# To Manslam or not to Manslam



## AlwaysLost (Oct 7, 2017)

Lets keep this conversation respectful please. I am seeking understanding of the human condition not to start a feminist-anti feminist flame war. A lot of times I don't think men understand women and vice versa. I believe in equal rights entirely.

I will preface this thread by saying that I have been socially retarded my entire life. For the first 33 years of my life, I was a very insecure person who had been forced to become a physical badass. I was bullying badly in school until I learned Bushidokan and JKD, then i became the psycho who beat up the "innocent-little letterjacket rich boys who had never bullied anyone in their life".

So on the outside, I was your typical alpha-male gorilla psychopath, while on the inside I was an awkward, self-loathing, ball of insecurity. I think this is why I could pick up women but never keep them.

Then I met my wife and she sorta normalized me. She taught me how to be kind and sweet and to accept myself. If i wasn't married, people probably would have thought that i was gay.. But I was socially awkward most of times.

AT 38 years old i figure what do i have to lose. I got tired of hating myself and being a loser a few months ago so I have begun an exploration of human behavior and interaction. Trying to fix my social problems.

Ok now to start the story: 

I was at the hospital gift-shop buying a pop a few days ago and the aisles were very tight. This woman comes barging through. She's angry and walks through me like a man would do, broad shoulders and all. So I step aside, move my arm in a here you go you can get by gesture and say "Excewuse Me" a little too snidely.

She replied, "I don't need your permission to get by."

'Well the alternative was knocking your on your ass' I replied.

She realized I was not to be trifled with and that she'd made a mistake at that point. She apologized. Her anger had turned to fear. And it turns out that manslamming is a legitimate thing.

I know the correct response (for people who aren't super-sensitive like me) is to just keep moving and forget it. But I always need to know the meaning of every situation so here we go.

And I want to say this situation was aggravated by the cramped space. I don't typically man-slam. With adequate space, I step aside for women because its the gentlemanly thing that society expects you to do. I think its always right to step aside. The rudeness of her body language is what set me off because I felt bullied. It was a high-school level social response on my part left over from past trauma.

So here's the question?

1. She clearly thought she had equal rights to the space which I concede is true. Was she exploiting being a female so that I would step aside?

2. Or do women not understand the dominance games that we male gorillas play?

Because like it or not. Men sort out who's in charge real quick. We play our little games. When two men walk into each other, the "weaker", or "lower status" one steps aside. Unless they are old or have physical impairment. Sometimes its just as simple as one person is nice and the other is rude. I've gotten out of the way of littler guys because i wasn't looking to "GO" at that particular time.

But if i thought a guy was challenging me and I wasn't in the mood to step aside. It would have been hockey time. 

I am not trying to start a war here but to better understand the human condition. I admit I did the wrong thing. The correct thing to do was to step aside and forget about it. But Id like your insight into it because you all are way more fun and have way better insights than the trolls that respond to my podcast.


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## justanotherperson (Oct 7, 2017)

It is difficult to come to any form of a judgement or conclusion considering i am merely going off of your experience in the encounter, whereas she may have come away with a completely different perspective on the encounter. I will however try to answer your questions to the best of my ability.

1.There are a couple possibilities for as to why she would behave so rudely and arrogant.
a. She may be an all-together decent and fair person but was having a really bad day. At this point it may be possible that either she was putting her anger into men or she could have reacted the same and body-slammed regardless of if you were male or female. Considering this was at a hospital it is very possible that she is dealing with a stressful situation, maybe her kid, husband, or parents are quite ill and dying.
b.She could inherently be a rude, aggressive and dominant person. She may have then been in a rush and bumped into you. She may have thought that instead of politely asking if you could step aside so she could get through it would be more efficient to just ram through.
c. She could be an over-the-top feminists who thinks women should rule the world, type of a person. You were a man so she targeted you. If this was the case however, i would think instead of getting scared (unless of course you are super tall and intimidating) she would have gone a feminist tangent on how since she is woman, she has some right that outweighs that of the other gender.

Most likely she is not an unrealistic feminist but instead either a or b with the tendency to get what she wants. If she is type A than i personally would consider it morally permissible. In that case technically no she is not indicating that since she is female, she is entitled, considering it was likely just her being emotional rather than rational.. However, if it were to be type b or c than she likely was in fact considering herself to be more deserving than you and thus believing females are somehow more entitled than men.

