# how to deal with mainstream thinking and anti-anarchists



## anne (Feb 6, 2010)

I need some advice, friends.

I wrote something for my blog about my stance on politics/finances, but I wanted to post it here first with people who I trust before sending it off to the general public. I also have a video that I'm working on editing for it. It's just bits of a final project from a speech class my partner and I took last summer, which is mostly summarizing Zeitgeist: Addendum, Money as Debt, and The Best That Money Can't Buy with ideas from the story of stuff, technocracy, the venus project but without talking about religion or a resource based economy. So here it is and please let me know if you think there is anything that is difficult to understand or that might offend people. I figured that since many of you consider yourselves to be anarchists, this would be a good place to start for constructive comments without being attacked by people who are new to this way of thinking. 

(Background info for those of you not familiar with my situation: I’m moving into a box truck in a few months, going through an intentional foreclosure and have 50k in credit card debt plus student loans, not able to pay for any of it. This is in response to several angry readers about the moral issues behind not honoring agreements with credit companies and the effects that has on individuals, communities and society as a whole.)

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We have received several comments and emails regarding the subject of money, credit, and the financing of our project. Reading back, I see that we haven't explained this adequately. I realize that our choices may seem outrageous when they are out of context and we apologize for the lack of clarity. We are not looking to live off of society or some other "easy-living" welfare scheme. Nothing about the life we have chosen is going to be (or has been) easy. One of the statements in our introduction may have played a large role in this misconception. I said that we intend to “spend our life doing whatever makes us happy” and to many, that might sound like we mean kicking back, eating freedom fries, and watching American Idol. What would make us happy is to spend nearly every waking moment thinking about, planning, and conducting independent research that is not corrupted by the vested interest of an employer or driven by our own financial inadequacies. 

In the spirit of full disclosure, our annual income is around $70,000. If you feel upset by our use of retail credit, know that your concern should be directed toward things like our exorbitantly overpriced blankets rather than our new home. The majority of our mobile condo project has been and will continue to be funded with earned income. We have spent a great deal of time without internet access at home, air conditioning, entertainment, etc. so we could afford to pay cash for the truck, mopeds and so on. 

Modern society is founded on several institutions; namely religious, political and banking/economic systems. In turn, our cultural values and ethics are based on beliefs that tend to perpetuate these systems. This is why when someone voices a viewpoint contrary to accepted social norms, it is generally met with hostility and aggression. 

If you want peace, no war, no poverty, no recessions, you can't have profit motives, governments, banks and competition. These things cannot and will never co-exist. I hate to sound cliché but one saying that is applicable in this situation is that the first step to recovery is realizing there is a problem. 

Before I explain it further, I would first like to say that I know many people reading this have already decided to feel negatively about this topic and our choices in general with no real interest in understanding. If you think you may fall into this group, this explanation is not for you. Understanding our viewpoint will take the intention of ridding yourself of preconceptions that are based essentially on misinformation. If you choose to be threatened by information that may contradict your personal religious or political views, it would be a better use of your time to stop reading now. 

Fundamental to all of this is the global monetary system. It is beyond the scope of this post to explain the system in every detail; however, this video presentation, which is comprised of the main points from two short speeches put together for a communications course, should act as a summary of the concepts. If you are interested (and I hope you are) the documentaries cited at the end explain this much more completely. Please watch them.

(insert video)
Parts of speeches to be used in video:


> Clips from my speech:
> 
> Despite all of our differences, there is one thing that we all have in common. SLIDE
> Topic: Money. It is something that plays a role in every single day of our lives, yet not many of us know much about it.
> ...




As you can see, the bank that owns the mortgage on our house did not pay for it. It created the $130k out of thin air, demanded that we then "pay them back" over 30 years (plus interest = multiply by 3.5) and now has possession of REAL property. If we're talking about ethics or fraud, don't look at us. Banks have been robbing people with this scam for generations. Similarly, all of our other credit lines are unsecured loans with the funds created the same way. It is impossible for me to feel remorse simply because I didn't fall for a long con.

