# Smart Criminals.



## Mankini

Pondering questions of legality, illegality, the ''justice system'', and US crime statistics after reading "The New Jim Crow":

http://newjimcrow.com/

Smart criminals don't get caught. People talk alot about legailizing drugs, controlling guns, etc.

But isnt all that meaningless if you are smart about your drug use and gun ownership?

And along those lines, if you are arrested for drug or gun related activity, doesnt that mean you were stupid and thus got caught? Being discreet: If I want cocaine, I go get the cocaine, from a friend and NOT some random who may or may not be an undercover. Then i go somewhere private and snort it. So how are the prisons full of drug offenders? Is it perhaps that they just arent smart enough to buy and consume their drugs with a little common sense? Are the prisons full of imbeciles? _And is the modern criminal justice system, like Michelle Alexander implies without realizing, a sort of Social Darwinism?_

I argue constantly with conservatives who believe in the 2nd amendment. First off the govt will do what it wants to you. There is no real protection, constitutional or otherwise. People get arrested with unlicensed saturday nite specials every minute of every day. But for me, no cop has ever seen my collection and they dont know i have it because i buy from private sellers....

How difficult is it really, to carry your drugs and weapons somewhere not liable to search by the pigz?!!

Conclusion: The prisons are full of people too stupid to not get caught. And perhaps if theyre that stupid they belong there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism#Criticism_and_controversy

99.99999% of recidivists are illiterate. 99% have no high school diploma. Now is that a cause of criminality or a result? Why is there a generational, ignorant, criminal underclass? These are questions Alexander and belle hooks cant answer.

http://racism.org/index.php?option=...rty&catid=56&Itemid=179&showall=&limitstart=1


https://web.stanford.edu/class/e297c/poverty_prejudice/soc_sec/hview.htm


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## wizehop

Man getting busted for something isn't always as simple as being stupid. Besides a lot of the times it turns out the people that where trusted/friends/allies turn on you in order to save there own ass, and so forth.

I wouldn't even know where to begin on this one...


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## Mankini

I think if youre slick and play the game like a fox, 9 times out of 10 you should be okay and die an old man in his bed, never having seen the inside of a courtroom.....But I dont know. Hoping people can help me find Enlightenment on this one.


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## wizehop

voodoochile76 said:


> I think if youre slick and play the game like a fox, 9 times out of 10 you should be okay and die an old man in his bed, never having seen the inside of a courtroom.....But I dont know. Hoping people can help me find Enlightenment on this one.




I don't know man, Id say you haven't even lived unless you've seen a court room at least once or twice. Im not even joking.

I think your looking at things too black and white here. Life isn't that simple


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## Mankini

Elaborate, Elaborate!, please! If you dont mind.


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## psychofoamer

It's not that simple. Sometimes you're just suddenly talking to the cops for random shit. And then boom! You're in handcuffs and they are rummaging through all your shit and then they find your stash. Additional charges ensue. 

When I got a pot charge years ago, it wasn't even my fault. It's a long story but suddenly the cops were kicking in the door of my house cuz of some shit my housemates had done. I got charged with what was in my room. Sucks but that's how it went down


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## Mankini

The thing is, the cops are stupid, too. Easy to foil if you keep yer witz about you....For instance, a few years ago I was at the Monterey Jazz Festival as a security guy....Bourgeois were there tokin away like mad, in full view of everyone.....but..._they were using little ''one hitters'' that look exactly like cigs._..

weed isnt weed; its ''oregano''. Coke isnt ''coke'' if its in a baking soda box...Guns arent found if theyre carbon fiber and stored discreetly.

http://www.christensenarms.com/

The TSA guards airports....But what of private airfields? Theyre Idiots!!! See what I mean? Wanna run RPGs and 1000 kgs of Semtex? easy. if you have access to a piper cub. Now imagine the possibilities if you charter a 727...

The majority of illicit trading occurs in Long Beach and the other harbors. Thats right, the shipping and trans industry; not street level distributors. So the whole system is completely farcical and ludicrous. PS If you call them on this theyll say shipping is too hard to monitor. LOL

People cry about the NSA and CIA but if you use Tor, PGP, etc., its all meaningless.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Privacy_Guard

Anybody who uses cellphones in conjunction with their ''private affairs'' is also an idiot and deserves to be caught.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tor_(anonymity_network)


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## Durp

Idk man, I have a clean record but I think you are mashing this down too finely... I think there are a lot of unpredictable variables, like if you are porkin the da's daughter and he likes you, files tend to "disappear."


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## Mankini

They arent allowed to get one roommate for something another roommate has done, or search a roommate's room when their warrant is for another roommate.

Its some SCOTUS decision but i've forgotten which one.


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## psychofoamer

No they weren't quite sure what was going down inside the house so they just fucked everybody. Long, complex story involving organized crime, LSD, a mail package, the DEA, a snitch housemate, oh man what fucked time of my life


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## Mankini

A year ago, I was stopped by National Park pigs after a ''citizen'' reported me for making coffee near an educational center for kids....I toyed with him for a bit, accused the citizenry of media-induced paranoia; and then asked if he had probable cause and mentioned my ''law school'' education...

