# Cisgender Privilege Checklist



## rideitlikeyoustoleit

This checklist is pretty much for people trying to explain to others that they are privileged, cause you can send them here and they can see for themselves. I've reposted it below, but included the link as well. Enjoy.

http://takesupspace.wordpress.com/cis-privilege-checklist/

Cis Privilege Checklist
The Cisgender/Cissexual Privilege Checklist
Kudos to Peggy McIntosh for her White Privilege Checklist, inspirer of this list and all-around rad resource worth reading more than once. An older version of the cis privilege checklist is available at T-Vox.

Very frequently people like to direct other people to privilege checklists in order to “prove” to them the reality of that privilege. If that’s why someone sent you here, you have my sympathy–it’s obnoxious, isn’t it? So, before you read this list, check out some caveats, explanations, and definitions I’ve set up; they might make it a bit easier for you to read from the right headspace, and easier to understand.

So, for everyone: don’t quibble with privilege lists. If you read them from a standpoint of wanting to deny your privilege, you’ll come out having successfully denied it but learning nothing. Read sympathetically and think about it. If there’s something you want to refine, or make better, add, or something you want clarified, let me know. This list is subject to continual revision without notice.

I expect non-discrimination acts that apply to me to cover the most prevalent vectors of discrimination against me. I expect laws banning the creation of a hostile work environment will ban the use of offensive language about me.
I expect my government-issued identification to accurately represent who I am.
If my identification does not, I expect to be able to remedy this quickly and easily, without added expense, undue delay, arbitrary criteria, or a necessity to present evidence or medical documents. I expect change procedures/criteria to be clearly outlined in readily-available documentation, and for those procedures/criteria to be followed consistently, independent of the political beliefs and gender, racial, etc prejudices of individuals serving me.
I expect all my forms of identification to “match”—to display the same value in any fields held in common. If they do not I expect to be just fine, anyway.
My identification does not reveal private information that I may not want others to know.
I expect my private medical information to remain private if I am attempting to non-healthcare-related government services, or if I am involved in a lawsuit/criminal investigation that does not involve healthcare. If the government is making decisions based on my medical history, I expect the persons making the decisions to be medical professionals grounded in the relevant medical literature.
I expect access to healthcare.
I cannot be denied health insurance on the basis of my gender.
I expect that I will not be denied medical treatment by a doctor on the basis of my gender.
I expect that if I am treated inappropriately by a doctor, my concerns will be taken seriously, and I will be able to find another doctor who will treat me appropriately.
Treatments which are medically necessary for me are generally covered by insurance.
Treatments which permanently or semi-permanently change my body are available to me immediately, based on my informed consent, ability to pay, and, if applicable, medical need.
If I am accessing medical treatment, my informed consent is verified in, at most, a one-hour consult made before the beginning of treatment.
I expect that medical professionals competent to treat my conditions exist outside of major cities, and in proportion to the demand for them. I expect no undue delay in access to routine medical services, and for such services to be available (at least) five days a week.
I expect that the specialists in medical conditions affecting me have received formal training about them, and are abreast of current medical developments in the subject.
I expect that there exists formal training about medical conditions affecting me.
I expect that medical therapies offered to me have been the subject of rigorous medical studies & approval processes.
I expect that medical studies are being done to improve & approve treatments available for people with my conditions.
I expect that my access to medical treatment that I need and can afford will not be affected by:
My sex life
How much, how often, and with how many people I enjoy sex
Whether or not I am sexually stimulated by a mode of dress
What sex acts I enjoy
The gender(s) I am sexually attracted to
The story I tell about my condition
My adherence to gender roles
The length of time I have wanted treatment
My desire for a different, but related, medical treatment
My definition of my gender
The gender in which I live
My age, independent of parental consent
Local politics
Subconscious racial prejudice
The opinion of a therapist (other than the medical provider)
My willingness to accept side effects which could be avoided by lower dosages
My willingness to reveal my private medical information to the government, family members, employers, and friends
I expect that medical care will be crafted to suit my own particular needs. I expect to be able to access treatment A without accessing treatment B, if treatment B will do nothing to advance my particular needs.
I expect that I will be able to access medical care without lying.
Accessing respectful STD testing and reproductive care is (relatively) emotionally and logistically easy for me.
There is information about the prevalence of HIV/AIDS and other diseases in my community.
Clothing works for me, more or less.
I am a size and shape for which clothes I feel comfortable wearing are commonly made
There are clothes designed with bodies like mine in mind.
If I am unable to find clothing that fits me well, I will still feel safe, and recognizable as my gender
If I have a restriction on what clothing I will buy (e.g. vegan, allergy, non sweatshop), I can expect that specialty stores will have them in my size/shape.
I expect my gender to not unduly affect my ability to travel internationally.
My gender presentation is legal in all countries.
I expect that information on a country relevant to travelers of my gender will be readily available, and supplied to me by travel guides, travel agents, and study abroad officials.
I expect that a visa and passport will be sufficient documentation for me to enter any country, however difficult these may be to obtain.
I expect that my documentation will decrease suspicion about me.
Information important for me to keep private will not be revealed by:
Pictures from my childhood
My identification
My diploma, transcript, or other educational document
The language used to refer to me
Greetings
Pronouns
Gendered relationship words (e.g. daughter, boyfriend*, father)
My legal name or previous name
My voice
Having a cold
Coughing, sneezing, yelling
Singing
Seeing me naked
Menstrual blood stains
Pregnancy (except re: how I/my partner got sperm in hir body)
My face and neck
Greetings, missives from people/organizations I have not contacted recently
Perception/acceptance of my gender is generally independent of:
Anything mentioned in 8.*
My clothing choices, how my clothing fits
My adherence to traditional roles of my gender (both “too much” and “too little”)
Holding sexist, sex-negative, or rape-culture beliefs
Holding feminist or sex-positive beliefs
My sexual choices/desires
With whom? (gender, number)
Frequency
Circumstance (marriage, love, one-night-stand)
What (e.g. penetrating/enveloping, fetishes, dominance)
Being assertive, aggressive, or passive
Being in a position of power
Being intellectual or not
My dietary habits
My weight
My height
My occupation
My musical taste
My hairstyle
My hobbies
Wanting gendered things/actions labeled “immature” or “childish”
Whether or not I have had a specific medical procedure
My willingness to risk loss of sensation in my genitals/chest
My financial resources
My willingness to accept an unknown amount of health risks
My ability to access treatment that is deliberately made hard to access (see 4.*)
Bodies like mine are represented in the media and the arts. It is easily possible for representations of my naked body to pass obscenity restrictions.
I expect the privacy of my body to be respected. I am not asked about what my genitals look like, or whether or not my breasts are real, what medical procedures I have had, etc.
Wronging me is taken seriously*
Those who wrong me are expected to know that it is hurtful, and are considered blameworthy whether or not they intended to wrong me.
I have easy access to people who understand that this wrong is not acceptable, and who will support me.
I have easy access to resources and people to educate someone who wronged me, if I am not feeling up to it.
If I am being wronged, I can expect that others who are around will notice.
I expect that a short term arrest (e.g. for protesting) will not have serious consequences.
I expect access to, and fair treatment within, sex segregated facilities
Homeless shelters
Domestic Violence shelters
Dormitories
Drug Rehabilitation
Prisons
Bathrooms
Locker rooms
Gyms
Hostels
Juvenile justice systems
Institutions and authority figures do not force me to adopt a different gender presentation, or deny me medical treatment.
Parents, foster care
Juvenile justice systems
Schools (all K-12 schools, some religious universities)
Drug rehabilitation
Nursing homes
Prisons
Hospitals/Mental Hospitals
Close relative/spouse unless otherwise specified, in the event of a medical emergency
Commonly used terminology that differentiates my gender from other genders/sexes implies that I am normal, and that I have unquestionable right to the gender/sex I identify with. The implications these terms make about my gender, my body, my sex, my biology, and my past are all acceptable to me.
The sex/gender dichotomy does not have consequences in my life.
Insistence on strict adherence to one interpretation of difference between “sex” and “gender” (if the dichotomy is used “accurately”) does not mean that different words should be used to describe me than adherence to another interpretation does (if ‘sex’ and ‘gender’ are “conflated”).
“Accurate” use of these terms, when heard by people who subconsciously “conflate” them (i.e., all people), does not imply false or offensive things about me.
“Conflated” use of these terms does not imply false or offensive things about me.
I am not categorized differently if someone categorizes by “sex” when “gender” is more relevant. (e.g. my ID will read the same thing whether it says “sex” or “gender,” no matter how the authority interprets the dichotomy; I will have the same access to “sex” segregated facilities, etc.)
I expect no medical evidence to be necessary when changing my name.
For me, there is little-to-no conflict between being recognized as a member of my gender, and resisting sexism. (see #9)
My control of my body is independent of the good will of oppressive institutions.
Recognition of my gender is independent of the good will of oppressive institutions.
My gender is acknowledged universally, immediately, and without hesitation
My birth certificate, drivers’ license, social security card, etc are correct from the moment I get them.
I have no need to establish that I am a different gender than someone already thinks I am.
I lived my childhood in a gender that felt appropriate for me at the time, and still does. I lived my childhood in the gender that I want to have lived it in.
I was trained into whatever gender was appropriate for me, and so I am prepared to live in my current gender, without having to go back and learn vital skills I was not taught when I was young.
I experienced puberty, and being an immature girl/boy, at a time in my life when there were allowances for puberty and immaturity.
My preferences for my gender have been honored my whole life, by my doctor, my parents, my teachers, my professors, my relatives, my classmates, my bosses, etc., except before I was able to state preferences, when I was forced to adopt the gender which I now inhabit.
If someone is uncertain about how I am gendered, they are likely to use criteria that will influence them to choose the gender I identify with.
I expect be referred to respectfully without stating my preferences, or even being asked, no matter where I go, how I dress, or whom I’m talking to. If this does not happen, whatever level of anger I express will be acceptable, and I will expect the offense to be immediately corrected.
Regardless of my gendered behavior as a child, or how I felt about being forced into the gender I inhabited then, if I require medical treatment to keep up an appearance that matches my gender, it will be granted immediately and without question.
I have unquestioned access to all appropriate sex-segregated facilities.
My potential lovers expect my genitals to look roughly similar to the way they do, and have accepted that before coming to bed with me.
I expect the privacy of my body to be respected.
I expect to be able to shower at public facilities such as gyms and pools.
Others accept my control over when, whether, and how I talk about any given event/period in my life, according to what meets my needs and desires best. Others accept my determination of what events and periods in my life I wish to talk about or deem significant.
My gender, and my access to gender-specific services and medical care, are upheld no matter how important or unimportant I consider that to be. Even if I consider medical treatment to maintain an appearance matching my gender to be inconsequential, it will still be available to me, covered by health insurance. Likewise, even if I find the use of the appropriately gendered language about me inconsequential, it will still be taken as a serious, unproblematic need by others.
My right to inhabit my currently chosen gender is universally considered valid, regardless of my gendered behavior as a child, or how I felt about being forced into the gender I inhabited then. If I require medical treatment to keep up an appearance that matches my gender, it will be granted immediately and without question.
If someone else thinks I’m in the wrong bathroom, I am in no danger. When (or if) people mistake my gender, there are unlikely to be serious consequences.


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## oldmanLee

So,all that huge list boils down to "I'm human,get used to it";right?


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## Kklfr

Tranny here. Ilu.


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## MoKarnagexvx

Thanks for the post! Something to always be workin on/thinkin about- we all have some sort of privilege.


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## connerR

What is this, exactly? Maybe it's just late and my brain isn't working right...but what's the point?


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## Linda/Ziggy

Wow so now I'm 'privileged' because I was born with a vagina and not had one
surgically created........
Get over your guilt.
And don't dare call me cisgendered.


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## Traveler

Can't stand this sensitivity bullshit. Basically a huge list of shit to bitch about when someone either intellectually corners you in an agument or denies you something based on their own choice(which they are entitled to, get over it).


