# Inventing the New Normal on your own terms



## 36058

*The New Normal: rampant underemployment from Athens EU to Anytown US*

To introduce the topic I want to begin with some info about the shrinking work force in the US:



> *Americans Not In The Labor Force Soar By 640,000 To Record 93.6 Million; Participation Rate Drops To 1977 Levels*



http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-...ecord-936-million-participation-rate-drops-19

That headline makes a powerful statement because 1977 was the period when women began to re enter the US workforce en masse. Today's rate of workforce participation is as low as it was when households had a single breadwinner.

Another headline from the same site on the same day said that part time jobs had increased by 160K while full time jobs had decreased by 350K. Which mirrors a trend which has been going on for quite a while wherein underemployment rates are steadily rising.

Lots of people credit the declining US employment environment as the product of offshoring jobs to Asia and other developing nations. And while this is surely true the biggest loss of jobs is actually occurring because of automation and very soon Artificial Intelligence. In fact Artificial intelligence is predicted to replace a large % of service positions within 10 years. The revolution in the workforce that AI is predicted to usher in is expected to be so profound that it will change society as a whole, our lifestyles and our economies.

Here is a really informative 16 minute tutorial on the potential for AI revolution within the next decade:

https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=Artificial+intelligence,+horrifying,+TED+talk&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001

The result is expected to mean that virtually none of us will live traditional lives, work traditional jobs or be able to provide for ourselves via traditional means.

*Which means that one way or another we need to invent a completely new social paradigm. *

And I believe that the folks who squat are pioneers in that evolution and may become the inventors of the new normal. Although I think that that evolution is still in it's early stages.

I would like to discuss what that means and hear your ideas about inventing the new normal on your own terms.


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## Andrea Van Scoyoc

Great article.

I think many people are finally learning that materialism does not always equal happiness.

I've never been happier, since semi-retiring and living the Freegan life.

Thanks for sharing.


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## 36058

Andrea Van Scoyoc said:


> Great article.
> 
> I think many people are finally learning that materialism does not always equal happiness.
> 
> I've never been happier, since semi-retiring and living the Freegan life.
> 
> Thanks for sharing.


Nope, materialism doesn't equal happiness. Materialism is insatiable appetite for consumption, which is anything but happy. 

So what kind of lives would we want to live if we picked another purpose in life other than to continually acquire new stuff?

It is the biggest question facing us since the dawn of the industrial revolution and the end of our subsistence lifestyles.


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## Andrea Van Scoyoc

I can only speak for me, but I'd start a commune, based on Voluntary Poverty, freeganism and recycling.

I know the idea is nothing new, but many I've seen have some sort of theme, like spiritualism, etc.

The theme of mine would be nothing more than, don't be an asshole, pull your own weight and you're more than welcome to join us.


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## 36058

Andrea Van Scoyoc said:


> I can only speak for me, but I'd start a commune, based on Voluntary Poverty, freeganism and recycling.
> 
> I know the idea is nothing new, but many I've seen have some sort of theme, like spiritualism, etc.
> 
> The theme of mine would be nothing more than, don't be an asshole, pull your own weight and you're more than welcome to join us.




I think the commune idea will make a comeback since many people who will soon be abandoning materialism will want communities in which to raise kids, plant gardens etc. 

Where would you want to live?


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## Sip

Hmmm. I'd like to comment on this. First of all, this is all pure speculation, and it can turn out in a multitude of ways. For example, the venus project, https://www.thevenusproject.com/en/, holds that when technology gets to the point that you describe, where machines can carry out much of the functions of society that humans contribute to now through labor among other things, individual humans will realize there role in society is much reduced, will come to the conclusion that their economy and government is outdated and will simply stop being involved and form a machine powered utopia. And while this is certainly possible ( this is also displayed in a lot of sci-fi novels, like Robin cooks "Abduction"), is just as likely that everyone will feel replaced by computers, get pissed burn shit down, and cause a police state to form where-in the few remaining people that are needed for labor are valued, while the rest of us are packed in ghettos and treated as cattle.

As someone who reads loads of science fiction, I'm often really interested in what life will be like after the technological singularity and the age of technology freeing us from everything that holds us down now, which by the way is not guaranteed. They said computers would lighten our workload and all we've done is find new ways to work. It's entirely possible that even with the advent of true AI we will just find new industries to work in, involving that AI. While we wouldn't be needed for that (AI could manage itself) I think social pressure would call for it. People on the whole are terrified of AI running itsself. So while it is possible that the tools we use for the way we live our lives could change, it's entirely possible ( I think) that the way we live our lives might not change that much. what I'm saying here is that as the work we have now becomes out dated and we need less people for it, we could come up with new work that we would keep the AI out of just to give people something to do and further power economic growth. Remember, in capitalism you require unlimited Infinite growth for it to function, so doing something like this would not only provide labor for people, but new areas for the economy to expand into. And then what you get is an increasingly artifical economy that requires strict rules to maintain and thus limits freedoms. 

