# They will not share what they got



## THE REAL SCAVENGER (Jan 3, 2019)

I am writing this in response to several experiences I have just recently had. I also come with a question. Is there possible to stay at people's houses that have never been homeless and not make them feel uncomfortable in any kind of way????

When I typically get housed up, it is by old friends, or housed up travelers. Sometimes, college kids or housie rich kid punks will also house me. Or environmental girls. Or girls that work at starbucks. Blue collar guys. Ranch hands. Outdoorsy yuppies. Gangsters. Road cyclists. The list goes on. There's two kinds of people in the world.

1. People who have always had everything handed to them and then they maintain that, by having stable employment thus gaining stabile resources for their entire life.

2. People who have not had things and either wallow in that misery or they gain skills and become extremely creative.

I have stayed at both kinds of people's houses. I almost always somehow fuck something up with type 1. I overstay or somehow use an object that apparently was off limits or something. I consider myself to be a very respectful person. Really, just about everyone in my life would agree, for the most part.

Type 2, it's essentially impossible to overstay. When I am a housie, I am completely fucking estatic when travelers visit me. What do ya need????!!!! Tell me!!! If I can!!! I will give them everything!!! And probably for free! Because I got skills that allow me to not be torn up about anything! I can give you so much without a single cent in my pocket. I have never made anyone in the type 2 category feel any kind of way, EVER.

The question is it is possible for people who truly are street kids with radical beliefs to co exist with the type 1???? I ask because I'm kind of thinking I no longer want to be around anyone unless they know how to share. Sharing what you got truly is the only thing that makes sense. Why keep things You don't need, that I myself would use, everywhere and every day??? I don't get it. This shit completely blows me the fuck away


----------



## Tude (Jan 3, 2019)

3. People who work hard for what that have and yet are generous and enjoy helping people out.

I fall into this category and have enjoyed many visits from travelers over the years - and have helped out many people on the road who are in trouble.


----------



## THE REAL SCAVENGER (Jan 3, 2019)

Tude said:


> 3. People who work hard for what that have and yet are generous and enjoy helping people out.
> 
> I fall into this category and have enjoyed many visits from travelers over the years - and have helped out many people on the road who are in trouble.


Yes blue collar or self made people exist, that is right although they are more of a 2. Hugely generalizing here to simplify


----------



## T Paradise (Jan 3, 2019)

THE REAL SCAVENGER said:


> The question is it is possible for people who truly are street kids with radical beliefs to co exist with the type 1???? I ask because I'm kind of thinking I no longer want to be around anyone unless they know how to share.


Do you think the people of category one don't share enough of their possessions with you, even though they housed you up?
The question is how radical the beliefs of the street kid are.


----------



## Deleted member 20 (Jan 3, 2019)

I think that much of life is like a giant sociological experiment with 80% of life in simply showing up. There is also a definite skill to know when to leave somewhere. How long are you crashing with people before you run into these situations? There are always pros & cons to all situations. Something I try to do is to determine what "my" purpose is for being somewhere & or with certain people. I also need to fully clarify all invitations to determine for how long I visit. Having a house-guest does not automatically equal taking on a roommate.

Much of interacting with others involves establishing healthy boundaries. Expectations, ignorance and fear often prevent finding true mutual acceptance. To find an individual sort of equanimity is ideal for everyone. Balance is a funny thing with many aspects of one life so precariously on the verge of upsetting the serenity of the whole. Even as a housed up person, I cannot/do not interact with others on a social level because of personality quirks, lifestyle differences, political philosophies etc. I can not imagine having some of these people on my social media platforms; let alone staying with me or vice versa. Just as punk-houses & communal living situations are plagued with human caused dramas around people so too can any home environment. Whenever an additional member is involved there are risks of upsetting the apple cart. One thing to consider is that we all have different sensibilities, ideals & lifestyles. What may be right for me may not jive with others. One is no more correct than another. Its all just choices & circumstances. The way you feel might also change if you had housemates/dependents/pets in a housing situation that required an amount of walking the line in order to preserve it. My landlord lives downstairs from my place, so I can only get away with a certain amount of stuff opposed to having absentee landlords or owning a home.

Fear is also powerful, especially in those who are terrified of being homeless, unemployed & un-tethered. While many of the cross-section of lives where you visit may not be your perfect version of life; perhaps those who built it work very hard at keeping their life in peace & harmony. Some people may be seem envious to your lifestyle in a romantic sense of living outside of the mainstream; but would they ever sacrifice their own life to attempt it? Probably not, since all lives are intentional. We all live as we desire or can manage given our circumstances.

Having the expectations that others must share because they have a surplus is simply unrealistic. To think that others are entitled is probably not accurate either as there must be much unseen sacrifice that accompanies their lives. Capitalism is built on greed & exploitation & most likely your hosts have simply entered into that agreement & may somehow benefit but are also just exploited cogs in that machine. Now, I feel that if I have something that could be better used to benefit an others life than I usually weigh out the pros & cons. I routinely collect, fix up & give away bikes to homebums & or newly sober alcoholics in recovery. Many people are unskilled in the tasks of survival in order to thrive & be happy with any amount of stuff, anywhere. Obviously you are contributing something by your presence but is it equal to that of your host?. It may be that simplicity & minimalism makes more sense then the 9-5 rat race life for some. Or some rat racing exists to be able to fund the bare necessities. Some of us have been travellers, homeless, housies & wage slaves. I have finally built a perfect home ecosystem that truly is really fragile. The fragility of a home may not be fully understood by guests who may not be invested in its long term success.

