# What would life without money be like?



## TheUndeadPhoenix

I want some input from the StP crowd. I'm pro giving the middle finger to money. This is how I see it

Pros: Less corruption, more people working for themselves then corporate pigs, a healthier population and open borders

CONS: Jobs like maintaining the internet, electricity and others might go to shit, unless doing so somehow gives you stuff you want in return. Also, things like gas and other fuel products (not considering bio diesel) will probably vanish. Another thing is that third world countries might end up factory breeding livestock to survive and cause outbreaks

My conclusion: Money is fucked, but there's almost no way we're gonna see the world go back to the way it was before Caesar made currency. But there are other ways to make things work, such as giving everybody equal pay for equal jobs and not allowing inflation. But that sounds like a bad idea to me... Look at Cuba. Everything is owned by them. The money spent in stores. Goes to them. Etc.

Share your thoughts!


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## thievelandohio

The thought of a barter system always seemed to resonate with me...to model certain first world nations. currensy isnt the real problem as I see it...capitalism is. Let's take it back to Seashells & beads yo!


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## CardBoardBox

It depends. Had money never existed at all? Or if our monetarial system failed in, say, our lifetime. A post-money system? I can't fathom half of the kids I know being homebums if not for the monetarial system to leech off of. The luxery of living for free simply wouldn't be a reality. I know I've made more money in an hour flying a sign than I have working minimum wage. Without a money system to leech off of, people would be forced to be more productive. How else could they provide themselves with an abundance of tobacco and alcohol? Maybe the need for these kind of dependancies wouldn't exists in a world where man feels productive having to fend for his own.
A healthier humanity for sure. Far less disease. Would we be smarter? What defines intelligence in our material world? We'd have far less of a population. I think there would be more bands of people, tribal-like. Clash of people and opinions. More small-scale fighting and mini wars. We're selfish and always looking for a way to make our lives easier. I'm not saying that living peacefully is out of the question, it's just human nature to want more than he needs, and if not that, than to want more 'just in case'.
Kind of like the people at the occupy. They all agree what the problem is, but nobody has an answer to the solution. It would take a long, tedious decline of the money system for it to become obsolete. slowly bring in the bartering system. redefine what is considered 'valuable'. Valuable knowledge, valuable skills. We live in a world where things of true value (that is to say, things nessesary for life) are squandered and taken for granted. Reality as we know it would turn topsy turvey.


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

I agree with both of you, actually. Ultimately I think that if people wanna be homeguards, let them. Why do I say this: Look at Hawaii. They actually have a job... CALLED BEACH BUM. Like I said, give people equal pay for equal jobs. Make the bum like a cop without a badge. Make them just watch out for people and help them if something happens to them. Places like NYC really need that. I saw a dumpster catch on fire. It burned out before the fuckin FDNY got there. And then there's that guy that tried to stop a mugging and bled to death too.


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## Redd Capp

We would go back to using gold and diamonds as currency. Its hard to carry around a ton of organic carrots or free range rabbits every time you wanted to buy something. We would go with whatever was the most portable.


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## Redd Capp

Better Yet--- Someone should start a Barter-Mart...Like a Wall-Mart but no cash accepted.


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

Redd Capp said:


> Better Yet--- Someone should start a Barter-Mart...Like a Wall-Mart but no cash accepted.


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## dolittle

If U really want to know, try it. I read about this dude who moved deep into a remote forest up north someplace. No elct. No gas. No car. No phone. If he can't build it, grow it, catch it or barter for it he does with out it. He seemed quite healthy & happy.


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

dolittle said:


> If U really want to know, try it. I read about this dude who moved deep into a remote forest up north someplace. No elct. No gas. No car. No phone. If he can't build it, grow it, catch it or barter for it he does with out it. He seemed quite healthy & happy.


You don't "have to" do without electricity. If you're like that Hackett guy, you could make a working steam generator and make it power light bulbs and your TV. They have satellite dishes (BIG ONES) that pick up free channels.


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## Earth

Money is definately not my God, but it is the currency of today, so I am forced to accept this with the life I want to live.
My God is ATWA, AIR TREES WATER ANIMALS.

