# After the fall of Capitalism?



## TheUndeadPhoenix

I was talking to somebody whose quickly becoming a friend about what she would like to see happen to government after the fall of Capitalism. I know most people want Anarchism, but think about it. There's always gonna be some form of gov't, from Mob Rule, Democracy, Communism, etc. Every system has pros, cons and people showing the biggest flaws of those systems (Caesar being the shining example of the Republic)

I personally think people should do what they like to do, something they would do for free today. That's why I am going to college to be a chef. I love to cook and I would do it for free, so long as I don't have to provide the materials or I already have them in my possession.

I see true anarchism being something along the lines of Democracy/Republic (without the figurehead/president), mob rule or Communism. I personally think that things like health care, WEAPON rights (not just guns) and other things from both sides are good ideals. You should always have something to protect yourself, because you never know when somebody has a mental break.

I'm against money, but there has to be some kind of barter system. If you want luxury stuff, you should trade food or something for it, but I couldn't see the world without money... :/ (I already started a thread about this http://squattheplanet.com/threads/what-would-life-without-money-be-like.11068/ )

ALSO, something that crossed my mind. What would happen to the nukes if we did take over the country? Not would we keep them. No, there's guys in the silos that can launch them whenever they want and there's other people besides the president that have the launch codes and they're only 8 numbers, from 00000000 to 99999999. 100,000,000 possible combinations, with the right machine it would only take 20 minutes to crack that. I don't think China would miss an opportunity to try to launch them... I don't know if you need direct access to the Nuclear Football or not, but this still disturbs me.

So I had no intentions of making this into an essay, but I did. I'm a writer so it happens. Summary: Gov't will never go away, but it can be made better and I want to know what you want to see happen to your country/world if Capitalism does fall and nukes scare me.


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## Yell

free pizza. for life.

no but really you know my feelings about everything


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

Yell said:


> free pizza. for life.
> 
> no but really you know my feelings about everything


Yep. You're the person I mentioned about lol


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## wizehop

If capitalism fails..which it wont fully (if at all), they wont resort BACK to an old style..they will move FORWARD with something new..and chances are the bottom feeders will still be pist. No protester or spanger will ever have a say in the direction of the world, save your energy..Occupy is a joke


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## bryanpaul

wizehop said:


> If capitalism fails..which it wont fully (if at all), they wont resort BACK to an old style..they will move FORWARD with something new..and chances are the bottom feeders will still be pist. No protester or spanger will ever have a say in the direction of the world, save your energy..Occupy is a joke


^ "occupy" is not a joke ....i cant say if the pissed off thousands will tangibly "change" the status quo...but to call people who say "this shit aint right" a joke?.......your a joke if you think the modus operandi/status quo is righteous or fair or good or positive or helpful or ....... i see it all as people with strong hearts and souls in the death throes...humanity's dying scream.......IT'S WRONG.....shit probably aint gonna change because of these protests..shit is probly gonna get worse because of it.....but, me personally, i'm done criticizing......cuz if you think the way things ARE are the way things OUGHTTA BE then good for you....but i think most of humanity disagrees...........
and honestly, you and your freemason shit can fuck off........i'm a peice of shit loser........ but............i still have a mind......... you need to think about shit dood!


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## wizehop

I do think and I do have a mind, and every day I make shit happen the way I want. I don't sit in fucking tents waiting for something to happen..that s the difference.....your pist at a government whos killing to get what they want and you camp in a park..and you wonder why your the forgotten people.
I'm not against what their saying..but as with every lame ass attempt Im against this pathetic fucking Amnesty international letter writing shit. Your pist at how things are...fucking do something.. Capitalists make shit happen..anarchist do shit (sitting in tents really)..that is why the world is the way it is..their out killing and fucking people over, and your getting drunk...think about it......


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## bryanpaul

what should they kill somebody?


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## bryanpaul

do you kill people to make shit the way you want it?


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## Alaska

Well, when the fall of Capitalism comes around, that would mean that Superman has already been sent back in time and landed in Ukraine. Thus, his Marxist dictatorship will rule the world in a utopian grip by 2001. So, yeah. There you go.


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## wizehop

they do kill people, daily...what have they been doing in the middle east? What happened to the Native population when the Europeans came over?..what did the Romans do? and so on. Whether any of us like it or not that is how shit gets done..you want them to stop you gotta kill them..but as passionate as people are about the cause they wont do a fucking thing besides setting up some lame ass camp that no one fucking cares about.
I dont need to kill because Im happy with the way things are, but I would..I can do what ever the fuck I want.. succeed or fail...I want to ride trains and be a bum..bam done...I want to work and be a slave to society bam done.....Ive done a lot of traveling around the world and we have it fucking good here..most of the world you think you can beg for fucking change, dumpster dive, get waisted and live of other peoples work, fuck no!
What the fuck is any one on this sight bitching about????? you lose a million is stocks..fucking doubt it man..
Every little shit on here has the same fucking chip on there shoulder against authority and will fucking jump on the old ohh our government is the reason Im a useless fuck. You unhappy with the way things are man and who you are, then do something..sitting in a fucking park like retards aint gonna change shit..mark my works.


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## bryanpaul

wizehop said:


> .sitting in a fucking park like retards aint gonna change shit..mark my works.


damn you....you win THIS TIME....


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## bryanpaul

GAHH...... my rebuttal involves religious connotations........anyway, i really like how this is all geared toward nonviolence....if you cant see that the old paradigm of "war against your enemy" is outdated then i dont know what to tell you....


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## wizehop

Sorry man, drunk debating...I'm not for violence per say, my point is you gotta fight fire with fire..sitting in a park isn't the solution(especially since the general public barely notices). Unfortunately I cant give you a solution either because as far as I'm concerned my life is great. I live in a time when I can literally do what ever the fuck I want, and I don't wait on any government to make my life complete. The day you take responsibility for your own life you'll know what true freedom is.. people fought to have this corrupt ass system, no one is fighting to get rid of it. I will side 100% of the time with people who stand behind there convictions and this occupy moment isnt cutting it in my books.

fuck the 99%


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## bicycle

This system will blow the whole world up and kill everything including itself to not give up its status.
The only thing you can do is do what you think is right and turn your back on the system as much as possible.
Boycotting brands, buying less, making more yourself, recycling and reusing yourself as much as possible, instead of buying new things searching them in the street or second hand, repairing shit, give older things a longer life and a greater soul.
Use less energy, heat only when really really needed, or if you are afraid that mold would start to settle.
work less for money so there is less money in the banks and in the system and try get what you need alternative ways, like growing your own food.
do not leech off the system by taking wellfare if you can work or earn money other ways.
if spanging, dont just hold your fucking hand up but make music, try sell your own written poems or artcards for a dollar or so.
dont vote, dont listen to their radio, dont watch tv, build your own radio stations or listen to pirate radio.
DONT USE FACEBOOK or other shit like that, its government tech, you support the shit you hate.
there is no system, if there is it is theirs but not yours.
be consequent in what you believe.
the only real thing what you can do is try and be less of a hypocrite that you are at the moment.
support yourself, support your community, dont leech.. give!


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## bicycle

if capitalism will fall most of us would not survive its first year.
small decentralized groups will arrise, each functioning to their own beliefs.


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## shiftingGEARS

The occupy movements are only in faze one (public awareness) wait until faze two starts up because people are now sick of being slammed in the head and ribs with sticks, I think the momentum of the movements has to be amped up, they need more direct action.. burn it all down..

I would like to live in a country where I am truly free to just live my life without some assholes trying to tell me otherwise. If anyone thinks they have "freedom", they are living in a fantasy land. There is no room for freedom in a police state...


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## technotrash

for the record, not everyone at occupy was "just sitting in tents" (nobody's in a tent now because they raided the park)....there's a direct action planning group and affinity groups were planning and executing actions. the park was just a centralized meeting ground. but on that note, yes there were lots of assholes who sat around and got drunk, just don't apply that to the whole movement because it simply isn't true.


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## wizehop

When things are moving I'll believe its a movement. I'm just surprised STPers give a shit about what the banks and government are doing. What happened to all those kids who live on their own terms, off the grid?..anyone on here lose a mil in investments lately, I doubt it.


