# All that BullShit about the collapse of Civilization



## wokofshame

So I'm posting this because many of my friends, I'd say a good third or more in the circles I run in, are always referencing the impending collapse of the system, meaning money markets, economy, electricity, everything powered by elxctricity, phones, computers, mass transit, etc

Well people have been predicting the end of the world since time began... it is sort of the trademark of wingnut philosophies and Jonestown-style cults. 
Also i have observed that people with no $ in the bank , other than me, tend to predict the collapse thing way more often than people with $ in the bank, i.e. something at stake in the present system. Those with nothing to lose wnat to see something new so they predict it.

I really don't see breakdown coming. The police and Army and nat'l guard and shitheads are just as powerful as ever and the biggest economic shitstorm in memory, the great depression, still didnt really change the course the world was heading on.

Interested to hear some responses as I know there's a lot of people on here who believe in the coming breakdown. Specifically, what makes you think now is such a likely time for a collapse to be coming?


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## compass

Well, wanting the collapse of industrial civilization and thinking it's imminent are two different things. I think we have other threads here for the discussion of whether civilization is "good" or "bad" so I'll try to keep it simple and on topic here. In the big picture, you can't argue that civilization won't inevitably collapse, it's entirely dependent on finite resources, while population continues to increase exponentially, fed by industrial agriculture which essentially turns oil into food, yet oil production begins to decline, it will eventually reach a breaking point.

I think alot of the hype about a collapse in the near future is based more on wishful thinking, people had y2k, some now have 2012, etc. I can think of possible scenarios that could have a sudden and unexpected impact, but it wont fall overnight. 

Civilization is a huge mess that has so many complex underlying pressures and conflicts boiling, it's hard to say what the future holds, but no matter what, I think it's going to be ugly.

I think having so much confidence in the unshakeable strength and endurance of the current system is as foolish as "knowing" that the collapse is right around the corner. All you can do is try to live your life by your values, and take it day by day.


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## ridegnu

A collapse of our empire is eniment, it is impossible to say when. I feel our current decline on oil will be our next biggest hit, and I have seen interesting mathematical functions on this happening in 2012. But none the less, we are simply the ruling empire, and every empire has a beginning and an end.


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## Gudj

I agree with the other replies. 
The collapse of civilization isn't "bullshit", its an inevitability. 
It also is alot different than the end of the world.

Your point about people with more money usually being less likely to predict or be in favor of drastic change seems true to me as well. 
Not only is it wishful thinking on their part that things will always be like this (and wishful thinking on our part that it's going to change right now), but it also probably has to do with the perspective of a rich person is probably blind to all the people who are currently living the collapse. 
...I understand that that was a huge generalization. 

If you want to argue against the anti-civ minded people, there are threads for that already.


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## Beegod Santana

I've been hearing about peak oil and the oil into food dillema since the late 90's. As far as I can tell its normally a way for some asshole to milk a bunch of parinoid cattle. I noticed that after michale rupurt (sp?) was exposed for the total fraud that he is the peak oil movement lost it's steam for a few years, but now seems to be back once again. Ya, there's a lot of probelms with the current system, that doesn't mean however that you're getting a real eduction in economics and energy production while sitting in front of your computer looking for signs of a collapse. I find it interesting how so many people who cry about an iminent collapse also seem to advocate for actions to quicken said collapse. If its iminent, why put so much effort in to making it happen?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I sadly think that this current civilization has a lotta life left in it.


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## User Name

I think a major fault of many "collapsists" is that they, whether knowingly or not, analyze this situation in a similar way one would a revolution. The collapse of civilization is not a one time big cataclysmic event, but a process. It could easily be argued that it's already occurring, or has been occurring. Another fault on many people's part is thinking the natural fluctuation of market economies has anything to do with the fall of civilization. 

Also, there aren't "civilizations", there is civilization and it has been one force encompassing thousands of cultures, beliefs, systems. They all had the common theme of densely populated urban living dependent on intensive agriculture. 

I'd rather have the original poster tell me how a system of infinite need with finite resources will survive, as mentioned by compass.


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## Monkeywrench

To answer this question, I think we need to examine what exactly our definition of "Civilization" is..?

Cities? The ability to produce currency? Art? Architecture? Infrastructure? Class systems? Agriculture? It's hard to imagine any of these factors completely disappearing all together as the result of one crisis or another.

Something tells me even the self-righteous, tree-bark eating, dreadie mud-hut village of Earth Firsters would be guilty of displaying traits of the civilization they so villainize. No matter what they decide to rename it all. Human progress, and the need to advance/better understand/control our surroundings (via technology) really has no where to go but forward. It's how it's been since day one, it's how it will always be. 

Despite how magically hippie awesome primitive societies look, we're going to pick antibiotics, nanotechnology and air conditioning over positive vibes and waiting for nature to provide. 

Also: 2012 is bullshit. Stop being afraid of ancient man's esoteric understanding of a complex Universe they simply lacked the tools to fully understand. Just because a calendar ends doesn't mean MAGIC is going to suddenly swoop in and replace common sense.


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## Hollywood

i'm reading endgame by derrick jensen right now


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## compass

Monkeywrench said:


> To answer this question, I think we need to examine what exactly our definition of "Civilization" is..?
> 
> Cities? The ability to produce currency? Art? Architecture? Infrastructure? Class systems? Agriculture? It's hard to imagine any of these factors completely disappearing all together as the result of one crisis or another.



Civilization, as has been stated, is generally the rise of dense centralized populations (urbanization, cities) dependent upon intensive agriculture. All those things you mentioned are culture, and have existed in some form or another since probably the dawn of man, but the extreme complexity and variation of modern culture can only be developed by a population which does not have to play a direct role in securing the means of their nourishment and survival, ie, division of labor, specialization, etc. 



> Something tells me even the self-righteous, tree-bark eating, dreadie mud-hut village of Earth Firsters would be guilty of displaying traits of the civilization they so villainize. No matter what they decide to rename it all. Human progress, and the need to advance/better understand/control our surroundings (via technology) really has no where to go but forward. It's how it's been since day one, it's how it will always be.
> 
> Despite how magically hippie awesome primitive societies look, we're going to pick antibiotics, nanotechnology and air conditioning over positive vibes and waiting for nature to provide.



As human animals, our main means of survival is the use of our intellect to manipulate resources from our environment to fulfill our needs. The main underlying problem is whether we recognize ourselves as an integral part of a localized ecosytstem, and whose influence now reaches out into the entire biosphere, and live life aware and in balance with that, or that we are exceptional beings, exempt from the laws of nature, here to dominate and control our environments, and technology may have gotten us in this mess, but if we keep trying, it will also solve all the problems. (I know, it's an oversimplified false dichotomy heavily influenced by personal bias, but you get my point).

We've been agrarian for about 10,000 years, only a couple hundred industrial, and only a few decades highly technological. It's absurd to think that our modern way of life is the single, inevitable, natural result of the progression of collective human thought since the first monkey used a stone to break open a nut. I don't think our species existed on this planet for millions of years sitting around with their thumbs up their asses "waiting for nature to provide." We did just fine before all this.

Alot of people have romanticized notions of hunter/gatherer societies, but it's a difficult life, and many societies did strip resources and had to move on because they made their environment uninhabitable. Unfortunately, our modern system of industiral agriculture is toxifying the total environment, destroying top soil and is thus entirely dependent upon petroleum based fertilizers, pesticides, fungicides, etc., mechanized production and transportation, etc. all dependent on a finite resource. (and no, I'm not into the peak oil "movement" nor a paranoid sheep. even many anti-peak oil folks concede that oil is a finite resource that will _eventually_ peak). I wont even start on consumer products.

So this is what you consider "forward", "progress"? Does the pursuit of novelties and artificial comforts, and of "high" technology justify the consequences? Modern medicine mostly treats problems that are caused by industrial civilization, cancer rates keep going up, all kinds of crazy diseases are popping up, people are obese, everyone and their mother is on anti-depressants, etc. Of course people are going to "pick" these things, but we also live in a culture where advertising agencies have psychologists on staff to exploit the developmental vulnerabilities of children, where people's identity and self worth are defined by their consumer behavior. Can we really trust their "choices"?



> Also: 2012 is bullshit. Stop being afraid of ancient man's esoteric understanding of a complex Universe they simply lacked the tools to fully understand. Just because a calendar ends doesn't mean MAGIC is going to suddenly swoop in and replace common sense.



Can't disagree with you there.

I think we've strayed off the original intent of this thread, if you want to continue we should move this to one of the other threads about civilization.

As a counter to the original topic, what do people think of "transitional" people, "cultural creatives" etc.? There are alot of people out there doing alot of good things, movements for supporting local agriculture (CSAs, etc.), sustainable agriculture, DIY culture, people moving towards more localized and sustainable economies and ways of living. Do you think it's possible for civilization not to collapse at all, but to have people shift towards a better way of living, and possibly preserving the "good" technologies, and discarding the "bad"? Bringing back some of the old time way of living, like our grand parents and great grand parents, but with modern twists? I'm just curious about what people think about it, I've been meeting some really optimistic people lately who are doing things like this, and they think they can save the world.


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## MrD

Widerstand said:


> Blah blah blah.... Cry me a river....


 
care to chime in, or is that all you have to say on the topic?


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## compass

Widerstand said:


> Cry me a river....



I KNEW you were a Justin Timberlake fan! 






Te callas o te callo Wider


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## Pheonix

the idea of civilization falling is not taking into account that civilization can change. it is just a matter of time before we run out of oil, but when that happens civilization will not fall instead they will simply find an alternative fuel source. the change might not be any better cause the HAVEs will influence the change in order to make sure that they still control everything and the HAVE NOTs will still not have nothing.
just one quick thing about 2012, the maya indians never believed that the world was going to end their calender is based on sun cycles and they correctly predicted when the current sun cycle will come to an end. that could cause some environmental changes but nothing catastrophic.

it is in our evolutionary nature to change


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## bote

this conversation just won't be the same without ibrr...


