# Fascism Discussion Thread



## Coywolf

I wanted to start a discussion mainly on the topic of fascism, its history, and how it is still being implemented today.

I know this will be a tasty morsel for a few users on here, and I'm looking forward to hearing your opinions.

For those of you who are unfamiliar with fascism and it's incredibly destructive course in history, I direct you to the Wikipedia page:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

I will get the ball rolling. First of all, I believe that many people on this website are severely misusing the term, and I would like to set that straight with this thread.

Fascism can be both on the right and the left. Hardcore left wing people do not like to hear this, however it is true just the same. I direct you to Joseph Stain's regiem. Or many governments who have used communism as a guise to create an authoritarian government. Mainly as a coup.

I am a liberal. Pretty hardcore liberal, actually. However the hard left is starting to really piss me off with their self righteousness. Mainly with the account of calling representative Omar an anti-semite for critisizing the government of Isreal (with due cause I might add). This is dangerous. 

I am just really hoping the left does not fall victim to fascist tactics.

I know that @Skit was talking about the fact that Antifa was using borderline fascist tactics in their goal to actually fight fascism. 


Which I agree with. However I would stop far short of calling them actual fascists, which is what the right is trying to do. 

Anyway, I'm rambling. I'm looking forward to the conversation.


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## BardoBard

Yeah both the far Left and far Right are fascists, both promote xenophobia and want to control every aspect of our lives.

Same old shit.


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## Honey Crust

What exactly are “fascist tactics?” Fascism is an end, not a means, and I think that most actions called fascist (referring to anti-fascist violence here), ignore the context of the end goal.

I’m curious as to what context you’re using that phrase in


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## Coywolf

Honey Crust said:


> What exactly are “fascist tactics?” Fascism is an end, not a means, and I think that most actions called fascist (referring to anti-fascist violence here), ignore the context of the end goal.
> 
> I’m curious as to what’s context you’re using that phrase in



I'm sorry, but that just isint true. Fascism, by definition, can be tactics used to achieve an end state of a Fascist Party. If you look at the rise of Mussolini and Hitler, you will see that both used very similar tactics on the rise to power, and increased the aggression of these tactics once in power.

State sponsored propaganda. Nationalism. Demonization of immigration and certain groups of people. Intimidation of opposition. Disdain for media. Authoritarianism.

Those are fascist tactics. They are used to achieve a fascist state. 

I dont have disdain for Antifa, I just do not agree with some of their tactics. 

Especially hard left propaganda, such as calling anyone who has criticisms for them capitalists, rascists, sexists, ect. 

The right just uses that as cannon fodder.


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## roughdraft

Coywolf said:


> I am a liberal. Pretty hardcore liberal, actually. However the hard left is starting to really piss me off with their self righteousness. Mainly with the account of calling representative Omar an anti-semite for critisizing the government of Israel (with due cause I might add). This is dangerous.
> 
> I am just really hoping the left does not fall victim to fascist tactics.



yeah that - although i know nothing about what's going on in Israel or who rep. Omar is - would seem to be what i like to call the bastardization of leftism. which seems to be very, very prevalent. like, fake


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## Honey Crust

Coywolf said:


> I'm sorry, but that just isint true. Fascism, by definition, can be tactics used to achieve an end state of a Fascist Party. If you look at the rise of Mussolini and Hitler, you will see that both used very similar tactics on the rise to power, and increased the aggression of these tactics once in power.
> 
> State sponsored propaganda. Nationalism. Demonization of immigration and certain groups of people. Intimidation of opposition. Disdain for media. Authoritarianism.
> 
> Those are fascist tactics. They are used to achieve a fascist state.


We are in agreement about this. Perhaps I wasn’t clear about what my question was.
I was asking about which tactics of Antifa you disagree with, like specifically. I feel like I need a better frame of reference than “some of their tactics” to properly engage with this conversation


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## Coywolf

Coywolf said:


> I dont have disdain for Antifa, I just do not agree with some of their tactics.
> 
> Especially hard left propaganda, such as calling anyone who has criticisms for them capitalists, rascists, sexists, ect.
> 
> The right just uses that as cannon fodder.