LOL Theyre idiots. The system is used to dealing with numbfucks who buckle to their bullying and take plea agreements, etc.

Read up on SCOTUS decisions and scare piggies and DAs alike. All in a days work.

Example of smart ones who just got greedy and reckless in the end:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_Scurlock

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Blanchard

But see even these two were not thinking far enough outside the box. Money is just binary data. So create that binary data and manipulate it. NOT F--ING Rocket Science.


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## Kim Chee

I read "smart criminals don't get caught" and stopped reading.

Did you know that the smartest person in Jail is NEVER the warden, jailer or even a visiting attorney? 

Did you know that there are a lot of stupid cops who don't get jailed because of their brotherhood of criminal, ass covering, code following, spineless invertebrates?


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## Mankini

Please see what i've written. This is more a diatribe on the roots of social inequality than a primer on efficient criminal techniques. lol


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## Kim Chee

voodoochile76 said:


> ?..99.99999% of recidivists are illiterate. 99% have no high school diploma.



The first statistic is bullshit.

The second is probably bullshit.


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## Mankini

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs94/94102.pdf


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## Kim Chee

voodoochile76 said:


> http://nces.ed.gov/pubs94/94102.pdf



That is a really long document.

The number provided is 1 in 100,000 literacy rate.

You can sift and sift Americans through the legal system.

...in this case multiple prison (not jail) tours, I'm guessing.

I just don't feel this is a correct statistic, something isn't right.


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## Mankini

I apologize. I just started a course in criminology and its got me riled up.

Consider Ken Lay, Martha Stewart, OJ Simpson, Dick Cheney...all exceptions to the rule. Why? Because they know how to play the Game.

Your average con is a sans-culotte who for whatever reason doesnt know to play the Game to his advantage.

What is a criminal? Is he morally bankrupt? Robin Hood? A sociopath? A Counterculture rebel?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enragés


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## Matt Derrick

when those who have never been to jail start telling others they're stupid for being there that's called class privilege.


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## Mankini

Again, refer to Martha Stewart, OJ, Ken Lay, etc. And what of the bankers who caused what happened in 2008? I'm not Zeus, mocking mortals from Olympus. But pointing out inequities.

Besides, how many elitists you know would read something called "The New Jim Crow", then discuss it online? lol

We make our beds, then we lie in them. I dont just blame the criminals, but the society which gave birth to them: the Germans who allowed the Nazis to exist were collaborators. The little guy is no less culpable than the main actors.

Consider the MP's at Abu Ghraib...In a war where state-sanctioned murder, torture, profiteering, etc was commonplace, only a few guys were ever prosecuted. Why? Because they were idiots. This has nothing to do with class.


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## Matt Derrick

voodoochile76 said:


> Again, refer to Martha Stewart, OJ, Ken Lay, etc. And what of the bankers who caused what happened in 2008? I'm not Zeus, mocking mortals from Olympus. But pointing out inequities.
> 
> Besides, how many elitists you know would read something called "The New Jim Crow", then discuss it online? lol
> 
> We make our beds, then we lie in them. I dont just blame the criminals, but the society which gave birth to them: the Germans who allowed the Nazis to exist were collaborators. The little guy is no less culpable than the main actors.



i'm really not understanding where you're trying to go with this whole thread, and when you post things like this i feel like it's more an attempt to muddle everyone with confusion rather than answer a question.


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## Mankini

What i was thinking about was the root causes of the current civil unrest in the cities....Why all the violence?

The only explanation i could come up with is stupidity. Why else would people tolerate the conditions that exist?

How else would you explain a society that imprisons some en masse while others get off with a warning?

Crime is like chess: You dont rob a liquor store if a bank is available: you wouldnt sacrifice your queen to take a pawn....

To do so would be......stupid.


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## Jaguwar

On the surface, I'll venture to say you are correct, generally speaking those in jail are "stupid", that is to say they did something either irrationally or at least with little common sense. 

On the flip side, it seems the vast majority of criminals are there on non violent dig crimes in the first place. For those charges, the fact is there doesn't have to be something "stupid", just a simple case of song page, wrong time, as in the story above. Remove those cases from the equation and we're talking apples to apples. Oh, and refine "statutory rape" cases, too, that's a muddled mess. 

People tolerate unsatisfactory conditions for a variety of reasons, from moral bankruptness of their own to laziness to a simple desire to just be left alone. In the latter case, if it doesn't directly or closely affect them, they refuse to get involved, because then they become subject to scrutiny. Can't day I blame them, really. 

Note that the stupidity isn't always about breaking the law in the first place. We all break the law in small ways (and sometimes not so small). That's because there are easy too many laws and, more importantly, too many STUPID laws. 

I suggest the real problem is split between stupid people in jail and the stupid people who put them there, by which I mean the ordinary citizen who encourages the passage of stupid laws, who sits on a jury, who elects the clowns so pass legislation, etc etc. 

Stupidity abounds. 

Sent using Tapatalk.


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## Deleted member 13433

recently, on another thread - there was a girl who was mentioning that she was with a guy who wanted to fly a sign, and she wanted him to do so elsewhere because she did not want her "not so legal" jeep to be taken from her, and she actually caught quite a bit of hell for this - whether warrented or not.

