# WHat do ya think about them thar Pirates in Somalia?



## wokofshame (Apr 12, 2009)

I really sympathize in some ways.... poverty makes people do crazy stuff.... and i really get a good feeling when i hear the word pirate and it's real life...
but the reality is these dudes are being heinous douchebags and are no more nice people than yr average neighbourhood crackdealer or coyote---- what does everybody here think about this?

PS hitting close to home, the captain who was captured on the Maersk ship and is being held hostage right now went to the same high skool as me


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## Shoestring (Apr 12, 2009)

*They "JUST" freed the captain and killed the pairates!!!*
*(Turn on CNN)!!!*


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## gangleri (Apr 12, 2009)

Well they certainly aren't the only pirates out there off the coast of Somalia. 

I think they're entirely justified. Ships from the "first world" have been dumping huge amounts of radioactive waste into the fishing grounds of these people who are fucking destitute, and stealing what fish isn't contaminated. The government of Somalia collapsed in 1991 and the coastal peoples have been getting screwed since. Is it any wonder that they'd stand up for themselves? If my family and friends were diseased, deformed, or starving at the hands of exploitative capitalist shitbags, I'd get a little hostile too.


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## RideMoreTrains (Apr 13, 2009)

somolia is hell on earth right now.


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## Arapala (Apr 13, 2009)

I don't think educated enough to say. But ya know how it is, people hear the word pirate, and think peg leg, one eye, parrot, etc. Its much different than that. I don't think they are just stealing for the fun of it...


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## finn (Apr 13, 2009)

Well, live by the gun, die by the gun. But they do keep it possible for fishers to make a living by keeping the trawlers and foreign fishing ships away- it's a mixed bag. Neglect an area that long, and if there's picking to be had, it's going to become bandit country until the place stabilizes enough.


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## FreeBHamster (Apr 14, 2009)

I can sympathize with the pirates.

Johann Hari: You are being lied to about pirates - Johann Hari, Commentators - The Independent


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## veggieguy12 (Apr 14, 2009)

I'm on the pirates' side.



> In the "City of God," St. Augustine tells the story of a pirate captured by Alexander the Great. The Emperor angrily demanded of him, "How dare you molest the seas?" To which the pirate replied, "How dare you molest the whole world? Because I do it with a small boat, I am called a pirate and a thief. You, with a great navy, molest the world and are called an emperor." St. Augustine thought the pirate's answer was "elegant and excellent."
> -Noam Chomsky, _Pirates & Emperors_



Why were American tax-paid military personnel (first Marines, then Navy) sent to protect private merchandise owned by Americans?
I know the ship's Captain is American, but I think that is incidental; the 'rescue' was to regain control of the property.


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## gangleri (Apr 14, 2009)

The tricky thing about the illegal/legal and international/territorial waters with Somalia is that there IS no government to enforce the fishing rights and territorial boundaries of the country right now. And yeah, there are a lot of hijackings going on to finance fucked-up power struggles between warlords, but a lot of the pirates are simply looking after their people, and trying to keep the waters usable for them. Additionally, if, as reported, over $300 million is stolen by illegal fishing every year in what was Somali waters. While piracy and extortion are not the tactics for everyone, a starving and desperate people will turn to what means are available for recompense. Piracy and terrorism both are labels the rich will apply to the poor who fight against them.

I dunno, this is just how I see it. I'm sure there are other perspectives and factors to be considered. I tend to take the side of the rebel in these things though, if their cause is just. Also, that Johann Hari article linked above is a good one.


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## veggieguy12 (Apr 14, 2009)

ArrowInOre said:


> because no-one else had the juevos to go in and help...



That could be it. Or, considering our financial crisis and the ballooning national debt and our (over)extension in the Middle East/W.Asia, it might be more about who the US govt. loyally serves.

It's not as if this American ship was captured or held in American waters, which are protected by the US Coast Guard and US Navy.
Is it just a matter of _juevos_ that has US aircraft carriers and battleships and destroyers dotting the Persian Gulf / Arabian Sea, or might it be something else? Was going into Iraq or Afghanistan - to skip mention of incursions prior to year 2000 - just a matter of _juevos_?


