# Dressing "Slutty" Will Not Get You Raped



## AlwaysLost

I am here today to rant and dispel this stupid movement going around called clothing does not equal consent. Its just some bullshit for women to rationalize dressing however they want without consequences (the non rapey kind). Grow up and take responsibility for your choices. People are going to judge you by your appearance. THIS is a something everyone (male or female) on this site has experienced.

Okay now that I have come across as a total misogynist, now let me dial it down a notch and make my argument. And my disclaimer. No woman should ever be forced to do anything they don't want to ever, period. 

Now my rational. You do not get raped (man or girl) based on how you are dressed. You get raped because 1) you have made poor choices or 2) through no fault of your own, you have now come across the path of a rapist. Either way, this is not your fault. Just as its not the fault of a murder victim getting shot or the guy who leaves his car unlocked and has it hijacked. You are an innocent victim.

Being a rapist is the same as being a serial killer. You either are one or you are not. I have had a lot of female friends over the years. I have always just jibed better with females than men. Whether through drunkenness or skinny dipping etc I have seen several of my girl friends (not girlfriends) in various states of undress. I have never felt the need to rape any of them. We'd go clubbing and they would dress "slutty" I would drive them to and fro. Not once did I rape them because they were dressed to party. Even when they were naked, I was probably like 'holy crap shes hot'. But I have never felt "rapey" not even once in my life.

Even when a man gets his most desperate he will not rape a girl. He will go to the seediest strip club in town or hit craigslist for a "date" thats just reality. 

A rapist however rapes...sometimes alcohol helps sometimes not. Date rape is still rape. But the guy (or girl) that raped you did so because he has the rape gene. Alcohol or drugs may have unleashed it in him just as some people would never kill anyone while sober but add a little bit of meth added to equation and bamn murder-gene unlocked.

If I see a girl with slut written across her short shorts or a rich girl in a see-through $1000 dress you better believe im gonna imagine doing all kinds of nasty stuff to her and she will probably be in my mind when I fap later that day. 

But even if (never happen) that girl was naked in front of me. I aint touching her unless she says yes and is not intoxicated. The first time I do it with a girl we both have to be sober (unless we'd already made the decision to do it before drinking)...I've fooled around while drunk but I refuse to commit a sexual act while intoxicated because that is what gentlemen do. 

And it has saved me from a lot of drama through the years. I have even had girls thank me later. Not that they had to. I valued their friendship too much and once you have sex with a girl, there is no going back to the friendzone. I know Karen wouldn't have been mad had we did it. But we probably wouldn't be still friends and I need that girl in my life. 

However if you dress like a "slut" you don't get special privileges by creating a bs movement any more than I wont get my ass kicked if I dress like an idiot downtown. Or get arrested looking bummy in a rich neighborhood. 

People treat you how they perceive you. That is reality. It doesn't make it right. But its true. Even homeless people treat you differently when you dress like a rich man. .

I was dressed to the nines this morning. I saw my home-bum buddy sitting at the bus stop. He thought I was a yuppy until he recognized me as a "redneck" as he called me. We had a good laugh when I explained why I dress the way he does (urban camo). I gave him and his buddy 5$ for a beer (this guy helped me when I had nothing). He treated me normally but his buddy treated me like some sort of benevolent business man (way too polite). I didnt have time to explain to him that IM only one paycheck away from hanging out with them lol...but my buddy did I am sure. 

But my point of this rant is Ladies, Dress however you want. I know there's plenty of times that its totally cool to dress to party (and believe me I appreciate it). But make smart choices (follow basic self-defense and self-awareness) so hopefully Godwilling you never cross the path of a rapist. Sometimes theres nothing you can do. But be as safe as you possibly can! I wish we lived in a world where rape didn't exist but that's just not how it is. 

Okay lets open this up for safe, respectful discussion. Everyone be gentleman.


----------



## Coywolf

I cant wait for the over-reacted replies to this thread....its gonna be GOLD!

But personally, im not going to touch this discussion.


----------



## Matt Derrick

Oh boy, where to begin...

First, moving this thread to sex and sexuality section. Please, please, please, everyone stop using the general banter section for stuff that could easily go somewhere else on the board. If it doesn't belong in the section you put it, a mod will come along and move it for you at no consequence to yourself.

To the subject at hand, I understand what you're trying to say, but the main problem with your argument is that you're still putting the blame on the rape victims themselves. While this is technically against our forum rules, I'm going to let it slide since I'm hoping the discussion coming out of it will be more productive than laying down a warning (and that seems to be the OP's intention as well).

Telling women/men/anyone that they got raped because 'you made poor choices' really invalidates most of your argument from the start. This statement shifts the blame from the perpetrator to the victim (obviously) while missing the point entirely that _no one should ever be raped, ever. _No matter the place, the people, situation, or decisions made, there's no legitimate excuse to commit rape against anyone. Ever.

In an ideal world, anyone should be able to run down a dark alley (or park, or whatever) naked and not have to worry about getting raped. Now your counter argument is obviously going to be that we _don't_ live in an ideal world, and you would be correct in that assumption. That still doesn't change the fact that people should be able to make whatever decisions they desire (whether it's a good decision or not) and live without fear of being raped or being blamed for their own rape by people telling them 'well, looks like you made a poor decision'.



AlwaysLost said:


> I am here today to rant and dispel this stupid movement going around called clothing does not equal consent. Its just some bullshit for women to rationalize dressing however they want without consequences (the non rapey kind). Grow up and take responsibility for your choices.



I'm sorry but this statement alone is extremely offensive and ridiculously ignorant.

Despite your opinion of that person's actions, victim blaming is NEVER okay and there is NO situation in which the victim of rape should be blamed for someone else's actions, ever. _Clothing does not equal consent_ as a statement is completely true and I support the 'rationalization' (as you put it) that women (or anyone else) should be able to dress however they want without consequences. Anything else firmly places the blame back on rape victims. So I would take some time to think about your previous statement and how it could be interpreted in an extremely negative way by rape survivors.


