# Bernie Sanders



## Coywolf

**Disclaimer**

I know this site is mainly anarchist minded, I'm not trying to advocate for, or against, any type of government or candidate.

****************

That being said. This guy, Bernie Sanders, is probably one of the most genuine political figures I have ever seen in this country. I've been paying attention to him since 2015, and the shit this man has to say is pretty incredible.

Medicare for all, socializing higher education, ending LGBTQ discrimination, ending cultural/finanacial misogyny, taking big money out of politics...

The guy was hit with a fire hose multiple times in the civil rights/women's rights protests, just saying.

Curious what others on here think about this guy....

DISCUSS!


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## blank

If he had gotten a fair shake in 2016 I think we might have a different president now. Lot of news outlets went out of their way to ignore him in favor of Clinton, to the point where lots of people did the same as me and just didn't vote. I mean what was I going to do, vote for the candidate who got shoved down my throat?

His platform is nice and consistent over time with a relatively solid basis in established economic theory and objective reality. Except now he's an almost 80 year old man who just had a heart attack, so his choice of VP would be a pretty major thing. Just in case. Sanders/Warren?


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## Coywolf

blank said:


> Just in case. Sanders/Warren?



Yes. 100% I like Warren too, but the fact that she was a Repiblican for most of her life kinda turns me off of her being the frontrunner pick. But ya. Very good point. I think whoever he would choose as a VP would be very sound.


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## Deleted member 26656

Coywolf said:


> Yes. 100% I like Warren too, but the fact that she was a Repiblican for most of her life kinda turns me off of her being the frontrunner pick. But ya. Very good point. I think whoever he would choose as a VP would be very sound.


She was a Republican? Weird..


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## Desperado Deluxe

Not a fan personally. I don't believe I should have to pay more taxes for rich white kids to go to school and run up a planned parenthood bill. As for "taking big money out of politics" all his funding comes from big money in an attempt to sway politics. I don't believe in socialism period. Its basically modern fuedalism. Reserving more for the already rich and handing chump change to disenfranchised minorities with no real hope or opportunity to acquire wealth to transcend their situation. Socialism is totally bogus and the opposite of anarchism because it gives the government too much control. Just another politician nothing more nothing less.


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## Dmac

Sanders also applauded the socialist takeover of the Venezuelan government. believed the u.s. should do the same. Once the wealthiest country in South America Now they have mass starvation and exodus as a consequence of the socialist policies enacted by Chavez and then Madura. Policies designed to end the income gap. Widespread nationalization of private industry, currency and price control and huge expansion of welfare. Sound familiar? It didn’t work out for them, think it will be different here? Oh and the government started locking up anyone who spoke out against it, took them about 5 or 6 years before they started, but they got good at it fast.


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## Coywolf

Desperado Deluxe said:


> Not a fan personally. I don't believe I should have to pay more taxes for rich white kids to go to school and run up a planned parenthood bill. As for "taking big money out of politics" all his funding comes from big money in an attempt to sway politics. I don't believe in socialism period. Its basically modern fuedalism. Reserving more for the already rich and handing chump change to disenfranchised minorities with no real hope or opportunity to acquire wealth to transcend their situation. Socialism is totally bogus and the opposite of anarchism because it gives the government too much control. Just another politician nothing more nothing less.



...ok. I'm really going to have to ask where you are getting your information from.

Sanders in the ONLY democratic candidate that has refused corporate funding...and that fact is easily searchable, as you can google it in any aspect.

Also, I would like to say that your definition of socialism may be a bit skewed towards communism...which it is not.

Further more, being a democratic socialist is far different from being a total socialist. A total socialist government is borderline authoritarianism, and I would agre with you in that fact.

Sanders has proposed policies that redirect tax income that would benefit the working class, rather than spend billions on wars in foreign countries for our 'interest', and would expand social programs instead of locking up minorities and migrants in cages.



Desperado Deluxe said:


> handing chump change to disenfranchised minorities with no real hope or opportunity to acquire wealth to transcend their situation.



I'm not even sure what to say about this...it basically says that you dont believe these groups of people deserve a fair shake in society....which is borderline fascism...



Desperado Deluxe said:


> Socialism is totally bogus and the opposite of anarchism because it gives the government too much control.



Pretty sure we went over this in this thread:
Anarchy is actually far right | Squat the Planet - https://squattheplanet.com/threads/anarchy-is-actually-far-right.32988/



Desperado Deluxe said:


> Just another politician nothing more nothing less



Lastly, if you are going to state that the opinions this person has are borderline the same with Trump, McConnel, Hillary Clinton, Pelosi, or Schumer....you are either a lobbyist, or have obviously not been paying attention.


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## David1

I think Bernie belongs in Vermont and if he becomes president The Green Mountain State will lose a good man. The job will probably kill him due to the stress. Just look and before and after pics of most of the presidents.


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## blank

Dmac said:


> Sanders also applauded the socialist takeover of the Venezuelan government. believed the u.s. should do the same. Once the wealthiest country in South America Now they have mass starvation and exodus as a consequence of the socialist policies enacted by Chavez and then Madura. Policies designed to end the income gap. Widespread nationalization of private industry, currency and price control and huge expansion of welfare. Sound familiar? It didn’t work out for them, think it will be different here? Oh and the government started locking up anyone who spoke out against it, took them about 5 or 6 years before they started, but they got good at it fast.


Kind of ignores that every single industrialized nation on the planet has socialized things. Large part of Venezuela's woes are from oil too. More complicated than a news snippet.


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## Deleted member 24029

...with all due respect to the 'Wolf, I may have to recuse myself from this debate...I know Bernie, we've disagreed some, and he once called the cops on me (you know how antiwar protests get).


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## blank

Desperado Deluxe said:


> Not a fan personally. I don't believe I should have to pay more taxes for rich white kids to go to school and run up a planned parenthood bill. As for "taking big money out of politics" all his funding comes from big money in an attempt to sway politics. I don't believe in socialism period. Its basically modern fuedalism. Reserving more for the already rich and handing chump change to disenfranchised minorities with no real hope or opportunity to acquire wealth to transcend their situation. Socialism is totally bogus and the opposite of anarchism because it gives the government too much control. Just another politician nothing more nothing less.


You need to hit up a dictionary and Snopes or something, man. That's a lot of just straight up bad information.


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## Coywolf

Dmac said:


> Sanders also applauded the socialist takeover of the Venezuelan government. believed the u.s. should do the same. Once the wealthiest country in South America Now they have mass starvation and exodus as a consequence of the socialist policies enacted by Chavez and then Madura. Policies designed to end the income gap. Widespread nationalization of private industry, currency and price control and huge expansion of welfare. Sound familiar? It didn’t work out for them, think it will be different here? Oh and the government started locking up anyone who spoke out against it, took them about 5 or 6 years before they started, but they got good at it fast.



Again. There is a huge difference here. Sanders is not lobbying for a government takeover of systems that provide a healthy economy. 

Healthcare is the single most reason most middle/lower class people are in debt. If you can argue why the private insurance companies should continue to be able to charge INSANE amounts of money to keep you alive, and charge that to the American taxpayers (under medicare/medicade)....I'll be listening.

The problem in South America is that public control went too far. Sanders isint for a totally socialist government. Democratic socialism is a completely different system. It would not eliminate capitalism, only keep the greed hungry capitalists in check.

Example: oil/gas industries that have ruined our planet. Public utility companies (which have now turned into corporate machines denying electricity, internet, and heat to citizens in this country. Those are essentially basic necessities in today's world), lending and mortgage companies, ect.


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## Coywolf

Bey said:


> ...with all due respect to the 'Wolf, I may have to recuse myself from this debate...I know Bernie, we've disagreed some, and he once called the cops on me (you know how antiwar protests get).



Now I'm curious. Especially how you and him disagreed during a protest. That dude has always been on the right side of a protest from what I've seen.


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## Coywolf

@Dmac you are right though, he did support that takeover. However it was the CIA who implemented many of those leaders in SA...mainly do to the fact they would agree with the drug war they had implemented after regan....so....not sure ang of that had any real goal of change to their countries.....more of subservience to ours...


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## Deleted member 24029

'Wolf, I was protesting his "yes" vote on sending arms to Israel. As an (atheistic) Jewish person myself I have always been for an antiwar solution there...


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## Coywolf

Desperado Deluxe said:


> I don't believe I should have to pay more taxes for rich white kids to go to school and run up a planned parenthood bill.



Woah. Fucking WOAH! I didnt catch this part at first....are you serious? Are you REALLY saying that, rich white kids, who would have the only option of going to Planned Parenthood, would run up Bill's to your taxes to you because they have no other option?!

Holy fuck dude. How much Rush Limbaugh you been listening to?

I dont mean to be an asshole about it, but jesus. You've been here for a long time. You cant be serious with that argument.


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## Coywolf

@Bey ya, I agree with you. We are all seeing how that was a terrible decision now.

However, he has since come out as one of the only people against the 'Isreal or bust' mentality in today's government.

I'm pretty sure members of Trumps cabinet have called him 'anti semetic' because of it....which is hilarious, being that he is jewish


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## roughdraft

i wonder if this thread will be an actual discussion or just devolve quickly into a bunch of emotional fingerpointing....


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## Deleted member 26656

blank said:


> Kind of ignores that every single industrialized nation on the planet has socialized things. Large part of Venezuela's woes are from oil too. More complicated than a news snippet.


Oh my God this dude has absolutely no clue what he is talking about.
hey homie Venezuela's problems are actually due to the United States sanctions we're literally billions of dollars are sitting in a bank that should be going to Venezuela from all the oil that they sold in the United States.


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## Deleted member 26656

Desperado Deluxe said:


> Not a fan personally. I don't believe I should have to pay more taxes for rich white kids to go to school and run up a planned parenthood bill. As for "taking big money out of politics" all his funding comes from big money in an attempt to sway politics. I don't believe in socialism period. Its basically modern fuedalism. Reserving more for the already rich and handing chump change to disenfranchised minorities with no real hope or opportunity to acquire wealth to transcend their situation. Socialism is totally bogus and the opposite of anarchism because it gives the government too much control. Just another politician nothing more nothing less.


this guy has absolutely no clue what he is talking about he's just spewing empty right-wing rhetoric that he heard on Fox news.
What's what's next, gays need to see a psychiatrist?


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## Deleted member 26656

N


Coywolf said:


> @Bey ya, I agree with you. We are all seeing how that was a terrible decision now.
> 
> However, he has since come out as one of the only people against the 'Isreal or bust' mentality in today's government.
> 
> I'm pretty sure members of Trumps cabinet have called him 'anti semetic' because of it....which is hilarious, being that he is jewish


Nah he still cow toes to Israel. At first he didn't though. Not so now.


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## Deleted member 26656

Dmac said:


> Sanders also applauded the socialist takeover of the Venezuelan government. believed the u.s. should do the same. Once the wealthiest country in South America Now they have mass starvation and exodus as a consequence of the socialist policies enacted by Chavez and then Madura. Policies designed to end the income gap. Widespread nationalization of private industry, currency and price control and huge expansion of welfare. Sound familiar? It didn’t work out for them, think it will be different here? Oh and the government started locking up anyone who spoke out against it, took them about 5 or 6 years before they started, but they got good at it fast.


Oh man this makes me so sick to see you spewing this empty rhetoric. the fact of the matter is that they are going through starvation in Mass Exodus because of sanctions which have been imposed upon him by the United States. You do realize that the gas company citgo is a state-owned Venezuelan company, right? And you do realize that there are literally billions of dollars sitting in banks that should be redirected to Venezuela right? This is the sole sole reason why Venezuela is suffering so much right now. but all of your buddies at Fox news there are not going to tell you that.


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## Coywolf

Dude, the reason Venezula is fucked right now does have to do with us owing the government money. But mainly has to do with th leader, that we helped put in office, bankrupted the country through not knowing shit about how economics works. Seriously.



Travelisinvigorating said:


> N
> 
> Nah he still cow toes to Israel. At first he didn't though. Not so now.



You have that backwards. Sanders just introduced a bill that would withhold any further funding to Isreal unless they stopped supporting wars in the reason, and discontinued their annexation of the west bank.


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## Deleted member 26656

Coywolf said:


> Dude, the reason Venezula is fucked right now does have to do with us owing the government money. But mainly has to do with th leader, that we helped put in office, bankrupted the country through not knowing shit about how economics works. Seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> You have that backwards. Sanders just introduced a bill that would withhold any further funding to Isreal unless they stopped supporting wars in the reason, and discontinued their annexation of the west bank.


Oh pardon, I misread that, thought you were talking about Trump, this comment is supposed to be above btw... having trouble here


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## Coywolf

roughdraft said:


> i wonder if this thread will be an actual discussion or just devolve quickly into a bunch of emotional fingerpointing....



Looks like a pretty good discussion so far. Have to wade through the misinformation.


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## Deleted member 26656

Coywolf 2020!


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## Deleted member 26656

Desperado Deluxe said:


> Not a fan personally. I don't believe I should have to pay more taxes for rich white kids to go to school and run up a planned parenthood bill. As for "taking big money out of politics" all his funding comes from big money in an attempt to sway politics. I don't believe in socialism period. Its basically modern fuedalism. Reserving more for the already rich and handing chump change to disenfranchised minorities with no real hope or opportunity to acquire wealth to transcend their situation. Socialism is totally bogus and the opposite of anarchism because it gives the government too much control. Just another politician nothing more nothing less.