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## IBRRHOBO (Apr 14, 2009)

Had multiple quotes to address here, so just read thru and apply accordingly. First, gangleri these, '...poor and meek fishermen...' you speak of are armed terrorists hijacking not cargo, but people and holding them hostage for ransom. So, you think the pirates or as I call them fucking terrorists are donating the money to the fishermen? Nah, wouldn't bet my hand on it. Would you? Don't know if you remember when we tried to bring in humanitarian aid and they killed our men and drug them thru the streets of Mogodishu?! So, the poor third world bullshit doesn't apply to the Somali coast. You're dealing with a bunch of warlords there. The civilians MAY be innocent, but we rose up in the US against Britain and they can do the same. Otherwise it's complicity to the fact.

Second, a vessel flying under the flag of a country in international waters is, in fact, that nation under maritime law. No different than invading the US or whatever country has a flag flying. Fought a war, got the tossed salad on my chest, and am pretty familiar with Geneva, USMJ and UN law pertaining to such.

And for the future comments that I'm some insane warmonger (hmnn, maybe I am) how would you feel if you're out in your little boat and you get hijacked, raped and your head tossed off along with the mutilated body of your child beside you? Gee, that's happening right now and that's why we're waging a war against international piracy (note: I did NOT say terrorism).

If you wanna go ahead and support piracy, fine. Here's how it plays out: Left unchecked, the parts needed to keep your (or in a lot of cases here, the library's) computers don't make it to the US. No more cell phones, no more nothing. Why? Because we outsource a tremendous amount of the end products which we consume.

The final point I'll leave here is that it was ironic that a portion of that vessel had humanitarian aid for Somalia. Yeah, poor fishermen, 'eh?!


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## drunken marauder (Apr 15, 2009)

Thank you Ibrr. HAHHAHAHAHAHA I may be an intolerant war monger.. But when I get up in the morning and walk down the street I do it with out fear that the cafe I am going to isnt blown up by some terrorist.. Did no one mention that they were taking grain to Somalia?? Personally I thought they shoulda just blown the grain ship up with the pirates on it. I have no patience for pirates or terrorist. Shure I do what I do and may even think of myself as some what of a pirate. But I am not about to sit back and allow someone to wage their JIHAD on me.. Sure there is a time and place for uprising but not against my country. See the US is the greatest place on earth for one reason and its simple. If you don't like it leave. I hope to leave soon enough.. I don't agree with most stuff the government does. But if people think our economy is so bad now. Let pirates raid all of our ships and all of our exports going out and see what happens then.. They were taking them food!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wouldnt do that agian.


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## gangleri (Apr 15, 2009)

This isn't to get into an argument of semantics, or to start up a shitstorm: I enjoy discussion and dialogue. I respect that you've got your opinion on this, and I'm probably not going to change it.

But first of all, thats not even a quote of mine, I never called them poor or meek. If they were meek, would they buy guns and hijack a ship? They're poor, in the sense that they have no money, and little enough of anything else. Second of all, none of us know the direction their funds go to. But if you'll notice, the effect that the word or implication 'terrorist' has on our minds is to assume that they're part of a vast criminal conspiracy thats trying to destroy civilization, and that they care only for their goals. All I have to say is that I've done things that have earned me the label terrorist from the media and from certain individuals, and I'm not some murderous psychopath.

I can see there would be some difficulties in a popular revolution in Somalia, like abundance of heavy weaponry and militias in the control of warlords, but I have to say, I'm with you on this one. Because of how political boundaries are drawn and the nature of governmental action, we're all complicit until we revolt.

Also, in response to the "how would you feel" part: the Somali pirates have treated their captives real well. I dunno how that'll change now that three were murdered outright during negotiations and they (or that particular band) have vowed revenge.

What I get from your view of piracy-left-unchecked is that it'll disrupt international trade and global capitalism as a whole. I have to say, this is something I'd welcome. I'm typically a bit more idealistic in my idea of how global capitalism will be gutted, but if piracy can help out, well hell, lets do it. Even if it doesn't get that far, I think we'll get whats been coming if we lose all those things we've decided to outsource.


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## veggieguy12 (Apr 15, 2009)

When did the punks go so conservative?



pritymic said:


> But when I get up in the morning and walk down the street I do it with out fear that the cafe I am going to isnt blown up by some terrorist..



The USA hasn't even experienced any terrorism to speak of.
Even so, I don't think Italians, Germans, English, Spanish, or Israelis fear going about their daily routines.
Hell, Chechens, Iraqis, and Palestinians are killed every day not by "terrorism" but by full-fledged, well-armed, high-tech billion-dollar armies, and I don't think they are afraid to do what life requires.
Not that all our armies could stop some douchebag mailing anthrax (or catch the perpetrator), or blowing-up a Uhaul in Oklahoma City.
If you really feel safe, you're deluded. There is no real security from government.



pritymic said:


> Sure there is a time and place for uprising but not against my country.