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## cranberrydavid

I could show you some old farts in England who don't know the British Empire has collapsed. I could also introduce you to old farts in the USofA who'll tell you the country went to hell in the 60's and 70's and has never recovered.

Sometimes collapse looks less like a hand grenade and more like a tire with a slow leak............


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## simpletoremember

I'd have to agree all great empires fall.

But, I have had tons of friends ranting about this for years. Such as there is no gold backing the economy, but only oil and how the Amerikan government is so far in debt to the central banks, and even other countries (such as china). So it's bound to happen, when? Who fuckin' knows.

I also have this friend that has been ranting about how that we as people don't even know exactly what year it is, and that we are all being lied to. He also listens to a lot of Alex Jones, and is sort of on the wingnut side of things. But some of the shit he says makes since sometimes? How are we to know what Time or even Year it is? because somebody told us?


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## Gudj

simpletoremember said:


> I'd have to agree all great empires fall.
> 
> But, I have had tons of friends ranting about this for years. Such as there is no gold backing the economy, but only oil and how the Amerikan government is so far in debt to the central banks, and even other countries (such as china). So it's bound to happen, when? Who fuckin' knows.
> 
> I also have this friend that has been ranting about how that we as people don't even know exactly what year it is, and that we are all being lied to. He also listens to a lot of Alex Jones, and is sort of on the wingnut side of things. But some of the shit he says makes since sometimes? How are we to know what Time or even Year it is? because somebody told us?


 
Ok, it's _really_ important to distinguish between Alex Jones and career conspiracy theorists, as well as concerns about how the United States is going to collapse from "The collapse of civilization". Like, really important.

The financial collapse of the U.S.A. (and all the people conspiracy theorists want to scapegoat for it) can be argued about, changed, saved, revolutionized, whatever. The collapse of civilization is on a whole other level, which totally disregards the seeming importance of Alex Jones, the U.S.A., or any single crisis. The collapse of civilization is well underway, the argument is about when it will be complete.


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## Teko

It's simple. Money will reach it's zenith and then become worthless, stocks will crash, so will the big ceo's. It's all dominos after that for lack of words. It is not that hard to foresee. Just look at history and the patterns concerning money and greed. Rise and fall? it all has happened over and over again. Before it's all over tribalism will reign dominant as the majority lifestyle, just you wait.


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## Failure Artist

We don't know what year it really is? Does he believe that weird but intriguing idea that 614 - 911 A.D. never happened? Damn Interesting &bull; The Phantom Time Hypothesis


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## wildboy860

compass said:


> As a counter to the original topic, what do people think of "transitional" people, "cultural creatives" etc.? There are alot of people out there doing alot of good things, movements for supporting local agriculture (CSAs, etc.), sustainable agriculture, DIY culture, people moving towards more localized and sustainable economies and ways of living. Do you think it's possible for civilization not to collapse at all, but to have people shift towards a better way of living, and possibly preserving the "good" technologies, and discarding the "bad"? Bringing back some of the old time way of living, like our grand parents and great grand parents, but with modern twists? I'm just curious about what people think about it, I've been meeting some really optimistic people lately who are doing things like this, and they think they can save the world.[/] very well said. I can't agree more.


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## wildboy860

abstracted said:


> It's simple. Money will reach it's zenith and then become worthless, stocks will crash, so will the big ceo's. It's all dominos after that for lack of words. It is not that hard to foresee. Just look at history and the patterns concerning money and greed. Rise and fall? it all has happened over and over again. Before it's all over tribalism will reign dominant as the majority lifestyle, just you wait.


 
I really really like this statement too. I can't agree more.


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## Tao_of_Pi

The collapse of Civilization, lol wut? True, in the past _certain_ civilizations have collapsed in the wake of extraneous internal and external conflicts, but it has NEVER caused the apocalyptic fallout so many believe it would. Rome may have fallen, but it didn't throw Europe into a constant state of anarchy. The control of the territories simply fell into the hands of the local governments and life went on as usual for 99% of the population. And don't forget there were a number of other civilizations that existed concurrently with the fall of Rome yet remained untouched by it's demise.

It's mildly amusing to listen to some people talk about this type of subject matter when more often than not they have only the most basic understanding of macro-economics. And the information they do get is usually from a pamphlet written by a guy who supposedly read a bunch of books on the subject and somehow figured out capitalism is a giant conspiracy orchestrated by the Freemasons. These fringe idiots can mouth off all they want and claim some of the most retarded bullshit I've ever heard without backing any of their claims with hard peer-validated science. And it's sad because these guys take advantage of the fact that some people maintain a healthy skepticism of their government by glossing over things that should be scrutinized and investigated in favor of pimping crazy conspiracy theories that'll sell books and further their personal agendas. The govt does lie to you, but 95% they're not, and you need to be vigilant about that 5% instead of reading insane bullshit on the internet. I was watching Penn & Teller last night where they were discussing vaccines, and they were talking about the doctor who first published the study that suggested vaccines caused autism. For years this Andrew Wakefield was viewed as a hero and crusader against the governments and pharmaceutical companies, only to find out rather recently that a group of lawyers paid Wakefield off to doctor his study, so the lawyers could sue the shit out of the pharmaceutical companies responsible for producing the vaccines. The moral of the story is, don't trust ANYBODY, everyone's got an agenda they're trying to push.

As far as Wildboy's comment about more eco-friendly living, I'm not sure. Currently the US is actually experiencing a period of rural flight. Unfortunately this is only happening in agricultural communities, most of the rural areas located around large amounts of wilderness are actually gaining populations. It's kind of unfortunate because a lot of these people are who you'd consider "yuppies" just looking to surround themselves with wildlife and to pretend they're living "green". This not only causes excessive development on land that was once unoccupied but it drives up property values making it extremely expensive for certain groups to live there. And although I highly doubt everyone is going to start living eco-friendly, I think some groups/communities will adopt it in some capacity or another.


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## nivoldoog

I just hope and pray it collapses, the ride down should be hella interesting.


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## Failure Artist

Just don't have any illusions that you'll certainly be one of the people that survive the chaos of the collapse.


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## joaquim33

if capitalism can survive through two world wars, the carpet bombing and destruction of major european cities, death of 100s of millions of workers/soldiers/civilians, and come out stronger and more on top then ever before, in fact actually profit from these events, why do people think something like peak oil or climate chaos is going to stop it? folks should read naomi klein's "the shock doctrine."


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## Dial

Sadly capitalism probably isn't going anywhere soon. But it never hurts to try to destroy it.


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## notconnerR

I dont see what the problem is with capitalism.


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## Pheonix

notconnerR said:


> I dont see what the problem is with capitalism.


 
I don't think most of the anti-capitalist people would know how to survive without the excessive waste of capitalism


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## notconnerR

Very intriguing point: the waste byproduct of the capitalist machine is actually fueling the anti-capitalists. 

Biting the hand that feeds you?


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## Mouse

all governments collapse BUT I don't really think that effects each of us as individuals as much as people like to think. Normal everyday folks still live in Rome...


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## wokofshame

OK i just wanted to say i feel a bit differently than i did when i started this thread and more like say compass....i dunno if it will be soon and my guess is not in my lifetime but the more i see the more i think within say 1000 years we'll go PING! just hopefully those bastards dont nuclear holocaust us.....that will fuck up everything, i'm not too sure i want to be gathering nuts and berries if i'm glowing in the dark


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## plagueship

interesting thread.

personally i think a lot of people who self-assign/accept the role of social antagonists are not likely, for better or worse, to really understand how that system functions. i actually tend to think marx's prediction is coming true as far as the increasing rationalization tendency of capitalism causing it to evolve into socialism. a more eco-friendly, more gay-positive, less-racist and less-sexist version of capitalism with more welfare, is probably the solution to this crisis. the reason is less because it is 'better' and more to do with the way that information and communication technologies have transformed society over the past few decades (that is, 'the development of the productive forces'). 

look at the 'arab spring': capitalism has the tendency to produce more misery and economic disaster than it is currently capable of recovering from (or, more like from the social unrest provoked thereby). gay marriage, legal weed, relaxed immigration policy, all these things are in the near future in the u.s., the tea party (and etc) are dinosaurs but they are not wrong to observe that we are heading towards a kind of socialism. and guess what? our lives will continue to be ruled by abstract economic logic. it will be less horrible, but somehow more horrible because more stable.

sorry this is a little rushed and i can unpack my reasoning a bit more for anyone who is interested. in the meantime i would highly recommend as a reference the essays from the journal TIQQUN, 'the cybernetic hypothesis' and ''theory of the young girl'. i am not a huge fan of 'the coming insurrection' or anything like that but i do think they have some insightful ideas about our current society.


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## plagueship

i also wanted to point out that the idea that some kind of major world transformation is inevitable and imminent has been a major theme in radical politics for at least a thousand years, from the "millenarian" medieval christian heretics to certain anarchist and student protests of recent years, which involved a lot of people who seem to believe, or said they believed, that the current recession was the beginning of the end of capitalism (which would inevitably be followed by anarcho-communism, right?). i think this perspective is generally part naive idealism and youthful arrogance, and sometimes just a straight-up rhetorical ploy. either way it's at best ignorant and at worst utterly manipulative, and even if people really believe what they are saying, maybe especially if they believe it, then anyone or anything can be used and sacrificed for the supreme importance of the coming revolution/collapse/etc. (this is what i don't like about TCI, right down to the title!)



joaquim33 said:


> if capitalism can survive through two world wars, the carpet bombing and destruction of major european cities, death of 100s of millions of workers/soldiers/civilians, and come out stronger and more on top then ever before, in fact actually profit from these events, why do people think something like peak oil or climate chaos is going to stop it? folks should read naomi klein's "the shock doctrine."



i haven't read the shock doctrine but it sounds cool and this is a good comment.

abstracted i'm sorry but i think the only thing you are firmly planted in is wishful thinking.