2. I do not consider myself to be weaker just peaceful so if i would bump into someone i would say sorry. I am generally the one who says sorry even if it is not my fault. However if i was in your shoes, and lets say i was a guy, i would react in some form. I likely would not make the same remark you did but i would likely say something sarcastic in the hopes that in the future the other person would not be so rude. *Regarding the male game of dominance that would not really cross my mind whatsoever. Moreso she likely was just thinking that in some messed up away it is permissible for her to bump into you. And that since she is a woman you cant do anything about it. So you have to be all gentlemanly about it and not say anything. But when you spoke up you disrupted her expectations of the encounter and threw her off her game. Thus she backed off since she was taken aback by your action.
*
I highly doubt this is what you wanted in response since i did not read the questions thoroughly and just started typing. Hopefully you can at least gain a grain of sand from this. FYI i completely agree with out concept of both sexes being equal and that feminists are taking it slightly too far in their direction.. Also by saying something you made the right call since it may cause her to alter her behavior in the future. I hope you get the analysis/answers you are looking for. Good luck.


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## vannevar (Oct 7, 2017)

people are solipsistic in most cases. this is why they text constantly, develop road rage, and do many other things that people do. For these individuals, it is not where they are that matters, or when. but only where they intend to be. this type is known as a 'doer' rather than someone who can simply be.
i notice people crowding the sidewalk constantly, with little to no courtesy. Society insists that its young learn stem topics in the schools, and sports....but never etiquette or civics. this is a recipe for egoists. go-getters. and not least it will produce a race of grunting, ass scratching, barbarians. it is not feminism you encountered but atavism. Simply insist on being treated with courtesy by each and every being. demand civility of society at every juncture. call people on this kind of behavior.


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## AlwaysLost (Oct 10, 2017)

Agreed about the rudeness.. I was downtown looking too bummy and this rich girl in a car got pissy with me cause I had the audacity to cross the street with the little numbers blinking. Right of way is only for the wealthy I guess. I didn't make trouble though. I already know how that would have went down with the 5 - 0.


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## benton (Oct 14, 2017)

I always walk as far to the right as possible. I've already moved over as far as I can so if someone decides to enter my space and collide with me, so be it.

Gender doesn't enter into the equation for me. If it's a person that is merely out of it or obviously physically weak I stop and hold me space and wait for them to go around me.

If people don't like it, they don't like it.

Also if space is at a premium and.someone approaching gives.up.even the.smallest amount of space I'm happy to make myself.as.small.as.possible.

It's the people who stand.tall.and broad that end.up colliding with me.

I've been like this my.whole life. I'm not changing bow because of gender politics.

I'm 5'10 140 lbs but.all my ancestors are.huge football players. I.know how to hold.my space.

When everyone stays in their lane there are no problems. I'm walking the right path and I won't be diverted. This.world has.never tamed and it never will. I'll never apologize for having.testicles that.make a whole bunch of.testosterone.

I'm as good or.as.bad.as.anyone else.


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## paiche (Oct 14, 2017)

1. 
She could have been exploiting being female so that you would step aside. I've known women that constantly exploit their feminine qualities to get an upper hand in social situations. I notice it because it makes me uncomfortable. I'm female but don't really fit in the gender expectations and norms. So I can kind of see it from a different perspective than a woman who constantly uses the gender roles to get an edge. 
However she could have totally just been in a terrible mood and didn't give a fuck about anyone at that particular moment.
2. 
I'll admit I'm not very good at understanding dominance games of gorillas ::meh:: Some women do like to play games and would probably pick up on it quicker than me, I'm just not much of a gamer.


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## AlwaysLost (Oct 14, 2017)

paiche said:


> 1.
> She could have been exploiting being female so that you would step aside. I've known women that constantly exploit their feminine qualities to get an upper hand in social situations. I notice it because it makes me uncomfortable. I'm female but don't really fit in the gender expectations and norms. So I can kind of see it from a different perspective than a woman who constantly uses the gender roles to get an edge.
> However she could have totally just been in a terrible mood and didn't give a fuck about anyone at that particular moment.
> 2.
> I'll admit I'm not very good at understanding dominance games of gorillas ::meh:: Some women do like to play games and would probably pick up on it quicker than me, I'm just not much of a gamer.



She pushed me into the candy rack is what made me really mad. i dont mind surrendering dominance so much as i do getting speared in the back and nearly suffering the humiliation of knocking over a display rack lol. i left that part out.


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## paiche (Oct 14, 2017)

AlwaysLost said:


> She pushed me into the candy rack is what made me really mad. i dont mind surrendering dominance so much as i do getting speared in the back and nearly suffering the humiliation of knocking over a display rack lol. i left that part out.