Just because another chooses to be an employee does not mean that they must openly share what little that they have. I think that a persons home is their sanctuary and without a sanctuary, few can truly live at peace. To demand that others "know how to share" could lead to isolationism. We all need to know how to be good guests & good hosts. As civilized guests in an others sanctuary, are we welcome? & if so for how long? are we contributing? should we contribute? How often do I take for granted the fact that I have electricity, food, wifi, heat, water, vehicles etc. When I am a guest while traveling, I take full advantage of the existing finite charitable infrastructure, knowing it must be used while available (washer/dryer, shower, computer/internet, kitchen etc.). Also as a host I try to figure out the needs of my guests & kick down the surplus items that will be better appreciated & used by new users. That stems from knowing how others live & or travel.

I think its important to put yourself in the shoes of the other person & see the world through a different lens while in their sanctuary. Just as they must be doing when they invite you into their home. It should be a sort of temporary cultural exchange. If you plan on staying anywhere longer than a week than there should be clear rules, boundaries, contribution factors and responsibilities of being a tenant versus being a temporary guest. Obviously if you plan on actually living someplace instead of just crashing than you would put more effort into building the sort of home that suits you best. You may not decide to have roommates or live with your host.

Some hosts may feel some sort of moral obligation to save, assist & or fix you. You may think that you are perceived as a peer but others may view you as a project. Many people who have never traveled & or been homeless might see all the good attributes that you possess but think that if you just had a little help; you too could live like them. Many people do not introspectively judge how/where,why they live; the way they do. Many people can assume a hierarchical role and act as saviors or evangelists. Some could naively think that they could fix a person by helping someone get a job, find an apartment, get sober, grow roots, get a fico score, drivers license, car, friends and or find a spouse yadda, yadda yadda.

The flip side of not wanting to be a radical guest is to become a radical host. These exchanges are certainly meaningful situations that guide us all and will surely occur again in the future. Good luck


----------



## noothgrush (Jan 3, 2019)

If you can't see why some people would be hesitant about letting strangers stay where they lay their heads, you ain't been been around long enough. I get your point of view but I also get theirs. The world seems to be getting shadier and shadier. And I'm not sure that giving people something for nothing is helping the situation.


----------



## THE REAL SCAVENGER (Jan 3, 2019)

T Paradise said:


> Do you think the people of category one don't share enough of their possessions with you, even though they housed you up?
> The question is how radical the beliefs of the street kid are.


I am trying to see if I am being entitled or not. Maybe I am


----------



## THE REAL SCAVENGER (Jan 3, 2019)

I


noothgrush said:


> If you can't see why some people would be hesitant about letting strangers stay where they their heads, you ain't been been around long enough. I get your point of view but I also get theirs. The world seems to be getting shadier and shadier. And I'm not sure that giving people something for nothing is helping the situation.


 i have been off and on since I was 16 and have had a lot of things stolen from me


----------



## THE REAL SCAVENGER (Jan 3, 2019)

highwayman said:


> I think that much of life is like a giant sociological experiment with 80% of life in simply showing up. There is also a definite skill to know when to leave somewhere. How long are you crashing with people before you run into these situations? There are always pros & cons to all situations. Something I try to do is to determine what "my" purpose is for being somewhere & or with certain people. I also need to fully clarify all invitations to determine for how long I visit. Having a house-guest does not automatically equal taking on a roommate.
> 
> Much of interacting with others involves establishing healthy boundaries. Expectations, ignorance and fear often prevent finding true mutual acceptance. To find an individual sort of equanimity is ideal for everyone. Balance is a funny thing with many aspects of one life so precariously on the verge of upsetting the serenity of the whole. Even as a housed up person, I cannot/do not interact with others on a social level because of personality quirks, lifestyle differences, political philosophies etc. I can not imagine having some of these people on my social media platforms; let alone staying with me or vice versa. Just as punk-houses & communal living situations are plagued with human caused dramas around people so too can any home environment. Whenever an additional member is involved there are risks of upsetting the apple cart. One thing to consider is that we all have different sensibilities, ideals & lifestyles. What may be right for me may not jive with others. One is no more correct than another. Its all just choices & circumstances. The way you feel might also change if you had housemates/dependents/pets in a housing situation that required an amount of walking the line in order to preserve it. My landlord lives downstairs from my place, so I can only get away with a certain amount of stuff opposed to having absentee landlords or owning a home.
> 
> ...


I posted this because I needed to read something like this. Thank you for sharing this knowledge with me, it will change my dynamic


----------



## noothgrush (Jan 3, 2019)

Maybe I'm just cynical. I don't like selfishness but I'm not opposed to the idea of healthy skepticism of the motives of half the people I meet on the street either.


----------



## warlo (Jan 3, 2019)

after almost a decade of going around I learned to appreciate more someone opening their doors to let me have a shower and then go. I prefer to stay outdoors so long I find a place where i can have a restful sleep. Staying indoors is great, but I rather busk some money and pay a hostel nowadays that go trough strangers, specially since it has become easier for me to get some cash out of the streets than meet and convince strangers that im not the devil. 
Dont get me wrong, I still would prefer to meet good strangers and receive their hospitality, and that still happens, just not so often (as people like that are rare). I have met some amazing people that hosted me at their homes and we both made it into a great experience (some of them are great friends of mine now). but mainly its been with the type that you generally describe as wealthy and uncomfortable of your presence. And there's nothing wrong with them really, I mean, they managed to open the door for you and thats a big thing for most people in current society. problem is that their efforts fall short if you stay longer than a night. If i get that kind of offer, I would ask for a shower, maybe wash some clothes, sleep well for a night and then go away early so i can fix whatever needs to be fixed to not need another night like that. problems usually start when you stay longer, and if you are observant you can figure out the type every time and decide based on that.