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## L.C.

rome, egypt,atlantis. all great civilizations crumble sooner or later. history repeats itself. don't blieve it pick up a book. not when, but how is my question.


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## plagueship

L.C. said:


> rome, egypt,atlantis. all great civilizations crumble sooner or later. history repeats itself. don't blieve it pick up a book. not when, but how is my question.


 
fair enough (except that modern civilization is directly descended from rome etc), but for every year in which there is a major collapse of some sort, there are 500 or 1000 where it doesn't (but everyone still talks about/hopes for/fears it)


i do think it's really interesting what a preoccupation it is and i wonder if it's more or less now than 100 or 800 years ago or whatever. people live in submission to social order because it is supposed to protect them from disaster and chaos, but then what do they do after work? they watch movies about cities being destroyed, they go to church and hear the preacher talk about revelations... there is a great attraction to imagining the end of all this, as though it's the only thing that keeps us putting up with 'all this'.


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## Gudj

Having a commonly agreed upon definition of words like Civilization, Collapse, Culture, ect. would really make these threads / discussions more interesting and engaging.


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## Dameon

Gudj said:


> Having a commonly agreed upon definition of words like Civilization, Collapse, Culture, ect. would really make these threads / discussions more interesting and engaging.


That's what dictionaries are for.

Civilization as a whole isn't going to collapse. I don't even think that the US is going to collapse anytime soon. We're still one of the wealthiest and most powerful nations in the world, regardless of how badly our economy's going to us. We're still better off than most of the world. Our economy's currently on the upswing, not the downswing. Yes, we're dependent on oil, but we already have alternatives if we run out of oil.

I think that people who are on the lowest level of society (economically) like to envision the collapse of our civilization because they feel like they'd be somehow more equipped to survive than other people. Maybe we are...but I think that we probably aren't.

Personally, I think that with the development of technology speeding up all the time, and the benefits that technology can eventually bring to everybody, we're more likely to come into a golden age within our lifetimes than we are to see the end of the world.

As for the environment, we're becoming more and more aware of our impact on it, and how we can fix the damage we're doing. Most people these days are starting to accept climate change as a fact, where even 10 years ago you'd have had a hard time convincing many people it exists. With the advancements in technology and our understanding of the environment, we probably will be able to fix or at least handle any problems we have. Especially in a first world country, we shouldn't have anything to really worry about.

I can't wait until 2012 has come and gone, so I can point and laugh at all the people who've been predicting disasters and major changes and what-not. Unfortunately, then people will just pick another year to be the end of the world, because people as a whole are obsessed with the end of the world being just around the corner. All throughout recorded history, people have been predicting the end of the world, and probably as soon as language was invented I'm sure there was somebody who figured out how to say "the end is nigh!"


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## derailed

Dameon said:


> With the advancements in technology and our understanding of the environment, we probably will be able to fix or at least handle any problems we have. Especially in a first world country, we shouldn't have anything to really worry about.


 
I've got to admit, I'm rubbing my eyes and staring slack jawed at my computer screen trying to figure out if you really just wrote that.


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## SkyeDawg

Yeah, I hear lots of people, particularly from the FAR LEFT and the FAR RIGHT predicting if not wishing for armageddon or some shit. First it was y2k now it's 2012... whatever.

What's sick about that is that when you wish for system collapse you're wishing for the deaths of billions of innocent men, women, and children.

Bend the track, bend the track. Don't break it.


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## Gudj

SkyeDawg said:


> when you wish for system collapse you're wishing for the deaths of billions of innocent men, women, and children.


 
That can be true, and doesn't usually bother people who are anti-civ. Including myself.


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## Dameon

derailed said:


> I've got to admit, I'm rubbing my eyes and staring slack jawed at my computer screen trying to figure out if you really just wrote that.


 
Just because I don't have a pessimistic view of technology and its impact on our future doesn't mean I'm crazy. I'm so tired of people thinking that advancements in technology are terrible and going to inevitably doom us. Technology is a good thing. It enriches all our lives, and makes things possible that people couldn't have imagined 100 years ago. Good things, like it or not, even if some bad comes with the good. In another 100 years, who knows what will be possible that we can't imagine now?


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## Gudj

Dameon said:


> Just because I don't have a pessimistic view of technology and its impact on our future doesn't mean I'm crazy. I'm so tired of people thinking that advancements in technology are terrible and going to inevitably doom us. Technology is a good thing. It enriches all our lives, and makes things possible that people couldn't have imagined 100 years ago. Good things, like it or not, even if some bad comes with the good. In another 100 years, who knows what will be possible that we can't imagine now?


That veiwpoint usually comes from naivety, not crazieness. Like I said earlier, you and I might define technology differently, so I won't comment on that, but I will say that you either come from a place of incredible privilege and stayed there (which doesn't seem likely if you are a traveling kid), or you haven't really thought/read that much on the subject. 

Whatever apparent benefit or luxury we have in the elite parts of the "1st world" due to increases in technology (or anything else really), comes at the expense of everyone else, and that everyone else is the mysterious body that allows us to have 60cent tacos at tacobell and any fruit we want all year around, and affordable gasoline, and hospitals equipped with multi-million dollar pieces of machinery. Gas is worth more than 4 dollars a gallon, and when we get coffee or fruit from other places in the world, the workers are most likely taking a loss. Who would give everything they have to US for an unfair price? No-one unless they were threatened and had no alternative. More relevantly though, the producers of the world can't keep getting everything stolen from them to keep us comfortable, because shit runs out and economic systems fail. You must be aware of the extreme suffering and unrest in poor parts of the world, especially in the global south. If you are fooling yourself into think that that unrest WON'T or CAN'T come here, then maybe you are crazy.


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## wokofshame

Dameon said:


> Just because I don't have a pessimistic view of technology and its impact on our future doesn't mean I'm crazy. I'm so tired of people thinking that advancements in technology are terrible and going to inevitably doom us. Technology is a good thing. It enriches all our lives, and makes things possible that people couldn't have imagined 100 years ago. Good things, like it or not, even if some bad comes with the good. In another 100 years, who knows what will be possible that we can't imagine now?


 "I dunno man, i still jerk off manually"

Technology CAN be eco-friendly, I agree. I also think it will become largely so in the next several hundred years, unfortunately probably by necessity.For instance, most of the neccessary minerals we ever will need are sitting in easily accesible landfills currently. Mining the Earth will become a thing of the past once landfill-mining gets big.
There have been catastrophic planet-changing events earlier in earth's history-meteorites hitting, supervolcanoes such as Yellowstone erupting and rendering a large portion of a continent uninhabitable to mammals, I do fear such an event happening from Nuclear War. If we get in a Nuclear War, (and what are those nukes out west there for if not to be used?) 
that will be another history-changing catstrophe.


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## Dameon

> Whatever apparent benefit or luxury we have in the elite parts of the "1st world" due to increases in technology (or anything else really), comes at the expense of everyone else, and that everyone else is the mysterious body that allows us to have 60cent tacos at tacobell and any fruit we want all year around, and affordable gasoline, and hospitals equipped with multi-million dollar pieces of machinery.



I wouldn't call Taco Bell "technology". And advances in technology do not only improve life in first world countries. Genetic modification of crops means that people can grow crops in places they otherwise couldn't, or crops can produce more, which means people who would otherwise starve to death can eat. There are people all over the world who would be starving if not for that technology. The internet helps people all over the world; thanks to projects like the Simputer ( Internet Access for Poor Countries, by Paul "the soaring" Siegel ) with access to the information the internet provides, people can gain information they couldn't have had before. Medical advances help people all over the world; it's actually easier to get affordable medical care in some third-world countries than it is here in the US. You can go to India and use a hospital with the same multi-million dollar equipment as ours for a fraction of the price.

I've done my research...I've thought and read plenty on the subject. I can show countless examples of how advancements in technology aren't just helping the privileged, but also helping people in every corner of the world. I was born poor, raised poor, and have been homeless for 5 years. The wealthy may get the bulk of the benefits, but as technology becomes more ubiquitous it spreads to everybody. Hell, I have a laptop because it was given to me by somebody that didn't need it anymore. I have a cell phone because it's cheap to have a prepaid phone.

What you're talking about isn't even technology, it's economics, although enabled by technology. Technology doesn't create the situations for workers to be exploited in third world countries; greed does. Technology DOES help mitigate the horrible conditions some people live in, and with time, it can give those people the tools to give themselves better living conditions.


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## Beegod Santana

I really don't expect any massive collapse of society as a whole in my lifetime. At the same time however I kinda appreciate the anti-civ crowd. Every day each one of us has thousands of opportunities to live closer to our planet, or to further our separation from it. Although I don't agree with the anti-civ crowd on a lot of issues, I think its important that people bring up these issues. Its kinda like religion to me. People can't come up with a logical reason to be good to one another when there's so much to be gained through screwing your fellow person over. So they use religion to tell them that if they aren't nice to each other and the earth god will get angry and punish them. The anti-civ movement is basically saying that if we can't learn to live with each other and the earth, nature's wrath will destroy us and everything we've achieved as a species. Thus a logical reason to be kind to the earth and each other. 

I personally don't need god or the threat of civilization's collapse to convince me to be good to the earth and to love my brothers and sisters, but its nice that's someone's offering these suburbanite zombies a way out.


