# God, Truth and Perception



## Argus (Nov 24, 2009)

It's said that at the center of every lie in a kernel of truth. It is my belief that every truth is incased in a shall of lies. Incased, but not trapped. It must be mined, sifted and extracted and eventually, with enough decrement, a precious piece truth is reached.

_Human beings are like broken mirrors portraying a distorted reflection of a perfect Truth. Truth being the perception of God. This Truth is what I believe to be objective reality - rather, things as they really are, verses subjective reality which is experienced through our five senses and seen through our inner mental filters that are shaped by our past conditioning._

Although it is possible to perceive objectively we cannot take in the totality of reality and say anything about it; we can only point to some of its characteristics. So whenever we explore reality in any specific manner, we have to leave out something. For example, when you describe an orange, you cannot say anything about its totality. You have to talk about its color or its taste or its shape. If you want your description to encompass the whole thing -- its color, shape, and taste all together -- you can only say, "orange." It's the same with objective reality. If you want to say anything about it, you have to focus on its specific characteristics. Import that idea into the concept of God, and you're in for quite the mind-fuck.


What are your thoughts, questions, expoundations, disagreements, or comments?


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## veggieguy12 (Nov 24, 2009)

Wouldn't it be cool if God really _did_ exist?

Or maybe God exists and is a real prick, responsible for doing all the terrible shit that goes down?


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## adragonfly (Nov 24, 2009)

i know what you said is pretty much a joke veggiguy ( and if it isn't, my bad haha) but i do believe god is responsible for all the terrible shit in our world, just as much he is responsible for all the good things. He loves everything so much that he gives everything with a consciousness the power to manifest its dream. For example, plants want to grow and survive, so god provided its growth. for plants its pretty easy, since they only want to do very few thing, grow and reproduce. For humans its a lot more complex what we desire since we desire so many things, especially now-a-days when some people desire to look skinny over surviving (anorexia) and god also provides that motivation. God realizes the desire for a murderer, and god realizes the desire for mother teresa. God loves everything so unconditionally, that when someone becomes emotionally hurt and doesn't want to see love and god, god will realize that desire. 

im still working on this philosophy. I can't say i believe it, i just have a couple of jigsaw pieces and this is one of them. and it hasn't connected to any other pieces i have yet. :/


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## veggieguy12 (Nov 24, 2009)

Actually, I read a novel that suggested that God exists and is very jealous of humans for several reasons: we are temporary and mortal, we can leave this planet and rest in death, we have bodies to provide sensations, sights, touch, we can have sex, feel pleasure and pain; God is immortal and without any physical presence.
Because God hates us out of sheer jealousy, God infects minds and enables atrocities against people and this planet we need for survival.

In defense of that notion, the numerous failed attempts to kill Hitler are detailed throughout the book - there was one of God's greatest agents of harm and destruction, wreaking death on a massive scale, perhaps unprecedented. And he survived over and over, shootings, bombings - nothing did more than come close getting him.
He was continually protected by God's grace, it would seem...


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## Argus (Nov 24, 2009)

veggieguy12, I'm assuming you've never heard of Jesus?
Because the one of the concepts of christianity is that God became a man and _added_ to himself humanity.

Human body, human emotions, human experiences.
It changes everything.


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## macks (Nov 25, 2009)

Are you trying to use the "we can't ever comprehend or communicate true reality"/"what *is* reality *anyway* _man_....." idea to back up the existence of God/Jesus? If so, how does that make any sense? Just a little confused here.


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## Argus (Nov 25, 2009)

Macks, I believe you're question is answered in the OP, if not can you be more specific?

The OP suggests Theism, but is still miles away from Christianity.

I made another thread regarding Objective Reality and Relative/Subjective (I'm not sure if there's a difference or not) Reality.
I should note that Ayn Rand was a bit psychotic, but I think the core of her philosophical system has some validity.


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## macks (Nov 25, 2009)

Well, after reading your original post I was confused by your reply to veggieguy. Where do God and Jesus fit in to ideas of how we define reality?


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## MeatyMax (Nov 25, 2009)

veggieguy12 said:


> Actually, I read a novel that suggested that God exists and is very jealous of humans for several reasons: we are temporary and mortal, we can leave this planet and rest in death, we have bodies to provide sensations, sights, touch, we can have sex, feel pleasure and pain; God is immortal and without any physical presence.
> Because God hates us out of sheer jealousy, God infects minds and enables atrocities against people and this planet we need for survival.