----------



## Zaphod

wow, a man posts some victim blaming bullshit while simultaneously claiming it's not victim-blaming. You can fuck right off


----------



## rooster831

edit: nev mind fuck this stupid thread PEACE


----------



## Zaphod

Yeah, which has nothing to do with how they dress and everything to do with how men are trash. Nudity (or revealing clothing etc) is not inherently sexual. The problem is not how women dress. The problem is men treating women like objects. The problem is rape culture. The problem is patriarchy.


----------



## Koala

AlwaysLost said:


> But the guy (or girl) that raped you did so because he has the rape gene. Alcohol or drugs may have unleashed it in him just as some people would never kill anyone while sober but add a little bit of meth added to equation and bamn murder-gene unlocked.



Yeah rape and sexual crimes have been genetically linked shown in some studies on extended families, but the way you described it is not scientifically accurate at all.



AlwaysLost said:


> But my point of this rant is Ladies, Dress however you want. I know there's plenty of times that its totally cool to dress to party (and believe me I appreciate it). But make smart choices (follow basic self-defense and self-awareness) so hopefully Godwilling you never cross the path of a rapist. Sometimes theres nothing you can do. But be as safe as you possibly can! I wish we lived in a world where rape didn't exist but that's just not how it is.



We're going to dress and act however we want and don't need your "point" of advice to do so.



AlwaysLost said:


> Okay lets open this up for safe, respectful discussion. Everyone be gentleman.



oh wait, "be gentleman"? was this even open to discussion from women? or was this just a space for men to talk about women's issues? as if there aren't enough of those


----------



## Zaphod

Koala said:


> oh wait, "be gentleman"? was this even open to discussion from women? or was this just a space for men to talk about women's issues? as if there aren't enough of those



Wow, I missed that one. ROASTED


----------



## Notmyname

Zaphod said:


> Yeah, which has nothing to do with how they dress and everything to do with how men are trash. Nudity (or revealing clothing etc) is not inherently sexual. The problem is not how women dress. The problem is men treating women like objects. The problem is rape culture. The problem is patriarchy.


Yeah cause a woman can't rape anyone. It seems that lately women have to be scared of date rape and men should fear their female teachers. So fuck off with that men are trash patriarchy bullshit.


----------



## Notmyname

Rape is not a women's issue. It's a human issue. This is why so many people don't like modern feminism.

Granted the op is specifically talking about women being raped. But yeah I'm with rooster. I'm gonna fuck off. This is not a conversation I wanna try to have online.


----------



## Zaphod

"Men get raped too" is a perfectly valid discussion as long as it's not derailing another discussion; feel free to start your own thread.

Oh wait, you just wanted to invalidate the experiences of women? How original, we've never heard that before ::banghead::

Sexual assault is a problem that disproportionately effects women though, and that's a direct result of patriarchy. As is slut-shaming victim blaming bullshit like OP 

Luckily motherfuckers like you are becoming a relic


----------



## Notmyname

Zaphod said:


> "Men get raped too" is a perfectly valid discussion as long as it's not derailing another discussion; feel free to start your own thread.
> 
> Oh wait, you just wanted to invalidate the experiences of women? How original, we've never heard that before ::banghead::
> 
> Sexual assault is a problem that disproportionately effects women though, and that's a direct result of patriarchy. As is slut-shaming victim blaming bullshit like OP
> 
> Luckily motherfuckers like you are becoming a relic


Your armor is so shiny I can't read this shit anymore. And inequality has been around for millennia longer than this idea of "everyone is equal and deserves fair treatment" I'm not saying I support inequality, just saying that if you think change happens so fast you're extremely naive.


----------



## autumn

Notmyname said:


> Your armor is so shiny I can't read this shit anymore. And inequality has been around for millennia longer than this idea of "everyone is equal and deserves fair treatment" I'm not saying I support inequality, just saying that if you think change happens so fast you're extremely naive.



That's really fucking funny coming from a rapist.

It should be known that this person sexually assaulted a woman who was asleep. In my presence.

https://squattheplanet.com/threads/notmyname-aka-dj.33326/


----------



## Zaphod

Wow, I'm sorry marginalized people demanding equity upsets you so much; why don't you go ahead and kick rocks and take your toxic male baggage with you.

Hmu when you're ready to do better


----------



## Zaphod

zim said:


> That's really fucking funny coming from a rapist.
> 
> It should be known that this person sexually assaulted a woman who was asleep. In my presence.




Oh, well in that case, best stay away from Cincy. Might not be very safe for you


----------



## Notmyname

zim said:


> That's really fucking funny coming from a rapist.
> 
> It should be known that this person sexually assaulted a woman who was asleep. In my presence.


It's also funny that I met her on tinder with explicit conversations of sex. And that If anything actually happened, you Andy and that homebum Jason shoulda beat my ass and threw me outta the house. But I woke up and y'all were gone. I was blacked out so I don't remember exactly what happened and only heard from Jason why you left so early. And that chick said it was bullshit too. She even told me she was pissed that I got so drunk and then brought you guys over


----------



## Zaphod

The lack of reaction on their part doesn't justify your sexual assault. The previous discussions about sex do not make it okay to assault someone who's passed out and therefore can't consent


----------



## Coywolf

zim said:


> That's really fucking funny coming from a rapist.
> 
> It should be known that this person sexually assaulted a woman who was asleep. In my presence.





Zaphod said:


> Oh, well in that case, best stay away from Cincy. Might not be very safe for you





Notmyname said:


> It's also funny that I met her on tinder with explicit conversations of sex. And that If anything actually happened, you Andy and that homebum Jason shoulda beat my ass and threw me outta the house. But I woke up and y'all were gone. I was blacked out so I don't remember exactly what happened and only heard from Jason why you left so early. And that chick said it was bullshit too. She even told me she was pissed that I got so drunk and then brought you guys over



This thread has turned into a fucking soap opera.