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## Linda/Ziggy

It's all about transexuals taking over everything- The Lesbian & Gay community the 'queer' community, the womens community.
And anyone who dares to question transexualism is labelled the WORST of all oppressors anywhere in any situation.
It's all about political correctness gone mad, liberal guilt.
No you can't use my taxes/money for your unnecessary surgery............
Cisgendered is a word that has been invented to label anyone who is not
transexual - ie anyone born with a natural penis or vagina or intersex folks.

I do speak from experience and have seen how transexuals & their rabid supporters have destroyed
& taken over communities.

Of course I will be now be labelled a transphobe for questioning the transexual industry as a whole.
The medical industry making big bucks$$$$$ -the psychiatry industry making big bucks$$$, etc.....
Young Lesbian & Gay folks are now under immense pressure to become transexual..... 
in some cases being forced to become transexual (Iran & Russia) 

Of course again no one wants question any of this cause it's the 'cool trendy new thing'.
Hate yourself ? - well just cut it off ! Don't question anything !
Don't question homophobia, woman hatred, male privelege, 'masculinity & femininity' etc etc etc.........
And totally trash & destroy anyone who questions you.........


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## venusinpisces

Linda/Ziggy said:


> anyone who dares to question transexualism is labelled the WORST of all oppressors anywhere in any situation.
> It's all about political correctness gone mad, liberal guilt.
> No you can't use my taxes/money for your unnecessary surgery............
> 
> I do speak from experience and have seen how transexuals & their rabid supporters have destroyed
> & taken over communities.
> 
> Of course I will be now be labelled a transphobe for questioning the transexual industry as a whole.
> The medical industry making big bucks$$$$$ -the psychiatry industry making big bucks$$$, etc.....
> Young Lesbian & Gay folks are now under immense pressure to become transexual.....
> in some cases being forced to become transexual (Iran & Russia)
> 
> Of course again no one wants question any of this cause it's the 'cool trendy new thing'.
> Hate yourself ? - well just cut it off ! Don't question anything !
> Don't question homophobia, woman hatred, male privelege, 'masculinity & femininity' etc etc etc.........
> And totally trash & destroy anyone who questions you.........


 I agree with a lot of this. Synthetic hormones are so toxic to the body and the environment so having even more of them released into the water supply cannot be explained away as an issue of social justice. I can't completely blame trannies for being pressured into the decision to alter their bodies because our society is so hostile to anyone who deviates from gender norms. But creating a conformist culture that encourages unnecessary surgery in young people is not a solution to this problem. I would first blame the dominant paradigm that marginalizes people who don't fit in, but in this case marginalized people have taken on the same qualities as those they're criticizing through policing everyone's behavior. What I read of this little manifesto *is* obnoxious.


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## plagueship

yeah don't quibble, just believe whatever the leftists tell you. especially believe them when they claim to be anti-authoritarian.

sorry, i was going to read this but i don't really want to read anything that begins by telling me "leave your critical thinking at the door and believe this text unquestioningly".


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## bryanpaul

ok..... this is kinda neat.(much easier to read on the linked site)....at first i'm like "wtf is all this nonsense"....."too much dumb shit to read about some gay lesbian stuff"....(glad linda/ziggy explained what "cisgendered is s'posed to mean) but wait, i start reading through this list and am realizing some stuff that me, being a straight dude, might take for granted....like ya know as narrow-minded as it sounds i never gave two thoughts about what it would be like to have a dick but want to be identified as a woman,etc.... as in legally and socially and all....i mean in a nutshell what i get out of this is what a pain in the ass and emotionally unnerving and it must be to be transgender in our society .....i dont know, i got my ignorant opinions on all that stuff but i'm glad i saw this post....kinda sit back and realize the shit some people go through on a daily basis cuz of who they are ...................next stop: xbocax's "white priveledge" thread


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## thisisme

venusinpisces said:


> What I read of this little manifesto *is* obnoxious.


 Agreed. who doesnt want to be respected as a human being?


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## pip

Fine.Hate me,hate my friends, but you know what? we fight for our cocks and pussies, We get beat to death over being ourselves, we are the last group of people its okay to hate. FUCK YOU . we will not stop,no more than your corporate control will. fuck your money,fuck your pseudo-rebellion. enjoy your status as the dominant 'alternative' .


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## Linda/Ziggy

.....


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## thisisme

pip said:


> Fine.Hate me,hate my friends, but you know what? we fight for our cocks and pussies, We get beat to death over being ourselves, we are the last group of people its okay to hate. FUCK YOU . we will not stop,no more than your corporate control will. fuck your money,fuck your pseudo-rebellion. enjoy your status as the dominant 'alternative' .


 pot calling the kettle black here? My corporate control, My money, and MY psuedo rebelliion? Hmm interesting. i completely agree that theres a struggle there and yes some have gotten beaten to death and i dont support any of that. i think all people have a right to be themselves and be respected as such. now with that said, if youre going to be a prick about it, What do you pay for that type of surgery with, coconuts? No, MONEY. who performs those surgeries? ur anarchist friends? No, Plastic Surgeons, a posterchild for everything thats wrong with our society to begin with! and as far as psuedo rebellion, changing your genitalia does not make you a revolutionary. id be more apt to stick up for you on this one if you werent being such an aggro hypocrite.


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## plagueship

the pip hath spoken. transgendered people are more important than anyone else. period. don't question it you ignant corporate fuck


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## Gudj

People who will post over and over again to defend an ignorant veiwpoint like "I'm not privileged" or "it doesn't matter if I'm privileged, I'm mad at you for bringing it up" are fucking idiots and need to get their shit together. Linda and plagueship and puckett and thisisme: Stop posting on this and the white privilege threads, and go read a book, or indymedia, or just go out into the real world with an open mind, _then_ talk about how it's the person who brings these issues up who's fucked up, not you.


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## xbocax

it seems every traveler that isnt a white male preconceives that during traveling at some point they will be assaulted for their physical attributes 
there in lye's privilege


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## thisisme

Gudj said:


> People who will post over and over again to defend an ignorant veiwpoint like "I'm not privileged" or "it doesn't matter if I'm privileged, I'm mad at you for bringing it up" are fucking idiots and need to get their shit together. Linda and plagueship and puckett and thisisme: Stop posting on this and the white privilege threads, and go read a book, or indymedia, or just go out into the real world with an open mind, _then_ talk about how it's the person who brings these issues up who's fucked up, not you.


 i never said that im not privileged in this regard, i realize that it is much easier to be a biological female than a transgender individual in this society. I support their struggle, but I am not society and pips comment was personally attacking me for being the dominant "alternative". i cant help being a biological female anymore than anyone whos transgender can help that. that sounds a bit hypocritical. Are you saying its ok to generalize and stereotype if youre the more oppressed, but not the other way around? id say that mindset is bad no matter what end of the spectrum you're on. im not saying anyone is fucked up for bringing up the issue im saying theyre fucked up for doing exactly what theyre complaining about.


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## plagueship

Gudj said:


> People who will post over and over again to defend an ignorant veiwpoint like "I'm not privileged" or "it doesn't matter if I'm privileged, I'm mad at you for bringing it up" are fucking idiots and need to get their shit together. Linda and plagueship and puckett and thisisme: Stop posting on this and the white privilege threads, and go read a book, or indymedia, or just go out into the real world with an open mind, _then_ talk about how it's the person who brings these issues up who's fucked up, not you.


 

no no no, i totally agree. everyone who disagrees with you is an ignorant piece of shit.


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## Matt Derrick

Plagueship, you need to cool it before you start earning a few warnings. That goes for any flaming by anyone on this subject. Keep it civil.


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## Crocodile

I'm going to take issue with a lot of people's responses to this thread. Thinking about what cisgender means absolutely does not mean sacrificing your critical thinking for some political demands. It means critical thinking about a very diverse group of people whose common identity bond of being transgendered gets trampled on due to the privileging of cisgendered over transgendered. 

I understand where everyone's coming from with being labeled "cis." No one wants to labeled, but sometimes labels are necessary for understanding how thing are operating in our society. The prefix "cis" keeps trans people from always being the "Other." Otherwise, without cis, anyone who isn't trans is viewed as normal, and therefore in relation, trans people are outside of normality.

I think the goal of creating these labels is to highlight something that is fucked up, change it, and then destroy the distinctions. 

I do agree that there is pressure to conform to the political ideologies within so-called 'queer identities." But you know? That's something that's true for any subculture or culture. There's always pressure to conform. And the fact that there are queer communities means that it's a response to how we label people so much on the basis of gender and sexuality. So therefore, why are we illuminating the need to conform within one specific community with such flagrant hostility?

Trans people need to be able to organize to highlight how they are systematically kept from being viewed as human, and that means creating a language that shows the nature of gender-normative relations. 

If you have a problem with it, well, think about critically. If you're having a deep-seated emotional response to it, feel through it and try to find the source of it. Maybe you have a valid criticism, and maybe there's something in you that works to disadvantage other people that aren't like you. I mean, I identify as queer, but if someone brings up a valid criticism of "the" queer community, then I'll think about it, feel it, and accept it as true. 

However, most of the responses I'm seeing to this are deeply insensitive.

Saying that things like gender-reassignment surgery and hormones are unnecessary, that being transgendered is a choice, and that "cis" people is more dehumanizing of a prefix than "trans" are all purely false. 

Being transgendered is no more of a choice than being homosexual is a choice. In other words, it just isn't. Gender reassignment surgery and hormones are necessary because without them, you feel as if your body is wrong (and there's a lot of evidence to indicate that this happens on a bio-neural level, so that happens prior to the social realm meaning that just thinking about it differently isn't going to change it. People _need_ those things in order to feel fully human. Also, if there is a prefix for "trans" people, why not have a word for "cis" people. More words mean more things for people to feel, express, and use. In other words, it makes us more human to have that word. 

I'm not arguing for people to conform to any particular way of thinking about this. I just wish that people would stop making the allegation that there is only way to answer these questions. And that works on all sides of the spectrum, "PC" or not. Just think critically, and don't assume that because someone uses a language that makes you uncomfortable that it means that they've become a slave to some trendy new political fad. Because you know what, that completely invalidates experiences that are not your own, and that cuts you off from being able to understand them and think freely about them. So, in the end, you become a slave to your own normative thought patterns, just the same as the yuppie drones we all hate.


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## Matt Derrick

Personally, I find it pretty disappointing that how many posts there are here denying any kind of privilege whatsoever, I just think that's unrealistic. Also, crazy liberal leftists are not out to get you in your sleep.


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## infekt

Ok, so maybe I am "privileged", seeing as how I was born with a dick and identify as a straight male. So what? I didn't choose to be this way.... I was born this way. Its not my fault I'm "privileged", so stop fucking hating me for it. Seriously...


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## venusinpisces

ElectroGypsy said:


> Plagueship, you need to cool it before you start earning a few warnings. That goes for any flaming by anyone on this subject. Keep it civil.


 Plagueship was only responding to being called an idiot by a moderator so it appears there is a glaring double standard going on here regarding who is allowed to lash out at others. Why take issue with "flaming" when you're calling banned members douchebags, anyways? Under the policies of most forums, that phrase would easily qualify as a personal attack. This is probably a big reason for why so many members here are justifiably giving you so much criticism about censorship, since the mods are given free reign to lash out while innocuous posts criticizing political correctness are deleted. Think about it.


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## Crocodile

infekt said:


> Ok, so maybe I am "privileged", seeing as how I was born with a dick and identify as a straight male. So what? I didn't choose to be this way.... I was born this way. Its not my fault I'm "privileged", so stop fucking hating me for it. Seriously...


 
I don't hate you for being "privileged" but it is an identification that can be used to help better understand how our world works. Some people have more privilege than others, and that's a fact. Facts don't require hatred, only acknowledgment. It's an identification, just like any word like it, and the feeling connoted by it mostly depends on the attitude of the person wielding it.


