# n00bs...and why we should welcome them



## mkirby

I've heard a lot of stuff from the folk lately about how we shouldn't do things like make zines, or post on websites, or even talk about really, how to get started living this sort of lifestyle. 

Don't teach people how to dumpster dive, or there'll be no goodies left for us, don't talk about squatting or they'll all get blown, etc, etc. 

Can't you people see that this isn't a logical way of thinking?

I can understand you not wanting a bunch of oogles running around fucking things up for you in places where you've got good situations. But that doesn't mean we should stop trying to convert people to a life that obviously moves the world in a better direction.

You know what happens when we get people scavenging and forgaging? Maybe they see that it's illogical for food to be locked up, and we get more of a free economy when it comes to the basics.

You know what happens when you move people into empty houses? People stop honoring bank foreclosures and move the fuck back into their HOMES and stop seeing a roof and warmth as a luxury. Maybe they start seeing it as a right that they'd fight to protect. 

I'm SO SICK of this crustier-than-thou, I've-got-this-many-miles-under-my-belt, pretentious, fucking asshole attitude that some of these kids have. It's not a secret club. Everyone is allowed. 

Most people live this way for a reason. Travelers have all kinds of personal politics, but I think most of us share common views on certain things. 

Most of us don't like basic necessities being withheld in order to force the people in this culture to be submissive, complacent, overstimulated slaves, AFRAID of not being warm and fed and loved, forever oppressed by a faceless government puppeted by the rich greedy CEOS of demonic corporate entities that destroy the planet and make the world a generally shitty place to live.

When we find a way not to participate in all that bullshit so much, we shouldn't hoard it for ourselves.

We should all spread the message that there's hope for freedom in this life.


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## KoffinKat

fucking thank you


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## madewithpaint

a'men! glad someone said it.


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## john1158

iam way way way more likely to share info and stuff in person than iam online or in a public place online......
thats just me thoe.....
at the same time it would have been really nice when i 1st stared to have a nice resorce like this site....
i dont think you need a website to figure it out thoe.....


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## john1158

maybe iam a jerk


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## gregk

well said! i'm with you on that and keep speaking your mind dont worry for a second if there are those that dont like what you say. i'm a member on another site for 3.5 yrs and have allmost 10k posts and i'm known to say whats on my mind and i'm comforatable doing so there. if i wasnt i wouldnt still be a member!


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## bote

I agree that friendliness is good. On the other hand, I think sometimes if something comes too easy or is put in a nice, safe package, it makes it less interesting.


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## Beegod Santana

I'm always willing to help someone out if they just ask. However if I get a retarded pm from someone who obviously doesn't have a clue what they're talking about, I'm less likely to send them info because I don't feel that they have enough real life experience to put it to good use. Also, if a community like this one gets totally run over by the "I'm 17, have never traveled before and am looking for someone to come babysit me and show me everything," crowd, then the whole point is kinda defeated. For a community such as this one we need people to contribute to the general knowedge pool, not just drink off it. Doesn't mean you have to contribute a shit ton, but a little more than "I need someone to show me everything and hold my hand through it so I can live out my own personal dreams of freedom on their time" would be nice.

and oh ya, fuck all ya'll oogles...

just go out and do it, get off the fucking computer already.

AND NO!!! I don't want to listen to any more Philly punk.


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## oldmanLee

None of us are as we started .Forgive an old fart,but I feel that this site sould welcome anyone that comes seeking,as it is the right of the uninformed to seek ansewers,and the duty of those that are out in the world to provide those ansewers if they can.The successful nomadic cultures(think Mongol,Rom,Commanche)have always been open to the natural ossmosis of ideas and people.If we find ourselves unable to do more than say "Hello and good luck";fine!No one is espousing feeding the no doubt hordes of drainbows,trustifarians,and generic "On The Road" posers that will fall by the wayside at the first hint of difficuty.What I hope for is the free exchange of information by a free people.Some of those people have little experience,but heart and sinew and soul ready for what will be a task that few have the courage to see to its end.
So,no matter how "green" the person is,I'd like to say a resounding "HOWDY!".We can find out if they are worth the time of day as they make themselves know by their words and their deeds,but don't shut them out just because they are new.
Lee Byiers,approching the 2 million mile mark as a rubbertramp/hitcher/trainhopper,citizen of the world.


PS,could someone define "oogle"?Is it a wannabe that does all the risktaking online?


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## mkirby

Oogle's just sort of a derrogatory term for someone who's new to traveling, generally someone who makes stupid decisions as a result of inexperience.


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## Smallredbox

I agree with what you say 100%


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## finn

Not to disagree with you, but I thought we more often used the term 'oogles' to describe, not noobs, but stupid people who make stupid decisions as a result of not caring about others and sometimes not even themselves, regardless of experience. I figure you are talking about people out in the real world, since on this forum, they can always search it. Anyway, I actually do welcome noobs, but I usually require them to first go hitchhiking if they want to trainhop. If they can't do that, then I figure it's not for them. A coward is not going to be any good on the rails, or anywhere really.


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## connerR

hitchhiking with nickcofphee in fresno was way more difficult than train hopping! 

anyway, i think spreading a message about this lifestyle isn't going to do much. the majority of society views squatters/trainhoppers/etc as freaks, insane, hopeless, etc. it would take a monumental amount of convincing to sway the public opinion. recreational trainhopping is the only somewhat mainstream thing ive noticed. 

since im a noob to the scene, im thankful that there were people who showed me some things. but its not for everyone. 

most of it isn't even for me!


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## Rash L

its not for everyone... but ONE person at a time...
I think personal conversations get more across in a better way. This site has helped me out a lot on some of the finer details, and I'm sure its helped others as well, so I think its a good source for information for those who already know they want to travel, but want to learn more about the various lifestyles that include traveling with little to no cash flow. noobs arent bad, as long as they are willing to learn and take the time I guess.


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## Livingpastense

connerR said:


> hitchhiking with nickcofphee in fresno was way more difficult than train hopping!
> 
> anyway, i think spreading a message about this lifestyle isn't going to do much. the majority of society views squatters/trainhoppers/etc as freaks, insane, hopeless, etc. it would take a monumental amount of convincing to sway the public opinion. recreational trainhopping is the only somewhat mainstream thing ive noticed.
> 
> since im a noob to the scene, im thankful that there were people who showed me some things. but its not for everyone.
> 
> most of it isn't even for me!



i think hitching is way harder than hopping anyday


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## hartage

What is the alternative to free dissemination of information ? Hogging is information control. A tool used by those in power to oppress those that are not. Funny how some people (not on this thread) will rail against oppression and elitism but given the chance are themselves oppressors and elitists. 

If anything should be free to everyone it should be information.


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## stove

I'm with ya mkirby, with a slight nod to acknowledge that it is possible for some info to become TOO easy. Look at Hitchwiki: it's a great resource for hitching (more in europe), but the people whom started out with it never learned to scout a good hitching spot on their own. I absolutely do no believe in censorship, but sadly some folks will take what they can and then get screwed when they are on their own. How many of you know squatters whom didn't know how to scout/set up a squat, or trainriders whom can't scout a yard, or dudes/chicks on the road without a tarp, because nobody told them it might rain? I'm not saying this info should be restricted, but it's a delicate balance to RESPONSIBLY disseminate some info, especially when misuse will get not only get the oogle busted, but also blow up the squat/dumpster/jungle/scam w/e. Just a small counterpoint, not saying that I have any sort of solution.


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## finn

hartage said:


> What is the alternative to free dissemination of information ? Hogging is information control. A tool used by those in power to oppress those that are not. Funny how some people (not on this thread) will rail against oppression and elitism but given the chance are themselves oppressors and elitists.
> 
> If anything should be free to everyone it should be information.



A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. I have some medical techniques that I'm not going to share because it is not a do-no-harm protocol, and you have to know what you're doing when you do it, else it makes things worse- is that oppression or elitism? And I'm not going to teach everyone how to make knives because it takes hours and I have no obligation to give random people my time. I really hate people who think I owe them something for just existing.


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## hartage

Widerstand said:


> Give some examples.



As I said "not from this thread" I'm going by what mkirby posted



mkirby said:


> I've heard a lot of stuff from the folk lately about how we shouldn't do things like make zines, or post on websites, or even talk about really, how to get started living this sort of lifestyle.
> 
> Don't teach people how to dumpster dive, or there'll be no goodies left for us, don't talk about squatting or they'll all get blown, etc, etc.
> 
> Can't you people see that this isn't a logical way of thinking?
> 
> I can understand you not wanting a bunch of oogles running around fucking things up for you in places where you've got good situations. But that doesn't mean we should stop trying to convert people to a life that obviously moves the world in a better direction.
> 
> You know what happens when we get people scavenging and forgaging? Maybe they see that it's illogical for food to be locked up, and we get more of a free economy when it comes to the basics.
> 
> You know what happens when you move people into empty houses? People stop honoring bank foreclosures and move the fuck back into their HOMES and stop seeing a roof and warmth as a luxury. Maybe they start seeing it as a right that they'd fight to protect.
> 
> I'm SO SICK of this crustier-than-thou, I've-got-this-many-miles-under-my-belt, pretentious, fucking asshole attitude that some of these kids have. It's not a secret club. Everyone is allowed.