The gnostics believe something along these lines. That the God that created this world was an evil one. Similarly, Albert Pike talked about how if this God was all good, there would be no need to "fear God's mite". Generally people praise a mean God to stay on his good side and not piss him off. Granted some say that Pike and Freemasons are nothing more then satan worshipers but thats a different topic.

I agree with the difficulties of explaining reality. And that any explaining of it is just a humans attempt at doing so. Even science is just some humans understanding of the world that fits into this method that they have created. Think of dark matter, a term that describes this stuff that seems to be pushing matter apart. Science has no way of seeing or even measuring that its there they just know it is. According to recent hypothesis, dark matter makes up 95% of the universe! that means that science can only talk about 5% of "reality". That being said i am very open to anyones idea of reality, man some pink dolphins from jujuban are your saviors and have provided you with happiness in this "reality" well more power to ya.


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## veggieguy12 (Nov 26, 2009)

Argus said:


> veggieguy12, I'm assuming you've never heard of Jesus?
> Because the one of the concepts of christianity is that God became a man and _added_ to himself humanity.



Well, y'know what "They" say about assuming - in this instance, it turns out to be _un_-true!
I never did hear of this Jesus fellow you reference, but after a bit of researching online, it seems that he's supposed to have lived for about 30 years before he was executed, by the Romans, around 2009 years ago. His existence hasn't been conclusively proven, but it is generally and widely accepted.
He was supposedly born by a virgin mother, though he still needed the normal 10-months time in the womb to develop, and he was a pretty unremarkable Jew of time/region until he returned from some Eastern excursion, about which little is known.
Anyway, there are a lot of specious claims about his actions (ridiculous miracle stories abound - all totally unconfirmed, of course), and he never gained much following until way after he was dead, but basically, there branched a segment of Jews who called themselves Christians, because he was the christened one.

And somehow, despite the billions of dollars spent to promote this guy and tell varying iterations of his life and its meaning, and in spite of the billion Christians on the planet, I never did hear of it! Thank you!

And therefore, the idea behind that novel I mentioned couldn't even be considered?


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## freepizzaforlife (Nov 28, 2009)

you ever wonder if there is actually any reliable sources that the people existed, and the events described in the bible really happened? for all we know, it could of been a few random guys high on opium, who decided to write a fucking story. how can this shit even be depicted into english? the bible changes so fucking much. im high off my ass right now, saw this and stopped asking questions. sure its a spiritual belief. but shouldnt people grow up a bit and come to a realization that mabye this book of "truth" is 100 percent bullshit, and that people should start beliving/thinking for theirselves and the members of their community? insted of some fucking dude, we dont even know if he actually existed's story. 

jesus got nailed.


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## Gypsybones (Nov 28, 2009)

Consider this

One is amazed and even astonished, when considering the million people whom nowadays they profess to be of the spiritual lineage of the a being called Christ. For if one was from outer space and able to view life on this planet a century or so, one might observe this:

The Christians are the wealthiest humans of the third Planet. They seem to be the most violent humanoids, having brought about two world wars, tens of thousands of murders, and millions of rapes, assaults, and lynching. They are the only group that has dropped an atomic bomb against other not-Christian people. Also they are the unique ones which they have colonized and enslaved whole races of other human beings (Africans, indeed the bulk of the not-Christian world) and has committed genocide on an unsurpassed scale (America Indians and the Jews, for example). One of its nations, in which great amounts of Christians have settled down, called America, cages and imprisons more people per-capita that any other Nation state. 
They destroy and fail to replenish enormous expanses of land to secure great amounts of paper, called money. 
Their cities have vast numbers of people who live in the street, who they call "homeless".

This extraterrestrial perspective seemed facetious, but it allows us to ask questions that challenge that body of human kind that claims to be of the spiritual lineage of the Jewish carpenter of Nazareth.

Isn't is odd that in this nation the majority of the Christian adherence, claim to adore and pray a being who was prisoner of the Roman power, a inmate of the empires "death row" That the one that they consider the personification of the creator of the universe was tortured, humiliated, beaten, and crucified in a barren scrap of land, in the imperial periphery, at Golgotha (the place of the skull) 

That majority of its inhabitants called adherence to the crucified God, strenuously support the execution by the State of thousands of its jailed citizens? That the overwhelming majority of its judges, prosecutors, and lawyers, those who condemn, and prosecute, sell out the condemned. Claim to be followers of the fettered, spat upon, naked God. 

