# Illegal immigration



## veggieguy12

Just wondering what are thoughts of StP users about national borders, border police, crossing borders, immigration to the USA, the political debate about border fences and troops guarding illegal crossers, al-Qaeda coming over "to destroy our freedom", Mexicans "taking our jobs", all that.
What do you say about it?


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## bote

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-_fHGia5eo"]YouTube - Propagandhi - 02 - Fuck The Border[/ame]


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## veggieguy12

Well, in principle I don't believe in borders - effectively, I will rarely regard them, and I wouldn't impose them. That said, I believe communities can decide what they want or don't want, and that allows for racism or homophobia or whatever. (My guess is that racist communities would find that they don't do quite as well discriminating on any basis other than ability to provide for the greater good.)

I understand that the job market is tight, I just see that more as a product of factors other than _illegal_ immigration. Firstly, legal immigration would result in just about the same problem of too many workers, something which will only worsen as the population grows. The difference between legal or illegal is that the employers see the illegals as more exploitable - imagine if all the illegals could become legal in a period of 5 days or 14 days. You'd still have too many people for too little jobs. (And this system relies upon these people who aren't documented to keep costs low, they're essential to how it operates right now.)

Secondly, there's a reason most of the illegal immigrants are from Mexico & Guatemala & Nicaragua & Honduras, etc. rather than Canada or Germany or Japan - these places are all poor, usually due to US corporate exploitation, and often ridden with US-supported pseudo-fascist governments that the people had to war against for mere human rights and a fair shake at life.
About a year ago, the Mexican government was on the verge of legalizing marijuana. It doesn't take much to imagine the money this would bring that country, and at the same time reduce crime and gangsters' power. Funny enough, the US objected and the legislation didn't go through. Mexico, Peru, Colombia, and more could all be very wealthy for the more profitable crops they can grow - but my own nation doesn't let them produce more than bananas and coffee. We all know how cheap those are in grocery stores here, after all that labor and transport is paid-for. So of course people are leaving there.

I don't blame these poor people, having to leave your family and take great risks just to make a bit of money? Nobody _wants_ to do that. They feel it's their best option.
I blame the capitalists above us all doing the hiring & firing. The misplaced blame one hears from the stereotypical Redneck comes largely from a lack of class-consciousness. Y'know, before "Mexican illegals" were the bogeymen, it was emancipated Blacks coming up from the South after the war, or it was Polish "stealing" Irish jobs, etc. To me, that all just sounds like Divide & Conquer.

Most of the people comprising the Minutemen and the other 'America First!' anti-(illegal) immigrant uproar are not the wealthy, but other working people who have to compete for employment - looks a bit like crabs in a pot, pulling each other down instead of rising together. The wealthy want us to squabble and scrabble for crumbs!
Imagine if the working Americans and the working non-Americans united to demand healthcare for everyone, and decent wages of a set standard. It would benefit everyone more than trying to keep people out, or punish them when they're caught over here illegally. In the past, unions were slow/resistant to racially integrate, and I think they found that to their boss's benefit.

I try not to see things as Black vs White vs Brown as much as Rich vs Poor, and increasingly I'm not even seeing Left vs Right but more Up vs Down.

And still, I think a town or village should be able to decide they don't want "outsiders" coming in. But such a place would have a mentality to take care of its people, not let them take shitty jobs or have to work for low pay while another profit greatly.

Guess I'm just full of slogans and jargon and fantasy bullshit, is all.


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## dirty_rotten_squatter

People are people hispanic, white, black, whatever. People mainly have problems with the hispanic crowd that are coming "taking our jobs) but you know what theyre busting their asses getting treated like shit and working for dirt most of the time to provide for their family, and if you had to put yourself in their situation Im sure you would do the exact same thing. America is the only one good country that you know you have security and rights here. Now you may say well they can just do it legally...that costs alot of money and it can take up to 2 years to get everything situated and then most of the time some thing is screwed up in the paperwork and they end up getting deported. Me Im all for it people gotta do what they can to survive and support their loved ones.


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## IBRRHOBO

From a national security point-of-view I believe open borders are problematic. Same goes pertaining to employment of illegal aliens. With that said and notwithstanding an efficient and EFFECTIVE means of securing the border, I believe we are, by and through our own complicity, both inviting terrorism and outsourcing all but the menial labor positions. History catagorically repeats itself. We are, in essence, Rome in its dying days. 

As it pertains to political applications: first, democracy is still in its infancy and may not even reach adolescence. Anarchy is synonymous w/communism in that neither will ever be applied in their 'true book form'. Everyone can rant all they want; however, if the system we have now were to not prevail this very thing: StP, would not be on. No trucks to bring the food, no slave @ McDonald's, no idiot Suzie Q Homeaker to toss out shit we rummage thru the dumpster for. It's not rocket science. Civilized society, no matter how much many talk of living in the woods, etc., still depends upon an organized, logisitical system to provide byproducts for those of us who live off them (e.g.; food, clothing and shelter ... see Maslow, et al.).

This is probably something that should be explored, in depth. Not necessarily the illegal aliens, but how many people REALLY understand anarchy and other political systems beyond the mantra of the punk rock band. Hmnn, maybe I will..........