I jumped in and mentioned that yes, cars can be taken not because they did anything wrong but by virtue of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I mentioned about when I was in the fire dept [all volunteer out here] doing a boot drive fundraiser in a shopping center parking lot, I watched with interest the cops hasseling someone, then for whatever reason - they started looking at this parked car - I forget what it was - but they ran the plate, and a little while later it was taken to god knows where.

Did the car do anything wrong ?? I doubt it.
Did the owner do anything wrong ?? Possible.

Perhaps there was an issue with a lapse in insurance, or it's regestration expired - misuse of plates - who knows - but the point is - if the police were not dealing with this other party first, that car would have sat quietly unnoticed, and everything would have been cool.

So, the girls concern was valid in my opinion - because when the cops see something they don't like, all of a sudden - everything becomes suspicious - whether it is related or not.

This is a real good post and thread -as it really got me thinking.

Once in Brooklyn, in the late 1980s - I was strutting down 3rd ave, amaking the turn to go up 86th street.

This would be in Bay Ridge.

Bam !!
Two cops surrounded me.

I hid my quart of beer [no 40s back then] and the cops said "we don't care about that - we just want to see if you have something that could hurt someone"
So, incredible as this sounds - I said go ahead and search me, please - I said this with great concern too - and they did, and then they thanked me and went on their way.

Now - were the cops sic'ed on me because of some concerend citizen felt threatened by my then 6ft 7in 190 lb frame was decked out iwith mc boots, black pants and me leather ?? 

Possible.

But that ended on a good note.

More recently - last year, out here in East Derby - the cops showed up in the woods to find me and my dog finishing up a nice kayaking trip, we were relaxing at our base camp.... the cops - they asked if I saw anyone - real vague quiestion - and I replied no, then - truthfully I asked who were they looking for - because, I do see all kinds of people some I like some I don'r.

They mentioned someone living there - so that I had no answer to, but volunteered that my dog is not sensing anyone near by and we come here all the time.

The cops thanked me and split.

No, more recently - when the vermin who hang out at the boat launch decided that I had fallen from grace with all my river clean up and wildlife rescue work - and I was basically threatened - I never went back there again.

This goes with the "smart" aspect of what the original poster brought up.

Sometimes you just have to stay out of sight and fly under the radar - even if what one is doing is 100% legal - because trouble does still find you.

I actually lost my train of thought here as I am old and senile and am now more focused on taking my dog hiking - of interest, where we go is considered tresspassing - but it's the only place we can go wher ewe will not come across loose dogs, and since my dog has been attacked 2x already - I am now armed so there will not be a third time.

Once the cops rolled up on where I parked my jeep - which everyone recognizes as mine, not only because I still have my Fire Dept plate in the front - but also from all my volunteering in the city [river clean ups, wildlife rescue, etc... but still - shit, a cop running my plate....................

I said, hey that's mine... listen I was just out walking my dog here - I know it's private property that's been abandoned, but it's the only plave I can walk my dog and feel she will be safe.

Amazing as it may sound, the police officier felt my dog had a right to walk where she will be safe and not bothered - so I in turn asked - and received permission if I can hike there and it was granted on the spot.

What was that saying from The Godfather ??
Keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer ???
Something like that ???

There's some serious truth there - and also in the points the original poster here is bringing up.

Cheers everyone...........................


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## Jaguwar

For what it's worth, the police can't technically give your permission to do something on someone's else's property, all they can do is choose to turn a blind eye. 

You're right though, sometimes trouble just finds you. Some will argue that if you're being the law, then you're stupid. I don't agree. Great men before me have disagreed, too... But perhaps that's a different conversation. 

Sent using Tapatalk.


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## Deleted member 13433

real quick then I'm out and about - the human above makes an excellent point about permission..... last year [??] yeah, right before Christmas - there was an incident in the 'hood where neighbor #1's dog got loose and went down across my property to neighbor #2's house and what ever happened happened, as I was shooting skip with my 11 meter SSB gear at a place called Short Beach.

Ok, so I'm somewhat in the loop as to what happened as neighbor # 2's downstairs neighbor [neighbor # 3] filled me in.

I felt it was no big deal - until I was delivering a tray of Christmas cookies to neighbor # 1's house:

Her sister answers the door totally deadpan and asks me before I could even say Merry Christmas "Why did you call the cops on Henessy" 

I was like "Whoa... hold on sister...." and then Neighbor # 1 shows up gives me a big hug and we're talking so it turns out that when neighbor # 1's sister asked the cops who called the cops they said I did.

Bullshit.

I was cursing - screaming - with they tray of Chrstmas cookies still in one hand and my fist in the air demanding officers names - I was going to crash my mighty diesel van thru the station to demand some answers [not true - the van has not started in two years] but I was furious that the cops listed me as the complaintant.

I never did confront neighbor # 2 on that, I wanted to see if they would talke to me first..........

So yeah, things can go against you real fast, even if 100% innocent.


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## Deleted member 13433

also - then I'm out - going bak to everything Voodoochile is saying -- watch The Clash movie Rude Boy..... pay real close attention throughout - and really pay attention to the very end - that sums up everything when it comes to social injustice's..............
While The Clash went on to disown that movie, I disagree and feel it is actually quite important.