Not teaching others how to dumpsterdive for fear of less for themselves = it's ok for another to starve as long as I have more. Witholding knowledge for personal gain or your own group's gain is no different that what the "system" , bankers, (insert oppresive group name here) does to us that so many rail about.


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## hartage

finn said:


> A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. I have some medical techniques that I'm not going to share because it is not a do-no-harm protocol, and you have to know what you're doing when you do it, else it makes things worse- is that oppression or elitism?



Aw c'mon, apples and oranges. Not showing someone how to hurt other people by attempting a risky medical procedure is very, very different than not showing how to dumpster dive for fear of less resources for themselves.

On that point though. I believe in regulating those that are allowed to attempt the procedure to those "certified" only. But I still believe the information on the mechanics behind the procedure and the procedure itself should remain free.

There are many justifications for censorship. But ultimately it is censorship.



finn said:


> And I'm not going to teach everyone how to make knives because it takes hours and I have no obligation to give random people my time. I really hate people who think I owe them something for just existing.



Hence the internet, books, zines and other publications. I never said it should take up your time to teach individually. Just to make the information available to others and not withhold it given a choice between the two for reasons of self interest.


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## Beegod Santana

hartage said:


> Aw c'mon, apples and oranges. Not showing someone how to hurt other people by attempting a risky medical procedure is very, very different than not showing how to dumpster dive for fear of less resources for themselves.



If you need to be "shown" how to dumpster dive then you have no place on the road. I'm with finn and widerstand. No one held my hand and introduced me to this lifestyle and the fact that I figured it out on my own doesn't mean I have a responsibility now to show other people how to travel. I don't "owe" any of these newbies anything. If you're fucking starving, but still need someone to show you how to dig through the trash... just fucking die. This isn't an easy lifestyle, and it gets harder when there's a bunch of useless kids wandering around being dicks to the general public because they feel the world "owes" them something. If you can't figure out how to stick your thumb out by the highway... stay the fuck home. HOWEVER, if you've already put yourself out there and have specific questions about locations or trains or what not, I'm happy to help you, cause at least I know you're not totally worthless.


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## Dameon

I'm with Beegod on this. Nobody held my hand and showed me how to hold out my thumb, dig in the trash, or find a place to sleep. It's all really basic stuff, and if somebody can't figure it out on their own, they're probably not going to survive out here. Not everybody is suited to life on the road, and all the zines and websites in the world will not suddenly make them into a traveller.

The finer details are nice to have freely available, but at the same time, there's a point where too much detail on some subjects can be a bad thing. A good example was how I heard that somebody mapped out the good dumpsters around Seattle online, and then what happened? Yuppies started dumpster diving for food, loading up trucks, throwing trash everywhere and leaving nothing for the people that actually need that food to survive.

I'll give newbies some tips, direct them toward feeds, but I refuse to hold their hand and show them the basics of survival that should be obvious to anybody with half a brain. Doesn't mean I look down on them, and I don't have a holier than thou attitude, but I refuse to be a baby sitter.


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## Rash L

as for this silly dumpster diving debate.... seriously, the most I've ever had to teach someone about diving was to respect your dumpster and clean the shit up when you're done. The whole process of retrieving things from the trash is kind of self explanatory -- toddlers do it naturally before they can even speak 2 word sentences.


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## hartage

Beegod Santana said:


> If you need to be "shown" how to dumpster dive then you have no place on the road. I'm with finn and widerstand. No one held my hand and introduced me to this lifestyle and the fact that I figured it out on my own doesn't mean I have a responsibility now to show other people how to travel. I don't "owe" any of these newbies anything. If you're fucking starving, but still need someone to show you how to dig through the trash... just fucking die. This isn't an easy lifestyle, and it gets harder when there's a bunch of useless kids wandering around being dicks to the general public because they feel the world "owes" them something. If you can't figure out how to stick your thumb out by the highway... stay the fuck home. HOWEVER, if you've already put yourself out there and have specific questions about locations or trains or what not, I'm happy to help you, cause at least I know you're not totally worthless.



This justification isn't too far off from what conservatives, republicans, rich and that sort of ilk use against us. Goes along the same lines of I did it by my bootstraps and if you can't do the same thing too bad so sad just rot your a looser anyways. We don't like it when they use that against us. Why use that kind of mentality against our own ?

It's just a good thing not everyone feels the way you do. If they did only rich people with rich families that can afford college could get an education. Those that don't think like you do and believe in helping those less able. They are the one's that made possible grants and student loans to get an education. That way an education is not limited to families that "did it by their own bootstraps" only. (families that could afford to pay for college out of pocket)

I did it the hard way so somehow I am more deserving or better than you. Isn't that the very elitism that we stand against ?


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## Rash L

Dameon said:


> The finer details are nice to have freely available, but at the same time, there's a point where too much detail on some subjects can be a bad thing. A good example was how I heard that somebody mapped out the good dumpsters around Seattle online, and then what happened? Yuppies started dumpster diving for food, loading up trucks, throwing trash everywhere and leaving nothing for the people that actually need that food to survive.
> 
> I'll give newbies some tips, direct them toward feeds, but I refuse to hold their hand and show them the basics of survival that should be obvious to anybody with half a brain. Doesn't mean I look down on them, and I don't have a holier than thou attitude, but I refuse to be a baby sitter.



I'm with ya on this... someone actually mapped that shit out!? and put it ONLINE!?!? oy vey!
there are just certain things that shouldnt be broadcast to EVERYONE indiscriminately... hence the whole thing about personal conversations and advice given by word of mouth. the internet can fuck things up real bad sometimes.... like telling your friends about an awesome squat can be fun, while writing a zine about it and including the address can get the pigs hot on your trail and fuck ALL the fun up. Sometimes I swear people dont think at all...


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## desaparecido

mkirby said:


> You know what happens when we get people scavenging and forgaging? Maybe they see that it's illogical for food to be locked up, and we get more of a free economy when it comes to the basics.
> 
> I'm SO SICK of this crustier-than-thou, I've-got-this-many-miles-under-my-belt, pretentious, fucking asshole attitude that some of these kids have. It's not a secret club. Everyone is allowed.


i appreciate the sentiment that it's helpful in the long run but have you ever been to a third world country? (some of our southern neighbors would suffice)
you can't find food in the trash.
and that certainly doesn't make it free at the store.


and i'd like to point out that usually the people who are so frustrated with the "crustier than thou i've got this many miles under my belt" attitude are in fact "n00bs" and they're frustrated that noone gives them respect because they're n00bs, but THAT'S A GOOD THING, because then the people who are only into it for the scene quickly get discouraged and go back home, and the people doing it out of love just keep at it until eventually they become crustier than thou. i intentionally do all of these things you're talking about and make it unwelcoming to n00bs because it weeds out the fakes.:soldier:


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## hartage

desaparecido said:


> i intentionally do all of these things you're talking about and make it unwelcoming to n00bs because it weeds out the fakes.:soldier:



The "system" that everyone here seems to supposedly be against does exactly what YOU YOURSELF does. It is designed to weed out the "loosers" and generally anybody that can't hack it in that environment. Some people call that oppression. They consider US loosers, fakes and frauds for not doing what they do.

Why is it ok for you to do to others but not ok when others do it to you ? (not you personally but you as in our group and others as in those in power)


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## finn

hartage said:


> ...On that point though. I believe in regulating those that are allowed to attempt the procedure to those "certified" only. But I still believe the information on the mechanics behind the procedure and the procedure itself should remain free.
> 
> There are many justifications for censorship. But ultimately it is censorship.
> 
> Hence the internet, books, zines and other publications. I never said it should take up your time to teach individually. Just to make the information available to others and not withhold it given a choice between the two for reasons of self interest.



Your arguments would be stronger if you chose your words a bit more carefully, and the fact that you never affirm your past mistakes don't really help your skills either, since I notice that you just switch your line of argument and disregard your previous statements. Choosing not to freely distribute information is not censorship. Censorship is obstructing someone from saying or showing something.

And there are plenty of material on and off the computers about making knives, if only people showed a little bit of initiative. My point is that if people showed some initiative by doing some of the background research, teaching them to do nearly anything would be a piece of cake (compared to having to teach them everything from the ground up), but this is not often the case. It's in my self interest not to have to spend extra hours teaching them things that they could have learned on their own. If they don't really want it, I don't see why I have to be the one making the effort.