So ask yourself: What real service or product do bankers, investors or financial institutions provide? Each new loan, "investment" or "funding" distorts our economic fiasco that much more. In earlier times, making money off of money was considered a spiritual sin (usury) and was condemned by religious leaders. One could argue that whoever produced the goods we purchased with defaulted credit lines deserve to be paid for their real labor (retail and industrial) so it is important to recognize that they actually did get paid by the bank that issued our credit at the time of purchase. No one who deserves payment is being hurt here. 

Our job as human beings, in the simplest sense, is to survive. Money isn't real; the things we need to survive are. Non-living entities like banks and corporations (active manifestations of the monetary system) adulterate society and hinder our chances of survival and the survival of future generations. The logical response as a species is to protect ourselves from this threat and work towards eliminating it. This means not participating in the financial institutions that govern our society, and therefore not perpetuating them. 

This won't be easy. If you need money, a job, a mortgage, you are participating. However, standing passively on the sidelines of this whole mess is not the answer either. It’s not enough to alter anything. So this is the reason for our radical lifestyle changes. If we are to rise above the pitfalls of the "wage slave nightmare" we must be completely self-reliant. We don't pretend to have all the answers. We also don't delude ourselves into thinking that society is necessarily fixable at this time, but the point of life is doing the best you can with the materials available to you, and we will continue to search for the most practical solutions to these problems for the rest of our lives. 

I know that some of you are thinking, “What about the people who work in the banks? They’re not intentionally bad people just because the company who employs them unethically makes money simply by having more than the rest of us.” My answer is: What about them? As a former bank employee, I can understand how this is a hard pill to swallow. I cared about my customers and many of them had more interest in me than even my biological family. They’d bring back treats and trinkets with my name on them from their vacations and buy birthday/holiday/wedding gifts for me. Some would stop into the bank even if they didn’t need anything just because they’d think of something they couldn’t wait to tell me. The sincere relationships we have with one another are truly valid, but the context in which we experience them is inexcusable. 

One example of this is that in 1945 there were 8.5 million members of the National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nazis)—all of which either directly or indirectly participated in the murder of six million Jews on the quest for what they considered to be racial purity. Does that mean that these 8.5 million Nazis were evil people? No. Most of them were just doing the jobs that were available to them within the context of their lives and in the political environment of the time. Isn’t that what we’re still doing? 

I’d rather not.


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## anne (Feb 6, 2010)

This is the first part of the video:


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## finn (Feb 6, 2010)

I don't mean to be cynical, but if you want to appeal to mainstream thinkers, you should probably rely more on anecdotes and storytelling to build your case. This might offend your objective side, since stories are easy to twist to persuade a notion that isn't supported by any facts at all, but it works better than anything will bullet points. (unless you're talking about guns, but then that's simple intimidation) I see it as instead of sacrificing everything for the american dream, and paying it to the banks, they can have that american dream of a house, a mortgage, the suv, etc that they marketed to you. This is because you've decided to create your own american dream, but it'll be on your own terms and not the banks...


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## anne (Feb 6, 2010)

That's a really good point. I know it's a bit long-winded and not as sugar coated as the posts many people are accustomed to reading. Do you have any suggestions for the kinds of anecdotes or stories that might be effective here? I'm so used to reading about science related topics that my language skills seem to be lacking in the creativity department. 

I don't even care if people agree with what I'm saying, I just want it to be absolutely clear that I am not in support of the government or most aspects of modern society and having moral concerns about anything that goes against it would require me to think it is in the best interest of people to retain these institutions. And I suppose it would help if they could make it through the whole post without losing interest. 

That way, if anyone has a problem with me, their argument would have to be why I should reconsider the government, etc. to be a good thing, not why they think I'm an a-hole for not paying my bills. 

