# sailing is a lot harder then holdfast makes out!



## Durp (May 23, 2015)

Fuck. Almost just wrecked the boat. Sailing is a lot harder than Youtube makes it look. So glad I have a working engine, it just saved my ass from ending up on the rocks. Take this from experience, do not try and sail all by yourself if you have never been sailing in your life. It does not appear to be one of those things that can just be winged and figured out as you go. Wtf am I supposed to do with the winches? How do I control the genoa, jib, and mainsail along with the rudder? I almost ended up in a death jibe and swear I was about to roll the fucker before I managed to get all the sheets down just in time to not die. God damned that was fucking terryifing. If any one wants to teach me how to sail, I will provide you with mucho beer!


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## Tude (May 23, 2015)

OH FUCK DUDE!!!!!! I need an @everyone here but that that's not going on. @highwayman , @creature, @Matt Derrick are the people I can think of- tie up and breathe.....


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## creature (May 24, 2015)

i'm glad yer safe, man..

glad the boat is, too...

i know fkng nothing..
the fact you survived, though, is a good indication you probably have what it takes...

i'm struck by a picture of someone who doesn't know how to drive taking a toyota down a 6' wide fire road of big ass rubble, with thousands of feet of 200' sheer, dropping gorges as their first attempt to drive..

damn good thing you had the motor..

wise buy, buddy..

now get the fuck out there & learn what she is.

& be goddamned carefull, you ball assed cur of a conch...


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## Durp (May 24, 2015)

@creature this was pretty much the water borne equivalent of what you described... After lots of reading, seems like I did almost everything possible wrong.... Oops...


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## Matt Derrick (May 24, 2015)

don't let that discourage you, there have been plenty of sailors that have learned just by doing with no experience, but you will make mistakes 

just keep at it and keep studying, it's overwhelming at first, but after a while you'll wonder why you made such a big deal about it before


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## 36058 (Jul 1, 2015)

Jim, you should check out this site about a guy in GB who designed sailboats that sail themselves. You steer the boat with a lever activated rudder and a simple forward/neutral/reverse stick:

http://www.sailwings.net/index.html

Hellava nice guy and he doesn't mind if you copy his ideas, unless of course you live in the UK, in which case he has a patent. 

The wingsail is the future of sailing and the only means of propelling competitive speed racing vessels. By reducing the complexity of the task he blew the doors wide open for just about anybody to retro fit their vessel with wingsails and sail solo. 

I used to work on commercial boats and ships in the Bering sea and the idea of sailing across the ocean solo terrifies me. Not because routine sailing is such a big deal, but because I have seen first hand how the ocean can suddenly become the most violent place that you ever imagined. 

If you decide to retro fit a wing sail I can help you with the engineering, with scaling to your craft and a few simple improvements to his design. 



JimH1991 said:


> Fuck. Almost just wrecked the boat. Sailing is a lot harder than Youtube makes it look. So glad I have a working engine, it just saved my ass from ending up on the rocks. Take this from experience, do not try and sail all by yourself if you have never been sailing in your life. It does not appear to be one of those things that can just be winged and figured out as you go. Wtf am I supposed to do with the winches? How do I control the genoa, jib, and mainsail along with the rudder? I almost ended up in a death jibe and swear I was about to roll the fucker before I managed to get all the sheets down just in time to not die. God damned that was fucking terryifing. If any one wants to teach me how to sail, I will provide you with mucho beer!


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## Durp (Jul 2, 2015)

@36058 I have been practicing sailing and just fixed my winches. My rigging and sails are good enough for the puget sound. A wing would be awesome but I would want the ability to reef and stow the sail. I would not even know where to begin on that. Sounds freaking sweet tho, so shoot me your ideas. It has to cost less then a traditional sail set up or I can't really justify it. I don't want to get stuck in a storm and killed either so I'm sure it would require some good engineering. Here is the specs for my boat:
http://www.columbia-yachts.com/c-26mk2.html


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## 36058 (Jul 2, 2015)

JimH1991 said:


> @36058 I have been practicing sailing and just fixed my winches. My rigging and sails are good enough for the puget sound. A wing would be awesome but I would want the ability to reef and stow the sail. I would not even know where to begin on that. Sounds freaking sweet tho, so shoot me your ideas. It has to cost less then a traditional sail set up or I can't really justify it. I don't want to get stuck in a storm and killed either so I'm sure it would require some good engineering. Here is the specs for my boat:
> http://www.columbia-yachts.com/c-26mk2.html



One of the best things about the wingsail is that you don't ever have to reef the sail. You just tap the lever that controls forward/neutral/reverse thrust into the neutral position and the sails not only stop powering your craft, they automatically maintain the lowest possible wind resistance that a sail can maintain. So you can sleep effortlessly.

If you wanted to reef your sail simply to slow down the craft you can simply tack at a much less efficient angle which is accomplished simply with the rudder. 