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## maus

Widerstand said:


> Illegal immigration issues is a lot like the abortion issue... A lot of people have very strong and miss informed opinions on it.



yeah, like you for one.

think about it, competing with other poor folks is not a fact of nature but a reality imposed by capitalism. is the best solution you can come up with to support a bunch of nationalist gangsters (ie the federal government, migra etc) to keep poor folks out, and maintain control over the circulation of bodies and commodities, through the nation state and capitalist economy?

because my solution would have to do with all the poor and exploited folks and all sides of any border getting together to kick the boss class's ass, not to die on their borders. the end of class society means the end of separation between us and our means of existence. therefore, no matter fighting over shitty ass jobs, citizenship papers and other crumbs from the bosses' table... revolution if you will.

"every broke mothafucka finna form a gang, and when we come we're takin everythang" -the coup


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## veggieguy12

IBRRHOBO said:


> From a national security point-of-view I believe open borders are problematic.



I don't think there is much "national security", only the illusion of it, more or less, by the public.
And anyway, if we (the vulnerable public) want to take measures to prevent resentful people coming to make attacks upon us, we can simply take down the Stars & Stripes flying over other lands, and then take it down here... Giving up the notion of a government and the accompanying flag that represents it would be a pre-emption to any attacks on that government, no?



IBRRHOBO said:


> ...if the system we have now were to not prevail this very thing: StP, would not be on. No trucks to bring the food, no slave @ McDonald's, no idiot Suzie Q Homeaker to toss out shit we rummage thru the dumpster for. It's not rocket science. Civilized society, no matter how much many talk of living in the woods, etc., still depends upon an organized, logisitical system to provide byproducts for those of us who live off them (e.g.; food, clothing and shelter ... see Maslow, et al.).



Yeah; I survive on the outskirts of civilization - I'm not prepared with skills enough to survive without it. All the same, I don't want to have Internet and MP3 music and access to world news and blah blah blah at the expense of the natural, or real-world living. And I think, unfortunately, this is the trade we make.
I don't think civilization on the whole or even our technologies are sustainable - they're gonna go, as the oil pools are further depleted and the coal is too ecologically costly to burn, and on and on... The question is how much of the natural world remains to sustain us as a species, and how able we are to adapt to living in a post-industrial landscape (if any natural land remains).
No, I'm aware that I too go away with civilization, but I'm okay with that. Can't live forever!


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## IBRRHOBO

I am really impressed there veggieguy12! I'm not being sarcastic here either! You have taken a debate and not turned it into an arguement BECAUSE you're actually learned on your topic! I mean here's some productive conversation.

If you're ever thru TN, look me up! See, that's often the problem I run into; it's not that I don't think that there are two sides to a coin, it's that those who try to talk about them don't have a well-thought, logical discussion of them! Karma points for you!


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## veggieguy12

I got to wonderin' what StP'ers thought of it all when I was trying to find some film info on Amazon.com and came across the coverfor the DVD of "Mojados", and I just thought it was an awesome picture:


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## veggieguy12

I should say that I don't have any personal experience of trying for a kind of job that undocumented laborers are often hired for; I suspect one's stake in the debate isn't unlike the whole thing of sharing music or movies online.
If I was trying to sell my recipes book, I might not want them posted online, or if I made a film or an album, I might not like it being available for free download.
Then again, some musicians don't mind free downloads of their stuff.


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## compass

I grew up in LA, worked shitty food service jobs where, besides management, I was the only non-Hispanic. There was a saying they were really fond of, "we didn't jump the border, the border jumped us." Now in Cali, that's pretty damned true, where, even when the states took control of the Southwest, the Latino communities still had generations old deep roots. I mean shit, California didn't break away from Mexico until 1846, and became a state four years later. That isn't that long ago.

I think people like Widerstand are a minority, though that may be changing with the worsening economy. From my experience, immigrants really do take the jobs that most people just don't want to do. This system is dependent on a permanent underclass, and they fill that role. We wouldn't be eating without them. 

But hey, don't worry about it. A good number of the Mexicans I know have been saving their valuable dollars, sending them back to Mexico to their families. You'd be surprised by how many of them own homes and land free and clear. I knew a guy making pizzas who owns a good sized ranch with livestock. When shit gets bad enough here, which it looks like it just might, they'll go back home.

It's funny though, Mexico is having immigration problems too. There's some jokes about how there's no Mexicans in Mexico anymore, they're all here, and Mexico is now full of Guatemalans, Hondurans, Salvadorenos, etc.


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## Angela

veggieguy12 said:


> Secondly, there's a reason most of the illegal immigrants are from Mexico & Guatemala & Nicaragua & Honduras, etc. rather than Canada or Germany or Japan - these places are all poor, usually due to US corporate exploitation, and often ridden with US-supported pseudo-fascist governments that the people had to war against for mere human rights and a fair shake at life.
> I don't blame these poor people, having to leave your family and take great risks just to make a bit of money? Nobody _wants_ to do that. They feel it's their best option.
> I blame the capitalists above us all doing the hiring & firing. The misplaced blame one hears from the stereotypical Redneck comes largely from a lack of class-consciousness. Y'know, before "Mexican illegals" were the bogeymen, it was emancipated Blacks coming up from the South after the war, or it was Polish "stealing" Irish jobs, etc. To me, that all just sounds like Divide & Conquer.