Thanks for reading this and I really appreciate your input.


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## finn (Feb 6, 2010)

Well, not to put any words in your mouth, but for starters you can explain the american dream that the banks and financial institutions market out to people and how it's a lie designed to squeeze every penny and hour from the people and contrast it with what you think is the real american dream that you are aiming for. The anecdote can be a family member or friend or whatever who sacrifices everything for the "american dream" but is left with nothing, not even hope. And the thing about anecdotes (probably what is the most suspect about them) is that the person doesn't even have to be real!

Be sure to include the "living within your means" to your vision of the american dream, so you don't seem like a freeloader. Just remember that while you may have as many facts and history on your side, the way to make people listen is to let them be able to relate to you. Speak as if you are talking to an acquaintance with this, where you are fallible, i.e. falling for others version of the "american dream." If you want to sound like an authority on a subject matter, you can bust out the facts and figures- but just not out in front.

I do appreciate that you are sciency though, not enough people in my opinion are interested in the nitty-gritty of how stuff works. Anyway, I'll critique whatever you post up next!


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## anne (Feb 6, 2010)

Here is the second part of the video:


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## anne (Feb 6, 2010)

Thanks, finn.  

Yeah, it seems like most of the people who have a problem with me think I'm just sponging off everyone else.


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## bote (Feb 7, 2010)

please delete me!


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## anne (Feb 7, 2010)

What do you mean, bote? 

I assume this is a negative reaction to what I wrote, but why? Is there something specific that gets to you? Or is it just an issue specific to forum rules or something along those lines?


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## bote (Feb 7, 2010)

I deleted my post right after I wrote it because I figured it woudn´t be of any interest to you, and there was the chance you would feel attacked, which maybe you did, but I don´t see the opinion I gave as particularly negative. 

The essence of what I was saying was that trying to win at this type of dialogue is futile, you don´t further your own interests by trying to justify yourself, those who are so narrowminded they are unwilling to judge you by your actions are not going to be won over by an essay.

I also mentioned that I thought it was a good exercise in sorting out your own thoughts, so by no means worthless.

this argument was not tailor made to annoy you.
but you´re right, there is something specific that gets to me, I don´t like that zeitgeist movie, it´s the Prius of the video world. Maybe that´s the bad vibe.


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## bote (Feb 7, 2010)

ultimately, I just think you´ll save yourself some headaches if you let them make up their own minds, since it´s what they´ll do anyway.


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## tallhorseman (Feb 7, 2010)

I agree with Bote that people, most people, just don't want to hear. I've tried to wrap my mind around WHY they don't want to hear, and the closest I can come up with is that it's some form of Stockholm Syndrome. 

It's as if we're all drifting down a river. On one side is the wilderness of unknown, and on the other is modern society, and behind them, another wilderness. Society wants you to settle in their wilderness, which is ultimately complete subjugation. Your family lives there, your friends, WalMart, Costco, Nike, etc. 

People on that side go to GREAT lengths to attract you. Everyone knows that they lie, cheat, and steal, but they always have. They're familiar.

But the other side is just an unknown...it's freedom, but no promise of support. Nothing familiar.

The same people that cling to the civilized side are also afraid of death...any unknown for that matter. Which, in itself is pretty ridiculous. Because in my opinion, sleep is as close as we come to death when we're alive. And sleep is really comfortable. So who's to say that death isn't even better???

I can't believe I'm posting this...I sound stupid to ME!!!

E.


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## anne (Feb 7, 2010)

I didn't even see your original post, bote. All I saw was "please delete me" and I thought you meant you wanted someone to delete this thread in general and that hurt my feelings because that's all the feedback I'm used to getting from people. They'll show lots of interest and spend plenty of time attacking me when they don't understand, but when I explain why, then they have little more to say than STFU. 

Anyway, I'm sorry. <3 I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say and feedback from all of you here (even if it's a disagreement, well, especially then) is helpful. 