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## ipoPua

noone at the occupation who has any clue why theyre there thinks the occupations are the solution. like techno said theyre just places for people to come together to discuss whats wrong in the world and how they think we can fix it. and i agree with you that we in the states have it great, but you obviously havent spent any time at your local occ or you'd realize that most of the people there know how lucky they are, and are more upset with what the gov does to people all around the world, how they treat the earth, how they trick people who grew up poor into becoming drug addicts so they dont get too pissed off and make a change, and so on. theres so much in the world to be pissed about and if you honestly think the occupations are all about MY LIFE SUCKS then youve obviously gotten all of your knowledge about them from either the tv or people who got theirs from the tv. if you're gonna talk shit, maybe you should know what youre talking about. yeah, you and i can have great lives hitching around and living off the excesses of this disgusting society, but what about the kids in the middle east, africa, the rainforests, whose lives, whose WORLDS have been completely fucked by a few rich white dudes so they can get just a little bit richer. this isn't only about us.

/end

p.s. i kinda repeated myself and didnt put my words together too great but i dont give a shit.


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## shiftingGEARS

Its hard to live on your "own terms" when there is outside sources working against you, if your not for the movement stay under your rock that is full of fantasies and illusions..


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## Yell

the occupations are a tool to make everyone aware. instead of remaining ignorant to change. The occupations are only just the begining.


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## ipoPua

until a few days ago i'd been camped at the buffalo occupation for about a month and a half, and i saw so many people coming in and finding out about drones and fracking, mountain top removal and malcolm x and i'm not even gonna start listing but there's so much ignorance in this country. changing that and making plans to try and change other things(really big, scary, powerful things) are really all these things are about. well that and also building a sense of true community. you find a real family there, with people you never wouldve even said a word to otherwise. it's amazing, seriously magical stuff.

p.s. as for my answer to the poll i chose other because i feel like no matter how your government gets things done, what matters is that it be done locally, by and for the good of the people. democracy is a wonderful thing, but when youre counting the votes of a million people it kind of becomes redundant, even if they actually -did- count the votes which i honestly just don't believe they do. and the people we put in office are all just commercials, liars telling the public what they think we want to hear. but i'm sure i'm not telling anyone anything new with that so i'll shut up now


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## Yell

ipoPua said:


> until a few days ago i'd been camped at the buffalo occupation for about a month and a half, and i saw so many people coming in and finding out about drones and fracking, mountain top removal and malcolm x and i'm not even gonna start listing but there's so much ignorance in this country. changing that and making plans to try and change other things(really big, scary, powerful things) are really all these things are about. well that and also building a sense of true community. you find a real family there, with people you never wouldve even said a word to otherwise. it's amazing, seriously magical stuff.



I have been staying at wall streets occupation since the first day. I have a family now, people who are like minded and we all fit into a group in a way that makes everything work great. Not only has the occupation expanded my political beliefs and the way i see things, but it gave me a family. and people i'd die for. I haven't felt much like i've fit anymore before in my life. But with them, and in the occupations. I feel like i can do something great.


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## shiftingGEARS

I will be there soon, within the next week or so.. have been keeping tabs on the movement from day one, now I need to be there.


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## Yell

let me know when you arrive!


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## ipoPua

i've been considering going down since the beginning, but i really wanna head south for the winter and i dunno if getting arrested would fuck that up so i haven't. i'm probably just overthinking


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## shiftingGEARS

Yell said:


> let me know when you arrive!


i will try, dont know how i would unless you have a number


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## Yell

here


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## shiftingGEARS

rad maybe?


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## Yell

i don't have a reliable phone. the best way is to get at me on here. or facebook. if you so choose. facebook.com/kaythegay


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## Sydney

wow! this was great, I really learned a lot here. I'm just sitting on the computer learning from all you guys on this most fucked up "Thanksgiving" alone. You guys are the best family I never had.


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## Alaska

shiftingGEARS said:


> Its hard to live on your "own terms" when there is outside sources working against you, if your not for the movement stay under your rock that is full of fantasies and illusions..



I suppose you always believe in extremes, eh?


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## wizehop

Working against us..really guys..what the fuck are you trying to do with your life that some force is working against you? we are our own masters..I have yet to have any one but myself come in between me and what I may think I want.

So only rich white american guys fuck people over?? (get of the crimeshit) dumbest shit Ive ever herd all week..I've done a shit load of traveling and most of the fucking over is done locally by local crew, not just fancey USA. Did the US government fuck over the Roman Empire? or was it CIA run. People have held power over each other long before the US was even a fucking land mass.
And you know what, if people don't get what these 99% park dwelling resistance without dong fuck all fucksticks care about, then its a huge fucking FAIL. ... Get off this Macdonals is evil shit or do something about it. either way get out of the park because the crack heads want there turf back.

I fucking love macdonalds even though its not real food, I work when I want cash to travel and I dont when I dont want to....give me an example of how any of you sorry 99% fucks have it so bad that your willing to camp out to make a tough stand against this reality. I doubt any little punk wanna bees on this sight have any real reason to be pist at the governemt..lets fucking hear how hard any of you have work and had the government and or banks take it all away!

And Im not American I might add


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## Yell

Wizehop. You are aware this movement didn't start in the united states. It is global.


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## shiftingGEARS

Yell said:


> i don't have a reliable phone. the best way is to get at me on here. or facebook. if you so choose. facebook.com/kaythegay


oh thats cool, phones suck anyway, if i find some webz i will drop you a line


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## shiftingGEARS

wizehop said:


> Working against us..really guys..what the fuck are you trying to do with your life that some force is working against you? we are our own masters..I have yet to have any one but myself come in between me and what I may think I want.
> 
> So only rich white american guys fuck people over?? (get of the crimeshit) dumbest shit Ive ever herd all week..I've done a shit load of traveling and most of the fucking over is done locally by local crew, not just fancey USA. Did the US government fuck over the Roman Empire? or was it CIA run. People have held power over each other long before the US was even a fucking land mass.
> And you know what, if people don't get what these 99% park dwelling resistance without dong fuck all fucksticks care about, then its a huge fucking FAIL. ... Get off this Macdonals is evil shit or do something about it. either way get out of the park because the crack heads want there turf back.
> 
> I fucking love macdonalds even though its not real food, I work when I want cash to travel and I dont when I dont want to....give me an example of how any of you sorry 99% fucks have it so bad that your willing to camp out to make a tough stand against this reality. I doubt any little punk wanna bees on this sight have any real reason to be pist at the governemt..lets fucking hear how hard any of you have work and had the government and or banks take it all away!
> 
> And Im not American I might add


you'll change your tune when society finally collapse's and you have to resort to jerking off raccoon's for their sweet nectar.


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## wizehop

ahaha man I secretly dream of an appocolyps..and hey lots of raccoon in my hood so I should be good


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## shiftingGEARS

wizehop said:


> I doubt any little punk wanna bees on this sight have any real reason to be pist at the governemt..lets fucking hear how hard any of you have work and had the government and or banks take it all away!


 i have been watching countless family members, friends familys ,and random people trying to fight debt my whole life. iv watched my mom get destroyed by the interests in her student loans, i watched my grand mother lose her job due to corporate buy out and out sourcing, iv been watching my dad for the last 2 years struggle to find any work in his trade unless he wanted to work for Halliburton and make missiles. i have been watching these people, my family dragged through the mud and you want to know why we fight, i'm fighting for my fucking family and a future that maybe i might have one day.


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## Yell

it is better to fight, than be a lazy liberal


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## Earth

First: only way capitalism is gonna come down is if the pigs get off'd.
Second: those who chose to skate through life and do nothing, that's fine - be a parasite, comsume and give nothing back - just stay the fuck out of my sight.
Third: some of us have chosen to (say for example) toil in a factory to make some cash for what we really want to do with our lives (ex: build a killer recording studio which caters to bands that would otherwise NEVER get the chance to record), the lucky ones will be jobless with no outstanding student loans/debt/a will to survive by any means necessary...
Fourth: Fuck McDonalds.
Fifth: The revolution WILL be televised.

Bullet proof love to all the brothers and sister's who are fighting the system / going after the rich pigs.
(and if there are those who got a problem with that, they can go fuck off)


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## ipoPua

wizehop said:


> Working against us..really guys..what the fuck are you trying to do with your life that some force is working against you? we are our own masters..I have yet to have any one but myself come in between me and what I may think I want.
> 
> So only rich white american guys fuck people over??...etc



i like how you just totally ignored everything i said to you, that was real smooth


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## wizehop

I read what you wrote, I didn't realize there was anything to respond too..especially concerning the quote you just posted..maybe I missed something?