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## Matt Derrick

Crocodile said:


> I'm going to take issue with a lot of people's responses to this thread. Thinking about what cisgender means absolutely does not mean sacrificing your critical thinking for some political demands. It means critical thinking about a very diverse group of people whose common identity bond of being transgendered gets trampled on due to the privileging of cisgendered over transgendered.
> 
> I understand where everyone's coming from with being labeled "cis." No one wants to labeled, but sometimes labels are necessary for understanding how thing are operating in our society. The prefix "cis" keeps trans people from always being the "Other." Otherwise, without cis, anyone who isn't trans is viewed as normal, and therefore in relation, trans people are outside of normality.
> 
> I think the goal of creating these labels is to highlight something that is fucked up, change it, and then destroy the distinctions.
> 
> I do agree that there is pressure to conform to the political ideologies within so-called 'queer identities." But you know? That's something that's true for any subculture or culture. There's always pressure to conform. And the fact that there are queer communities means that it's a response to how we label people so much on the basis of gender and sexuality. So therefore, why are we illuminating the need to conform within one specific community with such flagrant hostility?
> 
> Trans people need to be able to organize to highlight how they are systematically kept from being viewed as human, and that means creating a language that shows the nature of gender-normative relations.
> 
> If you have a problem with it, well, think about critically. If you're having a deep-seated emotional response to it, feel through it and try to find the source of it. Maybe you have a valid criticism, and maybe there's something in you that works to disadvantage other people that aren't like you. I mean, I identify as queer, but if someone brings up a valid criticism of "the" queer community, then I'll think about it, feel it, and accept it as true.
> 
> However, most of the responses I'm seeing to this are deeply insensitive.
> 
> Saying that things like gender-reassignment surgery and hormones are unnecessary, that being transgendered is a choice, and that "cis" people is more dehumanizing of a prefix than "trans" are all purely false.
> 
> Being transgendered is no more of a choice than being homosexual is a choice. In other words, it just isn't. Gender reassignment surgery and hormones are necessary because without them, you feel as if your body is wrong (and there's a lot of evidence to indicate that this happens on a bio-neural level, so that happens prior to the social realm meaning that just thinking about it differently isn't going to change it. People _need_ those things in order to feel fully human. Also, if there is a prefix for "trans" people, why not have a word for "cis" people. More words mean more things for people to feel, express, and use. In other words, it makes us more human to have that word.
> 
> I'm not arguing for people to conform to any particular way of thinking about this. I just wish that people would stop making the allegation that there is only way to answer these questions. And that works on all sides of the spectrum, "PC" or not. Just think critically, and don't assume that because someone uses a language that makes you uncomfortable that it means that they've become a slave to some trendy new political fad. Because you know what, that completely invalidates experiences that are not your own, and that cuts you off from being able to understand them and think freely about them. So, in the end, you become a slave to your own normative thought patterns, just the same as the yuppie drones we all hate.


 
Holy shit, that was really well written, and I hope people here take those points to heart. Thank you!


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## Matt Derrick

venusinpisces said:


> Plagueship was only responding to being called an idiot by a moderator so it appears there is a glaring double standard going on here regarding who is allowed to lash out at others. Why take issue with "flaming" when you're calling banned members douchebags, anyways? Under the policies of most forums, that phrase would easily qualify as a personal attack, which is probably a big reason for why so many members here are justifiably giving you so much criticism about censorship. Think about it.


 
Like I said, that goes for anyone. Gudj included. I know you like to think from your anarchist armchair that we're fascist overlords out to oppress you, but in reality we just don't care that much about you. Please get off your high horse and keep this thread on topic.


----------



## Matt Derrick

Crocodile said:


> I don't hate you for being "privileged" but it is an identification that can be used to help better understand how our world works. Some people have more privilege than others, and that's a fact. Facts don't require hatred, only acknowledgment. It's an identification, just like any word like it, and the feeling connoted by it mostly depends on the attitude of the person wielding it.


 
Also well said. It's not out of hate towards cisgendered people that folks are bringing this stuff up.


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## venusinpisces

Crocodile said:


> most of the responses I'm seeing to this are deeply insensitive.
> 
> Saying that things like gender-reassignment surgery and hormones are unnecessary, that being transgendered is a choice, and that "cis" people is more dehumanizing of a prefix than "trans" are all purely false.
> 
> Being transgendered is no more of a choice than being homosexual is a choice. In other words, it just isn't. Gender reassignment surgery and hormones are necessary because without them, you feel as if your body is wrong (and there's a lot of evidence to indicate that this happens on a bio-neural level, so that happens prior to the social realm meaning that just thinking about it differently isn't going to change it. .


Personally, I'm coming from the perspective of having had a very close friend who transitioned from female to male and then decided that this had all been a horrible mistake. After the surgery and permanent hormonal changes had taken place, he was now stuck with a decision that would be with him the rest of life. I probably spent hundreds of hours trying to dissuade him out of committing suicide, since he wanted a husband and children yet was stuck with facial hair, a mutilated chest (his words, not mine), and a deep, male-sounding voice. I've also spent time around a lot of drag queens in Hollywood and SF who were constantly going back and forth between presenting as male or female. A lot of them were Navajo, which, like most Native American tribes, had a gender category called "two spirit" that was far more flexible than the medicalized definition of "transexual" and its implications of permanence. Because this part of Navajo culture was suppressed by European colonists, they are now expected to get surgery in order to fit into mainstream society. Part of what disturbs me so much about the spread of transexuality and all its accompanying profits for the medical industry is that it brings with it an erasure of so many tribes' cultural heritage. There is something very wrong about the idea of gender dysphoria as a disorder, because accepting this label means accepting that there actually is something wrong with people's bodies when they are not presenting in the "correct" way. Like Linda said, there is more emphasis on "correcting" the body instead of confronting cultural conditioning and the way it influences gender deviant people to believe there is something fundamentally wrong with who they are.


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## Crocodile

VenusinPisces, I sympathize with that experience on a lot of levels. As someone who has gone back and forth on identifying as trans and cis in different times in my life, it's quite a struggle to know who I am because the language and culture of American gender pulls on me in confounding ways. I identify as cisgendered right now, but there was a time in my ilfe where the only thing that prevented me from getting hormones and surgery was the lack of any forms of ID or money. It is very painful to not know who you are and how to enter into a loving relationship with yourself.

You brought up an aspect of cis/transnormativity that I didn't know you were addressing. It is incredibly fucked up how two-spirit people are placed in this juncture in which white ideas of gender overshadow their cultural, lived experience. Being trans and/or two-spirit (depending on how you formulate it) should never be pathologized, and it sounds like we agree on this matter. I think that the discourse on trans bodies and selves is extremely complicated though, and while the predominant factor in the suffering in gender dysphoria comes from gender normative structures and norms, I think it is entirely possible that another part may be due to biological and neurological pre-programming. In other words, if it is true that genetics, brain structure, and social norms all play a part in constructing gender, then it may not be enough to just have society accept more than two genders. It may require medical intervention, which is problematic because currently Medicine operates in a field of power governed by capitalism, cis and heteronormativity, and white supremacy. However, if it is true that gender is completely socially constructed, then the narrative that having non-binary systems of gender is the best way to see gender, then surgery would not be necessary. I think it's a very dense discourse, and no single person has THE solution to it. But that's why these conversations are so crucial, since we need to find some set of solutions that work well for all people, cis and trans.


----------



## little_owl

How do people only associate being aware of cis-gendered people and their privileges as people who are only transgender or transexual? I don't like sexism, that includes gender roles. I don't care for the term cis-gendered because it does kind of create a label for people that should just be associated with being sexist and buying into b.s. gender roles but for people to just think it's people being "overly pc" or "liberal" is absurd.


----------



## 614 crust

Fucking Really. WTF. I'm so sick of all this petty fucking infighting bullshit within our community (punk, anarchist, traveler, ? comunity) How can we ever hope to make this a better world when we cant even get along within our own community? This shit is so fucking lame. 

You know we are all fucking human, Whether we're Male, Female, Straight, Queer, trans, So called cis (which in my opinion is fucking stupid), rich, poor, White, Black, Purple, what the fuck ever. We are all still human. That's the only thing that should fucking matter. I don't see why the rest of you cant see it that way as well. Why we can't even get along within our own community.

As far as all this super PC shit goes well If anything here lately I feel I'm being hated on, stereotyped, and discriminated against for being a straight white male. So fucking sorry I was born this way. Did I ask to be what I am? No, But I happen to like who I am. So that makes me wrong and a privileged piece of shit for it? Whatever. Fuck all that, Fuck all the racist bullshit, Fuck all the homophobic bullshit, Fuck all the anti trans bullshit, and definately fuck all the super PC I'm hollier than though bullshit most of all. I'm a nomadic human that was born with a dick and I'm fine with that. And if you don't like me for who I am you can choke on my fucking dick. 

As far as the privilege thing goes for you just to say that I'm privileged because I'm white or so called cis or whatever in my opinion is stereotyping and discriminatory because you do not know my background from birth or anyones for that matter except for your own. 
a little background on myself just so you can understand where I'm coming from.
I grew up well under the poverty guidelines with my grandmother and her 3rd husband. He (my step grandfather) beat me and my grandmother regularly and severely, broken bones were a common thing in our home he also sexually mollested myself and my younger brother and sister for most of our childhood lives. He always threatened to kill us in our sleep if she (my grandmother) left him. I ended up leaving home at 15 to sleep under bridges and in squats because it was safer than being at home.
If this is being privileged then you can fucking have my privilege.

oh and if you decide to have your dick removed and get a pussy or the other way around that IS a choice you made. It's not like you would die or some shit if you didn't do it. It's something you felt right and wanted so you cose to do it. It is a choice. unless someone held a gun to your head the whole time and forced you. Being homo sexualy can be something your born with and not a choice but having yourself surgically altered is deffinately a choice. That is my opinion on that.

I also do see somewhat of a double standard going on here as well where it seems that all the pc members of this site can stereotype, hate on and bash other non pc members but it is not ok for the non pc members to do so (no one pc or non pc should be doing this) or to even disagree with you or express there own opinions. 

I think there is a lot of shit we ALL need to work on and get over our differences and learn to cooperate with each other if in fact we are going to call ourselves a community. And it needs to start happening soon.

Oh well fuck it rant over for now.
And I know I will get tons of shit for saying all this but it needed to be said so fuck it whatever. And you can hate me if you like but it will just further prove what I'm saying.