What is interesting is that recently there has been a couple of threads going on here regarding anarchist communities, etc...
and the one thing I got is that they still need some kind of foundation - rules or beliefs if you desire - and in mamny cases
to me it always seems to point towards Socialism, which interestingly enough - is something I'm in favor of, because (at least
in theory) it places emphisis on the person- the people - as being equal; and that's something I like.

Communism in theory is interesting too; where the workers hold the power...
Capitalism though I see as fatally flawed, because of human nature - that gimmie gimmie gimmie thing - GREED!!!

I remember Germany as east and west.
I remember when Germany became re-united (I've never been back there since 1981...) the folks from the east got a taste
of reality after the celebrations were over: suddenly, they were out of work.

My man Ted a while back decided to leave civilazation for a cabin in the woods.
He wanted to live on his own, and more importantly be left alone.
This was fine, until one day a road was developed in an area he particularially liked.

(we all know what happened next, and honestly - could you blame him??)

I like what dolittle said, that makes sence: If you're going to be in nature, be one with it.
I get a kick out of todays camping family: $65k camper based off an F-450; all the comforts of home...
- it's like, co'mon - why even bother??
You ain't camping!!

Unfortunately, life today is too out of balance.
Generally speaking, We could never revert back to simpler ways - unless Mother Nature suddenly forced us too


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## CooperBoo

comin back to this thread when i get off of work


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## Ronin Nemesis

I like the barter system because you can always trade your skills for goods even if there is no power ,and if not then build a generator


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## Orzhr0n

Money is the root of all evil and nothing more than a piece of paper that the government set a value to. Fuck capitalism!
I like this native American indian quote: "When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted, when all the waters are polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then will you discover you cannot eat money"


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## dolittle

True, U don't HAVE to do with out. But then, U missed the point. The question was, what would it be like with NO money. If U are dependent on YOU only to provide U'r comfort & needs, no money to run to Walmart with.... Who has time for satalight tv?? Of coarse, my example was "extreme", but it's the only modern story I know of living with NO money.


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## rezmutts

Breakaway from any Est. is not hard. take a step back at look at our ways of life. theres essientials food,shelter,water. individual, family, clan, friends are all going realies there's no way but to work with one another, defend what's sacred and respect mother earth and father sky. Keeping the fire buring of contentions of our beliefs, help those in need.. learn and teach my brother and sisters.


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## kurbster

Money is a drain, for sure. Barter would be nice, a gift-economy would be even better.


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## DisgustinDustin

I like this native American indian quote: "When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted, when all the waters are polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then will you discover you cannot eat money"[/quote]

www.western-sky-loans.com

Lol. Seems like they're still holding on to that thought.


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## dharma bum

i've posted this in another thread before, but this guy knows what's up...

http://www.details.com/culture-trends/career-and-money/200907/meet-the-man-who-lives-on-zero-dollars

"When I lived with money, I was always lacking," he writes. "Money represents lack. Money represents things in the past (debt) and things in the future (credit), but money never represents what is present."

^^^
great words


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## dolittle

I have been thinking about this all day, & have come to realise living with out money would really be quite simple. It would require a knowledge of what is & is NOT edable in the wild, plus knowledge of how to obtain & prepare it. Plus a few "starting off tools". Like a good all purpose knife. Maybe an ax or hand saw. A little cooking gear & U'r pretty much set. Oh, & a basic knowledge of wild medicenale plants & how to use them would be a good thing.
U wouldn't even need to barter. There are enough abandond buildings EVERY where that shelter wouldn't be much of an issue. Free clothing is easy enough to come by. And U'r wild-crafting can be supplemented with a raid on someones hen house or garden.
In fact, with the above items, the BIGGEST thing U would need to live without money would be a simple Chang of attatude. Yes, the more I think about it I would have to say, the most important, ( & maybe the hardest ) thing U would need to leave money behind is to mentally Move AWAY from the consumer mind set that has been breed into modern, "civale" humanity. The ability to give up so meany luxuries we think of as basic nessesatys. Electricity & all it allows us. Automobiles & the simplicity they bring. Plumbing, refrigeration. All the things we THINK make the world go round. Yet were unknown to mankind until about 300 yrs ago.
Yes, These are Extreme. But I think to be without the influence of the mighty dollar would take extreme steps. In fact, I can think of no other way to be TRULY money free.