----------



## THE REAL SCAVENGER (Jan 3, 2019)

warlo said:


> after almost a decade of going around I learned to appreciate more someone opening their doors to let me have a shower and then go. I prefer to stay outdoors so long I find a place where i can have a restful sleep. Staying indoors is great, but I rather busk some money and pay a hostel nowadays that go trough strangers, specially since it has become easier for me to get some cash out of the streets than meet and convince strangers that im not the devil.
> Dont get me wrong, I still would prefer to meet good strangers and receive their hospitality, and that still happens, just not so often (as people like that are rare). I have met some amazing people that hosted me at their homes and we both made it into a great experience (some of them are great friends of mine now). but mainly its been with the type that you generally describe as wealthy and uncomfortable of your presence. And there's nothing wrong with them really, I mean, they managed to open the door for you and thats a big thing for most people in current society. problem is that their efforts fall short if you stay longer than a night. If i get that kind of offer, I would ask for a shower, maybe wash some clothes, sleep well for a night and then go away early so i can fix whatever needs to be fixed to not need another night like that. problems usually start when you stay longer, and if you are observant you can figure out the type every time and decide based on that.


Yes that is basically what is my experience. I need to just not unpack all my shit or be packed before I go to sleep as to not over stay because truly it does accidentally happen


----------



## THE REAL SCAVENGER (Jan 3, 2019)

T Paradise said:


> Do you think the people of category one don't share enough of their possessions with you, even though they housed you up?
> The question is how radical the beliefs of the street kid are.


As for my radically beliefs I'm into socialism and anarcho communism, probably the same as you considering your picture


----------



## warlo (Jan 3, 2019)

gotta be careful going around the world thinking that because you are socialist everybody else ought to give you stuff just like that. also, that's not how socialism works, in order to receive you should give the share amount that most able people give. That works like my example on your other post, where i said that kinda belief fades away when you try and get a community working and bums move in and say "long live anarchy ill do whatever the fuck i want to do" or in your case "im a socialist so you should house me, feed me and some other stuff even though you just met me and I have not given you anything of value "

One of my core beliefs that kept me mostly out of troubles and clashes with society is that nobody owes me shit but respect, same applies for me towards them.


----------



## warlo (Jan 3, 2019)

Just to be clear. I think its awesome that you come to this forum (or any other) and vent your frustrations in front of people with a similar lifestyle than yours. specially cause it seems you are venturing into this world. so keep at it. but if you allow me to give you advice, keep up with the philosophy part where you question stuff but try stay neutral and humble. dont get to conclusions just yet. give it a couple years before you convince yourself that dividing society into two subgroups is doable (i.e. wealthy and shitty vs poor and nice), cause that is nowhere near reality. You gotta be the one asking people opening their doors and then be the one opening your own doors to strangers for a long while with all sorts of people in all sorts of cultures before closing up your judgement (assuming thats possible at all). 

You (and anybody if I may) should be aware that the human brain is constantly trying to find the shortest and easiest pattern to move on to new thoughts and ideas about the world around you. So beware of how fast and easily you can make up your mind about people/society and challenge that or your life as a traveler is gonna fold and close ahead of you pretty quickly.


----------



## THE REAL SCAVENGER (Jan 4, 2019)

warlo said:


> gotta be careful going around the world thinking that because you are socialist everybody else ought to give you stuff just like that. also, that's not how socialism works, in order to receive you should give the share amount that most able people give. That works like my example on your other post, where i said that kinda belief fades away when you try and get a community working and bums move in and say "long live anarchy ill do whatever the fuck i want to do" or in your case "im a socialist so you should house me, feed me and some other stuff even though you just met me and I have not given you anything of value "
> 
> One of my core beliefs that kept me mostly out of troubles and clashes with society is that nobody owes me shit but respect, same applies for me towards them.


Hey dawg I know we live in capitalism and yeah I know lmao


----------



## THE REAL SCAVENGER (Jan 4, 2019)

warlo said:


> gotta be careful going around the world thinking that because you are socialist everybody else ought to give you stuff just like that. also, that's not how socialism works, in order to receive you should give the share amount that most able people give. That works like my example on your other post, where i said that kinda belief fades away when you try and get a community working and bums move in and say "long live anarchy ill do whatever the fuck i want to do" or in your case "im a socialist so you should house me, feed me and some other stuff even though you just met me and I have not given you anything of value "
> 
> One of my core beliefs that kept me mostly out of troubles and clashes with society is that nobody owes me shit but respect, same applies for me towards them.


Also quite truly, I am not kid. I have done a lot of disaster relif, food not bombs, bicycle voulenter work, whatever. I know you are telling me this because youdont know me and I could be anyone. But I also want people to know who I am and if you need help with anything I will help you.


----------



## Matt Derrick (Jan 4, 2019)

warlo said:


> Just to be clear. I think its awesome that you come to this forum (or any other) and vent your frustrations in front of people with a similar lifestyle than yours.



i agree and @THE REAL SCAVENGER the fact that you're smart enough to self-evaluate and question yourself shows that you're a person of good character in my opinion. I was going to add some advice of my own, but to be honest, i think @highwayman and @warlo have already covered everything i was going to say.

so anyways, i think you're in a good spot, just try to be conscious of your impact, especially with group #1.