All of you are right that most people don't even care enough to try to understand. They're not actually interested. Perhaps many of them will start to dislike me enough to stop reading my blog, which would be preferred over reading it anyway and talking shit about me behind my back in forums that I don't participate in. Sigh. 

That's a good point about Zeitgeist. I guess anyone who has watched it and didn't like it will automatically hate what I have to say if it has that same tone, if the topic wasn't enough to deter them already.

That doesn't sound stupid, Tallhorseman. I really like what you had to say about the fear of death and the unknown. I've read that when you're dying, your brain can get a surge of dimethyltryptamine from the pineal gland (like when you're dreaming) which explains the tunnel of light or out of body feelings for some people who are resuscitated. It's actually pretty sweet.


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## LovelyAcorns (Feb 7, 2010)

Honestly, I think the best way to win over the mainstream is to disregard the mainstream and simply try to win over who we can. Along with the subversion/sabotage/placement of explosives in the enemies' propaganda stations, of course. The reason an anarchist movement is hard to pull off is the exact same reason anarchy is plausible: humans are social creatures. The views and opinions of the people around us influences our opinions, and sadly, most of these "people" are just products of the advertising companies. So, nobody believes in anarchy because nobody believes in anarchy. Thus, grow with who we can get, and subvert the spectacle. 

You'll notice the concept of a "decent sized anarchist movement" is rare. We're usually on the border of non-existent, or on the border of insurrection. I know there is some super cool metaphor I should be making about the snowball effect and how its easy to doubt the possibly of an avalanche when its summer, but I obviously couldn't word it right, so this awkward remark is what you get instead.


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## anne (Feb 7, 2010)

LovelyAcorns said:


> Honestly, I think the best way to win over the mainstream is to disregard the mainstream and simply try to win over who we can. Along with the subversion/sabotage/placement of explosives in the enemies' propaganda stations, of course.



Yeah, I'd like to see more of that.


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## tagvolatile (Feb 7, 2010)

I liked it, but I'm inclined to. I also agree with a lot of what has been mentioned in replies, that most mainstream thinkers are obstinate in their views, like to statues. But, as far as story goes, I think a good way, maybe, to not sugarcoat it; but legitimize it more, would be to be less vague on an alternative, people won't abandon there views without. And they could figure out an alternative on their own, but, as this project exemplifies, in an analogical view, that it may be easier to leave the moneta system in the hands of a few dominant men, but much more wasteful and inefficient, as to people not subjecting themselves to puzzle together possible alternatives, and leave it to a more passive way to think, which may lead to wasteful and uneconomical choices.. In relation to fear of the unknown, they'd not take the chance to mentally change to what may seem at first such a drastic opinion, and a first glance may be all that it takes to jettison the idea. blah

It was very enlightening, though.. Hope you keep it up.


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## wizehop (Feb 7, 2010)

Schooling....it all boils down to schooling. The education system is the triumph of the ruling class. Its rule numero 1. You cant compete with years of systematic teaching with an essay or two.

What I'm wondering is, did you decide to shun the American financial system before or after you realized you couldn't pay of what you spent? If you gave up everything before getting behind your words may have a bit more validity. 
The banks don't seam to be so bad when there giving you money, but now that every one over extended them selves the world evil. I don't get it.


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## adragonfly (Feb 7, 2010)

I think your blog is suited for a certain audience. People who have done what you are are doing, people who want to do what you are doing, and people who live vicariously through what you are doing. the 'mainstream' consumer at the mall will most likely not be interested in what you are doing, or be even confused by it. 

I think the speech you are giving may be over the top, im not really sure since i haven't read the emails you have been getting.

personally, i have stopped thinking that some people think "mainstream" and others don't. as i see it, the "mainstream" people haven't had time to think about certain aspects of life because they work 9-5 or whatever other reason. I try to plant the seed of awareness not as the "enemy" or the opposing team but as a person who also wants to live a life full of joy and seek wisdom and knowledge of reality.