But the very end - that simple exchange of words from the one man to the other - that summed up the whole thing.............. believe me. 

Fucking scary when the truth comes out


73s....... over and out.


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## Mankini

When are we ruled by rational, conscious thought, and when by mere impulse?

People are right in saying bad things happen to good people sometimes.

However, I think 99% of the time, bad things happen to people who disregard rational thought and gut instinct in favor of impulse.


7 men are playing poker. The deck is stacked anyway, so the House has the advantage. 5 of the men are honest, but 2 are cheating:....1 is a card counter and thus the House's advantage is minimized for him....However the other cheater is simply dishonest and not very bright, and so will certainly lose.

http://fractalfoundation.org/resources/what-is-chaos-theory/


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## Deleted member 13433

Right on... right on mate - listen, I could re-read everything that's been posted here all day and continue spewing forth - but I just come back in from a little hike with me dog, and now I'm going free-diving - as lately I prefer the world beneath the waters surface than what's above......

Cheers...................


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## HappyHippy223

Leadbellytherxrcur said:


> No they weren't quite sure what was going down inside the house so they just fucked everybody. Long, complex story involving organized crime, LSD, a mail package, the DEA, a snitch housemate, oh man what fucked time of my life


I want to hear this story


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## psychofoamer

HappyHippy223 said:


> I want to hear this story



People in hell want ice water


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## pakratpatthemule

Why aren't we touching race here? It's a very large factor. In my opinion we shouldn't simplify it down with judgmental language of stupid v.s. smart criminals. While yes, at base here, the big picture issue is drug prohibition in general, and yes if you go around leaving your meth pipe in your car's cupholder and running stop signs with a broken tail light, you are an idiot— but— I'm going to leave that aside and point out that certain groups of people are ultimately bigger victims of drug laws due to their race and class. The reason America's rampant drug criminalization is referred to as the new jim crow is because of how it's essentially geared to put people of color in jail for drug offenses. You could be slyly toking a one hitter, you could even be smoking a regular old cigarette but if you're black or brown, you have a much higher chance of being given a second look and if you are indeed doing something out of line, you will face worse consequences for it. A man driving down the street with weed hidden in his car is much likelier to be stopped and searched if he isn't white and he is also much likelier to be incarcerated more intensely than someone who is white.
I have a friend, who is white/upper middle class, who was allowed to snort cocaine and have another glass of wine _while in police custody_ before they took him to a *hospital* for being intoxicated. They were laughing it up together even though someone called the cops on him while he was in a hotel room for drunkenly threatening someone's life. While we can argue back and forth as to whether or not his class and race had anything to do with the ease of his encounter with the police, let us first speak of statistics:

Some statistics (sources at bottom):


> From 1980 to 2008, the number of people incarcerated in America quadrupled-from roughly 500,000 to 2.3 million people
> 
> African Americans are incarcerated at nearly six times the rate of whites
> 
> Together, African American and Hispanics comprised 58% of all prisoners in 2008, even though African Americans and Hispanics make up approximately one quarter of the US population
> 
> According to Unlocking America, if African American and Hispanics were incarcerated at the same rates of whites, today's prison and jail populations would decline by approximately 50%
> One in six black men had been incarcerated as of 2001. If current trends continue, one in three black males born today can expect to spend time in prison during his lifetime
> 1 in 100 African American women are in prison
> Nationwide, African-Americans represent 26% of juvenile arrests, 44% of youth who are detained, 46% of the youth who are judicially waived to criminal court, and 58% of the youth admitted to state prisons (Center on Juvenile and Criminal Justice).
> 
> About 14 million Whites and *2.6 million African Americans* report using an illicit drug
> [_YET_]
> 
> 5 times as many Whites are using drugs as African Americans, yet African Americans are sent to prison for drug offenses at 10 times the rate of Whites
> African Americans represent 12% of the total population of drug users, but 38% of those arrested for drug offenses, and 59% of those in state prison for a drug offense.
> African Americans serve virtually as much time in prison for a drug offense (58.7 months) as whites do for a violent offense (61.7 months). (Sentencing Project)



According to these statistics more whites use illicit drugs than blacks yet blacks suffer the consequences most. Are you going to tell us that it's because blacks are "stupid criminals" and that whites are "smart criminals?"

Once you're given a criminal record, your rights and opportunities suffer massive reductions which manifest themselves as debt, difficulty acquiring a job, lost time due to jailing and going to court, etc. These factors increase the poverty and profiling that initially leads people of color and those of the poverty stricken class into a repeating cycle. These people with criminal records, a.k.a., people of color according to many many statistics, are kept in poverty, separate from those who are not stuck in these cycles… segregated, separate and not equal— just like when we had the actual Jim Crow laws in the 19th century.

Let us _also_ take into account records of alleged CIA supported drug trafficking that put crack and heroin on the street in the 80's, which coincidentally is when the number of incarcerated people in this country began to quadruple. If you read books about the history of the rise and fall of the black panthers for example, it is riddled with FBI agents attempting to corrupt the group by getting their members to engage in drug dealing and trafficking amongst many other things such as becoming informants.