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## dolittle

I read the link posted by Dharma Bum, I strongly disagree with this guy. To be self sufficent is one thing. It can be healthy, rewarding, almost a religious thing. To simplify one's life is to remove stress & anger. All this, I think, can be done while still being a productive human being. Just from what I read in the link, I would say this guy has become nothing more than a stray rat living off the trash dump. To say he lives on O dollars is not true. SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE paid at sometime for the items he scrounges. Nor can he Really say he is self sufficent. Since he lives on what others throw away. As opposed to going out & getting these things for him self. He sorta has the right idea, but needs to fine tune his method.


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## dharma bum

i agree with you, but doesn't someone have to pay for all those abandoned buildings we've lived in? those free clothes... same. nothing is EVER free, whether it takes labor to earn or pieces of paper, someone, somewhere had to pay for it.

and you're absolutely right about him fine-tuning his method. after 9 yrs in a cave like that, i'd have built it into a fucking palace!


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## Nelco

when i'm not in a rush..i'm coming back to rant on this thread
can't wait to read what everyone said


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## dolittle

Well, there U go. Very good point, Dharma Bum. I was so fokased on "making a living", I didn't think it through on "Where to live". My bad. Guess I was think of a nomadic excistance. I will have to give more thought to staying & surviving/living in one place. Either way, I KNOW humans can live, with a certain amount of comfort, on No money. Hmmm.... I wonder does the guy in Utah barter anything for what he gets from the town? I didn't see that in the article.


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## dolittle

Oh. By the way, Dharma Bum. Just my own personal thoughts on the subject. Some things Can be free. Or rather, a better word would be earned. If I go out and grow fruit. I consider that free. I earned that fruit with my skill at growing it. Not by paying someone elts to grow it for me. Or, for that matter, I don't even have to grow it. LOTS of food grows wild, all on its own. I just have to get off my tush, go find it & pick it.


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## dharma bum

if i grew my own food, it would take the plowing and sowing of your plants and tend to them regularly which in turn is work. i get what you're saying, but i'd feel like i payed for that food by my own labor. i guess it's still free though technically.


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## Pheonix

when we go back to the barter system, the hoarders will become the wealthiest 1%.


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

pheonix said:


> when we go back to the barter system, the hoarders will become the wealthiest 1%.


No they won't, cuz they hoard shit nobody wants.


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## Pheonix

some hoard guns and ammo, they could do pretty well for themselves.

coins will remain in use for bartering they will be worth the raw minerals they are made of.
minerals like gold, silver and copper will always hold a value.


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

pheonix said:


> some hoard guns and ammo, they could do pretty well for themselves.
> 
> coins will remain in use for bartering they will be worth the raw minerals they are made of.
> minerals like gold, silver and copper will always hold a value.


This is true. And there will ALWAYS. ALWAYS. ALLLLLLLLLLLLWAYYSSSSSS be collectors for shit like that.


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## Nelco

if there was no maoney, i'd be sittin with crusty moma's, raising our kid's out of our pac's, while their dads played with the youngin's,next to us..and no one would be alcoholics and no men in suits or uniforms would be coming to investigate what kind of mommy i am and what i smelled like wouldn't matter and no one would call themselves crusty, because labels wouldn't exist and it'd be o.k. to make a fire where ever i was camping..and i wouldn't get martyred, for being to human and I wouldn't be a single mom, in a family with only mothers and sons and there'd be guitar strings and harmonic melodies coming from the camp next to me and the earth wouldn't be dying and my friends wouldn't be dead and my hair wouldn't be cut off and I wouldn't have to be a walking bill board with patches all over me, for the zombies to read and i wouldn't be misjudged and I wouldn't have to say I'm sorry all day to the slef proclaimed, important people, just so they don't jack my kid and wouldn't have to carry weapons to protect myslef from other humans and i wouldn't have to be on the internet to pound the ignorance out. I guess I'd have one foot in heaven if it weren't for moaney, but instead i've got one foot in the grave, so I'm full of hatred and it poision's my soul and I can't wait for the earth to devour all these paper chasing zombie's.