----------



## THE REAL SCAVENGER (Jan 4, 2019)

Matt Derrick said:


> i agree and @THE REAL SCAVENGER the fact that you're smart enough to self-evaluate and question yourself shows that you're a person of good character in my opinion. I was going to add some advice of my own, but to be honest, i think @highwayman and @warlo have already covered everything i was going to say.
> 
> so anyways, i think you're in a good spot, just try to be conscious of your impact, especially with group #1.


Thanks dude I appreciate that a lot


----------



## All Who Wander (Jan 5, 2019)

I agree w warlo, anytime you start a convo with "there are two kinds of people in this world..." you start off wrong. There are an infinite number of kinds of people in this world. Gross generalization is always flawed. But given the premise... 

why is "sharing" considered a virtue? I have been rich, and poor and homeless. One thing I always agreed with after reading "Atlas Shrugged" is that man's greatest virtue is selfeshness. 

Hear me out... why do we help those less fortunate than ourselves? Out of empathy? Sure, but mainly to make ourselves feel good. There is no charitable act or self sacrifice you can perform without receiving something in return even if the return is just smug satisfaction. 

Selfeshness is why we do everything that we do. If we share its only so that we recieve benifit. If someone does not feel sharing with you will give them the benifit they want, they are not wrong to refuse to share with you.


----------



## T Paradise (Jan 5, 2019)

All Who Wander said:


> If someone does not feel sharing with you will give them the benifit they want, they are not wrong to refuse to share with you.


If someone is not giving something of his food to a poor starving kid, he is not wrong, as long as he wouldn't get any pleasure from helping the kid? Interesting point of view.


----------



## warlo (Jan 5, 2019)

All Who Wander said:


> I agree w warlo, anytime you start a convo with "there are two kinds of people in this world..." you start off wrong. There are an infinite number of kinds of people in this world. Gross generalization is always flawed. But given the premise...
> 
> why is "sharing" considered a virtue? I have been rich, and poor and homeless. One thing I always agreed with after reading "Atlas Shrugged" is that man's greatest virtue is selfeshness.
> 
> ...



All the Rand followers keep on saying that the way they are is the way the whole world is... I dont mind if a bunch of people go around saying they dont want to share anything cause they are selfish and if they do it would be for selfish reasons, but i do mind them trying to mask it by saying the whole world is like that. 

Out of such people came game theory and look at the state of the world we are in (which is strictly founded upon game theory). funny enough a very important branch of game theory came off the mind of someone diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia (check John Nash and Nash Equilibrium theory) who was approved by game theorist immediately and thought stuff on the lines of Ayn Rand, who in my view was quite eccentric and crazy (its all in the eyes and the stories of her close circle of people), so not the combo you want to read from and draw conclusions on the whole world.

One of the greatest comebacks of game theory is that when observing human interactions, not only they instinctively share and cooperate but they do for no clear or apparent reason. some may do it for selfish reasons, some may do it for many different other reasons. 

So, in a way, you are doing not just something similar than OP, who said that the world is divided in two classes, but something worst that is to say that the whole world is the same (selfish acting individuals).


----------



## T Paradise (Jan 5, 2019)

warlo said:


> All the Rand followers keep on saying that the way they are is the way the whole world is... I dont mind if a bunch of people go around saying they dont want to share anything cause they are selfish and if they do it would be for selfish reasons, but i do mind them trying to mask it by saying the whole world is like that.
> 
> Out of such people came game theory and look at the state of the world we are in (which is strictly founded upon game theory). funny enough a very important branch of game theory came off the mind of someone diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia (check John Nash and Nash Equilibrium theory) who was approved by game theorist immediately and thought stuff on the lines of Ayn Rand, who in my view was quite eccentric and crazy (its all in the eyes and the stories of her close circle of people), so not the combo you want to read from and draw conclusions on the whole world.
> 
> ...


What bad did game theory bring upon the world in your opinion?
Game theory presupposes selfish agents, but those agents aren't necessarily selfish as the word is commonly understood. It only means that they act in accordance with their desires. Those desires can be anything, also helping others etc.
Also you say that humans usually cooperate, for no obvious reason. Some for selfish reasons, some maybe for completely other reasons. I don't know if I understand the use of "comeback" here (not a native speaker), but I guess you seem to take that as an argument against game theory? If so there is descriptive and normative game theory (or decision theory). Descriptive game theory should consider every reason why humans act as they do, if people cooperate for non-selfish reasons that is not a problem at all for descriptive game theory. 
Normative game theory on the other hand is not concerned with how people actually act and for what reasons. It is only concerned with how they should rationally act. If people cooperate for non-selfish reasons that's not a problem for normative decision theory either. 

Accepting that one is selfish and not doing charitable acts, because they would ultimately be selfish is a stupid reasoning obviously.


----------



## Coywolf (Jan 5, 2019)

-"looking out for yourself" and "I've got mine, why cant you get yours?" Are not hand-in-hand beliefs. I always look out for myself first. But you'd better believe I will help someone in need whenever I "can" and that "can" is definitely dependent on multiple factors.

-noone is EVER obligated to share with you. EVER. unless you have given much to them, and they refuse to give back. Entitlement is something we should all get away from

These are two main factors driving the division of this country. People who feel they alone should reap the benefit of their labors (or inheritance, or trust funds...), and people who believe they are entitled to what everyone else has acquired.

Neither is correct. A compromise is in order, and until we figure this out, we are doomed to repeat history.