Cant say i didnt see that coming.

Rape/sexual assault is bad, M'kay? Its funny how people nitppick about the fine print....there shouldnt be any.

Also, @zim do you really think this was an appropriate thread to drop that bomb about @Notmyname ?

It seems like corroberation and personal testimony should be heard about thatt, let alone have a different thread about it, otherwise that seems quite slanderous to me, just my 2 cents.


----------



## autumn

Coywolf said:


> Also, @zim do you really think this was an appropriate thread to drop that bomb about @Notmyname ?
> 
> It seems like corroberation and personal testimony should be heard about thatt, let alone have a different thread about it, otherwise that seems quite slanderous to me, just my 2 cents.



Yeah, you're right about that. I had put off making the post about it for a few different reasons that I won't get into here.. but when I saw him posting that stuff it made me furious. There's an untrustworthy thread now.



Zaphod said:


> The lack of reaction on their part doesn't justify your sexual assault. The previous discussions about sex do not make it okay to assault someone who's passed out and therefore can't consent



Completely aside from the fact that nobody should think there's any ambiguity with someone that's passed out.. a lack of understanding what constitutes consent is a pretty huge problem I see even in the leftist crowd here and on r/anarchism, and in real life. It's not surprising, then, that the general population is completely fucking clueless. Sad as it is. People need to be better educated about consent.


----------



## Matt Derrick

the fact that @Notmyname chose to comment on this thread isn't without a little bit of hypocrisy so i think the calling out is relevant.

that said, this isn't a discussion thread about that topic, so please keep responses relevant to the OP.


----------



## rooster831

wow this thread is so fuckin stupid and unnecessary that everyone that has viewed it so far should be labeled as a bleeding heart ass little faggot liberal cocksucker and go die from a massive heroin overdose before they spread their seed to make more little shithead bleeding heard faggot dipshit special snowflake assholes


----------



## Zaphod

Wow, so Rooster is full on fash then huh? Guess that makes sense;

Don't worry, your ilk are the ones who're on the way out; we'll see to that

Next you're gonna be caping for that rapist I suppose


----------



## deleted user

None of this makes sense.... this back and forth shaming and rants... Some men have problems. So do equal number of women. How you look and behave Effects how predators act in nature. Just a fact. Whether it's the "slutty dressed" girl at the bar about to be assulted Or the "clean cut guy" in the wrong ghetto about to get jumped. Or the "crusty person" beat by cops. We can all be victimised. Make choices too limit what bad can happen to you and be ready when the unexpected does happen. Im gonna catch hell for this im sure. Life is rough the only truth we can all agree on.


----------



## Coywolf

Zaphod said:


> Wow, so Rooster is full on fash then huh? Guess that makes sense;
> 
> Don't worry, your ilk are the ones who're on the way out; we'll see to that
> 
> Next you're gonna be caping for that rapist I suppose



Dude, i get where you are coming from on some of your posts, but you need to slow your roll with the acusations and bullshit "higher than thou" crap.

Its really getting to me. Either contribute positively to the conversation or stay out of it.

Doesnt matter if you are a fascist or a bleeding heart liberal, that kind of attitude will not get you far in this community.

Like, ALL of your posts have a condecending tone in some manner or another


----------



## QueerCoyote

I believe OP is 100% against rape. I think he said some stupid contradictory things to his message, so I'm just going to address those. I've noticed through my own experiences that education on what is sexual assault and what counts as consent is sadly lacking. As people become more verbal in today's time about sexual assault, often they say contradictory things while trying to support a positive message.



AlwaysLost said:


> I am here today to rant and dispel this stupid movement going around called clothing does not equal consent. Its just some bullshit for women to rationalize dressing however they want without consequences (the non rapey kind).



"Clothing does not equal consent" is exactly as it sounds, and is also what you're trying to say here. By what you've said in most of your post, you are part of this movement.

What I think you're thinking of is the anti-slut-shaming movement, where women ask that they not be shamed for dressing scandalously or having abundant sex.



AlwaysLost said:


> Now my rational. You do not get raped (man or girl) based on how you are dressed. You get raped because 1) you have made poor choices or 2) through no fault of your own, you have now come across the path of a rapist. Either way, this is not your fault. Just as its not the fault of a murder victim getting shot or the guy who leaves his car unlocked and has it hijacked. You are an innocent victim.



By "made poor choices" do you mean decisions such as walking alone at bad hours in bad neighborhoods and exposing yourself to potentially dangerous people?

Rape is never the victim's fault, which you've said, so this statement is contradictory. What I think you're trying to say is that you are more likely to be raped if you make decisions that make you vulnerable because rapists are likely to take advantage of said vulnerability, rather than being raped in a situation that would be perceived as "safe" such as by a coworker, friend, or family member. The rape is still ultimately the rapist's fault, as no rape can occur without someone to do the raping.


----------



## Zaphod

Coywolf said:


> Dude, i get where you are coming from on some of your posts, but you need to slow your roll with the acusations and bullshit "higher than thou" crap.
> 
> Its really getting to me. Either contribute positively to the conversation or stay out of it.
> 
> Doesnt matter if you are a fascist or a bleeding heart liberal, that kind of attitude will not get you far in this community.
> 
> Like, ALL of your posts have a condecending tone in some manner or another



Y'all need to stop being misogynist, then I'll be happy to have nothingbad to say. Also, Rooster's post is literally hate speech and fascist rhetoric, so maybe you should think about who you cape for 

If tolerance for misogyny is a prerequisite for membership in "this community" maybe y'all have some thinking to do


----------



## Zaphod

strangeandsolo said:


> None of this makes sense.... this back and forth shaming and rants... Some men have problems. So do equal number of women. How you look and behave Effects how predators act in nature. Just a fact. Whether it's the "slutty dressed" girl at the bar about to be assulted Or the "clean cut guy" in the wrong ghetto about to get jumped. Or the "crusty person" beat by cops. We can all be victimised. Make choices too limit what bad can happen to you and be ready when the unexpected does happen. Im gonna catch hell for this im sure. Life is rough the only truth we can all agree on.