You are a complete idiot and have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.


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## Deleted member 20

Bernie is my guy! He was in 2016 when I voted for him in the primary & then opted for Jill Stein in the main election after Bernie had terminated his election. *My goal was to try to help the Green party get enough votes to qualify for the fund matching program from the FEC. I am still team Bernie and all though most of us on STP may identify further left of his politics; he will be a respite for our democracy. I have donated meager donations to both 2016/2020 campaigns and pray that the field continues to shrink and or Biden implodes to help consolidate his position while convincing more traditional democrats that we desperately need radical/revolutionary change. Trump is still very dangerous but then again so is status quo of Biden and all Republicans. Drastic change is needed. We need a green new deal. The doomsday clock ticks...


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## blank

Travelisinvigorating said:


> Oh my God this dude has absolutely no clue what he is talking about.
> hey homie Venezuela's problems are actually due to the United States sanctions we're literally billions of dollars are sitting in a bank that should be going to Venezuela from all the *oil* that they sold in the United States.


Depending on oil revenue is a bad plan.


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## roughdraft

Travelisinvigorating said:


> You are a complete idiot and have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.



not that you asked me but it's a much bigger impact if you can insult people more constructively!


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## Coywolf

Travelisinvigorating said:


> You are a complete idiot and have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.



Ok, we get the point. Let's try to keep this conversation civil.


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## Coywolf

Juan Derlust said:


> As much as I approve of Bernie's positions, how realistically do y'all figure his chances are of winning a) the Democratic primary election & b) the general election next November?



This is major argument from most moderate Democrats. 

The issue here is that change will only happen if you make it happen., And Sanders has an incredible grass roots campaign going on right now. #1 in the polls for both young (<30) and minority voters at the moment. So ya, the issue here is whether the DNC fucks UA again and gives us Biden. Which they are still trying to do despite national polls which show him losing support daily.

Those bullshit polls on MSNBC, CNN, and FAUX are doctored, or they are polling upper class white people over the age of 50.

In a general election against trump? Ya Bernie would crush. Yet again, almost every single independent poll says this, including the ones from FAUX.


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## Deleted member 26656

Coywolf said:


> Ok, we get the point. Let's try to keep this conversation civil.


Sorry


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## BradKajukenbo

From a Republican stand point, I would like to see Sanders win the Democrat nomination. If anyone has a chance at beating Trump, Sanders would do it.


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## David1

Somebody here please run for president or some public office, I would run but I have slept with one too many strippers and dont have the cash or lawyer to pay them off to keep quiet.


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## deathrehearsal

Dmac said:


> Sanders also applauded the socialist takeover of the Venezuelan government. believed the u.s. should do the same. Once the wealthiest country in South America Now they have mass starvation and exodus as a consequence of the socialist policies enacted by Chavez and then Madura. Policies designed to end the income gap. Widespread nationalization of private industry, currency and price control and huge expansion of welfare. Sound familiar? It didn’t work out for them, think it will be different here? Oh and the government started locking up anyone who spoke out against it, took them about 5 or 6 years before they started, but they got good at it fast.



I’ve heard this take regurgitated so many times and the more I hear it the less sense it makes.

In addition to wide spread corruption, Venezuela’s natural resources have been picked apart by capitalists for decades, local worker force abused and paid a pittance and when the feeding frenzy ended they pulled out and left them in their current state which has little to do with socialism. 

If you want an example of the type of social democracy the US could and would become, take a look at Finland. 
—————————————————————
Anyway, Bernie Sanders has some solid ideas. As far as I know he is the only candidate with a comprehensive global environmental plan. His healthcare plan is on point, pro union, Etc. He’s one of only two left wing candidate whose policy as a whole is left leaning imo, the rest of the field are centrists running as dems.

Andrew Yang has some unique ideas also the most popular being a $1000 per month allowance for every person age 18-65, in response to job automation. The idea is that within the next fifteen years a massive amount of jobs will disappear to advancing technology and the people who benefit from that financially will be taxed to fund the allowance. He discusses it in depth here;


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## Coywolf

I hear so many people talking about Yang. I should check out his proposals. Unfortunately, I dont think he will have enough support to come out on top in this race, but would be an excellent choice for a cabinet pick for whoever does.


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## Desperado Deluxe

Coywolf said:


> ...ok. I'm really going to have to ask where you are getting your information from.
> 
> Sanders in the ONLY democratic candidate that has refused corporate funding...and that fact is easily searchable, as you can google it in any aspect.
> 
> Also, I would like to say that your definition of socialism may be a bit skewed towards communism...which it is not.
> 
> Further more, being a democratic socialist is far different from being a total socialist. A total socialist government is borderline authoritarianism, and I would agre with you in that fact.
> 
> Sanders has proposed policies that redirect tax income that would benefit the working class, rather than spend billions on wars in foreign countries for our 'interest', and would expand social programs instead of locking up minorities and migrants in cages.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not even sure what to say about this...it basically says that you dont believe these groups of people deserve a fair shake in society....which is borderline fascism...
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty sure we went over this in this thread:
> Anarchy is actually far right | Squat the Planet - https://squattheplanet.com/threads/anarchy-is-actually-far-right.32988/
> 
> 
> 
> Lastly, if you are going to state that the opinions this person has are borderline the same with Trump, McConnel, Hillary Clinton, Pelosi, or Schumer....you are either a lobbyist, or have obviously not been paying attention.


That first whole part is a bunch of fucking gibberish based on uncertain relativities.
Fuck you for cutting my sentance short and misconstruing its meaning that's some typical MSNBC shit. 
As for "lobbyist" don't you work for a tax funded bueracracy? I'm a squatter/construction worker you do the math pal.
I'm pretty sure I just want to live my fucking life and work without some publicly funded stoog fucking me around.
Its really that simple.


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## roughdraft

It's all so tiresome

Sanders has a better *idea* of what to do and how to work it out.

On one hand it's 'probably' the same old song n dance, on the other "well you gotta vote him in to find out!". The entire system is so rotten. 

Look at what they did to Ralph Nader, and don't tell me "oh well that was 20 years ago" that's nothing.

I'd like to read more from @Bey on this topic, but that is up to them. All I know is that it doesn't surprise me what they have to say - that Sanders approved some fucked up shit that got fucked up, 

So here's my question - Will there EVER be a presidential candidate who can meaningfully alter the entire system? Or even a significant portion of it? I've gotta think no, the system is the problem and hoping-hoping-hoping for the right president is just chasing the dragon. 

Who said "Get people asking the wrong questions and you don't have to worry about what answers they may find"


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## Deleted member 24029

roughdraft said:


> It's all so tiresome
> 
> Sanders has a better *idea* of what to do and how to work it out.
> 
> On one hand it's 'probably' the same old song n dance, on the other "well you gotta vote him in to find out!". The entire system is so rotten.
> 
> Look at what they did to Ralph Nader, and don't tell me "oh well that was 20 years ago" that's nothing.
> 
> I'd like to read more from @Bey on this topic, but that is up to them. All I know is that it doesn't surprise me what they have to say - that Sanders approved some fucked up shit that got fucked up,
> 
> So here's my question - Will there EVER be a presidential candidate who can meaningfully alter the entire system? Or even a significant portion of it? I've gotta think no, the system is the problem and hoping-hoping-hoping for the right president is just chasing the dragon.
> 
> Who said "Get people asking the wrong questions and you don't have to worry about what answers they may find"


OK...by request, then, here's the story: I was doing antiwar activism in 2009, in Burlington, VT (where Sanders' office is). I was writing about my opposition to the US' financial support for Israel's military (and Bernie's votes in favor of Israeli warfare), when the local police showed up at the apartment. They informed me that I was under Federal investigation, at the request of Sanders, by the U.S. Capitol Police (who has jurisdiction over threats to the lives of Congressmen). The Feds had asked the municipal cops to do the actual investigating after they determined that, upon review of my writing and actions, there did not appear to be any crime with which I could be charged. They informed Sanders of this, and then sent the local police, when he insisted that I continue to be investigated as a "threat to national security". Slightly doubting this story, I checked with Bernie 's staff, and the Capitol police, and verified it. Bernie believed I was a dangerous anarchist who should be jailed for criticizing his pro-war voting. Apparently, he does not take disagreement well. Subsequent to this, I've been told be people with whom he founded the old Liberty Union Party, that he always had this trait....


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## roughdraft

thank you @Bey 

this anecdote pretty much confirms my suspicions that he - not much unlike Trump or any other politician - is all talk - trying to appeal to a certain panorama of demographics for the almighty taste of power.


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## blank

I don't know how much you should let an anecdote reinforce any particular view.


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## roughdraft

blank said:


> I don't know how much you should let an anecdote reinforce any particular view.



i dig, in a general way - but if an anecdote is a mere continuation of the pattern of hollowheaded corrupt political hoo-ha ? what else do we have to go on? ignoring the anecdote could be considered as denial, which is a very destructive force


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## blank

Anything that is not "oh I agree" could be considered denial tho, it's about that happy balance, which in this case I would call just looking at his voting record.


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## Deleted member 24029

blank said:


> Anything that is not "oh I agree" could be considered denial tho, it's about that happy balance, which in this case I would call just looking at his voting record.


...Just wanted to break in here and say that, ironically, it was looking at his voting record that landed me on the "no fly" list, in the first place...!


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## blank

I just never pass up an opportunity to say no to anecdotes. It's a compulsion from growing up in a tiny rural area where everything is based on anecdotes. It's not a good method.


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## Coywolf

Desperado Deluxe said:


> That first whole part is a bunch of fucking gibberish based on uncertain relativities.
> Fuck you for cutting my sentance short and misconstruing its meaning that's some typical MSNBC shit.
> As for "lobbyist" don't you work for a tax funded bueracracy? I'm a squatter/construction worker you do the math pal.
> I'm pretty sure I just want to live my fucking life and work without some publicly funded stoog fucking me around.
> Its really that simple.



Aw, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, bud.

Look, let's just agree to disagree. I just cant get behind alot of the things you are saying. I will never understand the majority of the conservative arguement.

@Bey I'm having a very hard time believing that Sanders started an investigation into you based on a threat to national security with no just cause, based entirely on a peaceful protest. Is there more to this story?

No offense, but then again, my brother was arrested and questioned by the FBI for threatening Obama's life in a conversation in a bar.


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## Coywolf

Also, @roughdraft you have to realize that incident was in 2009. Its 2019.

As far as 'he is all talk', after producing bills to end Citizens United, create The ACA, ending our funding to Israel and Saudi Arabia....and supporting the Violence against Women act, Obama era environmental protection, Wall Street/Corporate/bank oversight, voting against almost every military conflict in his lifetime...

I'm not sure you should jump to conclusions based upon a single anecdote....which is what @blank was saying


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## Deleted member 24029

Coywolf said:


> Aw, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, bud.
> 
> @Bey I'm having a very hard time believing that Sanders started an investigation into you based on a threat to national security with no just cause, based entirely on a peaceful protest. Is there more to this story?
> 
> No offense, but then again, my brother was arrested and questioned by the FBI for threatening Obama's life in a conversation in a bar.


I think, honestly, the explanation may lie in the fact that Bernie, being the former mayor of Burlington and still working in the town, had/has people around him that know me from this area. I do have a reputation for being...what can we call it?...an extremist? The kind of person that one is either really happy (or really NOT) to see show up at an event. Relatedly, my daughter, in Manhattan, was once left by a boyfriend (a Navy Ensign stationed in NYC) after he said that his Commander briefed him on who I am (they were living together and that alone constituted an OPSEC problem?). So, I'll admit to being the crazy anarchist fucker, if that helps this discussion...


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## Coywolf

Naw, it doesnt matter if you are a crazy anarchist tucker or not, that's pretty bad if he did spearhead an investigation against you. Definitely helps in the understanding of why it happened, though.


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## Deleted member 20

In regards to part of the above post by @Juan Derlust
and to be fair to @creature who got deleted actually posted like 2/3 of that thread. It brings up a common belief held everywhere.

Its been suggested that one doesnt talk about politics, religion or sex/money at a bar, at work and that also crosses over perfectly into AA meetings, the dinner table and just about everywhere. Online forums could also be forbidden depending on what the forum is about. But if we cannot have civil discourse about that which could be considered taboo here at STP; then where else can we find a safe space? I feel comfortable with my political stance & believe that I will stand on the just side of history with my limited voting history & opinions. Its nice to be reminded of my past post about Bernie in 2015/2016 and to know that I still believe/agree in what I posted then while still feeling very troubled about the state of the world today.

I feel safe discussing Bernie on STP and it always amazes me when people disclose snippets of their belief systems & politics IRL. I recall seeing mostly normal acquaintances as peers until learning about their inner desires when learning that they support/supported/are supporting Trump. Its really hard to rekindle a friendship once you know someone supports such evil ideologies. Almost 4 years post Trump winning; I still held hope that those I mentioned could have been duped, misinformed, desperate or confused prior to Trump being elected. Still with a naive glimmer of hope for one time peers/friends/family/acquaintances that after several years of Trump; how could they still stand behind their vote. Sadly many have doubled down on that style of politics and want more of it. Perhaps we should publicly disclose what we believe in more often to protect those around us from being tricked that they/we are all decent, just, ethical & or moral. Perhaps if we do or don't fuel hate and or harbor desire for an unjust, immoral and evil world or its opposite we should carry such clear labels on our heads. Those "maga" hats were a great idea so that I can now effectively see my enemy counterparts more clearly & effectively.