These are things you don't think about when you have it easy because of your appearance. I'm not trying to pick on anyone for being white and privileged, but I'm challenging those of you who are, to think deeper about how big of a factor one's class and race are within the criminal justice system.

Sources:
naacp[dot]org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet
wikipedia[dot]org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_cocaine_trafficking
http://rt[dot]com/usa/usa-cia-drugs-poor-americas/
Excuse the strange formatting of the sources, the website would not let me hyperlink them, I think because I am a new member.


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## Mankini

packmuler said:


> Why aren'I was trying to get at initially. The idea I am presenting is that minorities are not genetically predisposed to criminality. They are not just hard luck cases. What they are is under attack by a society which has supreme contempt for them. In essence the only stupid criminal is one who does not realize his true enemy. we touching race here? It's a very large factor. In my opinion we shouldn't simplify it down with judgmental language of stupid v.s. smart criminals. While yes, at base here, the big picture issue is drug prohibition in general, and yes if you go around leaving your meth pipe in your car's cupholder and running stop signs with a broken tail light, you are an idiot— but— I'm going to leave that aside and point out that certain groups of people are ultimately bigger victims of drug laws due to their race and class. The reason America's rampant drug criminalization is referred to as the new jim crow is because of how it's essentially geared to put people of color in jail for drug offenses. You could be slyly toking a one hitter, you could even be smoking a regular old cigarette but if you're black or brown, you have a much higher chance of being given a second look and if you are indeed doing something out of line, you will face worse consequences for it. A man driving down the street with weed hidden in his car is much likelier to be stopped and searched if he isn't white and he is also much likelier to be incarcerated more intensely than someone who is white.
> I have a friend, who is white/upper middle class, who was allowed to snort cocaine and have another glass of wine _while in police custody_ before they took him to a *hospital* for being intoxicated. They were laughing it up together even though someone called the cops on him while he was in a hotel room for drunkenly threatening someone's life. While we can argue back and forth as to whether or not his class and race had anything to do with the ease of his encounter with the police, let us first speak of statistics:
> 
> Some statistics (sources at bottom):
> 
> 
> According to these statistics more whites use illicit drugs than blacks yet blacks suffer the consequences most. Are you going to tell us that it's because blacks are "stupid criminals" and that whites are "smart criminals?"
> 
> Once you're given a criminal record, your rights and opportunities suffer massive reductions which manifest themselves as debt, difficulty acquiring a job, lost time due to jailing and going to court, etc. These factors increase the poverty and profiling that initially leads people of color and those of the poverty stricken class into a repeating cycle. These people with criminal records, a.k.a., people of color according to many many statistics, are kept in poverty, separate from those who are not stuck in these cycles… segregated, separate and not equal— just like when we had the actual Jim Crow laws in the 19th century.
> 
> Let us _also_ take into account records of alleged CIA supported drug trafficking that put crack and heroin on the street in the 80's, which coincidentally is when the number of incarcerated people in this country began to quadruple. If you read books about the history of the rise and fall of the black panthers for example, it is riddled with FBI agents attempting to corrupt the group by getting their members to engage in drug dealing and trafficking amongst many other things such as becoming informants.
> 
> These are things you don't think about when you have it easy because of your appearance. I'm not trying to pick on anyone for being white and privileged, but I'm challenging those of you who are, to think deeper about how big of a factor one's class and race are within the criminal justice system.
> 
> Sources:
> naacp[dot]org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet
> wikipedia[dot]org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_cocaine_trafficking
> http://rt[dot]com/usa/usa-cia-drugs-poor-americas/
> Excuse the strange formatting of the sources, the website would not let me hyperlink them, I think because I am a new member.


Haha!! Heck yeah. Finally someone has penetrated to what i


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## Matt Derrick

packmuler said:


> Why aren't we touching race here? It's a very large factor. In my opinion we shouldn't simplify it down with judgmental language of stupid v.s. smart criminals. While yes, at base here, the big picture issue is drug prohibition in general, and yes if you go around leaving your meth pipe in your car's cupholder and running stop signs with a broken tail light, you are an idiot— but— I'm going to leave that aside and point out that certain groups of people are ultimately bigger victims of drug laws due to their race and class. The reason America's rampant drug criminalization is referred to as the new jim crow is because of how it's essentially geared to put people of color in jail for drug offenses. You could be slyly toking a one hitter, you could even be smoking a regular old cigarette but if you're black or brown, you have a much higher chance of being given a second look and if you are indeed doing something out of line, you will face worse consequences for it. A man driving down the street with weed hidden in his car is much likelier to be stopped and searched if he isn't white and he is also much likelier to be incarcerated more intensely than someone who is white.
> I have a friend, who is white/upper middle class, who was allowed to snort cocaine and have another glass of wine _while in police custody_ before they took him to a *hospital* for being intoxicated. They were laughing it up together even though someone called the cops on him while he was in a hotel room for drunkenly threatening someone's life. While we can argue back and forth as to whether or not his class and race had anything to do with the ease of his encounter with the police, let us first speak of statistics:
> 
> Some statistics (sources at bottom):
> 
> 
> According to these statistics more whites use illicit drugs than blacks yet blacks suffer the consequences most. Are you going to tell us that it's because blacks are "stupid criminals" and that whites are "smart criminals?"
> 
> Once you're given a criminal record, your rights and opportunities suffer massive reductions which manifest themselves as debt, difficulty acquiring a job, lost time due to jailing and going to court, etc. These factors increase the poverty and profiling that initially leads people of color and those of the poverty stricken class into a repeating cycle. These people with criminal records, a.k.a., people of color according to many many statistics, are kept in poverty, separate from those who are not stuck in these cycles… segregated, separate and not equal— just like when we had the actual Jim Crow laws in the 19th century.
> 
> Let us _also_ take into account records of alleged CIA supported drug trafficking that put crack and heroin on the street in the 80's, which coincidentally is when the number of incarcerated people in this country began to quadruple. If you read books about the history of the rise and fall of the black panthers for example, it is riddled with FBI agents attempting to corrupt the group by getting their members to engage in drug dealing and trafficking amongst many other things such as becoming informants.
> 
> These are things you don't think about when you have it easy because of your appearance. I'm not trying to pick on anyone for being white and privileged, but I'm challenging those of you who are, to think deeper about how big of a factor one's class and race are within the criminal justice system.
> 
> Sources:
> naacp[dot]org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet
> wikipedia[dot]org/wiki/CIA_involvement_in_Contra_cocaine_trafficking
> http://rt[dot]com/usa/usa-cia-drugs-poor-americas/
> Excuse the strange formatting of the sources, the website would not let me hyperlink them, I think because I am a new member.



unfortunately one of the bad parts of the traveler community is that they tend to be largely in denial of class/race/gender privilege


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## Mankini

Haha!!! Precisely. So what better time to start dissecting such demographic miscellanea than, as phatboy slim so aptly put it "right here! Right now!!" The only ones who can achieve social justice are us, beautiful anarchists. The system is absolutely content to keep their new Jim crow, and their bourgeoisie content.


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## Mankini

Conversely, rationality and logical, linear thinking are also a huge part of this conundrum. Common sense is not common.


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## Matt Derrick

i agree that it needs to be discussed until it's part of the general knowledge of most travel punks, i just feel like we have a long way to go :/


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## Mankini

What stands between us and social justice? What are the major obstacles? I think u.s. arms dealers have much responsibility. Without Saturday night specials whatever would an honest crook do?! Who makes cheap guns? Who distributes them? Smash the roots of criminality and you solve half the problem.


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## Deleted member 13433

As usual, I'm probably way off base here, but I feel this is worth mentioning so here it goes....

OK... It still does not help matters that for a lot of these people getting into trouble - pick your race - there's really nothing out there for them, unless they join the service, travel to places like Afghanistan and if they are lucky come home in one piece, to a life that they left behind.

Where I am going with this is if there is no hope to improve matters, one is going to do what they have to do to survive - if it means robbing someone, dealing drugs, doing drugs to ease the pain of being in a total fucked situation - whatever.... they're gonna do it out of desperation. 

The stupid ones to me are the one's doing any of the above so they can perhaps identify with a way of life they want to be a part of since they are too stupid to figure out thing's for themselves.

Where I live - I can go out anytime day or night and see people hopelessly wandering about, looking to score, turn a trick, take some one out - you name it - not because they want to - but because for them there is no other option.

It's bad where I live.
It fucking sucks.

Over population and closing down of manufacturing industries has completely ensured that nobody from a disadvantaged standpoint is ever going to get ahead, while years ago - 30, 40, 50 years ago - the streets were paved with gold because there were jobs everywhere for anyone who seeked employment and when I say anyone, I mean anyone.

Yeah, race does come into play - totally - only a fool would deny that, on the other hand I have seen more African Americans who are truly interested in bettering them selves than whitey, because whitey has become lazy and believes the world owes him.
On the other hand, the Black Man totally has the deck stacked against him, while whitey simply coasts on by unscathed.....
The Black Man has to work 10x... 100x harder to prove his worth, and that's where racism is still sadly very much alive - while a white piece of shit can be a piece of shit, and he'll be somewhat tollerated, because he is white.

I can only speak for where I live.
I cannot speak for where I am from, because that place no longer exists.

Out here, it's the whites who scare me - but it's the blacks constantly being arrested.
There totally is a double standard - and how can one expect the race that is being kept beaten down from not feeling angry or rage ???

I got a feeling the point I wanted to make got lost here somewhere as my brains are scrambled, but my intentions were not malice.

I truly believe that if mankind is to end violence, they need to end poverty first.


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## Mankini

You're exactly right. The politicians need to be removed because all they ever talk about is the middle classes. Or if they mention the underclasses or welfare class, its to discuss criminality or welfare...not the plight of the poor directly. To mention the poor as a politician is career suicide.


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## Mankini

There is also lingering Nat Turner type fear in us society. If underclasses recognized this, they could use it to advantage. Ole Nat was a sonofabitch but he had the right idea, sort of.


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## kecleon

Most people I met in prison weren't stupid but did something stupid that landed then there. A little mistake or random event can really fuck you. 