I'm trying to discern some meaning from this...



pritymic said:


> See the US is the greatest place on earth for one reason and its simple. If you don't like it leave.



And that reason is _____? Don't want to share that single "simple" reason?
Love it or leave it? That's some fucking ridiculous Archie Bunker shit I thought died with Reagan. Come on, you're essentially saying "Don't try to change it or make any critique, just abandon ship." Foolish. And cowardly, I think.

This just sounds like the same shit I could hear on Right-wing AM radio: I have no tolerance for drug-slingers whining about their tough life in the ghetto.
Whatever. Most folks do what is easiest among their options.
Piracy ain't easy, but it beats slaving in a sweatshop. At least you have some dignity in standing on your own feet and taking what you need/want, rather than groveling for Nike's contractors to dole out a pittance of wages.



pritymic said:


> But if people think our economy is so bad now. Let pirates raid all of our ships and all of our exports going out and see what happens then.



Why, we'd end up like some African country! We might even have to do dirt for our daily bread, oh shit!

IBRR: I guess I wouldn't be pleased about being hijacked and decapitated; I also wouldn't be pleased to be in a shit-hole made so due to global racketeering and extortion and plundering and looting and pillaging - aka, US foreign policy protecting capitalism. If I was Iraqi or Somali or Colombian, I might kidnap some foreigner and ransom him back to his big-money employer or wealthy family.

I have more respect for John Dillinger, Bonnie Parker, Clyde Barrow than for J. Edgar Hoover or Andrew Carnegie or Henry Ford. (And you can apply that back through the ages with cowboys and pirates too.)


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## IBRRHOBO (Apr 15, 2009)

gangleri: I didn't quote you. "..." would indicate a quote; '...' indicates a euphemism. Don't worry about starting a shitstorm, I generally do! lol Nah, good debate is the cornerstone to knowledge and change (no Obama pun intended).

vg12: I don't necessarily support capitalism, communism or any "ism'. I just support what works for me right now. Whether anarchy or otherwise, if you begin to attack (as the pirates are currently doing) whatever the powers that be, you're gonna get fucked up. I'm not saying the Somalians should go to the UN or wherever and plead their case. Probably isn't gonna do shit. By the same token, I am not going to surrender my internet, lights, power, water, and definately NOT my freight trains so that they can do better. Unfair? Yup. Might, no matter how much we want to pretend it is repulsive, is right. Two points here: first, if you wanna send money, food, etc. over there to help, that's gonna jack my taxes. EVERYONE pays taxes here, make no mistake. Whether you pay income tax or not is moot. Buy tobacco, take the bus, put a tire on your bike...you get the point. Doesn't make a fuck to me, I'm not paying for someone else's free ride (here's another 'ism' called altruism).

So, let me get on the record real quick as I DEFINATELY don't support Rush, Hannity, et al. I do, though, like Art Bell/Coast-to-Coast AM and I guess that's AM radio. IF there were a VIABLE plan put forth to: oh, save the world, save the poor, change government, etc., I'd look at it. I live in the real world here in Tennessee. Oh, I harbor discontent as does every combat veteran. Living in the real world means that I have to act locally. Grow my own food, raise my cattle, chickens and ducks. Keep a well maintained arsenal. Short of that, though, the thought of overthrowing multiple governments, etc. just doesn't seem practical. You see, Russia, China, the EU and the US are all interwoven into a fabric of international commerce. Take on one and you take on them all. Make no mistake here, either, MLK, Jr., wasn't far off point in his 'non-violent protests'. Insurrection simply emboldens powers that be. Go no further than the recent fiascos of the FBI. No, for revolution to actually happen and I DO think it will someday, it will be in a generational aspect. Classic case-in-point: Open Systems Code vs. Microsoft, free phone on the internet vs. Ma Bell, etc. Decades in their growth, but they had the proper genesis. Perhaps our children will see it, but we will not in any meaningful sense. What we WILL be able to do, though, is lay the dialogue; fertile soil if you will, for the coming changes.

So, I guess my world revolves around effecting change where I am and how it impacts those I interact with. Is there wrong in the world? Fuck yeah there is. Sux, but I can't help those globally until I change what is happening locally.

Good shit going on in this thread by the way!