Oh, so you DO think it's women's fault that they get raped? Yeah, that's a totally okay opinion to have. Let me say it again for those of us who have burned too many holes in their brains: NO ONE DESERVES TO BE RAPED (regardless of clothing, behavior, socio-economic status, etc)

Dear cis men:

Femme people don't need to be told to protect themselves. Living under patriarchy means that most women can't go out in the world without having to worry about what men will do to them. However, men do need to be told about consent and what constitutes assault cause, by and large, they are the ones perpetrating assault. So, maybe instead of spending your time and energy reminding women they're second class citizens, you should be talking about how to end rape culture and calling out your bros on their misogynist bullshit that perpetuates said culture.


----------



## Coywolf

Zaphod said:


> Y'all need to stop being misogynist, then I'll be happy to have nothingbad to say. Also, Rooster's post is literally hate speech and fascist rhetoric, so maybe you should think about who you cape for
> 
> If tolerance for misogyny is a prerequisite for membership in "this community" maybe y'all have some thinking to do



If THAT is the only response you have to my message, than this:

::finger::

Is all i have to say to you. Because I am obviously a misoginistic, racist, facsist out to destroy the social equlity movement.


----------



## Zaphod

Well, you're definitely a misogynist. I've not seen you be racist or fascist though, nor did I say so, but you can go ahead and put those words in my mouth, but I don't think they'll stick 

Like I told that other person: feel free to hmu when you're ready to do better.


----------



## Coywolf

Zaphod said:


> Well, you're definitely a misogynist. I've not seen you be racist or fascist though, nor did I say so, but you can go ahead and put those words in my mouth, but I don't think they'll stick
> 
> Like I told that other person: feel free to hmu when you're ready to do better.



Ive been on a quest to find the most self-righteous person on StP. My quest is now complete.


----------



## deleted user

Zaphod said:


> Oh, so you DO think it's women's fault that they get raped? Yeah, that's a totally okay opinion to have. Let me say it again for those of us who have burned too many holes in their brains: NO ONE DESERVES TO BE RAPED (regardless of clothing, behavior, socio-economic status, etc)
> 
> Dear cis men:
> 
> Femme people don't need to be told to protect themselves. Living under patriarchy means that most women can't go out in the world without having to worry about what men will do to them. However, men do need to be told about consent and what constitutes assault cause, by and large, they are the ones perpetrating assault. So, maybe instead of spending your time and energy reminding women they're second class citizens, you should be talking about how to end rape culture and calling out your bros on their misogynist bullshit that perpetuates said culture.


 
i do not endorse rape. i am a by-product of rape... find my dad and ask him about it or ask my mother (this subject IS part of my life). i have been molested and assaulted as a child. i only blame the predators who hurt me. sorry that the hindsight advice i have is how to not be a target. im a male human and in no way can i understand a womens perspective. i control only my life. i understand fear of shit that has happened to me before. i make choices to not have it happen again and to minimize risk in the future. (just like we tell new kids to only jump non moving trains so they dont get hurt) Not all humans are evil not all men are rapists. so all this being said... all humans are predators females males and trans folk ,tis why our eyes are set in the front of our faces so we can judge the distance to our prey. anyways i hope yall dont hate me now . be safe be careful out there and love each other..


----------



## Zaphod

strangeandsolo said:


> i do not endorse rape. i am a by-product of rape... find my dad and ask him about it or ask my mother (this subject IS part of my life). i have been molested and assaulted as a child. i only blame the predators who hurt me. sorry that the hindsight advice i have is how to not be a target. im a male human and in no way can i understand a womens perspective. i control only my life. i understand fear of shit that has happened to me before. i make choices to not have it happen again and to minimize risk in the future. (just like we tell new kids to only jump non moving trains so they dont get hurt) Not all humans are evil not all men are rapists. so all this being said... all humans are predators females males and trans folk ,tis why our eyes are set in the front of our faces so we can judge the distance to our prey. anyways i hope yall dont hate me now . be safe be careful out there and love each other..



I'm sorry that happened to you, it still doesn't justify you defending and perpetuating rape culture


----------



## deleted user

Zaphod said:


> I'm sorry that happened to you, it still doesn't justify you defending and perpetuating rape culture


 
you are right! you know all the right answers you know more about me then me, im gonna go think about how right you are about me and i am sorry i had a view of the world that is different from yours it wont happen again. thank you for labeling me and telling me what bad person i am. the way the world indeed all of humanity has acted on this subject is is all my fault. you win.


----------



## Zaphod

pretending like you personally don't contribute to rape culture when you're literally on here defending victim blaming is a little asinine


----------



## Coywolf

Zaphod said:


> pretending like you personally don't contribute to rape culture when you're literally on here defending victim blaming is a little asinine



I did it before, and I'll do it again:

My troll senses are tingling.....

You sir, are a troll.


----------



## Matt Derrick

Coywolf said:


> I did it before, and I'll do it again:
> 
> My troll senses are tingling.....
> 
> You sir, are a troll.



okay, time for everyone to slow their roll. this is going to be everyone's one verbal warning to stop attacking each other and keep your posts in line with the discussion at hand. any further flaming will result in warnings and possibly bans being given.

everyone here is entitled to an opinion (although it's not our responsibility to host all opinions) but you need to share those in a respectful and civil manner without resorting to name calling.

keep it on topic, keep it respectful.


----------



## salxtina

It *is* unfortunate that Zaph is the only one continuing to speak up about this bullshit. But this kind of barrage of misinformation and lies is the exact reason women keep leaving.

