# Modern Kids Stories affected by the virus of civilization



## AuraLicht (Aug 23, 2013)

Today I was at the local school to read stories to kids and to my surprise, they came with a book about a funny paleo child that used to paint animals in caves and everytime he did that, bisons, deers, all kind of birds, mammuth etc... would gather around him.
Unfortunately though, people from his tribe blinded with greed, took advantage of the situation and killed most of the animals so that they ended up without food and instead of hunting/gathering, humans became agriculturists..

I did not like the ending - that came totally unexpected as I did not know the book - but I quickly turned its message to a more proactive one - that is respect and care for the natural resources around.

And it came just about right because we went to pick some cherimoyas right after.






This event stimulated some thoughts into my head, like


Yet again we can see that "total faith in civilization"is lurking at every corner and it is scary the way and the means it uses to propagate itself like a deadly virus..


It was sad and alarming at the same time to notice that the writers of this story pointed to this passage in history of man as if it was a "blessing". And it is ever present in civilization..


Faith in agriculture is same to faith in technology.
We are moving towards an era where the food will be made of plastic and 3d printed foods and the premises are just the same as for the gmo`s - saving world from hunger.
This time we will get supersick and die instead of bugs and billion people will be exterminated within maybe 1 generation?

Aura Licht


----------



## albertson (Aug 23, 2013)

Might just be my biased view but, I don't think the we could sustain 7+ billion population by hunting and gathering.

I agree the amount of reliance on society is an awful thing but, reliance is a very difficult cycle to escape. Even If you don't rely on society just about every thing you do will feed it one way another. I think we need more people to start questioning different aspects of society. Once we have have that we can start to restructure. 

I don't think reliance on technology or agriculture is a bad thing at all. Reliance doesn't have to be faith. Technology and agricultural are two things we're entirely capable of understanding. Sustainable agricultural is a very real thing.


----------



## AuraLicht (Aug 24, 2013)

albertson said:


> Might just be my biased view but, I don't think the we could sustain 7+ billion population by hunting and gathering.



Hi Albertson, I am not proposing hunter/gathering as a solution for this planet.

What I think is that e became 7+ because of agriculture and technology together. And both of them are solely a product of the limited and inexperienced mind of man.



albertson said:


> I agree the amount of reliance on society is an awful thing but, reliance is a very difficult cycle to escape. Even If you don't rely on society just about every thing you do will feed it one way another. I think we need more people to start questioning different aspects of society. Once we have have that we can start to restructure.


That is because we were shaped since our birth to think, to be, to act upon the thought of this reliance.
There are still uncontacted tribes in the world today that shows us a complete integration with Nature is possible.



albertson said:


> I don't think reliance on technology or agriculture is a bad thing at all. Reliance doesn't have to be faith. Technology and agricultural are two things we're entirely capable of understanding. Sustainable agricultural is a very real thing.



Civilization itself is destined to fall.
Just have a look at the so called "great" civilization of the past..
They all started to degenerate because of lack of resources.
And there were far less people to mantain. And they had"advanced" agricultural tecniques far superior than what we have today.
So, what about us`?

In my opinion, we are far from mastering agriculture and technology.

Time has come (for some that are aware enough) to stop relieng on something that is "external" to the human being and start to nourish the inner faculties of Man.


----------



## deleted user (Aug 24, 2013)

Agreed that agriculture and technology are the same, both perpetuate human supremacy and both colonize our minds to the notion that we can not exist without either.

There is no doubt that 7+billion people can not exist on this planet without killing it. In the next 10 years we will know that very intimately. Honestly the socialization of the 7+billion people will never allow us to go back to the land, and if some how human beings survive the next 50 years I can not help but feel domination resisting people will not have a culture of their own. Instead the children of this fucked up western culture will carry the torch to a new red day, where human supremacy goes unquestioned and the people share an illusion of progress. 

Non the less its better to do what you can that except this^. If anything else the people that may survive the coming and ongoing climate chaos actually survive, I will do what I can now to make sure that they see their lives on par with other living beings. I could not tell you what or how I would accomplish this realistically, but I can't help but feel it is of the up most importance.