But hell you don't even need to commit a crime so that should show you it's definitely not just stupid criminals, you can just be really unlucky. Being the wrong color, in the wrong place, at the wrong time, with the wrong people or fitting the right description. Guildford Four, Maguire seven, Birmingham six. Basically a bomb just went off, you're Irish, catholic, no alibi? Life sentence. From what I gather that's pretty much how it is being black in the USA. With different parameters obviously.

I know they say everyone in prison is innocent but the sarcasm is barely even warranted nowadays.

I'd happily release probably 8 out of 10 prisoners and have them as my fellow citizens. It's not smart people who don't go to prison it's evil, really fucked up people committing crimes far worse than any prisoner ever has. You can be smart and not want to be an evil cunt.

But you with your guns and dope you're just lucky. You get in some unforeseen situation and the whole thing is fucked and you're in with everyone else telling yourself how stupid you are and going over every small thing that landed you there.


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## kecleon

And all this the underclasses should stand up for themselves and realise this and that. The "underclasses" have fucking PTSD from being beaten down so hard then pissed on everyday.

Anyone going on about what people need to do or should be doing is the one who should be fucking doing something rather than being a keyboard anarchist or sitting in their comfy middle class telling other people what to do. Really put yourself out there and if you're still alive see if you still want to rise up and fight the good fight after they're finished with you.


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## Mankini

Examine the art thief, the jewel thief, the white collar criminal, the forger, the safecracker... Who can provide a passport? Who can provide credit cards? There is a hierarchy. At the top are men who are slick-cat burglars. At the bottom are riffraff. The difference is technical acumen. Finesse. And skill. Only a ruffian carjacks. Or holds up a liquor store. But the criminal who never gets caught....the criminal whose crimes are never even noticed until he's long gone....that is the man who poses the true threat to the status quo.


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## Mankini

Great example of the difference between the man who leaves nothing to chance, and the fool: Scott scurlock ALWAYS kept a fresh battery, new tires, and legal registration on his getaway vehicles. It took Seattle PD years to catch him. Not hours, or weeks. Years. Survival of the fittest.


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## kecleon

Are you talking about people from movies? In real life I was in prison with a skilled super careful forger who got busted when they tracked the money they paid him with. Credit cards are pretty much the bottom of the pile netting a few dollars each and being skimmed by waiters/waitresses and used for such relatively low amounts that no one bothers to really try and catch anyone until it's super easy.

Most of the highly professional robberies in recent times people have still gone down for. Big ticket art thiefs are in general eventually caught. Jewel thiefs sometimes get away but most successful jewel thiefs are essentially smash and grabs then get out the country. The more elaborate something is the more chances for it to go wrong to be spotted to be caught. It's not like oceans 11 or the Italian job. The successful criminals aren't that smart they're just nobody, people from different countries that no one knows highly difficult to trace who commit crime far away then run. While it's perfectly true your average cop is a fucking moron they do have vaguely intelligent people working there and its gotten pretty easy to surveil, find and track people nowadays.


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## kecleon

voodoochile76 said:


> Great example of the difference between the man who leaves nothing to chance, and the fool: Scott scurlock ALWAYS kept a fresh battery, new tires, and legal registration on his getaway vehicles. It took Seattle PD years to catch him. Not hours, or weeks. Years. Survival of the fittest.



Guys dead at 41 after police find him, accomplices rot in prison......


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## Mankini

All I'm saying is to rely more on finesse than on brute force. Nobody admires, you know, a mugger who offs an old lady for 6 bucks. But anyone can admire db cooper. Yeah scurlock got it in the end. But prior to that...he had accomplished a heck of a lot of mayhem. And for the most part, the reason he lasted so long was because he was careful.


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## Odin

Cooper probably got eaten by a grizzly bear. 
Surklock was an adrenaline junkie... who didn't know when to cash out.
Neither very bright in the Long Run.

The highest caliber of criminal are those who have the power to keep from being called into account for they're actions... those who wield the power to wage wars and fleece the populace while manipulating currency and economic conditions. 

You know who I'm talking about... 

The rest of us, were just scampering squirrels looking for a nut trying to stay out of the snares and avoid the ratshot.


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## Mankini

When planning a crime, there are a few considerations: 1. Have I made preparations to not get caught? 2. How likely is it Mr. Murphy will intrude? How can I minimize unpredictable variables? If a criminal is not thinking rationally, he is a fool and thus deserves his fate. "Crimes of passion" are excusable, but they are nonetheless folly.


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## pakratpatthemule

voodoochile76 said:


> When planning a crime, there are a few considerations: 1. Have I made preparations to not get caught? 2. How likely is it Mr. Murphy will intrude? How can I minimize unpredictable variables? If a criminal is not thinking rationally, he is a fool and thus deserves his fate. "Crimes of passion" are excusable, but they are nonetheless folly.



I'd argue that a criminal not thinking rationally is acting out of desperation to change their situation. I wouldn't call that person a fool, I'd call them misfortuned. There are people who have the time and advantage to make crime their profession. These people have the luxury of choice. They get to choose, selling drugs and robbing banks as Scurlock did despite his opportunity to finish college and become a doctor. I'd argue that the "ruffians" and "riff raff" as you call them, would rather not rob an old lady or recklessly hold up a liqour store if they were not compelled to do so by the poverty, subordination, and hatred cast upon them by capitalists. I would never label such people as "ruffians" or "riff raff" because I'd be at risk of sounding hopelessly out of touch, completely insensitive, and deplorably pretentious.