Seems honorable to express your disgust with a smartass comment given the situation. In that way you are offering her a moment of self-reflection where otherwise she may have just continued being an ass thinking it was ok.


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## marmar (Oct 14, 2017)

1."She clearly thought she had equal rights to the space which I concede is true. Was she exploiting being a female so that I would step aside"

The phrasing here is disturbing, 'she clearly though she had equal rights'..what? I mean, it sounds like wheather women supposed to have equal rights is still a topic for discussion for you. 

2. No we don't really know 'male gorilla dominance games' 
When I walk pass by someone when I'm in a rush or bad mood or whatever without saying 'excuse me', it's not playing any games, especially dominance, it's just me being busy with whatever occupies my mind at the moment and not giving fucks about anyone around, like a sensitive guy on the way or something. I know Ive being rude for sure. But I don't think rudeness deserves a violent response, whether verbal or physical. Especially from a male 'gorilla', as you call yourself, towards a woman. 
You realize you read people's actions based on your own experiences and traumas right? So that's your answer there, it's not them, it's you


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## vannevar (Oct 15, 2017)

*Why Your Kids Are Ruder Than You Were*
*Parents are not modeling proper behavior in front of their children*
By Judy Mandell • 07/14/15 7:46am









(Photo by Ulrich Baumgarten via Getty Images)

Many years ago, when my daughter’s playmate was dropped off at our home, her prim mother would whisper to her, “Now mind your manners, darling.”

Today, “minding manners” is a foreign concept to many children. Etiquette and respect have gone out with bell-bottoms, but unlike those groovy jeans, it never made a comeback. Kids’ manners are arguably worse than ever.

“Kids are rude because they’re modeling rude behavior that they see around them,” says April Masini, relationship expert with the AskApril.com advice site. “From parents to teachers to rappers to movie stars—kids learn from what they see, so if your kids are exposed to rude behavior, they’re going to model it.”









According to Alex J. Packer, Ph.D., author of the book How Rude! The Teen Guide to Good Manners, Proper Behavior, and Not Grossing People Out , good manners must be taught, discussed, and practiced. Yet manners are no longer stressed in many homes and schools. “A lot of parents would rather be their child’s friend than their parent,” he says. “So kids get mixed messages and etiquette instruction falls by the wayside.” In a survey Mr. Packer conducted with parents for his book, he asked: “Do you think children today are more polite, less polite, or the same as when you were growing up?” Of the 70 parents that responded, three-quarters answered that today’s children and adults are less polite than when they, themselves, were growing up.

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Is Our Lack Of Manners Partly A Result Of New Technology? 





A young boy greets a child size doll which is to be his dancing partner during a dancing lesson. (Photo by Three Lions/Getty Images)

“I wouldn’t say it’s necessarily the instant gratification that’s the culprit,” says Mr. Packer. “It’s the nature of what the technology demands or allows one to do. Texting and tweeting encourage brief communications, which can lead to a lack of clarity, nuance, and sensitivity, in other words, bad manners. Relating through electronic devices creates a breeding ground for rudeness since it’s easier to be rude anonymously or remotely; you get less practice for ‘real’ relationships; and, for most people, brief written communications are more likely than face-to-face interactions to lead to rude, insensitive, or misinterpreted remarks. In the same way that the automobile introduced a myriad of new opportunities for rudeness, so do today’s new electronic devices, social media, and communication methods.”

Darlene Sweetland, Ph.D. and Ron Stolberg, Ph.D., clinical psychologists and authors of Teaching Kids to Think: Raising Confident, Independent, and Thoughtful Children in an Age of Instant Gratification fret that kids in this generation are technology focused. “Their faces are in their phones, not attending to those around them. “In past generations, eyes were up observing the social interactions around them all day long,” says Ms. Sweetland. “Now, their eyes are on their electronic devices, missing all of those opportunities to learn manners and social skills. You can’t use manners when you aren’t attentive to others. In addition, parents are modeling it for their kids. How many times do you see parents on their phones any time there is a minute of waiting?”

A 2014 study by the Boston Medical Center, published in the journal Pediatrics, found that 75 percent of families observed at fast food restaurants checked their smart phones during the meal. About one-third of parents were on their smart phones the entire meal.

“As far as digital manners go, the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree,” says David Ryan Polgar, cofounder of the Digital Citizenship Summit, and a frequent commentator about tech etiquette. “While it is easy to spot a child glued to their device, oblivious to the world around them, it should be noted that poor digital manners are a cross-generational issue. There are countless adults displaying rude behavior while being engulfed in devices.”