I tend to agree with veggieguy on this issue. You can't really blame people for "stealing" jobs when if you study US foreign policy and history at all you find out that most of what's wrong in Mexico and other nations in Central America is the direct result of policies by the US and other wealthy nations promoting corporate exploitation and corrupt/violent governments to back it up. The existence of export based agriculture has been stealing many peoples lands and livlihoods from them for generations. 
And no matter how much people will try to claim that their anti-immigrant sentiments aren't racist I find it hard to remove the stench of racism from this debate. People in wealthy and/or white countries are able to legally get travel and work visas and often do overstay them but usually are never mentioned in the debate over illegal immigrants. 
Unfortunately I don't think the class war is going to happen any time soon, unless things get really bad for a large enough percentage of people but I do blame the class structure and exploitation for this, not the people that are trying to survive any way that they can.


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## katiehabits

Widerstand said:


> You are just dreaming... A class war is not going to happening anytime soon... Got any other suggestions?
> 
> Try to think in the terms of reality.



just take a look at what's happened in Greece over the past few months they are in a class war right now but the "left" isn't cooperating with each other and the "right", the rich, the bosses, ect... are unified. a woman union organizer got sulfuric acid thrown at her face and was seriously harmed because she was a powerful, out spoken, women.

i live in canada; we're known as a multicultural country. in my home town all the taxi drivers are east indian. there's alot of exploited truck drivers that are also east indian. during fruit season the okanogain (BC) is over run with illegal mexican immigrants to pick fruit and do farm work. most of these folks are treated very poorly and get paid less than legal wages. so what if they are "takeing our jobs" but how many of us need to support a family of 4? if they can't get jobs in their home country let them come to support themselves and families. we are privileged people and our privilege depends on the exploited minorities of the world. even within our boarders if you believe in imaginary lines......


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## Angela

rememberusername said:


> Widerstand.. Sorry you cant get work. Get a tan, and wear a fake mustache (black one) and just say 'Que?' alot and you;d probablu get a job lickidy-split.



I haven't tried to get landscaping work in the Portland area(that kind of work is also notorious for being quite sexist in their hiring) but I tend to think that anyone that won't hire you simply because your a "gringo" if your working for the same pay is probably not someone that you want to work for. Employers that specifically want to hire _only_ illegal immigrants regardless of pay are usually wanting to exploit them in some way, take advantage of the fact that their status makes them vulnerable and far less likely to report things to the cops or other authorities.


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## Geoff

Living in the south texas with many friends and family that have crossed "illegally" kind of makes this a key issue for myself. As of this next month the 18 foot cement border wall that we've been organizing against for the past few years will be fully constructed. It's a sad reality that this wall is nothing more than a symbol, it isn't going to work, rates of undocumented people crossing are as high as ever. corruption and violence on the mexican side of the border is getting worse because of it (drug wars and such) natural habitat is being destroyed. the wall is actually about a mile in on the US side from the Rio Grande river which is a main resource for farmers, and other workers in the area. land is being stolen from people to build this land (some of these people being indeginous and living along the river). the ocealot an Endangered species in the area is being threatened by the wall as well. the wall is blocking access of the river (the only large water source in this hot arid cliimate) from many ecosystems. And all for what. to make people up north feel a little bit safer. more than 80 percent of people where the wall is actually being built oppose it. Now that the wall is in the way it just makes it more neccasary for corruption in our "border security" dept. People are being raped, molested and murdered by the migra. A lot of the time the migra are the ones who cross people too (the corruption i was speaking of) and after they get their money they usually don't keep their end of the bargain and just wind up dumping these people in the middle of nowhere. And now we're having even worse human rights abuses in the immigrant detention centers. The prisons hold hundreds of people each at a time. there is lack of food, water, medical services. many people are dieing from curable diseases in these prisons. People are being beaten and molested in these prisons by guards and by other inmates. and nothing is being done. on the rare occassion that one of these people's legal representation shows up (attorneys for the undocumented people) access is not granted and they are refused their rights to see thier clients. there are even children prisons for the children that are detained crossing. And people don't just stay in these places for a week or so. on average you're stuck here for at least 2 months. If anyone is intrested in more stuff just messege me and i'll send you some links. sorry for the poor writing technique but i had to spit this out quick since i have class in about 5 minutes.


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## bote

i know what a day's work is, i'm not going to outline my history with borders and work (though i'd love to, talking about myself is fun) 

Why are the Mexicans coming to work in the states? because they are following after the flow of capital that has been leaving their (and other) country(ies) for decades, by means of the NAFTAs and IMFs of this world. And the desire to live the American dream is in all the millions and billions spent promoting goods and culture (movies, fashion, language) worldwide. 
In Laredo, a Honduran told me his dream, the one he was risking it for, was taking his son to Walmart. Now where did he get that idea?

(continued below)


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## bote

(cont.)

So what I say is this: if you want to foster and enjoy the rewards of a "global" economy, then standard of living and culture must be viewed as global property as well. 
When your neighbour comes into your store and buys your shit everyday, you can't just kick them off your property once their dough is in your pocket. 
They are "our" jobs, as in everyone who is subject to the economy that created them.
as it stands, fuck the border


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## syphilust

All I can think of is a poster I saw
with a native man
which said
"Who are you calling illegal, whitey?"

Im making an assumption that no one on here is indigenous: so my question is, dont you feel just a bit hypocritical? must be sad to think that white people should decide who can enter the country "legally" to protect their job security (and other things, such as voting majority status) while knowing fully the land was stolen from brown people...
why are you upset that you have to "compete" with non-whites for shitty jobs?-- I can only read that as saying you deserve that job over a brown person and therefore shouldn't have to compete.