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## Honey Crust

Ah okay I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about far left propaganda in general, and not as it relates to antifa.

I don’t think that call-out culture (which the left is actively moving away from, at least in the circles I run in) is propaganda though? Call-out culture stems from fundamental misunderstandings of the source materials that bring up intersectionality, anarchism and social justice, and isn’t really pointed in a way that dedicated propaganda is.


Also, I think it’s important to note that not everyone who claims antifa for themselves are leftists. Antifascists aren’t even an actual organized collective, and I think it’s important to hold the individual people accountable for their views and actions instead of a blanket term for people who just so happen to be against fascism.


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## Deleted member 24029

So....Fascism is the wedding of a Nationalism with a Corporatist economics (wherein the State "resolves" the class conflict between labour and capital) . Hence Trumpism can been seen as a kind of vulgar (in the sense of reductionist) fascism. 
I have a Sun Tzu approach to tactics, i.e., the most effective action to win the field. Remember Marx: "Democracy is a battle to be won..." ( Actually, that was also Engels)


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## Coywolf

Honey Crust said:


> Also, I think it’s important to note that not everyone who claims antifa for themselves are leftists. Antifascists aren’t even an actual organized collective, and I think it’s important to hold the individual people accountable for their views and actions instead of a blanket term for people who



I like this. I really dont like the grouping together of people via labels either.

As far as the call out culture, I'm not against it, I just dont like when a person or group says something the other one doesnt, so they use a defaming 'ist' to shame the other person, when it's clear that original person/group isn't. That's when a tool meant for justice, turns into propaganda.


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## BardoBard

If a collective is uncentralized / has no internal system of accountability, outsiders still have to (and will) hold the collective accountable for their own sake.

So an unorganized collective like Antifa is judged by the actions of their worst outliers, rather than an internally enforced platform.

Ineffecient MO for making political progress


I'm for call-out culture, there's been a lot of heavy handedness recently, but the idea itself I'm for.


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## Coywolf

Now the one thing that scares the hell out of me with the current administration, is that they have hit every single point on the "early warning signs of Fascism" poster in the Holocaust museum....in 2 years.

Hitler did some very similar to Trump's Decleration of Emergency to seize power in Germany.

I seriously think this is the closest America has come to a fascist regieme, ever. If not Fascist, then at the very least Authoritarianism.

And the fact that so many seriously privileged young people choose to not involve themselves in politics, or educate themselves before voting, astounds me.

I see nothing but a fall for America....however, I'm pretty sure Bernie Sanders just announced his run in the primaries....so perhaps there is hope.


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## noothgrush

I'm sorry but antifa annoys the fuck out of me. Shit or get off the pot for Pete's sake.


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## noothgrush

If we could just sieze all the abandoned buildings and empty houses in the name of the people and give our brothers and sisters (that want it) a place to sleep, I wouldn't have anything to complain about.


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## BardoBard

Coywolf said:


> Now the one thing that scares the hell out of me with the current administration, is that they have hit every single point on the "early warning signs of Fascism" poster in the Holocaust museum....in 2 years.
> 
> Hitler did some very similar to Trump's Decleration of Emergency to seize power in Germany.
> 
> I seriously think this is the closest America has come to a fascist regieme, ever. If not Fascist, then at the very least Authoritarianism.
> 
> And the fact that so many seriously privileged young people choose to not involve themselves in politics, or educate themselves before voting, astounds me.
> 
> I see nothing but a fall for America....however, I'm pretty sure Bernie Sanders just announced his run in the primaries....so perhaps there is hope.



We're pretty close to the precipice right now, there are looming issues like automation which could make things a lot worse if the country doesnt shape up politically.

I'm optimistic that we'll work things out and keep the boat floating though

The only thing I dislike about Bernie is his chances of beating out the Republicans, they're pretty united behind Trump while Dems might be more split behind Bernie. Id still support his candidacy


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## noothgrush

you know the big timers already have an answer for potential civil unrest due to lost jobs from automation. Its militarization of the police force and intimidation tactics.


