# One of the most disturbing things I have ever seen



## Hudson (Nov 15, 2019)

Have you guys caught wind of this yet? 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...iffs-office-year-old-video-quadruple-amputee/
Absolutely horrific. I don't know how we got here as a country but something has to change.


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## Etown961 (Nov 15, 2019)

Hudson said:


> Have you guys caught wind of this yet?
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...iffs-office-year-old-video-quadruple-amputee/
> Absolutely horrific. I don't know how we got here as a country but something has to change.



I mean it was him or the cop man, the amputee was clearly resisting! At any moment he could have struck and knocked the cop clean out, the pin was needed, the amputee could have bolted at the speed of lightning at any second (͠≖ ͜ʖ͠≖)


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## Hudson (Nov 15, 2019)

It is kinda terrifying, I knew the police were bad, but god this bad? Talking about how they are opening an "investigation". 

I don't understand what needs to be investigated.... Its a goddam juvenile with no limbs being beaten and shit on by the law....


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## Eng JR Lupo RV323 (Nov 15, 2019)

I think they mean the cop and how he handled the situation is being investigated right?


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## Hudson (Nov 15, 2019)

What is there to investigate though? 

On a side note I'm sure as hell steering clear of Prescott Arizona. There's no excuse for that.

What is truly disturbing is the only news outlet reporting on it is the Washington post.


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## Dameon (Nov 15, 2019)

Hudson said:


> Absolutely horrific. I don't know how we got here as a country but something has to change.


I think it's hard to nail down, and hard to fix, because we've got a lot of stuff all kind of combining into the perfect police storm. Like how police unions protect most police from any real consequences of their actions, and how an increasing amount of police are military veterans (no offense) , and how police are increasingly using military hardware, and how police are so glorified in american culture that in many peoples' eyes they can do no wrong, and the rise of gun obsession, and lack of mandated oversight (_Quis custodiet ipsos custodes,)_, and lack of education on the judicial system.

It's a sort of tangled knot of racism and corruption and bro culture that it's kind of hard to pick out any one issue and say "that's the cause". Worse, since most of their victims are minorities and people in poverty, it's hard to convince the majority of people that there _is_ a problem because your average white middle class person will probably never have a police encounter worse than a traffic ticket.

I think that the only way to fix it is to take an extreme about-face, disarm police, mandate _active _oversight, mandate data collection, mandate mental health checkups for officers, and invest in training them in non-violent resolution. Some of this sounds extreme, I know, but we have an extreme problem. It doesn't really matter, though, because none of it will happen anytime soon.


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## Etown961 (Nov 15, 2019)

Dameon said:


> I think that the only way to fix it is to take an extreme about-face, disarm police



If we do take the route of disarming police, who's going to protect non-gun owners. Some *maniac* with a gun could take down countless police officers, non-violent resolution is really fucking hard when you're dealing with a *deranged* school shooter, or some *insane* homebum high on copious amounts of meth with some illegally bought rifle.


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## Coywolf (Nov 16, 2019)

Just saw this on local az news. Holy shit. 

Not going to change anything here in this state. AZ is one if the most corrupt states in the US. 

I'm going to throw out there that cops continue to teach in academies that all citizens are potential threats, and they are to be treated as such. This is essentially turning kids (who are normally the majority of police cadets) into right arms of the police state this country has being pushing since forever. 

It's sad that many parents raise their children to respect police officers because they are the 'most trusted citizens among us', then they see this, ignore it, and continue to teach their kids the same shit.

Same shit. Different day. Especially in AZ. Travellers take notice. This is every day shit in AZ.


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## Dameon (Nov 16, 2019)

Etown961 said:


> If we do take the route of disarming police, who's going to protect non-gun owners. Some *maniac* with a gun could take down countless police officers, non-violent resolution is really fucking hard when you're dealing with a *deranged* school shooter, or some *insane* homebum high on copious amounts of meth with some illegally bought rifle.


They don't need to carry weapons to have access to weapons. In many countries the police carry no firearms on their person, and they aren't just indiscriminately slaughtered by methed-out homebums with illegal weaponry


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## Coywolf (Nov 16, 2019)

Also, about the disarming police, ya, not quite down with that idea *COMPLETELY*

I've definitely been on the end of receiving aid from armed police. And fucking glad I did.

However. The Police should NEVER be able to obtain more powerful arms than the general populous. This is why I am against gun control that aims to restrict the general public from owning arms that are available to the police.

The military? Ya. I dont give a shit if we cant own .50 cals. You are not going to fight off the entire US millitary in a 'takeover event' with your fucking .50 cal mounted on your pickup. Look at Iraq.


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## Etown961 (Nov 16, 2019)

Dameon said:


> They don't need to carry weapons to have access to weapons. In many countries the police carry no firearms on their person, and they aren't just indiscriminately slaughtered by methed-out homebums with illegal weaponry



Sure, say they still have access to weaponry back at base, a lone officer gets called into a simple domestic dispute, armed with no gun. The cop gets there, the situation escalates by some means, and somebody gets violent. The cop didn't have a gun, the attacker grabs something as simple as a pipe, and bashes the cops skull open and then goes for other innocents. That situation could be prevented if the cop had effective weaponry on himself and was trained properly on how and when to use it. Other units arrive way after the perp has already done damage.