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## Nelco

pheonix said:


> when we go back to the barter system, the hoarders will become the wealthiest 1%.


they won't if no one wants all that fancy, uneccasary materialistic bullshit


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## Nelco

pheonix said:


> when we go back to the barter system, the hoarders will become the wealthiest 1%.


thats funny though


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## The Cack

Money's a necessary evil.
It is a calculation of work credit, sort of. Nowadays, one hour of minimum wage, non-specialized labor earns you a meal at a low-grade fast food restaurant. One hour of engineering at a corporate firm--which more specialized--can earn you ten meals at one low-grade fast food place, or three organic-ubercrunchy DINK restaurants...

I think what you're really trying to say is that a world without "value" discrepancy, which I think is a fruitless endeavor...

People need incentives in order to do things against their will. People wake up at 7am to go to their jobs through traffic not because it serves the greater good, but because it in turn pays for their house.

If the art world is any indicator, value is highly subjective.


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## Nelco

CardBoardBox said:


> It depends. Had money never existed at all? Or if our monetarial system failed in, say, our lifetime. A post-money system? I can't fathom half of the kids I know being homebums if not for the monetarial system to leech off of. The luxery of living for free simply wouldn't be a reality. I know I've made more money in an hour flying a sign than I have working minimum wage. Without a money system to leech off of, people would be forced to be more productive. How else could they provide themselves with an abundance of tobacco and alcohol?


yeah...i agree


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## Nelco

CardBoardBox said:


> ... it's just human nature to want more than he needs...


some humans aren't like that
having more than one needs comes from insecurity...needing to be over stable from lack in trust



CardBoardBox said:


> ....would take a long, tedious decline of the money system for it to become obsolete.


 I think it'd take juust one big, wide scale, disaster


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## Nelco

thievelandohio said:


> The thought of a barter system always seemed to resonate with me...to model certain first world nations. currensy isnt the real problem as I see it...capitalism is. Let's take it back to Seashells & beads yo!


I'm down


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## Nelco

you guys down?
wait..my fuckin kid will starve, because..


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## Nelco

dolittle said:


> If U really want to know, try it. I read about this dude who moved deep into a remote forest up north someplace. No elct. No gas. No car. No phone. If he can't build it, grow it, catch it or barter for it he does with out it. He seemed quite healthy & happy.


still a probelm with this
what about us with kids
we hold the future and they take our children to negoiate finacial garbble with us, in trade..our kids for accumiltion of money and all the accesories that come with it
...for the ones not saying it...yes they're are people in the bushes with a families, but they always get busted
..so what about our future generations, what about our families..the system gets them for the first 18 years, to brainwash them and where does that leave all of us?...drunk and alone in bushes, while we blame ourselves???
yeah i'm good on that shit..i just hope my kid deosn't run away when he's 15 like i did..than i gotta worry about the street shit taking him down instead of the hive system..what about the rest of us?..or are we despensible and easily forgotten too


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## Nelco

if we can't free our familes..our lame and elder and our young and innocent than we alked away with nothing worth having


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## Nelco

truth burns,,sorry


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## Nelco

DisgustinDustin said:


> I like this native American indian quote: "When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted, when all the waters are polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then will you discover you cannot eat money"



www.western-sky-loans.com

Lol. Seems like they're still holding on to that thought.[/quote]
i'm in there with you brother
been waiting to here someone else say it...you just won me over...check your messages


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## Pheonix

thievelandohio said:


> currensy isnt the real problem as I see it...capitalism is.



capitalism, communism, socialism, monarchy they are all good sound systems in principle. the flaws in the system doesn't come until you add humans to the system and destroying the system won't stop the flaws of human nature. I.E. you can destroy capitalism but you'll never destroy human greed.


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

pheonix said:


> capitalism, communism, socialism, monarchy they are all good sound systems in principle. the flaws in the system doesn't come until you add humans to the system and destroying the system won't stop the flaws of human nature. I.E. you can destroy capitalism but you'll never destroy human greed.


I concur. Every system will always have flaws, just some are bigger.


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## Pheonix

TheUndeadPhoenix said:


> I concur. Every system will always have flaws, just some are bigger.



like how bush jr turned out to be a bigger flaw then his father was.


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

pheonix said:


> like how bush jr turned out to be a bigger flaw then his father was.


No shit. He was put there as a puppet.


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## zephyr23

this to funny i just wrote a paper on the idea of gift economy.