----------



## xbocax

614 crust said:


> Fucking Really. WTF. I'm so sick of all this petty fucking infighting bullshit within our community (punk, anarchist, traveler, ? comunity) How can we ever hope to make this a better world when we cant even get along within our own community? This shit is so fucking lame.
> 
> You know we are all fucking human, Whether we're Male, Female, Straight, Queer, trans, So called cis (which in my opinion is fucking stupid), rich, poor, White, Black, Purple, what the fuck ever. We are all still human. That's the only thing that should fucking matter. I don't see why the rest of you cant see it that way as well. Why we can't even get along within our own community.
> 
> As far as all this super PC shit goes well If anything here lately I feel I'm being hated on, stereotyped, and discriminated against for being a straight white male. So fucking sorry I was born this way. Did I ask to be what I am? No, But I happen to like who I am. So that makes me wrong and a privileged piece of shit for it? Whatever. Fuck all that, Fuck all the racist bullshit, Fuck all the homophobic bullshit, Fuck all the anti trans bullshit, and definately fuck all the super PC I'm hollier than though bullshit most of all. I'm a nomadic human that was born with a dick and I'm fine with that. And if you don't like me for who I am you can choke on my fucking dick.
> 
> As far as the privilege thing goes for you just to say that I'm privileged because I'm white or so called cis or whatever in my opinion is stereotyping and discriminatory because you do not know my background from birth or anyones for that matter except for your own.
> a little background on myself just so you can understand where I'm coming from.
> I grew up well under the poverty guidelines with my grandmother and her 3rd husband. He (my step grandfather) beat me and my grandmother regularly and severely, broken bones were a common thing in our home he also sexually mollested myself and my younger brother and sister for most of our childhood lives. He always threatened to kill us in our sleep if she (my grandmother) left him. I ended up leaving home at 15 to sleep under bridges and in squats because it was safer than being at home.
> If this is being privileged then you can fucking have my privilege.
> 
> oh and if you decide to have your dick removed and get a pussy or the other way around that IS a choice you made. It's not like you would die or some shit if you didn't do it. It's something you felt right and wanted so you cose to do it. It is a choice. unless someone held a gun to your head the whole time and forced you. Being homo sexualy can be something your born with and not a choice but having yourself surgically altered is deffinately a choice. That is my opinion on that.
> 
> I also do see somewhat of a double standard going on here as well where it seems that all the pc members of this site can stereotype, hate on and bash other non pc members but it is not ok for the non pc members to do so (no one pc or non pc should be doing this) or to even disagree with you or express there own opinions.
> 
> I think there is a lot of shit we ALL need to work on and get over our differences and learn to cooperate with each other if in fact we are going to call ourselves a community. And it needs to start happening soon.
> 
> Oh well fuck it rant over for now.
> And I know I will get tons of shit for saying all this but it needed to be said so fuck it whatever. And you can hate me if you like but it will just further prove what I'm saying.


 
this is generally how straight white males feel when having to confront their privilege
hard to accept when you wanna be a decent person 
but its here its standard and its an issue

again privilege does not guarantee you any status in life but for the most part will guarantee you being "the norm" and not affected by a lot of hateful thoughts and actions acted upon you


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## xbocax

every hardship you have ever faced in life would have a high chance of being ten fold if you were transgendered or some times over if you were a person of color


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## Gudj

> Fucking Really. WTF. I'm so sick of all this petty fucking infighting bullshit within our community (punk, anarchist, traveler, ? comunity) How can we ever hope to make this a better world when we cant even get along within our own community? This shit is so fucking lame.


 I agree, that's what this is about. Certain people are being consistently disrespected by everyone else and they are asking people to be aware of that and try to cut it out. A good step twoards stoping infighting and being able to see eye to eye with everyone. Being open to hearing about ways that a group want's to be treated or not treated makes more sense to me than telling them to shut up, and that they're just being pc. That is in fighting.




> As far as all this super PC shit goes well If anything here lately I feel I'm being hated on, stereotyped, and discriminated against for being a straight white male. So fucking sorry I was born this way. Did I ask to be what I am? No, But I happen to like who I am. So that makes me wrong and a privileged piece of shit for it? Whatever. Fuck all that, Fuck all the racist bullshit, Fuck all the homophobic bullshit, Fuck all the anti trans bullshit, and definately fuck all the super PC I'm hollier than though bullshit most of all. I'm a nomadic human that was born with a dick and I'm fine with that. And if you don't like me for who I am you can choke on my fucking dick.


 It's not like I have never felt like that too. Most everyone has. I used to be like most of the posters on this thread and think that we are all equal and you are just hating on me for being white and I cant help it. But then I started listening and not just being defensive, something you should start on too. I almost always am read as a straight white male. I am not, but that's besides the point. Being read that way sometimes times makes the company I'm around challenge me a little bit more, or are harder on me when I fuck up than if I wasn't, because they are so used to straight white males abusing their privilege and not listening. Far more often however, being read that way grants me access to a ton of places and responses from people that I wouldn't get otherwise. There are too many of those situations to even start listing, but once you start looking for them, you will see them EVERYWHERE. That does not make me hate myself or feel guilty for being perceived that way, but it does make me want to listen to folks who don't have those same privliges when they alert me that something I'm doing is making shit even harder for them, and makes me want to be careful that I don't start (or continue) navigating the world by just relying on my privilege, instead of by earning respect and being who I am.



> As far as the privilege thing goes for you just to say that I'm privileged because I'm white or so called cis or whatever in my opinion is stereotyping and discriminatory because you do not know my background from birth or anyones for that matter except for your own.


 Again, that is missing the point. Also, no-one is attacking you so get the fuck over it and stop being defensive so you can listen. This is a systemic issue, ALOT of white, straight, cis, able bodied, male, ect. have hard lives. Duh, that's the fucking world that we live in, life sucks and we have forgotten how to treat each other. Some trans people end up rich, some people of color end up being president. That in no way erases privilege. How many redneck fucks call barak obama a nigger? How many times do you get attacked by those same recneck fucks because you are trans, or a person of color? 
.



> I also do see somewhat of a double standard going on here as well where it seems that all the pc members of this site can stereotype, hate on and bash other non pc members but it is not ok for the non pc members to do so (no one pc or non pc should be doing this) or to even disagree with you or express there own opinions.


 First of all, way to unite our 'community' by invoking this false pc/nonpc dichotomy. These two groups don't exist, there are people who are being respectful of someone else at the moment, and those who aren't (and those who aren't are always the ones to bring up p.c.). But beyond that, the reason (for me) that I have been reacting that way is because all your trans/homophobic and racist comments are shit that I hear every fucking day in real life, have absolutely no argument value, and are designed to silence people instead of encourage conversation (much like your post is designed to end the discussion). Also, it is alot more damaging for some piece of shit to post about how trans peoples bodies are 'monstrosities' than it is for a trans person to tell a cis person to check their fucking privilege. They aren't even comparable. 

The bottom line is that if you want people to "Get along within our community", it's a prerequisite to listen to other people when they let you know how you could help make getting along easier.


----------



## 614 crust

xbocax said:


> this is generally how straight white males feel when having to confront their privilege
> hard to accept when you wanna be a decent person
> but its here its standard and its an issue
> 
> again privilege does not guarantee you any status in life but for the most part will guarantee you being "the norm" and not affected by a lot of hateful thoughts and actions acted upon you


 
So how I feel when having to confront my privilege? Hard to accept when wanting to be a decent person? I like to think that I am a decent person. How does me having some sort of privilege get anything to do with what kind of a person I am?
So maybe straight white males do have some sort of privilege. Maybe I even have a LITTLE myself.
But how is you or anyone giving me shit about having some sort of privilege going to change anything? 
To me giving me shit about having some sort of privilege I don't even give a shit about is not going to change a damn thing. To me it is just fucking annoying. 

And I'm sure as fuck not abusing it or anything. If anything It's like I threw that privilege out the fucking window by choosing to live the life that I do, by riding freight trains, by wearing the clothes I do, by having dreads, by dumpster diving for my food, and by all the other aspects of my life that aren't the "norm". 




Gudj said:


> I agree, that's what this is about. Certain people are being consistently disrespected by everyone else and they are asking people to be aware of that and try to cut it out.



Yes it is annoying. And yes I am and try to stay aware. That is why I read the whole thread and didn't just close and ignore it. I always try my best to be respectful of others and I wish others would do the same.



Gudj said:


> It's not like I have never felt like that too. Most everyone has. I used to be like most of the posters on this thread and think that we are all equal and you are just hating on me for being white and I cant help it. But then I started listening and not just being defensive.



I do listen, but yes I do get shit for being a white male more often than you'd think whether you want to believe it or not. But yeah I do believe that we should all be equal. We are all human. Why should anything else like race or gender or sexuality matter? In my eyes it shouldn't



Gudj said:


> Again, that is missing the point. Also, no-one is attacking you so get the fuck over it and stop being defensive so you can listen. This is a systemic issue, ALOT of white, straight, cis, able bodied, male, ect. have hard lives. Duh, that's the fucking world that we live in, life sucks and we have forgotten how to treat each other. Some trans people end up rich, some people of color end up being president. That in no way erases privilege. How many redneck fucks call barak obama a nigger? How many times do you get attacked by those same recneck fucks because you are trans, or a person of color?



Again whether you choose to believe it or not I have been attacked by PC kids for being a straight white male. One example is some PC kids stayed at our place for a few days this past week while they were passing through Columbus. Anyway we were all drinking and after getting drunk (maybe if not drunk it might not have happened but anyway thats beside the point) they started giving me and two of my roomates shit about the way one of my roomates partner dressed, saying that we were sexist for encouraging her to dress the way she does saying it was degrading to her. Well she was there fortunately and told them we did not encourage her in anyway to dress the way she does that she simply likes to dress that way. and she did not feel degraded at all that she actually felt proud because it shows she is a woman and shes proud to be a woman.
Alot I get that since I'm a "straight" "white" male I must be sexist or homophobic or racist. I am none of these things. I'm not even fully white. I have american indian herritage as well and my daughter is part mexican. I have quite a few queer friends and some feminist friends as well but I still get accused of this shit sometimes by PC kids for not being PC, and it annoys the fuck outta me when it happens.

Oh and any redneck fuck or anyone for that matter that calls barak obama a nigger is a racist piece of shit and deserves no respect whatsoever and therfore will not get any respect from me. Barak Obama is a human so he's not white but he is a human none the less. Thats all that should matter.
And I do get shit pretty often from those same redneck fucks. I get shit from them like "you anti amerikkkan piece of shit", "If you don't like it here leave", "get a fucking job", "it ain't no depession no what you riding trains for", "you're just lazy", and quite often i get "fag", "what you queer or something boy? why you dress like that?", "fucking faggot", "why you got dreads you trying to be a nigger", "cut your fucking hair you're white", "only niggers got dreads", "why you digging in the trash for", and countless other stupid shit.



Gudj said:


> First of all, way to unite our 'community' by invoking this false pc/nonpc dichotomy. These two groups don't exist, there are people who are being respectful of someone else at the moment, and those who aren't (and those who aren't are always the ones to bringing it up p.c.).



From my experience I have seen two very distinct groups, PC and those who aren't PC. I am not PC but I still do my best to be respectful of everyone. I don't call anyone fag or nigger or dyke or any dumb shit like that, I try to address people how they want to be addressed so maybe sometimes i might say something like you guys when talking to groups of people that include women. If they take offence I apologize . just little shit like that. All that supper PC shit just annoys me personally but I still try to be respectful anyhow, because to me PC or not respect is very important and so many people need to learn that.
Respect, unity, equality, all things I wish there was more of in this world.



Gudj said:


> Also, it is alot more damaging for some piece of shit to post about how trans peoples bodies are 'monstrosities' than it is for a trans person to tell a cis person to check their fucking privilege. They aren't even comparable.



Anyone who says that a trans persons body is a monstrosity is a piece of shit that deserves no respect. If someone chooses to have there gender surgically changed that is their choice and their business, and who is anyone to tell them they are wrong or a "monstrosity for doing so, even if they think so they should keep that to themselves. Again people need to learn some fucking respect.
As for a trans person telling me to check my privilege if I've done nothing to provoke them. Well that in my eyes is being disrespectful as well.



Gudj said:


> The bottom line is that if you want people to "Get along within our community", it's a prerequisite to listen to other people when they let you know how you could help make getting along easier.


 
And Again I do listen and care otherwise like I said before I wouldn't have even bothered to read the thread in the first place.


----------



## UrbanNokizaru

this is being ridiculously over complicated, privilege boils down to this:
Different things that may or may not be personal decisions (race or sex for example) make it so that you have higher chances of being treated well in our societies. It doesn't mean every white cis-guy is gonna live like a king or that every hispanic trans-woman's life is gonna be hell, but it does mean that it's more likely and probable, that is all...


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## CXR1037

I believe that if people spent more time trying to achieve things and less time trying to pigeonhole themselves into categories, we'd all be better off. We're all humans.