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## Coywolf

highwayman said:


> In regards to part of the above post by @Juan Derlust
> and to be fair to @creature who got deleted actually posted like 2/3 of that thread. It brings up a common belief held everywhere.
> 
> Its been suggested that one doesnt talk about politics, religion or sex/money at a bar, at work and that also crosses over perfectly into AA meetings, the dinner table and just about everywhere. Online forums could also be forbidden depending on what the forum is about. But if we cannot have civil discourse about that which could be considered taboo here at STP; then where else can we find a safe space? I feel comfortable with my political stance & believe that I will stand on the just side of history with my limited voting history & opinions. Its nice to be reminded of my past post about Bernie in 2015/2016 and to know that I still believe/agree in what I posted then while still feeling very troubled about the state of the world today.
> 
> I feel safe discussing Bernie on STP and it always amazes me when people disclose snippets of their belief systems & politics IRL. I recall seeing mostly normal acquaintances as peers until learning first about their inner desires when learning that they support/supported/supporting Trump. Its really hard to rekindle a friendship once you know someone supports such evil ideologies. Almost 4 years post Trump winning; I still held hope that those I mentioned could have been duped, misinformed, desperate or confused prior to Trump being elected. Still with a naive glimmer of hope for one time peers/friends/family/acquaintances that after several years of Trump could now in no way could they still stand behind their vote. Sadly many have doubled down on that style of politics and want more of it. Perhaps we should publicly disclose what we believe in more often to protect those around us from being tricked that they/we are all decent, just, ethical, moral. Perhaps if we do or don't fuel hate and or harbor desire for an unjust, immoral and evil world or its opposite we should carry such clear labels on our heads. Those "maga" hats were a great idea so that I can now effectively see my enemy counterparts more clearly & effectively.



HARD AGREE.


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## roughdraft

blank said:


> Anything that is not "oh I agree" could be considered denial tho, it's about that happy balance, which in this case I would call just looking at his voting record.



it *is* sorta about a happy balance isn't it? 

between our own biases, hopes or "wishful thinking", and the objective reality we try to grasp onto, which is in some cases more difficult to define than others,


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## Desperado Deluxe

Look I'm not here to preach my politics to anyone. I'm just saying I don't agree. And just because I don't agree with you doesn't make you my enemy. 
As a disclaimer I'd like to say that my viewpoints are entirely reactionary to my experience. And before I would have probably agreed with you but now I don't.


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## Deleted member 20

Desperado Deluxe said:


> Look I'm not here to preach my politics to anyone. I'm just saying I don't agree. And just because I don't agree with you doesn't make you my enemy.
> As a disclaimer I'd like to say that my viewpoints are entirely reactionary to my experience. And before I would have probably agreed with you but now I don't.



I think you could be right about us not being outright enemies as we do not know or interact with each other enough to be completely sure. Just as, if someone may agree with the majority of my political beliefs that won't automatically make us friends, allies or comrades. Personalities or disagreeing on singular issues can also make us forget all of the other issues where we are in solidarity together. Many of us tend to lurk in the grey areas publicly while keeping our most radical beliefs private. One great part about STP is that it can be a haven for radical thought & action of a certain far left flavor. Much of what many believe here is way left of left & I like it. One can probably deduce from my posts is that my radical beliefs can & do differ greatly then those whom I may have so easily described as my enemy.
Maybe none of us are enemies and we are all but opposing co-conspirators in the same broken system? (likely)

Some may have voted Trump and still affirm that they are still "good" people. Just as Obama is hailed as a saint by many in spite of his drone war, mass deportations, foreign policy & renewing the Patriot Act. I think Donald Trump is evil and while our thread is about Bernie Sanders it is very hard to have any discussion while not examining the current alternatives. The world is not simply black or white, right or wrong & or good or bad. Our society is always learning/evolving & or forgetting/regressing from our shared checkered history. With Bernie I strongly doubt that the 80yo version of me will ever need to say "I didn't know, I was just following orders" or regret my voting for him twice. But only time will tell. Maybe, just as they who elected Obama got some good with his included bad; we will all be similarly just as culpable yet not responsible after this next presidency.


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## David1

I want to see a debate with someone representing capitalism on one side and socilism on the other, Bernie vs Trump would be a start because as far as the US goes we want to best of both and not the responsibilities.


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## feralautistic

I'm looking around wondering where the radicals are... 

For real tho bernie isn't going to make this country not fascist


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## Deleted member 26656

blank said:


> Anything that is not "oh I agree" could be considered denial tho, it's about that happy balance, which in this case I would call just looking at his voting record.


What is his voting record anyways? Can you please provide us with some examples?


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## David1

Bernie was a start to push back corporate Democrats and bring back the populist left which has been MIA since George Mcgovern in 1969 and before that 1930 something. Trump was push back the religious right neocons in favor of the populist right which has not MIA since Barry Goldwater in about 1969 something and before that 1930 something. What should happen is that more follow in there footsteps so we do not return to middle of the road men whose mouths move but say and do nothing.


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## Maxnomad

Desperado Deluxe said:


> And just because I don't agree with you doesn't make you my enemy.



It does more than that, it destroys families. It drives people into the sonoran desert to survive or die


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## Maxnomad

Sanders is terrain. Voting is a tactic, if you play it as strategy you're shooting yourself, and me, in the foot


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## Coywolf

@Travelisinvigorating 

I have given you a bit of his voting record, if you want the whole thing just google Bernie Sanders and go to the Wiki page about him

I get it, I know this wont be any sort of major transition for this country. It is a capitalist war driven economy, and not alot can fix that, minus some sort of global upset.

But damn, if given a choice between Trump, who is literally pushing fascism, Biden, who won't do a damn thing, and Sanders, who is actually pushing to change the big money influence in politics, I'm definitely voting for the latter.

Our 'democracy', or 'republic' is a joke. I know.


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## Maxnomad

@Coywolf, surprised you disagree. Are you pushing for voting and nothing but voting?


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## Maxnomad

Fish sauce? Wtf?

This is what i mean when i say voting for bernie is tactically sound. @Bey's story indicates why bernie cannot be part of a long term strategy for liberation, but his being beholden to an institution that takes the money it forces you to rely on in order to kill people youve never met and have no issue with ought to be reason enough. Bernie is terrain to most of us because we have never met him. He is literally a concept to us, with the exception of bey to the beat of my knowledge. Terrain. Strategy. Tactics. You fools need to read some sun tzu
https://theintercept.com/2019/11/07...o9PeiMrP7Z_AE-zdl1Mh1hAwbDyK7qN8b6kxAsehZN_wc


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## Deleted member 20

I too cannot comprehend the fish sauce reference? As to me personally applying The Art of war tactics these days (in any situation) is highly doubtful. I have ceased fighting anything or anyone.I will defer most revolutionary action to those, decades younger than I. I have found my own small ways to exist in our broken world that are independent of who is President. One can still hope for better outcomes within a flawed/corrupt system while choosing best available options. I do however still harbor hope for a better world for my 2 kids and dream that any world will be left to exist for their kids/grandkids. Just daily surviving with my sanity while being accountable/available to my family is often hard enough.


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## Deleted member 24029

Well...I guess I should probably weigh in, at this point, on what action to take respecting Sanders' candidacy. Taking the actually existing situation (viz., Bernie is running in a primary, at present), what you do, electorally, is determined by your analysis of the Democratic Party, i.e., if you feel you can ethically, principally vote within the Party, do so. However, if you object to that group, wait for your choice in the general election, proper; where, in all likelihood, Sanders will not appear on the ballot (as was the case in 2016). 
And, since the "anecdote" under discussion occurred years ago, I found a photo from that time ( at Occupy); I'm on the left in the IWW shirt...


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## Coywolf

Maxnomad said:


> @Coywolf, surprised you disagree. Are you pushing for voting and nothing but voting?



Sorry, I think I may have misinterpreted your post

And no, I believe in a hell of a lot more activism than voting.

I've had my hands in some monkeywrenching and environmental 'civil disobedience'

But I think that if you have a chance to change the system, do it. No matter what that may be.

Many people believe that not voting is activism. It is not, in my opinion. All you are doing in that case is not voicing your opinion.

Protests are great, I do it all the time, so is activism. But if you dont vote, shit wont get done, *in this current system we are forced to live in*

Like I've said before, I'm not a full fledged anarchist, I love almost everything about the philosophy, just not the 'Fuck it, let it burn, and let the universe sort it out'. And no, I'm not saying all Anarchists believe that, but many kids I talk to that say 'Ya, I dont vote, because, fuck the system, right?'

That's just stupid. Do something. Whether its volunteering for FNB once a month, civil disobedience, voting, or walking ducking dogs at the shelter.

My point is DO SOMETHING.

That is one of the reasons I stick around StP. Wonderful fucking people doing their best to better the amazing world we live in, no matter how messed up human beings make it.


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## Coywolf

Bey said:


> Well...I guess I should probably weigh in, at this point, on what action to take respecting Sanders' candidacy. Taking the actually existing situation (viz., Bernie is running in a primary, at present), what you do, electorally, is determined by your analysis of the Democratic Party, i.e., if you feel you can ethically, principally vote within the Party, do so. However, if you object to that group, wait for your choice in the general election, proper; where, in all likelihood, Sanders will not appear on the ballot (as was the case in 2016).
> And, since the "anecdote" under discussion occurred years ago, I found a photo from that time ( at Occupy); I'm on the left in the IWW shirt...
> View attachment 53380



Love it. That is essentially what needs to be said here. Political opinions are your opinions. Dont allow others to push you around.

The ONE THING about today's political climate is the anger, divisiveness, and the 'YOUR WRONG' mentality. I wish people could still think critically and research other ideas if they finnd them appealing. Also, I wish people could criticize without demeaning others.

Something that I did to @Desperado Deluxe without even thinking about it, and Iwould like to apologize for that.


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## Coywolf

And just to wrap that all together, that is the reason I support Sanders. Someone who will stand up for decency.

He may not be the best person, but if you are going to fight for climate change, income inequality, LGBTQ/Womens rights, rights to healthcare, protecting the environment, and spending government money on bettering people lives, rather than war, I will support you.

And I also dont like the fact that I am not for Warren's campaign. I want someone who is a POC or woman, or both, over any old white Male in office. However, she was a hardcore pro free-market capitalist for a very long time, and I just dont trust someone with that sort of history to continue running this country.


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## Muffin Mouth

I am gonna vote for him and I broke my piggy bank and donated $3 to his campaign. I trust he has the good sense to choose a rad VP in case he dies while in office. I understand he has made some mistakes in the past, but who hasn't? It seems like he is sincere in his struggle to improve himself and the state of our society. I'll still be an anarchist if he wins and I think its silly when people think voting cancels out ones anarchist ideals. To the people who say "the system won't let him win", yeah you might be right, but cheers to him for wanting to go out fighting.


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## blank

facepalm.jpg


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## Coywolf

ScarletMountain said:


> Oh guess my references are too lame ..anytime someone says something is “fishy” , in this case I was eluding to Bernie’s stance on global warming being fishy to me, it draws suspicion there are agendas at hand that have nothing to do with healing the planet but doing harm to it by propelling an idea that doesn’t exist



Can you eloborate....?


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## David1

All I know is that we can not keeping tearing down forests to build 16 lane superhighways and burn fossil fuels to get us to shopping malls/Walmarts that uses acres of asphalt for parking on land that was green farmland or forests that used to recycle the CO2


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## David1

A well run 2-4 track railroad can have a as much capacity as 6 lane freeway and take up way less room. The reason why the US went with freeways is that we had the room vs Europe which has a lot more density.


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## Dunia

The system of stochocracy has been proposed as an improved system compared to the system of representative democracy, where representatives are elected. Stochocracy aims to at least reduce this degradation by having all representatives appointed by lottery instead of by voting. Therefore, this system is also called lottocracy. The system was proposed by the writer Roger de Sizif in 1998 in his book La Stochocratie. Choosing officeholders by lot was also the standard practice in ancient Athenian democracy.[23] The rationale behind this practice was to avoid lobbying and electioneering by economic oligarchs.


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## David1

Dunia said:


> The system of stochocracy has been proposed as an improved system compared to the system of representative democracy, where representatives are elected. Stochocracy aims to at least reduce this degradation by having all representatives appointed by lottery instead of by voting. Therefore, this system is also called lottocracy. The system was proposed by the writer Roger de Sizif in 1998 in his book La Stochocratie. Choosing officeholders by lot was also the standard practice in ancient Athenian democracy.[23] The rationale behind this practice was to avoid lobbying and electioneering by economic oligarchs.


So public office would be like serving on jury duty?


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## Deleted member 26656

Travelisinvigorating said:


> Sorry


With respect, how on Earth did did I become the top poster of the month?


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## Maxnomad

Stochacracy jesus.christ

@ScarletMountain nearly everything youve said is, again, wrong. Distinguishing between right and wrong is of course incredibly difficult, because all knowledge rests on the unknowable, that which we cant prove merely by logical deduction and instead begins with, necessarily somatic, experience. This is why meditation as we understand it is an inherently physical practice, although its worth noting that "meditatsio" itself means to think, and that the majority of the buddhist traditions make only functional distinction between reading philosophy and focusing on sensation, points.in the body, the breath etc.