From Free Market Values to the Values of the Gift Econo 
 I believe that to pursue the American Dream is not only futile 
but self-destructive because ultimately it destroys everything
and everyone involved with it. By definition it must, 
because it nurtures everything except those things that are 
important: integrity, ethics, truth, our very heart and soul.
Why? The reason is simple:
because Life/life is about giving and not getting.
Hubert Selby Jr.
Requiem for a Dream (Preface, 2000)​
There are those who have come to believe that the free market system is not sustainable because of its dependence on eternal economic growth. The continual process of turning natural resources into products has led to pollution of the environment and global warming. In addition, capitalism has created an inequitable distribution of wealth and worldwide debt that appears to be growing. Each step in the process of industrialization and each technological advance have further hidden the truth from us; that we are all dependent on the natural world that freely gives its bounty to us. In seeking an alternative to the free market economy, the value system that supports it must be challenged and a new one established. In this paper some of the flawed beliefs of our current free market system will be examined and an alternative vision will be offered. 
Jean Bethke Elshtain wrote in the year 2000 before the United States’ greatest recession about the discontent that many Americans had with every day life. “Why is it that our presently heralded economic boom rings so hollow to so many? With the foes of freedom bested or on the defensive around the world, and the fearsome power of America’s engine of production and consumption churning out products and profits around the clock . . . this should be a time of optimism for Americans. But it is not.” She goes on to speak about the low trust that Americans have toward each other (two thirds who think you cannot trust anyone) and in government (three fourths who do trust elected officials). (Elshtain) To make the American Dream a possibility today, most families need two wage earners. Those with well-paid jobs do not feel safe because the work place is a highly competitive and insecure environment where personal loyalty is not much of a factor. There is a generalized anxiety about whether families can keep their financial security. This recent recession has proved their fears to be real. Unemployment is high and one out of six Americans is currently living in poverty. (Censky) 
How has the “free market” economy led to such an inequitable distribution of wealth where, in the United States, one percent of the population has forty percent of the wealth? Some say that it is greed that creates such gross accumulation of wealth at the cost of the ‘have nots’. Eisenstein, the author of _Sacred Economics_ sees the creation of such wealth inequality as built into the free market economy. On the subject of wealth distribution Eisenstein says, “In our current money system, it is mathematically impossible for more than a minority of people to live in abundance, because the money creation process maintains a systemic scarcity.” (122) According to him the main problem is usury or interest. “Usury is the antithesis of the gift, for instead of giving to others when one has more than one needs, usury seeks to use the power of ownership to gain even more - to take from others rather than to give.” (Eisenstein, 101) Borrowing money is not the problem. When one borrows money without interest one is saying “I will take now and pay back the same amount in the future”. To be able to lend money and expect to collect interest, the money supply has to be expanded. Therefore, interest bearing debt comes with all new money. At any given moment the amount of debt exceeds the amount of money that exists. “To service debt or just to live, either you take existing wealth from someone else (hence, competition) or you create “new” wealth by drawing from the commons.”(Eisenstien, 103). 
What is meant by the commons is, that which has yet to be taken from the natural world and humankind and turned into a commodity to be bought and sold. In today’s world things that once belonged to the commons, like child care and even water have been made into commodities for the market place. The negative impact on our environment is lamented by noted scientist David Suzuki. “We’ve contaminated the air, water and soil, driven wild things to extinction, torn down the ancient forests, poisoned the rain and ripped holes in the heavens. Prosperity of the industrial world has been purchased at the expense of our children’s future.” (Jamal and Mckinnon, 150) 
Another reason to look to an alternative economic system is that we are reaching a limit to what can be taken from the earth. We are running out of resources from which to make products. Many believe we have reached peak oil and that the economy that we have created from cheap oil is coming to an end. In his book _Eaarth_, Bill McKibbon, a prominent environmentalist, writes of the devastating changes taking place on the planet. He warns us that if we are to have any hope of keeping the planet a habitable place for humans, we must limit economic growth. (McKibbon)Limited growth does not work with the demands of a capitalist system.
Another negative outcome of the free market system is what it does emotionally to the members of society. We are social beings that do best when living in community and in relation to another. Yet, individualism in the extreme is the order of the day. Gregory Bateson, a systems thinker and psychologist, calls our view of ourselves as isolated individuals, “the epistemological error of Occidental civilization.”(Pinchot, p.1) The competitive struggle to get to the top has led to an encouragement of workaholism, which cuts off our relationship to ourselves and to others. “Addictions to shopping, to money and to acquisition arise from the same basic source as do addictions to food: both come from loneliness, from pain of merely existing cut off from most of what we are.” (Eisenstein, 51) This is in spite of corporation’s motivation to have the economy grow by creating needs for the newest products. This separation from one another has created an emptiness that cannot be filled with things. Gabor Mate MD, an expert on drug addiction speaking of our consumer society writes, “Many of us resemble the drug addict in our ineffectual efforts to fill in the spiritual black hole, the void at the center . . . with those sources of meaning and value that are not contingent or fleeting. Our consumerist, acquisition, action, image mad culture only serves to deepen the hole, leaving us emptier than before.” (272) A society that bases its economic interactions on an exchange mentality and values profit over human need and acquisition over environmental sustainability, is one that denies our spiritual and emotional longing for connection and our physical dependence on the natural world. 