The sail itself can be purchased from the inventor, or it can be made at home. It can be made from sheet metal framing, an aluminum tube, some kind of bearing (like ordinary grease ), and it can be skinned either with sheet metal or heat shrinking transparent plastic membranes like the ones used on the America's cup vessels and on airplanes:

https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/0...00.pbworks.com/f/1305507518/AC45-Wing-big.jpg

The picture shows the lightweight sheet metal (and composite) framing that world class racing yachts use along with the transparent plastic wing skin. 

Whether it costs less than a traditional sail setup probably depends on how much of either system you make vs buy. But the wing sail will last many times longer than cloth sails, is 10 times easier to sail, is much safer and even a child can learn how to steer the craft in an hour or less. It can also provide a whole lot more propulsion for the same sail area. But your boat has a hull speed limit that you don't want to ever exceed. Therefore for cruising sailors you want a smaller sail area that doesn't push your vessel at racing speeds.

The racing boats attain speeds well over 50 knots with wing sails. 

If Columbia is still in business you might want to ask them what the maximum hull speed for the craft is. Your boat came equipped with 310 sq feet of sail area. To match that thrust you would need a sail about 30 feet tall and approx 5 feet wide

There is a video or 4 in the link I posted yesterday that demonstrates the wingsail in action. You should check it out.


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## Durp (Jul 2, 2015)

Columbia is out of biz. This seems really cool, and I'm interested. I'm just afraid it will cost too much. I am also no engineer, and I wouldn't know we're to begin in designing something if this level of complexity. The first issue would be what to use as a mast and how to attach it. Second would be how the he'll do you move around a 30 ft wing and raise it to be attached? Build it in sections and sheet it once the frame is already raised and assumed? I am Def interested but price is a major constraint at this point. Also I can't have this thing rip loose at sea and kill me.


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## 36058 (Jul 2, 2015)

JimH1991 said:


> Columbia is out of biz. This seems really cool, and I'm interested. I'm just afraid it will cost too much. I am also no engineer, and I wouldn't know we're to begin in designing something if this level of complexity. The first issue would be what to use as a mast and how to attach it. Second would be how the he'll do you move around a 30 ft wing and raise it to be attached? Build it in sections and sheet it once the frame is already raised and assumed? I am Def interested but price is a major constraint at this point. Also I can't have this thing rip loose at sea and kill me.




This video demonstrates how it works and how the prototype was built.  It really isn't very complex. 

The mast must be a cylinder like an aluminum tube. I assume that your boat already has an aluminum mast and it is removable. Is it round or a complex shape?

A 30 foot sail really isn't that heavy. It is all constructed out of sheet metal (which is very light) that surrounds a central aluminum tube (only modestly heavy, a 30 foot x 6" diameter aluminum tube with a 3/16th " wall thickness weighs 144lbs)and then covered with either transparent wing material (almost as light as garbage bags). Every boat yard has cranes capable of fitting one of these masts and most have lifting equipment large enough to lift your boat out of the water. 

The wings are built like airplane wings except that endure far smaller stress loads so they are built feather light. Obviously airplane wings need to be very light to fly. 

You may not be ready to take this on right away. But sailing a boat alone is always a challenge in rough weather or tight places. The big advantage to sailboats is that they require no fuel. but they really are a pain to control and they have severe limitations as to where they can go or how you must get there. 

The wing sail makes sailing as easy as driving a golf cart.


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## Durp (Jul 2, 2015)

I understand where you are comming from, but a lot more than 144lbs must be able to be supported from one joint at the bottom of the pole. With a traditional mast the weight is eficciently dispersed with the use of guy lines. I can't figure out a way to attach the wing to the boat that won't rip my deck off of the hull if there is an issue with out an entire rebuild of my boat. Also I have no way of transporting said completed 30ft wing to a yard with a large enough hoist, as I don't have a massive trailer. I am unwilling to pull my boat fron water for more then a week since I start living on it tonorrow. If you can draw up some solid plans (math equations would be the best way to communicate this subject, I'm well versed in trig and calculus) also this seems like a daunting task for one guy to complete quickly by himself. Again I am all ears but would need assistance to complete such an epic task. I am willing to work together and volunteer my boat to be outfitted once we can develop a solid set of plans for a full sized yahcht. Maybe we can even sell the plans, and maybe even make a diy wing sail kit for large boats? I also am on a boat, so I have very limited space to work. Iet me know what you are thinking and how we can accomplish this. @36058


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## wizehop (Jul 2, 2015)




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## Durp (Jul 2, 2015)

@wizehop This is the first vid I saw when I came back to dock with my tail between my legs. I did some more of the never ending work required for the boat, and make it a bit further from shore every time I take it out. I have been just using the main sail and jib with frozen winches. I fixed the winches last night, now they are good as new. I have a great shape genoa, but I have no idea how to use that thing yet.