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## anne (Feb 8, 2010)

wizehop said:


> Schooling....it all boils down to schooling. The education system is the triumph of the ruling class. Its rule numero 1. You cant compete with years of systematic teaching with an essay or two.



I can understand how you've gotten to this conclusion and agree with that to a certain point, but what about me? Not everyone who shares my views has avoided conventional education. I went to what many would consider to be a decent school when I was a kid and was an honor student for most of that time. Now I have a few months left before I'll have a B.S in Psychology, and it's likely that I'll end up with at least a Master's degree within the next few years as well. Why didn't any of that affect my views to reflect the ideas shared by most of my classmates or teachers?



> What I'm wondering is, did you decide to shun the American financial system before or after you realized you couldn't pay of what you spent? If you gave up everything before getting behind your words may have a bit more validity.



I have the ability to pay my mortgage, all the credit card bills and even after food/utilities/gasoline/etc. I'd have money left over at the end of each month. I have never been unable to (financially) afford any of this.



adragonfly said:


> personally, i have stopped thinking that some people think "mainstream" and others don't. as i see it, the "mainstream" people haven't had time to think about certain aspects of life because they work 9-5 or whatever other reason. I try to plant the seed of awareness not as the "enemy" or the opposing team but as a person who also wants to live a life full of joy and seek wisdom and knowledge of reality.



I like this. You seem like a really sweet person. <3

It makes me think of my dad. He's such a good guy but he's old and exhausted. Sometimes when we're talking about things like this, he literally falls asleep in mid conversation. He has been working more than full time probably since he could walk (grew up on a farm) and continues to work hard, physical labor even now that he is in his mid sixties and cannot afford to retire. (This is not because he made stupid investments or is wasteful in any way with his money, but social security and his dwindling pension are barely enough to cover the cost of basic needs such as housing, utilities, food, etc.) Knowing that the average lifespan for a male in the US is only 74, and this doesn't take into consideration the nature of his work and how that affects mortality... well... Anyway, the point is that I don't even bring it up to him anymore. 

I just wish there weren't so many young people eagerly going down that path. The badwagon is my enemy, not the people on it, but I'm not sure how to make that clear.



tagvolatile said:


> I liked it, but I'm inclined to.



When I really think about what I want, this i it. I want to know people who already get it. Everyone else just makes me sad and tired.


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## connerR (Feb 8, 2010)

I've got a few different views on this. 

First, it's already been said, but: you'll catch people's attention if they can clearly understand and relate to it. A lot of it, I think, is marketing. You could have the best product in the world, but if your ad is just a long list of technical specifications, you're not going to be reaching as many people as possible. 

I've said it before: I just don't think anarchism is possible, at least not here in America. There are groups like the Weathermen and the Yippies that stirred shit up and got a lot of attention, but it seems to me that the path is always the same. They attract young people who are angry. Some time passes. These people get older and begin differing in opinion. The group is dead. But I'm not an expert on these things; it's entirely possible that I'm ill-informed.



adragonfly said:


> personally, i have stopped thinking that some people think "mainstream" and others don't. as i see it, the "mainstream" people haven't had time to think about certain aspects of life because they work 9-5 or whatever other reason. I try to plant the seed of awareness not as the "enemy" or the opposing team but as a person who also wants to live a life full of joy and seek wisdom and knowledge of reality.



I'm starting to get the feeling that certain people are just flat out wired that way. Even if you took them from their job, gave them a paid vacation, even (so they wouldn't worry about money), and showed them a different way of life, they'll still return to that "mainstream" life because they just flat out enjoy it.

An immediate example would be my best friend. He's married, in college getting his masters, etc. He's actively seeking a high paying job so he can get a house and a car and *continue American dream here*. It's what he wants to do, as much as I want to travel across the country and the world, because that's the aspect of life most important to him. Who is wrong and who is right when it comes to how a person lives?


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