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## MeatyMax

While I would have to agree with the whole being open to people who have the conviction to do something, in this case "transient technologies", I would agree that the more easily accessible something is, the harder it is to actually do it. Knowledge sources such as this are great for people who can really use the information to make themselves much safer and more efficient with doing whatever they are doing. But let's not kid ourselves in saying that anyone and their mother have A WHOLE bunch of information in their hands after spending an hour or two in knowledge sources such as this one. 
It's kinda like those long metal strip things cops use to unlock doors. Imagine just handing those out to anyone and everyone. Man that would be a lifesaver when you lock your keys in the car and you just have to go get it and you are on your way. But EVERYBODY would have one. I feel this would do more harm then good in the long run.
There's pros and cons to both Elitism and open for everyone.
Just my 2 cents


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## hartage

finn said:


> Your arguments would be stronger if you chose your words a bit more carefully, and the fact that you never affirm your past mistakes don't really help your skills either, since I notice that you just switch your line of argument and disregard your previous statements. Choosing not to freely distribute information is not censorship. Censorship is obstructing someone from saying or showing something.
> 
> And there are plenty of material on and off the computers about making knives, if only people showed a little bit of initiative. My point is that if people showed some initiative by doing some of the background research, teaching them to do nearly anything would be a piece of cake (compared to having to teach them everything from the ground up), but this is not often the case. It's in my self interest not to have to spend extra hours teaching them things that they could have learned on their own. If they don't really want it, I don't see why I have to be the one making the effort.



We are on different levels here. You are talking about your personal effort on not feeling you have to do one on one. I don't disagree with you. However, people are saying it shouldn't be put on-line or rather on-line resources shouldn't exist for how-to travel. Denial of access to information is censorship. If others are willing to put the effort into creating a website to disseminate information and people are saying it shouldn't exist. That very much fits the description of suppression of information, censorship.

As to switching my arguments or positions. The world is not black and white. Fluid and gray is a better description. Rest assured that in my mind my position is clear. That clarity could be dilute or lost all together in communication and translation is a given. Let me clarify. Actions are and should be regulated. Information however, barring privacy and other concerns should be free and accessible to everyone seeking it. As an example. I know that if I take a knife and slip it between ribs at particular locations depths and angles will cause massive blood loss. The dissemination of that information to myself has not produced a single instance of me doing that. Information that resides in my head with the understanding of the consequences further REINFORCES not doing it. If I didn't know that information I would not know NOT to do it.

In your particular case with medical procedures. What would it serve if you refused to tell me information on a procedure on the silly notion that I will go out and recklessly attempt to perform it on someone else ? The social duty to protect me from myself stopped at 18.


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## Ravie

I'll be the asshole here. I don't care. Know what happens when theres alot of us in the same place? people dont give more, its not supply and demand in the homeless community, its people giving/wasting the same amount everyday if not less and it spreads to however many homeless that are in the area. now what happens when there is way more kids asking for money/food/dumpstering than what is being given out? we starve and make barely any to no money. I don't encourage kids with money to spange or to dumpster. The wasted food is going to be dumpstered and not wasted either way, except now we have these kids saying "I'm fighting waste!" even though they could have eaten the food at home or at their moms and given the dumpstered food to someone who hasnt eated in two days. I'm just saying that being that open DOES atrtract oogles and it DOES impact us.

I didnt learn how to travel/dumpster/ride trains/hitch or anything off a website. I had to learn the hard way by going hungry, getting stuck in a town for days, and getting insanely sick. Learning the hard way is what makes us kids smart and strong, without learning these things by yourself or in reality we have a bunch of stupid kids running around acting like they know what their doing because they read a how-to off the internet. know what happens to them? they reach into a garbage can and get poked by a needle, they get the shit beat out of them for spanging in someone elses area, and they get cut in half by tains. Its a dangerous thing to just tell someone "it's okay! this is pretty much how its done! go have fun! your making a difference! it's not that hard!" and this also encourages runaways, kids way too young, and stupid people to go out and get hurt, raped, and the shit beat out of them. I'ts not a joke or a hobby, It's a hard lifestyle and should be respected as one.

Oh and ide like to add, yeah, ive introduced people to the lifestyle, but they had to prove that they could handle it and that they had good reasons for being out here other than they hated their mommy. I take kids that their parents raped/ beat the shit out of them and kids that were just born to travel but need a jumpstart. The only thing I ever teach is how to travel, what not to eat out of a dumpster, respect, how to hold their liquore, and road etiquette. if you need to teach anymore or babysit they arent meant for it and they are stuck in fantacy land.


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## hartage

Ravie said:


> I'll be the asshole here. I don't care. Know what happens when theres alot of us in the same place? people dont give more, its not supply and demand in the homeless community, its people giving/wasting the same amount everyday if not less and it spreads to however many homeless that are in the area. now what happens when there is way more kids asking for money/food/dumpstering than what is being given out? we starve and make barely any to no money. I don't encourage kids with money to spange or to dumpster. The wasted food is going to be dumpstered and not wasted either way, except now we have these kids saying "I'm fighting waste!" even though they could have eaten the food at home or at their moms and given the dumpstered food to someone who hasnt eated in two days. I'm just saying that being that open DOES atrtract oogles and it DOES impact us.
> 
> I didnt learn how to travel/dumpster/ride trains/hitch or anything off a website. I had to learn the hard way by going hungry, getting stuck in a town for days, and getting insanely sick. Learning the hard way is what makes us kids smart and strong, without learning these things by yourself or in reality we have a bunch of stupid kids running around acting like they know what their doing because they read a how-to off the internet. know what happens to them? they reach into a garbage can and get poked by a needle, they get the shit beat out of them for spanging in someone elses area, and they get cut in half by tains. Its a dangerous thing to just tell someone "it's okay! this is pretty much how its done! go have fun! your making a difference! it's not that hard!" and this also encourages runaways, kids way too young, and stupid people to go out and get hurt, raped, and the shit beat out of them. I'ts not a joke or a hobby, It's a hard lifestyle and should be respected as one.
> 
> Oh and ide like to add, yeah, ive introduced people to the lifestyle, but they had to prove that they could handle it and that they had good reasons for being out here other than they hated their mommy. I take kids that their parents raped/ beat the shit out of them and kids that were just born to travel but need a jumpstart. The only thing I ever teach is how to travel, what not to eat out of a dumpster, respect, how to hold their liquore, and road etiquette. if you need to teach anymore or babysit they arent meant for it and they are stuck in fantacy land.



We mostly agree. The lifestyle will quickly weed out those where neither heart nor necessity exist. I'm just saying leave it to the lifestyle to do the weeding. It would suck to judge someone as not deserving of this "golden knowledge" only to be wrong about it. Plenty of people out there aren't what you think and really could be more hungry than you but just too new to it.

Why is it I even have to stick up for non-judgment and freedom of information of all places HERE AT STP ?


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## Ravie

well it's not like we are gods. if one of us is an ass and tells them to go home to mommy and that discourages them and they go home instead of telling the person to fuck off and finding a different person/way to do it, i consider that the lifestyle "weeding out." Our lifestyle is 75% about people and 25% traveling when you think about it. Overcomming the assholes and judgement and fighting to learn is a huge part of it. If you cant do that then wow, your fucked. I'm not saying that I think we should judge people before we know them and deny them. I'm saying after i get to know someone and I can tell they cant handle it or they would be a disgrace to the traveling community, I'm not going to be the one to give them the idea of hopping a train and a week later they die. I'm especially not going to support anything online giving people the idea to do things they cant handle, especially because you dont know who they are. you might post something about "how to hop on the fly" and thats fine for people who understand and respect trains, but it could be ANYONE reading it! a fucking 12 year old could read it and have enough balls to go and try it. my point is to be careful of who learns what you teach. I'm not against helping people out, it's basically my life to be so nice it kills me, but i think about things beyond teaching, like who it will effect and how it will effect. it's not like teaching someone how to paint. paint wont cut off your arm.


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## IBRRHOBO

Ravie said:


> I'll be the asshole here. I don't care. Know what happens when theres alot of us in the same place? people dont give more, its not supply and demand in the homeless community, its people giving/wasting the same amount everyday if not less and it spreads to however many homeless that are in the area. now what happens when there is way more kids asking for money/food/dumpstering than what is being given out? we starve and make barely any to no money. I don't encourage kids with money to spange or to dumpster. The wasted food is going to be dumpstered and not wasted either way, except now we have these kids saying "I'm fighting waste!" even though they could have eaten the food at home or at their moms and given the dumpstered food to someone who hasnt eated in two days. I'm just saying that being that open DOES atrtract oogles and it DOES impact us.
> 
> I didnt learn how to travel/dumpster/ride trains/hitch or anything off a website. I had to learn the hard way by going hungry, getting stuck in a town for days, and getting insanely sick. Learning the hard way is what makes us kids smart and strong, without learning these things by yourself or in reality we have a bunch of stupid kids running around acting like they know what their doing because they read a how-to off the internet. know what happens to them? they reach into a garbage can and get poked by a needle, they get the shit beat out of them for spanging in someone elses area, and they get cut in half by tains. Its a dangerous thing to just tell someone "it's okay! this is pretty much how its done! go have fun! your making a difference! it's not that hard!" and this also encourages runaways, kids way too young, and stupid people to go out and get hurt, raped, and the shit beat out of them. I'ts not a joke or a hobby, It's a hard lifestyle and should be respected as one.
> 
> Oh and ide like to add, yeah, ive introduced people to the lifestyle, but they had to prove that they could handle it and that they had good reasons for being out here other than they hated their mommy. I take kids that their parents raped/ beat the shit out of them and kids that were just born to travel but need a jumpstart. The only thing I ever teach is how to travel, what not to eat out of a dumpster, respect, how to hold their liquore, and road etiquette. if you need to teach anymore or babysit they arent meant for it and they are stuck in fantacy land.