Of whom we are speaking: the Baal de Babylon, Jupiter of Rome, or the Christ of the Christendom?
After the passage of two millennia, How can even envision a future where life is safe to live, where the seas, the air, the very sun doesn't threatened extinction? 

How far the ideal from the real, how many of us who's god is mammon have sold out the worth of this wonders Earth for a shiny token? In how many of us can the voice of God be heard amid the tinkle of coins and rustle of paper?


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## macks (Nov 28, 2009)

Damn, well worded and thoughtful reply. You just made this thread like one hundred times better! Gold star!


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## bote (Nov 29, 2009)

Heaven´s Falls, picture you Holly rollin´ !

(not to trivialize your content, which was valid and tasty)




Argus, this seems to be your ¨kernel of truth¨ the one you mentioned is ¨Incased in a shall of lies¨:



Argus said:


> Truth being the perception of God. This Truth is what I believe to be objective reality - rather, things as they really are



so... what you believe is the truth, and the truth is GOD? and that´s how things really are?

as Macks pointed out, that doesn´t explain a thing, it just tells us what your (unfounded at least as far as this thread goes) personal beliefs are.
You have a belief in a god character based on faith, I wouldn´t call that ¨miles from christianity¨

fyi, ¨expoundations¨ is not a word in the english language and ¨decrement¨ does not imply distillation, but rather reduction. 

So that what you in fact said in your intro, was that one should take the information at hand, then make it smaller and smaller until it´s just an indistinguishable speck, then presto: ¨import that idea into the concept of god¨

mindfuck indeed. 
And as good a word as any to describe my opinion of the interrelation of God, Truth and Perception.


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## Gypsybones (Nov 29, 2009)

really me holy rolling? its the suspenders isn't it


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## Ravie (Nov 29, 2009)

Ah, I love religious debates. They never end in a conclusion because it's impossible to find one...


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## Argus (Dec 3, 2009)

freepizzaforlife said:


> you ever wonder if there is actually any reliable sources that the people existed, and the events described in the bible really happened? for all we know, it could of been a few random guys high on opium, who decided to write a fucking story. how can this shit even be depicted into english?
> jesus got nailed.




You are an ignorant, uneducated fool - respectively.

The bible has a mass amount of secular historical validity.


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## bote (Dec 3, 2009)

...and continuing with the grammar lessons, what you meant to say was respectfully, not respectively. 
Respectively would serve to attribute the adjectives to different subjects, so unless you are suggesting that freepizzaforlife is in fact multiple personalities, one of whom is ignorant and another of whom is uneducated, then your sentence doesn`t make any sense.


And then your second sentence: 
You may remember a rap duo from the mid-nineties called Gangstarr, produced by DJ Premier and fronted by a guy named Guru, who prided himself on kicking the knowledge and who would try to use big unwieldy words to describe mundane ideas, the end result sounding like he was really into the thesaurus, much along the lines of what we have here. 

His shit rhymed though and he had a dope monotone style, plus you can`t really go wrong with a Primo beat.


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## macks (Dec 3, 2009)

Argus said:


> You are an ignorant, uneducated fool - respectively.



Now now, name calling never gets us anywhere.



> The bible has a mass amount of secular historical validity.



Proof?

And could you answer my question below about how God and Jesus fit in to your original post? I still don't understand the point of this thread.


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## yarn and glue (Dec 3, 2009)

Heh heh heh heh heh. I like you.




bote said:


> ...and continuing with the grammar lessons, what you meant to say was respectfully, not respectively.
> Respectively would serve to attribute the adjectives to different subjects, so unless you are suggesting that freepizzaforlife is in fact multiple personalities, one of whom is ignorant and another of whom is uneducated, then your sentence doesn`t make any sense.
> 
> 
> ...


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## lobotomy3yes (Dec 4, 2009)

Sure, I can only look at specific details rather than the universe as a whole. Nothing wrong with that. That doesn't say anything about the existence of god. And quite frankly, my experience is that nothing in this world leads me to believe in a god. Religion has told us nothing, and philosophy shows us just how problematic god would be. 