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## Coywolf

noothgrush said:


> you know the big timers already have an answer for potential civil unrest due to lost jobs from automation. Its militarization of the police force and intimidation tactics.



Ya, the automation debate needs to start happening NOW. Just like we should've done something about climate change 20 years ago.

I work around police alot in my line of work, and some of the things they are allowed to have/are given from the government is disgusting. Especially armored vehicles and .50 caliber machine guns mounted on trucks.

I've participated in many police trainings. The way they are trained scares me. Basically told that every citizen is a potential threat, and to treat them that way. Seriously. I know good people with free minds that were brainwashed into becoming trigger happy, hardcore conservative, nuts jobs from becoming a police officer. It's sad.

Comparatively to guys that come out of the millitary becoming the complete opposite that I've seen.


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## BardoBard

There's plenty to worry about thats for sure, can only hope that reason and not violence continues to prevail


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## noothgrush

Coywolf said:


> Ya, the automation debate needs to start happening NOW. Just like we should've done something about climate change 20 years ago.
> 
> I work around police alot in my line of work, and some of the things they are allowed to have/are given from the government is disgusting. Especially armored vehicles and .50 caliber machine guns mounted on trucks.
> 
> I've participated in many police trainings. The way they are trained scares me. Basically told that every citizen is a potential threat, and to treat them that way. Seriously. I know good people with free minds that were brainwashed into becoming trigger happy, hardcore conservative, nuts jobs from becoming a police officer. It's sad.
> 
> Comparatively to guys that come out of the millitary becoming the complete opposite that I've seen.


Universal basic income is the only idea I have heard in response to the AI question. It won't happen though because of idiots who are bitter about "having to work" and seeing others "get something for nothing".


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## Coywolf

noothgrush said:


> Universal basic income is the only idea I have heard in response to the AI question. It won't happen though because of idiots who are bitter about "having to work" and seeing others "get something for nothing".



They just did a UBI experiment in Finland, all the conservatives went crazy and called it a failure. This is a good read:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/02/opinion/universal-basic-income-finland.html


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## ResistMuchObeyLittle

I'm really going to have to think about this subject, but, I will say I really enjoyed this book. Discussing Politics and Religion is always risky. You can have one individual who is highly educated and unbiased debating with another individual who maybe forms an opinion off of something they've heard, yet has never actually read nor studied anything on Politics, Economics, etc. Ya just never know and usually no one is actually right. For that reason, I'm usually pretty reserved on expressing any thoughts on the subject/s. 

My goal this year is to read every 6 star book mentioned/reviewed by Robert David Steele in order to better understand Politics, Govt., Etc. 
https://phibetaiota.net/category/reviews/bookrating/6-star-special/


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## Coywolf

ResistMuchObeyLittle said:


> Ya just never know and usually no one is actually right. For that reason, I'm usually pretty reserved on expressing any thoughts on the subject/s.



Aw, but that's what makes it fun....::soapbox::


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## PeaceLoveHarmony

Their is a massive worldwide shift, people are becoming more and more reliant on government. Immigration is being purposely pushed from third to first world countries to form a one order world. We are still under the illusion that we have to have people in power to "control" And have to have power structures in government. I feel all fascist and authoritarian control are just examples of how we are living our daily life. We are always trying to get more from everything whether it be money, power, any material item, or nature. We have everything we could ever want or need eternally in our hearts. I feel the solution to this control is changing our lives and how we view world on an individual level. Realizing how blessed we really are to be on this earth and that this life is a gift and we are a gift to the earth. Much love and light to all ✌


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## Deleted member 20683

the question of what fascism is and what is to be done about it is not simple. on the one hand fascism is generally incoherent as ideology; whatever BS needs to be cobbled together to encourage violent reactionary populism to defend a capitalist state/society in crisis. hence fascist movements' self-justifying paranoia seeing 'communist revolution' everywhere. the symbol of fascism is the bundle of sticks with an ax blade because it represents the violent auxiliary organizations of right-wing men who force the transition out of democracy.