i like that. and it gives a good perspective on the current age/scene out there! i'm a bit older and there really wasn't anyone to 'teach' anyone when i started. i rode w/some old timers and shit, but they were REAL protective of their 'spots'. you had to prove yourself and then all the money was thrown in a circle we cut w/a knife around the firepit and divied it up.

i don't mind sharing info of the generic nature. '...yeah, the ns pulling out down there usually takes u to charlotte... .' i don't believe specific information should ever be given out (at least pertaining to the rails) to the novice. dumpstering? that's kinda common sense. hit and miss. no brainer to see a mickey d's and know they throw food. watch 'em for rotation and there you have it.

i don't think i am real supportive of spreading ALL information around, though. for example: on my site if you're trying to get detailed information on the Yard Info section (and it is a digital CCG so to speak) you had to of physically met someone in my crew or who is a member of the site. our waystations are the same way. that's kinda where Ravie and i agree: if you tend to throw out all the info to anyone and everyone you're gonna burn out an area.

the other problem w/creating virtual access to all noobs/oogles or whatever the scene term is today is that you do a disservice. finn may appreciate this analogy as he does medicine: when i grew up we had disease parties. when someone got chicken pox all the kids were taken to the house to catch them. why? so that the immune system would develop a resistance to them w/o innoculation. so, then, i feel that newbies should walk blind a bit and get some basics on their own before they are given a bunch of info that has been hard earned. take the freight hopper: give them a ccg and then they wander off to the c/o spot in the yard, don't know that stepping on the knuckle when the train is about to pull could kill them and voila, the body is found w/a ccg on it and the yard is hot for a year.

long story short: basic survival information is common sense. once the newbie proves capable to having the capacity of common sense invite them around the fire to have a chat.


----------



## Ravie

exactly my point guys.


----------



## hartage

Widerstand said:


> I am fine and happy with withholding knowledge from other people for my own for personal gain and for the gain of my trusted friends.
> 
> Example: If I put in a shit ton of leg work researching trains, origins and destinations, yards...etc. why the fuck should I give it to anyone? I did all the fucking work and who the fuck are you to me? and why should I care about you enough to spoon feed you information that your to lazy to find out yourself?
> 
> It sounds like a bunch of PC bullshit if you ask me.



Agreed, I guess when we do it, it's the right thing to do. When other people do it it's called oppression, secret societies, control, the "system", the "man". When they do it let's burn down buildings, take down radio towers. When we do it it's all good.

Call it PC bullshit if it lets you sleep better at night. Once in a while though try to look at your own actions and see if it is any different than the "bad people's " actions. Next time you claim injustice see if your doing the exact same thing. 

The quoted post of yours above sounds a LOT like the justification many conservative republicans use. " who the fuck are you to me? and why should I care " " for my own for personal gain and for the gain of my trusted friends "

Just my 2 cents......


----------



## hartage

Widerstand said:


> So whats the answer then hartage? Do you want everyone to live in a happy world were information is all open and free to everyone at anytime?



Lol, ya being here I did assume you would not be a conservative right wing republican. My bad, I guess you are. 


My answer to it already exists. There is freedom of speech protecting people that want to publish information on their own terms.

I was just stating the position that information should be available to everyone. Laws protect those that want to withhold and those that want to publish. I also wanted to point out that we as travelers often do the very same things that we don't like done to us. That simply sucks.

I do understand the issue of limited resources supplying an increasing population if information were more disseminated. But like innocent till proven guilty. I'd much rather not judge someone and based on being wrong deny information that could have really helped them. 

We will never live in a happy world. But is it wrong to keep working at it ?


----------



## Beegod Santana

hartage said:


> We mostly agree. The lifestyle will quickly weed out those where neither heart nor necessity exist. I'm just saying leave it to the lifestyle to do the weeding. It would suck to judge someone as not deserving of this "golden knowledge" only to be wrong about it. Plenty of people out there aren't what you think and really could be more hungry than you but just too new to it.
> 
> Why is it I even have to stick up for non-judgment and freedom of information of all places HERE AT STP ?



Sounds like someone's really fiending for that "golden knowledge." You've only been on the site for 2 months or so, none of your recent posts offer any knowedge about traveling what-so-ever, yet you seem really concerned that not every trainrider on here is offering up everything they know about trains to everybody and their mom. It's " squat the planet" man, not "babysit the planet." FYI, there's a LOT of sensitive info passed between travelers on this site through pms. You my friend, don't sound like a traveler at all however. From reading your posts it doesn't even sound like you've even squatted before. Maybe there's a reason no one's passed on this "golden knowledge" to you yet. My guess would be because you'd have no use for it BECAUSE YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY NOT A TRAVELER. 

As far as me being a conservative republican... I don't even know where to begin to describe all the things that are wrong w/ that statement. 

Basically it sounds to me like you're very quick to call people assholes for not providing public sensitive info for the site, but it doesn't look like you've contributed much more than bitching about how the world "should" be. Well maybe instead of talking about how the world "should" be and posting political threads, maybe you should write a "meat and potatoes" thread where you actually give out some usual info. Perhaps then one of us will bestow upon you the sacred "golden knowledge" of how to climb a ladder and get on a train.


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## IBRRHOBO

bah ha ha! i make the most extreme right wingers look like bleeding heart liberals! ach! properly speaking i'm a libertarian though. i think ALL government programs are shit, but that's for another thread. i also don't really care what anyone's political class is; probably a reason matt and others tolerate me on here. now i _debate_ anarchy here (the ideology) as that's kinda the whole reason for the site (an anarchistic point-of-view forum) the way i understand matt laying it out (moderator correct me if i'm wrong). politics are like religion; both are best kept at home while on a date, 'eh?

as to hartage's desire to obtain (or have samesaid obtainable for the masses) the inner sanctum's knowledge (i like the metaphor there), i am concerned. truth is blinding in its brilliance to the masses (forget where i got that from, but don't attribute it to me). the analogy is this: how can one TRULY appreciate say sexual intercourse if one has not known love? ah, miopicly we could say that sex satiates the physiological; however, both appreciation and love are (even when juxtaposed) metaphysical. so to, then, the relationship between the 'carnal' information (i.e.; the train is here or there and goes here or there) and the metaphysical (i.e.; the dissemination of compartmentalized, 'secret' information (here's when you catch it, your liquor store is there, you can safely camp here, the rr freqs are thus and thus) to those rising above the mere rank and file).

is information a commodity? abso-fucking-lutely! is freight hopping (as opposed to say hitchiking) a fraternity/sorority? yup. and in that no touchy-feely, save-a-ho mentality is ever gonna change that. the primary reason is that there are FAR too many stupid kids w/tattoos who think that because they haven't showered for a week, have scabbies, a black anarchy patch or what-the-fuck ever, they are owed for being derelicts! now there's kids who fit those descriptions who are pretty responsible (had a few here at my waystation). still, the information is not readily passed out.

i am always concerned about those who querry sensitive information. old alarm bells ring from my days in intelligence.


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## hartage

Beegod Santana said:


> Sounds like someone's really fiending for that "golden knowledge." You've only been on the site for 2 months or so, none of your recent posts offer any knowedge about traveling what-so-ever, yet you seem really concerned that not every trainrider on here is offering up everything they know about trains to everybody and their mom. It's " squat the planet" man, not "babysit the planet." FYI, there's a LOT of sensitive info passed between travelers on this site through pms. You my friend, don't sound like a traveler at all however. From reading your posts it doesn't even sound like you've even squatted before. Maybe there's a reason no one's passed on this "golden knowledge" to you yet. My guess would be because you'd have no use for it BECAUSE YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY NOT A TRAVELER.
> 
> As far as me being a conservative republican... I don't even know where to begin to describe all the things that are wrong w/ that statement.
> 
> Basically it sounds to me like you're very quick to call people assholes for not providing public sensitive info for the site, but it doesn't look like you've contributed much more than bitching about how the world "should" be. Well maybe instead of talking about how the world "should" be and posting political threads, maybe you should write a "meat and potatoes" thread where you actually give out some usual info. Perhaps then one of us will bestow upon you the sacred "golden knowledge" of how to climb a ladder and get on a train.



Ahh.... from the debated subject to personal attacks on my integrity now eh ? Fantastic ! That didn't take you long at all did it ? Eh, not a big surprise. 

Two months or so on here.... Then you mention giving out usual info.... What is this ? Are we whipping it out now and comparing penis length ? Boy you sure got your feathers ruffled. Points with zero basis in truth are shrugged off without a second thought. Points that hit a nerve though.... only does so if there is a truth in there to hit. 