----------



## deleted user (Aug 24, 2013)

Also that book sounds dreadful. Glad you where able to change the message for these poor kids.


----------



## AuraLicht (Aug 24, 2013)

stukovthetuna said:


> Agreed that agriculture and technology are the same, both perpetuate human supremacy and both colonize our minds to the notion that we can not exist without either.
> 
> There is no doubt that 7+billion people can not exist on this planet without killing it. In the next 10 years we will know that very intimately. Honestly the socialization of the 7+billion people will never allow us to go back to the land, and if some how human beings survive the next 50 years I can not help but feel domination resisting people will not have a culture of their own. Instead the children of this fucked up western culture will carry the torch to a new red day, where human supremacy goes unquestioned and the people share an illusion of progress.
> 
> Non the less its better to do what you can that except this^. If anything else the people that may survive the coming and ongoing climate chaos actually survive, I will do what I can now to make sure that they see their lives on par with other living beings. I could not tell you what or how I would accomplish this realistically, but I can't help but feel it is of the up most importance.



Cool ::smug::


----------



## albertson (Aug 24, 2013)

Hello Aura



> I am not proposing hunter/gathering as a solution for this planet.


|
If not hunting/ gathering, and it sounds like you don't support agriculture. Do you have a third option?



> There are still uncontacted tribes in the world today that shows us a complete integration with Nature is possible.


Good, I hope we never corrupt them.



> Just have a look at the so called "great" civilization of the past..
> They all started to degenerate because of lack of resources.


I'm not sure what you mean by "great" civilization. Usually civilizations are conquered because they have an abundance of resources, they don't just run out of bred and go vacant like department stores. If every civilization ran out of resources, there wouldn't be a whole lot left today. Yet we grow


----------



## albertson (Aug 24, 2013)

double post


----------



## AuraLicht (Aug 24, 2013)

albertson said:


> Hello Aura
> 
> |
> If not hunting/ gathering, and it sounds like you don't support agriculture. Do you have a third option?



Switching to a new dietary paradigm that is adopting "unusual" wild, resistant plants instead of domesticated varieties.

An example? 

_Mandioc_ (or any other semi_wild root) as a primary source of *starch*,
_Insects/snakes/tarantulas/frogs/snails_ as a quickly accessible source of *protein*, 

_Wild shoots and leaves _(the so called "wild edibles" ; no need more than an handful and they grow just about everywhere in abandoned fields or by the side of the roads), as a super packed fresh minerals and vitamins dose

This would be a mixture betweeen the hunter/gatherer and the agriculturist lifestyle.

Not to mention the tremendous health/economical/global benefit of this simple but nutritious diet.



albertson said:


> Good, I hope we never corrupt them.



Logging companies are getting there with the excuse of deforesting in order to feed us.
When indigenous tribes are found and left with nothing, governments send straight after priests, people from social services, doctors to pollute their emotions, their psychology and their health each of them experimenting on those pristine people.
And this is going on today, just like in the past.
The difference is that governments convinced the majority of people that what they are really trying to do is to help indigenous people, to give them"civil rights" and get an "education" and a "health plan"..




albertson said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "great" civilization. Usually civilizations are conquered because they have an abundance of resources, they don't just run out of bred and go vacant like department stores. If every civilization ran out of resources, there wouldn't be a whole lot left today. Yet we grow




I mean the Babilonian, Roman, Aegyptian, Mayan... They all fell after wrong agricultural practices.


*LAND RESOURCES, AGRICULTURE AND THE RISE
AND FALL OF CIVILIZATIONS, EMPIRES AND NATIONS
Gerhard Nortjé for MC. Laker (Retired Professor of Soil Science, UP)

The below article was written by Professor Giel Laker, retired
Professor of Soil Science and Plant Nutrition at the University of
Pretoria. It shows that throughout human history, civilizations
 
depended on agriculture for their survival, and the soon as their

agricultural industries collapsed, their civilization also collapsed.