The first post says "of course style of dress doesn't cause assault," but then immediately fogs the issue by talking about "other consequences" of dressing differently. None of these "other consequences" are ever named (bc they don't exist), but even if they were, they wouldn't be the focus of the "Clothing doesn't equal Consent" message, which is clearly about assault. The rest of the post pretends to be addressing women, mostly to rant at them for talking about rape, but of course ends with "Everyone Be Gentlemen," giving away that we were never meant to be part of this conversation.

Not going to address the OP, or posters like coywolf who immediately gave their game away by blurting out that women talking about rape would be comedic "GOLD", and would be an "overreaction" to the initial post's provocation. (The initial post, of course, was an absurd response_ to no provocation at all,_ far more ridiculous than any reply could be.)

To anyone reading this in good faith, though - as I did, wrongly thinking a reasonable title might be followed by more reasonable words - I hope you see that besides Zaph, other people like Zim and Queer Coyote are trying to point out how unacceptable this kind of thing is.
At this point I don't ever expect a majority of men in *any* subculture to care about their shared lifestyle/interests more than they care about getting chances to put down women, but I hope y'all see that there are at least attempts here to hold this community to non-abusive standards.


----------



## Coywolf

Sorry Matt, but this tread is fucked. This is a right of way for people to be labeled as rapists, misoginists, sexists, and generally have their names drawn through the mud for not being able to *write* to the standards of other users on here. 

I feel that many of the users who have been called out here generally do care about, further, and practice, social justice.

The accusations and labels on this thread are just another way to divide an already small group of people.

Also, @salxtina , this is what i was reffering to with my original post. This thread turned to crap REAL fast, that is the "Gold" i was reffering to. For you to twist that into me saying that the suffering of rape victims, and the perpetuation of sexual assault is comedic gold, PERFECTLY explains why this thread is turning into garbage. 

Between people saying that women can make decisions to avoid rape, and other people labeling people they have never met as rapists and misogynists, you get the perfect recipe for disaster. Hence, this thread.


----------



## QueerCoyote

@Coywolf, you have definitely contributed with your replies to making this a "crap" thread through off-topic replies that aren't constructive to the conversation. Most of your commentary has been directed at Zaphod personally and not the topic and could have been sent through PM.

I think Zaphod is bringing up some really good points, although a little over-zealously to people who are anti-rape but due to rape culture/miscommunication are further perpetuating putting blame on the victim.

If someone is contributing to rape culture unknowingly but definitely seems anti-assault and pro-consent, I think that bringing them into the fold and calling them out is going to be more effective than calling them out in a way that is guaranteed to put them on the defensive.

Rape culture is much more ingrained and complex than is being treated here and throughout most of society. Even as someone who has been raped/assaulted numerous times and has studied rape culture, it took me a long time to eradicate it from my mentality. It requires a lot of de-construction and people aren't going to "get" it instantly, same with how we all contribute to systemic classism, racism, etc. They're tough subjects, and as much as I would love to not have to deal with any of it ever again, we'd be getting rid of 98% of people if we tried to do that instantly because so much of it is culturally ingrained.


----------



## Coywolf

You know, you are absolutely right @QueerCoyote 

I should have followed my original plan and not touched this thread.

Please continue.


----------



## creature

Ok..
I am already missing my front teeth, so I don't have much to loose..

I'm going to dig down, here, & get to the core:

Desire & Aesthetics..

First off, *generally*, specieal (as in species) beauty is a strictrly subjective perceptive.

I have no idea what a crab desires in a mate, nor a mountain lion, nor anything, really, than the human primate.
& even there, there is a lot of shit any of us could wonder "WTF are *they* thinking???"

So also, generally, it is the case, beyond simple biological gender attraction, that human patriarchy creates presures, in some cases absolute, upon females to express their biological aesthetics (i.e., sense of attractiveness) within social terms in which they are not given determitive equity.

This is especially true when female sexuality is commodified.

"Sex sells" & all that shit.
If you think it's ok for sex to be reduced to quid pro quo, you are in for some fucked up shit, & I'll get to that in a few moments, if I don't blow myself up, first..

Patriarchy *is* the comidification of gender.

Us guys on here, & most decent, equitable, reasonable guys everywhere in the USA & possibly the world, ARE AS CONFUSED AS SHIT as to how we are to respond to the consequential adaptation (NOT 'adoption') by females of the very parameters of oppression which are enforced upon them & which they must coopt in order to present that 'gender aesthetic' in such a way that projects not gender subjugation, but individual self-love & assertiveness, as well as inter-gender hope (i.e. both spiritual and physical attractiveness, availability, etc.etc.etc.)

I bet girls are just as confused as guys, and all I'm going to say (as an aside) is that when guys start talking about what they think women are *saying*, rather than just *being* women, you might as well stick golf balls in their mouths..

Women do not need to make a justification for being women.

They also have a responsibility (yes, responsibility, and this is where all the thoughtless idiocy can chime right the fuck in), a *responsibility* to be carefull of their fucking power.

Men & women, both: be kind to someone you may find unattractive, but don't just fucking flirt with them because you like flirting.

Don't fucking flirt in such a way as to suggest availability, when you *know* you are not, just because you get off on it, or need the rush, or ASSUME that other people know you are 'just' flirting.

People do not need people who think that if they are not being explicit they are not held to a basic standard of honesty.
That is how politicians opperste, and if your sexuality functions on *that* level, you just need to leave the fucking planet.

Male & female players, alike.

So back to golf balls..

No guy who has posted on here, with the exception of chicken shit, has approached the issue in a vacuum.
& as much as it may seem, to some, that the OP was stating prejudicial content, I really believe he was just asking for clarification on how to appreciate and protect our sisters (insert 1/2 dozen golf balls).

Personally?
I would love if we could just walk around naked, or in a sheet, & fuck the constraints of reactionary styles & other modifications.