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## 36058 (Jul 3, 2015)

JimH1991 said:


> I understand where you are comming from, but a lot more than 144lbs must be able to be supported from one joint at the bottom of the pole. With a traditional mast the weight is eficciently dispersed with the use of guy lines. I can't figure out a way to attach the wing to the boat that won't rip my deck off of the hull if there is an issue with out an entire rebuild of my boat. Also I have no way of transporting said completed 30ft wing to a yard with a large enough hoist, as I don't have a massive trailer. I am unwilling to pull my boat fron water for more then a week since I start living on it tonorrow. If you can draw up some solid plans (math equations would be the best way to communicate this subject, I'm well versed in trig and calculus) also this seems like a daunting task for one guy to complete quickly by himself. Again I am all ears but would need assistance to complete such an epic task. I am willing to work together and volunteer my boat to be outfitted once we can develop a solid set of plans for a full sized yahcht. Maybe we can even sell the plans, and maybe even make a diy wing sail kit for large boats? I also am on a boat, so I have very limited space to work. Iet me know what you are thinking and how we can accomplish this. @36058




Your boat would probably need to retain the guy lines as you anticipate. That isn't a problem. But trust me on this guy lines place more destructive pressure on your hull than anything about a wingsail ever would. LOTS of boats actually warp under the designed stress of guy lines. Esp fiberglass boats. 

It sounds as if you are ways away from being able to convert even if you chose to. Take your time, learn how to sail the difficult way. Then when you are ready spend $1000 and make yourself a wingsail conversion that simplifies life immeasurably.

A LOT depends on whether you are sailing very occasionally, or every day. If you seldom actually set sail the advantages of a wing sail diminish. Whereas if you set sail every day the wing sail is indispensible.

The wingsail is the future of sailing, period. In ten years I doubt you will even be able to buy a cloth sailed boat from a major manufacturer.


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## Durp (Jul 3, 2015)

@36058 I agree it is the future of sailing. There are already several manufactures of wing sails and a couple of production yachts for cruising come with the option of a wing sail. You really peaked my interest in this. my sails are good for what I do now, but when I go do big blue I will need new beefier rigging and a main sheet. I have been researching ultra light aircraft wings, I just need to figure out how to attach the wing to my boat. I believe my mast is a complex shape, but I will double check when I get back to the boat. I will be sailing at least 3 days a week until I have finished beefing up my boat to leave.


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## Durp (Jul 3, 2015)

For all those interested, here is some good info on building a wing. http://affordaplane.com/alumribs.html


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## 36058 (Jul 3, 2015)

Jim, the wings you need for a wingsail are symmetrical wings, same profile on the top and bottom of the wing section. They can be built a whole lot cheaper and lighter than airplane wings because an airplane can't even lift off the ground until it is moving 60 mph. Which means it is at all times in flight enduring at least 4 times as much stress as a wingsail in a 30 knot wind. 

https://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs...-001&fr2=piv-web&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

The exact dimensions of the airfoil vary according to the speed of the wind your craft is designed to encounter, but the wing section should be approx 15% as thick as it is wide with a moderate radius at the leading edge. 

The racing wingsail craft use asymmetrical airfoils which are slightly more efficient, but they have moving parts and therefore more controls and are much more difficult and expensive to construct.


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## that one guy (Jul 21, 2015)

I couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread, but my 2¢ is start in VERY light wind, I mean better to be dead in the water with no wind and need the motor than have too much wind.
And use only your head sail, DON'T USE THE MAIN SAIL!!!
A 115 jib is probably what you got (comes a couple feet past the mast) with wind as your port side, your fighting with your rudder to keep straight by pointing your tiller stick at the head sail billowing over the starboard gunwhale, tacking reverses everything to the opposite side.
The main sail is not really necessary at first, once your comfy with how to operate it then you can start fuckin around with the main, just make sure it has at least one or more reefing points (little tassels running through the center of the sail parallel to the mainsail boom - these are to tie around the boom and make the mainsail shorter and thus catch less wind for when in stiff windy conditions) you never use a main sail in gail force winds, they tear, break booms/masts and whip the shit out of crew.


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## that one guy (Jul 21, 2015)

Ok now I read the whole thread, are you sure that the bottom is not fowled at all? I mean you can scrape from up top all you want, but you can have a variable forrest growing off you rudder/keel creating so much drag you have little to no control over the vessel - thats what happened to me with my first free sailboat, I had no steering at all, didn't matter what I did, luckily I too had a motor, it took almost an hour to make it back across the estuary to the marina with all the drag fromunda.


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## Karol Triskel (Oct 4, 2015)

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=605


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## Karol Triskel (Oct 4, 2015)

Hi Jim ! Only one way for You. Sailing, sailing and ......more sailing. I do not understand why You are thinking about some future sails (wingsail) .Get same experience first , work with sail, jib , main , main and jib . Understand how its works. And sail, sail and more sail  Ask Sailors dont be shy  Listen Your yacht, yacht tell You everything  Understand the water, wind, tide and stream . Technic like heaving to  Sailing under jib is easy but tacking is hard sometimes . That why sail, sail and more sail  I am open to help


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## Matt Derrick (Oct 6, 2015)

Karol Triskel said:


> http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=605



please do not post links without some kind of explanation.


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## Karol Triskel (Oct 6, 2015)

Ok. I did read about Columbia26 mk2 in this post. I would show what kind of yacht is it. Sometimes it is very helpfull.


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