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## xbocax

UrbanNokizaru said:


> this is being ridiculously over complicated, privilege boils down to this:
> Different things that may or may not be personal decisions (race or sex for example) make it so that you have higher chances of being treated well in our societies. It doesn't mean every white cis-guy is gonna live like a king or that every hispanic trans-woman's life is gonna be hell, but it does mean that it's more likely and probable, that is all...


indeed


----------



## thisisme

all i was trying to say is as long as someone treats others with respect and understanding its irrelevant whether or not they fit under the category of privileged. Everyone wants to be treated with dignity and respect. Maybe its just because it seems like a no brainer to me, but i dont think a 20 page "checklist" for the cisgendered is really necessary. Its a bit insulting. of course i also understand that unforturnately not everyone is empathetic and respectful, otherwise this wouldnt be an issue in the first place, so in that regard it would be necessary for certain individuals. What bothers me is the assumption that because i fit into the cisgendered category i automatically "dont get it" and must read an extremely long checklist that basically boils down to everyone is human and should be treated with diginity and respect no matter who they are. i said some less than kind words to pip, not because this person is transgendered but because of the lack of respect and ignorant assumptions being directed at me, the same thing they seemed to be complaining about, simply because i agreed that the checklist seemed obnoxious. i do agree i couldve have been more tactful on my response to this, but was simply trying to make the point that pip was being hypocritical. My responses were meant more fecitiously than anything. i agree with the fact that way too much time and energy is spent on labels and categorizing everyone, something which was created with the intent to break down those barriers only seems to lead to more barriers being created in the end. i dont know if this sounds repetitive or even makes any damn sense but thats my last two cents for this topic.


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## Beegod Santana

"I expect access to, and fair treatment within, sex segregated facilities
Homeless shelters
Domestic Violence shelters
Dormitories
Drug Rehabilitation
Prisons
Bathrooms
Locker rooms
Gyms
Hostels
Juvenile justice systems
Institutions and authority figures do not force me to adopt a different gender presentation, or deny me medical treatment.
Parents, foster care
Juvenile justice systems
Schools (all K-12 schools, some religious universities)
Drug rehabilitation
Nursing homes
Prisons
Hospitals/Mental Hospitals"


Um, whoever wrote this has obviously never been to most of these places. Being a trans -queer in prison can have some major ups on being a straight white male.

I'm a straight white male, I've had homosexuals attempt to sexually assault me on several occasions. I don't blame homosexuality though, I blame the fact that the world is fucked up and people love to dominate each other.

I've been denied medical treatment, basic human rights, and even food in jail. I don't really think being trans gender would've made it much worse.

At the same time I don't deny that being a male had some benefits in life. Even when I consider all the ways people have tried to kill, ruin, or imprison me, I still feel very blessed to be alive in this country.


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## venusinpisces

Beegod Santana said:


> Um, whoever wrote this has obviously never been to most of these places. .


Yeah, really. Who receives "fair treatment" in prison or juvenile detention centers, anyways?  That comment is actually kind of funny considering how corrupt the criminal justice system really is. Every time I've gone to jail I expected to be treated like absolute trash, just like everyone else in booking. That's the way it goes. I'm not denying that privilege exists either but that list is a good example of how exaggerated and over blown the idea can get. This is a much more reasonable way of describing it, in my opinion.


UrbanNokizaru said:


> this is being ridiculously over complicated, privilege boils down to this:
> Different things that may or may not be personal decisions (race or sex for example) make it so that you have higher chances of being treated well in our societies. It doesn't mean every white cis-guy is gonna live like a king or that every hispanic trans-woman's life is gonna be hell, but it does mean that it's more likely and probable, that is all...


----------



## venusinpisces

Crocodile said:


> VenusinPisces, I sympathize with that experience on a lot of levels. As someone who has gone back and forth on identifying as trans and cis in different times in my life, it's quite a struggle to know who I am because the language and culture of American gender pulls on me in confounding ways. I identify as cisgendered right now, but there was a time in my ilfe where the only thing that prevented me from getting hormones and surgery was the lack of any forms of ID or money. It is very painful to not know who you are and how to enter into a loving relationship with yourself.
> 
> You brought up an aspect of cis/transnormativity that I didn't know you were addressing. It is incredibly fucked up how two-spirit people are placed in this juncture in which white ideas of gender overshadow their cultural, lived experience. Being trans and/or two-spirit (depending on how you formulate it) should never be pathologized, and it sounds like we agree on this matter. I think that the discourse on trans bodies and selves is extremely complicated though, and while the predominant factor in the suffering in gender dysphoria comes from gender normative structures and norms, I think it is entirely possible that another part may be due to biological and neurological pre-programming. In other words, if it is true that genetics, brain structure, and social norms all play a part in constructing gender, then it may not be enough to just have society accept more than two genders. It may require medical intervention, which is problematic because currently Medicine operates in a field of power governed by capitalism, cis and heteronormativity, and white supremacy. However, if it is true that gender is completely socially constructed, then the narrative that having non-binary systems of gender is the best way to see gender, then surgery would not be necessary. I think it's a very dense discourse, and no single person has THE solution to it. But that's why these conversations are so crucial, since we need to find some set of solutions that work well for all people, cis and trans.


I hear what you're saying but I don't think that, just because our conception of gender is at least partially based in genetics, this necessarily means that gender dysphoria is something that needs to be corrected via medical intervention. Two spirit people in the past got along just fine without synthetic hormones or surgery and their communities accepted them as is. Also, there have recently been studies showing that synthetic estrogens have been found in the water supply and are causing genetic defects in local fish populations. This is obviously not an issue that is the exclusive responsibility of transexuals since estrogenic compounds are a common byproduct of industry. But whether it's a woman seeking birth control or a transgender person attempting a gender change, the idea that human rights supersede our responsibility to the environment is one that will lead our society in a very problematic direction. At least in terms of birth control, there *are* safer and equally effective alternatives, such as Queen Anne's Lace(aka wild carrot). Of course, many people are uninformed about these issues so I won't fault individuals as much as culture, both mainstream and "counterculture", as a whole.

As for the adverse health effects of synthetic hormones, pharmaceutical estrogens have so many harmful effects I don't even know where to start: high blood pressure, heart disease, *cancer*, the list goes on. There have also been studies showing that men with low levels of testosterone are prone to depression, rage and physical exhaustion. Personally, I have noticed all of these symptoms in many transwomen(male-to-female) I've known, leading me to suspect that simply substituting unpredictable, synthetic drugs for the body's natural supply of hormones is not a wise course of action. Normally, I would say it's not my business to tell people what to do with their bodies, even if they're getting drunk on Listerine! But in the case of the transexuality trend, which is having an enormous impact on younger generations, activists are characterizing medically created gender change as a healthy, perfectly acceptable human right and I see this as irresponsible considering that trans people are basically guinea pigs for the medical industry. Have you heard about the Chidren's Transgender Clinic in Boston, which is preventing puberty through medical intervention? At that age, most kids don't even have a basic understanding of biology, let alone the ability to navigate the complex range of permanent "side effects" that can result from hormonal treatment. This is why I think it's important to expose the other side of things, because the transgender community is, in many ways, pushing for surgery to be the norm for people who hate their bodies. There is just no way I will ever see this as a beneficial development since systematic cultural change is a lot less likely as long as there are superficial "solutions". And thisisme's comparison to plastic surgery is a good one, since the obsession with surface appearance, and materialism in general, is one of the biggest problems with this culture in the first place.


----------



## thisisme

venusinpisces said:


> I hear what you're saying but I don't think that, just because our conception of gender is at least partially based in genetics, this necessarily means that gender dysphoria is something that needs to be corrected via medical intervention. Two spirit people in the past got along just fine without hormones or surgery and their cultures accepted them as is. Also, there have recently been studies showing that synthetic estrogens have been found in the water supply and are causing genetic defects in local fish populations. This is obviously not an issue that is the exclusive responsibility of transexuals since estrogenic compounds are a common byproduct of industry. But whether it is a woman seeking birth control or a transgender person attempting a gender change, the idea that human rights supersede our responsibility to the environment is one that will lead our society in a very problematic direction. At least in terms of birth control, there *are* safer and equally effective alternatives, such as Queen Anne's Lace. Of course, many people are uninformed about these issues so I won't fault individuals as much as culture, both mainstream and "counterculture", as a whole.
> 
> As for the adverse health effects of synthetic hormones, pharmaceutical estrogens have so many harmful effects I don't even know where to start: high blood pressure, heart disease, *cancer*, the list goes on. There have also been studies showing that men with low levels of testosterone are prone to depression, rage and physical exhaustion. Personally, I have noticed all of these symptoms in many transwomen I've known, leading me to suspect that simply substituting unpredictable, synthetic drugs for the body's natural supply of hormones is not a wise course of action. Normally, I would say it's not my business to tell people what to do with their bodies, even if they're getting drunk on Listerine! But in the case of the transexuality trend, which is having an enormous impact on younger generations, activists are characterizing medically created gender change as a healthy, perfectly acceptable human right and I see this as irresponsible considering that trans people are basically guinea pigs for the medical industry. Have you heard about the Chidren's Transgender Clinic in Boston, which is preventing puberty through medical intervention? At that age, most kids don't even have a basic understanding of biology, let alone the ability to navigate the complex range of permanent "side effects" that can result from hormonal treatment. This is why I think it's important to expose the other side of things, because the transgender community is, in many ways, pushing for surgery to be the norm for people who hate their bodies. There is just no way I will ever see this as a beneficial development since systematic cultural change is a lot less likely as long as there are superficial "solutions". And thisisme's comparison to plastic surgery is a good one, since the obsession with surface appearance, and materialism in general, is one of the biggest problems with this culture in the first place.


 Very well said. i agree 100%


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## venusinpisces

rideitlikeyoustoleit said:


> I expect access to, and fair treatment within, sex segregated facilities
> Homeless shelters
> Domestic Violence shelters
> Dormitories
> Drug Rehabilitation
> Prisons
> Bathrooms
> Locker rooms
> Gyms
> Hostels
> Juvenile justice systems
> Institutions and authority figures do not force me to adopt a different gender presentation, or deny me medical treatment.
> Parents, foster care
> Juvenile justice systems
> Schools (all K-12 schools, some religious universities)
> Drug rehabilitation
> Nursing homes
> Prisons
> .


Actually, the more I look at this list the more amusing it gets. I expect access to prisons???  

edit: I suppose that could mean for visitation rights. it just seemed perversely amusing since the majority of the places on that list are places I would be happy not to visit ever again, such as anything having to do with the prison industrial complex , bureaucratic social services or the medical industry. Just about everyone suffers as a result of these institutions so I can understand the frustration as far as that goes.


----------



## Matt Derrick

UrbanNokizaru said:


> this is being ridiculously over complicated, privilege boils down to this:
> Different things that may or may not be personal decisions (race or sex for example) make it so that you have higher chances of being treated well in our societies. It doesn't mean every white cis-guy is gonna live like a king or that every hispanic trans-woman's life is gonna be hell, but it does mean that it's more likely and probable, that is all...


 
agreed!!!


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## plagueship

to be clear, gudj told me to read a book (some book, any book?), to read indymedia, and to go out in the real world (because i live in the matrix). this is because of two short posts i made responding with various levels of derision to the fact that certain people were addressing themselves to the subject as unquestionable authorities. to me this is not consistent with anti-authoritarian forms of discourse (which this forum supposedly is..?) and 'i feel like' it is reminiscent in ways in which authoritarian politics invades supposedly anti-authoritarian discourses and projects, often by taking up specific, usually identity-politics-based, 'causes' which lend themselves to making these kinds of claims to authority. this was the most discouraging trend i encountered in my experience with 'anarchist' social scenes, and why i no longer participate in such scenes. i would also tie this to the fact that a lot of anarchists/leftists are from middle/upper class backgrounds and are therefore not comfortable thinking about class and the basic structure of capitalism because they feel guilty about their place in it (that's usually why they become a/lefts..), so they decide to be all righteous about racism, sexism etc.

so it wasn't per se a comment about gender or privilege at all...


----------



## plagueship

Gudj said:


> I used to be like most of the posters on this thread and think that we are all equal and you are just hating on me for being white and I cant help it. But then I started listening and not just being defensive, something you should start on too.



actually maybe you should stop projecting and assuming that other people have the same thoughts and experiences that you had.