If youre inclined, try this. Sit in a stable, upright posture that can be comfortable enough for long periods of time, with your back straight, hands resting comfortably placing no strain on the shoulders, and head as if suspended by a string from the crown of the head. Focus on the sensation of alternating cool and warm in your nostrils as your breath comes and goes, or on your upper lip, or simply on the point between your eyebrows if you like. If your mind wants to wander, let it wander to physical sensations. Perhaps your back aches, or your butt is warm. If you can, soften these points of tension, in your back, brows, wherever. Continue as long as you can, but dont let yourself go nuts. Theres value in sitting w and experiencing frustration, but not w winding yourself up. This is one method of coming to know your 'self', which is necessary before you can reliably know anything else


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## Coywolf

@ScarletMountain 

Some of the things you said above are true, some arent.

Mainly the part about the polar ice caps and polar bears. Glacier national park has posted photographic evidence of glaciers disappearing for the past 40 years.

I cant drive into this further into this now as I'm currently on a train. I'll get back to this.


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## Coywolf

@Phuen you do realize there is a "disagree" reaction, right?


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## Deleted member 26656

Maxnomad said:


> Stochacracy jesus.christ
> 
> @ScarletMountain nearly everything youve said is, again, wrong. Distinguishing between right and wrong is of course incredibly difficult, because all knowledge rests on the unknowable, that which we cant prove merely by logical deduction and instead begins with, necessarily somatic, experience. This is why meditation as we understand it is an inherently physical practice, although its worth noting that "meditatsio" itself means to think, and that the majority of the buddhist traditions make only functional distinction between reading philosophy and focusing on sensation, points.in the body, the breath etc.
> 
> If youre inclined, try this. Sit in a stable, upright posture that can be comfortable enough for long periods of time, with your back straight, hands resting comfortably placing no strain on the shoulders, and head as if suspended by a string from the crown of the head. Focus on the sensation of alternating cool and warm in your nostrils as your breath comes and goes, or on your upper lip, or simply on the point between your eyebrows if you like. If your mind wants to wander, let it wander to physical sensations. Perhaps your back aches, or your butt is warm. If you can, soften these points of tension, in your back, brows, wherever. Continue as long as you can, but dont let yourself go nuts. Theres value in sitting w and experiencing frustration, but not w winding yourself up. This is one method of coming to know your 'self', which is necessary before you can reliably know anything else


Have fun in your transindental state, while the Earth is dieing.


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## Deleted member 26656

Maxnomad said:


> Stochacracy jesus.christ
> 
> @ScarletMountain nearly everything youve said is, again, wrong. Distinguishing between right and wrong is of course incredibly difficult, because all knowledge rests on the unknowable, that which we cant prove merely by logical deduction and instead begins with, necessarily somatic, experience. This is why meditation as we understand it is an inherently physical practice, although its worth noting that "meditatsio" itself means to think, and that the majority of the buddhist traditions make only functional distinction between reading philosophy and focusing on sensation, points.in the body, the breath etc.
> 
> If youre inclined, try this. Sit in a stable, upright posture that can be comfortable enough for long periods of time, with your back straight, hands resting comfortably placing no strain on the shoulders, and head as if suspended by a string from the crown of the head. Focus on the sensation of alternating cool and warm in your nostrils as your breath comes and goes, or on your upper lip, or simply on the point between your eyebrows if you like. If your mind wants to wander, let it wander to physical sensations. Perhaps your back aches, or your butt is warm. If you can, soften these points of tension, in your back, brows, wherever. Continue as long as you can, but dont let yourself go nuts. Theres value in sitting w and experiencing frustration, but not w winding yourself up. This is one method of coming to know your 'self', which is necessary before you can reliably know anything else


Pretty sure this has nothing to do with Bernie Sanders..


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## blank

So this topic now has one person saying there is photographic evidence that ice caps are melting, and one saying there is photographic evidence that they are expanding. This really sums up the central problem with our society right now. People can't agree on even baseline facts, they just believe whatever they see that feels right to them.

Currently, during winter months, the ice caps are expanding at an above average speed. That is correct, but it's also a facile argument used by people who don't believe in the scientific process because the increased freeze speed during winter months is dramatically more than offset by the increased thawing in summer months.

So the "they are expanding" argument holds about as much water as the much maligned "how can there be global warming if it's cold outside today?"

We have to work on being a little less gullible, culturally. The temptation to be the one "in the know" and different from all the "sheeple" must be overwhelming but if you believe something that the scientific consensus overwhelmingly casts doubt on you have to at least be a little open minded to the possibility that you're wrong.

These weird arguments about how the ice caps are expanding, solar and wind are bad, the newish "well something is happening but I doubt the consensus on anthropogenic climate change" all come from people whose background is in PR, not climatology. They get paid a ton of money by special interest groups to come up with arguments they think people might fall for, then they put the phrases or arguments through focus groups, then if they do well they have people say them on the news.

tl;dr pretty sure they're melting


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## Maxnomad

@Travelisinvigorating transcendence is a stupid concept, because there is no where in particular to transcend to. If you were to transcend to somewhere, you would be somewhere, and hence not "transcended"

You seem a little uptight. Perhaps you should try meditating


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## Deleted member 26656

Maxnomad said:


> @Travelisinvigorating transcendence is a stupid concept, because there is no where in particular to transcend to. If you were to transcend to somewhere, you would be somewhere, and hence not "transcended"
> 
> You seem a little uptight. Perhaps you should try meditating
> [/QUOT
> Perhaps you should shut the hell up new age yuppie trash.


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## Deleted member 26656

Look look...I are meditation has it's place and all, but you're derailing this thread.


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## Deleted member 26656

Coywolf, you ready to be president?


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## Maxnomad

Oops. I clicked agree before i realized you hadnt merely quoted me, but inserted your own threats. I dont intend to shut up. I do intend to continue refining my ability to act in the world, gracefully when im able and agressively when necessary.

Ask yourself "how red is my face right now? Are my hands trembling? Can i cope without punching holes in the wall?" Then ask yourself "how useful am i in this state?"


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## Maxnomad

And no, im not. Pursuing a better ability to engage with the world facilitates all decision making, including whether and how to vote


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## Deleted member 26656

Maxnomad said:


> Oops. I clicked agree before i realized you hadnt merely quoted me, but inserted your own threats. I dont intend to shut up. I do intend to continue refining my ability to act in the world, gracefully when im able and agressively when necessary.
> 
> Ask yourself "how red is my face right now? Are my hands trembling? Can i cope without punching holes in the wall?" Then ask yourself "how useful am i in this state?"


Fuck you, you transendtal rich yuppie


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## Deleted member 26656

Maxnomad said:


> And no, im not. Pursuing a better ability to engage with the world facilitates all decision making, including whether and how to vote


Screw you, you dub ass fuck


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## Deleted member 26656

Maxnomad said:


> And no, im not. Pursuing a better ability to engage with the world facilitates all decision making, including whether and how to vote


Did you sit there and meditate for a while before you went and voted for Trump?


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## Coywolf

Sweet Christ @Travelisinvigorating and @Maxnomad chill out. I dont want this thread to get shut down, or anyone to get warnings/banned here.

I've already asked this once.


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## Deleted member 26656

Coywolf said:


> Sweet Christ @Travelisinvigorating and @Maxnomad chill out. I dont want this thread to get shut down, or anyone to get warnings/banned here.
> 
> I've already asked this once.


Oh coywolf, don't me so mellow dramatic. 
This guy is probably a lobbyist or something.


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## feralautistic

really though, it's useful to stop and experience the world directly. in every context, including this one.

if you're relying on your own experience of being in the world instead of stories told by the media, you will see that the world isnt divided into periods based on the current president of america. fuck trump, I hope he dies, but the government is continuing as it has since it began. he's not exceptional in any way except for in how he reveals democracy as a farce.

if you were living in the world 100% of the time, not consuming the narratives of other people, you would not notice an abrupt change when trump was inaugurated. there's been changes over the past few years but the world changes continuously, and the state is always escalating its oppression. 

so I think it's relevant here to bring up how we're living and where we get our knowledge from

edit- not sure I got across I was talking about @Maxnomad's intro to meditation here


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## WyldLyfe

It doesn't matter who they put in the position, politicians are politicians they black mail each other and are puppets and the same narrative continues. It makes no difference what so ever if someone from the right or left wing wins.. the wings belong to the same bird.. its the same thing just at different ends of the spectrum like hot an cold water, ones hot ones cold but same thing... people think there votes means something... did you see when trump won, Hillary and Trumps acting was quiet good the way they went back and forth with each other. They play off peoples emotions and wounds.. people with mother issues are more likely to go to the left, wanting everything to be nice, people to nurture each other and to be loved. People on the right have father issues, wanting a strong figure to guide an protect them and take charge and make things happen. We need to become our own leaders. Because they've never cared about us they hate us an see us as nothing more then dumb cattle.


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## Deleted member 26656

WyldLyfe said:


> It doesn't matter who they put in the position, politicians are politicians they black mail each other and are puppets and the same narrative continues. It makes no difference what so ever if someone from the right or left wing wins.. the wings belong to the same bird.. its the same thing just at different ends of the spectrum like hot an cold water, ones hot ones cold but same thing... people think there votes means something... did you see when trump won, Hillary and Trumps acting was quiet good the way they went back and forth with each other. They play off peoples emotions and wounds.. people with mother issues are more likely to go to the left, wanting everything to be nice, people to nurture each other and to be loved. People on the right have father issues, wanting a strong figure to guide an protect them and take charge and make things happen. We need to become our own leaders. Because they've never cared about us they hate us an see us as nothing more then dumb cattle.


Actually, Bernie was different. Not to mention, he would have outlawed lobbyist, that's a start.


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## Coywolf

WyldLyfe said:


> It doesn't matter who they put in the position, politicians are politicians they black mail each other and are puppets and the same narrative continues. It makes no difference what so ever if someone from the right or left wing wins.. the wings belong to the same bird.. its the same thing just at different ends of the spectrum like hot an cold water, ones hot ones cold but same thing... people think there votes means something... did you see when trump won, Hillary and Trumps acting was quiet good the way they went back and forth with each other. They play off peoples emotions and wounds.. people with mother issues are more likely to go to the left, wanting everything to be nice, people to nurture each other and to be loved. People on the right have father issues, wanting a strong figure to guide an protect them and take charge and make things happen. We need to become our own leaders. Because they've never cared about us they hate us an see us as nothing more then dumb cattle.



This is so fucking wrong that I almost rated your post as 'stupid'.

So it makes absolutely no difference whether Trump or Bernie Sanders wins the next election? That's moronic. 

One candidate will abolish the electoral college, which will be a drastic change to voters actually mattering. And one will try to change presidential term limits, and legitimize gerrymandering so our country falls into a dictatorship. 

This is how you fuck up a country. Indifference. 

Not meaning to be an asshole, you are just horribly, horribly wrong in that opinion.


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## WyldLyfe

Hey Wolf.. im not indifferent to things going on in the world, but yeah, iv never voted.

If Bernie gets into the position you want him to, he prob wont do half the stuff he said he would or even less. like every politician does, if thats because they flat out lied to get the position or they have been black mailed, compromised, or threatened.. whatever but keep believing the lies, keep thinking one of these assholes are gonna save there countries and the human race..

Your country is already fucked. For it to get better, and other countries we need a whole new ball game, no more of this feed back loop where people think something is gonna happen awesomely but its just, oh here we go again, what im talking about would take enormous effort on behalf of the people, unity and conscious evolution as a collective, and many would just flat out say, your dreaming the people would never do that, and say its never going to happen, not every one tho. Until then its round and round we go. Politicians are just not for the people.. so people should be for the people. Or at least vet leaders, they should have a good track record of doing good for the society not just based on there money an connections.

*Government:* From the Latin verb gubernare: "to control" and the Latin word mens: "Mind"


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## WyldLyfe

It's like humanity is in a relationship with its false parent who's abusive, but when humanity grows up it won't need its false parent to tell it how to behave and how things should be or falsely are, it won't even need to exist, there'll be no place for it.


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## blank

That's just a fantasy, there is no "growing up" for a species, it's just change forever. Working together is how humanity develops and when you do that in a large scale they call it a government, which does not mean "to control minds" lol. Who gets elected clearly and objectively makes a huge difference for a massive amount of people. It's okay to play mental gymnastics to rationalize not voting but I think that kind of thing is supposed to happen quietly in your own head where nobody can point out how how obviously different some people's lives would be without criminal laws, labor laws, any regulation at all, welfare, etc. etc.