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## Wasteland

I will state facts and see where that leads us.

Technological possibilities to collapse civilizations:

Nuclear fire
Biological Warfare

Natural possibilities to collapse civilizations:

Overpopulation
Diminished resources
Massive earthquakes 

Political threats to civilization:

Conflicting interest of capitalism and communism
Religious conflicts of the middle east
Greed fueled totalitarian regiments 

On a threat analysis scale, there is the justification, ability, lack of fear for consequences by these nations, and alternatives are running out (JACA threat analysis technique). 

Based on this information, the collapse of not only civilization, but the world is likely. Suggest immediate resolution.


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## Missy

Wasteland said:


> I will state facts and see where that leads us.
> 
> Technological possibilities to collapse civilizations:
> 
> Nuclear fire
> Biological Warfare
> 
> Natural possibilities to collapse civilizations:
> 
> Overpopulation
> Diminished resources
> Massive earthquakes
> 
> Political threats to civilization:
> 
> Conflicting interest of capitalism and communism
> Religious conflicts of the middle east
> Greed fueled totalitarian regiments
> 
> On a threat analysis scale, there is the justification, ability, lack of fear for consequences by these nations, and alternatives are running out (JACA threat analysis technique).
> 
> Based on this information, the collapse of not only civilization, but the world is likely. Suggest immediate resolution.


 
Thanks for stating the _facts_.


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## Diagaro

One of my favorite quotes from fight club: On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.

Second favorite: In the world I see - you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying strips of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway.

Don't waste my mental time hoping, I pray for fires and quakes, screams of fear the smell of burning flesh. Gunshots ringing out like perverted 4th of july fireworks with no pretty light bloom echoing through the streets of every major city that still stands - If I close my eyes in a dark mood day I can almost see it!
IF it happens, I'll just do the same thing I have been doing and a little more, impunitively though.
And while all you morons are breaking shop windows and grabbing computers and pot from the dispensaries I'll be down at the harbor picking out the most grand and fast sailing ship I can find to hell with willing crew I'll take the first 4 people I see at the harbor at gunpoint and make them sail my prize away anybody that approaches me had better shoot to kill or bow down in total submission War Loard Diagaro Enthio ruthless pirate captain 
/fantasy


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## plagueship

the fear (or reality) of emerging instability or catastrophe presents unlimited possible justifications for authoritarian systems. a world that continues to legitimize itself primarily through the indefinite management of its own collapse. crisis management has become the new paradigm of governance.


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## Dameon

Here's some other facts:
Overpopulation forces advancement of technology to support the world's growing population. Medical technology, genetic modification of food, housing, even advancements in space technology are pushed forward by overpopulation. Overpopulation can be controlled, as well; China is evidence of that.

Diminishing resources also push technology forward. We already have a variety of renewable alternatives to fossil fuels, and renewable sources of energy.

Nuclear weapons are becoming less of a threat, not more. The odds of full-on nuclear war in the future are decreasing, not increasing, as nuclear weapons are decommissioned and the large countries which have the nuclear weapons (and aren't going to use them because of mutual assured destruction) keep other countries from developing nuclear weapons (a difficult task even without opposition). Besides, without nuclear weapons, we wouldn't have nuclear energy, which like it or not, is a great source of energy with far less environment impact than coal.

There aren't any large, true communist countries to pose any threat. China may call themselves communist, but they're buying and selling things like any other country. The cold war is over; communism and capitalism aren't at odds anymore...they've realized that they both like to make money.

Ideological differences are less dangerous these days than in the past; holy wars don't happen in large, developed countries. The threat of religious differences is decreasing, not increasing, as communication technology promotes increased understanding.

You're just looking at the negative side of everything...You're not really analyzing anything, just seeing what you want to see. There aren't only downsides to any of the things you've brought up, and problems bring solutions. Adversity pushes technology forward, and people tend to be pretty determined to overcome obstacles.


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## littlejasonsandiego

i dont see anything big happenning in the usa anytime soon. probably in my lifetime. although ill still sit, wait, and hope..


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## outskirts

Tonight I have two rabbits slow cooking in the crock pot. I have this rule, if it eats my garden patch... I will eat it.
If civilization were to collapse tomorrow, sure, I would probably be using a different method to shoot and cook the
rabbits, but rules such as this one would still stand, if not have even more importance.


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## Beegod Santana

plagueship said:


> the fear (or reality) of emerging instability or catastrophe presents unlimited possible justifications for authoritarian systems. a world that continues to legitimize itself primarily through the indefinite management of its own collapse. crisis management has become the new paradigm of governance.


 
What that guy said.


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## wokofshame

Whistler, I'm not sure your latter paragraphs are facts. 
The nukes we have decomissioned are older, less powerful ones. The nukes we're keepinng are in some cases 100x more powerful than the ones we're dismantling. It sounds great on paper "1000's of nukes dismantled" until you realize that they were built in the 1950's and are technologically obsolete. 
China just launched their 1st super-ship aircraft carrier. You don't build aircraft carriers unless you want to invade other nations. 
Yeah, they like making money. There have been plenty of wars between nations that like making money. England and Germany for one.


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## Nelco

i believe it because i can't ignore whats happening to people around me


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## Earth

Religion is the only thing keeping the poor from slaughtering the rich. 

Sooner or later folks are going to realize that here it's just one government with parties a, b, and c.... yet there's no difference - the same policies still get pushed through no matter who's at the helm. 

Are we doomed??

I don't know - but I ain't sweating it because there ain't nothing I can do about it anyway EXCEPT set myself up to be able to survive or at least somehow exist without depending on other's.
If I do it right, I'll be completely self sufficiant within 11 years, maybe 8 if I push it a little...

Social Security was supposed to end back in 1983 or so (yes, I'm older and remember this kind of stuff) and here we are almost 30 years later hearing the same shit over and over again.

But is anyone going to do something to ensure the people are protected who's in office today??
Doubt it very much, yet the system here as shitty as it seems still somehow seems to work....

I'm from W. Germany.
I got to spend some time in E.Berlin as recently as 1981...

My folks on my mothers side lost everything during WWII to the Russians.
They only survived due to a barttering system, as they had a farm - and people would trade items for food / corn liquior etc... since money meant nothing once their system collapsed.

I see things a little differently because I'm from a different generation, but this does not mean I don't agree with many of the previous posts here - because I do, and very much so in most cases...
I was also going somewhere with this, but the Manaschewitz is really kicking in now so you'll have to forgive me for losing track of thought and composure here....

"If the kids are united, they will never be divided"


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## Earth

(actually I meant potato vodka, not corn liquior - although it's possible they were making that too)


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## Nagrom

Mouse said:


> all governments collapse BUT I don't really think that effects each of us as individuals as much as people like to think. Normal everyday folks still live in Rome...


 
agreed and yeah we had the great depresion in the 20s but does no one rember we just got out of/kinda still are in a resesion? as a whole i think we'll be good for a while and as individules we slowly destroy ourself a little everyday. and im sure none of will we around to partake in the fun when the us falls so im not to worried about it.


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## Linda/Ziggy

Civilization collapse ??

Bring it on.

Human being are parasites, we devour we destroy and we put our species above
all others in nature & nature it's self.

Unless as a species, as a whole we change and start healing instead
of destroying I will keep longing for human species collapse.

Do I romanticize pre industrial or tribal cultures - NO WAY.
Things were smaller scale and there were alot less of us, (yeaaay!)
but there were (and still are) some fucked up oppressive 'cultural practices'
and destruction of species, flora & fauna by tribal peoples.
The industrial revolution just did it on a larger scale.

Basically I try to live as healing & positive a life as I can and try to make a
positive impact on the world around me on a daily basis.
It's all we can do.

I like the idea of a non discriminating world wide natural virus.
Birth control isn't working.


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## venusinpisces

People who advocate the collapse of civilization as a solution to environmental problems are overlooking one crucial point: *nuclear meltdown*. Without electricity to cool spent fuel rods from nuclear plants, enormous amounts of radioactive material would be released into the environment. Nuclear power plants rely on sophisticated equipment to prevent this situation from occurring. Without that equipment, the surrounding ecosystem would be devastated by the effects of radioactive waste. Like it or not, the earth is now dependent upon humanity as a caretaker. This situation is problematic in many ways, particularly in terms of our agricultural systems which are decimating complex ecologies. Some here have mentioned genetic engineering as a potential solution without bringing up the fact that massive GMO crop failure has led to famine and farmer suicides in India, as well as the studies that have proven how GMO foods cause organ damage. The best solution that I can see is through permaculture, a system of designing sustainable communities with less of an emphasis on technology and consumption. As for people who romanticize industrial collapse, it's only because you haven't lived through it. All it would take would be 72 hours without plumbing or electricity for the US to look like Haiti. Murder, rape, starvation and disease would be the rule of the day, not whatever Mad Max movie you've been watching. It's nice to fantasize about some type of road warrior adventure but reality would be a lot uglier. Personally, I would rather focus on solutions that don't involve the avoidable deaths of huge numbers of people.


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## RnJ

Historically, all empires have fallen. Except for China, which though it no longer runs like a traditional imperialist empire, exists and is alive and well economically (perhaps the start of new colonialism). But empire fall in some way. Not overnight, but they do. I think the idea of collapse is so seriously considered because of globalism. It is no longer a population in a specific area that will fall do to the depletion of local resources. We will continue to use up all resources globally, until nothing but human and the minimal amount of food that keeps 100% of alive exist. No additional space. And then the poop storm would begin. Unless we reach another planet.

Like a lot of other people, I don't want to leave this planet. Even if progress can continue, and is ecologically sustainable (hello cornucopianism?), I find it spiritually unsustainable. This is my own reflection, but man completely dominating nature is a cold and lonely existence. It is one of stress and worry and constant need for 5-star "escapes" from a world of increasing workloads and the inevitable return to reality.