But I don't understand stuff, much less control it, so it isn't up to me to judge

Now, I've said nothing unreasonable or thoughtless here.

Just because we're rough & tumble doesn't mean we have carte blanche to start telling each other to fuck off.

Sometimes it's deserved, but generally we talk off the cuff & in first drafts, and THAT is a sign of trust & community.

Nobody here wants to continue any kind of victimization, and not a single one if us is perfect in our logic or our language.

fucking *none* of us.

It is destructive to define value by destruction.
It establishes, too early, the need for defensive argument, and is an inherent aside from discussing the subjects at hand.

So in as much as we are able, let's generally try to assume the best about each other & our intent, and see where commonalities can be found, & work from there.

As different as we are, we are all a single army, in a way.
Any of us who mean anything, truthfully, are looking for a sort of minimalism.

Our work is to take from each other what is of value, & build with it.

Our brains & our words are not a cant of starbucks or mcdonalds or fucking walmart, and we have all suffered for our ideas & the way we express them.

so *that* being said, my basic advive, as a general guideline, is "be modest".

This is *advice* for genesl conduct, and not "blaming the victim ", because they weren't modest, nor am I stating a " reap & sow" syllogism.

I personally do not like immodest people, in general.
I do not like those given to constantly needing to make statements, show their beauty or their wealth, who have a need to be fauned upon, who are braggarts, who cause intentional discomfort, are bullies, or are generaly vain.

That being said, it is probably best to keep the company of those whom are modest, because modesty not only both requires and producrd a bit of discipline, it also produces wisdom, and when you have the company of those whom are both disciplined and wise, you are probably also in the safest (and most protective) social environment that can be striven for.

It is nice to trust universally, and to hope that one is not misunderstood, but western culture at large is one of exploitation, and is generally even far more unsafe if we are not aware of our vulnerabilities.

It may not have been stated with as much perfection as some might like, but I think the core of the original post was the admonishment to "be carefull"...


----------



## QueerCoyote

*reads creatures reply*
...
*reads again*
*scratches head, sips some tea, thinks*
*reads a third time*

I'm still not sure completely what you said. The only thing that made sense to me was your part on not assuming the worst of each other, regardless of how things are worded.

Some questions:
Why was flirting brought up and what is the relevancy?

What does men responding to female aesthetics have to do with rape culture aside from the mention of "clothing does not equal consent" in the OP?

What does modesty have to do with the conversation? Was this portion in response to coywolf talking about Zaphod, or is this in relationship to slut-shaming and not rape? Or possibly the fact that men often use the way women dress to excuse assaulting them?

What does beauty have to do with any of it? Particularly in other species?


----------



## Odin

QueerCoyote said:


> *reads creatures reply*
> ...
> *reads again*
> *scratches head, sips some tea, thinks*
> *reads a third time*
> 
> I'm still not sure completely what you said. The only thing that made sense to me was your part on not assuming the worst of each other, regardless of how things are worded.
> 
> Some questions:
> Why was flirting brought up and what is the relevancy?
> 
> What does men responding to female aesthetics have to do with rape culture aside from the mention of "clothing does not equal consent" in the OP?
> 
> What does modesty have to do with the conversation? Was this portion in response to coywolf talking about Zaphod, or is this in relationship to slut-shaming and not rape? Or possibly the fact that men often use the way women dress to excuse assaulting them?
> 
> What does beauty have to do with any of it? Particularly in other species?




wow your very antithetical... bravo tavo... i try to be... I suppose. no sarcasim...ssss hhh coool, 

i try to read creaturelike a mythical tablet from days of dut n yor.,


----------



## QueerCoyote

Odin said:


> wow your very antithetical... bravo tavo... i try to be... I suppose. no sarcasim...ssss hhh coool,
> 
> i try to read creaturelike a mythical tablet from days of dut n yor.,



I'm gonna need to finish at least triple the amount of wine I've currently consumed to aquire your ability to read creature ::drinkingbuddy::


----------



## creature

Sake'... try Sake'...


----------



## RamblingRiverBear

when it's 90 some degrees and I'm walking down the highway with my pack and banjo I'm going to wear shorts and probably a bikini top. fuck off


----------



## creature

So..
The point of this thread is to be mean to each other & criticize each other, instead of trying to figure out what might be meant, then you are being just as assaultive as any physical attack, including the basic, fucked up power fixation of predation.

You aren't making any points, aren't answering any issues, and sure as fuck aren't being instructive in your critiques.

If that's all your fucking anarchy can offer, you need to shove it up your ass & go shit it somewhere else, since that appears to be language you understand. Otherwise you might defer to something more thoughtful.

I tried to be humorous, because as I have heard it used & as it has been explained to me by girls whom have said it, "dressing slutty" is something done at the level of sexual assertiveness, or method of fashion to convey an aesthetic &/or sexual message.

I will go toe to toe with you on this, because 'slutty' as a descriptior for a style or intention of dress is *common* in american dialogue.

Now, maybe I misunderstood, but my take,as noted, is that "dressing slutty" is intentional.
& that's fucking fine.
not my style, not what I look for & if commonly done, doesn't convey to me that a woman understands just how important and valuable her own sexuality is.

But.. fine.. sleep in whatever beds comfort you.

NOT MY FUCKING CALL.
You. YOUR call.

I prefer modesty, but as I said, too, I think being able to walk naked, freely, should be unimpeded.
so.. shorts & a cut tank top are no exception to the point that your dress should not be construed as actual intent of any kind.

But just like people who wear paramilitary clothing (myself included), I fucking *understand* that they might think I'm making an ideological statement, rather than digging on durability and functionality.

Hence I avoid wearing black, for instance, or signs of physical power, or other stuff that carries the potential to be interpreted as unaimed conflict.

But..

You know what?
You show me you deserve reasonable dialogue, and I'll try to present it.
Otherwise I have a shitload of better things to do with my phone's fucking battery than listen to a bunch of immature and antagonistic whining..


