I read whats posted in the first thread... check the website hes posted... and reply to his question. I told him what I think.. and get bashed for it.
his question wasn't * what does everyone "KNOW" about this place. it was "THINK"


Meh, it might be a nice place to visit. or not, who knows. I believe the theory is admirable and a lot can be learned if one wants to try to do the same thing on their own place.


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## Matt Derrick

todd said:


> I thought I was giving my opinion to the OP's question.. " What percentage of people do the Black Bear Ranch rules work for?" What do you all think? That was the OP's reason for starting the thread right?



Fair enough, but that still doesn't change that you're making a lot of assumptions in your posts without ever having been there.


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## deleted user

We should all get over it and move on to more useful matters, don't you guys think?

Which, speaking of, OP, do you need any assistance doing anything with your build you have going? I am currently looking around for projects that could be one day considered a home, so long as some basic ideological tenets are met. (basically simple communism/anarchism)


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## todd

anoldhope. is your place easy to get in and out of, like close to a highway?


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## AnOldHope

moonwalker said:


> We should all get over it and move on to more useful matters, don't you guys think?
> 
> Which, speaking of, OP, do you need any assistance doing anything with your build you have going? I am currently looking around for projects that could be one day considered a home, so long as some basic ideological tenets are met. (basically simple communism/anarchism)



The next build will be the prototype water catcher, I'll have the money for the materials in about two weeks (250 gallon tote, some lumber and the tarp). I'd be willing to put $100 and free camping on my land if somebody was interested in helping (ride with me in my F250 to get the tote and lumber, positioning the tote, small wooden structure to lift the far side of the tote).

You'll have to educate me on simple communism/anarchism, but a couple things that might be issues:

a) I don't charge people to camp on my land, but it needs to be understood its my land. If somebody gets violent, needlessly aggressive, etc, they'd need to go. I know anarchists aren't big on private property, but I am. Its my land, I don't give orders, I pay cash for honest labor assistance, but if I say somebody needs to go, they need to go. 

b) I'm not looking to violently fight the government, I believe in peaceful non-violent reform, or if necessary, to stay out in the wastelands if things collapse and peek my head out if/when there's some semblance of order. If you have or want to violently fight the govt, the cops, or anyone else, this isn't the place. 

c) Politically I'm a Bernie Sanders supporter, I think Northern Europe has the right idea, I think our current administration is on a racist and authoritarian fascist path. 

d) I believe in taking turns with the music and the movies. I also believe that on two acres, if somebody wants to go to their own space and do their own shit, that's fine with me. But if your shit interferes with somebody else's shit (playing loud music so others can't sleep, etc), you'd need to get some headphones or roll out. 

e) I have no problem with LGBT, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever, as long as you can coexist peacefully with others. 

f) No hard drugs.

g) I have a dog, she's not a year old yet, and she's very emotionally needy, she jumps up, wants to sit in your lap, etc. When I have guests I keep her in the fenced section around my RV.

Main problem is the roads, they're dogshit, I've had to have the exhaust on my truck welded back up twice. If you have a high clearance vehicle with four wheel drive, you should be okay. If you don't have a truck, I can ride you in from Kingman, and when you go, I"ll give you a ride back up to Kingman. 

If somebody could work with the above and no problems develop, I'd have no problem with letting such a person camp as long as they need on my land, and I've been looking at getting a cheap travel trailer for guests, but that's a month or two out. 

Thanks.


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## AnOldHope

todd said:


> anoldhope. is your place easy to get in and out of, like close to a highway?



I'm only two miles from a highway, but the washes out here fuck the roads to shit. I've had to have the exhaust on my truck welded back up twice. If you don't have a vehicle, I can pick you up in Kingman or other place nearby. To get to the highway by vehicle is a circuitous route through really shit roads, about twenty minutes of bumping around like fucking a two stroke engine with bathtub whiskey for gas. 

To hike in from the frontage road by foot is an hour or less.


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## DrewSTNY

Sounds like an awesome place. Looking forward to hearing more about how you develop it to your tastes.

Maybe someday we will get it that way.


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## AnOldHope

DrewSTNY said:


> Sounds like an awesome place. Looking forward to hearing more about how you develop it to your tastes.
> 
> Maybe someday we will get it that way.



Thanks. The views are nice. Summers are wicked vicious hot, and the winters can have overnight lows below freezing but not by much. I've got the power shed up (still need to seal the roof), and I"ve put a little metal camp stove in there (need to cut out the hole for the chimney, so I'll do that before next winter).