I'm not sure about collapse. I don't like how the proclamation of coming collapse allows people to basically sit back and watch it happen. On the other hand, I don't trust our population to adapt to the realities, even if they are a slow process. I think a lot of people don't care because they have effectively decided simply NOT to believe there is anything wrong. And the more people speak of climate change and stuff like that, the more they react negatively: "nah, it's just a ploy used to give people political sway by bringing up environmental issues!" "Nah, we'll just move to another planet."

I don't know if there will be a grand, final, all-time brutal collapse. But I want to be moderately prepared, and I don't want to see the world go down in flames. There's no need to be turn-or-burn preachin' collapse...specially not if you're a collapsist sitting on a launchair, staring at the sky and waiting for it to come.

If you open yourself to being adaptive and an attitude of learning survival skills as needed, I think you're far ahead of 95% of our population. The bonus is you're being both an activist, and doing yourself some good by increasing your chances of survival. But give up any semblance of rescuing the behemoth of a problem all 7 billion of us are perpetuating. I hate to get all self-interested, but I think that teaching yourself about survival does both you and the world some good.


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## viking

It's possible something could happen. I don't buy any of that 2012 shit though. 

All it takes is one idiot setting off a nuke to start a chain reaction. There's also the fact that in the universe earth is just a tiny speck of dirt. An asteroid hits us and everything's fucked. Even if NASA and other space programs knew about a possible astronomical event they wouldn't tell us so as not to cause panic.

Economically, capitalism is inherently flawed. Eventually it'll fail completely. Probably not for awhile though.


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## Diagaro

Steven Kings The Stand.
We don't need a mad max end we need a Captain Tripps to decimate 98% of the population, and though america is littered with nuclear stuff theres more in Russia - GODSPEED!!!


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## cranberrydavid

In the early 60's when I was a kid we used to practice duck-and-cover and getting under desks and tables to hide from "A-bombs". Before that, in the 40's they were riding horse patrols on the beach here, setting boobytaps, and teaching kids to hide for when the "Japs" invaded. Before that there was the Great Depression....and so on back to the beginning of time. 

Now we find that out here we're sitting on top of the Cascadia Subduction Zone and we're overdue for a 9.0 earthquake, followed by a 20 ft tsunami which will take out my house if the earthquake didn't get it first. So I keep a dufflebag of gear and a chainsaw by the door in case I need to run, and I go on with my life. There's always things to worry about. Sometimes they hit you, sometimes they don't.

My opinion, civilization is always collapsing, and there's always people propping it back up with 2x4's and duct tape. If that's all you've got to worry about, you're doing great!

No matter what happens, if you've got a skill and can actually do something useful (like farming, building, repairing, healing) you'll probably be able to get by unless you take a direct hit. That's all you can ask for.


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## CheyeneDaCHEROKEE lady

i agree with dameon... kid you have a good point.... but so do the rest of you besides the fact oh mighty war loard diagaro.... you just might be stuck with a willing crew to sail away with your prize... sorry kid theres no need for violence and your dark mood fantasies of a perverted 4th of july.... or kidnapping people to the high seas... anyways the economy is failing and we are personally (the US) in debt to third world countries and nations that are similar to ours except for the fact of marxism and monarchies that still exist today... in fact its gotten so bad (thanks to our lovely puppet of congress president barack hussein obama and this government) we are falling further in debt. fuck the idea of technology furthering in cell phones and ipods and bullshit like that... ok? because its happening... we are in debt to china and japan and asian nations. in debt to many other nations and this money-owing bussiness is going to stick a steel toed boot up our ass and make sure we are further than 6 feet under. china and vietnam and etc... has been making products for this country.... so people yall better start learning chinese fast and make sure yall have asian eyes asap. china has made millions of products for this country including mcdonald toys and clothing and the music yall are listening to? chinatown may be around the corner for some of yall but china is around the corner on a fucking timeline for all of us!!!! it has been rumored that a 3rd world war is also around the corner too... but that will happen when it will. obama has been going on fancy trips not needed when that money could have been used for the debts that we as a nation owe. him and his special team of green guzzling colleagues have told all of us that they could make heavens promises happen and thats a godly vow in itself. in fact what have they done so far? put more troops in iraq and then taken them out and made war on lybia. why was that needed? it wasnt... lybia has its problems but so does the usa!!!! and its called WE NEED TO PAY UP!!! It costs to provide for the soldiers overseas.... hell it costed us for the wars we had here ON our land... like the civil war between the north and the south.... hell it costed a shitload of money to wage war on the native americans on our land and they knew them as savages... WTF!!! they had to give up horses and bury their dead and feed the people waging the war against natives. in fact it more than likely cost the natives to do so... except with a very different kind of payment.... their very lives... which brings me back to the point that our troops are dying out there and unbeknownst to them (or they just dgaf) they too are guzzling the sweet drops of benjamins right out from this spicket.... and if none of yall notice its becoming a plastic world... but what money after all is gone can be put into this plastic that we all know as credit/debit/gift cards????.... NONE. technology is crushing us because of the way it has been pointlessly misused in our name and the rest of this economies name. forests are being razed and the land is dying.... so is the very air you breathe... when is the last time you looked up and you are in fort worth, dallas, los angeles, or any city and not seen smog? well heres an answer for you how about yesterday... well guess what folks you will see it as long as you are there or anywhere. those thanks are owed to cars and the machinery that fucked up people had the balls to come up with a moving carriage that needed no team of whatever to pull it. then you got rockets... you ever seen sattelites in the sky that has made a complete orbit around the earth within 24 hours... well... how that managed that was a rocket flew into the sky and propelled it out into outer space at a certain point to the exact location of where it needed to be so it can begin its journey of earthly and heavenly photagraphy. a rocket when it launches you get that smoke and chemical into the air and which is one of the reasons for global warming.... that 2012 bullshit.... well how the earth is going to implode on itself.... not likely.... more like more horrific things than that... alot of yuppies will hate their very own existance... no money whatsoever... everyone in debt to eachother no more industrialized high tech products and the most they will be able to do is shit their pants say "oops my fucking bad what the fuck are we supposed to do now?!?!" well all i gotta say is fuck you in sign language with my middle finger..... blessings.... hope we can adapt like we supposedly did with evolution and make it in this world because of rich spoiled prissy yuppies that want their new toys and act like fucking little kids when they dont have their way... which in this case is wave guns around and shoot at eachother... what a way to live... yep chat later....


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## dprogram

Cheyenne. I think you are extremely misguided in your thoughts concerning President Obama and I wonder where your information comes from or if you even understand how our government is run.


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## CheyeneDaCHEROKEE lady

kid i do understand perfectly how the government works.... im not out of the loop whatsoever... and misguided on obama... no i understand just fine. thank you for your concerns... but i got it.... obama had made promises during the time when obama and mccain were going against eachother.... mccain was the one that said he guaranteed to try his hardest to get us out of the slump this economy has become. obama has promised everything of the universe and heaven along with angels to do so not just try but do so. in fact did you watch his oath at all? i was still a kid but i got the gist of it. he did not want his middle name said as he made the very oath to uphold this country as a free nation. his middle name Hussein is the very same name of a very well known terrorist who was apart of terrorist actions one way or another... i do admit Saddam Hussein is someone i have yet to research and the keyword is YET. i research alot of things. i had newspaper clippings from when obama finally won the race to presidency and he had help with the knockout of the other candidates. he had won the heart of congress... which is a very dangerous thing..... he is a puppet of congress and all his decisions..... besides one of the first which was to put more troops into iraq and then take them all out and put them into lybia... for more war that was not needed.... were not his own but congress whispers orders in his ear and makes it sound like suggestions for the best for our country.... all lies or most of it anyways. the us was proud of the fact that we have the first black president besides the ones truly racist like my grandfather and my bf's grandfather amongst others were against it... what could we have done though.... nothing... it is said that a few assassination attempts have already been tried but no can do has been done.... luckily... no matter how much i dislike the man not for the fact that he is black but because he has made some very indecent moves on his part and that of congress...... i understand perfectly how wrong it is for him to be president.... with the past presidents they were not puppets but true leaders of this country... one of them being one of this countrys forefathers... we all know him unless completely ignorant... george washington..... he was a great president after they had run what was known as redcoats or the british off this land.... he fought alongside the other soldiers to do so..... have you ever seen that painting of him with one booted foot on the stern of that boat as they traveled to fight some more to rid the country of redcoats? yeah that was a good piece of art.... and he was a great president.... this president though... barack obama makes a mockery of this country AND the makings of it.... the us constitution.... which had started this country and is the foundings and base of what was and can still be a great country... obama just needs to focus on what needs to be done to get us on our feet once again.... not on our bellys fallen like a world war two soldier shot down on japanese land.... this time it just might be land of another so-called enemys metaphorical land.... we are doing this to ourselves and obama has had his hand in that fucking cookie jar as well.... or a more better term for it piggy bank..... a complete idiot who has the mind but just acts like his mind is gone and fluff in its place that absorbs moronic ideas from congress to keep this country from falling apart from its structure.... blown apart like tokyo and the tsunami that caused nuclear explosions which have transferred with radiation from food products that have survived that very self-denominating demolishing destruction because nuclear power is apparently safe enough to keep on earth. anyways we keep this up and obama and congress runs with it and us behind them this country will be nothing... and no structure... people everywhere will die, hitler era comes again with concentration camps and so forh. in fact they have already started with concentration camps... one of them being a davis-montham air force base in tucson arizona.... we are a dying nation... wether or not we sing let freedom ring... soon freedom will no longer be a bell to ring...