Gudj said:


> Duh, that's the fucking world that we live in



that's a pretty cold way to respond to such an intense story about personal experiences of domestic violence, dude.



Gudj said:


> First of all, way to unite our 'community' by invoking this false pc/nonpc dichotomy.



i think you're showing why this is not a false dichotomy. i actually agree with you on a lot more than you probably realize, since you are so intent on taking a righteous and authoritative stance here, which along with the assumptions you have made about me, i've found pretty annoying. see my last comment on the other thread ...


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## Linda/Ziggy

I feel like a potato inside.
I was born in the wrong species.
I am so horribly oppressed because you won't accept me as a potato.
Or call me by the accurate term 'Spud'.

How dare you question my 'personal choices'.

Later


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## venusinpisces

Linda/Ziggy said:


> I feel like a potato inside.
> I was born in the wrong species.
> I am so horribly oppressed because you won't accept me as a potato.
> Or call me by the accurate term 'Spud'.


Better be careful. You might start a trend!


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## UrbanNokizaru

If you aren't a trans* person you are a cis-person it's not an insult it's a fact, that's something you need to get over. Also if you are not a trans* person you do not know what it is like to be a trans* person, I'd expect this was an easy conclusion to come to. So since you actually don't have the same experiences, you know, maybe don't run around being like "your shit doesn't matter, you're being a dick, I'm gonna make fun of your struggle" since really you have no idea what you're talking about. Having people ask you to stop treating them like shit and asking you to take into account the fact that a lot of things are easier for you than they are for them shouldn't be a big deal; it should be part of not being an asshole to people because they aren't exactly like you. I don't see why this is so hard for people...


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## Matt Derrick

UrbanNokizaru said:


> If you aren't a trans* person you are a cis-person it's not an insult it's a fact, that's something you need to get over. Also if you are not a trans* person you do not know what it is like to be a trans* person, I'd expect this was an easy conclusion to come to. So since you actually don't have the same experiences, you know, maybe don't run around being like "your shit doesn't matter, you're being a dick, I'm gonna make fun of your struggle" since really you have no idea what you're talking about. Having people ask you to stop treating them like shit and asking you to take into account the fact that a lot of things are easier for you than they are for them shouldn't be a big deal; it should be part of not being an asshole to people because they aren't exactly like you. I don't see why this is so hard for people...



this can be a difficult thread to read sometimes, but posts like this make it totally worth it. it's nice to see some sanity in this discussion


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## Gudj

Linda/Ziggy said:


> I feel like a potato inside.
> I was born in the wrong species.
> I am so horribly oppressed because you won't accept me as a potato.
> Or call me by the accurate term 'Spud'.
> 
> How dare you question my 'personal choices'.
> 
> Later



Funny you should say that [very unfunny thing]. Someone in my town recently made almost the exact same "argument" while being called out for transphobic bullshit. It was at that moment where some of us thought, "this kid doesn't get it, and won't in foreseeable future." and stopped trying to help that person get over their shit. Not that I expected more from you, the person who posted the most transphobic shit that this thread has seen yet. If you don't want to respect non-cis people then fine, but stop trying to convince the rest of us not to either.

Also, UrbanNokizaru: I love the sentiment of your latest post. I want to point out however that people can be niether trans nor cis, genderqueer and genderless people I think fall into that category. Maybe we just have a different understanding of the word.


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## EphemeralStick

I'm not really sure what all the commotion in this thread is about. If you want to be trans then be trans. if youre straight then be straight. gay's be gays and so on and so forth. I mean we are all just human in the end, so what do the little things like sexual identity or orientation matter? And so what if someone wants to be different? I thinks its safe to assume that not a single person on this site lives as a "normal" person to society's standards, so who are we to bash anyone? you dislike the idea of cis or trans people, fine but dont criticize others. and if youre a supporter fro cis or trans people, fine but dont try to shift the minds of others. people just need to learn to let things be.


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## Cardboard

Its funny to me somehow, without being certain, I guess that most of the people involved in this thread are middle class American kids. Making arguments on behalf of Iranian and Russian trans folk? How dare you? What do any of you know about privilege, coming from one of the most privileged places in the world (I said one of, not a nationalist by any means)? I saw the same thing in Denmark, even funnier. Danish trans folk complaining about how privileged straight people were. Go spend some time around people who are really oppressed, and really living in poverty before starting this spoiled middle class PC bullshit.


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## Matt Derrick

Cardboard said:


> Its funny to me somehow, without being certain, I guess that most of the people involved in this thread are middle class American kids. Making arguments on behalf of Iranian and Russian trans folk? How dare you? What do any of you know about privilege, coming from one of the most privileged places in the world (I said one of, not a nationalist by any means)? I saw the same thing in Denmark, even funnier. Danish trans folk complaining about how privileged straight people were. Go spend some time around people who are really oppressed, and really living in poverty before starting this spoiled middle class PC bullshit.



Despite my other statements on this subject, i cant help but agree with this statement as well...


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## Cardboard

UrbanNokizaru said:


> If you aren't a trans* person you are a cis-person it's not an insult it's a fact, that's something you need to get over. Also if you are not a trans* person you do not know what it is like to be a trans* person, I'd expect this was an easy conclusion to come to. So since you actually don't have the same experiences, you know, maybe don't run around being like "your shit doesn't matter, you're being a dick, I'm gonna make fun of your struggle" since really you have no idea what you're talking about. Having people ask you to stop treating them like shit and asking you to take into account the fact that a lot of things are easier for you than they are for them shouldn't be a big deal; it should be part of not being an asshole to people because they aren't exactly like you. I don't see why this is so hard for people...


"The average MTF cost was about $10,400, and the average FTM surgery (including top and, for those who had it, bottom surgery) was about $17,900."
You can afford this, and complain about the consequences. Too much privilege. I'm sorry, I don't know how it feels to be trans. I'm not sorry for how I was born however, and I am white, straight, male and American. Lame, I know. I (for one) was born this way, and whether I want to accept it or not, I deal. I didnt see many threads flaming trans folk before this one either. Someone here treated you like shit? Deal with them. You can be what you wanna be, I could give a fuck less. Just be careful of what and who you provoke. I dont mean this as a threat, but none of these people attacked you, or any lgbtqia person. You want to take this point to some Klan rallies, or Nazi conventions, be my guest, but why take it out on the communities that are offering probably the most understanding and support for gender politics?
P.S.- Equality is imaginary, No one guarantees human rights, life sucks, people are sacks of shit. Get over it.


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## trash diver

Humanity could learn a lot from dogs.they don't pay attention to wealth,political affiliation,sexual oreintation or even physical apperance or intellect.A dogs love is unconditional,like real love should be. I think they crucified a guy for saying something similar to this. Did'nt they?


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## xbocax

being transgendered is not just being a person whos had a sex change

*Transgender* (pronounced /trænzˈdʒɛndər/) is a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies to vary from culturally conventional gender roles.
Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity" (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both) not matching one's "assigned sex" (identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex).[1] "Transgender" does not imply any specific form of sexual orientation; transgender people may identify as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, or asexual; some may consider conventional sexual orientation labels inadequate or inapplicable to them.

if you are a white hetero male you are the norm and are treated as such
the issue comes from when anyone steps outside of what society has deemed their sexual nature to be
I do take some issue with sex change operations BUT i feel that you should not have to be treated like shit because you decided to do something with your own body
the issue at its core is that it has become acceptable to treat people like shit because they are different than the norm being the white American protestant male
females
minorities
cisgendered
etc etc etc


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## xbocax

Its VERY easy for people to disregard their privileges
I acknowledge my male, lower middle class, American privilege
acknowledge straight white male privilege
sexuality is not a class or money issue
some may be able to afford a sex change others just dress in drag in any case i would say that both would get a severe amount of shit from society and institutions for being such
too often do debates on privilege end up getting pigeon holed into slavery for minorities or economic status for sexuality just to avoid the issue of it being acceptable to treat others like shit or less than


----------



## Cardboard

I hea what you're saying Bocs, and I know that I am priviledged, but in the end, equal rights and treatment seems to be what this is all about, and that is such a fantasy. Equal rights to what? You have to be really glossing over so much, and generalizing nearly everything to talk about rights, let alone equal. I am A straight white american male if you feel like generalizing. I get Some privilege from that depending on when/where. I had no choice in being born this way, any more than anyone else who was born into something that is such a given as gender and race. I understand that privilege, and Ima fucking ride it till the wheels fall off. My parents threw the dice for me, without consent, and I came out the way I did. Life is a gamble that I didnt choose to make. Just because I might have an advantage because I got lucky and turned out to look like the dominant class of the world doesnt mean that I need to handicap myself, to make it equal for other who are less (on that world class scale, once again, a societal construct, rather than an undeniable truth such as gender/race/height). At the same time, I personally, will not handicap them, stand in their way, discriminate, hate on... Unless they suck. Here is one point where most people can find equality. We all fucking suck. And if you are truly trans from birth, because of some developmental situation in your self, you are probably alright with that, and if you have any problems with society, you can work them out. Unfortunately, I think most people are trans, because of these societal issues, and they are totally out of their fucking heads. These are the people that are starting conversations like this, pushing PC language, getting butthurt when someone uses the words he/she. And my honest opinion? Fuck them. They are warped and twisted in their heads, and trying to make life more difficult for the rest of the world, rather than just improving themselves. They are reflecting all the problems that they complain about. You want to be different, good for you. Be proud of it if you need. Be openly whatever you are. Don't be so fucking confused that I am attacked for saying the wrong words, that gender and race are generalized, and the white male oppressors become all the evil in the world. Be sure of who you are. Be confident. Follow your passions. if you can do these things and still feel like I am a problem, come talk to me then.


----------



## Sharkbite

So much ignorance here about transsexuals. First off society plays no role in it for many of us in determining weather we experience gender dysphoria. I first realized that I was different when I was 4 or 5. That sort of unhappiness shame and emberassment for who you are sticks with you for life and really destroys ones self-esteem early on. Not for everyone but for me definitely. And yes, I tried to fight these feelings for 18 years. 18 years of internal figthing! Are you really gonna tell me I should have tried harder? Try putting something off something you want for 18 years. Just don't have sex for 18 years and pat your self on the back and say "oh I'm so strong because I can deny my personal desires". Then come at me and call me weak. The truth is you are much stronger for being who you want to be than the "typical man". How much shit do you catch just walking down the street? Before I had surgery on my face I knew that where ever I went I had to deal with stares, name calling, creepy people following me, and physical threats. I didn't have any of that when I was acting like the average man. It's not really hard just being a man or even a gay man just going to the store.
As for telling me I should be happy with how I looked and overcome my own insecurities. Let me just ask a question first. Have you ever had someone give you advice about something they had no idea about, and they so believe they were giving good sound advice but you knew they had no idea what they were talking about? That's what people are doing when they say this B.S. It is such a platitude. I can't even tell you how disgusted I used to be with my face and body hair. It got so bad I didn't even look in the mirror for months except for shaving, less I would burst into tears at the site of my male face.
And yes people, it does fucking hurt when you use the wrong pronouns. I'm sorry you trying to use some psuedo intellectual personal right/inconvenience B.S but it's not that fucking hard to say she instead of he. That excuse doesn't cut it. If someone found out an old nickname you despised and called you it despite your preference, you would thing they were a prick too.
One more thing that really exposes the ignorance of most of these people in the thread to there obsession with our genetilia and the absence of cosmetic surgery. It just shows how out of touch people are with our priorities. Actually for most of us that is our 2nd or 3rd surgery even and is much more important than vaginoplasty. Being able to fit into society is so much more crucial than our genitals. But for some perverse reason almost all discussion of transsexuals involves our crotches. Just because I'm a transsexual and I'm a small minority doesn't give you carte blanch to ask about my genitals. It shows just how warped society is that they can call us weak minded and amoral, but at the same time my crotch suddenly becomes a conversation peace.
Sorry to bring up an old thread but I want to start travelling, and I came here to see what kind of ignorant B.S I would have to put up with while doing it.