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## Dameon (Nov 16, 2019)

Etown961 said:


> That situation could be prevented if the cop had effective weaponry on himself and was trained properly on how and when to use it. Other units arrive way after the perp has already done damage.


And then you're risking the lives of civilians to protect the cop who _volunteered_ to place themselves in the line of duty to protect civilians. If they have weapons, the situation is inherently more likely to escalate. Weapons make people feel threatened, and when people feel threatened, we know that fight or flight kicks in. The cop is feeling threatened and has something to fight with, the person they're dealing with is feeling threatened because that weapon _is _an implicit threat that says "if you don't do what I say I can hurt you". Just by giving them weapons to carry around you're saying "we're going to sacrifice a certain amount of innocent lives to protect the lives of these officers." Training helps, but it'll only lower the cost, not eliminate it. It's either officers falling in the line of duty, or civilians, and just by arming police it's even possible that we're increasing the numbers of both (I don't claim to have any research to back up that assumption).


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## Etown961 (Nov 16, 2019)

Dameon said:


> And then you're risking the lives of civilians to protect the cop who _volunteered_ to place themselves in the line of duty to protect civilians.



So by giving the cop an effective, concealed weapon civilian lives are at risk? In most cases civilian lives are at risk if the cop *Doesn't* have an effective means of protection, the cop can't protect who he is called into protect properly, losing the lives of many more than just one cop.



Dameon said:


> Weapons make people feel threatened, and when people feel threatened, we know that fight or flight kicks in.



Small arm's can be concealed easily, i'm not saying that cops should have an AR strapped to their back. Cops don't truly know what they're getting themselves into before getting there, it could be a some tame upper-class dispute, or some insane guy who just snorted a shit ton of angel dust about to kill his defenseless wife, the wife might have called the cops before the situation escalated to an extreme. My point being that guns should be carried at all times by police officers, you never know what a situation might turn into.



Dameon said:


> Just by giving them weapons to carry around you're saying "we're going to sacrifice a certain amount of innocent lives to protect the lives of these officers."



I'm not saying that in any way at all. Cops need guns at hands reach to *protect* civilians, no lives are being sacrificed.


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## Eng JR Lupo RV323 (Nov 16, 2019)

I think they need guns but they really need to be educated on when to use them and when not to. I don't like cops just like anyone else but I can't deny that's a tough fucking job for any human being. The level of split decision judgment they have to deal with, I think it takes a truly special person to get that right. I don't think anyone is fully equipped with the level of discernment it really requires. I think the best thing we can do is make it mandatory for every cop to wear a body cam. That won't stop it all but it'll drastically reduce the amount of dirty shit they've been getting away with forever.


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## Hudson (Nov 16, 2019)

My biggest argument is they need escalation of force training like bad.

You don't beat on juveniles and people who are restrained. When we went overseas we had a minimum of 80 hours of escalation of force training. What that means is if somebody is throwing rocks at you, you don't point your weapon at them.  You don't shoot until you are shot at; you don't shoot people for having cell phones. 

Ultimately they just need to be held accountable. It's unacceptable to beat or kill an unarmed individual in handcuffs. 

I understand some of them are ex-military. That's not an excuse. They need to police themselves harder. This happened in September.

what does that say about the system? The people working at the care home said nothing? The other police involved said nothing? The people who booked a juvenile with no arms and legs said nothing? It took two months for this to come to light. That is incomprehensible to me.


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## Coywolf (Nov 16, 2019)

Hudson said:


> I understand some of them are ex-military. That's not an excuse.



Most of the fascists that show behavior like this have never been in the millitary, and it shows.

The best cops ive ever known were usually vets, because they have the training, and the ability to keep a cool head.


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## Maxnomad (Nov 16, 2019)

Cops gotta go

https://www.wweek.com/news/2019/11/...W3NlIhkqOeR38sdwk0jzV1vnQtf7pkMf-gU6McIVjNXc0


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## Hudson (Nov 16, 2019)

Coywolf said:


> Most of the fascists that show behavior like this have never been in the millitary, and it shows.
> 
> The best cops ive ever known were usually vets, because they have the training, and the ability to keep a cool head.




https://www.themarshallproject.org/2018/10/15/police-with-military-experience-more-likely-to-shoot

I'm not positive how accurate that this report is but it sheds some light on it. Veteran might not be the best police; at least in Dallas.


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## Coywolf (Nov 16, 2019)

@Hudson ya, that definitely cant be a blanket statement, but I find it more true than not.


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## Strangeandsolo (Nov 17, 2019)

Just another sick day in arizona, pima county sheriffs are no joke, I see them as apex predators, i dont fuck with them at all period . I hide from them when i can but i dont run i dont do anything to provoke them, these guys run several jails and prisons: dead inmates, ain't but a ting... It sad n Shameful if anyone can help us please do... or be hella careful here.