I don't know for sure if god exists, but I can tell you this. If god exists, he/she/it/god probably isn't worth knowing about. Certainly not worth worshipping. God would have some serious explaining to do regarding the state of things. 

Nor do I wish for the existence of god. For years I believed the christian god existed, yet I hated everything he stood for. Now that is a mindfuck...It makes sense as an anarchist though. Even if god exists, why should I follow him? Eternity sounds infinitely worse than nonexistence. Just what is it about god that deserves my praise, the fact that he is god? Well I am me, and I say fuck god. If he wants to give me eternal damnation, so be it. At least I know I am not a) irrational b) ignorant c) despicable. The Christian god is a fucking monster when you think about it. Hell, any god that allows rape, murder, and bigotry is a fucking monster in my book.

After awhile I realized that there was no reason to believe in god anyway. I was basing my entire belief system on the experiences of other people and a stupid book.

Sorry if this offends anyone. 

No authority but yourself.


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## Gypsybones (Dec 4, 2009)

One might be both accused and excused of hyperbole if one were to assert that god has been utilized to justify more human evil than has satan. yet dozens of philosophers have pointed out that whatever its origins and promises, the reality of religion is this: it has often been less a force for liberation than a tool off oppression, an impetus for civil unrest, warfare and genocide. 

wherever one stands on the religion divide, it seems clear that a new, life-affirming spirit needs expression as we end a century of carnage and move into a new millennium. 
our supposedly enlitened age "the modern century" opend with a boer war; it is still folowing the bloody path:after the Armenian massacres came the world wars, the holocaust of the jews and manyother euro millions, and the atomic bomb on japan; then came Korea, Nam, (I could go on) wide spread civil unrest, not to mention the repression of one small country after another by self-appointed "peacekeeping" superpowers. 

if religion has had no impact on the shedding of this blood (has it done anything other than aid and abed it?) then why the need for it? how is it that we have become so numbered, that we can pretend our faith is one of resurrection and life, when in reality it serves as one of the worst flashpoints of conflict in our culture of death? 

Is our "GOD" the god of man alone? can a creator -god really bring into being creatures whose sole function is to serve the interests of themselves?


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## Gypsybones (Dec 4, 2009)

here is some thing that I have been reading and relates I think.

Whereas some doubts have arisen whether children that are slaves by birth, and by the charity and pity of the owners made partakers of the blessed sacrament of baptism, should by virtue of their baptism be made free, it is enacted that baptism does not alter the person as to his bondage or freedom; masters freed from this doubt may more carefully propagate Christianity by permitting slaves to be admitted to that sacrament. 

_Statutes at large of Virginia, Act lll (1667) _


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## veggieguy12 (Dec 8, 2009)

Argus said:


> The bible has a mass amount of secular historical validity.



Not that I really want you to turn STP into a sounding board for preaching or further pseudo-philosophical rants, but your mere _saying_ so doesn't _make it_ so.
There really is zero proof of any Biblical claims of the miraculous. Sure, there were floods and plagues, but no passover by the death angel, no trumpet blair collapsing city walls, no Red Seas parting. Circumcisions I'll grant you, but I find them entirely unimpressive.
Next time you say it, ought to back it up...(And just 'cos a website says it don't make it proven, neither!)



heavens_fall said:


> ...baptism does not alter the person as to his bondage or freedom; masters freed from this doubt may more carefully propagate Christianity by permitting slaves to be admitted to that sacrament.



Whatever one thinks of the Statutes of the great state of ol' Vuh-ginny, let it *not* be said that they ever discomforted slavemasters, no sir!


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## RnJ (Dec 14, 2009)

How did this turn into a grammar war?

As far as my personal experience goes, God slashes an opening into a closed system - the human machine. I don't really have any arguments to contribute on some proofs or whatever, because unlike "science" and "facts" and "empirical verification", I've grown very weary and preoccupied in the past with trying to know the how and why of everything. My life has been a lot better since I've just decided to start going without knowing the next move, enjoying the mysteries, the wind against my face; faith.

heavens_fall, you are certainly pointing out pretty dastardly deeds done by "Christians," and you're a good writer/thinker. It seems to be though that it doesn't take a religious person to kill, steal, rape and destroy; to be a hypocrite; to be rotten. Those thing are common to all humanity. It happens in the industrialized word, and it happens among more primitive people. I think the problem is that many "Christians" have completely lost sight of Jesus as a non-violent, politically agitating, table-flipping character. As with anything remotely good, it has turned in upon itself by corrupt men. It reminds me of how I can't judge anarchy by observing just any anarchists. In reality, only 1 percent of people will read the Bible, the other 99 percent of people read "Christians."