Alright, let me satisfy your penis length fetish. I have stated openly in chat, PM's and posts what my situation is. That I got in a car wreck. That my life was turned upside down and that the appeal of the freedom of traveling brought me here. I've said openly to many people here that I have not ridden rails, flown signs, dumpster dived or even hitch hiked. That I'm here to learn from everyone before I set off on my own next year after I heal from my injuries and settle legal issues. 

*CONGRATULATIONS CAPTAIN OBVIOUS ! FOR CLARIFYING WHAT I'VE BEEN TELLING PEOPLE HERE THE WHOLE TIME I'VE BEEN HERE *

So where does this go now ? We turn this personal I hunt you down you hunt me down ? My interest was to stick up for freedom of information and not be judgmental towards others. I'm not sinking to your level. If it makes you happy and satisfies your penis length issues I'll bow and admit.... You have more experience than my zero experience in everything train related, dumpster related, etc. I don't steal, I'm clean, I don't drink, I don't smoke pot or smoke, I don't abuse any drugs. Oh yeah and I almost forgot, I hang out with the rainbow family (hippies) also. There, are you all happy now ? Want a lollipop too ?

Now I'll tell you what I am. I'm the guy that didn't care if you are black, white, yellow or purple. I don't give a shit if someone is rich or broke. I don't care if your a punk, redneck, or whatever group you identify with. I don't care if you know less than I do or more than I do, smarter or not. As long as you treat me well I will treat you well. 

What do you know ? How to be an elitist ? Personal attacks when someone disagrees with you ? When a thread breaks down into personal attacks that's my cue to exit stage left.


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## hartage

IBRRHOBO said:


> i am always concerned about those who querry sensitive information. old alarm bells ring from my days in intelligence.



If your that concerned ask matt to look over the logs and see if I've asked about, discussed, or even come across any of your sacred information. I've said to plenty of people here that after thinking about it I'm gonna rubber tramp or hitch it. I don't have the time to figure out RR. I don't have the back (anymore) to be hopping on/off moving trains. Hell my pocketbook can't handle tickets so I might not even hitch. Freedom of travel of having no commitments drew me here. Keep all your precious RR info, I didn't even ask for it.

If you really knew your shit in intelligence. I'm sure you would have realized that this site is hosted. Getting info at the server itself takes far less effort. Is completely invisible and total in scope. It's also just sitting in a rack somewhere out of sight out of mind to everyone including matt. Golden rule of computer security. If you have physical access to the box you own it, period. But hey, if you think I'm Mr. Slick superspy I'll go with that. It's a hell of a lot more glamorous than reality.


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## IBRRHOBO

the last sentence wasn't directed at you; i am always blunt when i confront folks. you've never asked me for spot on rr info; i actually believe i spoke w/you about some coding one time and that's from another thread.

as to the server being easier to gain info, i disagree. what's displayed in the threads is public (see Time's Article). getting log files are FAR more difficult and require a warrant (Widerstand will vouch for this as he has read the emails between me and the Department of Defense over their requests for such pertaining to my sites).

in addressing my '...knowing my shit...' in intelligence, i was a glamorous paper pusher; an analyst. my dd-214 hangs on my wall and those who've been here can attest to it. btw the 214 is a discharge paper from military service and it's issued to those of us who had the fucking BALLS to do more than blow hot air. three medals also are also framed next to it; one of which has george washington's face afixed. folks like me went to fucked up places so that folks like YOU could have your precious little internet, your fucking walk to the stores w/o toting an AK, your electricity, etc. YOU may not have much respect for the men and women who served this country; at least WE defended your right to have your opinion! so, yeah, i did some time in nifty countries eating foreign food and it don't mean nothing. 

i could care less about the personalization of threads; that's for the moderators. i'm not getting personal w/you that's why i am responding. my statements are a general indictment against the folks (and many know who they are) who constantly and consistently feel they 'have a need to know'. believe me, if there comes a time that i disagree w/you it will be worded in such a way as there is no mistaking it.

now, the concept that you put forth i am ADAMANTLY opposed to w/respect to railroad information. you say you're an admin on other sites so i would ask why you don't share your passwords w/all the folks on those sites. why do you even need the status as an admin anyway? i mean, after all, you're all into _glastnost_ right?! i mean wasn't it you who said that information should be available to all earlier? so, if you are going to 'control' information on the one hand and then rile against it on the other it strikes me as circular logic, hartage.

now i've only addressed RR info. let's take your logic and apply it to squats. should we now force everyone to post their exact location of their squats so that 'all' might share in them? that included law enforcement. hey, gotta be open here, 'eh? or how about the nice, quaint spots to relax and smoke some reefer w/o being hassled? yeah, we need to let EVERYONE know those spots. or how about how/where to get free copies and mailing from one of the 'giants' in the copy/mailing business [insert here UPS, FedEx-Kinkos, etc.). oh yeah, i can see how that would play out, but we need to let EVERYONE know because hartage's _glastnost_ policy is the humanistic approach.

get real. you proffered a line of reason which was faulty; ney, you attached to a line of reasoning, and it has been found wanting. 

the reality is this:


> Si tatlia jungere possis sit tibi sit tibi scire posse.


----------



## finn

hartage said:


> In your particular case with medical procedures. What would it serve if you refused to tell me information on a procedure on the silly notion that I will go out and recklessly attempt to perform it on someone else ? The social duty to protect me from myself stopped at 18.



My decision is based on real life experience, not principle. You have a nice theory, and that's fine, but it doesn't test up to messy reality- this might be where the real disconnect is. You are criticizing us for the decisions we have made from the life lessons we've learned because you have your personally untested ideas.

Some people really dislike the hospitals, and I don't blame them, but some treatments are simply meant for being used when there is no access to more advanced medical care. Done wrong, one of the procedures I know can kill you in less than a day, and will at least slow down your recovery by a month provided the person doesn't die.

You have your ideas and theories, but give them a try before you try debating us over its merits.


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## logan714

hartage,

You're pissing off the wrong people. I'll give you an example of info. If you were in Tucson and asked me where to camp I'd tell you a safe place to camp, but I sure as hell am not going to tell you where the camp is that we've been using since 1980. I've been camping with some of the people there since 1980, and the integrity of the camp is partially my responsibility and who the hell knows when I'll have to go camp there again. 

Now, what people are trying to say it, get a little something under your belt. The people you're pissing off here are the people that, if you were out there and say "okay, I'm out here and I'm in xyz town, anybody know shit about this?" And you could get exact directions to everything there. 

So, if you want to piss everybody off, if you end up out there you'll make it harder for yourself. If you just chill and glean the information you can and build upon that you can actually start putting together a database of information for yourself and then expand upon it when you're out there. 

I'll give you an example of my life. There's a home bum that sits by Wal-mart here. When I have money on me (but I use my credit cards a lot and don't carry money), and I'm in the right lane, and can stop I hand homeboy a buck every time I see him, because I've been out there. Buy you know what, I don't trip on it when I can't. You know why? Homeboy's an adult. He put himself there. He has to take what he can get running his trip. And that's it. And that's about the head space everyone's telling you here. We'll help you if we can, but we're not going to trip on it if we can't.

Logan


----------



## Beegod Santana

hartage said:


> Ahh.... from the debated subject to personal attacks on my integrity now eh ? Fantastic ! That didn't take you long at all did it ? Eh, not a big surprise.
> 
> Two months or so on here.... Then you mention giving out usual info.... What is this ? Are we whipping it out now and comparing penis length ? Boy you sure got your feathers ruffled. Points with zero basis in truth are shrugged off without a second thought. Points that hit a nerve though.... only does so if there is a truth in there to hit.
> 
> Alright, let me satisfy your penis length fetish. I have stated openly in chat, PM's and posts what my situation is. That I got in a car wreck. That my life was turned upside down and that the appeal of the freedom of traveling brought me here. I've said openly to many people here that I have not ridden rails, flown signs, dumpster dived or even hitch hiked. That I'm here to learn from everyone before I set off on my own next year after I heal from my injuries and settle legal issues.
> 
> *CONGRATULATIONS CAPTAIN OBVIOUS ! FOR CLARIFYING WHAT I'VE BEEN TELLING PEOPLE HERE THE WHOLE TIME I'VE BEEN HERE *
> 
> So where does this go now ? We turn this personal I hunt you down you hunt me down ? My interest was to stick up for freedom of information and not be judgmental towards others. I'm not sinking to your level. If it makes you happy and satisfies your penis length issues I'll bow and admit.... You have more experience than my zero experience in everything train related, dumpster related, etc. I don't steal, I'm clean, I don't drink, I don't smoke pot or smoke, I don't abuse any drugs. Oh yeah and I almost forgot, I hang out with the rainbow family (hippies) also. There, are you all happy now ? Want a lollipop too ?
> 
> Now I'll tell you what I am. I'm the guy that didn't care if you are black, white, yellow or purple. I don't give a shit if someone is rich or broke. I don't care if your a punk, redneck, or whatever group you identify with. I don't care if you know less than I do or more than I do, smarter or not. As long as you treat me well I will treat you well.
> 
> What do you know ? How to be an elitist ? Personal attacks when someone disagrees with you ? When a thread breaks down into personal attacks that's my cue to exit stage left.