A. Background
In 1961 I had to study the article “Soil and Society“ by Charles E.
Kellogg as part of my ﬁnal year soil science course at the
University of Stellenbosch. It was one of the articles in the 1938
Yearbook of Agriculture of the USA, titled “Soils and men“. I
became fascinated by the descriptions of the very tight
relationships between the quality of land resources, their
destruction through misuse, the strength of agriculture and the
rise and fall of civilizations and empires. I afterwards read as much
as I could ﬁnd on this topic.
When I arrived at the University of Fort Hare in 1974, we in the
Faculty of Agriculture made quite extensive studies of the reasons
for the successes and failures of various countries in regard to
economic development in modern times. The aim was to ﬁnd a
model for successful development of the less developed (really
underdeveloped) parts of South Africa.
Later I received a copy of the USA‘s 1987 Yearbook ofAgriculture
titled “Our American Land'. Its preface starts with: “Land and
history are often inseparable subjects _ _ _." The ﬁrst section of
the book is titled “The Land and the Constitution". This section has
six articles dealing with this topic.
B. Ancient and old civilizations and empires
There are several recollections that the strong ancient civilizations
were based on strong agriculture on fertile soils, usually on large
river plains. At their peaks they were economically and militarily
dominant. They collapsed and disappeared from the face of the
earth when they neglected their agricultural resource base and it
degraded to the point that itcould no longersustain them. Only two
will be dealt with brieﬂy here, viz. Mesopotamia and the Mayan
civilization.
Mesopotamia is by far the best known and most quoted example.
In Old Testament Biblical times Mesopotamia, with Babylon as
capital, was at a stage by far the most dominant civilization/empire
of the then known world. It covered the fertile plains of the Tigris
and Euphrates rivers and was the grain store of the world. It
collapsed when its soils became degraded to the point that they
became unproductive and could no longer sustain its population.
Today this is the desert of Iraq, with only a small fraction of the
population that it had at the height of the powers of Mesopotamia.
There is some uncertainty about the real reasons for the
degradation of the land in Mesopotamian times. Some believe the
main reason was simply poor agricultural management (including
poor irrigation management). Others believe that the destruction
of the forests in the upper catchments of the rivers (the cedars in
the mountains of Lebanon) by harvesting the wood for
construction purposes was the real death knell. This caused the
water ﬂow to become erratic — with ﬂoods followed by droughts —
instead of having a steady water ﬂow.
The Mayan civilization in Central America was a great example of
culture and strength. It was based on a strong agriculture on the
fertile Mollisols of the area. But then the population became too big
and they had to expand their agriculture onto shallow soils that
could not take the pressure. Severe soil degradation followed,
followed by collapse of the Mayan civilization and its complete
disappearance. Only the ruins of their once marvellous temples
are left.
The rise and fall of the Roman Empire is the best example of an
old, but not ancient, empire that collapsed because it neglected its
land resources and agriculture. At the peak of its powers the
mighty and wealthy fat cat Romans became estranged from the
land. While they were having their orgies in Rome it was left to the
slaves to tend to the land and produce the food. The result was
gross neglect and serious land degradation and the land could no
longer sustain the population. Eventually the Roman Empire
became almost completely dependent on grain imported from
North Africa. And that was the end of the once mighty Roman
Empire.
0. Recent examples
The USA is the best-known example of a nation that has in recent
times become a world super power on the basis of a strong
agriculture, thanks to excellent natural resources, especially vast
expanses of fertile soils. Upon this followed its strong industrial,
economic and political development.
What stood out in the studies at the time at Fort Hare was the
difference between Japan and India at that stage. Japan took the
route of ﬁrst getting a strong agricultural development going. It is
history how very strong industrial development then followed.
India decided to take the industrial development route. It never got
off the ground. Fortunately for India the Green Revolution then hit
the world. Indian conditions were just perfect for it— large areas of
fertile soils, lots of water, etc. Suddenly agriculture boomed in
India. And suddenly India exploded into an industrial and
economicgiant.
D. Zimbabwe
During the last few years Zimbabwe has become the latest