Mr. Polgar adds that he is more concerned with parents not modeling proper behavior in front of their kids. “This starts with the classic example of parents ignoring their children during meals while being on their devices, which sends a negative signal and sets a poor standard for expected tech etiquette. Similar to the famous anti-drug commercial of the late 80s, a child can explain their rude tech behavior by saying, ‘I learned it by watching you, Dad!’ Parents who poorly use tech may be raising children who poorly use tech. No wonder everyone is so rude.”

Mr. Polgar believes the pendulum will swing the other way as we establish what is and what isn’t appropriate tech behavior. “There is a movement afoot to teach digital citizenship skills, which includes tech etiquette as a major component.”

***

Read The Underparented Child Flies Again

The Survey Says 

In a survey conducted by psychologist Alex J. Packer, parents revealed the most important manners they would like their children to practice:

1. Say “Please,” “Thank you,” “You’re welcome,” “May I?” and “Excuse me.”

2. Write thank-you notes.

3. Look people in the eye.

4. Clean up after themselves.

5. Don’t interrupt.

6. Use good table manners

7. Give people a firm handshake.

8. Have compassion toward others.

9. Respond when spoken to.

10. Don’t say hurtful things.


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## AlwaysLost (Oct 16, 2017)

marmar said:


> 1."She clearly thought she had equal rights to the space which I concede is true. Was she exploiting being a female so that I would step aside"
> 
> The phrasing here is disturbing, 'she clearly though she had equal rights'..what? I mean, it sounds like wheather women supposed to have equal rights is still a topic for discussion for you.
> 
> ...




No no your right to a point but there is a double standard here. I dont contest she had rights to the space but if women want equal rights shouldnt they be prepared for the treatment that comes with it. I'm completely scoobied on this one. Reading about that girl getting bodychecked on the street multiple times seemed very unkind.

A few months ago I decided it was time to change myself. I am trying to change and correct all my social problems evolve myself from Gorilla to Gentleman. 40 years as an outcast was enough for me.

Here's the double standard

I wouldn't let a man shove me into a candy rack as she did. Id bodyslam him or headbutt him in the nose first (barring gang tattoos on his face or a [1%] on his jacket). I stepped aside because she was a woman and almost suffered the humiliation of knocking over a candy rack. Its a difficult double standard. I never claimed to be a gorilla (post-wife) but I mean you cant bodyslam a woman who is trying to walk through you (without looking like a total prick) like you can a man who's being an asshole to you.

I am trying to find the appropriate social response. With adequate space I always step aside to a woman because that is the socially respected thing to do. I'm glad for all your responses. I'm thinking I do a Jesus and just show the confidence of shrugging it off next time. 

I've given this persona way too much power over me. But this situation really bugged me.


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## vannevar (Oct 16, 2017)

AlwaysLost said:


> No no your right to a point but there is a double standard here. I dont contest she had rights to the space but if women want equal rights shouldnt they be prepared for the treatment that comes with it. I'm completely scoobied on this one. Reading about that girl getting bodychecked on the street multiple times seemed very unkind.
> 
> A few months ago I decided it was time to change myself. I am trying to change and correct all my social problems evolve myself from Gorilla to Gentleman. 40 years as an outcast was enough for me.
> 
> ...



Compassion, empathy, and civility zones could be created. Like signs as youre coming into town that say that and let people know that community is pro-manners. Then rudeness, selfishness, and other stuff could gradually be relegated to areas where people are okay with it.


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## Hobo Mud (Oct 16, 2017)

Don't have a lot of advice on the subject in hand however I do want to state that I think you having the ability to ask and express your question in the way you have stated show maturity and growth. You can't change what you don't acknowledge and it appears your on the right path. 

I would have been upset as well if someone knocked me into a candy rack intentionally however at my age I try to avoid conflict. Keep on keeping on brother.


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## AlwaysLost (Oct 16, 2017)

Mudisthename said:


> Don't have a lot of advice on the subject in hand however I do want to state that I think you having the ability to ask and express your question in the way you have stated show maturity and growth. You can't change what you don't acknowledge and it appears your on the right path.
> 
> I would have been upset as well if someone knocked me into a candy rack intentionally however at my age I try to avoid conflict. Keep on keeping on brother.



Thanks man. I knew you all would be good people to ask. If I did it on youtube Id just have gotten trolled into oblivion. You take care too my friend.


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## vannevar (Oct 16, 2017)

similar to tree friendly cities, we could have ‘kind, generous, gracious cities’ awards for communities which evolve past ceratin attitudes and behavior patterns. No rushing around allowed, no me first attitudes etc


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