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## Yell

You seem to be missing everything.


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## wizehop

enlighten me, or better yet show me.


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## ipoPua

the words i left in the quote were just to show what i was responding to. it really doesnt seem like you did read what i said, because i already responded to everything in the quoted post in my earlier one.


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## Alaska

This whole thread is ridiculous, with no real coherent arguments. Why is this, STPers?


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## wizehop

Oh I read what you wrote but its unsatisfactory..as a matter of fact most of this ant government/capitalist rants on here are pathetic...just like sitting in a fucking park thinking its going to create change....
This threat is retarded because every fucking week some fucking kid who has it good posts about the fall of everything..since the first day I came on here its been the same shit. No one on here is ever going to do anything about it. These post are just self righteous masturbation and its the same fucking post every time..search it

NOTHING WILL FAIL, NO EMPIRE WILL CRUMBLE, WERE NOT GOING BACKWARDS TO FUCKING COMMUNISM, GO HOME, Most are actually already packing up..like the pussies they are...you camped for a moth?? bit fucking deal..I've camped for three and?

This shit is the same as the fucking Jesus people who keep going on about the end of the world. Get over it


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## Pheonix

blah, blah, blah. the problem with Capitalism is not with the system it's self. the flaw is in the minds of the humans that are running the system. what you will end up with after the fall of Capitalism is another flawed fucked-up system cause the people running the new system will still have the same human emotions that destroy every system, greed and hatred.

greed and hatred are human emotions that all humans have to some degree or another. humans will never be able to create a perfect system cause humans are far from perfect. the flaws of this system will carry over to the next, perfection will never be attained.


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

Alaska said:


> This whole thread is ridiculous, with no real coherent arguments. Why is this, STPers?


Cuz they fuckin took my thread and started a debate about something other then what I originally intended


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

pheonix said:


> blah, blah, blah. the problem with Capitalism is not with the system it's self. the flaw is in the minds of the humans that are running the system. what you will end up with after the fall of Capitalism is another flawed fucked-up system cause the people running the new system will still have the same human emotions that destroy every system, greed and hatred.
> 
> greed and hatred are human emotions that all humans have to some degree or another. humans will never be able to create a perfect system cause humans are far from perfect. the flaws of this system will carry over to the next, perfection will never be attained.



Capitalism is actually a big problem. The basis of capitalism, CAPITAL, AKA bottom line, is a problem. Capitalism just encourages greed. But then again, the people that made it were greedy fucks in the first place >_>


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## Pheonix

TheUndeadPhoenix said:


> Capitalism is actually a big problem. The basis of capitalism, CAPITAL, AKA bottom line, is a problem. Capitalism just encourages greed. But then again, the people that made it were greedy fucks in the first place >_>



the point is every problem in the system was created by man. how can you expect to make a new better system when the original flaw is ignored so it can surface again later? who is going to make this new system? another flawed human that's who.

because I know better then to trust that any human will put my needs and wants, equal to greater then their own. I will never believe that a system created by man will have my needs and wants in mind. personal liberty in never given by a system (any system) it's always something you must fight for.

I personally don't think the Occupy Movement has my best interest in mind. are the 99% really looking out for for the bottom 5%. I heard of protesters trying to get the homeless to leave the parks that they are occupying cause they bring a bad light to the movement. if they don't care about us now when they can use our help for their little movement what makes you think they will want you around after the movement is over?


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

pheonix said:


> I personally don't think the Occupy Movement has my best interest in mind. are the 99% really looking out for for the bottom 5%. I heard of protesters trying to get the homeless to leave the parks that they are occupying cause they bring a bad light to the movement. if they don't care about us now when they can use our help for their little movement what makes you think they will want you around after the movement is over?


They're being manipulated by the Koch brothers anyway. If they actually wanted to change something, they'd put the homeless people on the pedestal. That's what's going to happen to them in the next 5 years, so get ready.


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## Rancho

Well the truth is capitalism WILLfail we don't have the resources to maintain it and when it does one of two things will happen we will either become a global world order where government and enterprise will work systematically to control the distribution of what little reasources are left OR remaining communities will become warring tribes


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## ipoPua

you obviously either didn't read it or somehow didn't understand a word i said, because i said nothing about the fall of capitalism. i was talking about education and community. and rancho i don't think it's a oneorother situation, there will be a centralized attempt at distribution but there will always be people working outside of the official channels.


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## Rancho

ipoPua said:


> you obviously either didn't read it or somehow didn't understand a word i said, because i said nothing about the fall of capitalism. i was talking about education and community. and rancho i don't think it's a oneorother situation, there will be a centralized attempt at distribution but there will always be people working outside of the official channels.


I wasn't referring specifically to any of your posts I was just pointing it out this thread is about the fall of capitalism after all, and honestly at that point with civilization as we know it in throws of parelle I think most people will embrace the idea of one or other sound descion making snd the prospect of centeralized international government, people like that sorta shit it makes them feel in control. Of course there are people working against the grid but they are outliers minority ideological groups not massive status quo breakers


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## bicycle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLBE5QAYXp8


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## ipoPua

no the first half of that was for wizehop not you. and what i'm saying is that i think in the next few years youre gonna see the numbers of independent groups increase massively.


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## ipoPua

both phoenixes, like i say the occupy movement isnt the final product. its just a meeting place for different groups to form out of and for people to educate each other. alot of the people at any occupation are control freaks and all other sorts of douchebags, but theyre still important things to be happening. its not about the occupations, its about what the occupations usher in.

oops sorry i forgot i was the post right before this my bad. is there a way to delete comments or?

oh and pheonix i agree, like i said in another post, that any government trying to enforce rules on people that didnt have input in said rules is going to fail greatly. local local local take care of each other.


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

ipoPua said:


> oops sorry i forgot i was the post right before this my bad. is there a way to delete comments or?


Who cares? You can't edit anyway. And I'm just waiting for Occupy to evolve into a real revolution. Every single revolution to date that has worked has had 1 thing in common (whether they were over throwing oppression or not). VIOLENCE. You have to show your force to become free. And its not like we can kill the gov't and plutocrats and be done. We have to establish a government of our own and declare war. Otherwise its terrorism.


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## Pheonix

Rancho said:


> Well the truth is capitalism WILLfail we don't have the resources to maintain it and when it does one of two things will happen we will either become a global world order where government and enterprise will work systematically to control the distribution of what little reasources are left OR remaining communities will become warring tribes



world communism will be very fascist. communism has the same flaw I mentioned earlier, the human leader of the communist government will create flaws in that system so he or she will always be in a position of higher wealth, power and influence. regardless of the actual system, special interest groups are secretly running every government in a way that insures they will have a productive future. no one cares about your future everyone cares about their own future.

but I do like your other possibility it sounds good. it sounds like tribal confederacy. but I choose to stay of the topic of confederacy.


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

I think the best form of government would be this: One "supervisory" gov't with no power watching the world and giving updates to the gov't with power, the community/city states. I hate many things from many different governments, but I like others. I like parliamentary socialism the most out of what we have today, but even that sucks ass.


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## ipoPua

but then theres still the problem of corruption within the supervisors. who watches the watchers and all that. i really think people need to just stop supporting the corporate war machine and build local infrastructure instead of participating in this big game of working for a company that created/caters to a false need so that you can fulfill that imagined need. we'll end up needing to defend ourselves from them but we have to start somewhere. the revolution needs to be about the land. theyre waging war on it all around the world, and it IS a war. they dont want us to be able to organize into self sustaining cooperatives without being under their thumb.


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## Yell

In the end. No matter what system gets built replacing any other system. That system will become corrupt, and replaced by other things. Men are an abomination.


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## Pheonix

ipoPua said:


> both phoenixes, like i say the occupy movement isnt the final product. its just a meeting place for different groups to form out of and for people to educate each other. alot of the people at any occupation are control freaks and all other sorts of douchebags, but theyre still important things to be happening. its not about the occupations, its about what the occupations usher in.



I would love to help but only if it will benefit me in some way. but I think regardless of weather the movement is successful or not, I will still be struggling. I still won't be able to find a job regardless of weather there are jobs or not. my problems with finding jobs are no or little work history, tats on hands, no address, no phone number.