Dude you started the personal attacks a long time ago, you just did it in that pc passive agressive manner "I'm not talking about you specifically, but...". "Usual" was a typo, I apologize, I meant to type "useful." All this penis size shit? That's also your own little creation. Lots of people on here have traveled for much longer than I have who don't seem to have a problem w/ me and have helped me out on occassion. There's also a lot of newbie kids on here that I've given advice to and helped out over the years. There's even kids who have admittedly not traveled one bit but who post cool articles and music on here that I'm totally cool with (they also don't go around asking for sensitive info they have no use for). You however come out here and start throwing labels on people for saying that some information shouldn't be public then claim to not care about labels. You write long rants directed at specific people then claim that you're not gonna sink to "my level" and call people out for what they are. Well I call a spade a spade and you sound like a self-absorbed whiner with a lot of self-pity who feels the world owes you something. You say you're compiling all the info you can over the next year to see if you're gonna like traveling / squatting. Well, first of all, a lot of the sensitive info you could get here would be worthless in a year. Secondly, you don't think there's anything dick about studying someone's lifestyle and then going out and dumpster diving, flying signs and blowing up spots just so you can see if you like it? That'd be like me painting my skin brown to see if I liked being mexican for a week.


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## katiehabits

i think that it's really important for seasoned travelers to teach the the "noobs" or whateverthefuck you want to call em about our lifestyle and to teach them the right way to do shit. not only should we teach these folks but we should teach them "safety" so to say. like to keep your mouth shut about things and to not be seen while dumpstering, train rideing, squatting, shoplifting, whatever.....
i had a friend who took me on the second train i ever rode tell me the three limb rule as he calls it, always keep three of your limbs on the train at all times so not to lose balance and fall off. that's something i tell kids who are new at rideing because i don't want to hear about how some dumb young kid lost a arm while hoping from one car to another. 
or tell folks where cameras are in stores or where the blind spots are. because i think to keep us all going we need to stay invisible in a sence so to teach these new folks how to not be seen keeps us all safe.
don't just refuse to disclose info to new folks cuz they don't know anything, teach them the things that keep you from getting caught.


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## Loaf

I think this whole argument between the involved parties really emphasized the purpose of this topic being started. Hartage you look like a PC elitist and the rest of you are no better right now.It is personal preference hartage if someone wants to share info let them, if they don't then fine they don't.It is at their discretion.Simple as that. None of them are saying they won't help someone out, they are simply saying that they won't wipe their ass for them. As, for the attack against hartage, I agree it was not necessary at all.


----------



## connerR

i have concluded this lifestyle to be like freemasonry. there are gatherings, secret texts, codes, brotherhood, secrecy, signs, etc. let's make it a full on secret society just for kicks.


----------



## logan714

You kids sound like the Baskin Robbins of Road Culture. 31 different flavors and everyone has got to be better than the other one. Most hillarious one I've run into so far is a PC Vegan that won't wear anything but cotton and thinks they are better then we are because they drink organic apple juice. 

Goddamn. This all just started out as a bunch of people that were on the road, that for the most part could put up with each other. Yeah, one of my friends told me there's only two types of music, country or western, but we could still listen to Conway Twitty or Hank Williams and it would be dealable. Now it just turned into a cluster fuck that I find hillarious.

Logan


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## Loaf

hell yeah in that one Logan! It about getting away from all this shit for me. That is why i ride, I like simple things. This arguing shit ISN'T simple.


----------



## hartage

IBRRHOBO said:


> as to the server being easier to gain info, i disagree. what's displayed in the threads is public (see Time's Article). getting log files are FAR more difficult and require a warrant (Widerstand will vouch for this as he has read the emails between me and the Department of Defense over their requests for such pertaining to my sites).



I'm not much for warrants I don't know when they are likely obtained or not. I'm talking about nuts and bolts of taking information from a website or from a group that is based on a website. You were alluding to people joining and asking around for information. Using a metaphor of a group in a building and sending a spy in to poke around. What I'm saying is why bother with that ? You can just compromise the server and have EVERYTHING. Access to all the data, public and private threads, PM's, chat, everything including the logs of where the data is coming from/going to. Why bother sending a person in the building when you can just take the whole building foundation and all with everything inside it. This can also be done without the occupants even knowing anything is happening to begin with. To the people inside and those coming to/from the building nothing has changed it's just life as usual. 

This is actually how wiretaps happen since all voice phone are just data streams now going through servers. They are tapped where the data is not encrypted at the servers passing all the traffic. It is the same with websites. It's most vulnerable point is at the host itself. The very server physically running the website.

If you knew your shit in intelligence and gathering info from computers. You would have known that sending in a person to ask around is actually the foolish thing to do. It would just run a high risk of tipping off to your intelligence gathering. You can get that same information in a much more complete and undetectable way by taking over the server.



IBRRHOBO said:


> in addressing my '...knowing my shit...' in intelligence, i was a glamorous paper pusher; an analyst. my dd-214 hangs on my wall and those who've been here can attest to it. btw the 214 is a discharge paper from military service and it's issued to those of us who had the fucking BALLS to do more than blow hot air. three medals also are also framed next to it; one of which has george washington's face afixed. folks like me went to fucked up places so that folks like YOU could have your precious little internet, your fucking walk to the stores w/o toting an AK, your electricity, etc. YOU may not have much respect for the men and women who served this country; at least WE defended your right to have your opinion! so, yeah, i did some time in nifty countries eating foreign food and it don't mean nothing.



I'm not questioning your entire career. Just your agreement to the allusion to someone actually getting on the website asking questions for the purpose of information gathering. 
Like using a Q-tip to mop a floor it's the wrong tool for the wrong job. Had you done any network security or gathered any protected data on computers it would have been obvious to you. You can't fly your "I've been in intelligence" flag then agree to such an obviously wrong allusion and not have that flag questioned. 



IBRRHOBO said:


> now, the concept that you put forth i am ADAMANTLY opposed to w/respect to railroad information. you say you're an admin on other sites so i would ask why you don't share your passwords w/all the folks on those sites. why do you even need the status as an admin anyway? i mean, after all, you're all into _glastnost_ right?! i mean wasn't it you who said that information should be available to all earlier? so, if you are going to 'control' information on the one hand and then rile against it on the other it strikes me as circular logic, hartage.
> 
> now i've only addressed RR info. let's take your logic and apply it to squats. should we now force everyone to post their exact location of their squats so that 'all' might share in them? that included law enforcement. hey, gotta be open here, 'eh? or how about the nice, quaint spots to relax and smoke some reefer w/o being hassled? yeah, we need to let EVERYONE know those spots. or how about how/where to get free copies and mailing from one of the 'giants' in the copy/mailing business [insert here UPS, FedEx-Kinkos, etc.). oh yeah, i can see how that would play out, but we need to let EVERYONE know because hartage's _glastnost_ policy is the humanistic approach.



Passwords ? logins ? Apples and oranges. I am talking about HOW TO INFORMATION that should be free NOT THE KEY TO YOUR FRONT DOOR. There are exceptions in freedom of speech and freedom of information act that address private information such as access control.

The purpose and start of this thread was to be MORE ACCOMMODATING TO NOOBS. Instead of withholding information for the sole purpose of denying them aid. THAT was what I was sticking up for and basic information should be free to help those with less/no experience. Now your talking about logins and passwords for network admins and locations of squats ? Wow, quite a leap. 


" Hartage's...... policy is the humanistic approach " Ya, that's right. Without your exaggerations and sarcasm about locations and passwords the humanistic approach is ultimately what I'm sticking up for. You FINALLY hit it right on the head. 

*WITH ALL THE ELITISM AND SELF-INTEREST GOING ON THE HUMANISTIC APPROACH IS TOTALLY LOST*

As I've said before, when "they" do it to us it's oppression, when we do it to our own it's all good ? Humanistic approach should be the same to us or from us.


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## hartage

finn said:


> My decision is based on real life experience, not principle. You have a nice theory, and that's fine, but it doesn't test up to messy reality- this might be where the real disconnect is. You are criticizing us for the decisions we have made from the life lessons we've learned because you have your personally untested ideas.
> 
> Some people really dislike the hospitals, and I don't blame them, but some treatments are simply meant for being used when there is no access to more advanced medical care. Done wrong, one of the procedures I know can kill you in less than a day, and will at least slow down your recovery by a month provided the person doesn't die.
> 
> You have your ideas and theories, but give them a try before you try debating us over its merits.



The ideology I'm debating here is the purposeful denial of aid to new people and being judgmental. Also that the justifications of doing so are exactly the same elitism and oppression used against us by mainstream society. IBRRHOBO actually described it in sarcasm of course..... "Hartage's..... humanistic approach" What is wrong with that ? We want it applied to us, why don't we apply it to others even if they are new ?