----------



## warlo (Jan 5, 2019)

T Paradise said:


> What bad did game theory bring upon the world in your opinion?
> Game theory presupposes selfish agents, but those agents aren't necessarily selfish as the word is commonly understood. It only means that they act in accordance with their desires. Those desires can be anything, also helping others etc.
> Also you say that humans usually cooperate, for no obvious reason. Some for selfish reasons, some maybe for completely other reasons. I don't know if I understand the use of "comeback" here (not a native speaker), but I guess you seem to take that as an argument against game theory? If so there is descriptive and normative game theory (or decision theory). Descriptive game theory should consider every reason why humans act as they do, if people cooperate for non-selfish reasons that is not a problem at all for descriptive game theory.
> Normative game theory on the other hand is not concerned with how people actually act and for what reasons. It is only concerned with how they should rationally act. If people cooperate for non-selfish reasons that's not a problem for normative decision theory either.
> ...



Check out John Nash's theories. Game Theory might be all you say, but the ideas that built this world by the end of the XX century was Nash's and Ayn Rand type game theory. Both insisted upon the notion that humans have no sharing nature and that all we do is competing with each other.

If you want a better explanation of what I mean, check this series of documentaries


----------



## croc (Jan 5, 2019)

Something I want to add that i didn't see anyone blatantly say yet is that if you ask directly "when should I head out?" there's no room for miscommunication. If they're given the opportunity to draw a line and don't (maybe they're trying to be "polite") then that's on them and not ur fault. 
And when someone houses me up, I ask before I use anything that hasn't specifically offered. Again, no room for miscommunication or someone feeling disrespected. 
I'm the kind of person that will share most things I have with anyone who isn't a dick if it doesn't leave me without. (like someone can't use my jacket if I need it bc it's cold out but they didn't pack one kinda thing. But I'll help them however I can to obtain their own jacket). And I feel disrespected when someone uses my stuff without asking unless I've already said "go ahead n use that when u want". Personally, it comes from having a sibling who would use my shit/break my shit/use the end of my shit without asking or caring that it wasn't his to use.
But I know a lot of people like u who would give someone the shirt of your back without hesitation. I think that's wicked admirable but most people aren't like that and we can't expect them to be.
You're definitely a respectful person from everything I know of u, and we've been friends for over a year now (speaking of which, ain't that cool?). I don't think it's a matter of disrespect but maybe not having put enough consideration into how someone else might function differently or why they do.
You're great and I admire the heck out of your desire to learn and grow and call yourself out and apologize when need be. 
<3


----------



## All Who Wander (Jan 5, 2019)

There are only two reasons humans take any action. 
1. To avoid pain. 
2. To gain pleasure. 

Both reasons are selfesh. 
Please describe any action a human might take that could not be attributed to one of these two reasons.


----------



## warlo (Jan 6, 2019)

All Who Wander said:


> There are only two reasons humans take any action.
> 1. To avoid pain.
> 2. To gain pleasure.
> 
> ...




Ill first proceed to answer your question with a quote from you:

<quote>
"I agree w warlo, anytime you start a convo with "there are two kinds of people in this world..." you start off wrong. There are an infinite number of kinds of people in this world. *Gross generalization is always flawed*. But given the premise... "
<endquote>

Then I'll proceed to answer, again, with another question:

What pleasure or avoidance of pain do I get from answering to you?

Now, since its a rhetorical question, I'll answer it myself: none of both. I'm not in pain --although my arm kinda hurts lately but I dont engage in online conversations to avoid it, I stretch and take painkillers instead-- and I definitively dont derive pleasure from this conversation. if pleasure was my ultimate goal now I'd eat some of the leftover pizza and drink some of the wine I have and keep on watching a very *pleasant *documentary I just paused before going to pee and finding out that you answered to this post. In fact, just to prove you're oversimplifying, I dont even know what do I get from answering to you. For sure Im delaying pleasure and gratification by keeping the doc paused, the wine un-drinked and the pizza un-eaten and im maximizing the pain that I know comes from extensive typing and computer usage in the last couple weeks of my life. So should you add a third option to your list, a fourth? or maybe just get rid of such horrible simplicity? 

does that answer your question?

Allow me to quote you again:

*Gross generalization is always flawed*


----------



## T Paradise (Jan 6, 2019)

warlo said:


> Check out John Nash's theories. Game Theory might be all you say, but the ideas that built this world by the end of the XX century was Nash's and Ayn Rand type game theory. Both insisted upon the notion that humans have no sharing nature and that all we do is competing with each other.
> 
> If you want a better explanation of what I mean, check this series of documentaries


I am familiar with Nash's theory. Nash's Equilibrium describes a state that holds in non-cooperative game theory, this theory presupposes the "notion that humans have no sharing nature and that all [they] do is competing with each other." _for this game_. It's not like there isn't cooperative game theory, where the agents can operate (even though they still cooperate to fulfill their own desires).
As far as I can tell Nash's theory makes no assumptions about how people act, it only provides a rational solution to specific problems. I will watch the series you linked once I get the time though. So far I only watched the first 20min. There it is once again said that people cooperate instead of acting selfish, with the example of the prisoners dilemma. But that is not a problem at all for decision theory. It just shows that people don't act rational, if the dilemma was properly introduced, or that they have more desires than simply reducing their prison time, if not properly introduced.


----------



## All Who Wander (Jan 6, 2019)

warlo said:


> Ill first proceed to answer your question with a quote from you:
> 
> <quote>
> "I agree w warlo, anytime you start a convo with "there are two kinds of people in this world..." you start off wrong. There are an infinite number of kinds of people in this world. *Gross generalization is always flawed*. But given the premise... "
> ...



Just full of fail.


----------



## croc (Jan 6, 2019)

All Who Wander said:


> There are only two reasons humans take any action.
> 1. To avoid pain.
> 2. To gain pleasure.
> 
> ...