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## IBRRHOBO

Hmnn, lots of stuff to ponder here; who should I piss off first? Ach, gotcha! Anywayz, I for one am not gonna slit my own throat for being white. We've been down that road in South Africa after Mandella came in, got rid of all the whites and we see where it's @ now. Class war? That's some pretty good towing of the 'party line' there comrade. Isn't gonna happen any time soon. I will, though, pay lip service to the comment about Greece: Have ya seen El Presidante hanging upside down from a tree yet (in re: Mousollini)? Nah, let the peasents kick some cans, throw a few rocks ... fuck it, place some instigators there and burn down some slum sections of town so we can put high rises in and write it off as the anarchist agitators.

What I'm driving at here and it's really poly sci 101 is that illegal immigration will ALWAYS be one of the lynchpins to the 'bogeyman' necessary to keep the masses chasing after ghosts. Give the masses something to chase ... LIKE THEIR FUCKING TAILS ... and they'll stray from the real issues! Democracy vis a vis Capitolism will never collapse. Why, you might ask? Because it WOULD NOT MAKE MONEY! And as to NAFTA, et al., in the bigger scheme of things, they are pointless endeavours in diplomacy. Fiduciarily, they accomplish nill.

Side note to the indiginous: there is no perfect world. There are no morals in war. Vini, Vidi, Vici.

In conclusion, chase and attack the the root cause of your disillusionment: money. Ah, but that's right! You still like your cheap computer made by the little girl in Bangladesh who gets the shit beat out of her for not making enough computer chips; still like the running water that you shower with flowing through the polyvinylchloride pipes made in China by the little boy who is in prison because his father is a dissident, ad nauseum. 

Where I'm from these attempts to be white and make everything right is called being a hypocrite.


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## Dameon

I think it's ironic that Americans are so upset about illegal immigration when this land is founded on illegal immigration. I guess we do have good reason to be paranoid, considering that when our ancestors illegally immigrated here, they killed off a good portion of the residents and took the country from them.

I don't blame Mexicans for trying to get over here and make a better life for themselves; if I lived in a shitty country with a poor economy, you can bet I'd do my best to go somewhere else. Oh wait, I do and I will.

It's also funny that I've talked to Mexicans who are actually going back to Mexico because our economy's so crappy and work is so scarce.


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## sharks77

Dameon said:


> I think it's ironic that Americans are so upset about illegal immigration when this land is founded on illegal immigration. I guess we do have good reason to be paranoid, considering that when our ancestors illegally immigrated here, they killed off a good portion of the residents and took the country from them.



i hate that argument and don't think it's very fair as i wasn't the one that came across the pond and kicked the natives off their land 400 years ago... the whole white guilt thing is stupid, i wasn't the one that did it, i don't really see how it's fair that i should be the one having to feel personally guilty about it. obviously though, it pisses me off that it happened.

in any case, the whole illegal immigration thing is bullshit, i don't understand how people can honestly deport other people for trying to earn money for their families. it's next to impossible to immigrate legally and making legal immigration easier will give us the same problems with immigrants "taking our jobs," and as it stands, getting a temporary work visa costs thousands and thousands of dollars every year, and you really have to know the right people to even get one. but in my mind its like affirmative action, if they're going to be better workers than you then damn straight they should get the job over you, although i have never competed with an immigrant for a job, so maybe my view is biased. i realize that many times illegals are exploited for cheap labor simply because they can and it keeps costs low by not paying them a living wage and i am opposed to this as well but can't really do much about it, as those in charge of business will do whatever they can to make money as long as we live in a capitalist society... which we will.

i live in texas and know a lot of immigrants, they aren't bad people like everyone makes them out to be, some people like to give the example of them getting welfare checks and getting free emergency healthcare and education while not paying any taxes, well most of them would pay taxes if they were allowed to, and white people do that just as much as immigrants do. i am personally against the idea of borders but i realize that there as long as society will exist (and it will exist forever because that is human nature) there will always be an underclass and that is all there is to it.

sorry this is so lengthy. but this whole issue makes me so mad that some people think they are better than others simply because they had the privilege of being born in one location versus another.


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## veggieguy12

I would initially say that [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Internationale]the Internationale[/ame] signalling the class war's triumph is a long way from being played out of the White House.
But this economy has Democrats and Republicans talking about nationalizing some of the more spectacular failures amongst the bankrupted banks. *That's fucking amazing!*
With the right push by unions and parties (let's imagine that the various splinters of socialism and communism can actually work together for, oh, 5 minutes) and a concentration on education/propaganda, I think it's quite possible that socialist measures could be instituted, or card-carrying Socialists elected. That could potentially be the tip of the iceberg, the first domino to fall...
Once they had the limelight or any kind of public attention, and the funding of political office, couldn't they be expected to expand their public support and thus their power in government?
Not that I'm a socialist or nuthin', just that it's not _*SO*_ far-fetched, in this light. Or is it?


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## IBRRHOBO

sharks77: WOW! Haven't read a post like that from ya! Good job. Length is moot! It was well thought out and right or wrong in anyone's eyes, a pat on the back there.

veggieguy: Yeah, I watch Bloomburg a lot due to my vocation. I caught the nationalization theme on the banks! I agree w/you that there are _good_ parts of a shitload of political theories. Mexico nationalized in the 70's. Classic, textbook case. Their problem was the rampent corruption, thus it failed. But, yeah, you have some good shit there. We should talk sometime! PM me for my cell# if you get bored and we'll chat!