classical example of the type of fate that struck Mesopotamia and
the Mayans. The country has huge mining and other potential. It
was a very strong country, based on a strong agriculture that fed
not only its own population, but provided the staple food for other
African countries as far aﬁeld as the DRC. The change in political
regime from Smith to Mugabe did not make a difference. The
country remained economically strong for about 20 years afterthe
changeover. But then in 2002 (was it?) Mugabe became uncertain
of political victory in the election and embarked on a campaign that
destroyed Zimbabwe's agriculture. What happened? Despite its
rich mineral reserves of chrome, etc. the whole country collapsed
in next to no time the moment that its agriculture was destroyed.
E. Africa's latestexample
Over the 2008/2009 festive season Guinea was in the news when
the president died and government was taken over by the military.
From the reports on the country during this time, it seems that it is
another perfect classical of the relationship between natural
resources, agriculture and the rise and fall of civilizations, empires
and nations. From different newspaper and radio reports the
following emerged about Guinea:
1. It is the world's biggest exporter of aluminium ore and has
reserves of gold and other precious metals;
lllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
é
I mango growers' association
2. Despite the above, it is one of the poorest and most
troublesome countries. This does not really make sense in
view ofthe above;
3. It used to be an exporter of agricultural products, but its
agriculture has collapsed and it is now an importer of these.
80, #2 above now makes sense - it ﬁts the general pattern
that has developed through the ages.
F. Question
Will Gauteng be able to save South Africa when the country‘s
agriculture collapses — amongst others because Gauteng is
gulping up all water that could have been used for irrigation
development?
Today, in the 21st century we have numerous examples to show
us that history is repeating itself. Governments, especially in the
third world countries do not value their agriculture at all.
Zimbabwe, our Northern neighbour, is a very good example. It has
been said that Africa are able to feed the wortd. But just the
opposite is happening - people are starving. A big, bad tendency
in the world is that Governments do not listen to their scientists and
good common sense.
*


----------



## Tude (Aug 24, 2013)

whoa - how bout a link from where this link came from, thx


----------



## Matt Derrick (Aug 25, 2013)

Also, this is extremely off topic for this website. I also think this is a bunch of hippy crap, but that's just my opinion. Moved to general banter. 

Also, please don't preach a bunch of stuff you've already decided the answer to within your first 5 posts on the board. It's annoying.


----------



## Tude (Aug 25, 2013)

<snicker> hippy crap


----------



## AuraLicht (Aug 25, 2013)

Matt Derrick said:


> Also, this is extremely off topic for this website. I also think this is a bunch of hippy crap, but that's just my opinion. Moved to general banter.
> 
> Also, please don't preach a bunch of stuff you've already decided the answer to within your first 5 posts on the board. It's annoying.



I thought this was an anarchy forum. I write about my personal experiences in the forest I live and views on anarcho-primitivism and re-wilding.

I am not preaching. Just sharing and confronting "my" ideas with others.
And to do that, I need to have already a position.
What is the problem with that?

I am not able to add link to posts. Someone help?

Thank You


----------



## AuraLicht (Aug 25, 2013)

Matt Derrick said:


> I also think this is a bunch of hippy crap, but that's just my opinion.
> .



Hey, that is the way I am living.


----------



## travelin (Aug 25, 2013)

the earth hasn't even noticed there is such a thing as homo sapiens.


----------



## travelin (Aug 25, 2013)

it double posted


----------



## Matt Derrick (Aug 25, 2013)

You have to have a certain amount of posts already on the board before you're allowed to post links. It's an anti-spam measure.


----------



## albertson (Aug 25, 2013)

Thinking about it I agree with you, Aura. All civilizations grow and die, just like most things in the universe. Most civilizations form as a result of agriculture. So yes, agricultural does lead to the fall of civilization.

I also have several reasons why I don't like that article. let me know if you want to see them.



> Also, please don't preach a bunch of stuff you've already decided the answer to within your first 5 posts on the board. It's annoying.


I was kind of worried about that. This is something I can actually talk about, unlike trains and hitchhiking where I only know as much as I've read on the forum.


----------



## youngbuckwithapickuptruck (Mar 24, 2020)

is sustainable living possible with 7billion people on this planet?

not when there are greedy people who feel they deserve more than others and/or want power. lame people will always exist


----------