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## Maxnomad

Evo morales, the president of bolivia, just resigned a few hours ago along with a lot of his staff in what a bunch of latin american leaders are calling a coup. The main groups calling for his resignation seem to be pro-american conservatives, the military and the police. Bolivian conservatives and mike pence, among others, are saying the election results look shady and theres gotta be a recount, with totally different people handling the count, no mention who those people would be. Morales was the countrys first indiginous president, came from a family of subsistence farmers, and was a labor organizer for coca growers before he got elected

Uruguays president from 2010-15 was a tupamaru guerilla who did twelve years in a military jail, gave away his entire salary and just crashed at his wifes place (gf scam president?!), i wanna say cause he was opposed to the idea of property
The first 9/11 was 9/11/73, when a cia backed group did a military coup, youve probably never heard of salvador allende but i bet youve heard of pinochet

Yea, bernie kinda sucks. Its not hard to guess why theres a lot more radical sentiment in places like bolivia and kurdistan. Its also not hard to guess why westernized radicals are so fucking weak. A lot of the work to be done is just unsexy and depressing. Not to mention boringly legal. Clean water in flint, transitioning to a different electrical supply cause "rewilding" or whatever would involve killing everyone in icu's and then everyone who relies on insulin etc, any number of actual problems could be solved if we can hold our nose and our pride for ten minutes once a year. Ive only voted in local elections, only cause i thought trump vs hillary just didnt matter. Bit a president who didnt back coups in bolivia and pull promised military support for kurdish rebels so erdogan could kill them the second theyre not useful would be cool. Ubi that wasnt a sheisty trade for healthcare an stamps. Would be cool. Bernie as president would be objectively. noones gonna force you to wear sandals or anything


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## Maxnomad

You know, fellxs, theres this theory where youre both right and it involves like, a transitional period where everyones ability to live collectively is nurtured by social institutions and then we do 

Communism


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## Mongo

Maxnomad said:


> Ubi that wasnt a sheisty trade for healthcare an stamps. Would be cool.



Do you consider Andrew yang's UBI a sheisty trade?


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## Maxnomad

Mongo said:


> Do you consider Andrew yang's UBI a sheisty trade?


Yea, if I understand it correctly. I'm really not following him super closely, but I was pretty sure he wanted to replace all social services with just a thousand bucks a month


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## Mongo

Maxnomad said:


> Yea, if I understand it correctly. I'm really not following him super closely, but I was pretty sure he wanted to replace all social services with just a thousand bucks a month



What he states he wants is an opt in design, so either you could take the thousand dollars a month or if benefits a person could be on was worth more they can have those benefits instead of taking the thousand.


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## Maxnomad

Yea but then youd just have access getting harder an harder, less staff at offices and more pressure to just take the cash, which is just enough to starve on. Its not ubi if your other benefits are conditional


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## Maxnomad

Plus it just creates more pressure to run yourself as a business. I want free healthcare, an college, an docs an levis an fucking ice cream


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## Mongo

Or handfuls of dedicated STP members could start NGO's and start pooling money together to buy swathes of land and building headquarters and farms.

If 100 dirty kids put 500 a month away for 3 months they'd have $150,000 pooled together. Assuming they could get there shit together and work aside each other for that long.


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## roughdraft

Mongo said:


> Or handfuls of dedicated STP members could start NGO's and start pooling money together to buy swathes of land and building headquarters and farms.
> 
> If 100 dirty kids put 500 a month away for 3 months they'd have $150,000 pooled together. Assuming they could get there shit together and work aside each other for that long.



and ironically the thread took a rest for a few weeks upon this comment


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## EmmaAintDead

500 a month in savings is a ridiculous amount even if you're steadily employed. Trying to get 100 travelers to do anything is already enough like herding cats, let's not turn this into a high fantasy of 100 people somehow getting solid above living wage jobs with 500 a month in disposable income.


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## Mongo

EmmaAintDead said:


> 500 a month in savings is a ridiculous amount even if you're steadily employed. Trying to get 100 travelers to do anything is already enough like herding cats, let's not turn this into a high fantasy of 100 people somehow getting solid above living wage jobs with 500 a month in disposable income.



I was referencing the numbers for 1000 a month UBI plan. Living off half of that is pretty easy


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## roughdraft

EmmaAintDead said:


> 500 a month in savings is a ridiculous amount even if you're steadily employed. Trying to get 100 travelers to do anything is already enough like herding cats, let's not turn this into a high fantasy of 100 people somehow getting solid above living wage jobs with 500 a month in disposable income.



you're not wrong, but change up the timeframe and it'd be more feasible; save 50 dollars for 10 months and there's 500. 

Granted I get that it's a fantasy to get 100 people to cooperate


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## WyldLyfe

*Woah*... ok I dunno which mod keeps deleting my posts, I posted on this thread (unless im mistaken and it was another about bernie made by Coywolf) about how left n right are the same just at different ends of the spectrum and something people need to go beyond and my comments, a few, which others agreed on are gone..

Anyway mans gonna give me shit about that huh? No real Anarchist would vote, voting is a crime against humanity, a crime against your fellow man, because it is helping to support and perpetuate a system that does not support the people, it enforces the legitimacy of a false authority over the people therefore slavery of the human race..

*A BIG FUCK YOU TO WHO EVER KEEPS* *DELETING* *MY FUCKING POSTS. *

And by the way *NATURAL LAW* just in case anyone gets confused,* IS NOT DARWINISMS LAW* or law of the jungle.

*









*


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## roughdraft

thought for a second I was in private messaging, please delete


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## Maxnomad

Holy shit the stupidity continues


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## void gaze

It’s interesting that he’s both farthest left and maybe the most electable. But if he gets the nomination the right will respond with unheard of levels of red-baiting and anti-semitism, and if he gets elected there will almost definitely be a coup. (IMO)


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## void gaze

...assuming there’s an election and not just a civil war and/or world war iii lol


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## Milodanjo

New polls show sanders taking the lead over creepy blood eyed joe. He's the last offramp from the apocalypse, would do a lot of good for a lot of people for him to get in. It's already class/civil war, but weve got one hell of a fight coming if Bernie gets the nomination. Rumor has it that trump is secretly concerned about Sanders. It's always a good sign when porky gets The fear put into him. The election is just the beginning, and that will mean a country filled with opportunity for any traveler politically motivated to take it. Bernie or bust!


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## superphoenix

If Bernie doesn't win the White House (and he is very close to clinching the nomination now based on the polls), Trump will knock out another centrist Dem and keep the White House. 

And because of stagnant wages, growing disparity between rich and poor, a shrinking middle class, and an ineffective Congress, we're not far off from class war if it's four more years.

That said, the long game at this point is the Rust Belt, especially Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin. Personally, I'm going to try to register as many willing people in PA as I can to avoid another Trump victory.


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## Barf

This "real id" crap scares me.

I see it as just another obstacle to keep poor people and minorities from voting. 

Gerrymandering for the future.

I know a few people that don't have $25 bucks. That is a big chunk of loot for someone living paycheck to pay check.

I do hope Bernie gets the nomination. 

Remember comrades, the man wants us to be afraid. 

Maybe that sliver of hope that something meaningful will come true, well does.


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## Milodanjo

Iowa Caucus time. Good chance Sanders is taking the lead. Between now and the nomination, and if he gets it, the campaign is going to need more boots on the ground. If there are other political activists who are interested, maybe we could start a stp sanders initiative for those wanting to link up and do campaign work, find ins to get paid staff positions, connect with the room and board options that certain cities offer for campaign workers. just a thought, but, things could get really interesting if his momentum continues to build, and hell, transients like ourselves are perfect for this. Peace.


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## Coywolf

Milodanjo said:


> Iowa Caucus time. Good chance Sanders is taking the lead. Between now and the nomination, and if he gets it, the campaign is going to need more boots on the ground. If there are other political activists who are interested, maybe we could start a stp sanders initiative for those wanting to link up and do campaign work, find ins to get paid staff positions, connect with the room and board options that certain cities offer for campaign workers. just a thought, but, things could get really interesting if his momentum continues to build, and hell, transients like ourselves are perfect for this. Peace.



I like it. I have tried to get involved in his campaign, but AZ is a hard state for that. The only way to change the system is political revolution, and the only person who has the national/world stage talking about that is, Sanders.


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## void gaze

the fact that the dems would own themselves so hard just to get in his way only makes the case for him stronger


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## Milodanjo

Coywolf said:


> I like it. I have tried to get involved in his campaign, but AZ is a hard state for that. The only way to change the system is political revolution, and the only person who has the national/world stage talking about that is, Sanders.



just went through phoenix, seemed like it had a nice progressive vibe but you know better than I. I'm heading for Austin texas, if I can get in on the state wide campaign, I'm thinking that would be super rewarding. tho, it Probably be a week before I get some good contacts or info for what's up with sanders ground game. I'll repost or sage bump this thread If something materializes. Sanders swept the pop vote by 6,000 so I think the ratman is about to get btfo, Good tidings in Iowa despite the clusterfuck.


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## superphoenix




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## Deleted member 13433

I have just now read pretty much all that could be read here, as it seems that there was some real good dirt which might have been taken down, anyhow: my observations based on voting more or less since 1983:

The first thing is those running for office are going to tell you what you want to hear.
I learned that one when I supported President Obama on his promise that he was going to penalize all U.S. Corporations that off-shored U.S. jobs, which to me seemed like a damn good idea.

Of course, the U.S. Corporations did not like the idea of losing billions and billions in profit, so that campaign promise went out the window as fast as lightening, which then put me on a path to no longer vote for almost 8 years, I was so furious !!

As far as candidates switching parties, that happens more often than one thinks, and sometimes it's to make them selves more attractive to voters otherwise not attainable, or perhaps they feel let down by their own party and had to make a change.

Lets see: In 1983, in NYC... I started out as a Republican, but then switched to Conservative by 1985.... and back then the NY Conservative Party was like a more radical version of today's so called Libertarian Party.... plus the Brooklyn Conservative Party boss owned a liquor store, which worked out very well for me back then   

But then once in CT, I went back to Republican by - maybe 1988 ??
I know I was an Independent by 1989, but then I was a Republican again for many years, many years - till President Bush Jr enraged me so bad I left the party and joined the Greens in 2003.

The Republican Party I was a part of is not the same Republican Party that's around today, and I learned that after leaving the Greens because they became too wishy washy for me, they could not take a firm stand on anything without fear of offending someone so I was out.

Very recently I switched parties yet again, this time for the Working Families Party, which some describe as a quasi marxist/socialist party, which suits me fine.

I remember being astonished when Trump was being offered as a potential Presidential candidate, I along with many other were like no way, he is a buffoon !!

But, he made the nomination against all odds, and because the Left was so fractionized, to me that's why Trump got elected.

So many people were against Hillary Clinton, that there was no way Trump was going to lose, although technically he did - as she got the popular vote....

I like Jill Stein a lot, I still like her - but my concern was keeping Trump out of office, so I'm pretty sure I voted for Clinton.

As for Sanders, I do admire him very much.
I like a lot of what he says, along with his past practices.

I also agree he needs a solid VP as well........ and a lot of thought needs to be put into that.

Would a Sanders/Stein ticket work ??

By Trump getting elected the last time around, and he's another one who switched parties too... but Trump proved that anyone can get elected, you don't have to have a record [*his is terrible, Trump makes money by losing money !!] all you need is a good rap, and if people begin to resonate then you are all set.

Tell you what, I liked Ralph Nader back in the day.
I used to listen to his speeches and his rallies which were broadcasted live by Peace and Justice Radio WBAI out of NYC, and this brings upon another good point which Jello used to say all the time: Become the media, Be the media.

The radio dial today is a dozen high power stations all owned by the same network all broadcasting the same lies, and if the lies are repeated enough, they become truth.

It's an excellent tactic which has worked well for Trump.

Regarding Venezuala, that is nothing new, I think of what went down in Somalia in the early 1990s and I am still physically sickened by it.

Look at China now, all these trade dis-agreements... and now what a surprise, a deadly disease has appeared out of nowhere, again what a surprise.........

Trump has got to go, and I think Sanders could be the one to pull it off, if he picks the right VP.

Are there any other opinions regarding a Sanders/Stein ticket ??

I hope this thread keeps going, as it is important to be involved, today now more than ever.

Respect,

Big George + Loki the dog..............


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## EmmaAintDead

superphoenix said:


>



I cant wait to get a back patch with Bernie Sanders face on it that says "To heck with society, to heck with law an order" around it


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## Coywolf

@OTTERWOLF I very much appreciate your last response, especially the historical references towards the democratic party and past elections.

I believe that if Sanders is nominated, it may strengthen the debate to get away from a 2 party system, this is a very slow process, in that most of the electorate in this country are either too willfully ignorant, or too set in the previous ways of elections in this country, to voice alternative opinions to what we currently have.

Fuck, that is one hell of a run on sentence.

With every poll and primary, Sanders is gaining popularity, and I am just waiting and watching to see what the more 'liberal' voters in this country decide to do. Biden has been taking a beating, so has Buttegeig and Warren. 

South Carolina, Nevada, and Arizona should give us a precursor of what will happen next. All I know is, if I witness another 2016 debacle with the democratic 'liberal' primary. I'm completely done with the elections in this country. It will speak volumes. 

I do realize many on this website have already said 'fuck all' to the voting and electoral system in this country and worldwide, but I will say something for this being the last chance to transform this country via a democratic process. This is the last one IMO, and if it fails, we are completely fucked. This is the dawning of complete oligarchy and fascism.

Has it been going on already? Bet your ass it has....but if we dont turn it around now, we are done as a country, where your opinion will actually land you in a forced labor camp, rather than being shamed on social media.


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## void gaze

The only thing that I find really important about him- about any of them- is that he has always used his position to stimulate grassroots organizing. “Not me, us.” Never mind that he also has the most consistent record of fighting for the little people on policy, but it’s not just about policy but power which is what all those other haircuts are missing. Assuming that the president doesn’t cancel the election, or rig it, or refuse to concede, or that his followers don’t assassinate the winner, etc what are they going to get done without popular momentum against the right? the 2016 sanders campaign has remained productive - who else can lose so well?