Moving on, holding that your line of thinking (If I'm following it correctly) comes to pass, and society is radically changed and huge portions of the work force are no longer needed and that causes a shattering of what is going on, people realize that they don't need money to be happy because they can't really get jobs, I think that it will usher in an age of constant technological and social advancement. The focus will be on personal development, artistic creation, and pursing ones passions. Ideally, I'd like to see people tear down capitalism and do this in in a federation of loosely connected city states. People will go where they want because they want to go there, they will do what they want to do because they want to do it. Without the need for economic scarcity and competition, most of our social taboos will break down and we will simply be with who we want, say what we want, and be in any sort of relationship paradigm.

It's not a leap or a real flashing electric discovery of knowledge to see that we travelers are the vangaurd of this new way of life.... of some sort. We've already realized what the techys will cause everyone else to see: That materialism is bullshit. I think this insight will bring a utopia of sharing and sharing alike, as seen in communes and such. If, like I said, we don't end up in a police state first. If you've ever read any distopian sci-fi novel, you can see that the elimination of the labor force as a necessity can easily produce this sort of thing too. This isn't a new idea. But it is an interesting one.


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## Andrea Van Scoyoc

36058 said:


> I think the commune idea will make a comeback since many people who will soon be abandoning materialism will want communities in which to raise kids, plant gardens etc.
> 
> Where would you want to live?




Well...I'm a native Floridian, so I'm intimately acquainted with what a shitty state this is for anything the redneck and good ole boys would deem "weird or Hippie." 

In fact, the remnants of an old Hippie commune are still in one area of town.

The "hippies" were run out and the land has been left - after the fire dept used the leftover houses for arson practice - overgrown and useless.

It's sickening.

Anyway, my home state is out.

I'm thinking WV, TN or maybe Montana.

However, I'll probably end up in Missouri. I get my half of my farmland once my mother dies.

Depending on how much I can save up, I'll see what I can do.


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## Kal

Andrea Van Scoyoc said:


> Well...I'm a native Floridian, so I'm intimately acquainted with what a shitty state this is for anything the redneck and good ole boys would deem "weird or Hippie."
> 
> In fact, the remnants of an old Hippie commune are still in one area of town.
> 
> The "hippies" were run out and the land has been left - after the fire dept used the leftover houses for arson practice - overgrown and useless.
> 
> It's sickening.
> 
> Anyway, my home state is out.
> 
> I'm thinking WV, TN or maybe Montana.
> 
> However, I'll probably end up in Missouri. I get my half of my farmland once my mother dies.
> 
> Depending on how much I can save up, I'll see what I can do.


Miissouri, WV, TN are not a bad states but Montana is my favorite.


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## Andrea Van Scoyoc

@Kal ...

My dad's family has oil land in Montana, tied up somehow with the government.

My grandfather never saw any of the money, my dad didn't, my brother and I, I doubt ever wiil...and the same goes for his kids.

I never got the whole story...but I have a feeling my family won't ever have access to it. Everyone is tight lipped and I don't have anything to do with my dad's family, so it's not like I could just ask what the deal is.

Good thing I'm not materialistic. Otherwise, I'd waste money on attorneys, like has already been done.

If anything, I'd just go protest the land being pumped.

Not wanting to do anything but get the rigs torn down and the ground turned into a hippie commune certainly wouldn't win me any fans, not in _my_ family.


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## 36058

Sip, no, it isn't a new idea.

But this time it is really happening. You sound like somebody who would really enjoy watching the TED vid to get a primer of what is happening RIGHT NOW with civilian AI.

And yeah there is no way to predict what will happen, but again what IS happening is that the western world is not interested in supporting the consumer economy or maintaining job creation or even the "growth" required for our ponzi-like economy to stay afloat. But they have an answer for that: austerity and a dismantling of the social safety net coupled with a broadening of the survival net (EBT economy).

I am basing my forecasts on a direct extension of what IS happening right now today and what it will become just 10 more years down this road if nothing revolutionary happens.

LOng term I think that the elite somewhat correctly believe that the masses can not be trusted with money resources or technology and so they have made a kind of decision or accepted the fact that the middle class will be defunded and that whether you work or not you will get enough to survive, but not enough to drive your own personal auto and certainly not a single occupant SUV traveling 40plus miles to and from work each day.