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## maus

class war is all around us. the war against migrants is a good example. as many people have pointed out the global south has been pillaged by the capitalist classes of the west (and more recently of the south itself) since 1492 or thereabouts. since 1994, when nafta went into effect and the movement of money lost all barriers, a lot more barriers went up for human beings from the south side of the border. "operation gatekeeper", in other words, militarization, meant that people could no longer simply hop fences in towns - now they have to go deep into treacherous, arid mountain and desert terrain and walk 50 miles or more. getting lost, getting a blister, twisting your ankle, things that in your or my life would usually just be a nuisance, can and often do mean death in that situation. death by dehydration is extremely drawn out and painful. and people are doing this so they can beg for a days work in front home depot or whatever, and feed their family in a country where the land has been taken from the people. this is absolutely a fucking class war!

and no, smartass, i was born in the u.s. to u.s. citizen parents, so i havent crossed the border illegally but ive encountered people who did. this one dude hurt his knee and the group left them and he told his 18yo son to leave him to die in the desert. the son decided to stay with his dad. luckily they ran into a friendly household. i wish people would think about the insanely intense hardships that people experience to enter this country because of its fucked up capitalist laws instead of pissing and moaning about "lazy illegals". what the fuck? why dont you cross 50 miles of desert with pigs in helicopters hunting you on your way to apply for a job? oh yeah, its because of these things called nation states which enforce the will of the rich and you happen to be born on the right side of a fucking line on a map which was created by slavery and genocide to begin with.


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## veggieguy12

Hmm, I gotta say that while I still don't see much difference between legal or illegal immigrants - and I don't much regard borders drawn up by people who live outside of the affected areas (Mexico City and Washington DC and Ottawa deciding borders for TX, MT, MN, MI, WA, CA, AZ, etc.) - I do think there's something to be said for cultural boundaries.

In the same way that it is largely White Americans reacting against the Hispanic (largely Mexican?) influence in CA, NM, and AZ, Mexicans would not be happy about a massive, if slow, influx of Africans or Chinese that gradually changed their communities.
I'm not sure this is something inherent in us as a species, or if it's cultural/learned, but I think it's somewhat valid, to be resistant to and defensive against "outsiders".


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## connerR

I can sympathize with illegal immigrants; I'd want to get out of Mexico, too. But I can't really support open borders. 

I look at a nation as a house. If you don't want people coming into your house, close the door and don't let them in. 

I'd like to see Mexicans work to make their own nation better, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.


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## veggieguy12

Uh, okay, but those "doors" on the "house" are pretty arbitrary.
Why not extended "door" closures to the "houses" of West of the Mississippi River, or the Pacific Coast, or California, or Orange County, or Los Angeles?
I can understand drawing lines, but I don't understanding defending national lines.


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## connerR

I think people like boundaries and lines. I get a lot of responses from people who, when asked about borders, say: "this is our nation, that is theirs". 

Perhaps people need national boundaries to establish their cultural boundaries? If you got rid of the wall between California and Mexico, what would differentiate the two places?


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## User Name

veggieguy12 said:


> Yeah; I survive on the outskirts of civilization - I'm not prepared with skills enough to survive without it. All the same, I don't want to have Internet and MP3 music and access to world news and blah blah blah at the expense of the natural, or real-world living. And I think, unfortunately, this is the trade we make.
> 
> I don't think civilization on the whole or even our technologies are sustainable - they're gonna go, as the oil pools are further depleted and the coal is too ecologically costly to burn, and on and on... The question is how much of the natural world remains to sustain us as a species, and how able we are to adapt to living in a post-industrial landscape (if any natural land remains).
> No, I'm aware that I too go away with civilization, but I'm okay with that. Can't live forever!



Best time to learn to prepare is while Civilization allows you the luxury of sustaining yourself off its waste. I enjoy all those things mentioned, but like you not at the expense of the organic world or organic societies/relationships.

A system of infinite hunger and finite resources, not very sustainable indeed. Oil depletion, species extinction, biosphere collapse, soil depletion, crop failure, disease, and famine just to name a few of the symptoms. Civilization will not go out with a bang, but rather has been continually falling apart and will eventually cease.

We've overshot carrying capacity and once our species crashes they'll be more room. Also once the last throws of Civilization end, the planet will have time to catch up.

Yeah, probably but I'm willing to try and survive and see things out.

Sorry if this entire post was WAY too off-topic, I know there is a "anti-civ" thread already but I enjoyed his post. To keep on topic I'll just state I don't care about immigration issues.


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## Gudj

connerR said:


> I'd like to see Mexicans work to make their own nation better, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.





Wow Conner. That is a _profoundly_ ignorant statement. If you don't see Mexican people working to make their own nation better, it's because you have not looked for even a second. 

For the first time I can remember, I am actually shocked at someone else's point of view here. 




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Oaxaca_protests
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapatista_Army_of_National_Liberation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Revolution

Wikipedia is not the best place to look at any of this, but also read up on NAFTA


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## bote

connerR said:


> If you got rid of the wall between California and Mexico, what would differentiate the two places?



gee, you mean we´d have to validate our sense of nationalistic superiority by actually weighing our own achievements, rather than just snickering at what a bunch of fuck ups the neighbours are?

what a crying shame that would be.


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## bote

connerR said:


> I can sympathize with illegal immigrants; I'd want to get out of Mexico, too.