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## hartage

logan714 said:


> hartage,
> 
> You're pissing off the wrong people. I'll give you an example of info. If you were in Tucson and asked me where to camp I'd tell you a safe place to camp, but I sure as hell am not going to tell you where the camp is that we've been using since 1980. I've been camping with some of the people there since 1980, and the integrity of the camp is partially my responsibility and who the hell knows when I'll have to go camp there again.
> 
> Now, what people are trying to say it, get a little something under your belt. The people you're pissing off here are the people that, if you were out there and say "okay, I'm out here and I'm in xyz town, anybody know shit about this?" And you could get exact directions to everything there.
> 
> So, if you want to piss everybody off, if you end up out there you'll make it harder for yourself. If you just chill and glean the information you can and build upon that you can actually start putting together a database of information for yourself and then expand upon it when you're out there.
> 
> I'll give you an example of my life. There's a home bum that sits by Wal-mart here. When I have money on me (but I use my credit cards a lot and don't carry money), and I'm in the right lane, and can stop I hand homeboy a buck every time I see him, because I've been out there. Buy you know what, I don't trip on it when I can't. You know why? Homeboy's an adult. He put himself there. He has to take what he can get running his trip. And that's it. And that's about the head space everyone's telling you here. We'll help you if we can, but we're not going to trip on it if we can't.
> 
> Logan



I understand what your saying and appreciate the effort. But how can I not say anything when there is what amounts to ill-will for the evil sin of simply being new ? At one point everyone was new. Now as a community we hold it against others for being where we've all been ? (new)  IBRRHOBO accused me of having a humanistic approach. Yeah, he's right I do.


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## hartage

Beegod Santana said:


> Dude you started the personal attacks a long time ago, you just did it in that pc passive agressive manner "I'm not talking about you specifically, but...". "Usual" was a typo, I apologize, I meant to type "useful." All this penis size shit? That's also your own little creation. Lots of people on here have traveled for much longer than I have who don't seem to have a problem w/ me and have helped me out on occassion. There's also a lot of newbie kids on here that I've given advice to and helped out over the years. There's even kids who have admittedly not traveled one bit but who post cool articles and music on here that I'm totally cool with (they also don't go around asking for sensitive info they have no use for). You however come out here and start throwing labels on people for saying that some information shouldn't be public then claim to not care about labels. You write long rants directed at specific people then claim that you're not gonna sink to "my level" and call people out for what they are. Well I call a spade a spade and you sound like a self-absorbed whiner with a lot of self-pity who feels the world owes you something. You say you're compiling all the info you can over the next year to see if you're gonna like traveling / squatting. Well, first of all, a lot of the sensitive info you could get here would be worthless in a year. Secondly, you don't think there's anything dick about studying someone's lifestyle and then going out and dumpster diving, flying signs and blowing up spots just so you can see if you like it? That'd be like me painting my skin brown to see if I liked being mexican for a week.



Passive aggressive manner ? I told you the straight truth. I was refering (but failed to point out) to widerstand's post that was chock full of elitism and others suggesting the same things. (to make it more difficult for new people) You said nothing elitist. I gave you nothing but the straight truth. I already said that I should have been more clear that I was not referring to what you said. What more do you want ?

Penis size ..... it is you telling me "you've only been here two months" then you asking me to contribute my own knowledge then maybe you'll grace me with your own. This is a challenge to compare my level of experience to yours.... a penis length match. Get it now ?

" Well I call a spade a spade and you sound like a self-absorbed whiner with a lot of self-pity who feels the world owes you something. You say you're compiling all the info you can over the next year to see if you're gonna like traveling / squatting. Well, first of all, a lot of the sensitive info you could get here would be worthless in a year. Secondly, you don't think there's anything dick about studying someone's lifestyle and then going out and dumpster diving, flying signs and blowing up spots just so you can see if you like it? That'd be like me painting my skin brown to see if I liked being mexican for a week. "

Oh so now I have to justify my reasons of wanting to travel to you ? First though like you, I'll call a spade a spade. Fine, asshole, I'll explain it to you. Since you didn't get it the first time I've explained it. I was in a car wreck, a drunk driver collided with the car I was a passenger in head on. My body is messed up and my head is messed up. I have been diagnosed with ptsd, postconcussive syndrome, and depression along with a host of physical body problems. My non-functionality for nearly a year now has devastated my finances and personal life. The distraction of traveling just might be the only form of therapy available to me as I'm on the brink of loosing my health insurance. Never mind that not having commitments and having all that freedom is pretty appealing to someone that feels that life is hitting them from all sides. So, asshole, like many people traveling, it might not be a choice for me it just might be the only option. 

I MIGHT have settlement money coming to me. But that is not a guarantee and I have to prepare for worst case scenario. Even if I do get it, I'll need every single penny of that to repair/restart my completely fucked life. So even in traveling I have to go as low cost as possible. If I don't get any settlement money and my head does not fix itself and I stay nonfunctional. I just might have to fly signs and dumpsterdive. 

So are you happy asshole ? Now you and the entire fucking world can see my reasons for preparing to be a traveler. I bet it sounds similar to the reasons of others that took up traveling.


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## IBRRHOBO

hartage: big difference between rates such as IT/CTI which is computers in the navy and my rate which was IS. not a flag i fly, statement of fact. 

all said, you are yet another classic example of why i don't assist greenhorns. there's a reason why even on THIS forum there are private groups such as Waystations and Speak Easy. i suppose you would have those doors thrown wide open as well?

now, others may be afraid to admit it (fear of being banned, etc.) but i am not. your desire to gain something for nothing is the main reason why most riders won't take the time of day to help the younger bunch out here today. 

i like the freemasonry comparison; that is what the latin phrase refers to. and hoboing is just that! anyone can make the little roseville to portland run. and there are VERY few threads anywhere on here other than from shoestring, myself, severegout, rise and a couple others which document cross country travel. the reason being is that a fucking idiot won't make it. inner knowledge is key. and in such a small community as rail riding is i will make it my lifelong mission to make sure you never enter it. 

as to the rest of the shit: punk rock community, dumpster diving, hitchiking...i could give a rats ass. i don't call shots in any of them. rail riding i do. and it is not quite the 'accepting' world as other places. generally the environment itself weeds out the idiots east of reno. main reason for that is there aren't soup kitchens and squats every 20 feet. and being very frank here if my options are to have a 'humanistic', touchy-feely person in the boxcar w/me when i get off in east st louis or a fucking asshole who would cut a throat w/no more thought than passing salt at the dinner table, i'd opt for the latter. and these are the kind of people who really DO ride east of reno. see, if i'm riding w/the idiot then i 'cosign' the idiot. that means if the idiot fucks up i am just as dead as s/he is.

i have no grudge against you and want that VERY clear. i don't agree w/you wanting RR info past around like the CCG is today. i haven't commented on any other info as i don't give a fuck. i don't seek to change your opinions. they are typical of what i have come to expect amongst new riders.


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## hartage

Widerstand said:


> It seems that this thread has degenerated down from its originally intended post. If y'all want to continue to debate the 'do's' and 'do not's' of information, and weather or not it should be made public...etc. Could you please start a new thread for it.



Everything that needs to be said has been said. If you feel the need to keep it here or move the posts to another thread I'm indifferent. I might respond to normal posts but all the heated posts from me ends. I won't respond to heated posts either it has become quite counter productive for me or anybody else.


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## IBRRHOBO

:banned::deadhorse:


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## logan714

hartage said:


> I understand what your saying and appreciate the effort. But how can I not say anything when there is what amounts to ill-will for the evil sin of simply being new ? At one point everyone was new. Now as a community we hold it against others for being where we've all been ? (new) IBRRHOBO accused me of having a humanistic approach. Yeah, he's right I do.




Okay,
I'll try it one more time. Look in my crew of people that I've been haing out with all these years, I'm probably the most mellow. I'm also one to the field medics so maybe that has something to do with it. 

WE've seen a shit load of people come and go. Up, down, all around, everywhere. But the actual percentage of people that actually make it and stick around are less than 2 percent. 

Also, here's another fun one. 500,000 tons of steal really don't give a fuck about you. ONe fuck up can make it hard on everyone. One idiot not knowing how to cross a string, what to listen for, and where to stand while doing it can get themselves killed in a couple of seconds if they're not paying attention. And what does blood on the track do? It attracts fucking attention. Most of the people I know have more than sufficient amounts of attention paid to them already. As a matter of a fact, sometime the system likes to pay very much special attention to us. EVerybody I know prefers to avoid their special attention free ride in a car, free meals and free bed. Yes, I'd rather walk 50 miles in a snow storm then ride a mile in a cop car.

Thats it

Logan


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## Beegod Santana

hartage said:


> I'll call a spade a spade. Fine, asshole, I'll explain it to you. Since you didn't get it the first time I've explained it. I was in a car wreck, a drunk driver collided with the car I was a passenger in head on. My body is messed up and my head is messed up. I have been diagnosed with ptsd, postconcussive syndrome, and depression along with a host of physical body problems. My non-functionality for nearly a year now has devastated my finances and personal life. The distraction of traveling just might be the only form of therapy available to me as I'm on the brink of loosing my health insurance. Never mind that not having commitments and having all that freedom is pretty appealing to someone that feels that life is hitting them from all sides. So, asshole, like many people traveling, it might not be a choice for me it just might be the only option.