.... You've never just done anything that wasn't fun bc it was the right thing to do??
A few months ago I helped one of my best friends pack and move even though I felt awful that day mentally, had little sleep, and a bunch of my own shit to do as well. It wasn't to feel good about it, it was because she's been my ride or die for years and years and she'd do that and a million other things for me at any point in time. It was incredibly taxing on me. 
Not everything is selfishly motivated.


----------



## All Who Wander (Jan 6, 2019)

croc said:


> .... You've never just done anything that wasn't fun bc it was the right thing to do??
> A few months ago I helped one of my best friends pack and move even though I felt awful that day mentally, had little sleep, and a bunch of my own shit to do as well. It wasn't to feel good about it, it was because she's been my ride or die for years and years and she'd do that and a million other things for me at any point in time. It was incredibly taxing on me.
> Not everything is selfishly motivated.



You clearly feel very good about what you did. The pleasure of doing right by your ride or die, of fufilling a sense of honor was worth the pain of enduring sleeplessness, physical and emotional discomfort, etc. If anything, pushing through those difficulties just makes your self satisfaction and pleasurable feelings about your sacrifice and dedication all the stronger. 

Then theres the reciprocity angle. Shes always been there for you when you needed her. If you dont push aside your pain and discomfort to help her... she might not be so enthusiastic for helping you in the future. How much do you value the security of knowing this person will likely show up to help you if you really need it? A lot I'd bet, you'd probably do almost anything to avoid loosing that feeling. 

Sorry, the actions you took were extremely charitable though completely motivated by selfeshness, but selfeshness isn't a bad or negitive thing.


----------



## warlo (Jan 6, 2019)

All Who Wander said:


> Just full of fail.



yeah, totally. Its a big fail when someone says generalization sucks and then goes to generalize like a pro. Glad we agree on that one


----------



## warlo (Jan 6, 2019)

All Who Wander said:


> You clearly feel very good about what you did. The pleasure of doing right by your ride or die, of fufilling a sense of honor was worth the pain of enduring sleeplessness, physical and emotional discomfort, etc. If anything, pushing through those difficulties just makes your self satisfaction and pleasurable feelings about your sacrifice and dedication all the stronger.
> 
> Then theres the reciprocity angle. Shes always been there for you when you needed her. If you dont push aside your pain and discomfort to help her... she might not be so enthusiastic for helping you in the future. How much do you value the security of knowing this person will likely show up to help you if you really need it? A lot I'd bet, you'd probably do almost anything to avoid loosing that feeling.
> 
> Sorry, the actions you took were extremely charitable though completely motivated by selfeshness, but selfeshness isn't a bad or negitive thing.



We got Freud in the house!

Look man, if all you do is for selfish reasons, thats ok. be as selfish as you want. im not surprised there's people that think the way you do. if you're gonna be selfish, be it, but dont go around trying to mask your shame by saying we all act the way you do. In my opinion, if you can reduce all your actions to avoidance of pain and attainment of pleasure, then you need a bit more experience in life, cause there's a lot of selfless action in this world.


----------



## warlo (Jan 6, 2019)

All Who Wander said:


> Just full of fail.




Also, you might wanna study this a bit so you can get your head out of the bucket for a moment, otherwise you'll never see outside your own ideas.


----------



## BusGypsy (Jan 6, 2019)

croc said:


> Something I want to add that i didn't see anyone blatantly say yet is that if you ask directly "when should I head out?" there's no room for miscommunication. If they're given the opportunity to draw a line and don't (maybe they're trying to be "polite") then that's on them and not ur fault.
> And when someone houses me up, I ask before I use anything that hasn't specifically offered. Again, no room for miscommunication or someone feeling disrespected.
> I'm the kind of person that will share most things I have with anyone who isn't a dick if it doesn't leave me without. (like someone can't use my jacket if I need it bc it's cold out but they didn't pack one kinda thing. But I'll help them however I can to obtain their own jacket). And I feel disrespected when someone uses my stuff without asking unless I've already said "go ahead n use that when u want". Personally, it comes from having a sibling who would use my shit/break my shit/use the end of my shit without asking or caring that it wasn't his to use.
> But I know a lot of people like u who would give someone the shirt of your back without hesitation. I think that's wicked admirable but most people aren't like that and we can't expect them to be.
> ...


This. It's so important and helpful to establish expectations and boundaries.
How long can I stay?
What may I eat/use?
How can I help?

Of course it isn't fair to crash at someone's place indefinitely.... of course eventually they're gonna want their personal space back.


----------



## All Who Wander (Jan 6, 2019)

warlo said:


> We got Freud in the house!
> 
> Look man, if all you do is for selfish reasons, thats ok. be as selfish as you want. im not surprised there's people that think the way you do. if you're gonna be selfish, be it, but dont go around trying to mask your shame by saying we all act the way you do. In my opinion, if you can reduce all your actions to avoidance of pain and attainment of pleasure, then you need a bit more experience in life, cause there's a lot of selfless action in this world.



There is no such thing as a selfless action. None. Every action you take benifits you in some way. Just like there is no such thing as true altruism. Even if you annonymously gave all your money to some needy guy and didnt tell anyone about it ever, you'd still feel good about it. You'd still recieve reward. 

And thats just it... if your really honest, you dont need to feel shame or guilt. If I do something charitable, I know im really doing it for myself. I dont sit around thinking "oh clearly i'm a much better and more giving person than those selfesh hording bastards! I have... a heart... of gold..." 

It also stops the bs reciprocity fantasy "HEY! I gave food to people when they were hungry... so now somebody should be giving food to me! Im owed damnit!' 