----------



## RVLG

There have been some fucking intolerant posts here. It's old and irrelevant now, but I'm still going to make my points.

1. Society treats you like dog shit if you're transgendered. I hope no one is so blind to the world to deny this.

2. Scientific research has been done which shows that transgendered people are neurologically structured like the sex they want to be, ergo literally are 'trapped in the wrong body'.

3. People who think that "the Gays" and/or "the Trannies" are trying to take over the world are full of shit. They might say the same about "the Jews", "the Muslims", "the Blacks", or any other social group. None of these are backed by any evidence and are a lame attempt at justification of intolerance.

4. People who don't like being called 'cisgendered' should get used to it, as that is merely the proper term for "not-transgendered". They may as well dislike being called 'straight', 'human', 'mammalian', or 'vertebrate'.

5. Equal rights does not mean that a person with more rights has to lose them to be equal to a lower class. It means giving people with less rights more of them to be equal to those of a higher class.

6. 'Politically Correct' means having the 'correct' politics, which are whatever the present norm is. Transgendered people are well outside the norm, and it cannot be said that 'political correctness' exists in asking someone to use a different pronoun. Remember that gender is entirely social. If a transgendered person is not treated like the proper sex, then the entire point of transition has been lost (sexual dysphoria aside).


----------



## Beegod Santana

One thing I think any transgender person should understand is that almost EVERYONE living a transient lifestyle deals with a certain amount of narrow-minded bullshit just for being who we are. Don't like weird looks at the supermarket? Well I've been refused access to more stores than I can count just for carrying a backpack. Yes, I can stash that backpack, just the same way you can put on normal looking clothes to go out in. Despite the prevailing notion the transgender people are discriminated against everywhere in this country, there are some places where the transgender lifestyle is openly celebrated. If living in normalville usa is destroying you, move. No, its not fair, but it is an option. As I noted earlier in this thread, most of the places in this list are places where NO ONE gets treated equally or humanely. To "demand" special treatment due to your gender identity in places where everyone's rights are already being violated implies that you are in fact privileged to be transgender. In jail I still have to sit and shit in plain view of many people who might have rather unsavory desires or prejudices towards my body. You have to stand strong and defend yourself, otherwise you're fucked. You also have to swallow your pride evey now and again.


----------



## Cardboard

RVLG said:


> There have been some fucking intolerant posts here. It's old and irrelevant now, but I'm still going to make my points.
> 
> 1. Society treats you like dog shit if you're transgendered. I hope no one is so blind to the world to deny this.
> 
> Also, if you have dreads, piercings, many visible tattoos, if you are fat, if you are not the majority race/religion... Great, society treats us all (anyone outside of the social norm) like dog shit.
> 
> 2. Scientific research has been done which shows that transgendered people are neurologically structured like the sex they want to be, ergo literally are 'trapped in the wrong body'.
> 
> Where, when? Scientific research has and will continue to be done, to prove everything. Show me your sources, and some back ups, or STFU.
> (here is a nice little article saying that housework decreases breast cancer risk, hahahah.... science.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6214655.stm)
> 
> 3. People who think that "the Gays" and/or "the Trannies" are trying to take over the world are full of shit. They might say the same about "the Jews", "the Muslims", "the Blacks", or any other social group. None of these are backed by any evidence and are a lame attempt at justification of intolerance.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> 4. People who don't like being called 'cisgendered' should get used to it, as that is merely the proper term for "not-transgendered". They may as well dislike being called 'straight', 'human', 'mammalian', or 'vertebrate'.
> 
> "Proper"? according to whom? cisgendered, and gender normative are both relatively new terms, that have had to be created because of the confusion caused by those pressing gender politics into the main stream. However, this is the perfect argument against those who have x and y chromosomes and dislike being called "male". Or whatever other combination you prefer, just take care when talking about "proper" definitions, arguing in defense of someone who is trying to defy definition.
> 
> 5. Equal rights does not mean that a person with more rights has to lose them to be equal to a lower class. It means giving people with less rights more of them to be equal to those of a higher class.
> 
> Again, equal rights will not, do not, and have not existed. As well, keep in mind that the right is usually more about the lack of prohibiting something, rather than the empowerment of the person. From what I saw, no one on this board was prohibiting anyone from being equal, its just some who feel that they are not equal have not taken their opportunity to become that, rather just the time to complain that they are not.
> 
> 6. 'Politically Correct' means having the 'correct' politics, which are whatever the present norm is. Transgendered people are well outside the norm, and it cannot be said that 'political correctness' exists in asking someone to use a different pronoun. Remember that gender is entirely social. If a transgendered person is not treated like the proper sex, then the entire point of transition has been lost (sexual dysphoria aside).
> 
> Here is that word proper again. Back to the old chromosomal argument. The proper sex is that which is based on their chromosomes, something society has not much to do with.


----------



## katbastard

fuck your
*Privilege*

stop trying so hard and just be your self.


----------



## Sen

I'm confused as to why we need a hundred different labels (and thus, a hundred different ways to segregate) for everything? Transgendered/cisgendered/genderfluid/"real" male/biological female/whatever.

Personally, if I meet you on the street, at a party, or in a dark alley, whether you have a penis or vagina, and whether it was there when you were born or surgically created at a later point, or whether you are wearing clothes which may or may not align with the social norm for what's between your legs....it really doesn't matter.

Because, frankly, I can think of thousands of other things to talk with you about, hate you for, or love you for.

Everyone focuses on the differences, and then wonders why we can't all just get along. "It is what it is" - why complicate that?

But maybe I'm just insensitive and don't have a soul.


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## Sharkbite

I think there is a lot of debate in the community about such things, it's still hotly contested weather to go by transsexual or transgender. Honestly I don't care what we call our selves or what other people call me, just as long as they don't speak with any venom. But I agree that these terms can be oppressive. I was kicked out of the military for identifying with that label, and as soon as people find out about my past they see me as something different than male or female. Still I never want to go back to the hell my life was before.


----------



## Cardboard

Sen, I couldn't agree more, and this is the reason I make the arguments I do. I am not arguing on behalf of the haters out there, I am just saying that there is another side to these issues, and it is rather shameful that in the alternative communities, there is still such an issue with these things. I also feel (through experience) that these issues are often perpetuated by people picking in their heads, this role of victim, and everyone else as victimizer. Then, when someone accidentally calls the wrong pronoun, getting triggered and pissed off.
SHarkbite, you are right, its not hard to use the preferred pronoun, but this is often out of the question when the discussion has never come up. when talking directly to you or other trans folk, you should be prepared for it, as it is something you have chosen (to be identified by a gender based pronoun). However, when someone doesnt know you, and says, "excuse me sir?" and it triggers such a response as to agression, this perpetuates the problem. 
I have been insecure about things, I too hate my body hair. When I was a teenager I shaves my arms and chest because I thought it was disgusting. I was fat once, and a lot of people made fun of me. When I found myself though, and started to worry more about being myself, and whatever it is I want to be, rather than the opinions of other people, I became more confident and secure. These are the traits that I look for in people.
I think that it must be really hard for young trans folk, but its really hard for a ton of people when they are young. I lived with 3 trans folk over the last 5 years, and 2 were completely fucked out of their heads. they were both in their 20's, one was mtf, one ftm. They were both pre-op (I agree the genitals are the least of the worry), however they were both on hormone therapy (which I believe to be a truly terrible thing).
One of them was a klepto, and stole a tonne of shit from people in the collective we lived at over a 3 month period, and in the end tried to commit suicide and was taken away by a big white van with guys in white lab coats. This was a pretty bad experience, and probably uncommon and having nothing to do with the fact that they were trans. However the character of this "tranny dyke" (her preferred label) was so warped (I guess by hormone therapy), that I wouldn't be surprised if the mental problems crossed over somewhere.
Next was a bit younger FtM. Not so direct of a problem like a klepto, but still having a lot of problems from the hormones. He was no longer welcomed in the community, when one night he got violently upset about someone doing ether, and when they brought it to share with a friend of his, she ended up doing a lot, then getting violently upset that they wouldnt give him more. He called the police to the collective, and was no longer welcomed there after that.
The final case was a 48 year old MtF, who was calm, had her life together, and was a really awesome person. She was able to talk about sensitive issues in a way that made things clear to people, but did not feel so defensive, or aggressive. She opened a lot of peoples eyes to things that trans folk had to deal with, and played a big role in creating my belief that hormone therapy is a terrible thing.
In the years since this, I have encountered a hell of a lot of trans folk, and been in many queer communities. I can relate to a lot of queer ideology because I do not like the fact that I am identified as a man. I do however accept it, and I guess by a lot of standards, act the part. A collective I was living in Hosted a queer festival for over 2000 people a couple of years back, and it triggered again a distaste for the folks that play the role of victim. It was once again by young trans folk. They were spreading a lot of propaganda against straight males, and as well being triggered by anything they could find, if it meant the could impose their will over someone else (generally someone they considered the oppressor, generally a straight male). Someone was excluded for wearing a camouflage shirt, another for dancing around nude with an erection (consider this was a very sexual place, full with orgies and porn screenings), and I was almost excluded for hijacking the que for the kissing booth (ie, making out with everyone for free), when the people inside refused to kiss me for I was straight.
Again, I dont mean to generalize, but if I must, the younger trans folk, who are going through hormone therapy, and playing the role of the victim to everyone they meet, FUCK YOU. You are ruining the community for the rest of the people. You are making problems outside of the community by attacking the alternative folk who support you.
More generally, anyone who continues to play the role of victim, whether it is because of race, gender issues, religion, class, whatever. Fuck yourselves. Go away, please. You have no chance of changing anything in society until you change yourselves first. You are just projecting your own insecurities on everyone.
The rest of the trans folk, who are secure of themselves, and know who they are on the inside, regardless of physical appearance, good job. Keep up the good work. Try to exclude these confused angry victims from your community, they are more weight than any of you can carry, and they will only hold the movement back.


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## Cardboard

Oh, and this is a sort of personal private response to a recent event, ignore it if it doesn't apply to you:
D, are you actually an active part of this forum, or are you somehow just being a creepy stalker and spreading things I have written online to slander my reputation?
Anyone on this site is squatting in Dijon?


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## kadenelias

More:
I expect doctors will call me by the name I identify as
I expect doctors will refer to me by the pronoun I go by


thisisme said:


> pot calling the kettle black here? My corporate control, My money, and MY psuedo rebelliion? Hmm interesting. i completely agree that theres a struggle there and yes some have gotten beaten to death and i dont support any of that. i think all people have a right to be themselves and be respected as such. now with that said, if youre going to be a prick about it, What do you pay for that type of surgery with, coconuts? No, MONEY. who performs those surgeries? ur anarchist friends? No, Plastic Surgeons, a posterchild for everything thats wrong with our society to begin with! and as far as psuedo rebellion, changing your genitalia does not make you a revolutionary. id be more apt to stick up for you on this one if you werent being such an aggro hypocrite.


 Are you seriously going to say I am less of anarchist because I am willing to pay for top surgery when I can finally get the money together, instead of killing myself? Seriously?