C´mon man, I´ve seen your posts and you are better than this.


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## connerR

Yeah, sorry for the poorly worded statements.

@Gudj: What I should have said and meant was: It seems like a lot of people are just outright fleeing Mexico. I'm not sure if that's the case for everyone, but I've talked to good number of Mexicans and I get this feeling that they view their country as a sinking ship. This is just personal conjecture, of course. Most of the Mexicans I know are from pretty bad areas, mostly border towns where the drug trade is high. 

I'm vaguely aware of the Zapatista Movement, and I often hear of protests. I think the change I'm alluding to is on the governmental level. Corruption seems to be abundant. 

I realize it's ignorant to judge all of Mexico based on the border towns. I honestly don't know much about the rest of the country. But that's what I'm referring to, bote. If I lived in Oaxaca or Tijuana or Ciudad Juarez, I'd want to get out of there. My friend's wife's family is from Tijuana. They went down there last year and said the mood amongst their family was at an all time low due to the political/social climate and the lack of safety. Again, this is an isolated incident I'm citing, but I've heard similar stories. 

Again @bote, I'm saying that's what I think people see borders as, a way of forming that sense of nationalistic superiority. 

So please, disregard my first posts, I wasn't thinking clearly when I wrote them.


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## Gudj

connerR said:


> Yeah, sorry for the poorly worded statements.
> 
> @Gudj: What I should have said and meant was: It seems like a lot of people are just outright fleeing Mexico. I'm not sure if that's the case for everyone, but I've talked to good number of Mexicans and I get this feeling that they view their country as a sinking ship. This is just personal conjecture, of course. Most of the Mexicans I know are from pretty bad areas, mostly border towns where the drug trade is high.



Thanks for clarifying. 

Alot of U.S. radicals are moving away from this country to, and have been for decades. I suppose your sinking ship analogy is why. Alot of people feel like no matter what any number of us do, we won't be able to fix it here. I don't know alot about Mexico, but I bet alot of people (especially in urban areas) do feel that way.


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## bote

I wouldn´t argue your point about the border towns, from what I´ve heard (and seen myself) they are pretty bad places to live.

I´m a little touchy when it comes to ¨rating¨ countries, because like I mentioned in an earlier post, I feel a lot of problems (border problems among them) are exacerbated by the propaghanda machines that tell people that happiness is working overtime and owing money on shit you don´t need.
So there are a lot of people trying to get to the states, some for good reasons, but many are trying to emigrate just because they have bought into the idea that it is ¨better¨ without logically defining what that means. 
And this is problematic for everyone.


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## Beegod Santana

I've worked along side many illegal mexicans over the years and have found them to be overwhelmingly friendly hard working people who as soon as you treat them with respect give it right back. I have also met many illegals who where total shitbags, but who were none worse than the legal shitbags I see everyday.

I've also been denied work because I was white before, it pissed me off, but at the same time all I could think of was how many times most mexicans (and pretty much any other minority) have been denied something in this country because of their skin.

I don't support an open border, but what I do support is just making it possible for a realistic amount of people to immigrate from mexico every year. I'm really not educated enough on this subject to predict the outcomes of a relaxed or non-existant border


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## veggieguy12

This article is just a lil' over three years old, but it will inform the discussion.


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## veggieguy12

_from the Amazon.com listing for the documentary _"King Corn":

Q&A with Producer/Director Robert Kenner, Co-Producer/Food Expert Eric Schlosser

*There is a section of the film that reveals how illegal immigrants are the faceless workers that help to bring food to our tables. Can you give us a profile of the average worker?*
Schlosser: The typical farm worker is a young, Latino male who does not speak English and earns about $10,000 a year. The typical meatpacking worker has a similar background but earns about twice that amount. A very large proportion of the nation’s farm workers and meatpackers are illegal immigrants.

*Why are there so many Spanish-speaking workers?*
Kenner: The same thing that created obesity in this country, which is large productions of cheap corn, has put farmers out of work in foreign countries, whether it’s Mexico, Latin America or around the world. And those farmers can no longer grow food and compete with the U.S.’ subsidized food. So a lot of these farmers needed jobs and ended up coming into this country to work in our food production.

And they have been here for a number of years. But what’s happened is that we’ve decided that it’s no longer in the best interests of this country to have them here. But yet, these companies still need these people and they’re desperate, so they work out deals where they can have a few people arrested at a certain time so it doesn’t affect production. But it affects people’s lives. And these people are being deported, put in jail and sent away, but yet, the companies can go on and it really doesn’t affect their assembly line. And what happens is that they are replaced by other, desperate immigrant groups.

*Could the American food industry exist without illegal immigrants?*
Schlosser: The food industry would not only survive, but it would have a much more stable workforce. We would have much less rural poverty. And the annual food bill of the typical American family would barely increase. Doubling the hourly wage of every farm worker in this country might add $50 at most to a family’s annual food bill.


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## anne

I recently downloaded the episode of 30 Days about one of the minutemen guys going to live with a family of illegal immigrants for a month. I think they picked the biggest d-bag they could find for the show and the sweetest family to get stuck with him.


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## hassysmacker

"How to Solve Illegal Immigration:
Illegal Immigration is one of the most divisive issues in America today. Pinky asks Daisy for his take on what's really going on. Added bonus: Daisy tells us how to solve the whole problem in 5 minutes. For more information visit: http://www.pinkyshow.org/"


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## tallhorseman

Another case of regular people getting blamed for something that corporate greed has brought about. 