chatterbox mouse


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## nivoldoog

bring down all the banks


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## plagueship

one thing that's definitely collapsing is this thread


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## viking

CheyeneDaCHEROKEE lady said:


> kid i do understand perfectly how the government works.... im not out of the loop whatsoever... and misguided on obama... no i understand just fine. thank you for your concerns... but i got it.... obama had made promises during the time when obama and mccain were going against eachother.... mccain was the one that said he guaranteed to try his hardest to get us out of the slump this economy has become. obama has promised everything of the universe and heaven along with angels to do so not just try but do so. in fact did you watch his oath at all? i was still a kid but i got the gist of it. he did not want his middle name said as he made the very oath to uphold this country as a free nation. his middle name Hussein is the very same name of a very well known terrorist who was apart of terrorist actions one way or another... i do admit Saddam Hussein is someone i have yet to research and the keyword is YET. i research alot of things. i had newspaper clippings from when obama finally won the race to presidency and he had help with the knockout of the other candidates. he had won the heart of congress... which is a very dangerous thing..... he is a puppet of congress and all his decisions..... besides one of the first which was to put more troops into iraq and then take them all out and put them into lybia... for more war that was not needed.... were not his own but congress whispers orders in his ear and makes it sound like suggestions for the best for our country.... all lies or most of it anyways. the us was proud of the fact that we have the first black president besides the ones truly racist like my grandfather and my bf's grandfather amongst others were against it... what could we have done though.... nothing... it is said that a few assassination attempts have already been tried but no can do has been done.... luckily... no matter how much i dislike the man not for the fact that he is black but because he has made some very indecent moves on his part and that of congress...... i understand perfectly how wrong it is for him to be president.... with the past presidents they were not puppets but true leaders of this country... one of them being one of this countrys forefathers... we all know him unless completely ignorant... george washington..... he was a great president after they had run what was known as redcoats or the british off this land.... he fought alongside the other soldiers to do so..... have you ever seen that painting of him with one booted foot on the stern of that boat as they traveled to fight some more to rid the country of redcoats? yeah that was a good piece of art.... and he was a great president.... this president though... barack obama makes a mockery of this country AND the makings of it.... the us constitution.... which had started this country and is the foundings and base of what was and can still be a great country... obama just needs to focus on what needs to be done to get us on our feet once again.... not on our bellys fallen like a world war two soldier shot down on japanese land.... this time it just might be land of another so-called enemys metaphorical land.... we are doing this to ourselves and obama has had his hand in that fucking cookie jar as well.... or a more better term for it piggy bank..... a complete idiot who has the mind but just acts like his mind is gone and fluff in its place that absorbs moronic ideas from congress to keep this country from falling apart from its structure.... blown apart like tokyo and the tsunami that caused nuclear explosions which have transferred with radiation from food products that have survived that very self-denominating demolishing destruction because nuclear power is apparently safe enough to keep on earth. anyways we keep this up and obama and congress runs with it and us behind them this country will be nothing... and no structure... people everywhere will die, hitler era comes again with concentration camps and so forh. in fact they have already started with concentration camps... one of them being a davis-montham air force base in tucson arizona.... we are a dying nation... wether or not we sing let freedom ring... soon freedom will no longer be a bell to ring...
> 
> chatterbox mouse


walloftext


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## CheyeneDaCHEROKEE lady

nivoldoog said:


> bring down all the banks


what would bringing down any banks down do....???? jtbc....


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## CheyeneDaCHEROKEE lady

viking said:


> walloftext


???????


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## CheyeneDaCHEROKEE lady

CheyeneDaCHEROKEE lady said:


> ???????


ahhhh ok it is... but i speak truth..... all i got to say.... for that


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## nivoldoog

Collapse all the banks is a good start to bringing down this bull shit civilation. Let them fail!


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## Missy

This thread is pretty funny.


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## Margarita

Cheyene, if you want anyone to take your walls of text seriously, you should break them down into paragraphs and expound on your opinionated statements instead of just stating them simply and leaving it at that. Now I'm not pro-Obama, I'm not against him either, but I am anti-ignorance, and saying that Obama is a puppet of Congress is a bloody ignorant statement. Congress is disorganized and divided, not to mention consisting of dozens of wealthy fools who, at best, might be looking out for their DISTRICT'S constituents, but certainly cannot come to any sort of blanket agreement for the good of the environment, maybe even just for the good of all Americans.
The Clean Air Act and its amendments are the last pieces of good environmental legislation, and getting even that bone tossed to the environmentalists required months of hard work, talks and compromises with the opposition and corporations (why should car manufacturers, pharmaceutical companies, banks and agribusiness be the ones writing our legislation ANYWAY? That's why we elect legislators for christ's sake!)
In fact, if you made any sort of serious research into the workings of Congress and back-room deals, you would know that the President is influential but hardly the main player in the game. He can say "yes, no, maybe so" but he can't personally enact the legislation that would deliver the things he promised.
The most he can do is submit a proposal to Congress and make telephone calls to try to get someone in Congress to get that thing through the House and Senate. And when Congress is so divided, it's hard for ANY president to get anything done. The anti-Obamaites are so radically opposed to him that they will reject almost anything he puts forward, even if it would do Americans 100% good with no harm. Of course if he lets them add to the bill so that they can get tax cuts for the rich, or lower fuel mileage standards for SUVs (oh wait, they aren't regulated anyway because they aren't "cars" or "trucks") maybe the Republicans will think about it. ::Eyeroll::
The top concern of politicians in America today is_ re-election_. Fact. If we did away with that, we might see some stuff actually get done, because they won't be too busy campaigning and fundraising to pay attention to their actual _job._

And this is just one facet of what is wrong with our system of governance. To all those who claim that this is a democracy, I recommend that they do some reading up on the reality of our system. Presidential elections are bullshit, it's the electoral college that makes the final decision. And get this! Candidates for elector are nominated by their state political parties, which means that people who haven't pledged allegiance to some party, some _dogma_, can't even run for elector. This effectively bans from meaningful participation those who have analyzed the system and come to the intelligent conclusion that parties are nothing more than cults that discourage disagreement and debate in favor of blind loyalty and propaganda.

This is why change from within the system can never take place on the scale that it is required, for a more conscientious and peaceful government -- because what was so cleverly designed over 200 years ago has been perverted and stretched to conform to a new purpose, one that the American people did not vote on. If you want to change this society, something will _have_ to collapse and be rebuilt. I am more interested in the rebuilding part. It would be bloody unfortunate if we made it all collapse and it turned into something just as bad or worse.


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## BAMN

robbing banks is a way to start.


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## BAMN

there are many ways to upset the established order.


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## CXR1037

Margarita said:


> Cheyene, if you want anyone to take your walls of text seriously, you should break them down into paragraphs and expound on your opinionated statements instead of just stating them simply and leaving it at that. Now I'm not pro-Obama, I'm not against him either, but I am anti-ignorance, and saying that Obama is a puppet of Congress is a bloody ignorant statement. Congress is disorganized and divided, not to mention consisting of dozens of wealthy fools who, at best, might be looking out for their DISTRICT'S constituents, but certainly cannot come to any sort of blanket agreement for the good of the environment, maybe even just for the good of all Americans.
> The Clean Air Act and its amendments are the last pieces of good environmental legislation, and getting even that bone tossed to the environmentalists required months of hard work, talks and compromises with the opposition and corporations (why should car manufacturers, pharmaceutical companies, banks and agribusiness be the ones writing our legislation ANYWAY? That's why we elect legislators for christ's sake!)
> In fact, if you made any sort of serious research into the workings of Congress and back-room deals, you would know that the President is influential but hardly the main player in the game. He can say "yes, no, maybe so" but he can't personally enact the legislation that would deliver the things he promised.
> The most he can do is submit a proposal to Congress and make telephone calls to try to get someone in Congress to get that thing through the House and Senate. And when Congress is so divided, it's hard for ANY president to get anything done. The anti-Obamaites are so radically opposed to him that they will reject almost anything he puts forward, even if it would do Americans 100% good with no harm. Of course if he lets them add to the bill so that they can get tax cuts for the rich, or lower fuel mileage standards for SUVs (oh wait, they aren't regulated anyway because they aren't "cars" or "trucks") maybe the Republicans will think about it. ::Eyeroll::
> The top concern of politicians in America today is_ re-election_. Fact. If we did away with that, we might see some stuff actually get done, because they won't be too busy campaigning and fundraising to pay attention to their actual _job._
> 
> And this is just one facet of what is wrong with our system of governance. To all those who claim that this is a democracy, I recommend that they do some reading up on the reality of our system. Presidential elections are bullshit, it's the electoral college that makes the final decision. And get this! Candidates for elector are nominated by their state political parties, which means that people who haven't pledged allegiance to some party, some _dogma_, can't even run for elector. This effectively bans from meaningful participation those who have analyzed the system and come to the intelligent conclusion that parties are nothing more than cults that discourage disagreement and debate in favor of blind loyalty and propaganda.
> 
> This is why change from within the system can never take place on the scale that it is required, for a more conscientious and peaceful government -- because what was so cleverly designed over 200 years ago has been perverted and stretched to conform to a new purpose, one that the American people did not vote on. If you want to change this society, something will _have_ to collapse and be rebuilt. I am more interested in the rebuilding part. It would be bloody unfortunate if we made it all collapse and it turned into something just as bad or worse.



Hey, you should check out this article, you might find it interesting:
http://www.alternet.org/world/151665/would_we_be_better_off_if_john_mccain_were_president/

(christ, I can't believe I'm actually referencing AlterNet...)