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## Dameon (Nov 17, 2019)

Etown961 said:


> I'm not saying that in any way at all. Cops need guns at hands reach to *protect* civilians, no lives are being sacrificed.


Cops with guns are going to kill a certain amount of innocent people, no matter how you train them, or conceal the guns. You will never reduce that number to zero. So in the interest of protecting police lives, you're making a choice to sacrifice civilian lives. It's simple math.

Despite all your arguments about how cops need to carry guns because they never know what they're going to walk into, police in many other countries do not carry guns, and they don't just get constantly slaughtered by civilians on PCP. You can argue all you want that it doesn't work, but _it works and we have proof of this._ In Great Britain, normal police don't carry or use guns, and they rarely die in the line of duty, and the police there are overwhelmingly in favor of keeping it that way.


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## Maxnomad (Nov 17, 2019)

Pima county sure, but everywhere. Yall have probably seen the quote "40 percent of police are domestic abusers" around, that comes from the center for women and policing and at this point its been fact checked to death and noones sued them. Not only that, its self reported, so when the studies were done, 40 percent of police candidly admitted to domestic or spousal abuse

Theres been a huge surge of white supremacists infiltrating the police, which of course the fbi has known about and done basically nothing. The intercept has a good couple articles on this. And the fbi themselves didnt exist as more than a division of secretaries until they essentially framed pretty boy floyd for a bunch of ridiculous shit he never did to justify them getting guns and a budget and being field agents

Cause thats how cops work of course, they get funded on the basis of lily white fears, so from a purely structural standpoint their job is to manufacture crime and spread fear. Theres been like a jillion cases of feds finding a couple dumb oogles, feeding them tons of booze and eventually like maps and timers and fertilizer an shit an then just busting them on the spot, homegrown terrorists. 

No, cops dont need to exist. Im not surprised at this point to see yall coming up with examples of cops doing the most horrible shit possible an then offering up a bunch of assheaded apologist speculation based on nothing at all, but youre all wrong, and youre all stabbing your friends in the back w your literally illegal lifestyles


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## Maxnomad (Nov 17, 2019)

For fucks sake reflect for a second on the widespread allegations of rape, torture and murder by police in hong kong, in bolivia, all across chile. Before any of you says not all cops, its simple. Yes all cops. You put on the blue nylon you can spend all day helping little old ladies cross the road an pulling kittens out of trees, you have an obligation if nothing else to the blue code that can get you killed if you break it, and youre taking blood money


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## WyldLyfe (Nov 17, 2019)

One of you do some looking into police IQs because apparently they higher em based on personality traits and lower IQ, look it up there not allowed to have higher IQs, they purpously higher low IQ people with little empathy.


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## Coywolf (Nov 17, 2019)

Maxnomad said:


> Im not surprised at this point to see yall coming up with examples of cops doing the most horrible shit possible an then offering up a bunch of assheaded apologist speculation based on nothing at all, but youre all wrong, and youre all stabbing your friends in the back w your literally illegal lifestyles



Naw dude. I take serious fucking offense to this. Just because I have a slightly different standpoint in this issue does not mean I'm stabbing the travelling community in the back. At all.

I have worked with some fucking amazing people that were LE Rangers in the National Park Service. If you ask me, those are the only cops out there that I would say are worth a damn. They didnt give a shit about busting some kids for pot or illegal camping, but they brought the fucking hammer down on people who would cause damage to the parks, vandalize Native American gravesites, and assault other Rangers.

So please, dont come up in here with that 'your either with us or against us' bullshit.

Look, I'm not a person who is going to get a ACAB tattoo on my knuckles, but I sure as hell am not defending the legal system. In currently having a fucking serious issue with trying to live in my van in the Forest, evade the FS LEOs, and then go to work in the same office as them in the morning.

Look, until we can have a society in which we all can look out for each other, we are going to need SOMEONE who can deal with the bullshit in the world. I've worked in Emergency Services for a long time as both a Firefighter and an EMT, and I can tell you right now, there is some really fucked up situations out there that abso-fucking-lutely need some sort of armed LEO response. Mass Shootings are just one example. Next let's add in Domestic Abuse, Terrorism, gang violence, and Murder.

In no way possible, can you tell me, that if 'Citizen Bob' had a cell phone, and instead of calling 911, you call him, and he would be able to correctly respond to, and protect the people, without getting paid to do it. Neither can you tell me, that if an unarmed cop showed up to a Domestic call, they would be 'just fine' without a gun. Domestic violence in the #1 call that kills first responders. That's Fire, EMS, OR police.

I've had to involve police while I was fucking travelling. I had a fucking guy pull out a gun and demand my gear in Durango, CO, I surrendered my shit, called the cops, and they got the guy, and gave me my shit back.

Yet again. IM NOT DEFENDING THE POLICE. The world would be better if we didnt need such an entity. But the solution isint 'get rid of cops', it's more of 'let's reform society so we do not have a need for such an entity'. Until I'm able to freely conceal carry my 9mm everywhere in this country, I'm going to be willing to put up with the existance of police.