Every chicken plant in Northwest Arkansas uses illegal labor. Corporations found the legal loopholes that make it possible for them to pay illegals. Illiterate Pablo didn't go to a corporate attorney and figure that shit out. CEO's did. And they didn't do it because they weren't making any money, but because they wanted to make MORE! More, more, more.

And the more they get away with, the farther they'll go. Fences aren't the answer. Punishing Mexicans isn't the answer. Punishing corporations is the answer. Which ain't going to happen in a greed driven nation.

E.


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## colorado

Let the mexicans take it all and call it MANIFEST DESTINY sounds fair to me u wanna roof in summer in pheonix for 5 a hour


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## veggieguy12

Almost a year later (to the day), and this ol' thread is gettin' a lil' breath of life!


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## CXR1037

haha, veggieguy...



colorado said:


> Let the mexicans take it all and call it MANIFEST DESTINY sounds fair to me u wanna roof in summer in pheonix for 5 a hour


 
That's a lot like the plan I have. Except in my plan, the United States annexes Mexico, forcibly (and ruthlessly) kills all major drug leaders (you connected to a drug cartel? Bullet in the head), forcibly overthrows their government, forcibly pushes Catholicism out of the country, forcibly removes external corporations from their country, and sets up a government run by the people there.

This is all my fantasy world.

Actually, in my fantasy world, Mexicans would do this on their own accord. Then, US citizens would be hopping the border and heading there!


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## Eager

veggieguy12 said:


> Well, in principle I don't believe in borders - effectively, I will rarely regard them, and I wouldn't impose them. That said, I believe communities can decide what they want or don't want, and that allows for racism or homophobia or whatever. (My guess is that racist communities would find that they don't do quite as well discriminating on any basis other than ability to provide for the greater good.)



Are you fucking kidding?


Oh, yeah, it worked out really nicely when communities could decide whether or not they wanted to recognize Black folks as human beings or property!

Are you totally oblivious to history or just an obliviously racist white dude? You think communities "won't do well" from exploiting and excluding minority groups? Nevermind, that the virtually free labor pool provided by slavery, made the rich, racist white land owners in the south the most prosperous they had or have ever been to date.

Do you really think the current economic system "suffers" from the free labor received from the racist prison industrial complex or in sweatshops globally?

Of course not; it thrives on that sort of exploitation.

Your apologism for majority imposed racism and homophobia because you allegedly believe in "community/individual liberty" shows how fucking clueless you are about the affects of such systematic oppressions on individuals.

Mikhail Bakunin said it best: "Liberty without socialism is privilege and injustice; socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality."

Anything less is just a bunch of self-indulgent oppressive nonsense.


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## Keith2

I don't have strong feelings either way about illegal immigration however a nation does have a right to have a border if that is what it wants and people from outside America don't deserve to have the right to live in America just because they have a desire to. That being said I am apathetic about the issue. I am more concerned about legal immigration. I don't understand why the government is having tons of legal immigrants come here when we have widespread unemployment in America.


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## soapybum

No borders no nations, this world is all of ours and we all belong to the earth. The idea of nations just feeds into the idea of owning land and the privatization of common goods.


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## Eager

Keith2 said:


> I don't have strong feelings either way about illegal immigration however a nation does have a right to have a border if that is what it wants and people from outside America don't deserve to have the right to live in America just because they have a desire to. That being said I am apathetic about the issue. I am more concerned about legal immigration. I don't understand why the government is having tons of legal immigrants come here when we have widespread unemployment in America.


 
Well first off... if anyone "doesn't have a right to be in 'America'" its the white folks in this country, whose European ancestors illegally entered into indigenous territory and stole it from the indigenous peoples.

This being said, around 80% of the population of Mexico have indigenous ancestry; so to argue that they have "no right" to come here and that you supposedly have some innate right to live here just because your great great granddaddy raped and pillaged their settlements and broke numerous treaties so that you could be born here, amounts to a bunch of reactionary nationalist bullshit.

And you want to scapegoat immigrants for a lack of jobs? No, get a fucking analysis and read up on globalized capitalism.


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## Kim Chee

As I see it, borders are barriers to those who try to gain entry illegally. For me, they are only an inconvenience (o.r an obstacle which I'll breech whenever I feel necessary). For the people who gain entry legitimately, they are a place where you can make your attempt to convince another that you are worthy of passage.


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## DregeDE

Two words (one name) Immortal Technique


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## Keith2

The notion of indigenous is a racist concept. The idea people are indigenous to anywhere is racist, it is based on the idea of blood and soil. The notion that "germans" are the indigenous people of germany led to the holocaust. Anyone born in America is native and people of all races born in America have as much right to call themselves native Americans as the people who are descended from first nations tribes.

As far as illegal immigrants from Mexico are concerned I dont have strong feelings about them either way.

I don't blame immigrants for lack of jobs, I blame the economy for lack of jobs. However having massive legal immigration while there is a lack of jobs does increase the rate of unemployment. Simple arithmetic demonstrates that. If there are 50 residents of an area and there are only 25 available jobs then that means half of those 50 residents would be unemployed. If you then brought more people into that area you would increase how many people in that area are unemployed.

Native Americans have a right to determine how their land is governed and who is allowed to immigrate to this land. Anyone born in America is a native American.