For summers, an array of USB fans keep reasonably cool, but for those 120F spikes, its often just sleeping under the fans from 10:00am to 3:00 pm (unless you were born on Tattooine and you dig that shit, more power to you). 

Its coming together, slowly. Upgraded the water storage and added a baby fridge today. Lost a 180 watt panel to wind last week, but still have 1,160 watts. Just added 200 amp hours of battery bank, waiting on some connecting wires to come in.

Found a $1,200 trailer up in Vegas my ex was going to bring down for me, but somebody ninja'd me and grabbed it. Then found a $100 baby travel trailer up in Golden Valley, but they never called me back. 

I don't suppose it will ever be exactly how I want it (I had planned to have the outdoor theater up by now, going to build a 8ft x 16ft concrete block wall, paint it gloss white, get a $500 digital projector to mount on the roof of the power shed inside a cupola, and a bunch of old recliners and sofas for the seats, watch movies under the night sky). That keeps getting pushed out.

Then rabbits, then chickens, then goats, and if the water catchers work, adopt a burro from the state. 

We'll see. I'll know by next year how much of that I'll have made into reality.


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## deleted user

AnOldHope said:


> The next build will be the prototype water catcher, I'll have the money for the materials in about two weeks (250 gallon tote, some lumber and the tarp). I'd be willing to put $100 and free camping on my land if somebody was interested in helping (ride with me in my F250 to get the tote and lumber, positioning the tote, small wooden structure to lift the far side of the tote).
> 
> You'll have to educate me on simple communism/anarchism, but a couple things that might be issues:
> 
> a) I don't charge people to camp on my land, but it needs to be understood its my land. If somebody gets violent, needlessly aggressive, etc, they'd need to go. I know anarchists aren't big on private property, but I am. Its my land, I don't give orders, I pay cash for honest labor assistance, but if I say somebody needs to go, they need to go.
> 
> b) I'm not looking to violently fight the government, I believe in peaceful non-violent reform, or if necessary, to stay out in the wastelands if things collapse and peek my head out if/when there's some semblance of order. If you have or want to violently fight the govt, the cops, or anyone else, this isn't the place.
> 
> c) Politically I'm a Bernie Sanders supporter, I think Northern Europe has the right idea, I think our current administration is on a racist and authoritarian fascist path.
> 
> d) I believe in taking turns with the music and the movies. I also believe that on two acres, if somebody wants to go to their own space and do their own shit, that's fine with me. But if your shit interferes with somebody else's shit (playing loud music so others can't sleep, etc), you'd need to get some headphones or roll out.
> 
> e) I have no problem with LGBT, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever, as long as you can coexist peacefully with others.
> 
> f) No hard drugs.
> 
> g) I have a dog, she's not a year old yet, and she's very emotionally needy, she jumps up, wants to sit in your lap, etc. When I have guests I keep her in the fenced section around my RV.
> 
> Main problem is the roads, they're dogshit, I've had to have the exhaust on my truck welded back up twice. If you have a high clearance vehicle with four wheel drive, you should be okay. If you don't have a truck, I can ride you in from Kingman, and when you go, I"ll give you a ride back up to Kingman.
> 
> If somebody could work with the above and no problems develop, I'd have no problem with letting such a person camp as long as they need on my land, and I've been looking at getting a cheap travel trailer for guests, but that's a month or two out.
> 
> Thanks.



My friend, you described EXACTLY what I am looking for. (and to be honest, I use the terms as scapegoats, since I don't know how to describe what I want out of it; basic liberties, in essence.)
Which, actually, not that I am too focused on it anymore (though still interested), I was feelin' the Bern. I tend to vote for the more libertarian-esque ideals. I am very mellow about everything, I suppose. I understand that there is time for work, time for play, and time for rest.


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## RobHASboots

♧


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## black

@AnOldHope i am very interested in your project. good on ya. 

i would love begin something akin to that with An-Com values as a generally accepted tenet, which basically just means, share food, work hard, make decisions only together, and protect eachother, all while utilizing money only when essential to continue the community's existence


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## Beegod Santana

I've lived in a bunch of off the grid spots in my life with as many as 20 other people to as little as none. In my experience, having a rule list is only necessary when you have more than 5 people and really only necessary if at least one of those people isn't pulling their end. Most people I know who've spent extended periods of time off the grid wouldn't be too put off by that list, but the whole no weed, guns or alcohol is definitely gonna keep some people away. A lot of those people you probably don't want out there, but some of them are also gonna be extremely effective people... so your call. Also, the rules are absolutely meaningless unless someone's willing to be the land nazi and shove em down everybody's throat. That person also has to be someone who seems like they're willing to act to defend their land, otherwise eventually some vampire is just gonna suck you dry.