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## Maxnomad (Nov 17, 2019)

I wasnt refereing to the travelling community. I was referring to all humans who value life. Perhaps that language was a little more colorful than useful, perhaps i was being counterproductive, but i meant it and i still feel it. My friend robby died in jail a few months ago after being pepper sprayed, tazed and handcuffed to a gurney and left. You have an obligation to all of us that starts at a very basic level with understanding how the world works. As an emt im sure you appreciate the importance of understanding c spine immobilization, etc.

Your argument about citizen bob is not only absurd, i already addressed it. Its a bad faith arguement simply because you chose citizen bob and not yourself, a trained emt and firefighter with years of experience figuring shit out in rough situations for himself. Or me for that matter, an asshole on the internet who would certainly do his best. However, before you made your nonsense arguement, i provided an article about portland, where theyre switching to a model that relies on non-leo trained responders (i suspect this has a lot to do with the multiple instances of white supremacist riot cops coordinating w and providing logistical support to proud boys, but im speculating here, see the intercept yet again for deets). Thats not perfect imo both because theyre not simply cutting cops out of the picture and because it leaves a lot in the hands of local gov who im leery of, but its pretty great. There was a project in brooklyn that i havent checked in on in a while which, if i recall, was app based and functioned as a mesh network, allowing you to place a 911 type call to whoevers closest on the basis of their qualifications, or as you might say, from each according to their ability to each according to their need (way more up my alley but who knows if it went anywhere). Protesters in hong kong are currently relying on underground hospitals because people are disappearing from the state run ones. Prior to roe v wade in 73 there was a clinic called the jane collective that provided underground abortion services to folks who otherwise could not access. In ferguson during the riots bloods and crips teamed up to protect local businesses and let the starbucks burn. So simply running your mouth about whats not possible from a place of having done no research and tried nothing is inexcusable.

Domestic abuse situations are often made worse by calling the cops more often than not. Frequently when the cops show the person being abused just wanted someone to break it up, while the abuser is perfectly happy to make allegations and send the victim to jail on top of everything. Often enough the cops show, do nothing, leave and then the situation gets worse. If the victim, or survivor, makes multiple calls they catch charges for making baseless accusations or whatever. And of course, you ignored my previous statistic, which is that at least 40 percent of cops are domestic abusers. I say at least because thats self reported. I think its more likely that 40 percent of them are dumb enough to admit it.

Murder, terrorism, whatever else. First of all those are economic and political problems, with economic and political solutions. Secondly cops dont do shit. Most often they show up after and take notes that sit in an archive til they get lost. This is basically cause theyre not psychic, im sure some of them would do their best to prevent a murder, as would i, which i can only practically do by engaging w my community on the level of making sure everyone has what they need (shelter, for example; cops do bust squats and persecute refugees).

As far as getting your shit stole, that sucks. Im glad you got it back, even if you had to talk to a cop to do it. Im pretty consistently nice to them when i get stopped walking down the interstate, its the only ssensible thing to do. Doesnt mean we shouldnt both have better options.

When an le ranger or a walker texas ranger or ice t puts on his cop costume hes lending credibility to all cops simply by participating in constructing an image and a narrative in which cops are essentially good, "just a few bad apples". Nothing a park ranger does couldnt be done by me or you without strengthening a global monster that materially threatens our friends and loved ones. There are basically two modes of state control: repressive state apparatuses (cops, mil etc.) and ideological state apparatuses (state rhetoric, you rn). Power is always not only shaped by discourse, it itself simultaneously takes the form of discourse. Even getting jooked is a discursive exchange - a subject verbed my object and it sucked. This level of analysis is obviously not useful in that case, but words matter. Just as theres a direct tie between physical harm and misgendering trans folks, when you say


Coywolf said:


> Until I'm able to freely conceal carry my 9mm everywhere in this country, I'm going to be willing to put up with the existance of police


YOU ARE DEFENDING THE POLICE
You are standing in the way of anyone trying to build a better world by muddying the waters, not to mention depriving us all of your own possibly really valuable contribution

God damn. Im barely getting grown myself, why do i have to raise yall too?


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## Coywolf (Nov 17, 2019)

Maxnomad said:


> You have an obligation to all of us that starts at a very basic level with understanding how the world works.



Wow. Apparently. After being a first responder, and traveller, , for years, I must not know how the world works.



Maxnomad said:


> Its a bad faith arguement simply because you chose citizen bob and not yourself, a trained emt and firefighter with years of experience figuring shit out in rough situations for himself



The issue here, is that there are very few people who have this training, and I would not trust, for a second, anyone who went through 'Joe's backyard Street Protest medical responder school' to touch me. Let alone anyone who was 'trained' in 'responding to dangerous situations', unless they have some sort of, and this is the reason we have qualifications, professional (which is usually state backed, due to all of the legal stipulations with having such a qualification) certification. 