----------



## Zaphod

I've actually made quite a few points over the course of this thread that no one has responded to, sooo?


----------



## Zaphod

Also, you literally ignored all of Queer Coyote's questions even though that was the only thing directed at you?


----------



## Coywolf

@creature

He is totally right. He has made some really good points. Like this one....

Zaphod said: 

wow, a man posts some victim blaming bullshit while simultaneously claiming it's not victim-blaming. You can fuck right off

This one....

Zaphod said:

Yeah, which has nothing to do with how they dress and everything to do with how men are trash[/QUOTE]

This one is pretty good...

Zaphod said:

Oh, so you DO think it's women's fault that they get raped? Yeah, that's a totally okay opinion to have. Let me say it again for those of us who have burned too many holes in their brains: NO ONE DESERVES TO BE RAPED (regardless of clothing, behavior, socio-economic status, etc)

Dear cis men:

Femme people don't need to be told to protect themselves. Living under patriarchy means that most women can't go out in the world without having to worry about what men will do to them. However, men do need to be told about consent and what constitutes assault cause, by and large, they are the ones perpetrating assault. So, maybe instead of spending your time and energy reminding women they're second class citizens, you should be talking about how to end rape culture and calling out your bros on their misogynist bullshit that perpetuates said culture.

Annnnnnnd this one....

Zaphod said:

Well, you're definitely a misogynist. I've not seen you be racist or fascist though, nor did I say so, but you can go ahead and put those words in my mouth, but I don't think they'll stick 

Like I told that other person: feel free to hmu when you're ready to do better.

Im glad that we can all agree that sexual assualt, rape, slut shaming, and sexism are horrible things in this world that need to be eradicated, and it is going to take everyone to act to be able to be acheived.


----------



## benton

No human should ever be forced to do something they don't want to do.

If one states 'no woman should be forced' it implies that it may be okay to force a man, or that it is somehow a less serious transgression if it happens to a male.

I'm a man and I've been sexually harassed numerous times and even groped.

Under a system of equality, it is just as "bad" when it happens to me as it is when it happens to a female.


----------



## Zaphod

oh hey look, more men derailling the discussion to be like "but MEN too though!" (wanna throw in some "all lives matter" while you're at it?)

Coywolf literally comes to troll this thread, rage quits on several posts when he doesn't have anything to actually contribute, only to come back again and again. LOL


----------



## QueerCoyote

benton said:


> No human should ever be forced to do something they don't want to do.
> 
> If one states 'no woman should be forced' it implies that it may be okay to force a man, or that it is somehow a less serious transgression if it happens to a male.
> 
> I'm a man and I've been sexually harassed numerous times and even groped.
> 
> Under a system of equality, it is just as "bad" when it happens to me as it is when it happens to a female.



But MeN arE raPEd tOO So WHy aRe wE TAlkinG abOuT woMEn


----------



## deleted user

THE REAL POINT!!



Coywolf said:


> Im glad that we can all agree that sexual assualt, rape, slut shaming, and sexism are horrible things in this world that need to be eradicated, and it is going to take everyone to act to be able to be acheived.



IS this not the real point.
So i tried deleting myself but that takes weeks sooo let me get banned.......

wow this thread its ez to see some of you are trolling and just string up shit or that some are bleeding heart, participation awarded, everyone is special, the world owes me, little shitheads, i bet even money you have never known rape or abuse or the feeling of being powerless while another human hurts you or takes advantage of you taking that which is precious to you some strangers doing this or even worse trusted family and friends .you brush off my past as a victim because it dosent support you point of view. or because i just dont matter to you as a human. i can only offer hindsight advice sorry. Question is anyone trying to help those of us with other perspectives understand a different point of view or is it just a bunch of shaming and shit storming i feel like this tread has killed a whole years worth of feelings of goodness i had about stp. it kept me up at night i have been asking friends and family about it idont know it got under my skin . just cause im a male doesnt make me a monster . i dont hate. i behave the best i can soo what am i to do ????


----------



## Coywolf

strangeandsolo said:


> it just a bunch of shaming and shit storming i feel like this tread has killed a whole years worth of feelings of goodness i had about stp. it kept me up at night i have been asking friends and family about it idont know it got under my skin



Im beginning to wonder if this post's intention was purely a social experiement, honestly.

What is the point of replying to the OP's original message (now) if there has been no response by the OP? We havent heard from @AlwaysLost since the original post. 

@strangeandsolo i do agree with this post getting under the skin, I havent seen such division and accusations among members since:

https://squattheplanet.com/threads/why-was-rob-nothing-banned-and-other-musings.32293/

It makes me sad that instead of coming away with knowledge, and a changed view on an important topic, some are coming away with a new label, and a bad taste in their mouths about an otherwise welcoming group of people.


----------



## Beegod Santana

"And as the maggots devoured the rotting corpse of civil conversation they slowly realized the only thing uglier than the corpse, was themselves."


----------



## AlwaysLost

Sorry life got a little busy and that post got a lot of convuluted so I will do a more concise thing of my views.

1. It is never the victims fault if they get raped. But our choices can increase and decrease the likelihood of being raped/murdered/stolen from. Sometimes however unfortunately there is a 0% chance of avoiding it.

Some days every choice you make could unfortunately lead to your death. If a nuclear bomb goes off in your city it doesnt matter whether you go right or left out the door that morning.

My best friend was raped because she took an opened drink from a coworker she went out on a date with. Was it her fault of course not. But never take drinks from anyone in a bar ever especially on the first date. conversely my male friend got roofied in North Hollywood. 

2. RAPISTS DO NOT GIVE A SHIT WHAT YOU ARE WEARING. I am 100% anti rape. I have taught self defense classes for women. But this clothing does not = consent movement is ridiculous.

If clothing had any correlation to rape then Nude beaches would be giant rape rallys. 