Just accept the truth... your no more "selfless" than anybody else. Or reject it and explain why your so much better and more special than everyone else. How did you become so saint like?


----------



## All Who Wander (Jan 6, 2019)

warlo said:


> Also, you might wanna study this a bit so you can get your head out of the bucket for a moment, otherwise you'll never see outside your own ideas.



Great wiki, read it all. But I think you need to go re-read it. Reductionism can be beneficial and does not in itself create fallacy. Example: All matter is made of energy and non energy. Completely true and completely reductionist.


----------



## warlo (Jan 7, 2019)

All Who Wander said:


> There is no such thing as a selfless action. None. Every action you take benifits you in some way. Just like there is no such thing as true altruism. Even if you annonymously gave all your money to some needy guy and didnt tell anyone about it ever, you'd still feel good about it. You'd still recieve reward.
> 
> And thats just it... if your really honest, you dont need to feel shame or guilt. If I do something charitable, I know im really doing it for myself. I dont sit around thinking "oh clearly i'm a much better and more giving person than those selfesh hording bastards! I have... a heart... of gold..."
> 
> ...



You go fallacy after fallacy. first, your comparison about matter being conformed of energy and any example of the sort is invalid, cause that is a* scientific fact*. what you are saying doesn't even borders with science, it belongs to the *philosophical world of ideas.* When you reduce based on facts, its *unquestionably good*, not because of the reducing but because its based on *scientifically proven facts*, but when you reduce in thought its only *mere speculation*, so be like any decent philosophy student and propose ideas* for the sake of argument*, *expansion of knowledge and hope to get closer to the truth*, not to look like you are a fact driven scientist of philosophy (as if such thing exists) figuring out the universe.

You are making the mistake of first saying we are all selfish because *knowingly all we do is because it will help us avoid pain and gain pleasure *and then when somebody says "_Wait, I dont know why i did this, it made me uncomfortable even though I knew it would, I was exhausted so I would rather have done something else but I still did and it made me feel like shit afterwards_" (which ends your argument) you switch your premise to something like "_yeah, but then 3 months later you feel good about it when thinking in retrospective_" *so now its not why we do things but what we derive from them whether we are aware of them to begin with or not*... also, acting *like you know what people feel, think and what happens to all of humanity since the dawn of history till today *which by the way its a hideous thing to go around doing (it shows that you believe yourself a superior omnipotent genius). So if somebody tells you that they ddint feel good afterwards what you gonna do? call them liars cause you know better than themselves how they feel? or say that eventually or somehow its gonna give them pleasure or pain avoidance? *thats what you do, put out a premise and change it when it fails and if it fails again attack the people that proven you to be wrong. *which makes you fallacious and a sophist

It's great to do some far out philosophy as a mental exercise and play with ideas, like yours for example. but when you end up believing yourself to have figured it all out and you are nothing but a stranger in a tiny forum on the internet its annoying. Nobody, so far, has figured out anything trough philosophy. cause *its not a science*! so, if you feel that *your ideas explain your behavior and guide your life for the better*, go ahead! I love to discuss philosophy with people like that, but find it extremely annoying when I meet the "I figured y'all out assholes!" because, well, cause its just annoying.

I have a ton of situations in my life where i put myself consciously that ended up draining me, causing me pain and annoyance and i cant derive any pleasure nor i believe I will anytime in the future, some of them i made repeatedly. sometimes for a reason even knowing what would come afterwards, sometimes for no reason that i can think off. It drives me mad and its something I pay close attention to in my life because it puzzles me. so what you say about that? am i so special that i broke the rules of your universe? I dont think so, I believe it to be very common.

Id say *get off your high horse*, study more and go out and experience more. *get your head out of the box you put it on when you thought you figured it all out*. you are *not a genius who figured it all out*, be humble. geniuses who get close to that sort of truth are humble when presenting their ideas and dont come and argue their thesis in a forum with some scumbag like me, they write books and give lectures, and somethings tells me that you are not the type that ends up in the pages of history.

and by the way, pretty lame ad hominem in your last comment, learn to think and argue properly. Arguing endlessly about such subjects should be enjoyable, your *lack of humbleness *ruins any hope for it.

now my hand hurts and im annoyed, am I supposed to derive some sort of pleasure or pain avoidance based on this argument? Im pretty sure it will not, and I knew that from the first time I decided to argue with you. If that's not a good example then simply stop this.


----------



## All Who Wander (Jan 7, 2019)

ugg god I wanna write "just full of fail" here too, because just like the other one you start out wrong, then go wrong for a long time, and I just don't want to spend all that time picking apart a broken argument... but you're kind of demanding it so...

1) he did not say he did not know why he did it, he said very clearly she had always been there for him in the past so the selfish motivation was very clear. all the points you make following that line of reasoning are off.
2) I never switched my premise, and it didn't fail. Any action you take is motivated by avoiding pain or gaining pleasure. I never said there was a time limit (three months? where did you get that?)
3) philosophy is not a science... but psychology sure is and it deals directly with human motivation to action. You may disagree with my modality but it does not make it false.

lastly... the one thing you really hit on here... when you don't understand why you took an action it confuses you. yep, and those are the actions most interesting to therapists.

example of transference (and this really blows me away...) woman gets molested when she's 5. 25 yr old mom sweeps it under the rug tells her it didn't happen. later the woman is in her 20's she meets a great guy, marries him and has a daughter. 5 years later she cant stop picking fights with him and gets a divorce. then brings home a series of really terrible dudes until somebody molests her 5 year old daughter. she treats her daughter completely differently than her mother treated her. later she has no idea why she picked fights with her great guy ex husband, or why she dated such scumbags and brought them home.

she never dealt with the negative emotions of her molestation, or the anger towards her mother. subconsciously she's been being pushed to deal with those emotions ever since. she took actions she could not explain but through my premise you can see why. she did this exactly at her daughters age when she herself was molested. It brought her pleasure to comfort her daughter, allowed her the chance to deal with the emotions she never dealt with previously, and allowed her to establish herself as a good mom and not a terrible mom like her's was.

the worst thing about all this... it happens all the time.