Maxnomad said:


> a model that relies on non-leo trained responders



See above. EMTs and Fire are NOT TRAINED to deal with dangerous individuals. I'm all for a program that sends counselors or EMTs to calls that involve mental illness or homelessness instead of sending police, because they are more QUALIFIED to handle that situation. Unless it becomes violent, and then you are sending a good person into a very bad situation without the proper TRAINING.



Maxnomad said:


> There was a project in brooklyn that i havent checked in on in a while which, if i recall, was app based and functioned as a mesh network, allowing you to place a 911 type call to whoevers closest on the basis of their qualifications, or as you might say, from each according to their ability to each according to their need (way more up my alley but who knows if it went anywhere).



Jeeze. If you think this will be a practical situation in a country which has been indoctrinated to use the 911 system for years, you are dreaming. If we can get to that level through global wide system change, I'all for it. But no way in hell will I be willing to rely on something like that anytime soon. Being a first responder is incredibly trying on your emotions, physical and mental well being, and personal life. There is no way we are going to have adequate responses to emergency situations unless it is someone's specific job to do so.



Maxnomad said:


> Prior to roe v wade in 73 there was a clinic called the jane collective that provided underground abortion services to folks who otherwise could not access.



Ya. It's the same with doctors without borders. However, there will never be enough volunteers to provide the level of service for this country without serious systematic change. This country is 250+ million people.



Maxnomad said:


> So simply running your mouth about whats not possible from a place of having done no research and tried nothing is inexcusable.



*facepalm* nope no research done here at all. Not a bit.



Maxnomad said:


> Often enough the cops show, do nothing, leave and then the situation gets worse.



Ha. Here is where you show that you haven't done your research. There are many instances of cops showing up and not being able to do anything....based on our current laws of excusing mental illness based on it being a personal issue, not a social one. I'm not going to defend anyone here, as the legal system has failed almost everyone affected by domestic violence. But I'm still going ro say that 'my responsibility to the public as a first responder' is no way in hell going to get me to go into a domestic dispute and try to resolve it, especially with mentally I'll individuals. Great way to get yourself killed. Hence people who's jobs it isto do such a thing. And I'll for sure say that I'm not even close to the only person with that opinion.



Maxnomad said:


> Secondly cops dont do shit. Most often they show up after and take notes that sit in an archive til they get lost



Oh for Christ's sake. If you had any idea what happens in the intelligence community in this country you wouldnt have made that statement. This country would be Mexico or Serbia without anyone reporting, analyzing, and acting on the data reported by front line officials. But yes. This is a huge issue. It comes down to 'will we sacrifice our personal freedoms for safety?' And this is fucking scary, especially what we have seen with the Patriot act and the establishment of the DHS.



Maxnomad said:


> Nothing a park ranger does couldnt be done by me or you without strengthening a global monster that materially threatens our friends and loved ones.



Bullshit. Come back to me when you have a Masters in Land Management.



Maxnomad said:


> YOU ARE DEFENDING THE POLICE
> You are standing in the way of anyone trying to build a better world by muddying the waters, not to mention depriving us all of your own possibly really valuable contribution



I've made countless contributions. I've drafted policy change, directly lobbied against the current push to illegalize homelessness on public land, and pushed to take Rangers back to be a RANGER instead of another cop in the wild. I'm not muddying shit. I just donthave the same opinion in how things should change, and you dont like that. It's not me versus you, its us versus them.



Maxnomad said:


> God damn. Im barely getting grown myself, why do i have to raise yall too?



Come on dude. You arent a messiah. Get used to the fact that people have differing opinions.


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## Coywolf (Nov 17, 2019)

And look, I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong, or stupid, here. I'm trying to discuss this situation and not piss anyone off. I've already said I'm not really an anarchist. And @Maxnomad I appreciate your input and am enjoying the debate


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## Maxnomad (Nov 17, 2019)

Coywolf said:


> Jeeze. If you think this will be a practical situation in a country which has been indoctrinated to use the 911 system for years, you are dreaming. If we can get to that level through global wide system change, I'all for it. But no way in hell will I be willing to rely on something like that anytime soon. Being a first responder is incredibly trying on your emotions, physical and mental well being, and personal life. There is no way we are going to have adequate responses to emergency situations unless it is someone's specific job to do so.


Indoctrination is precisely what im trying to address, and in practical terms it starts with our language and our willingness to push back against rote responses like "forget it, arizona is a warzone, theyre all dead already". Whether i ever go to prescott or not, its "shithole country" type language that can only dehumanize a situation and justify anyone who hears in shutting down empathy and the possibility of personal aid. Our language shapes our idea of whats possible, which shapes whats possible. First responder training is available for free nearly everywhere, emt-b cert is cheap or free if you take a job w an ambulance company, judo is available nearly everywhere. Last time i looked into emt courses the school i looked at offered scholarships through the sponsor hospital for free two year paramedic training for everyone who made top ten percent grades, that would be 700 all in. Fema offers some pretty insane training and gear (hydraulic bus flippers and jaws of life type shit) to anyone willing to be or say theyll be regional disaster response coordinators. Bouncers put their lives on the line w much less in the way of resources on a daily basis too, w no thin blue line bullshit. Ask your average dancer if she'd trust a cop before the security dude she knows and counts on.