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## Milodanjo

Although there is apathy on this site, it's probably close to the national average. most punks and anarchists i meet(was at a cool anarchist book fair the other day in austin) are supportive, and see eye to eye for the most part with socialists on this, and that's good, until we get the numbers, we need left unity. You don't have to be politically savvy to get on board with this, the time is clearly now, and the greatest chance for revolutionary change is going to come out of sanders. Coywolf addressed what a failed sanders campaign will lead too nicely. If your an anarchist or marxist purist, fine, but this is radicalizing millions of people, organizing them and raising class consciousness. If sanders makes it, the oligarchy will wage unremitting class/civil war(lol, if it wasn't bad enough already), and no matter what, it's going to be a fight. 

It's not about a couple of social reforms, something as normal as universal healthcare becomes revolutionary when power obstructs it as a site of struggle. Without the fight you have no mass of people who will be pushed farther left, which If we do this right, is what's going to happen, if we play this game right, you will have laid the foundation for a genuine revolutionary movement. The oppressed in America make up a slumbering giant, it's waking up and coming to life, that's what they're really afraid of, sanders and our movement is just a part of what will tear this rotten system to shreds.

Alright, I'll get off my soapbox. Got a sanders party to get to for the NH primary, good way to network with inspiring people!


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## void gaze

Do you think he can really get it though? I feel like if it’s not in the bag by the convention they will 100% definitely screw him again.


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## Milodanjo

Hey, Im leaving Austin for South Carolina via a Sanders volunteer canvas crew(leaving Saturday morning, just signed up). Sleepy time joe and the ratman are going to take a beating, seems like a great place to get started on the campaign before its primary in two weeks. If anyone's around Charleston, would be cool to kick it! Im trying to get a staff position, or at least bounce around primary states if possible, and if weather permits.


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## brando

Just went to his rally in Austin tonight. Seemed like the most bang for the buck entertainment-wise for Sunday night...

Anywho, he says a lot of pretty good stuff. Medicare for all, pot federally legalized from day 1 in office, abolishing private prisons, free public colleges, ending ICE raids and granting citizenship for many.

Definitely not as far as most of us here would like to see things go, but sounds like the best mainstream candidate I've ever heard of.

He definitely loses me at gun control though...


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## Deleted member 13433

"He definitely loses me at gun control though... "

Yes !!

This is no joke because as long as the citizens - the people - are armed, then there is still a chance the government will continue to refrain from completely tamping us down, and I am not one of those gun nuts either - I just see things for exactly what they are.....

I like Bernie overall the best, but he really needs to re-think his gun control policies.

Yes, it would be so nice to live in a world without guns, but I truly believe that there's going to come a time when we will all wish we were armed !!

Thanks for posting this insightful comment regarding the rally in Austin.

Cheers.............

Big George + Loki the Dog.


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## void gaze

Gun control is not going to happen.


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## void gaze

He’s converted his whole campaign/fundraising operation into a pandemic relief effort. That right there shows he’s the real deal imo. Biden hasn’t been seen in days and is probably dying.


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## Fuzzypeach

And now, the way things are looking, we are going to be stuck with a senile, corporate bought Republican pretending to be a Democratic.


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## Deleted member 13433

well, assuming he wins the election, assuming there are elections.
I would not lose too much sleep over this, it's out of our hands and besides in the end, the electorial college calls the shots anyway


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## Older Than Dirt

Fuzzypeach said:


> we are going to be stuck with a senile, corporate bought Republican pretending to be a Democratic.



Who will be endorsed by Bernie, and who Bernie will campaign for, hard, because he knows the alternative, four more years of Trump, is unthinkable. Just like he endorsed, and campaigned hard for Hillary in 2016.

Bernie is not going to be the Democratic nominee. Biden is not my first or even my second choice, but only the Democratic nominee can beat Trump. Biden is going to be the Democratic nominee, because more people voted for him in the primaries, not because of some sinister fix by the party establishment.

If you think there is no difference between an imperfect Democrat, and Trump, you haven't been paying much attention for the last 3 years. Biden has already adopted a bunch of Warren's policy proposals, and will soon be adopting a bunch of Bernie's as part of the effort to unify the party and beat Trump and retake the Senate.

"Hold your nose and vote for the Democrat" is the most robust rule in American politics. Push hard for the leftmost candidate in primaries, but in the general, if you aren't supporting Biden, you are supporting Trump. That simple.


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## Fuzzypeach

I will have to. However he had some bad policies in the past: NAFTA, militarizing police, tough on crime, etc.


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## Older Than Dirt

Believe me i know, Biden's criminal justice history as a Senator, and history on bankruptcy in particular are awful. He's been in politics since 1973, representing a state that wasn't Confederate, but where folks do talk awful Southern.

That's one reason you have to look to him adopting Warren's bankruptcy policy wholesale. Her main thing in this policy is overturning all the bad stuff in the last bankruptcy bill, the one Biden was the Dem sponsor of, 20 years ago.

Because he was last a Senator in 2009. Since then, he was VP to Obama, who gave us Obamacare and did his best in the face of the Repub Senate caucus refusal of everything.

Like i said, i would rather have Bernie, and would really rather have Sen. Dr. Prof. Warren, but i will happily vote for Joe. Because the alternative is more Trump.

Nothing any Democrat says will mean a fucking thing unless Dems also recapture the Senate. Turn your ferocity there, where it will be needed.


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## void gaze

Only half of the delegates have been assigned. Bernie could totally catch up. Things are different than they were a month ago and there’s no reason to buy into the narrative of inevitability. And Biden can’t beat 45 in a million years. Today he came out of a week of hiding to mumble through a fifteen minute speech , looking and sounding drugged out of his mind. If he’s the nominee the dnc will almost definitely switch him out at the convention for someone who seems less like a lukewarm corpse.


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## Older Than Dirt

void gaze said:


> Bernie could totally catch up.



No, he can't, unless he wins 64.4% of all remaining delegates. 

So far, he has won 39% of the 2300 delegates allotted, to Biden's 52%. So, he will have to do _much_ better than he has in any primary so far, in _every single remaining primary_, to get a majority. That just isn't going to happen. He will drop out and endorse Biden soon.

https://www.npr.org/2020/02/10/7999...-2020-presidential-democratic-candidates-have
Toxic attacks on other Democrats by "Bernie Or Busters", like yours on Biden, and the general cult of personality around Bernie, are a big part of the reason Bernie won't be the nominee. Attacking other Democrats just convinces Democratic Party primary voters that this is not a person who can unify the Party and beat Trump.


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## void gaze

Oh


Older Than Dirt said:


> No, he can't, unless he wins 64.4% of all remaining delegates.
> 
> So far, he has won 39% of the 2300 delegates allotted, to Biden's 52%. So, he will have to do _much_ better than he has in any primary so far, in _every single remaining primary_, to get a majority. That just isn't going to happen. He will drop out and endorse Biden soon.
> 
> https://www.npr.org/2020/02/10/7999...-2020-presidential-democratic-candidates-have
> Toxic attacks on other Democrats by "Bernie Or Busters", like yours on Biden, and the general cult of personality around Bernie, are a big part of the reason Bernie won't be the nominee. Attacking other Democrats just convinces Democratic Party primary voters that this is not a person who can unify the Party and beat Trump.



Oh come on. Don’t pretend it’s about ‘Bernie bro twitter’ lmao. That’s messenger-shooting worthy of the prez. The party establishment and its wealthy donors would rather have tr*mp than a socialist. Simple as that. The fact that you can’t think of a single specific positive thing to say about Biden, his disappearing act and obvious incompetence, says plenty. They said ‘anyone but tr*mp’ and it’s very obvious they meant anyone but Bernie. Biden’s been napping for the past week. Imagine thinking that’s a leader who can ‘unite the party’ and defeat fascism. If he’s the nom the dem party is done. And deserves to be.


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## Older Than Dirt

void gaze said:


> The party establishment and its wealthy donors would rather have tr*mp than a socialist. Simple as that.



Well, them, and the very large majority of members of the Democratic Party who voted in primaries for someone else. That's the best thing i can think of to say about Joe- he is the most popular candidate.

Oh, and the fact that Bernie, and Warren, will endorse him soon, and will campaign for him, well, there's that, too.

And the idea that Bernie is a "Socialist" in anything but name is just silly- which industries does he advocate nationalizing again? Oh, none of them, right. He is a pretty typical left Democrat who won't join the party he wants to be the nominee of.



void gaze said:


> If he’s the nom the dem party is done. And deserves to be.



Good to know we can count on you in the fight against Fascism (as long as your cult-figure is the Dear Leader, that is).

With views like that, how do you expect your "Revolution" to make any converts, let alone almost double the number of supporters Bernie has so far, as he'd have to do to be the nominee?

Remember, _every single one of those people_ that you have to convince to join the "Revolution" is a member of the Democratic Party you say deserves to be "done", if voters don't pick your preferred candidate.


----------



## Fuzzypeach

Older Than Dirt said:


> Believe me i know, Biden's criminal justice history as a Senator, and history on bankruptcy in particular are awful. He's been in politics since 1973, representing a state that wasn't Confederate, but where folks do talk awful Southern.
> 
> That's one reason you have to look to him adopting Warren's bankruptcy policy wholesale. Her main thing in this policy is overturning all the bad stuff in the last bankruptcy bill, the one Biden was the Dem sponsor of, 20 years ago.
> 
> Because he was last a Senator in 2009. Since then, he was VP to Obama, who gave us Obamacare and did his best in the face of the Repub Senate caucus refusal of everything.
> 
> Like i said, i would rather have Bernie, and would really rather have Sen. Dr. Prof. Warren, but i will happily vote for Joe. Because the alternative is more Trump.
> 
> Nothing any Democrat says will mean a fucking thing unless Dems also recapture the Senate. Turn your ferocity there, where it will be needed.


Yes, you are right. And yes I will.


----------



## void gaze

Calm down man I’m not planning a revolution - you don’t actually know what I think-, and ok ok we all know he’s a DEMOCRATIC socialist. Pick on my grammar too why don’t ya. His policies would directly improve the conditions of poor people. Biden not really besides which, again...come the f on. Where to begin? He can’t keep his hands off of women in public; at least 45 has closed doors and hush money. They voted for him because he’s Not Bernie and has no particular platform, ideas or spine. Being Not Trump won’t be such an asset in the general. He also told people to go to the polls when the cdc said not to. He gave Strom thurmond’s Eulogy, voted for the Iraq war, doma and the Hyde amendment a million times and the gop has been ready for a year to skin him alive over Ukraine. He has basically vanished in the middle of a historic crisis, and often appears sleepy, confused and unable to string together an intelligible sentence. I really don’t see this dude getting across the finish line. I know a lot of people are trying really hard to convince themselves he’s the one but he’s just so obviously pathetic. He’s a doddering creep and people are telling themselves he’s inevitable but I don’t think anyone is really crazy about him. Not nominating Bernie in 16 was the mistake that got us 45. Two losses to that guy and there probably won’t be another election.


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## void gaze

Oh don’t forget he’s wanted to cut social security, people love that especially older people who are overrepresented as voters


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## Deleted member 13433

Well, then ya'll be happy when Trump gets his second term, just like when he got his first.


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## roughdraft

nobody is gonna be happy with anybody as president because government is inherently shite


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## SouthernSammon

Coywolf said:


> Yes. 100% I like Warren too, but the fact that she was a Repiblican for most of her life kinda turns me off of her being the frontrunner pick. But ya. Very good point. I think whoever he would choose as a VP would be very sound.


I don’t appreciate her lying about being indigenous though....


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## Coywolf

OTTERWOLF said:


> Well, then ya'll be happy when Trump gets his second term, just like when he got his first.



That's ridiculous. That is a bullshit Dem party catchphrase, everyone who is right in the head knows that Trump won because people didnt like hillary. 

The idea that somehow thousands of people who wanted Bernie, didnt get him, and then voted for Trump is ridiculous. 

If the Dem party put Sanders as the nominee in 2016, he would have won, and we wouldnt even HAVE trump.

And @Older Than Dirt I dont trust any fucking party that still continues a vote during a nationwide pandemic. The fact they did not suspend the primaries is one of the most irresponsible things I've ever seen from a 'Democratic' institution.

The Democratic party can go fuck itself. It has COMPLETELY written off the progressive wing of the party, and that will be its downfall.

I'm going to laugh when Joe's mental capacity continues to decline, they put him in a debate against Trump, he fucks up a question/response REALLY bad, and we wind up with 4 more years of Trump.

If that happens, no one but the Deomcratic party leadership will be to blame. Exact same thing as 2016.


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## Fuzzypeach

Biden's dementia is an ongoing concern for me. His pick for VPOTUS is critical.


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## Older Than Dirt

Coywolf said:


> If the Dem party put Sanders as the nominee in 2016, he would have won, and we wouldnt even HAVE trump.



Of course we'll never know. And i have made this argument myself. But the fact is, Bernie Sanders endorsed Hillary in 2016, and campaigned for her. It wasn't enough to beat Trump.



Coywolf said:


> And @Older Than Dirt I dont trust any fucking party that still continues a vote during a nationwide pandemic. The fact they did not suspend the primaries is one of the most irresponsible things I've ever seen from a 'Democratic' institution.



This doesn't make sense.

So the Democratic party is to blame that Sanders insists on continuing the primaries, despite the fact that it is impossible for him to win the nomination?