I haven't lost faith in the government (cause I never had faith in them to begin with) but due to my experiences in the last 20 years, I've lost my faith in humanity. that's why I'm against any system with a human overlord. absolute power corrupts absolutely. I will not fight just to change from one overlord to another. that's why I'm a confederate let each state clean up their own house. why do we need one great system that forces the states what laws to make, and how to enforce them.


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## Rancho

pheonix said:


> I would love to help but only if it will benefit me in some way. but I think regardless of weather the movement is successful or not, I will still be struggling. I still won't be able to find a job regardless of weather there are jobs or not. my problems with finding jobs are no or little work history, tats on hands, no address, no phone number.
> 
> I haven't lost faith in the government (cause I never had faith in them to begin with) but due to my experiences in the last 20 years, I've lost my faith in humanity. that's why I'm against any system with a human overlord. absolute power corrupts absolutely. I will not fight just to change from one overlord to another. that's why I'm a confederate let each state clean up their own house. why do we need one great system that forces the states what laws to make, and how to enforce them.



Because independent states are an antiquated notion. The world is in a frenzy of global communication and acquiring and merging more enterprises. People like the idea of simplicity and the more answers one deity can provide, the more power potential there is.


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## Redd Capp

Power abours a vacume. Even in so called anachist collectives (stores,houses,farms) somebody is in charge (usaulay a small group of people who have been there the longest) and if a member starts giving them shit out the door they go. The Local CO-OPs in Brattleboro and Burlington started with good intentions and was run by a bunch of hippies but became corp. like everyone else with a Manager and a Board to the point of fighting with there own Union.


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## Rancho

Redd Capp said:


> Power abours a vacume. Even in so called anachist collectives (stores,houses,farms) somebody is in charge (usaulay a small group of people who have been there the longest) and if a member starts giving them shit out the door they go. The Local CO-OPs in Brattleboro and Burlington started with good intentions and was run by a bunch of hippies but became corp. like everyone else with a Manager and a Board to the point of fighting with there own Union.



Again only future reiterating my point


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## Pheonix

Rancho said:


> Because independent states are an antiquated notion. The world is in a frenzy of global communication and acquiring and merging more enterprises. People like the idea of simplicity and the more answers one deity can provide, the more power potential there is.



your trying to find a system that will work for everyone and that's impossible. it's also fascist to decide one system to be the best for all. for instance medical weed is greatly supported in CA but OK wants nothing to do with it. how do you justify forcing everyone to obey one deity. what about the people that don't agree with your system are you going to kill them or throw them in jail. it seems to me your proposing a NWO just without the assholes that are their now. how can you be sure the new leaders won't be just as bad or worse.


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## Rancho

pheonix said:


> your trying to find a system that will work for everyone and that's impossible. it's also fascist to decide one system to be the best for all. for instance medical weed is greatly supported in CA but OK wants nothing to do with it. how do you justify forcing everyone to obey one deity. what about the people that don't agree with your system are you going to kill them or throw them in jail. it seems to me your proposing a NWO just without the assholes that are their now. how can you be sure the new leaders won't be just as bad or worse.


Honey the new leaders WILL be worse. I don't really know where you got my explanation of the enivietable as my vote for the new world order but you obviously misinterpreted. Differences on social standpoints mean nothing, they are political red herrings that will be controversial in a society that will soon cease to exist. What really matters is our resources people want to make a difference? It needs to be a grass roots movement. People willing to stop using banks and buying SUVs but that won't happen. I don't want anew world order I don't even like the current one. But I can't help the way the world is headed its got to be a collective movement


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## Pheonix

those red herrings (as you put them) will not go away when the government does. would slavery have been one of these red herrings? those social standpoints mean everything. take a look at the civil war no one wanted to fight to bring the union to power. Lincoln finally realized that the only way he can win a war over what political system will be in power, is to change people's view of the war thus the war of political supremacy got a new image and became a war for civil liberties.


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## Rancho

pheonix said:


> those red herrings (as you put them) will not go away when the government does. would slavery have been one of these red herrings? those social standpoints mean everything. take a look at the civil war no one wanted to fight to bring the union to power. Lincoln finally realized that the only way he can win a war over what political system will be in power, is to change people's view of the war thus the war of political supremacy got a new image and became a war for civil liberties.





pheonix said:


> those red herrings (as you put them) will not go away when the government does. would slavery have been one of these red herrings? those social standpoints mean everything. take a look at the civil war no one wanted to fight to bring the union to power. Lincoln finally realized that the only way he can win a war over what political system will be in power, is to change people's view of the war thus the war of political supremacy got a new image and became a war for civil liberties.


Again you're misinterpreting. Frankly I'm just going to say part of this country's problem is the domestic isolationism. In Europe I can be in an entirely different country within 4 hours. Here you move across regions and you might as well need a passport culturally I'm talking Ina much broader perspective, you know like the rest of the world. There's a reason the the confederate states never caught on it, it's complicated and creates tensions within a nation, that's part of the problem in modern libria.


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## Pheonix

Rancho said:


> Again you're misinterpreting. Frankly I'm just going to say part of this country's problem is the domestic isolationism. In Europe I can be in an entirely different country within 4 hours. Here you move across regions and you might as well need a passport culturally I'm talking Ina much broader perspective, you know like the rest of the world. There's a reason the the confederate states never caught on it, it's complicated and creates tensions within a nation, that's part of the problem in modern libria.



your forgetting the more successful confederacies the UN and the European Union. comparing all systems to the worst government that used that system is moronic.


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## Rancho

pheonix said:


> your forgetting the more successful confederacies the UN and the European Union. comparing all systems to the worst government that used that system is moronic.


And funny you should say its moronic when we are talking about the fall of the capitalist state meaning the us why have history repeat itself? I just don't see the logic is all


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## Pheonix

Rancho said:


> And funny you should say its moronic when we are talking about the fall of the capitalist state meaning the us why have history repeat itself? I just don't see the logic is all



the down fall of american confederacy was not the system it's self, it was slavery. if we went back to confederacy, slavery will still be abolished. the confederacy did and will always obey a central constitution. back then slavery was not in the constitution but now it is. if we went back to confederacy all states will still obey the constitution with clearly states the abolishment of slavery and the only way to change it is with a majority vote in congress (with will never happen)

I don't see anything moronic in thinking what didn't work 200 years ago still won't work today. a lot of people here are communist but I would never tell them that there system won't work due to the actions of Stalin. I would never claim catholicism is wrong due to the actions of bloody mary. I think it's moronic that many english protestants hate catholics due to something horrible that the former queen did in the name of god.

the government that is screwing things up is the Union that won that war. I believe that back then the Union was the better option but now the Union has gotten to big and powerful. most of the problems that arise in a federation do not cause any problems in confederacy (and vice versa) if your waiting to find that one perfect system before you destroy the one that is not working at all, then we are doomed to fail. but if we replace the failing system with one that will work for 10 to 20 years before the flaws start coming out. then we will be better of for 10 to 20 years and after that we can replace the system with a better system and so on and so on.

I would love to see history repeat it's self. I believe we need to get back to the principles set by our founding fathers. I like many of our founding fathers believe the only way we can be free is with an armed revolution every 20 years or so. you'll never find one system that will work forever but finding a system that will work for 20 years is easy and if everyone becomes happy with the new system we can keep it longer if needs be.


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## Rancho

pheonix said:


> the down fall of american confederacy was not the system it's self, it was slavery. if we went back to confederacy, slavery will still be abolished. the confederacy did and will always obey a central constitution. back then slavery was not in the constitution but now it is. if we went back to confederacy all states will still obey the constitution with clearly states the abolishment of slavery and the only way to change it is with a majority vote in congress (with will never happen)
> 
> I don't see anything moronic in thinking what didn't work 200 years ago still won't work today. a lot of people here are communist but I would never tell them that there system won't work due to the actions of Stalin. I would never claim catholicism is wrong due to the actions of bloody mary. I think it's moronic that many english protestants hate catholics due to something horrible that the former queen did in the name of god.
> 
> the government that is screwing things up is the Union that won that war. I believe that back then the Union was the better option but now the Union has gotten to big and powerful. most of the problems that arise in a federation do not cause any problems in confederacy (and vice versa) if your waiting to find that one perfect system before you destroy the one that is not working at all, then we are doomed to fail. but if we replace the failing system with one that will work for 10 to 20 years before the flaws start coming out. then we will be better of for 10 to 20 years and after that we can replace the system with a better system and so on and so on.
> 
> I would love to see history repeat it's self. I believe we need to get back to the principles set by our founding fathers. I like many of our founding fathers believe the only way we can be free is with an armed revolution every 20 years or so. you'll never find one system that will work forever but finding a system that will work for 20 years is easy and if everyone becomes happy with the new system we can keep it longer if needs be.