Coywolf said:


> Ya. It's the same with doctors without borders. However, there will never be enough volunteers to provide the level of service for this country without serious systematic change. This country is 250+ million people


Same w no mas muertes, same w copwatch all over the country, same w hurricane response efforts from anarchists all over. These efforts are not w/out problems, but your casual dismissal is just bullshit. It sounds like you have your preferred way of making a contribution and thats cool, dont get in the way of anybody elses



Coywolf said:


> Ha. Here is where you show that you haven't done your research


The whole paragraph that followed was largely incoherent. If im reading you right you say responding to domestic abuse situations in an official capacity is tough or risky for legal reasons. Thats not an argument against extra or a-legal anarchist or whatever response or support networks. Im not prepared to cite sources but i can come back w statistics, regardless quite often women in particular who call cops in situations of abuse wind up just getting fucked over a second time.



Coywolf said:


> Oh for Christ's sake. If you had any idea what happens in the intelligence community in this country you wouldnt have made that statement. This country would be Mexico or Serbia without anyone reporting, analyzing, and acting on the data reported by front line officials. But yes. This is a huge issue. It comes down to 'will we sacrifice our personal freedoms for safety?' And this is fucking scary, especially what we have seen with the Patriot act and the establishment of the DHS.


Im not sure why youre talking about the intelligence community but half this country was mexico. We had open borders w no problems until about the end of vietnam, when generals who needed busywork decided the border needed securing. That and outlawing weed created the cartels, imf nafta etc have done their part too. Where the hell are you going w this?



Coywolf said:


> Bullshit. Come back to me when you have a Masters in Land Management.


Youve proven my point. If my intention were to replace woods cops w my own smoky bear ass, id probably start by getting that masters



Coywolf said:


> I've made countless contributions. I've drafted policy change, directly lobbied against the current push to illegalize homelessness on public land, and pushed to take Rangers back to be a RANGER instead of another cop in the wild. I'm not muddying shit. I just donthave the same opinion in how things should change, and you dont like that. It's not me versus you, its us versus them.


Great. Can you shut up about whats not possible? This is not a matter of opinion. How the world works in particular places and particular ways is both concrete and understandable w study and effort, and a matter of life or death. Just not to you

And cops are bad


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## Maxnomad (Nov 17, 2019)

Oh, sorry, i misplaced a comma. I meant non-leo, trained reaponders. Read that article i posted about portland


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## Maxnomad (Nov 17, 2019)

Why are you invested in not pissing anyone off?


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## Preacher (Nov 18, 2019)

https://www.charleskochinstitute.or...ice-policing-reform/militarization-of-police/
Just part of this article

Today, there are currently more than 18,000 local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies in the United States. These agencies employ over 420,000 law enforcement officers tasked with protecting public safety in our communities. Each year, law enforcement conducts over 10 million arrests, resulting in more than 600,000 admissions to state or federal prisons. These activities cost taxpayers over $126 billion each year for federal, state, and local police protection. It is essential that we ensure that these investments in public safety are focused on maintaining a safe and orderly society where individual liberty and property rights are secure.

*The Rise of the Militarization of Police*

*What is Police Militarization?*
Police militarization is defined by scholars as the “process whereby civilian police increasingly draw from and pattern themselves around, the tenets of militarism and the military model.” This process tangibly occurs when a civilian police force adopts the equipment, operational tactics, mindsets, or culture of the military.

*Public Opinion of Police*
Public awareness and coverage of police militarization has largely focused on the acquisition of military equipment by police, such as armored vehicles, aircraft, and weapons. Since the early 1990s, the Department of Defense’s 1033 program has provided local law enforcement agencies access to military-grade equipment. This program, now expanded by President Trump after President Obama attempted to limit its use, allows local law enforcement agencies to receive excess Department of Defense equipment that would otherwise be destroyed because it was no longer useful to the military. Over 8,000 law enforcement agencies have utilized the 1033 program to access more than $6 billion worth of military equipment such as night-vision goggles, machine guns, armored vehicles, bayonets, grenade launchers, and military aircraft. Other items that can be accessed by local law enforcement agencies through the program include field packs, canteens, sleeping bags, and ponchos.

The increased use of military equipment has coincided with an increased use of military tactics, such as SWAT teams and no-knock raids, by law enforcement agencies. In recent years, police departments from Ferguson, Charlotte, and Southampton have received criticism for their use of military tactics. One study found that use of paramilitary-style teams by law enforcement increased by more than 1,400 percent since 1980.

*The Potential Dangers of Police Militarization*
The increased militarization of police has occurred alongside a significant decline in public trust for law enforcement agencies. While the public continues to respect their own community’s law enforcement agencies, public confidence and trust in law enforcement as an institution have decreased since the early 2000s. In a national survey from 2016, a majority of Americans stated that they believe the use of military equipment by police is “going too far.” 