I'm not saying the reasons people do things are rational, or even that they themselves know the real reasons why, but given time you can almost always find those reasons even if they are really screwed up subconscious ways of gaining pleasure or avoiding pain. 

So no you did not break the premise or my universe. We just need to ask bigger deeper questions to better understand why you do things that you don't think bring you pleasure or avoid pain. I'm sorry but our time is up, please make your next appointment with the receptionist. (lol)

ok look... I spent 12 years working with dual diagnosed adolescents all over. I've had a hell of a lot of experiences. I really need less and not more. There are some things I figured out for myself over those 12 years that help "me" understand humans and human interactions better. so for "me" those things I figured out is over and done. They have been proven true so many times for me I do not question them.

Though I have hundreds, here's a couple more just if your interested.

All communication is relationship defining. 
Nobody goes to God when they are happy.
The goal of a good life is to live without regret.


----------



## T Paradise (Jan 7, 2019)

There is also the question what qualifies as an action, under on common theory, I believe it is suggested that an agents have desires and beliefs and agents have to believe that what they are doing is an end to achieve their desire, for something to qualify as an action. Well something along those lines at least, it's been a while that I studied philosophy of action. Under this model there is an element of pleasure in every action.
In @Waldo case, there was no desire apparently. This seems dubious to me on one hand, on the other hand I can't say that I haven't felt the same in some situations. Maybe the solution is simply that we didn't consciously act, but did things more in a reflex like manner, ultimately.
But as so often with philosophical questions, in the end we probably won't be any more knowledgeable if we analyse this further, at best we have a clearer language about things we intuitively all know already.

Edit: I wrote @Waldo in this post, but meant @warlo. Sry, I am in the middle of one of those sleepless nights at the airport to save the cost for a hostel for one night.


----------



## warlo (Jan 7, 2019)

All Who Wander said:


> but given time you can *almost *always find those reasons



There you go, gotcha. have a nice day.


----------



## warlo (Jan 7, 2019)

also "I spent 12 years working with dual diagnosed adolescents all over. I've had a hell of a lot of experiences", maybe next time you wanna try and generalize over the whole world you want a bigger and less messed up sample size.

"Nobody goes to God when they are happy." really? most religious freaks cant stop talking about god when good shit happens to them. 

Seriously, all you say would be perfectly fine and acceptable so long as you take it inwards and deal with it as a manner of self improvement cause that's what you got in front of you. but you have to stop thinking that because of your personal limited experience says something about a tiny portion of the universe you got it all figured out.


----------



## warlo (Jan 7, 2019)

And you may wanna go and prove psycology is a science. that is a great debate. if you are so sure about it why dont you write a paper, submit it and get a nobel prize. seriously, get off your high horse.


Edit: im unsure whether it is or isnt, I have great respect for psycology but Im, like you, nobody to go around saying it for fact


----------



## croc (Jan 9, 2019)

All Who Wander said:


> You clearly feel very good about what you did. The pleasure of doing right by your ride or die, of fufilling a sense of honor was worth the pain of enduring sleeplessness, physical and emotional discomfort, etc. If anything, pushing through those difficulties just makes your self satisfaction and pleasurable feelings about your sacrifice and dedication all the stronger.
> 
> Then theres the reciprocity angle. Shes always been there for you when you needed her. If you dont push aside your pain and discomfort to help her... she might not be so enthusiastic for helping you in the future. How much do you value the security of knowing this person will likely show up to help you if you really need it? A lot I'd bet, you'd probably do almost anything to avoid loosing that feeling.
> 
> Sorry, the actions you took were extremely charitable though completely motivated by selfeshness, but selfeshness isn't a bad or negitive thing.



It just feels like that's a lot to assume of someone else's brain when all we can speak for is ourselves and how our own brains function. 
She'd have forgiven me without hesitation and still be there for me 100%. She's that kind of friend. And I've have forgiven myself for not if I really felt like I couldn't do it.
Sounds like you're speaking of the way your own mind functions


----------



## warlo (Jan 11, 2019)

T Paradise said:


> Edit: I wrote @Waldo in this post, but meant @warlo. Sry, I am in the middle of one of those sleepless nights at the airport to save the cost for a hostel for one night.



hehe, no problem, I found it really funny


----------



## roughdraft (Jan 11, 2019)

croc said:


> Something I want to add that i didn't see anyone blatantly say yet is that if you ask directly "when should I head out?" there's no room for miscommunication. If they're given the opportunity to draw a line and don't (maybe they're trying to be "polite") then that's on them and not ur fault.
> And when someone houses me up, I ask before I use anything that hasn't specifically offered. Again, no room for miscommunication or someone feeling disrespected.



to me this is the biggest point stated

why should it be so tough on us as people to embrace direct communication?

also @warlo you are platinum grade badass dude *salute


----------



## BusGypsy (Jan 13, 2019)

roughdraft said:


> to me this is the biggest point stated
> 
> why should it be so tough on us as people to embrace direct communication?
> 
> also @warlo you are platinum grade badass dude *salute



Yep. Whenever staying at someone's place. Establish expectations. have a house meeting. that way there's no surprises later on.


----------