Even after all this time
The sun never says to the earth, 
“You owe Me.”
Look what happens
with a love like that, 
It lights the whole Sky.
Hafiz

​ Offering the gift economy as a value system needs to be revisited. From the point of view of a person living in a free market system of today, it may seem too idealistic and maybe even naive. However, there is historical evidence that the gift economy existed in matriarchal and hunter gatherer cultures before the more self interested exchange model came into being. (Eisenstein, 5) As the disparity between rich and poor grows and as the environment on which we depend is depleted, it is clear that a value system based on another model is needed. 
There are different metaphors authors use as a way to envision a gift economy for today’s world. One feminist view put forth by Genevieve Vaughan in her book _For-Giving_, considers a mothering orientation to be the guiding principal that is missing in what she calls the patriarchal capitalist system of today. Her view puts the emphasis on giving to satisfy needs as most essential. Vaughan’s model, based on the practice of mothering, is needs oriented more than profit motivated, other oriented rather then self-promoting and evaluates success in terms of quality, rather than in terms of measurements like money. 
Vaughan points out that the word economics originally meant “care of the household.” (p. 31) This understanding of the word shifts the focus from the more impersonal business orientation of an economic system to a more personal sense of nurturing, guardianship and creating rules for the good of all. These days every television nightly news program begins with showing the daily stock market results. We have been led to believe that if the stock market is going up the economy is doing well. This is particularly untrue because only 54% of Americans have any money in the stock market. (Jacobe) However for most people there is very little relationship with where the stock market is and their own economic wellbeing. Vaughan also points out the root meaning of community and communication, saying that “munus” comes from the Latin word for gift.(p.32). Therefore, community is about co-giving and the act of communication becomes an act of giving. 
Gifford Pinchot refers to the philosopher Lewis Mumford when he makes the point that “fundamental change in civilizations comes when the culture changes its vision of what it is to be a human being”. (Pinchot) By re-thinking the meaning of the words economy, community and communication and placing them within the context of the mothering paradigm, Vaughan is able to establish a new understanding of our purpose in life as individuals, a country and a world. She believes that how we create meaning and measure success cannot be based on profit and personal gain but must be placed on giving and considering the good of all. 
In putting forth a model for a gift economy, Eisenstein explores the roots of money. Like Vaughan, he believes that giving is an essential part of our human nature and that institutionalized greed is a corruption of our innate gratitude for the gift of life and the abundance of nature. While conventional wisdom is that money began with a barter economy of exchange meaning giving to receive, Eisentein suggests it was actually based on the principle of gratitude and faith that more for you is more for me.(9)He points out that in early cultures, the words buying and selling were the same word because ancient people did not look at goods in a possessive way. Giving was not linear, it was more circular in nature, in that you give to me, I give to someone else, I receive and there is a constant flow of giving, making buyer and seller equal. Giving, seen as a sacred bond between giver and receiver, was a process of participating in something greater than oneself. (10) When talking about indigenous gift economies, Rauna Kuokkanen states that the gift is a way to “actively acknowledge a sense of kinship and coexistence with the world without which survival would not be possible”. (Kuokkanen)
Eisenstein states that as societies grew, developed and centralized, the nature of the gift economy was replaced by money. (12) This shift represents just one of the ways we have been separated from the natural world and our human nature. To understand that the first forms of transaction were based on communal giving and a deep appreciation of the web of life, is to reframe our understanding of money. The challenge of today is to restore the sacred meaning behind money as a means of transaction and to regain a sense of gratitude for what has been freely given to us by nature. The gift affirms our sense of responsibility, respect and shared community. It should not signify ownership of the land. For a gift economy to work there must be an awareness of abundance rather than scarcity. As long as we all live in fear of not having enough, we will never be able to give freely to others. 
It is important to understand that the gift economy is an expression of a worldview that sees the interrelationship and interdependence of all beings and the land. Incorporated into the mindset of a people that are a part of a gift economy, is that no one owns the land and that we are here to take care of nature and each other just as nature takes cares of us. This worldview is in opposition to what is valued in a capitalist system. In a gift economy it would be looked down on to get rich at someone else’s expense. Wendy James, a British anthropologist writes about the gift giving practices of the Udek in Northwest Africa. “Any wealth transferred from one sub clan to another, whether animals, grain or money, is in the nature of a gift, and should be consumed and not invested for growth. If such transferred wealth is added to the sub clan’s capital and kept for growth, the sub clan is regarded as being in an immoral relation to debt to the donors of the original gift.” (Hyde, 4) In addition, if a sub clan kept a pair of goats to breed, they would be seen as getting rich at someone else’s expense and viewed as corrupt. In a patriarchal capitalist system it is not only acceptable to make a profit at the expense of another but it is the accepted practice. The ancient practices of the gift economy provide us with a vision of how to reclaim a sense of gratitude for the land and a needed perspective on our place in the web of life. As Kuokkaamen states in her article “Reclaiming Indigenous People’s Philosophy”, “In this system one does not give primarily in order to receive but to ensure the balance of the world on which the well being of the entire social order is contingent.” (258) This is the worldview that is needed as we begin to heal our planet and reestablish our own place in the web of life. 
Eisenstein looks at our relationship to the earth to speak about where humankind is in terms of our spiritual evolution. He states that up to now we have seen the earth as a mother who we can just take from, without concern of consequence. Now it is time to grow up and see the planet as Lover Earth, with whom we must now enter a conscious relationship of mutuality and taking care of one another. 