If the Democratic party had suspended the primaries in the wake of COV-19, the Bernie fans would all be screaming it was an establishment plot. Because if the primaries were to be suspended, then the nominee would have to be the one with the most votes before that (Biden, 52%).

Or do you think the Democratic party should have suspended the primaries and made Bernie the nominee because he has 39% of the delegates?



Coywolf said:


> The Democratic party can go fuck itself. It has COMPLETELY written off the progressive wing of the party, and that will be its downfall.



I think what you mean is "The Democratic party can go fuck itself. Democratic primary voters preferred someone i don't like." No one has "written off the progressive wing of the party"; Biden has adopted several of Warren's policy proposals. And will probably adopt some of Bernie's.

The reason Bernie is not going to be the nominee is that black folks over 30 won't vote for him. Period. Not because of the sinister moves of Party elites.

Bernie and Warren will both endorse Joe Biden and campaign for him, because they know what's at stake.


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## Older Than Dirt

Coywolf said:


> everyone who is right in the head knows that Trump won because people didnt like hillary.



Just have to add- Hillary got 3 million more votes than Trump, which was more votes than any other Presidential candidate in history.

Trump won because he got very very lucky in the Electoral College, not because Hillary was an unpopular candidate.

Incidentally, i supported Bernie in 2016 and voted for him in the NY primary (and for Hillary in the general).


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## Deleted member 13433

*Coywolf*

My friend... what you wrote in your post @ 3.38pm yesterday, that's literally what I wrote in my brief comment which you felt was stupid !!

I'm sorry you felt that way, but... my point was if the Left remains fractionalized, then the same thing that happened last time around will happen again in November, and I added some sarcasism that I hope those who hate Biden are happy with the outcome.

And, as OTD correctly observed, it's all about the electorial college, not the popular vote, and that is something that angers me very much.

I for one would have been very happy had Clinton won the election last time around.
*And before you ask, I'm a member of the Working Families Party.....

Cheers Mate.


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## Coywolf

@Older Than Dirt yes, I know that the losing candidate would probably support the candidate, the whole "lesser evil" mentality.

And the reason I say what I said about the primaries, is because the government is issuing guidance that essentially says "STAY HOME" yet the democratic party issues different guidance. I severely doubt many Bernie supporters would call "foul" if the primaries were suspended. Bernie himself was one of the first politicians to come out supporting the "stay home, social distancing" guidance.

Hillary was an INCREDIBLY unpopular candidate. So unpopular, in fact, that many lifelong democrats voted for Trump instead of her.

All you have to do is watch the many voter interviews after the election to see that. 

I know how this country runs its politics. It's an oligarchy, and has been since Regan, even before Regan...but that doesnt mean I have to like it.

With Biden as the next option, I have a very heavy conscience in continuing that bullshit the wealthy class has given us as a "choice".


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## Coywolf

@OTTERWOLF I may have missed the sarcasm, if that was the case, in your previous post. 

If that was the case, my bad. 

I have invested so much effort into the cause that may pull our country out of the money-fueled plutocracy we currently live in, that after these results, twice, I'm just starting to lose hope. It's really, really sad. I'm not sure, after looking at the primaries, that our country deserves anything more than what we currently have.


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## Deleted member 13433

*Coywolf*
I wholeheartedly agree and can understand your frustration, as it's very hard to keep hope alive, especially in these times.

Have a Good Night !!
I'm attempting to finish my census 2020 now...........


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## blank

Coywolf said:


> I'm not sure, after looking at the primaries, that our country deserves anything more than what we currently have.


"Every nation gets the government it deserves."

It's a depressing way to look at it, but it's probably half true. You should look at the fact that our representative democracy doesn't always reflect the will of the people, if you want to be less bummed out. There is a severe lack of real education on subjects now. It's mostly just people who have a feeling and read or hear a phrase that interacts with their emotions and boom that is their new core belief and no amount of evidence to the contrary will sway them. That and people are so overconfident, like what they think can't possibly be wrong because they are the one who thinks it. Just becomes pure sloppy ideology.

Seems to me like when people financially struggle they tend to become more emotional, leading to things being more about psychology than economics or civics or philosophy or whatever, resulting in poorer choices overall which can exacerbate the issue. Might be in kind of a negative feedback loop with this shit right now. 

My hope is basically in a beneficial fluke happening and people irrationally latching onto something advantageous for the working class by accident. Rising tide lifts all ships and shit. I really don't want to vote for Joe Biden but I can't relate to the impulse to burn the whole thing down because we didn't get our ideal choice. But at the same time maybe they need 4 more years of Trump to see how bad this is and actually learn. Or maybe they wouldn't learn from it and 4 more years of Trump will just be 4 more shit years. This is the most uncomfortable choice I've had to make in a while lol.


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## Deleted member 13433

wow... !!

*blank*
man, this:

"Every nation gets the government it deserves."

You hit it. You really hit it there.....

I was thinking just yesterday about how there once was a period of time where I felt that abstaining was a legit form of voting if one was not happy with either choice [and to an extent, I still feel this way... because being forced to choose between two bad options is insulting to one's intelligence...] BUT whoa... the Trump.... I still can't believe that he ended up being the Republican choice for the man to steer the ship - it's beyond belief !!

But the Trump became master of one thing no one else in recent times was able to do -right wrong or indifferent - and that was become the master of the catch phrase, the slogan - be it "Jail Hillary" or "Make American Hate Again", oops I mean "Great Again"... and the people bought it hook line and sinker.

Many of my friend to the Left were so against the idea of Clinton being elected, that I soon realized that if this was any indication on how the left really felt, then it was going to be real easy for that buffoon from Manhattan to win, which of course he did thanks to our rigged system [*Trumps words too !!] which uses the electorial college to elect the president...

"Every nation gets the government it deserves."

Yes - as far as the United States goes.

But No as far as other parts of the world go where their rulers [for lack of a better word...] are often put in power, and the people have no say whatsoever, and are often persecuted greatly as a direct result.

"Every nation gets the government it deserves."

*blank*

*those prophetic words which you have spoken are truly what's going to happen here this time around !!

Please people, we gotta at least try to vote the Trump out of office, and if Joe Biden is the man that is up against the Trump, then Joe Biden's got my vote.

Time to batten down the hatches, things are about to get real bad out here.................

Anarchy Peace FREEDOM and Love..............

Big George + Loki the Dog xoxo


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## Older Than Dirt

I don't think there is going to be anyone who posts here who is going to say "Joe Biden is my #1 choice!"

But he will run on the most progressive, left platform of any Democratic candidate in history (just as Hillary was to the left of any previous candidate, whatever some want to believe). Bernie, Warren, AOC, etc have been very effective in pushing the party to stop being scared of what Republicans will say, and push for things that help ordinary people.

And the alternative is Trump unleashed, as an unimpeachable King and dictator. There might not _be_ a 2024 election if he is re-elected.

And Joe Biden is the only Presidential candidate ever who says stuff like "You're full of shit, man!", which ought to win him some points with the StP crowd.

And all this stuff about dementia won't survive hearing him speak. All humans, of all ages, make speech errors. Joe Biden has been tripping over his own tongue as long as he has been a politician (since 1973), and doesn't do it any more now than when he was 30. Trump can barely get through a sentence without evidence of dementia.

And older black folks love the man. They are the backbone of the Democratic Party, and you can't get elected without a whole lot of those black church ladies with the hats campaigning for you.


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## Older Than Dirt

So now Bernie is out. He hasn't endorsed Joe yet, but he will.

So, the remaining choices are Joe Biden or Donald Trump. Voting for anyone but Biden means you are voting for more Trump, and not voting means you are voting for more Trump. Hitler got elected when Communists were too pure to vote against him, and for a moderate left candidate.

On the menu today, we have a choice of day-old McDonalds, or old tires and anthrax. There aren't any other choices.

Tough decision i know.


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## Deleted member 13433

*Its actually not a tough decision, it's the right decision... unless one loves what we currently have.


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## Xxcooltoesxx

Bernie Sanders is trying turn into a socialism government and what always follows with that socialism turn into a communist government


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## Older Than Dirt

Probably you should have payed more attention in high school, or read some things about politics and history, before you post silly opinions like this. 

By your standards, every single other industrialized country is communist or will turn communist, because every single other industrialized country provides their citizens with way more benefits than Bernie ever promised, with about the same amount of taxes. Free health care, free or very cheap education and daycare, a right to housing and enough money to buy food, good public transportation everywhere, roads and bridges that are well-maintained, parks and sports centers in neighborhoods. Before the Brits chime in- you still have almost all of that, had all of it pre-Maggie.

The difference is, people in other countries get stuff back when they pay taxes; Americans don't. Rich Americans have convinced you, who are most likely broke as shit, that this is a good thing.


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## Xxcooltoesxx

Yeah I get it.But what country can you legally carry firearms,freedom of speech,eastern Europe is pitiful ,look at what communism has done there . Democracy is the reason why ...look I don’t need to explain to someone who’s older than me why America is the fucking shit, envy of the world ,we run this shit.if America falls the whole world falls as well .Do you even know what the citizens Of countries even want ? I don’t either.But they want that Red White an Blue .they dream of democracy, look how many kids look up to America all over the world they leave there homes in there own country to come here An try to get A job go to college,play in professional sports,,i don’t know what else is there that they look up to,but it’s definitely not socialism nor communism.


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## Older Than Dirt

America is not "the envy of the world", America has been a third-world country with shitty living standards, very bad health care, very expensive education, shitty expensive housing, etc, etc, but with an unusually large number of rich people, for longer than you have been alive.

I am old enough to remember when some of the things you say were true, but they have been less and less true every year since Reagan got in in 1980.

No Canadian or Western European wants to become a US citizen unless they marry an American or something. Their lives are much better and more comfortable than the lives of Americans. 

Every country in Western Europe, and Canada, is at least as democratic as the US, BTW- more so, because they don't have an Electoral College electing presidents with fewer votes than the loser, or a Senate where states with fewer people than _neighborhoods_ in NYC get 2 Senators each, and NYC shares 2 Senators with the rest of a very large state with lots of big cities.

People from very poor countries want to immigrate here because they think life in America is like American TV and American movies. People want to immigrate here because they believe they will get rich, or at least will live in a "first world" country, where things are run according to the law, and everything is nicer than at home. My wife was one of them- she moved here from Brazil in 1999.

But what they get isn't what they saw on TV and in the movies.

Americans get screwed for the benefit of the super-rich; enough working-class Americans vote for this to keep things that way.

The Republican Party wants to fuck America harder, the Democrats at their worst at least insist on lube, and sometimes make the Republicans stop fucking us altogether.


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## Deleted member 13433

Some real good points, everyone wants to come to America, the land of the free, the land of milk and honey... shit, my mom who grew up in Germany - she broke an engagement she had with a fellow German, just so she could hitch up with my father and come to America [and somewhere along the line, I arrived as well....]

Now - in the early - mid 1960s things were still pretty desperate in Germany, so getting out of Germany was the goal of many of it's people - hence my relatives are scattered in places like South Africa, Belguim, now Australia.... but only my mom made it to America.

Why ??

That's a very good question - but I do know that it did not take long for my mom to realize she made a huge mistake in coming here, when she saw how polluted it was, how much crime there was, how disrespectful people were/are - all these things still hold true today, but because my mom was married, she decided to stick it out and hope things would always improve.

Did they ??

Well, we did have a nice home in Brooklyn, in the 1970s/80s with both my parents working sometimes two jobs at once to make ends meet, but it was nice... eventually I split in 1987 and moved to Connecticut, my parents soon followed - no lie - first year 1992 their place gets broken into.

NEVER had that problem in Brooklyn NY
So, the grass is not always greener...............

And yes, we do have freedom of speech - somewhat, and the right to bear arms - somewhat... but the problem is now you need to carry arms because it's gotten so damn violent out here, and that to me is not freedom - that is necessity... and that is not a healthy way to live.


True story - I knew a driver for Victory Car Service in Bay Ridge Brooklyn, he was from I think Pakastan... this would be around 1990/92 maybe.... and to him, riding in his car - working for the car service - that was to him the American Dream.

Real nice guy, I can't even begin to imagine what it was like where he came from.

A surprising amount come here from other countries to exploit our wealth - then split the first chance they can.

Don't get me wrong, I like my present situation - but it comes with a price, as everything in life does....

But as time goes on, sometimes I really have to ask if it is worth it - especially now with this virus going around.

Everywhere else in the rest of the world, they know how to deal with these kinds of things but not here in America, makes you wonder don't it ???

I often wonder how America would handle 5 solid years of starvation......


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## Xxcooltoesxx

Juan Derlust said:


> So @Xxcooltoesxx you're voting for Biden then - great!


I’m voting for a republican


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## Xxcooltoesxx

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the *right* of the people to keep and *bear Arms*, shall not be infringed."

@OTTERWOLF


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## Barf

I sure as hell ain't gunna let the queen of England live in my house!


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## Older Than Dirt

Well, if being able to own a gun is more important to you than being able to afford one, maybe that'll work out for you. 

If you think you need a gun for when we Democrats come to force you to have free education, and free healthcare, and a right to earn enough money to live on if you work, and to not starve when you get old, you may find that it's hard to shoot at social benefits.

Oh, fine, we'll also make you get gay-married, and turn your kids turn gay, and make them get lots of abortions from being pregnant from all the gay sex we will make them have.