You're right, I am an asshole, well a masshole actually (413!). I'm also recovering from a nasty, permanately disfiguring accident. My insurance ain't covering shit, my mother was just diagnosed with cancer and I have no job, prospects, place of my own and I can't really travel right now because it's hard enough just to read a screen let alone read a tape measure. So don't look to me for sympathy, we all have enough of our own problems. 

I also like the freemasons comparison. Only we're way cooler.


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## Ravie

hartage said:


> I understand what your saying and appreciate the effort. But how can I not say anything when there is what amounts to ill-will for the evil sin of simply being new ? At one point everyone was new. Now as a community we hold it against others for being where we've all been ? (new) IBRRHOBO accused me of having a humanistic approach. Yeah, he's right I do.



alright. first of all, I think we're all getting tired of this. so here's the skivvy. Yes, we have all been new on here at one point or another. We all looked for knowledge to gain. The difference? YOUR NOT SUPPOSED TO DEMAND KNOWLEDGE. Knowledge is something that is owned by whoever knows it and it is SHARED. 

If I'm understanding the main point here, tell me if I'm wrong, is that you wish for the members that have been on here longer to be more open and not be such assholes yes? Well, is it not our freedom to act/teach how we want? sounds a little conflicting to me since you spoke for freedom. I'm not trying to make this an annoyance. 

please, everyone needs to remember this is a conversation and not an argument.

You thirst for knowledge yes Hartage? that's great! it's allways welcome here. Where we take a step back and get our panties in a bunch is when someone we dont know and has not spent nearly as much time on here as we have starts off arguing and complaining. And know what? feel lucky people on here are as nice as they are. I've been on forums where if you said some of the things you said, or even way more mild, you would just get told to fuck off in 40+ different ways and banned because the moderator got tired of it. Patience is key here. If you want to know something without people acting "elitist" you need to realise that we are more than happier to hep out, but you need to wait unti your kown a little better and of course, ask politely  and remember, you came here looking for us to teach you, as do hundreds of people. we owe nothing, we are basically on here to help others and learn new things ourselves.


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## Ravie

IBRRHOBO said:


> :banned::deadhorse:



are you a mod? did you just ban him?


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## Ravie

oh. not sure these days, sorry.


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## IBRRHOBO

i'd just put the banned tag because wider had said to get back on point and the horse and it was beating a dead horse.

mod? oh, hell no! can you imagine me as a mod? loose cannon w/a fire at will card? bah ha ha!

like the new avatar!


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## Ravie

haha yeah... and thank you  I think it works well with me. plus it's halloween spirit haha


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## theflatoftheland




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## Matt Derrick

Wow, this was a kick ass thread, then hartage had to get all grade school on everyone. No more. Any further responses in a negative/flaming/slanderous manner will be met with a permanent ban, and I might just delete those posts altogether from this otherwise awesome thread. I'm tired of the bullshit (mostly on hartages part).

A note to the curious: regarding system security, hartage clearly has no idea what he's talking about. None whatsoever. I've come to this decision based not only on his posts, but after talking to him in person on the subject. I would simply LOVE to watch him try. The only reason I mention this is because I get irritated when people spew a bunch of shit they know nothing about.

In other news, before all this bs started, I think there is a TON of positive shit coming out of this thread, and I plan look back on it as a reference when shaping StP's future... Thanks for starting it mkirby!

Now, my two cents: some knowledge is free, other knowledge is earned. All noobs deserve at least a point in the right direction, from there, it's up to them to continue the journey. Aka: search before posting! Hehehe


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## mkirby

katiehabits said:


> i think that it's really important for seasoned travelers to teach the the "noobs" or whateverthefuck you want to call em about our lifestyle and to teach them the right way to do shit. not only should we teach these folks but we should teach them "safety" so to say. like to keep your mouth shut about things and to not be seen while dumpstering, train rideing, squatting, shoplifting, whatever.....
> i had a friend who took me on the second train i ever rode tell me the three limb rule as he calls it, always keep three of your limbs on the train at all times so not to lose balance and fall off. that's something i tell kids who are new at rideing because i don't want to hear about how some dumb young kid lost a arm while hoping from one car to another.
> or tell folks where cameras are in stores or where the blind spots are. because i think to keep us all going we need to stay invisible in a sence so to teach these new folks how to not be seen keeps us all safe.
> don't just refuse to disclose info to new folks cuz they don't know anything, teach them the things that keep you from getting caught.





Exactly. 

Calm the fuck down hartage.


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## Ravie

lol okay guys, leave the guy alone. he's been burned bad enough and he had the respect to stop okay? now, mkirby...what exactly do you wish to learn or have us help others new to stp learn? give us some pointers or direction?


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## mkirby

I wasn't talking specifically about stp, but the traveler community in general.

In a nutshell, everyone who didn't grow up on a GDF bus was new to this once, and we shouldn't be shy about showing newbies the ropes (how to find food, shelter, spanging techniques, trainhopping safety etc.) Let's increase our numbers, folks.

However it's totally reasonable to not want to show someone YOUR squat or anything of that nature, where giving someone information about it could make your life a drag.

Obviously it's not required that you teach anyone anything. Everyone is free to do whatever they want. Maybe I'm just a goddamn hippie, but I think it's beneficial to everybody when we help each other out.

I'm not saying everyone should become a babysitter, but advice to someone who's having a hard time now and then is really nice. I'm sure everyone remembers the people that helped them out when they first started.


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## Ravie

Know how I learned? I watched and listened. I almost never asked questions because the people I learned from would have scoffed at me. I never let anyone know I had no idea what I was doing. I just followed along, observed, learned from experience, and payed close attention to my common sense. Eventually, I learned all I needed to without dealing with people wragging on me for asking stupid questions or not wanting to hang out with me just because i was new. Basically what I'm saying is all questions will be answered, you dont have to rush. And with enough respect you can go very far.


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## IBRRHOBO

my learning is/has been (as i am still learning) twofold (and is primarily dealing w/trains): first thing i did was _decide_ that i wanted to ride. then i sat down and determined what i could do to learn about it. got some maps, researched what i could on the net (wasn't really that wide open back then) and took a hop. i stumbled across some hobos in KC and camped there for a bit. it is amazing how much i learned by clinging to every word they spoke (not saying it's that way today, though). i then started to incorporate what worked w/my mission and after running into some of the same faces over the first year a kinship began. it was then that they (yukon jack and mountain mike) decided to 'put me under the wing' for a season.

i am guessing, but i figure it might be the same for say squatting or perhaps in the anarchist community. just because i ride doesn't necessarily mean that if i roll up say in NOLA folks are gonna pass out the 'down low' on squatting. first, it's a different culture; in this i mean that in a [insert here boxcar while moving, hobo jungle, etc.] i can raise T total hell, piss and shit out the door, etc. i would guess that in a squat this wouldn't be tolerated. first, the raising hell would attract attention, building a fire in a structure (uncontained) wouldn't be prudent, entry/access is timed, etc. see, jungles come and go, but a GOOD squat may be one person's ONLY hope of maintaining ties say to a community, working a job, or whatever. so, if i didn't try to research this in advance (and some of it is common sense) chances are i'd get my ass kicked and worse do irreparable damage to someone (yes, i've had my ass kicked and the future looks pretty bright that it will happen again before i die bah ha ha  ).

also, when i show that i have done at least some legwork in researching on my own it goes to credibility. cred is a BIG part of any community. 

taking the anarchist community for an example if i am truly interested in becoming involved in it i would probably pick up some primers on it and _read_ about what it is about. i wouldn't come in spouting a bunch of punk rock slogans or praising recent republican decisions in congress.

i would also add that i am guilty of getting caught up in the fight here and want to apologize to all involved. if i don't do that then how can i sit on my pedestal and accuse others of that which i have done? sometimes, in my old ways, i tend to not see the bigger picture and cling, instead, to the obstinate roll of being the dog you can't teach old tricks to. this was and IS a good thread and for at least my part i devolved part of it into an unnecessary brawl.


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## Panoramicperspective

Alright , so first off Pigpen was awesome , and i am very grateful for the people who started recording Music.
Interesting debate throughout and within. At one point i even felt like unregistering and just walking out the door. (literally the door to outside) 
To anyone who has stuck through reading this ; Congratulations this is the last thread for the momment of now.

It's really something else man , do yew think that people will ever start giving each other the extra food they produce for free?
or sharing land with a family or three etc...... to grow food for say ....the surrounding area
build our own damn homes

but we already have so much developed. 
All the people who have ever helped, helped o so well hopefully for everyone 
Whether or not yew have thrown yourself out into the dirt or been led with a hand 

./....and i mean man who really comes here with the notion of being truley spoon fed?
Aren't we here for independence? self reliance and togetherness with the immediate people around yew?


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## mkirby

Wow...haven't checked on this thread in a while. Glad it sparked such an interesting debate.


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