I gotta say I think it's pretty naive to think our 'founding fathers' weren't as morally corrupt or questionable as the people we see in power now.
And it's also naive to believe that slavey was some put upon notion that destroyed the confederate states when ultimately it was disorganization and a lack of solid infrastructure that was the downfall. Sure things can always be corrected but I still believe its not viable for the current state of affairs. It has nothing to do with the long gone slavery again you misinterpreted.
You make some great points. But I still just don't see a confederate state being the answer I think it encourages conflict and isolationism within one nation which ultimately helps no one.


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## Deleted member 363

I don't understand why the majority wants anarchy. If I gave you a one way ticket to Somalia would you go? I highly doubt it. Isn't the goal of anarchy to crash the current form of government, so that a different form of government can be put in place? I mean, shouldn't all the other types of government be getting votes? I voted for republic, which is what the country is intended to be. It is currently more of a oligarchy who are influenced by corporations.

I've mostly been a lurker for years, but I'm honestly a little confused by the STP mentality/attitude when it comes to government and anarchy.


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## Rancho

KC9GPJ said:


> I don't understand why the majority wants anarchy. If I gave you a one way ticket to Somalia would you go? I highly doubt it. Isn't the goal of anarchy to crash the current form of government, so that a different form of government can be put in place? I mean, shouldn't all the other types of government be getting votes?


I feel like a lot of that is just people venting frustrations about the current systems. There's a pseudo notion of peaceful anarchy but I don't think people are self aware enough for that


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## Pheonix

Rancho said:


> I gotta say I think it's pretty naive to think our 'founding fathers' weren't as morally corrupt or questionable as the people we see in power now.
> And it's also naive to believe that slavey was some put upon notion that destroyed the confederate states when ultimately it was disorganization and a lack of solid infrastructure that was the downfall. Sure things can always be corrected but I still believe its not viable for the current state of affairs. It has nothing to do with the long gone slavery again you misinterpreted.
> You make some great points. But I still just don't see a confederate state being the answer I think it encourages conflict and isolationism within one nation which ultimately helps no one.



our founding fathers weren't nowhere near as corrupt as our presidents today, but they do have the potentual of being corrupt. and that has nothing to do with their political views it's because they were human. I think the reason the founding fathers had better morals then the current politician since our founding fathers were protesters rebelling against an oppressive king. it pisses me off to here you compare our founding fathers to the current idiots when they were in a position closer to that of the protesters. I've been trying to understand your point of view but I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.


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## Rancho

pheonix said:


> our founding fathers weren't nowhere near as corrupt as our presidents today, but they do have the potentual of being corrupt. and that has nothing to do with their political views it's because they were human. I think the reason the founding fathers had better morals then the current politician since our founding fathers were protesters rebelling against an oppressive king. it pisses me off to here you compare our founding fathers to the current idiots when they were in a position closer to that of the protesters. I've been trying to understand your point of view but I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.


They were a bunch of slave owning rich guys who didn't want to pay taxes they did that to serve themselves! Don't get me wrong Thomas Jefferson was a very eloquent man who had some charming innovation but your all or nothing black n white thinking just isn't viable.


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## Pheonix

owning slaves was not morally wrong at that time if your gonna analyze historical events and people you have to put it in the content of the times. if the future proves god to not exist will the future people look down on their religiously devoted ansestors for not knowing at the very beginning that they were wrong? how were they to know owning slaves would be wrong in 100 years into the future? what if protesting is considered wrong in 200 years from now? when Hitler got sentenced to 9 years for war crimes how was the judge to know what would happen when Hitler got released? I'm far from all or nothing I'm more then willing to compromise and my political opinions change as I learn more. but for the life of me I can understand your point of view but I respect your right to your own opinion.


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## Rancho

pheonix said:


> owning slaves was not morally wrong at that time if your gonna analyze historical events and people you have to put it in the content of the times. if the future proves god to not exist will the future people look down on their religiously devoted ansestors for not knowing at the very beginning that they were wrong? how were they to know owning slaves would be wrong in 100 years into the future? what if protesting is considered wrong in 200 years from now? when Hitler got sentenced to 9 years for war crimes how was the judge to know what would happen when Hitler got released? I'm far from all or nothing I'm more then willing to compromise and my political opinions change as I learn more. but for the life of me I can understand your point of view but I respect your right to your own opinion.


Wow ok... So in nazi Germany where there was society advocating discrimination it was okay because. It was "in the context of the time" ? if you see human life as a thing of value only in historical context, I feel sorry for you because thats warped. Wrong is wrong. don't color me in shades to try and make your point seem valid ethically that is absurd. And forgive me but i fail to see any logic in your thought process. Read some books.


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## Rancho

Rancho said:


> Wow ok... So in nazi Germany where there was society advocating discrimination it was okay because. It was "in the context of the time" ? if you see human life as a thing of value only in historical context, I feel sorry for you because thats warped. Wrong is wrong. don't color me in shades to try and make your point seem valid ethically that is absurd. And forgive me but i fail to see any logic in your thought process. Read some books.


 

I dont need someone else to. Tell me what a person is worth. At the end of the day we are all the same dirt. I refuse to pardon some where others are hugn from just because they enable a certain ideology I happen to support. that's when our beautiful ideas become our terrible demise. 










I don't need the world to tell me what anyone is worth, I don't need history to do that. I am a human capable of empathy and compassion and I can see the value in your life and other peoples. In the end government isn't even real it's an illusion that gives people the idea that they are above someone else when really at the the end of the day we are all the same dirt.


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

This is my view on slavery and after that I want you guys to stop talking about it, please.

If you are a criminal, but are not a murderer, you should be able to work off your crimes and have no record and be forgiven, like the slaves they have in the bible. Make it voluntary though. Either you're a community slave or you go to jail. As long as its reliable that you won't either escape or fuck somebody up, they should give you the option. NO HEAVY LABOR SHIT. NO CHAIN GANGS. I mean like cleaning and cooking shit.


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## Rancho

Btw George Washington that "great founding father" he murdered hundreds of native americans. Exploiting the land from its originally people and killing them too. What a winner.


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## ipoPua

i'd second that but i also think rapists should be killed. slowly. and i don't care if that's primitive or cruel, rape is primitive and cruel. i know that's only a detail but hey. and i'm too stoned to catch up on what else you guys were talking about but yell, i really like that 'same dirt' stuff. it's true and i really love the feel of it

and seriously fuck the founding fathers, this land was something great til they destroyed the natural way.


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## Rancho

TheUndeadPhoenix said:


> This is my view on slavery and after that I want you guys to stop talking about it, please.
> 
> If you are a criminal, but are not a murderer, you should be able to work off your crimes and have no record and be forgiven, like the slaves they have in the bible. Make it voluntary though. Either you're a community slave or you go to jail. As long as its reliable that you won't either escape or fuck somebody up, they should give you the option. NO HEAVY LABOR SHIT. NO CHAIN GANGS. I mean like cleaning and cooking shit.


That's a well thoughtful concept, but it's not slavery it's serving out a criminal sentence. Slavery is exploiting a group unwillfully for ones personal gain


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## Rancho

ipoPua said:


> i'd second that but i also think rapists should be killed. slowly. and i don't care if that's primitive or cruel, rape is primitive and cruel. i know that's only a detail but hey. and i'm too stoned to catch up on what else you guys were talking about but yell, i really like that 'same dirt' stuff. it's true and i really love the feel of it
> 
> and seriously fuck the founding fathers, this land was something great til they destroyed the natural way.


Yell didn't say that. I did


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## ipoPua

oops like i said baked. sorry lol


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

Rancho said:


> That's a well thoughtful concept, but it's not slavery it's serving out a criminal sentence. Slavery is exploiting a group unwillfully for ones personal gain


True, but that's the way the Hebrews did it. Not the Israelites, not the Jews, the Hebrews, of like 1000 BC. Hell, they even got paid for being of service when they were freed. And I thought being a slave was either working for NO money or very little money..?