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## drunken marauder (Apr 15, 2009)

So umm I like this thread. I hope others are enjoying debate and its doesnt turn to argument... Hmmm lets see where to begin... I dunno know what to say I believe in the first amendmant.. I grew up with gun toting conservatives and love them.. Yes pirating is awsome I do it all the time.. Sweet be a pirate but you know what sucks about stealing???? GETTTING CAUGHT. If your gonna be the badest mother fucker in the valley be the badest and take your fucking likins dont cry when you get your ass beat.. I dunno...... I mean I believe in the constitution of the United States... I like my freedoms..... I think they are well afforded to me here.. I'm definitly not saying dont try to change things in US. I would love to see a lot of changes the tobacco tax for one.. But I have agian no patience for cowards who surprise attack innocent civillians and then cry because they are punished for it... I bet the navy was pretty damn mad the last one didnt die..


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## IBRRHOBO (Apr 15, 2009)

In re: Navy. Probably not. Calculated shots. Need one alive to interrogate. Don't worry about Gitmo, he'll be sharkfood on the way back in. Probably commit suicide.


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## veggieguy12 (Apr 16, 2009)

IBRRHOBO said:


> I don't necessarily support capitalism, communism or any "ism'. I just support what works for me right now.



That's kinda underlying my defense of/sympathy for/excusing the pirates...

By the way (for whatever it's worth), I don't think the sincere and appreciable notions of 'helping the poor' amount to much positive effect. I'm not a big fan of things like grain shipments - in fact, I'm decidedly against _that_ specific act, as it brings on famine (a separate discussion). And I'm pretty sure that Western governments are not giving the 3rd World a lifeline out of genuine humanitarian concern; call me cynical, but there's always a self-interest being served.


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## veggieguy12 (Apr 16, 2009)

Hey, what I heard about the hijacked ship was that it had a bunch of military hardware, as this article confirms.
I know now that this was not the only ship hijacked, but it was the incident which brought these pirates to my attention.



> A family member said *Capt. Richard Phillips surrendered himself to the pirates* to secure the safety of the crew.
> 
> "What I understand is that *he offered himself as the hostage*," said Gina Coggio, 29, half sister of Phillips' wife. "That is what he would do. It's just who he is and *his responsibility as a captain.*" [my emphases added]
> -article



I didn't see any mention of 'food-aid' being aboard one of the ships, but I'm not sure I accept some company's word for it. It's not like they're about to say "We were shipping some highly dangerous shit without any protection, because we're cutting corners to keep profit margins high."

The more I think about it, I suspect Obama's image was a deciding factor in making this 'rescue', as was Bush's for that whole Jessica Lynch sham (1, 2).


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## IBRRHOBO (Apr 16, 2009)

Don't know if you're aware of it or not, but civilian crews are allowed ABSOLUTELY no access to firearms of any kind. Anyways, this ship and the last one, yesterday, both had food aid. Probably reference the CNN reports. They're a fairly liberal-neutral media outlet.

Fully agree w/you on the grain shipments in re: it doesn't help other countries. It would be better to teach them agriculture and implement a long term plan. That wouldn't help to keep them destabalized, though, which is our current national security policy.

I simply don't agree with attacking innocent civilians. If you're gonna pick a fight, pick it with those who are causing the problem. The government, etc. And really they're not accomplishing much other than filling body bags. Sooner or later and trust me here as intelligence is what I did, if the pirates continue down this path, we will send in an 'alphabet soup' acronymed team and terminate with extreme prejudice. It's not an NBC Sunday night movie. The US can and it WILL. Right or wrong, that's simply the realities of the 21st Century.

Thanx for posting the articles!


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## veggieguy12 (Apr 16, 2009)

IBRRHOBO said:


> Don't know if you're aware of it or not, but civilian crews are allowed ABSOLUTELY no access to firearms of any kind. Anyways, this ship and the last one, yesterday, both had food aid. Probably reference the CNN reports. They're a fairly liberal-neutral media outlet.



I didn't know about the prohibition of weapons, but Blackwater and other available for-hire mercenary/security forces come to mind - *if* a corporation was willing to spend for the protection. Hell, a gunboat alongside your cargo ship might make you more of a target, I dunno.

I've since found the food shipments mentioned in reports, and I'm not disputing it, I'm just cynical. I think it certainly plays well to demonize the robbers by saying "Look, we were trying to help their people and they don't even let that go!". How convenient for 'our' side. Know what I mean?
If it was a shipment of diamonds extracted from the pirates' region, that would be different to many people, more understandable. Not that the pirates know what cargo is on-board when they set out for a ship.