"The anti-Obamaites are so radically opposed to him that they will reject almost anything he puts forward, even if it would do Americans 100% good with no harm. "

I think the anti-Obamites are opposed to him because he's a horrible leader who inherited a mess and subsequently turned it into an even bigger mess. Not to mention he's done everything George Bush (or McCain, per the article) would have/surely would have done. Everyone who voted for him and thought he was worthwhile was an egg-sucking moron. And I don't want to sound like a republican or tea-partyist here, as I hate both parties equally...


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## DaisyDoom

Obama is irrelevant.
Every politician makes promises they don't keep.


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## Margarita

That was a really interesting article you posted! It makes me rather wish that McCain _had_ gotten elected, because at least people would be less divided over arbitrary lines... it's amazing how short-term the public memory can be. You don't have to understand economics to understand that all the issues we've been having were created or at least exacerbated by George Bush's turn at the helm, and pinning them on Obama is just an easy out. Well, maybe you do. I don't know. I am continually reminded that while a person may be smart, "people" are dumb..

What I don't understand is why people continue to take politicians' promises seriously. Haven't we been shown every four years that nothing changes significantly? Are those in power really that smart that they can satisfy the masses with a bone tossed to them here and there?

Really I just I hate talking politics with people who can't dream of a system that is neither 2-party "democratic" republicanism nor totalitarianism masquerading as communism.


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## pigpen

Margarita said:


> That was a really interesting article you posted! It makes me rather wish that McCain _had_ gotten elected, because at least people would be less divided over arbitrary lines... it's amazing how short-term the public memory can be.



we gotta get a complete batshit crazy sociopath in there, let rome fucking burn


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## Margarita

> we gotta get a complete batshit crazy sociopath in there, let rome fucking burn


I'd say GW had some sociopathic tendencies...


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## plagueship

i don't know what anyone could possibly see in these apocalyptic fantasies other than a sense of solace for those who can't admit that we are all powerless against something as massive and powerful as the sweep of history, the totality of human civilization or even the current state of politics in the u.s. i guess screaming "down with them all!" is easier and more enjoyable than actually trying to make sense of any of it.

really, where exactly could you get such optimism? from 10,000 miserable years of human history?


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## dprogram

CheyeneDaCHEROKEE lady said:


> kid i do understand perfectly how the government works.... im not out of the loop whatsoever... and misguided on obama... no i understand just fine. thank you for your concerns... but i got it.... obama had made promises during the time when obama and mccain were going against eachother.... mccain was the one that said he guaranteed to try his hardest to get us out of the slump this economy has become. obama has promised everything of the universe and heaven along with angels to do so not just try but do so. in fact did you watch his oath at all? i was still a kid but i got the gist of it. he did not want his middle name said as he made the very oath to uphold this country as a free nation. his middle name Hussein is the very same name of a very well known terrorist who was apart of terrorist actions one way or another... i do admit Saddam Hussein is someone i have yet to research and the keyword is YET. i research alot of things. i had newspaper clippings from when obama finally won the race to presidency and he had help with the knockout of the other candidates. he had won the heart of congress... which is a very dangerous thing..... he is a puppet of congress and all his decisions..... besides one of the first which was to put more troops into iraq and then take them all out and put them into lybia... for more war that was not needed.... were not his own but congress whispers orders in his ear and makes it sound like suggestions for the best for our country.... all lies or most of it anyways. the us was proud of the fact that we have the first black president besides the ones truly racist like my grandfather and my bf's grandfather amongst others were against it... what could we have done though.... nothing... it is said that a few assassination attempts have already been tried but no can do has been done.... luckily... no matter how much i dislike the man not for the fact that he is black but because he has made some very indecent moves on his part and that of congress...... i understand perfectly how wrong it is for him to be president.... with the past presidents they were not puppets but true leaders of this country... one of them being one of this countrys forefathers... we all know him unless completely ignorant... george washington..... he was a great president after they had run what was known as redcoats or the british off this land.... he fought alongside the other soldiers to do so..... have you ever seen that painting of him with one booted foot on the stern of that boat as they traveled to fight some more to rid the country of redcoats? yeah that was a good piece of art.... and he was a great president.... this president though... barack obama makes a mockery of this country AND the makings of it.... the us constitution.... which had started this country and is the foundings and base of what was and can still be a great country... obama just needs to focus on what needs to be done to get us on our feet once again.... not on our bellys fallen like a world war two soldier shot down on japanese land.... this time it just might be land of another so-called enemys metaphorical land.... we are doing this to ourselves and obama has had his hand in that fucking cookie jar as well.... or a more better term for it piggy bank..... a complete idiot who has the mind but just acts like his mind is gone and fluff in its place that absorbs moronic ideas from congress to keep this country from falling apart from its structure.... blown apart like tokyo and the tsunami that caused nuclear explosions which have transferred with radiation from food products that have survived that very self-denominating demolishing destruction because nuclear power is apparently safe enough to keep on earth. anyways we keep this up and obama and congress runs with it and us behind them this country will be nothing... and no structure... people everywhere will die, hitler era comes again with concentration camps and so forh. in fact they have already started with concentration camps... one of them being a davis-montham air force base in tucson arizona.... we are a dying nation... wether or not we sing let freedom ring... soon freedom will no longer be a bell to ring...
> 
> chatterbox mouse


Sorry but you're either a moron or were drunk when you wrote this. Hopefully you're not both.


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## CheyeneDaCHEROKEE lady

nah im neither and was neither.... i have a very different way of putting things.... so im sorry if you didnt understand what i was saying or if you missed my point in what i was saying.... i am not a moron but either you were drunk when you read my post or your a complete idiot.... i hope your neither either.... goodnight....


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## CheyeneDaCHEROKEE lady

nivoldoog said:


> Collapse all the banks is a good start to bringing down this bull shit civilation. Let them fail!


i see your point when actually thinking about it....


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## CheyeneDaCHEROKEE lady

Margarita said:


> That was a really interesting article you posted! It makes me rather wish that McCain _had_ gotten elected, because at least people would be less divided over arbitrary lines... it's amazing how short-term the public memory can be. You don't have to understand economics to understand that all the issues we've been having were created or at least exacerbated by George Bush's turn at the helm, and pinning them on Obama is just an easy out. Well, maybe you do. I don't know. I am continually reminded that while a person may be smart, "people" are dumb..
> 
> What I don't understand is why people continue to take politicians' promises seriously. Haven't we been shown every four years that nothing changes significantly? Are those in power really that smart that they can satisfy the masses with a bone tossed to them here and there?
> 
> Really I just I hate talking politics with people who can't dream of a system that is neither 2-party "democratic" republicanism nor totalitarianism masquerading as communism.


thank you... last guy dprogram... actually never got what i was saying....


Margarita said:


> Cheyene, if you want anyone to take your walls of text seriously, you should break them down into paragraphs and expound on your opinionated statements instead of just stating them simply and leaving it at that. Now I'm not pro-Obama, I'm not against him either, but I am anti-ignorance, and saying that Obama is a puppet of Congress is a bloody ignorant statement. Congress is disorganized and divided, not to mention consisting of dozens of wealthy fools who, at best, might be looking out for their DISTRICT'S constituents, but certainly cannot come to any sort of blanket agreement for the good of the environment, maybe even just for the good of all Americans.
> The Clean Air Act and its amendments are the last pieces of good environmental legislation, and getting even that bone tossed to the environmentalists required months of hard work, talks and compromises with the opposition and corporations (why should car manufacturers, pharmaceutical companies, banks and agribusiness be the ones writing our legislation ANYWAY? That's why we elect legislators for christ's sake!)
> In fact, if you made any sort of serious research into the workings of Congress and back-room deals, you would know that the President is influential but hardly the main player in the game. He can say "yes, no, maybe so" but he can't personally enact the legislation that would deliver the things he promised.
> The most he can do is submit a proposal to Congress and make telephone calls to try to get someone in Congress to get that thing through the House and Senate. And when Congress is so divided, it's hard for ANY president to get anything done. The anti-Obamaites are so radically opposed to him that they will reject almost anything he puts forward, even if it would do Americans 100% good with no harm. Of course if he lets them add to the bill so that they can get tax cuts for the rich, or lower fuel mileage standards for SUVs (oh wait, they aren't regulated anyway because they aren't "cars" or "trucks") maybe the Republicans will think about it. ::Eyeroll::
> The top concern of politicians in America today is_ re-election_. Fact. If we did away with that, we might see some stuff actually get done, because they won't be too busy campaigning and fundraising to pay attention to their actual _job._
> 
> And this is just one facet of what is wrong with our system of governance. To all those who claim that this is a democracy, I recommend that they do some reading up on the reality of our system. Presidential elections are bullshit, it's the electoral college that makes the final decision. And get this! Candidates for elector are nominated by their state political parties, which means that people who haven't pledged allegiance to some party, some _dogma_, can't even run for elector. This effectively bans from meaningful participation those who have analyzed the system and come to the intelligent conclusion that parties are nothing more than cults that discourage disagreement and debate in favor of blind loyalty and propaganda.
> 
> This is why change from within the system can never take place on the scale that it is required, for a more conscientious and peaceful government -- because what was so cleverly designed over 200 years ago has been perverted and stretched to conform to a new purpose, one that the American people did not vote on. If you want to change this society, something will _have_ to collapse and be rebuilt. I am more interested in the rebuilding part. It would be bloody unfortunate if we made it all collapse and it turned into something just as bad or worse.


thank you for that criticism i will take action on that one.... i know about how some of our forefathers have signed the constitution.... it has conformed wrongly without votes from the people.... i do agree.. again thank you for your criticism... i will do more research later....
chatterbox mouse


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## nivoldoog

GOOO away banks. The collapse will come with all money being useless. before or after all banks will fall. No banks, no money, no money no banks. No Money no government. No Money, no root of evil.... (by the way "the root of evil is knowledge")


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## Benny

Check out the US debt clock. http://www.usdebtclock.org/

How long do you think the government can keep spending at this rate before you can't count that high.