These are my opinions. I have been on the other side of belief before, and it sucked shit for me, so I just hope people can evaluate person A (me) for person A (me), not for person B (he/she/them/whoever). I make no claims to perfection, I'm, just trying to be transparent. If I'm ever being a douchebag, please just call me a douchebag instead of all other Canadians. 

Anyways, I hope this is more on topic than the grammar/vocabulary wars were, and that the discussion can remain civil. Cheers.


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## bote (Dec 14, 2009)

I guess you´re talking about me when you mention the grammar lesson, and about that I have only this to say:

Someone responding to comments with snide, rhetorical questions (¨I'm assuming you've never heard of Jesus?¨) and pompous insults (¨You are an ignorant, uneducated fool¨), can reasonably expect to meet with adversity.


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## Gypsybones (Dec 14, 2009)

> It seems to be though that it doesn't take a religious person to kill, steal, rape and destroy; to be a hypocrite; to be rotten. Those thing are common to all humanity. It happens in the industrialized word, and it happens among more primitive people.



yes but this isn't about normal people or as you so put it "more primitive people".
what is that more primitive people? those who don't live like us? those who kill by the spear rather than by advanced weapons and bombs. what make them so primitive? is it because their lack of capitalistic free markets, or because they don't wage war on a global scale to convert the dark-skinned heathens?
for century's in America the term "Christian" has been virtually synonymous with "white". it was used not so much to distinguish believers from unbelievers, but civilized, light-skinned colonized from uncivilized, dark-skinned natives-the so-called primitive Africans, savage Indians, and other such heathen. 

Jesus was a true socialist who hated the plutocracy he and every one threw out history has lived in. did he not say it was "easier for a camel to pass threw the eye of a needle then a rich man to enter the kingdom of god." of for that matter "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."
yet when Jesus entered a temple one day and witnessed commerce, money passing threw hands of merchants, did he not flip our and toss tables around yelling that it was not a market but a house of worship that money had no place here.
after that they nailed his skinny Jew ass to a cross 

yet so many people continue at Claim to be followers of the fettered, spat upon, naked God, yet they don't follow a single word that he, not the church, has preached. 
this socialist, this terrorist to the status quo, is in turn nothing more than a symbol of oppression for the people that would have you oppressed. 

I hear over and over again "those people weren't real christens" because they did this then and now it looks wrong, so like a real Christan I will denounce what another did and claim my self to be a true Christan.


People do not need religion to force them to act civil, my posts, no, history has shown this to be overwhelmingly true. if anything the lack of religion or disbelieve of god, has lead men to believe in one another and pushed them to create a better world, to coexist peacefully with everyone rather than "my god can beat up your god" bull. 

"If we as humans are only good because we fear punishment and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." ~Einstein~


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## Gypsybones (Dec 14, 2009)

I take forever to type and arrow posted before me and I didn't see it till after, but
_"Can't we all just sit around the hearth, toast a bowl, break some dumpstered bread, slug down a jug of wine, play a fiddle, fly a sign, participate in some good old dirty kid debauchery and get along"_
_
"My higher power is the welfare check that assures me my kid and I are fed each day and the rent is fuckin paid."_

well said lady!
your higher power need not to be a 2000yr old anorectic dead jew, a fat ass Asian that eats his feelings or a supposed invisible, illiterate Arab that has a flying horse. 
the one thing they all are, is men, men with ideas that someone to too seriously and made them a god. 
neither claimed it yet millions have killed because they were so sure what he wanted.


Why is it that freaks and fanatics are always so sure of them selves, yet the wiser of us are always so full of doubts?


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## Gypsybones (Dec 14, 2009)

you may in deed but give credit where credit is due. 
I remembered the quote but not the author, its Bertrand Russel who I quoted, I just had to pull out the quote bible to get the name.


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## lobotomy3yes (Dec 14, 2009)

ArrowInOre said:


> My higher power is the welfare check that assures me my kid and I are fed each day and the rent is fuckin paid. That's all I got, straight dope , no good grammer (Bote you fucking rock!) and no preaching...




Story of the fucking year. GG


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