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## Mankini

Heck no. We, most of us, in this country, have grown up working class. Poverty does not drive anyone into crime: it is neither precondition nor excuse. When I was homeless in a county with no food stamps or soup kitchens, I starved and swiped pizza from buffets. So yes, I was driven to crime through hunger. But would I have robbed, or hurt another? No. Now, many decades later, I know enough to never become that impoverished ever again. But still, one own sense of ethics and honor determine which crimes one will commit. Thus, the criminal who makes the ruling classes look foolish is a robin hood: a folk hero...whereas a mere thug is just that-- with no redeeming qualities.


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## pakratpatthemule

voodoochile76 said:


> Heck no. We, most of us, in this country, have grown up working class. Poverty does not drive anyone into crime: it is neither precondition nor excuse. When I was homeless in a county with no food stamps or soup kitchens, I starved and swiped pizza from buffets. So yes, I was driven to crime through hunger. But would I have robbed, or hurt another? No. Now, many decades later, I know enough to never become that impoverished ever again. But still, one own sense of ethics and honor determine which crimes one will commit. Thus, the criminal who makes the ruling classes look foolish is a robin hood: a folk hero...whereas a mere thug is just that-- with no redeeming qualities.



I am starting to see what you mean now, though I still feel that people are driven to commit crime due to poverty to at least an extent. Perhaps nature of the crime is born of the intensity of the poverty combined with culture. What I think I better understand is that you're defining a thug/ruffian as someone who commits crime for the sake of crime because they think it's cool or for vain reasons. I find it less problematic to judge those types negatively.

I feel that every one of us has the potential to be woken up to class consciousness and that those who yet aren't are more likely to cause damage to themselves and their subordinated peers in the form of violence, prejudice, and theivery.


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## Mankini

Yes. I have absolutely zero tolerance for barbarity, and cruelty. The vicious criminal deserves nothing but the hangman. But perhaps the gentleman, the smooth, polished type who connives and outwits both his victims and the authorities is deserving of some rueful admiration.


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## wokofshame

if you are drug user that lives out of a backpack, it can be quite easy to get caught. A backpack has no protections against searches. Neither does a vehicle, even RVs in many circumstances
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_exception

So, to not live out of a backpack, you need a license. No license? You need an unique identity. Having access to identitys is one of the prerequisites


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## Odin

Get creative?


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## Mankini

Odin, why would somebody put m&M's in a fake battery??!!  lol


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## Mankini

Odin is exactly right. Only the slick deserve to continue to roam the streets. Those who are doofy, complacent, etc., will fall by the wayside.


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## Odin

m&m's?

nawwwww bro... 

Load it with;






*&*







(I also believe... Hmmm... I have a way to improve on this particular method...)

Haha... ::smug::


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## Mankini

Or, as anyone who did time at Alcatraz will tell you, you could just put valuables in your bum.


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## Odin

voodoochile76 said:


> Odin is exactly right. Only the slick deserve to continue to roam the streets.



Just to be clear... I don't think only the slick *"DESERVE"* to roam the streets.

I believe everyone should have freedom of movement and use of wide open spaces; free of harassment by authoritarian antagonists.

(My previous post with the battery was merely encouragement to think outside the box.)


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## Mankini

Well, we must remember Hobbes when we discuss the realities of society. The cities are like a jungle. War has been declared and in a war, hippos and monkeys, parrots and sloths will never win against jaguars and tigers.


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## Odin

The players in your jungle act within temporary social contracts conditioned by their very nature, yet even if they don't realize it... with room to expand evolve and break norms.

With Hobbes I'm not familiar if his ideas exhibit social contracts that are fluid and in time broken.

Even so... what you assume as someones nature is also easily an illusion you can be stripped of.

Your hippos are over 9000! pound charging vegetarian beasts with razor sharp teeth in a herd like behavior that would not hesitate to bite the testicles off a tiger.










voodoochile76 said:


> War has been declared and in a war, hippos and monkeys, parrots and sloths will never win against jaguars and tigers.



Never say never.

Everything has a weakness... even jaguars and tigers, and many have unconventional strengths... The monkey will be clever, the parrot takes to the sky and the sloth...

Well the sloth smokes a lot of weed... and is adept at hide and seek I suppose.
Plus, they are not very tasty I hear. haha... ...::hilarious::

In todays human society, yea... it's useful to be subtle and clever.. yet depending on your goal there are various methods to achieve what you "want".

Success is not always limited to the method. Some credit goes to circumstances, access to a specific social circle, out right luck, and numerous factors neither of us have thought of. ::sour::


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## Dmac

Smart criminals, surprised that nobody has mentioned Bill mason, the most prolific Jewel thief, in America.


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## Mankini

Smart criminals know that actions must result in undermining the status quo. That actions must not be ineffectual or petty, but strategic in nature.


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## Dmac

Check out this "smart Criminal" who rode the rails just to rip them off!


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## Mankini

Please see "Ellsberg Paradox" on this. It encapsulates my argument perfectly.


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