The billionaires know its about to collapse. They are dumping stocks and buying gold. George Soros just dumped nearly all of his stocks and bought 150 MILLION dollars in gold. Putin from Russia just bought half a billion in gold. I cant even list all of the wealthy folks and countries that see what's happening and are buying up gold. http://www.moneynews.com/Outbrain/b...-stock/2012/08/29/id/450265?PROMO_CODE=FE8A-1

Every decadent empire in history has collapsed and we are not exempt.

Well at least we can use all of the worthless dollars to wipe our asses with after the collapse.


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## CXR1037

US debt clock is shock and awe with no basis in reality. It's a big number, but it's meaningless for a country like the US.

The government should spend more than they are now because there is insufficient aggregate demand in the economy. And as long as the economy isn't at full potential, spending isn't going to be inflationary or disruptive. And because the US a sovereign monetary issuer, markets cannot do anything about it. The US can never default. 

Thus we arrive at gold, the extremely volatile commodity. People buy and sell shares of it all the time. Soros sold all his gold in 2011, then bought some, then just sold some again: http://money.cnn.com/2013/02/15/investing/soros-gold/?cnn=yes&hpt=hp_t3

Collapse will happen someday, but not likely soon (who knows, maybe we'll totally pay off the debt and destroy the economy?). 

cxR - modern money theory


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## ProletarianGuerilla

For those who haven't been paying any attention the world has been going through a global economic collapse since 2008 where we are drawing near its finalizing. When it happens there will be a political crisis worldwide as there will be people everywhere with zero confidence in government.

On the energy front modern civilization is collapsing due to peak oil and as of yet there is no replacement for its emerging decline to meet ongoing global infrastructure.

Alternative energies for replacement? Like what exactly?

Somebody here mentioned that if civilization collapses we will have tons of nuclear reactors around the world that would go in nuclear fallout. And? Shouldn't of built them to begin with understanding their risks but people with short term thinking without accessing future consequences built them anyways.

If anything nuclear fallout will be a added bonus to the collapse of civilization if not the quickest instrument to it.


Life will prevail afterwards.

This corrupt global civilization deserves to die.


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## travelin

uhh, the nukes just go into shutdown, the fuel is removed and thats it. no big chernobyl or even a tree mile island event(s). 

they have multiple power sources external to the plants and internal also. at the worst they would SCRAM by shoving the graphite rods in and then be able to take their time removing the fuel.

global crop failure would flat put the hoopie on global civilization. aint enough food to feed everybody more than a year i reckon.

probably spark off some pretty good wars and some of them folks would go to chunking nukes around.

we figgered out how to boil water to make it do work back in the early 1800's, then came internal combustion, a technique which does NOT require petroleum products.

all a nuclear power plant does is boil water.

im confident that man aint gonna die off. we might go nuclear with the next big world war but rest assured that there is still plenty of sticks and rocks to fight the one after that.


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## CXR1037

> if civilization collapses we will have tons of nuclear reactors around the world that would go in nuclear fallout


 
Please show me with evidence how this is going to happen. Do you have a manual on nuclear reactors that says: "WILL PRODUCE NUCLEAR FALLOUT IN EVENT OF COLLAPSE!"



> This corrupt global civilization deserves to die.


 
It's also responsible for a decrease in poverty, famine, disease, and infant mortality.

cxR - lots of problems in the world but your attitude is the lazy way out of dealing with them


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## ProletarianGuerilla

Travelin, yeah we can't forget the upcoming new world war also.

I have my own ideas who will be the players in that also.

Isn't civilization just grand?

To Cx,

One word. Fukushima.

You still believe that civilization can be fixed. That's cute.


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## CXR1037

> You still believe that civilization can be fixed. That's cute.



Brilliant rebuttal, tons of evidence, thanks. My mind has been made up! 



> we can't forget the upcoming new world war also.


 
You should sell your insider info to MSM!!11!1!

cxR - "_cynicism isn't wisdom..._"


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## ProletarianGuerilla

Glad I have made up your mind CX. If you need any other advice I am around.

I don't deal with mainstream media also known as propaganda state television.

Naive optimism or hopeful idealism isn't wisdom either.

Hmmmmm.......


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## CXR1037

> I don't deal with mainstream media also known as propaganda state television.



What a lazy convenient position! That way, you can never lose! Because you have _faith_ in your tinfoil hat beliefs.

CxR - vampirism is for poseurs


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## ProletarianGuerilla

CXR1037 said:


> What a lazy convenient position! That way, you can never lose! Because you have _faith_ in your tinfoil hat beliefs.
> 
> CxR - vampirism is for poseurs



So, because I don't believe or listen to propaganda state television I am a tin foil hat wearer?

What sort of bullshit argument is that?

Vampirism? WTF? Where did that come from?

Are we still debating or are you just yanking my chain?


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## Noble Savage

Civilization is based around the marketplace and the marketplace is a giant middle finger in the face of Mother Nature so she has no choice but work against it and she has all the time in the world.
The only thing that gives the old man behind the curtain any power is your fear of him. Fear is the ultimate weapon. You can hold an entire nation at "fear point".
The new cash crop in amerika today is healthcare. They tend to their crops by stressing you out because they know that stress is the major source of all illness.
Don't worry, be happy and piss off the powers that be!


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## travelin

it could happen, but we could stagger along as we have for a long time. there is still much growth to be acheived as a race.

civilizations have failed before, when this one goes it wont be the end of mankind.


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## ProletarianGuerilla

travelin said:


> it could happen, but we could stagger along as we have for a long time. there is still much growth to be acheived as a race.
> 
> civilizations have failed before, when this one goes it wont be the end of mankind.


Actually were at peak growth as infinite growth cannot take place on a finite planet.

This is why collapse of civilization in many forms is becoming imminent.

I give civilization another two hundred years or less before it flatlines.


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## BeefSupreme

I can say without a doubt that civilization will end sometime between now and when the sun exhausts its supply of hydrogen and becomes a red giant.


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## Katniss

To the OP, I haven't waded through the entire six pages of responses: Interesting question, with a few fallacies. 

Not everyone with money, as you state, is outside of the "it's allll goin' down, man" loop. The only other forum I look at is run by a market analyst who regularly appears on alphabet news media. I've been reading him since 2007, and most of the other forum members are rich enough to play the stock market (and that is the original premise of that forum - stock tips and trading advice). So they have money. I won't say "all" because I haven't spoken to all of them, but most of that forum's members believe modern civilization is going down in flames, and quite soon. Since I joined that board seven years ago, it's gone from analyzing the market to extract the most profit to everyone having left the market and only dipping a toe in if they think it 'll be short-term worthwhile, and discussing what to do with their money otherwise, and how best to situate themselves for the end of the economy as we know it.

That's the fallacy that I saw in the OP. It's not just people without money who see this. It's those who have skin in the game and something to lose, as well.

As to why I think this will happen - well, I don't think it . I know it. At this point, it is math in action. Math is a funny thing . It doesn't give a rip about your football team, or Christmas. It doesn't care about Grandma dying. You could tell math, in a very firm tone of voice, that unless math changes very soon then puppies and fluffy kittens will all die of cancer. But math won't care. Math just is.

The relevant numbers are all out there - government reports out the wazoo, every week. Not enough of the (true) numbers needed for a serious mathematician to do the work to find out exactly *when*, but enough to know that it is inevitable. Getting rid of the M3 report was a doozy, but at least we can still look at the QE and extrapolate. 

$15 Billion (a big B) in debt every week. And by debt, I mean the government takes that big chunk of taxes and then spends even more on top of it. It'd be an extra $200 a week for your average Joe and Sally Six-Pack, on top of the taxes they already pay, only to cover the extra debt the government incurred last year alone. Just federal government debt, so after every person in America pays their weekly share of that then we can get to the state debt, and after that then 0ur own personal household debt and THEN pay the actual bills to live, like food. We can 'Murika and "USA USA" all we want, that can't happen *mathematically*.

Law of exponents. Everything can be fine, right up until it isn't.

The only question is whether we have passed the event horizon. I argue that we have, and in general the math backs me up, but others argue we may have another year before we hit the point of no return and in general the fact that the government doesn't tell us all the numbers backs them up. But then, do you see politicians advocating a change in economic policy over the next year? So po-tay-toe, po-tah-toe.

Anyways. My 96 pence. Coz inflation, y'know.


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## plagueship

what in the fuck is debt or inflation supposed to have to do with civilization? these are abstract values fixed in a certain way at a certain time by a particular phase of society. if anything you're talking about a horizon faced by capitalist civilization, not civilization per se. only it's not government debt that's going to bring it down, unless perhaps because of what it costs the government to keep the population under control - and probably they'll just gradually abandon more and more areas to be chaotic slum territories - but because the rate of extraction of surplus value from human labor ('profit'), the very core motor of capitalism, is declining, has been declining for 50 years, due to automation, globalization, and everything brought about by capital's need to become more efficient. a victim of its own success as it were.


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## Margin Walker

Recommended reading.

Not that you need a book to see the obvious at this point.
Carrying capacity is real and neither our culture, nor our species is exempt. Collapse isn't a monolithic event to occur at some point in the future. Collapse is a process, and we're in the midst of that process presently. That isn't a license for apathy or inaction, just a reminder that all civilizations fall, and fall for the same reasons.


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## Rob Nothing

intelligence is scarce. it means that these systems or lack thereof being put in place tend to be shoddy at best. whatever time period, wherever in the cycle of boom and bust. and people will jump at every opportunity to think the sky is falling, because it's fun, and because that's how imaginative they are.


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## Primitive

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that a way of life based on the use of non-renewable resources isn't going to last.


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