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## Billy Cougar White

Another good commune to research for inspiration is "total loss farm" they started in the mid 60s. And are still around, including 2 original members. They wrote a book back in the 70s called "home cooking, life on total loss farm"


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## AnOldHope

black said:


> @AnOldHope i am very interested in your project. good on ya.
> 
> i would love begin something akin to that with An-Com values as a generally accepted tenet, which basically just means, share food, work hard, make decisions only together, and protect eachother, all while utilizing money only when essential to continue the community's existence



Unfortunately there are some incompatibilities with my project with An-Com values, but I can see where a group that all shared those and pursued it that way could be successful (although if they want to move towards complete self sufficiency, my area likely lacks the water for crops to be completely self sufficient, I'll have enough (by haul and/or catcher) for rabbits, chickens, and a few goats, but probably not crops)


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## AnOldHope

Beegod Santana said:


> I've lived in a bunch of off the grid spots in my life with as many as 20 other people to as little as none. In my experience, having a rule list is only necessary when you have more than 5 people and really only necessary if at least one of those people isn't pulling their end. Most people I know who've spent extended periods of time off the grid wouldn't be too put off by that list, but the whole no weed, guns or alcohol is definitely gonna keep some people away. A lot of those people you probably don't want out there, but some of them are also gonna be extremely effective people... so your call. Also, the rules are absolutely meaningless unless someone's willing to be the land nazi and shove em down everybody's throat. That person also has to be someone who seems like they're willing to act to defend their land, otherwise eventually some vampire is just gonna suck you dry.



Yeah, I think one of the big limiters is going to be that any who come would be guests and would need to leave without argument if I asked them to, whether they agree with my reason or not, .and if they didn't the cops would have to come out. To avoid that necessity, it would have to be understood up front that if I ask somebody to go, they gotta go. ("Kick rocks" is the phrase I've heard).

That fact alone would likely dissuade as much as 90% or more of people, but with all the people out there, I'm hoping to find some who can live with that.

I guess the setup would be more in the direction of a quasi-libertarian co-op, each has their own things, their own money, etc, but to minimize mutual expenses we cooperate in a way that benefits both, which in some instances will involve money and be quantifiable (for example, I'd pay if people were doing labor that improves the land, which is solely mine, and thus they'd deserve something in exchange. Similarly if somebody helped with the animals, they could sell some of the goats milk to local soap making companies, etc.)

ic.org seems to have taken a permashit on its "seeking commune" ads, and they were never very prolific, I'm still trying to figure out how to get the word out. 

I don't mind weed, an AZ medical card is fairly straightforward to get, and as far as alcohol, as long as the person has it under control (doesn't get loud, belligerent, aggressive, sick, etc due to drinking, doesn't become dangerously ill or irrational if they can't get it, etc) I'd have no problem with it. 

This idea of "extremely effective people" is compelling to me, is it okay to ask you to elaborate?


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## Beegod Santana

I mean people who already have the skills to make it off the grid and aren't afraid to put em to use. People with farming, mechanical and electrical experience who aren't gonna start a forest fire and know how to set the solar back up after a storm. Sure there's people out there like that who are sober and hate guns, but most that I've met over the years tend to love a beer, a joint, or to shoot off a few rounds in the evening. I would never encourage you to host someone who's chasing self destruction however.


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## creature

This is a good thread..
hella lot more info & backgreound than i evere got back in '09 or '10..

@Sirius , thank you.
yer a fucking pain, but yer beautriufull & hardcore..

all i ever got back then was a dead webpage & a refusal to answer some easy fucking questionms about how to get the fuck in..

interestingly, this correlates to *other* 'anarcho-primative' crap that i've both run across & actually been part of..

when you live in a hand to mouth enviornment.. where chopping wood for a -15 degree winter is required a few months ahead of time, or trying to grow stuff in crappy soil to sell for a couple of months before frost kills everything, & keep the goddamned coyotes away from the chickens & turkeys..

that's hard crap..

probably harder ar BB, than where i've been, actually..

but i understand..

nonetheless, a lot of shit goes soutrh because the follks who hate rules way too often hate self-discipline, too..

& self-discipline is a way harder & much different animal than "having the balls to deal with what you are given"..

self discipline is what ultimatelty makes communiality possible, hence my bitching on the other thread..

sounds like history & adventure, out there..
maybe i'll give it another shot..

if you'll have me, if/when the potential path becomes...

pecans,

C


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## dumpster harpy

Private property. Bernie Sanders. Libertarian. Calling the cops.

What?


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