This same study also found that most Americans believe that police should be required to receive a warrant before conducting a search of homes and vehicles or monitoring phone calls. This erosion of public confidence in law enforcement and low support for militarization impedes law enforcement’s ability to effectively secure public safety.

*Police Militarization Statistics*
Drawing conclusions about the impact of militarization on public safety and police use of force is difficult because research on this topic is both scarce and mixed. One study from 2017 found that every 10 percent increase in the value of military equipment received by a county results in 5.9 fewer crimes per 100,000 residents. However, when looking at military-grade weapons specifically, the same study found that receipt of these weapons had minimal or no deterrent impact on crime. Multiple studies have confirmed concerns about the militarization of police, showing that it results in law enforcement using higher levels of force against citizens. Overall, police militarization statistics seem to suggest that utilizing certain types of military equipment may result in reduced crime within a community but increased use of force by police officers against community members.

The responses of many jurisdictions following the incidents in Ferguson are illustrative of other problems with the militarization of police: infringements upon federalism and a lack of oversight by the people law enforcement is sworn to serve and protect. For example, to secure equipment through the 1033 program, law enforcement agencies send applications directly to state coordinators in each jurisdiction. This allows local law enforcement agencies to acquire the military equipment, purchased with federal tax dollars, without any appropriate oversight by state lawmakers or local city officials. The current structure of the 1033 program allows law enforcement agencies to circumvent the traditional principles of federalism and avoid the appropriations process meant to protect citizens from excessive government spending.

Furthermore, regulations that accompany the receipt of property under the 1033 program create perverse incentives for local law enforcement agencies to ensure they are able to retain the property for their department’s use. First, police must use any property acquired through the program within one year of receipt, otherwise they must return it to the Department of Defense. Second, law enforcement agencies are responsible for all of the transportation, maintenance, and conversion costs of this equipment. Although the initial zero cost for the equipment may be appealing, the insurance, fuel, storage, training, and cost to convert the equipment for law enforcement’s use can be extremely high. In some instances, these costs are too expensive for many jurisdictions to justify retaining the equipment if it is not being used on a frequent basis. This creates an incentive for the agency to utilize the equipment in circumstances where it may not appropriate or reasonably necessary simply to justify its retention by the agency. It also encourages police to shift resources away from catching individuals who are the largest threat to public safety to activities that will reap financial benefits for the department through civil asset forfeiture or seizure of property associated with low-level drug possession.


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## R3d (Nov 18, 2019)

Dameon said:


> Cops with guns are going to kill a certain amount of innocent people, no matter how you train them, or conceal the guns. You will never reduce that number to zero. So in the interest of protecting police lives, you're making a choice to sacrifice civilian lives. It's simple math.



Yeah, I never got that argument either. My line of work is statistically more deadly than cops. But that's an occupational hazard. We sign up for that. The risk/reward is worth it to me. And the same is true of numerous other occupations. Only with cops does anyone make the argument that they, despite choosing a risky line of work, ought to be able to displace that risk onto the general population who have no say in the matter. I never understood why cops lives matter more than people they are supposed to protect. That's like a logger pushing a hiker in front of a falling tree and claiming, "it was either them or me." The logger takes the hit because that's their job. Why should a cop be let off the hook for assaulting/killing an innocent person because they thought they were in danger? 

The only explanation I can come up with is cops, regardless how one feels about them as people, are, as an entity, a tool of state repression. They need that defense in order to coherse certain groups using the threat or exaction of violence. They can't outright say that, but the laws are written in a way that excuse said behavior. I mean they even teach classes on how to get away with murdering unarmed civilians:


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## Undercity (Nov 18, 2019)

This is just par for the course in America. Go to any city anywhere in the country and you'll find shitty cops. Investigating the cops themselves will do nothing- not when the system itself is fundamentally broken. The criminal justice system, from the legislators who write the laws down to the officers who enforce them is rotten to the core.


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## Hudson (Nov 18, 2019)

Its a disgusting system: where rich criminals go to rich people prison.


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## Coywolf (Nov 18, 2019)

Woooof. Ok.



Maxnomad said:


> forget it, arizona is a warzone, theyre all dead already"



I think you misunderstood me here. I'm saying this state has been, and will be, fucked for a long time. Dispite the efforts of local activism, this state is deeply rooted in racism, sexism, and oligarchy. Please dont think that I am trying to say that resistance is futile. That's ridiculous.



Maxnomad said:


> Whether i ever go to prescott or not, its "shithole country" type language that can only dehumanize a situation and justify anyone who hears in shutting down empathy and the possibility of personal aid.



Oh come on dude. Dont fucking relate my language to Trump. I live here. I know it isint a 'shithole'.



Maxnomad said:


> First responder training is available for free nearly everywhere, emt-b cert is cheap or free if you take a job w an ambulance company, judo is available nearly everywhere. Last time i looked into emt courses the school i looked at offered scholarships through the sponsor hospital for free two year paramedic training for everyone who made top ten percent grades, that would be 700 all in.