now this is not to say that the presence of tactics found in fascism are signs of fascism itself no matter the context. i am not much happier to see socialism back than fascism, or optimistic about a developing culture of violence on the left; but it is beyond short sighted to say that because antifascists try to deplatform fascists who are organizing to violently take over society and commit genocide, this is the same as a totalitarian government censoring people or whatever. suppressing speech is only one thing fascist systems tend to do (and far-right gatherings are not just speech).

on which point i'm also concerned that there is something a bit chimerical about the whole idea, or at least a red herring. for example, democracies - like the u.s. - can and do commit genocide and other awful things. democracy is not the opposite of fascism; the fact that fascists have come to power democratically shows that fascism is only a mode that democracy can switch to, an exaggeration of certain of its tendencies, much as it shares certain facets with socialism.


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## Coywolf

I agree with pretty much everything you said except this:



oak moth said:


> democracy is not the opposite of fascism; the fact that fascists have come to power democratically



I agree that yes, fascists have come to power democratically, however, this current admin. Has not. 

I believe that this admin came to power as a direct result of us being more of a republic than a democracy. The electoral college? Come on....not to mention the obvious Russian interference. But, that's another topic. Republics are dangerous. As they almost always turn into a country who has taxation without representation. And Oligarchies.


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## noothgrush

Aristotle actually ranks democracy as the worst political system because it leads to tyranny.


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## Coywolf

noothgrush said:


> Aristotle actually ranks democracy as the worst political system because it leads to tyranny.



Care to explain?


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## BardoBard

I think Aristotle was referring to the manipulative power of the wealthy / powerful, back in the day you could buy or extort votes pretty easily as well

In the end I think the struggle for political justice is eternal, any system being prey to human corruption. If you stop working out, you get out of shape


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## noothgrush

BardoBard said:


> I think Aristotle was referring to the manipulative power of the wealthy / powerful, back in the day you could buy or extort votes pretty easily as well
> 
> In the end I think the struggle for political justice is eternal, any system being prey to human corruption. If you stop working out, you get out of shape



Well that would be Oligarchy. But yeah he was referring to tyranny of the mob for instance the French revolution. I mean these are 2,000 year old ideas but a lot of his Politics still hold true today. Oddly enough he thought Aristocracy was the best form of rule which would kind of be akin to a Technocracy in today's world.


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## Honey Crust

Just saw this video and thought it would be an excellent addition to this thread for anyone who reads through it in the future


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## Maxnomad

https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1995/06/22/ur-fascism/


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## David1

Coywolf said:


> I wanted to start a discussion mainly on the topic of fascism, its history, and how it is still being implemented today.
> 
> I know this will be a tasty morsel for a few users on here, and I'm looking forward to hearing your opinions.
> 
> For those of you who are unfamiliar with fascism and it's incredibly destructive course in history, I direct you to the Wikipedia page:
> 
> Fascism - Wikipedia - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
> 
> I will get the ball rolling. First of all, I believe that many people on this website are severely misusing the term, and I would like to set that straight with this thread.
> 
> Fascism can be both on the right and the left. Hardcore left wing people do not like to hear this, however it is true just the same. I direct you to Joseph Stain's regiem. Or many governments who have used communism as a guise to create an authoritarian government. Mainly as a coup.
> 
> I am a liberal. Pretty hardcore liberal, actually. However the hard left is starting to really piss me off with their self righteousness. Mainly with the account of calling representative Omar an anti-semite for critisizing the government of Isreal (with due cause I might add). This is dangerous.
> 
> I am just really hoping the left does not fall victim to fascist tactics.
> 
> I know that @Skit was talking about the fact that Antifa was using borderline fascist tactics in their goal to actually fight fascism.
> 
> 
> Which I agree with. However I would stop far short of calling them actual fascists, which is what the right is trying to do.
> 
> Anyway, I'm rambling. I'm looking forward to the conversation.


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## Maxnomad

Shit! My bad!

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fascism


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