IBRRHOBO said:


> I simply don't agree with attacking innocent civilians. If you're gonna pick a fight, pick it with those who are causing the problem. The government, etc.



Well, I too oppose attacking civilians. But y'know, these are pirates, not an armed national liberation group. They're not out to attack military apparatus & personnel, they're out _for the money_.
When the reporter asked "Why did you rob banks?", the man answered, "That's where the money is." (1) And when you rob a bank you encounter civilians.
It's not as though the pirates just bombed a ship and stole the goods, with no regard for the personnel. No, they're making the most of everything (incl. people).

The MEND in Nigeria has been kidnapping Westerners from oil companies for years, ransoming them back to the employers (the latest case). What else are they gonna do? I'd probably be part of the group if I was in their position.


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## gangleri (Apr 16, 2009)

IBRR: I agree that we have to enact change where we can in our own lives, and locally. I admire that you've taken steps to take control of your own food and defense. Something in me has to work towards a revolution thats more than generational, though, because I don't think we have time for progressive change in the world today. I think if we don't change things fast and drastically, this looming environmental cataclysm is going to bring us all down, and a lot faster than we expect.

These pirates aren't really targeting the people that are on the ships. They're attacking them in the sense that they're stopping and boarding the ships, but they've treated their captives well, and only held onto them so long as is required to extort from their parent companies and governments.

The subject of food aid is another thing. If the US cared so much about the stability of Somalia, why didn't it support the coalition government that was trying to piece things together for like five years, ending with its collapse a couple of years ago. There was little or no aid from Western countries then, no loans, no food aid, no peacekeepers, but when they're back in a state of free-for-all war, we're at it with the food aid again. No, I see it as a way to appease liberals in the first world while keeping Africa divided and unorganized. After all, the global south is the engine of first world consumption, and if they're unorganized and impoverished, how well can they stand up for themselves or whats theirs?

I'm interested to see the military response here, if it will be proactive or reactive, and how well they will be able to deal with an array of decentralized groups. Its possible they could try and intimidate the Somalis out of the game, but judging from the fact that less than twenty-four hours after three of the pirates were killed by the Navy snipers and one had been captured four more ships were taken in the Gulf of Aden, these fellows seem pretty ballsy. I guess we'll see how it plays out. And we'll see how their trial plays out too: 

BBC NEWS | Africa | Piracy symptom of bigger problem


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## gangleri (Apr 16, 2009)

ahh, double posts like crazy today.


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## gangleri (Apr 16, 2009)

Also, a BBC article discussing more in depth the piracy issue:

BBC NEWS | Africa | Piracy symptom of bigger problem


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## IBRRHOBO (Apr 16, 2009)

My problem is that when you start to make leeway for the Somalis, as seems to be the crux of the arguement, then you open the door for others. Here's a map, data, background and real-time information on just how widespread this is:

Piracy Map 2008

So, if the 'pirates' were just attacking the big, bad US and first world countires, then I wouldn't approve of it, but ok. However, they are not. These folks are attacking EVERYONE! And there's the problem. You can't cut slack to some as you invite demise upon yourself. By the way, the Somalis have been 'polite' so far; here I also have a problem as I'm not really the one to try and extort from nor are most rail riders, but you will notice in this piracy video that these pirates have NO qualms in murdering people in the first minute or so:

How to steal a ship - Seajacking and Phantom Ships


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## veggieguy12 (Apr 17, 2009)

gangleri said:


> ...these fellows seem pretty ballsy.



"Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose."
-Janis Joplin


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## IBRRHOBO (Apr 17, 2009)

veggieguy12 said:


> "Freedom's just another word for nothin' left to lose."
> -Janis Joplin


 
Now here's something that we can all see eye-to-eye on. Revolution, based upon the people's will, I'm all for. And in light of the miserable failures in Somalia (take a look at the recent UN and Amnesty reports) I wouldn't blame the folks there AND elsewhere as far as that goes.

The pirate's motivation down there, though, are questionable at best. I know most folks take the intel out of there as biased; however, it all points to the fact that they are enriching themselves (both by armements and decadence) and the warlords they serve and supressing/stiffling ALL opposition.

Yeah, like the quote there vg12!


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## dirty_rotten_squatter (Apr 17, 2009)

Well i don't know too much but didnt the u.s.shoot up over a hundred of them? I'd be pissed of too man. I say good for them honestly. If i were in their shoes I'd go black beard johnny depp on their ass too man.


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