This goes to show utter ignorance of EMS programs, and how incredibly difficult it is to obtain these types of programs. Those 'free EMT programs' you speak of usually have people on a volunteer program for years before they pay for your training. Also, look into reciprocity, not every state EMS program is made equal. The comment about judo is irrelevant. Having martial arts training has nothing to do with identifying dangerous situations and how to correctly respond to them. A 'Fight or Flight' training is nothing when you are confronted with a known violent crime organization or domestic violence situation. Seriously. Look up the kind of training you need to realize potentially violent situations as a mental health professional. It isint black and white.



Maxnomad said:


> Fema offers some pretty insane training and gear (hydraulic bus flippers and jaws of life type shit) to anyone willing to be or say theyll be regional disaster response coordinators.



Ok....you just referenced FEMA. One of the most hardcore government agencies in involved in the oppression of minorities in the US.

But I get where you are going. I've taken FEMA trainings from anything involving USAR, to Domestic terrorism response, and the Incident Command structure...and everything in between. Yes, all of those trainings are free, and offer great training to anyone that seeks to have it.



Maxnomad said:


> Bouncers put their lives on the line w much less in the way of resources on a daily basis too, w no thin blue line bullshit.



Dude. Come on. Do you have any idea how many of those security people are killed in the line of duty because they do not have the correct training to handle the situations their ego gets them into?

I'm not putting down security, I'm just saying they are thrown into a very fuckong dangerous job without proper training. Many of those folks that do that are ex LEO or millitary. That is the exception. See my other posts about millitary vets vs. Non millitary. There is a reason why correct training makes a difference in violent altercations.



Maxnomad said:


> Ask your average dancer if she'd trust a cop before the security dude she knows and counts on.



True that. I agree with you, but, see above.



Maxnomad said:


> dont get in the way of anybody elses



Yet again. If you want to label me as a bootlicking oogle, who has no idea about the ideas of an anarchist, feel free. But I am not getting in the way of anyone. It's not like I'm out there saying 'THIS IS THE ONYL WAY! AND I WILL LOBBY AGAINST YOU UNTIL YOU DO IT THE WAY I WANT'

No. I welcome anyone idea on how things should change if they are a positive, realistic way of changing society. I think that (most) anarchists are some of the most critical thinking, positive people in the world, and that is another main reason I post here in the 'Politics and Anarchism' forum here on StP.



Maxnomad said:


> The whole paragraph that followed was largely incoherent. If im reading you right you say responding to domestic abuse situations in an official capacity is tough or risky for legal reasons.



Yet again. Please, please do your research on how fucking risky it is to involve yourself in these situations both with, and without authority. Peoples live have been ruined, through legal action, by acting the hero. Seriously. I think you could do well by looking into how complicated domestic abuse situations are.



Maxnomad said:


> Im not prepared to cite sources



...mmkay? Uh. That would be nice.



Maxnomad said:


> women in particular who call cops in situations of abuse wind up just getting fucked over a second time.



You are absolutely correct. This is in direct correlation to the misogynistic culture this country was based upon. My own mother was taken to jail as the 'Abuser' when my father broke her leg by throwing an end table at her. Because she was drunk. Go figure.

BUT. I still feel it's better to have someone to call when when that happens. My dad probably would have killed her if the police didnt show up.



Maxnomad said:


> Im not sure why youre talking about the intelligence community but half this country was mexico. We had open borders w no problems until about the end of vietnam, when generals who needed busywork decided the border needed securing. That and outlawing weed created the cartels, imf nafta etc have done their part too. Where the hell are you going w this?



Ok. Ya. I get some of this arguement. But not most of it. No. We have never had 'open borders' neither should we, until we can stabilize north America. If you really cant understand what I was talking about in my previous post, these politics are going far over your head, and I would severely reccommend doing some research on the subject.



Maxnomad said:


> Youve proven my point. If my intention were to replace woods cops w my own smoky bear ass, id probably start by getting that masters



So go out and get one, until then, dont elude to the fact that I am some sort of authoritarian compassionist for doing a job that I was not only trained to do, but have done countless research of my own in, and believe that it is for the good of the environment. Countless to popular belief, we do a hell of a lot more than oppress the public with our 'nonsense' policies.

However, like I mentioned before, some of our leadership is moronic. That includes bothliberal, and conservative minded. They are currently tryingto outlaw 'residential' use on the forest I work in, basically saying that unless you have a house to go back to somewhere, you are not allowed to camp on public land. That's fucking ludacris, and I'm currently lobbying against it.




Maxnomad said:


> Great. Can you shut up about whats not possible? This is not a matter of opinion.



Oh come on. I'm being realistic. Of course there is always a possibility for change. I'm not saying any of this change isint possible, you are putting words in my mouth.



Maxnomad said:


> And cops are bad



Agreed.

Also, I'm interested in not pissing anyone off because I know that heated emotions lead to less productive debate. You, as an obvious anarchist, should realize that. This conversation has not escalated to the point of you, or I, having to demean each other to support our point of view.....hopfully.

I realize you have been mute for 30 days. I'll wait for your response before making any other points.


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