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## Rancho

TheUndeadPhoenix said:


> True, but that's the way the Hebrews did it. Not the Israelites, not the Jews, the Hebrews, of like 1000 BC. Hell, they even got paid for being of service when they were freed. And I thought being a slave was either working for NO money or very little money..?


It's a matter of interpretation action but that's a vail and humane system of justice which I condone I think the worst thing you can do to a criminal is isolate them from the society. The interaction of working for the community you have wronged can have a positive impact it teaches accountability and can instill a sense of pride that can definitely make the transition much easier.


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## Pheonix

Rancho said:


> Wow ok... So in nazi Germany where there was society advocating discrimination it was okay because. It was "in the context of the time" ? if you see human life as a thing of value only in historical context, I feel sorry for you because thats warped. Wrong is wrong. don't color me in shades to try and make your point seem valid ethically that is absurd. And forgive me but i fail to see any logic in your thought process. Read some books.



no I'm not implying that it is ok I'm implying that they were unaware that it was wrong (not just them but the society at the time) because of that I won't persecute them as criminals like you did.


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## Rancho

pheonix said:


> no I'm not implying that it is ok I'm implying that they were unaware that it was wrong (not just them but the society at the time) because of that I won't persecute them as criminals like you did.


Obviously I wasn't there so I didnt persecute shit you're the one who seems to think having history repeat itself is a good thing


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## Pheonix

yes it's easier to fix a slightly flawed system then to keep our severely flawed system until we create that one perfect system. all I heard from you is bitching about other people's ideas. what kind of system do you think we should change to? I don't understand why you think if we go back to confederacy it will end up the same as it did before. history always repeats itself and the anarchist community should be happy about that. all throughout history a revolution is needed to change a failing system and I can't wait for history to repeat itself.


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## Rancho

pheonix said:


> yes it's easier to fix a slightly flawed system then to keep our severely flawed system until we create that one perfect system. all I heard from you is bitching about other people's ideas. what kind of system do you think we should change to? I don't understand why you think if we go back to confederacy it will end up the same as it did before. history always repeats itself and the anarchist community should be happy about that. all throughout history a revolution is needed to change a failing system and I can't wait for history to repeat itself.




Agaian I fail to see your logic here you just kind of go into some kind revolution rant. History repeating itself is a set up for more failure. What I think should happen is kind of a complicated plan that combines aspects of several different government systems. But it would never gain popular support because people don't like change that much and getting people to think communally amongst the general population. O well I can't force a revolution one will happen with or without me. The best I can do is offer the most EDUCATED input I can.


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## Pheonix

if you gonna bash my opinions but not express yours own cause they won't gain popular support, then why am I even talking to you. I know confederacy won't gain popular support either (unless the UN takes over) but that will never stop me from speaking my mind and stating my opinion even thou I get marked as a slave sympathizer every time I mention I'm a confederate. If you won't tell us your opinions then I'm done talking to you.


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## Rancho

pheonix said:


> if you gonna bash my opinions but not express yours own cause they won't gain popular support, then why am I even talking to you. I know confederacy won't gain popular support either (unless the UN takes over) but that will never stop me from speaking my mind and stating my opinion even thou I get marked as a slave sympathizer every time I mention I'm a confederate. If you won't tell us your opinions then I'm done talking to you.


Sure if you think you could keep up...


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## Rancho

I note a lot of my domestic policy ideas to the modern state of Israel markedly in education and economic policy, with an emphasis on co op and communal living. I think a centralized government is necessary for interstate projects like a massive transit system that is affordable and widely available is essential. A decrease in privatization of military and national security while increased spending in building up infrastructure and education. a decrease in dependency on forgein oil and more international outreach programs. I think the united states particularly would benefit in catching up with other industrilized nations and stop seeing the people of this nation as a burden and start treating them as the viable future assets they are.


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## Pheonix

Rancho said:


> I think a centralized government is necessary for interstate projects like a massive transit system that is affordable and widely available is essential.


yes a central government is essential and there are 2 kinds of central government a federation and a confederation with the main difference being that a federation has way to much power over everything and a confederation only has power over interstate projects like you stated and the military since the purpose of the military is to defend all the states.
it's unfortunate that the military that was design with honor to only defend the states from outside threats, has shamelessly lost all honor as they protect the special interest groups. we need to bring back honor to the military and stop fighting for foreign interest and start fighting for our interest. feel free to bitch about my violence but I think the military needs to pull out of middle east and invade Mexico since the biggest terrorist threat to the US right now is the drug cartels. with that said our military needs to come down on them like they did to the Columbian. but this just makes room for a new drug cartel like how the Mexician took over after the columbian were gone.
fixing the economy is easier then everyone thinks, simply end prohibition. the war on drugs is just bleeding money and there is no possible way to to end drugs. the economy is based on supply and demand and will get a HUGE stimulus if drugs could be legally bought. once this is done the drugs will get alot safer pretty quick when the pharmaceutical businesses start researching these drugs. as a confederate I think the states can decide if they want to end prohibition in their states or not and can put regulations in it so that all drugs sold in that state are manufactured in that state as well providing much needed jobs.
another requirement for fixing the economy is to end the federal reserve or at least take it back from the private organization that run it and make it a government agency with an elected official, the states should be allowed to print their own money as well. putting an end to the banking system is another much needed solution that I'm hoping will come from the Occupy movement.
I also propose several presidents since the ones that are good with the economy suck with military strategy and vice versa. I think a president for the economy will be the leader of the new federal reserve and the treasury. we need a president to control the military and his only responsibility should be the military and we should elect a military man or woman for this job for their the only ones that can respectfully run a military, my vote would be for General Petraeus for he can bring honor back to the military. and some other for roads and the environment and such.


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## Pheonix

Rancho said:


> I think the united states particularly would benefit in catching up with other industrilized nations and stop seeing the people of this nation as a burden and start treating them as the viable future assets they are.


 I couldn't agree more the deindustrialization of America fuck us all.


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## ipoPua

pheonix said:


> if you gonna bash my opinions but not express yours own...



i dunno what -youre- reading but thats not what i saw at all. and honestly i dont have answers to all the specifics cos i dont really have any interest in them i just want the earth to be respected, and as long as in the end the concrete crumbles and the trees come back i just don't care. and i know they will. so balls


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## Rancho

pheonix said:


> yes a central government is essential and there are 2 kinds of central government a federation and a confederation with the main difference being that a federation has way to much power over everything and a confederation only has power over interstate projects like you stated and the military since the purpose of the military is to defend all the states.
> it's unfortunate that the military that was design with honor to only defend the states from outside threats, has shamelessly lost all honor as they protect the special interest groups. we need to bring back honor to the military and stop fighting for foreign interest and start fighting for our interest. feel free to bitch about my violence but I think the military needs to pull out of middle east and invade Mexico since the biggest terrorist threat to the US right now is the drug cartels. with that said our military needs to come down on them like they did to the Columbian. but this just makes room for a new drug cartel like how the Mexician took over after the columbian were gone.
> fixing the economy is easier then everyone thinks, simply end prohibition. the war on drugs is just bleeding money and there is no possible way to to end drugs. the economy is based on supply and demand and will get a HUGE stimulus if drugs could be legally bought. once this is done the drugs will get alot safer pretty quick when the pharmaceutical businesses start researching these drugs. as a confederate I think the states can decide if they want to end prohibition in their states or not and can put regulations in it so that all drugs sold in that state are manufactured in that state as well providing much needed jobs.
> another requirement for fixing the economy is to end the federal reserve or at least take it back from the private organization that run it and make it a government agency with an elected official, the states should be allowed to print their own money as well. putting an end to the banking system is another much needed solution that I'm hoping will come from the Occupy movement.
> I also propose several presidents since the ones that are good with the economy suck with military strategy and vice versa. I think a president for the economy will be the leader of the new federal reserve and the treasury. we need a president to control the military and his only responsibility should be the military and we should elect a military man or woman for this job for their the only ones that can respectfully run a military, my vote would be for General Petraeus for he can bring honor back to the military. and some other for roads and the environment and such.





pheonix said:


> yes a central government is essential and there are 2 kinds of central government a federation and a confederation with the main difference being that a federation has way to much power over everything and a confederation only has power over interstate projects like you stated and the military since the purpose of the military is to defend all the states.
> it's unfortunate that the military that was design with honor to only defend the states from outside threats, has shamelessly lost all honor as they protect the special interest groups. we need to bring back honor to the military and stop fighting for foreign interest and start fighting for our interest. feel free to bitch about my violence but I think the military needs to pull out of middle east and invade Mexico since the biggest terrorist threat to the US right now is the drug cartels. with that said our military needs to come down on them like they did to the Columbian. but this just makes room for a new drug cartel like how the Mexician took over after the columbian were gone.
> fixing the economy is easier then everyone thinks, simply end prohibition. the war on drugs is just bleeding money and there is no possible way to to end drugs. the economy is based on supply and demand and will get a HUGE stimulus if drugs could be legally bought. once this is done the drugs will get alot safer pretty quick when the pharmaceutical businesses start researching these drugs. as a confederate I think the states can decide if they want to end prohibition in their states or not and can put regulations in it so that all drugs sold in that state are manufactured in that state as well providing much needed jobs.
> another requirement for fixing the economy is to end the federal reserve or at least take it back from the private organization that run it and make it a government agency with an elected official, the states should be allowed to print their own money as well. putting an end to the banking system is another much needed solution that I'm hoping will come from the Occupy movement.
> I also propose several presidents since the ones that are good with the economy suck with military strategy and vice versa. I think a president for the economy will be the leader of the new federal reserve and the treasury. we need a president to control the military and his only responsibility should be the military and we should elect a military man or woman for this job for their the only ones that can respectfully run a military, my vote would be for General Petraeus for he can bring honor back to the military. and some other for roads and the environment and such.


See and I revert back to FDRs new deal where there were many government instituted programs available to civilians. I like a strong government that actually favors the people but that's just me. We do have heads it's not just the president you know like the secretary of state and the secretary of defense the president isn't the sole authority in these institutions. 
I tend to shy away from the prohibition arguement because I believe it's more of a youth rebellion movement. Don't get me wrong the drug war in Mexico is probably one of the biggest crisises of our new millennium but I have my reservations about just allowing massive amounts of drugs being available on the market ( think of England's opium war).
I don't think this country's problem is a lack of monetary resources but rather how we choose to utilize them


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## ipoPua

dont forget how we GET those resources. fracking, mountain top removal, deforestation, i dunno just everything we do is so fucked


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## Rancho

ipoPua said:


> dont forget how we GET those resources. fracking, mountain top removal, deforestation, i dunno just everything we do is so fucked


Exactly conservationist is not a priority in this country and that is really worries we need some major lifestyle changes pronto


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## wizehop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6TYegabREQ this is the 99% pwahahahahahahahahahahah FUCKING LOSERS!

Lets get this straight..Im not part of this 99% and either is 99% of the world..all this fucking Occupy shit is done by 0.0000000000000001% of the population....that what you kids dont get..you aint the fucking majority get over yourself.

WOW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjO8gOfUP1w&feature=related

was fun while it lasted..I cant wait until the next protest hits and changes the world Again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWAqDlQ1CEI&feature=related


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## ipoPua

wizehop said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6TYegabREQ this is the 99% pwahahahahahahahahahahah FUCKING LOSERS!
> 
> Lets get this straight..Im not part of this 99% and either is 99% of the world..all this fucking Occupy shit is done by 0.0000000000000001% of the population....that what you kids dont get..you aint the fucking majority get over yourself.



actually sugar, what -you- don't get(because its a fucking retarded slogan thats had entirely too much focus) is that what that means is that we -are- 99% -ofthiscountry- and if we're gonna call this shit a democracy we should be listening to everyone, not just this tiny sector of people. unfortunately hardly anyone fucking gets that because, like i said, it's a retarded slogan. they latched onto it cos its catchy but the real meanings been completely lost in a storm of misinformation. penis.


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

wizehop said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6TYegabREQ this is the 99% pwahahahahahahahahahahah FUCKING LOSERS!


I was waiting for him to say Take aff eh.


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## fateoficarus

I think that although capitalism has faced several crises, this crises is it's last crises. Capitalism constantly needs to expand in order to keep the element of competitiveness of labour, but capitalism has expanded to almost every part of the world. There's no developed nation left to turn into an industrialized capitalist nation. Neo-liberalism and globalization have seen to that. We're also facing the reality of many of our primary sources of energy simply depleting. So when it crashes, it's gonna crash hard, and how hard that crash is will be a function of how much we do before we run out of fossil fuel, restructure our economic dealings, etc. The way government's are currently moving is to erode civil liberties and become more and more fascist, and are clearly resisting any movement towards real change. So what happens when neo-liberalism completely blows up? Hell I don't know. No one knows. What I hope is that we adopt a system of exchange based on stability and support, one that puts the long term interests of humans at its core. Whether or not that's a barter economy or one where we still trade goods for money isn't too important to me. They're both economies in their own right, so it's how the economy functions that matters, not what you trade with. I think politics and self determination should and will return to a more local level, which is good. I want a society which has as much liberty as possible, and without the threat of the tyranny of the majority. As much as I might believe my own politics, when all the arguments are said and done you'll still believe what you believe and I'll still believe what I believe. Which is cool, as long as neither of us determines how the other person can or cannot live. We can argue about it until we're blue in the face, which is a good thing. Constantly critiquing yourself and others is how we grow intellectually.


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## wizehop

Look kids, lets get this straight..I'm not against anything your saying in regards to opinions on how things should be. As far as I'm concerned all opinions are equal..what I'm disagreeing with is how this movement thinks its going to bring about change. The general public does not care enough to ever do anything about anything, and no amount of protesting will fix that. If you wait for the general public to get it your wasting your time. The "Elites" who run Capitalism are the same people who ran Communism, Feudalism and everything before. The people who make shit happen design systems to benifit them...not based on whats right for humanity.
The whole concept behind capitalism which they saw with the FAILURE of Communism was that people are willing to work harder if they think their doing it for themselves as apposed to a community. Of course some take advantage of people stupidity and push the limits. Either way this system will adapt and change, it wont fail, there will be no crash.. unfortunately...and as usual the greedy people who are willing to kill, lie, and steel will be the ones deciding how things go, not the people who sing kumbai in the park square.


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## Pheonix

wizehop said:


> Look kids, lets get this straight..I'm not against anything your saying in regards to opinions on how things should be. As far as I'm concerned all opinions are equal..what I'm disagreeing with is how this movement thinks its going to bring about change. The general public does not care enough to ever do anything about anything, and no amount of protesting will fix that. If you wait for the general public to get it your wasting your time. The "Elites" who run Capitalism are the same people who ran Communism, Feudalism and everything before. The people who make shit happen design systems to benifit them...not based on whats right for humanity.
> The whole concept behind capitalism which they saw with the FAILURE of Communism was that people are willing to work harder if they think their doing it for themselves as apposed to a community. Of course some take advantage of people stupidity and push the limits. Either way this system will adapt and change, it wont fail, there will be no crash.. unfortunately...and as usual the greedy people who are willing to kill, lie, and steel will be the ones deciding how things go, not the people who sing kumbai in the park square.



couldn't agree more the change will be made by the same elite that have influenced all change though out history. the only true way to influence the coming change is to join the ranks of their elite. but that is not an endorsement to vote republican.


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## fateoficarus

I agree that popular movements like the occupy movement aren't really in and of themselves going to do much of anything. It doesn't help that they're only reformist in nature, calling for greater regulation of financial institutions and lobbying policies. That's not going to stop the problems which capitalism necessitates. Furthermore, asking those in power to kindly relinquish it doesn't normally work. Asking corporations to stop making extortionate choices in the name of profit is fucking misguided about what the function of a corporation is. Maybe I'm just a pessimist, but a claim like "Either way this system will adapt and change, it wont fail, there will be no crash" is putting way to much faith in the system to continually keep the ball rolling when we live in a time where there's genuine scarcity of resources. Maybe I buy too much into the Derick Jensen Endgame rhetoric of we're in the last stage where we can do a damn about destroying the planet, but when scientists like Stephen Hawking think that the colonization of space is necessary for the survival of the human species within the next 1OO years, I don't hold out much hope. I don't think we're all going to die in some apocalypse scenario, but I don't think the world will be able to sustain the amount of people that currently inhabit it


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## Pheonix

I'm pro space colony, I wonder if it will be like Futurama. I honestly think the government will secretly create a revolt just so they can come in like gang-busters, their already making preparations to lock this country down. I think the revolution will be played like a game of Risk at the local mason temple, we're all expendable even their own soldiers.