Saying that white Americans are guilty of what their ancestors did is holding children accountable for the crimes of their great great great grandfather. The idea that people should be judged by the crimes of their ancestors is the sort of thinking that led to the persecution of jews because people were blaming jews for the death of Jesus when it was over a thousand years since Jesus had died.

There is a theological debate about who or what was responsible for Jesus dying, those debates aside though the principle is the same. People believed the ancestors of jews killed Jesus and because of that belief they blamed the current jews. The principle at work here is people blaming people for crimes committed by their ethnic groups ancestors.

People are not responsible for what their ancestors did or what their ancestors are accused of doing. To hold people accountable for what their ancestors did is racist. White people should not be psychologically harassed for the behaviors that white people engaged in in the past. Furthermore no race should be subject to racial harassment.



Eager said:


> Well first off... if anyone "doesn't have a right to be in 'America'" its the white folks in this country, whose European ancestors illegally entered into indigenous territory and stole it from the indigenous peoples.
> 
> This being said, around 80% of the population of Mexico have indigenous ancestry; so to argue that they have "no right" to come here and that you supposedly have some innate right to live here just because your great great granddaddy raped and pillaged their settlements and broke numerous treaties so that you could be born here, amounts to a bunch of reactionary nationalist bullshit.
> 
> And you want to scapegoat immigrants for a lack of jobs? No, get a fucking analysis and read up on globalized capitalism.


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## Kabukimono

I say it's all a load of bullshit to cause hate, fear and give the world governments control. 
No to borders is my opinion!


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## Eager

Keith2 said:


> The notion of indigenous is a racist concept. The idea people are indigenous to anywhere is racist, it is based on the idea of blood and soil. The notion that "germans" are the indigenous people of germany led to the holocaust. Anyone born in America is native and people of all races born in America have as much right to call themselves native Americans as the people who are descended from first nations tribes.
> 
> As far as illegal immigrants from Mexico are concerned I dont have strong feelings about them either way.
> 
> I don't blame immigrants for lack of jobs, I blame the economy for lack of jobs. However having massive legal immigration while there is a lack of jobs does increase the rate of unemployment. Simple arithmetic demonstrates that. If there are 50 residents of an area and there are only 25 available jobs then that means half of those 50 residents would be unemployed. If you then brought more people into that area you would increase how many people in that area are unemployed.
> 
> Native Americans have a right to determine how their land is governed and who is allowed to immigrate to this land. Anyone born in America is a native American.
> 
> Saying that white Americans are guilty of what their ancestors did is holding children accountable for the crimes of their great great great grandfather. The idea that people should be judged by the crimes of their ancestors is the sort of thinking that led to the persecution of jews because people were blaming jews for the death of Jesus when it was over a thousand years since Jesus had died.
> 
> There is a theological debate about who or what was responsible for Jesus dying, those debates aside though the principle is the same. People believed the ancestors of jews killed Jesus and because of that belief they blamed the current jews. The principle at work here is people blaming people for crimes committed by their ethnic groups ancestors.
> 
> People are not responsible for what their ancestors did or what their ancestors are accused of doing. To hold people accountable for what their ancestors did is racist. White people should not be psychologically harassed for the behaviors that white people engaged in in the past. Furthermore no race should be subject to racial harassment.


 
So recognizing sovereignty of the colonized against the colonizer is somehow "racist" and "nationalist"; yet recognizing the sovereignty of colonized America is not. How convenient. 


You're right; people are not responsible for what their ancestors did; but they are responsible for their own complicity in the remnants of those things in the present. You are responsible for your support of racist immigration law. You are responsible for your complicity in the racist criminal justice system. You are responsible for continuing to ignore the Native treaties in this day and age. You are responsible for perpetuating the white supremacist position.

You want to talk about harassment? Try living on a fucking reservation or statistically being more likely to end up in prison than graduating high school. Try getting into the US because all the "quality jobs" in your country have been replaced by agribusiness and sweatshops run by American multinationals, only to be told there is a 8-year waiting list, and you'll still have to pass a citizenship test after that waiting period. Try sneaking into that country, under constant threat of deportation, only to be told by some flag-waving trainhopping scumfuck, that YOU'RE the reason he doesn't have that super desired under the table dishwashing job he so desperately wants. Because you know, apparently dropping out of society and hopping trains illegally within an imaginary line is a legitimate form of job reduction, but illegally hopping a train across that line and trying to feed your kid isn't.

Fuck off and die whitey. You wanna make Nazi comparisons? Look in the mirror.


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## Eager

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/


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## ProletarianGuerilla

Cracker ass crackers. I want my Walmart en espanol.

I want white people to be the new racial cultural minority!

I want a Rodriguez, Chang, Mohamed, Baatti, or Varanaj for president.

Imagine a world without white people. Global utopia!

White devils! Get rid of them all.


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## ProletarianGuerilla

A lot of people wanting to get rid of borders and boundaries in this thread.

Well, what is that? That is getting rid of all territoriality.

Borders and boundaries in all reality is a defined set of territories.

Is it realistic to get rid of all territoriality in the world?

Is that even possible?


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## allenfromallenville

this land was not founded on illegal immigration, it was founded by people migrating here legally through check points such as Ellis island, etc cetera. I hate illegal immigration.


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## allenfromallenville

here I'd this idiot talking about how borders aren't nonsense, what a fool..


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## allenfromallenville

how borders are nonsense*


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