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## Xxcooltoesxx

Us Americans we govern ourselves


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## Older Than Dirt

The Democratic Party is kind of big on democracy, thus the name. 3 million more Americans voted for Hillary than voted for your man Trump.

The Republican Party is the one that spends an enormous amount of money and energy to make it as hard as possible for Americans to vote, and to stop counting votes when they lose. Only Republicans have engaged in election fraud in recent memory.

The guy you plan to vote for is by far the stupidest, and by far the most corrupt, and by far the least competent, person to be President in the history of this country. People are dying every day right now because he is so spectacularly totally shit at his job.

He is also the stooge/puppet/lap-dog/bitch (only he knows which) of the President of Russia, which doesn't sound good for governing ourselves.

This is a guy who has never worked a single day in his life, who pissed through half a billion dollars of his dad's money in the real estate business in NYC, went bankrupt six times running casinos (even though he stiffed all the contractors and tradesmen who built them), and then went into money-laundering for US and Russian organized crime, and parlayed that into a gig playing a rich guy on TV, and parlayed that into being the worst President in history, and who is married to an ex-expensive call-girl who will divorce him the second he isn't in the White House anymore.

He will most likely die in prison, or in exile in Russia.


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## Xxcooltoesxx

How about President George Bush he was not intelligent. I lived through multiple crises among the presidents I remember 9/11 ,and I remember the recession, and now it’s covid - 19 .President Donald Trump was the best so far out of those three , Unemployenot was at its lowest,Prison reform,and the stock market was doing good,until this happened . We had some shoddy Presidents over the years, in my opinion ,.,,,With regards to a well regulated militia that could be a Police Force,Secret Police Force ,an Organization,The mafia,Freedom Fighters . Coy wolf put a thread or whatever you call it about Bernie Sanders an I added my two cents to say it,I don’t like how he was against millionaires and billionaires claiming free college for all,,who the fuck is going to be pay all that money,the professors have to get paid ,,,,,books,,,,,,college dorms,,,,and other stuff.But then Bernie Sanders just recently makes millionaire dollars a year.So now it’s screw the billionaires,cut there heads off,an what not , most people worked hard for there money ,whether or not the Rothschild or some families that been making money since before world war 1 , like Henry Ford ,Ray Kroc ,The Ben @ Jerry brothers, and quite a few ,not every millionaire and billionaire is bad or evil . There just like you and I ,there humans to.President Donald Trump eats a bag a chips like we do .I know and think he gets to much shit thrown on him, for a bill to get passed it has to legislative branch,and judicial branch,and to the executive branch.He’s really been chilling.


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## Deleted member 13433

Well, I give you credit for standing by your convictions... but I don't think you are going to find much of a sympathetic ear here.

Don't worry, your boy is going to get re-elected and it's going to be a land slide, thanks to the Left who will refuse to support the candidate running against him.

Now I personally feel health care and education could be fully funded just like other countries do, but that would mean trimming the fat for those at the top and also the almighty defense industry, which honestly...has not given a good return on tax payer dollars in quite some time now.

I'm also not as narrow minded as you might think, as - I though Bush Jr's first term was good, but his second term was atrocious as he gave so much to the rich, it was beyond disgusting.

The amount spent on companies like Halliburton cannot be denied either.

But I did like Reagan, Bush the elder, Clinton, Obama, and in retrospect Carter as well.....

I've mentioned this before how in the 1980s in NYC I was a regestered Conservative because the party back then was like a wild off-shoot of the Libertarian's, as opposed to what it's turned into today.

Much of my adult life was as a regestered Republican, but then by 2003 my eyes were opened forever and there was no turning back so I went Green.

But then the Greens were anything but what I thought they'd be so I went back to Republican to support a local candidate here in my town - who turned out to be beyond terrible, and today I'm a member of the so called "quasi marxist socialist" Working Families Party because they suit my needs best, and I can get on board with their party platform as well.

I'm surprised that you did not mention "the common people" when it came to your definition which was previously asked regarding the 2nd ammendment, and yes.. I know what it means.

I also have to disagree with - I mean, I cannot support the ultra rich... especially today.
I also can't support a president who never served in the military yet touts himself as a war time president, and makes all his money by losing daddy's.... and by the way, HE was no friend to the working class either.

But it's all good, you are free to believe as you wish, as this is still a somewhat free society.
May your man in office continue to serve you well.


Cheers..... I'm out.


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## mylon

Older Than Dirt said:


> Probably you should have *payed *more attention in high school



Oh the irony. At least you're not still stealth-flexing your credentials with your "disclaimer" at the end of all your posts.


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## Older Than Dirt

Blow me. So i can't spell very well- i am a high-school drop-out after all.

Posting anything that might be construed as legal advice without a disclaimer can get a person in trouble. At least 90% of my posts here have been about other shit, and thus haven't needed one.
-----------------
Turns out, after checking two actual dictionaries rather than just doing a quick google, that maybe @mylon should have payed more attention in English class if he was planning on trying to flex his language skills. "Payed" is a perfectly respectable past tense of "pay". A bunch of online sources claim it is archaic, or should only be used when referring to rope.This seems to be one of the many made-up rules of English that some like to police.

So blow me twice. And yes, i did leave out a debatable comma there. On purpose.


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## Xxcooltoesxx

Xxcooltoesxx said:


> How about President George Bush he was not intelligent. I lived through multiple crises among the presidents I remember 9/11 ,and I remember the recession, and now it’s covid - 19 .President Donald Trump was the best so far out of those three , Unemployenot was at its lowest,Prison reform,and the stock market was doing good,until this happened . We had some shoddy Presidents over the years, in my opinion ,.,,,With regards to a well regulated militia that could be a Police Force,Secret Police Force ,an Organization,The mafia,Freedom Fighters . Coy wolf put a thread or whatever you call it about Bernie Sanders an I added my two cents to say it,I don’t like how he was against millionaires and billionaires claiming free college for all,,who the fuck is going to be pay all that money,the professors have to get paid ,,,,,books,,,,,,college dorms,,,,and other stuff.But then Bernie Sanders just recently makes millionaire dollars a year.So now it’s screw the billionaires,cut there heads off,an what not , most people worked hard for there money ,whether or not the Rothschild or some families that been making money since before world war 1 , like Henry Ford ,Ray Kroc ,The Ben @ Jerry brothers, and quite a few ,not every millionaire and billionaire is bad or evil . There just like you and I ,there humans to.President Donald Trump eats a bag a chips like we do .I know and think he gets to much shit thrown on him, for a bill to get passed it has to legislative branch,and judicial branch,and to the executive branch.He’s really been chilling.


I meant to say we the people are the militia


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## Older Than Dirt

And i as predicted, Bernie Sanders has endorsed Joe Biden for president:

_The two men appeared via live stream on split screens — each on each other’s live streams — talking to each other. *“We need you in the White House,” Mr. Sanders said to Mr. Biden. “And I will do all that I can to make that happen.”*

Mr. Biden said: “I’m going to need you. Not just to win the campaign, but to govern.”_

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/13/us/politics/bernie-sanders-joe-biden-endorsement.html


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## ridecracksmokestacks

this thread is tl;dr and old news but i hated bernie since 2016 and i'm glad he lost this time around, too. i'm also glad he realized he lost early and endorsed biden, but in reality i think that decision was based on biden being a white guy whereas hillary was a woman.

while i certainly hate bernie the person, i'm very sympathetic to some of his causes and i hope a younger, more competent and less toxic person takes the reigns and makes things actually happen in the future (ayanna pressly? maybe AOC?).


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## Xxcooltoesxx

remember When President Donald Trump ws in a disagremt with China He wassaying there stealing our jobs and everything with the owe make our cellphones ,jordans,that they make in the sweatshops and what not .Move our jobs back here,I don’t really what he was thinking with it’s our countries jobs and such.Then the ga zillio,millio, billionaires started hating on em


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## Coywolf

ridecracksmokestacks said:


> this thread is tl;dr and old news but i hated bernie since 2016 and i'm glad he lost this time around, too. i'm also glad he realized he lost early and endorsed biden, but in reality i think that decision was based on biden being a white guy whereas hillary was a woman.
> 
> while i certainly hate bernie the person, i'm very sympathetic to some of his causes and i hope a younger, more competent and less toxic person takes the reigns and makes things actually happen in the future (ayanna pressly? maybe AOC?).



You are really going to have to explain yourself on that one.


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## ridecracksmokestacks

Coywolf said:


> You are really going to have to explain yourself on that one.



i'm really turned off by ideologues with no clear idea of how they'll accomplish their goals. i'm also not impressed by people with almost no experience, along with a proven inability to do any meaningful coalition building, claiming they can fix everything. bernie was both of those things. 

i also think bernie might be racist/sexist without knowing it. he (and his acolytes) have a huge disconnect with the democratic base, particularly black people. he didn't campaign in the south, called john lewis part of the establishment, called black voters "low information voters" &etc. he was considered one of the worst people to work with in congress. he's from one of the whitest states in the country. while biden was running a campaign on bringing people together, bernie was blathering on about billionaires (amended from his 2016 hatred of "millionaires and billionaires," because since then he'd become the former) and acting like joe rogan's endorsement was a game changer. 

i also think bernie might just be a grifter. after 2016 he became a millionaire by writing a book. he has multiple houses. his wife bankrupted a college. now that he's out, he's withholding donor information and email addresses from other progressive pacs/orgs, instead keeping it in his own hands. i find him fundamentally untrustworthy.

when it came down to him and hillary in 2016, the amount sexist/misogynistic rhetoric was at an all time high among his toxic fanbase. the same thing happened with any female challenger this go-around, too. in general, his supporters killed whatever hope his campaign had. they're by far the most toxic behind MAGAts. sometimes i'd put them on a similar level, especially the bernie or busters. they have enough privilege not to be significantly impacted by four more years of trump, so fuck the LGBT community! fuck POC! they're taking all their toys and going home and acting like it's some noble, principled stand. it's everything wrong with leftist politics imo but that's a discussion for another time.


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## Older Than Dirt

There are some good points there, with a bunch of not true/slanted points.

To be clear (again): i was a big Bernie supporter in 2016, and happily voted for Hillary. i was a big Sen. Dr. Prof. Warren supported this year, Bernie being my second choice. I am now a very enthusiastic "No Malarkey" Joe supporter, and cannot wait for the day he is sworn in.

BUT: Bernie's multiple homes: He owns a pretty small house in Burlington that has been rented out for several years, a condo in DC (where he works being a Senator), and a small house on Hero Island north of Burlington. Pretty much every single Senator and Congressperson has at least two "homes" since they need to maintain a residence in the district they're elected from to keep their office, but actually work in DC.

As to him being a "millionaire": He has a job that pays $174,000 a year, that he''s had for a long time, and has written several best-selling books. If he _didn't_ have a million dollars, that would make him a bigger fuck-up than any of us here. Bernie is not a fuck-up.

His wife Jane, when she was a Burlington city official, was responsible for the first and only city-tax-money-supported all-ages punk venue in the US in 1986. It lasted til 2016; i went to the next-to-last show there and it was pretty fucking cool, and like no place else i ever saw a show.

https://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/burlington-punk-club-242-main-at-30/Content?oid=2511201
https://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/soundbites-242-main-announces-last-show/Content?oid=3755973
*Anyone who is over 18, and doesn't register to vote, and then vote for Biden, will have blood on their hands if King Trump gets re-elected. *

Anyone who says "If voting could change anything, they would make it illegal!" a) doesn't know much about the history of black folks trying to vote in this country, and b) just needs to sit out out this election because Biden doesn't give them a warm tingly feel of purity and PCness inside- then there won't _be_ any more elections.


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## Coywolf

Thank you for that @Older Than Dirt I appreciate the response, saved me ALOT of typing lol.

I dont like Joe Biden, honestly, but there is no fucking way I'm not voting in this election, literally everything I give a shit about in this country is on the line. If you dont vote, or vote third party this election, please dont come in bitching about how shitty life is when trump wins a second term.

I know the president doesnt matter. It isint him you have to worry about. Trump is a moron. You have to worry about his cabinet selections.

2 in particular have me worried on the most important issue dear to me (Public land), Sonny Perdue (USDA) and David Bernhardt (DOI). Two of the most corrupt, anti public land motherfuckers the world has ever known.

The day I see the abolishment of land that I can use (pretty much) freely to sustain my lifestyle, is the day I say 'Fuck all'to this country. I'll happily vote for Biden to achieve that goal.

I think the DNC is fucked this go around though. The chances of another trump term are getting greater and greater the more I hear Bidens ope. His mouth on the campaign trail.

@ridecracksmokestacks alot of what you posted kinda shows you are not really up to date on this topic, and are just reiterating a whole bunch of right wing anti-Sanders logic.

Like @Older Than Dirt said though, some true, some not.


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## ridecracksmokestacks

I will both agree and disagree with both of you. I'll only say I've never liked Bernie, but also say I hope someone better with similar values takes the reins. 

I think you're both 100% correct though: not voting/voting 3rd party is irresponsible. And while I think it's critically important to vote out Trump, voting carries a lot more meaning at the local level. State governors, senators, congresspeople, cabinet members, and especially now -- sheriffs or those who have some influence over sheriffs -- are all important elections to vote in. 

I'm 100% all-in on Biden. But I'm also 100% all-in on recognizing this a problematic system and that voting is a pretty low-effort tool we have at our disposal. There might not be a "ballot we can cast to set us free" but we can still vote on things that make material differences in people's lives.


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