RAPISTS RAPE BECAUSE THEY ARE RAPISTS.

3. The only thing provacative clothing will do is maybe bring more attention to you. But a normal nonsexually deviant man will never rape you, because you have chosen to dress a certain way.

4. People will percieve you the way you present yourself. You dont get to create a BS movement to exempt yourself from this.

Great discussion guys I am sorry I made anyone feel like I thought rape was okay or in any way the victims fault. Its not.


----------



## Zaphod

When you say "no one deserves to be raped" but then qualify it with "but the way you dress effects how people treat you" is contradictory at best and victim blaming at worst.

How is the idea that clothing isn't consent even a controversy? Of course clothing doesn't equal consent!

Also, you're victim blaming your friend for getting date raped, so maybe cut that shit out too.

There's a reason very few women have replied to this thread; it's because y'all have made it an incredibly unsafe space with your victim blaming and otherwise rape culture-excusing toxic masculine behavior


----------



## salxtina

Lost, at this point I can basically believe you wrote this with good intention and a lot of confusion, and not with the same intent as people who jumped on to engage in sexist/homophobic trolling. (whom there are several of!)

I can... kind of understand (?) how you might read the message "clothing is not consent" as "perpetrators are choosing women to attack based on how they dress, we need to defend/speak up for women who are being targeted for how they dress." And you might object that that's a ridiculous message because perpetrators don't target victims based on clothing.
*That's not the message.*

Now you seem to say that men won't violently attack women, but will maybe (it's vague) stare at them or think of them as unprofessional, based on their appearance. The thing is that this attention and these assumptions, in this culture, also include assuming who women choose to have sex with and seeing women as objects and as lying / not having boundaries that matter. One scumbag probably won't assault a woman *because of her clothing* per se, but dozens of people will say a woman is lying or had no right to refuse, *because of this same thing.* 
Women have had to band together to fight this attitude in bosses, lawyers, juries, their families even, to get recognized that it even was a violent crime that rapists committed and not just a natural result of their bodies being too visible. *That's the message.*

Anyway this thread is a mess because a string of people decided it was a good platform for their sexist and homophobic bullshit. Including one man who several stp members witnessed assault an unconscious woman! So that's the kind of crowd this draws apparently.


----------



## QueerCoyote

AlwaysLost said:


> 2. RAPISTS DO NOT GIVE A SHIT WHAT YOU ARE WEARING. I am 100% anti rape. I have taught self defense classes for women. But this clothing does not = consent movement is ridiculous.
> 
> If clothing had any correlation to rape then Nude beaches would be giant rape rallys.
> 
> RAPISTS RAPE BECAUSE THEY ARE RAPISTS.
> 
> 3. The only thing provacative clothing will do is maybe bring more attention to you. But a normal nonsexually deviant man will never rape you, because you have chosen to dress a certain way.
> 
> 4. People will percieve you the way you present yourself. You dont get to create a BS movement to exempt yourself from this.
> 
> Great discussion guys I am sorry I made anyone feel like I thought rape was okay or in any way the victims fault. Its not.



People who commit sexual assault might not care what you are wearing, but they will 100% use it to defend and excuse their actions.

Not addressing this, the fact that men use women's apparel to justify rape **even though it did not cause the rape**, is plain stupid. What's stupider is saying it's a bullshit movement when it was literally made to hold men accountable for assaulting women and justifying it.

You want to help stop rape, don't make fun of a movement that is literally calling men out on using clothing to justify assault. It doesn't matter if you think rape is wrong or not someone's fault if you're working against movements that aim to stop the justification of sexual assault.

As an aside, I'm pretty sure every woman I know would say you can't be anti-assault if you're against anti-assault movements and that this viewpoint would make them intensely uncomfortable. It makes me uncomfortable, pretty dang sure it makes @salxtina uncomfortable, AND a few of the men here. Consider why your viewpoint might make us feel uncomfortable/unsafe. *Being against rape is not a free pass to ridicule anti-assault movements led primarily by women who have been assaulted.*

"4. People will percieve you the way you present yourself. You dont get to create a BS movement to exempt yourself from this."

This BS movement has nothing to do with how someone presents themselves and EVERYTHING to do with men using scandalous clothing as an excuse for assault.

"Look at her clothing, if she didn't want it she wouldn't have dressed like that."

"How could I be expected to not touch her when she walked in front of me looking like that? She was asking for it."

It is NOT "I should be able to dress like a slut whenever, wherever I want and not be treated any differently."

The bullshit is in your argument, not in the clothing is not consent movement.


----------



## QueerCoyote

Kudos to @Matt Derrick, @zim, and @Zaphod for being the only contributors to the original topic that have shown that they've deconstructed rape culture enough to not:
-defend rape culture while thinking they're promoting an anti-rape standpoint
-ridicule anti-assault movements
-redirect the topic to put men in the place of victims

Every other dude on this thread addressing the OP topic has said at least one thing that fits into one of those three categories.

And to @salxtina for still being willing to try to explain why shit is problematic even after the mess of replies.


----------



## ironman

RamblingRiverBear said:


> when it's 90 some degrees and I'm walking down the highway with my pack and banjo I'm going to wear shorts and probably a bikini top. fuck off


Watch out for sun burn


----------



## roughsleeper

get the fuck off this site with this victim blaming shit


----------



## benton

QueerCoyote said:


> But MeN arE raPEd tOO So WHy aRe wE TAlkinG abOuT woMEn
> View attachment 39837
> 
> 
> View attachment 39838


ridicule is not a valid debate technique

surely there was enough "meat on the bone" to avoid reframing my argument

I have a penis and a perspective and a viewpoint and ideas. Anybody don't like it, fuck em.


----------



## dumpster harpy

benton said:


> I have a penis and a perspective and a viewpoint and ideas. Anybody don't like it, fuck em.



In a thread about rape culture? Really?


----------