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## kadenelias

What's that wrong with Hormone therapy? As a ftm, I am male whether or not I am injecting testoterone in my leg - I am male if I'm wearing a dress and I'm male if I'm shirtless on the beach with my moobs visible. That doesn't stop me from being uncomfortable in my own skin - that doesn't stop me from wanting a flat, "male" chest, not for acceptance in society and not because it will make me any more male than I am now (it won't), but it is how I, autonomously, choose to look . Self-revolution is important: it's knowing what you need to do to be comfortable with yourself and not caring what others think of those choices. Honestly I don't know if I'll continue HRC after I get top surgery - maybe I will, maybe I won't, but that's MY decision to make. What about genderless people? What about male-bodied but genderless/genderqueer people who want breasts or estrogen in their bodies, but identify as neither a woman nor a man? If there's no room for acceptance of transgender folk in anarchism - which before reading this thread I assumed of course there is, it's ANARCHISM, everyone can do what they like and not judge other people for doing what they like, we are all human beings and we are all DIFFERENT; so much of the problems in society comes from being afraid of the unknown, being afraid of those who are different, because somehow our own identity will become less valid if someone else's different identity is allowed to exist, and there will be less room for other issues to be dismantled (say, sexism, racism) if we spend time to dismantle cissexism. Honestly having an ego at all is the problem. I think we all just need to chill out and drop some acid and experience ego-loss.
I'm going to take a step back and breathe. Remind myself that this actually is still the internet and all the real people I've met have room for me in their revolution. & read the rest of the posts and hope there are more posts that don't assume having a list about cissexism means us trannies are sexist, racist cowards who are victims. I am NOT a victim. I am a free individual who chooses not to listen to authorities. I am an anarchist. And I am a transman.


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## Laume

This is legitimately the most depressing thread I've ever tried to make it through. :'(
All these blind motherfuckers. Like a bunch of spineless cave dwellers.

#ignorantCISbitches
#neverreadthecoments
#fucksociety


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## CrustyFagabond

What you think you become. 
If you think your different then you become different. 
If you believe your the victim of gender inequality then you become it. 
If you believe your the victim of homophobic violence, you'll find that too. 

I used to get the shit kicked out of me when I was in high school. I fought back and left the social constrains of public school early. I was proactive in my communities and believe I helped a lot of the younger LGBT generations to be more accepted and treated with respect. 
That's the main focus here. RESPECT. 
Try having respect for ignorance and help slowly open their eyes instead of forcing the preverbal eye open with a toothpick.


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## Cardboard

kadenelias said:


> What's that wrong with Hormone therapy?


Uhhhh....? really?
Sorry, whether it is hormone therapy, birth control, or even a natural hormonal imbalance, these things (especially estrogen and testosterone), drastically alter people personalities and behavior. I understand that that could be part of the point, but if you cannot directly see the conflict I may have with these effects, I dont know if I can get more clear (in a generalized way, rather than going deep into detail of personal experiences).
Again, yeah, to each their own, but if you are fucked up in your head from hormone therapy, or from being a junkie, it doesnt matter too much to me, it is a side effect from the choices you make (which you are free to do), that I would rather just avoid in my life.
I dont know. I havent thought about this thread in ages, but I think personally, I do not identify by gender. I do not choose to identify the people around me by gender (or, if identifying in a passive sense "that guy", do not impose a gender based definition upon others). You are free to do so when you want, but to me its a pretty petty, insignificant point on which to define one self. I dont run around claiming my gender, sexual preference, race, religion, nationality.... whatever. If asked, I have been introspective enough to know who I am, and sure, can answer when needed. But basing my definition of self, whether my self or others, upon one petty factor (ok, petty to me specifically, but to me any _one_ factor in defining ones self is pretty fucking petty), is below me, and rather a source of conflict, than the basis of a solution.


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## Cardboard

CrustyFagabond said:


> What you think you become.
> If you think your different then you become different.
> If you believe your the victim of gender inequality then you become it.
> If you believe your the victim of homophobic violence, you'll find that too.
> 
> I used to get the shit kicked out of me when I was in high school. I fought back and left the social constrains of public school early. I was proactive in my communities and believe I helped a lot of the younger LGBT generations to be more accepted and treated with respect.
> That's the main focus here. RESPECT.
> Try having respect for ignorance and help slowly open their eyes instead of forcing the preverbal eye open with a toothpick.


Spot on Crusty. Dont forget to not only respect the ignorance, but yourself as well. Sure your an anarchist, and you choose to be "different" or "a victim" when you want (I respect your right to that choice), but if you choose to identify as a victim, you are not choosing the path of empowerment, and my choice will not be to pity you.
"If you dont respect yourself, Don't expect respect from anyone else"


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## CrustyFagabond

Cardboard said:


> Spot on Crusty. Dont forget to not only respect the ignorance, but yourself as well. Sure your an anarchist, and you choose to be "different" or "a victim" when you want (I respect your right to that choice), but if you choose to identify as a victim, you are not choosing the path of empowerment, and my choice will not be to pity you.
> "If you dont respect yourself, Don't expect respect from anyone else"



Totally! And if someone choses to be the victim, don't try to force me to be the aggressor. 
We all should respect ourselves enough to take responsibility for our own actions and especially our RE-actions.


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## Deleted member 14481

The traveling community is really no better than the capitalists they say they are against. The second you call out people on their privilege they want to deny it and bring out situations when they didn't feel they have it even though they walk around with privilege every day.

"Oh, but I disagree". Disagreeing doesn't make you right. It just means you disagree, but you're too self centered to see that you're disagreeing with someone that can clearly see the privilege that you have because they don't have it.

It's like a cookie. We can see you have a cookie, and maybe we don't have a cookie or we only have a half a cookie, but you have a big whole fucking cookie. We have waited. We have politely asked. We've left bad store reviews and told the manager, but we still don't have the cookie. Meanwhile, you're eating your fucking cookie right in front of us, but telling that you don't have a cookie because it's not the exact cookie that you wanted. But, it was still given to you and you're still fucking eating it.

Fucking cis people.


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## Matt Derrick

i'm just going to copy and paste my response to you in the white privilege thread with a few additional thoughts:

"you are correct that 90% of this thread is people denying white cis privilege. and yes, that's fucked, and fucking stupid, because it's like denying the sun is in the sky. its a huge festering sore on the traveler community and i'm embarrassed that it even exists.

while i can't 100% know your anger (i'm a white cis male), i _can _empathize with it. and when you're so angry i understand that it's really easy to categorize everyone with blanket statements, but i would like to remind you that blanket statements often offend people that are trying to be your ally."

please understand that we are not all in the same boat because we were born a certain way; some of us actually acknowledge this problem and are trying to do something about it.


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## Inhibition

I'm genderless. I believe gender is a social construct and tool of social control, used to dominate and oppress so I don't identify with it.

As an anti authoritarian, I'd be in favor of the abolition of gender, except people are so emotionally invested in their labels it creates a quandary.

From my perspective gender is a cage to be boxed into. Our society rewards those who stay within their gender cages and punishes those who leave their gender cages.

What it looks like to me as someone who hates cages, is some want to live in the cages marked for others because they seem more habitable. They look longingly at the other cages and think 'I would be accepted and appreciated in that cage but not the cage I am was put in!'

For me, I would probably be accepted more readily into a female gender cage if I was born with biologically female anatomy, based on some of my behavioral traits which are more tolerated in women: lack of dominance, emotional, timid, sensitive, non competitive, nurturing, etc.

But I don't look longingly at any existing cage or the idea of creating new cages I could be appreciated for fitting into. My angle is to eradicate cages themselves. The problem is, it becomes increasingly difficult to free people from their cages the more attached they become. When people gain esteem, happiness, and adulation by having a label and 'fitting into the cage' the harder they will cling to the constructs for the same reasons cis gender people do.

I have sympathy for those feel they must exist within a socially constructed label and fit within it. But my activism and philosophical standpoint is that cages, even the ones with fluffy pillows and heaps of approval from society, are still bad. Rewarding people or punishing people based on how they fit into the cages is the crux of the problem.

I don't think creating more cages so everyone has an equally celebrated cage is a viable solution to inequality. I think in the long term it's more viable to attack the idea of gender as a cage itself, and push for the idea that people of any anatomical structure, appearance, and brain structure, should have precisely the same freedoms and same rewards/punishments. That there should be no reward for being in a cage at all.

We're not there yet, but I will continue to advocate for this scenario.


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## Matt Derrick

Inhibition said:


> As an anti authoritarian, I'd be in favor of the abolition of gender, except people are so emotionally invested in their labels it creates a quandary.



that's your opinion, but some people might enjoy their gender while not using it to lord over others. it would be far more anti-authoritarian to respect all genders (or lack thereof) equally, instead of banishing the ones you don't like.


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## Inhibition

Matt Derrick said:


> that's your opinion, but some people might enjoy their gender while not using it to lord over others. it would be far more anti-authoritarian to respect all genders (or lack thereof) equally, instead of banishing the ones you don't like.



That's not going to happen. Just like respecting all classes equally will never happen in a class based based society, respecting all genders equally will never happen in a gender based society.

The construct is enforced upon people from birth to create rank and hierarchy according to how well someone submits. In a gender based society, you will never have equality as certain segments will always be treated superior because it's based on gender divisions and submission and dominance behavior.

Transgender identity happens after people have cis gender identity forced upon them from birth. If someone grew up feral (food, water, shelter), with no concept of gender without any forceful indoctrination techniques from societies, the need for categorization would decrease significantly and the choice would be more free.

It's similar to religion and all other cultural indoctrination of information. Supporting all beliefs equally is valid, so long as there isn't authority and privilege in belief. If people are equally privileged to believe the Lord of the Rings is true as they are the Bible, then sure, pursuing information and forming conclusions independently of authority is fine. So long as one is culturally superior, forming identities based upon such beliefs leads to hierarchy. Christians will always be superior to Gandalfians.

You need to attack the roots of the indoctrination processes to remove the authority involved. Then people regain the ability to make those decisions free from oppressive influence that they would have if they were feral and truly free coercion. So long as indoctrination exists to create X divided societies, that must be criticized and attacked. Gender is one of society's primary forms of indoctrination. One of the freedoms involved in a non authoritarian structure is the freedom to not believe in the Lord of the Rings or the Bible. You can respect someone's right to belief, while still believing something is not based in the same reality you perceive and still believe that certain beliefs result in oppression. People need the right to not believe culturally concocted narratives.

The idea that human beings must be stratified. That we must have stratification based societies and this must be indoctrinated and everyone must agree about the stratifications. That's a core problem. A way to reduce stratification is to advocate for universal humanity. That there is no justifiable stratification and to oppose attempts to divide the species into categories which result in social approval, privilege, and authority. That means challenging the very essence of what divides the species, rather than creating more stratification.

The idea that if we create more classes, class based attitudes will go away. The idea that if we create more races, racial attitudes will go away. If we create more genders, gendered attitudes will go away. I respect the right for people to believe those concepts but I don't think they are concepts that are reflective of reality.

There is only one level of stratification and hierarchy necessary: human. When that isn't respected, people are dehumanized. I perceive indoctrinating further stratification as necessary is authoritarian. Allow everyone to be equally human and advocate for the freedom. If humans are dehumanized or deprived of freedom. Challenge that. 

I do challenge the validity of further stratifying humanity as the ideal for achieving equal respect and freedom from oppressive forces.


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## Inhibition

Creating trans-racial identities for people who don't fit into racial stereotyping and racial roles would be similarly counterproductive.

Say an Asian doesn't behave as a model minority or a black person doesn't behave as an athletic talented rapping thug and encounters social resistance to expected roles. At root, you either think race is a feature worthy of stereotyping and a valuable tool of stratification in the species or it isn't. Advocating trans-White, or trans-Asian, or trans-Black is backwards as it further stratifies, justifies, and reinforces the concept.

Similar frameworks occur with gender. So long as people have roles beyond being human, and those roles are perceived as valuable, they will never be free nor make real movements towards equality. If you define freedom as the ability to create a label of transgression of normative stereotyping such as transgender, trans-race, trans-class, you're not free and you're not equal. It's fully within normative framework, supporting the existing gender, race, and class systems rather than overthrowing them.

If you define freedom and equality as behaving as if everyone is equally human and any social framework that creates a subhuman should be dismantled, that's only way I see forward. Within that structure there is no room for racial expectations, gendered expectations, or class expectations. All that exists is a blank human slate for every human, with no other expectations to dehumanize, dominate, and oppress.


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