hope you all enjoy it


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

zephyr23 said:


> this to funny i just wrote a paper on the idea of gift economy.



Somebody remind me to read this later. Looks interesting.

From Free Market Val/quote]


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## dolittle

s what about us with kids we hold the future and they take children to negoiate finacial garbb in trade..our kids for accumiltion and all the accesories that come ...for the ones not saying it...yes t people in the bushes with a famili they always get busted..so what about our future genera about our families..the system get the first 18 years, to brainwash th where does that leave all of us?... alone in bushes, while we blame ? yeah i'm good on that shit..i just kid deosn't run away when he's 1 did..than i gotta worry about the s taking him down instead of the hi system..what about the rest of us w

I guess if one guy can find happyness on his own terms, I don't see why a whole family couldn't. I still think that to live independently requires mostly a shift in thought. Stop thinking like the herd & start thinking like the herdDog.


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## foxtailV

I liked that thesis.


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## zephyr23

thanks


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## finn

One thing's for sure, capitalism does crank out a lot of effective weaponry compared to other types of economies. Sure you could have some gift economy or something for a while until your society gets taken over.


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## dolittle

Hmm... I guess capitalists would know all about taking societies over.


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## TheUndeadPhoenix

dolittle said:


> Hmm... I guess capitalists would know all about taking societies over.


Yeah, right? lol


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## Nelco

all in all
i'm here and i'm satisfied with my anti choices
if it weren't for greed i might not be the asshole that i am


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## starfish prim

currency is elder than caesar but anyway you cant turn back time. or who would want to try that ?

i know of three initiatives all in all that follow the general goal to provide exchange markets in which whatever goods can be traded. one of which and the eldest is located in Brazil where people successfully established an alternative to national currency; the other two smaller ranged ones are located in my immediate local neighbourhood, say me quarter.
the one of the latter i got aware of some months ago. its an Umsonstladen thats open few hours a week, where you can bring what you dont need anymore but still is of use and take away what may fill in your current needs. the other is an interesting initiative of local middle range entrepreneurs who follow the brazilian example in its attempt to establish an alternative local currency in gestalt of credit points that enables citizens to purchase food, goods as well as service, in exchange for investing either food, goods or service.


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