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

pheonix said:


> I'm pro space colony, I wonder if it will be like Futurama. I honestly think the government will secretly create a revolt just so they can come in like gang-busters, their already making preparations to lock this country down. I think the revolution will be played like a game of Risk at the local mason temple, we're all expendable even their own soldiers.


ANARCHISTS

IN

SPACE!


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## starfish prim

cloudsreflectthesun said:


> .. be less of a hypocrite that you are at the moment.



dont force the community to spend money on removals that could be spent on youth projects eg for its a loose/loose game.


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## wizehop

fateoficarus said:


> I think that although capitalism has faced several crises, this crises is it's last crises. Capitalism constantly needs to expand in order to keep the element of competitiveness of labour, but capitalism has expanded to almost every part of the world. There's no developed nation left to turn into an industrialized capitalist nation. Neo-liberalism and globalization have seen to that. We're also facing the reality of many of our primary sources of energy simply depleting. So when it crashes, it's gonna crash hard, and how hard that crash is will be a function of how much we do before we run out of fossil fuel, restructure our economic dealings, etc. The way government's are currently moving is to erode civil liberties and become more and more fascist, and are clearly resisting any movement towards real change. So what happens when neo-liberalism completely blows up? Hell I don't know. No one knows. What I hope is that we adopt a system of exchange based on stability and support, one that puts the long term interests of humans at its core. Whether or not that's a barter economy or one where we still trade goods for money isn't too important to me. They're both economies in their own right, so it's how the economy functions that matters, not what you trade with. I think politics and self determination should and will return to a more local level, which is good. I want a society which has as much liberty as possible, and without the threat of the tyranny of the majority. As much as I might believe my own politics, when all the arguments are said and done you'll still believe what you believe and I'll still believe what I believe. Which is cool, as long as neither of us determines how the other person can or cannot live. We can argue about it until we're blue in the face, which is a good thing. Constantly critiquing yourself and others is how we grow intellectually.



If you have time check out this National Geographic show on Easter Island..I think it relates to what your sayin

http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/player/

Fuck it wont link straight to vid., the show is called: Easter Island Underworld

Click the link I posted, then on the left selection bar click "Nat Geo TV", then "Full Episodes", then "Explorer", then on the fourth page you will find "Easter Island Underworld" Second from the right in bottom row 44:02 run time

perfect example of how we over use our resources, not so much due to "Capitalism" but human nature.


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## bicycle

starfish prim said:


> dont force the community to spend money on removals that could be spent on youth projects eg for its a loose/loose game.



what do you mean by removals?


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## Rancho

That's it I'm moving


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## trash diver

Every culture has a beginning and an end. Over consumption of natural resources and an ever expanding population lead to civil unrest and warfare. Maybe we are just living in the decline of our civilization. 1000 years from now,our ancestors may have forgotten everything about us. And the cycle will begin again.


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## wehavethemap

stop fighting? start uniting? come onlike online street fambly
you hosers.


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

wehavethemap said:


> you hosers.


Take aff. Its a beauty way ta go, eh?
And yeah, fuck uniting. Get a gun, its the only way you're gonna get rid of these plutocrats.


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## wehavethemap

yeaah i want one, but i want a sick crew with me too


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

wehavethemap said:


> yeaah i want one, but i want a sick crew with me too


Yeah, you can't be a lone wolf in this shit. You'd die right away


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## wehavethemap

not if your names john rambo


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

wehavethemap said:


> not if your names john rambo


Heh, even he had support. He had somebody take him there and home.


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## wehavethemap

i want to get a crew of john rambos


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

wehavethemap said:


> i want to get a crew of john rambos


I wanna get a crew of Lees. Bruce Lee, Brandon Lee and clones


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## wizehop

I want a 26'er of Johnny walker Red


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## starfish prim

cloudsreflectthesun said:


> what do you mean by removals?


 
a removal is something that has turned out to be a bad spot because it files a fine.
you may judge yourself whether that is cool or uncool or anarchic.


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## starfish prim

trash diver said:


> Every culture has a beginning and an end. Over consumption of natural resources and an ever expanding population lead to civil unrest and warfare. Maybe we are just living in the decline of our civilization. 1000 years from now,our ancestors may have forgotten everything about us. And the cycle will begin again.


 
a teacher of mine once said, if you equalized the lifetime of the earth wth the span of your horizontally extended arms,
human history within it would be equivalent to what one single movement with a nail file takes off from the middle finger nail. we might just be dinosaurs, thinking we re ruling da world.


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## trash diver

starfish prim said:


> a teacher of mine once said, if you'd equalize the lifetime of the earth wth the span of your horizontally extended arms,
> human history within it was equivalent to what one single movement with a finger nail takes off from the middle finger nail. we might just be dinsosaurs, thinking we re ruling da world.


I agree, Homo Sapiens are amazing creatures, but tragically short sighted.


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## Rancho

I really hope that society does go through a period of anarchy I think it'd be interesting to see what comes out the other end. Especially in the industrialized world.


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

I would just like to say to each one of you guys, especially the ones I agree with, HOLY FUCK. This is the 131st post, 130th reply  I guess I had a good idea for a topic?


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## starfish prim

Rancho said:


> I really hope that society does go through a period of anarchy. I think it'd be interesting to see what comes out the other end. Especially in the industrialized world.


 
what do you mean by anarchy? people already fail in democracy.


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## starfish prim

TheUndeadPhoenix said:


> (...) I personally think people should do what they like to do, something they would do for free today. That's why I am going to college to be a chef. I love to cook and I would do it for free, so long as I don't have to provide the materials or I already have them in my possession.


 
you would depend on other people working for free too, to make your living.

i agree in questioning the capitalistic concept of work in which working is defined only by producing added value and and increasing the national product. that concept needs to be drastically expanded.




TheUndeadPhoenix said:


> .. You should always have something to protect yourself, because you never know when somebody has a mental break.


 
i would prefer that somebody to not wear a weapon then. and i am lucky for nobody having made me feel threatened back in the days when I had worn one. and i suggest, anarchy in its origins also means that theres no need for weapons.


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## urbanflow

the only system that can every actually work is one of mutual appreciation for your fellow man. humans are hardwired to feel each others pain and joy. a natural reaction to seeing someone get seriously hurt is a very common "OHHHHHH" where the face scrunches up and you almost look a way but, later decide not to so the full outcome is witnessed. 

our brain is literally wired (for lack of a better term) to be more inclined to share, love and cooperate than hate and fight each other. if you havent seen the documentary "I AM" by tom shadyac, you should check it out because that shit really makes you think.

now as far as the thread goes, after this system fails we will more than likely be SOL when it comes to resources. if we end it before we use up all the resources and pollute our air and water to the point its unlivable, who fucking cares what happens afterwards? we're talking apocolypse here man, not "whats next?".

if we stop it before we destroy the planet and the relationship we share with it that allows us to exist, who knows? perhaps we have some asshole take charge and go back to a new, though eerily similar, way of life. or we can have a great awakening among people and realize our true values and wants and needs as paramount instead of trivial things like money and power. 

honestly though, if theres one thing buddhism taught me its that you never know and you never can know so whats the point in trying to know? roll with the punches and let things unfold as they will.

i sort of agree with wize, i love the system that allows us nomadic bums to live off the excess through squats, dumpster diving, busking/spanging. granted many of us dont give back a damn thing in a societal sense, we give back something much larger to those who know our story.

we are the few that live freely and by our own accord. no one else, not laws, politicians, authority figures, money, corporations or anyone else tell us how to live. we decide our own fate and play by our own rules regardless of what the world tells us. if some NWO shit happens im STILL going to be all about living on the road. it will be a much more "duck and dodge" kind of lifestyle than it is already but, id rather live on my own than watch helplessly as my fellow man's rights get trampled on. they can take my things, they can take my health, they can take my body but, they cannot take my freedom. only i can allow another to take my freedom. death is simply a release, unless you volunteer it and put it up for grabs it is yours and yours alone, regardless of what happens to your physical form.


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