What will a post materialism world really look like? Will people create a black market economy to support themselves?

FWIW I think the police state will become all powerful, they have the best AI. But I also think they will only ever engage outliers, people who disturb the flow of formal society at large. They couldn't care less what we do as long as we don't threaten them or their order.

If people in general move on and invent new lifestyles and new purposes for themselves what kind of a world would you want to invent for yourself?



Sip said:


> Hmmm. I'd like to comment on this. First of all, this is all pure speculation, and it can turn out in a multitude of ways. For example, the venus project, https://www.thevenusproject.com/en/, holds that when technology gets to the point that you describe, where machines can carry out much of the functions of society that humans contribute to now through labor among other things, individual humans will realize there role in society is much reduced, will come to the conclusion that their economy and government is outdated and will simply stop being involved and form a machine powered utopia. And while this is certainly possible ( this is also displayed in a lot of sci-fi novels, like Robin cooks "Abduction"), is just as likely that everyone will feel replaced by computers, get pissed burn shit down, and cause a police state to form where-in the few remaining people that are needed for labor are valued, while the rest of us are packed in ghettos and treated as cattle.
> 
> As someone who reads loads of science fiction, I'm often really interested in what life will be like after the technological singularity and the age of technology freeing us from everything that holds us down now, which by the way is not guaranteed. They said computers would lighten our workload and all we've done is find new ways to work. It's entirely possible that even with the advent of true AI we will just find new industries to work in, involving that AI. While we wouldn't be needed for that (AI could manage itself) I think social pressure would call for it. People on the whole are terrified of AI running itsself. So while it is possible that the tools we use for the way we live our lives could change, it's entirely possible ( I think) that the way we live our lives might not change that much. what I'm saying here is that as the work we have now becomes out dated and we need less people for it, we could come up with new work that we would keep the AI out of just to give people something to do and further power economic growth. Remember, in capitalism you require unlimited Infinite growth for it to function, so doing something like this would not only provide labor for people, but new areas for the economy to expand into. And then what you get is an increasingly artifical economy that requires strict rules to maintain and thus limits freedoms.
> 
> Moving on, holding that your line of thinking (If I'm following it correctly) comes to pass, and society is radically changed and huge portions of the work force are no longer needed and that causes a shattering of what is going on, people realize that they don't need money to be happy because they can't really get jobs, I think that it will usher in an age of constant technological and social advancement. The focus will be on personal development, artistic creation, and pursing ones passions. Ideally, I'd like to see people tear down capitalism and do this in in a federation of loosely connected city states. People will go where they want because they want to go there, they will do what they want to do because they want to do it. Without the need for economic scarcity and competition, most of our social taboos will break down and we will simply be with who we want, say what we want, and be in any sort of relationship paradigm.
> 
> It's not a leap or a real flashing electric discovery of knowledge to see that we travelers are the vangaurd of this new way of life.... of some sort. We've already realized what the techys will cause everyone else to see: That materialism is bullshit. I think this insight will bring a utopia of sharing and sharing alike, as seen in communes and such. If, like I said, we don't end up in a police state first. If you've ever read any distopian sci-fi novel, you can see that the elimination of the labor force as a necessity can easily produce this sort of thing too. This isn't a new idea. But it is an interesting one.


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## 36058

Kal said:


> Miissouri, WV, TN are not a bad states but Montana is my favorite.


Montana and AK both rock. 

But farmland in Missouri sounds useful.


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## Andrea Van Scoyoc

36058 said:


> But farmland in Missouri sounds useful.



That's the plan.


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## East

This is just my educated guess: I suspect minimum monthly income increasingly becomes a thing, at least as an intermediary. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaranteed_minimum_income

Financial poverty will increase over time, as it has slowly been, as more people are unable to meet their basic needs society will become increasingly unstable. The financial elite will (hopefully) understand that this may lead to their destruction. As a result, they will institute guaranteed minimum incomes for everyone. Of course there's a ton of possibilities, and admittedly this is an optimistic outcome.


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## 36058

Andrea Van Scoyoc said:


> That's the plan.



Farming is a very sound plan, esp in a place where you can grow so many food crops other than grains. And it is a pretty healthy life in most ways. That's the way we lived for 1000s of years, it is a shame that we can't all do it anymore.


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## 36058

East said:


> This is just my educated guess: I suspect minimum monthly income increasingly becomes a thing, at least as an intermediary.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guaranteed_minimum_income
> 
> Financial poverty will increase over time, as it has slowly been, as more people are unable to meet their basic needs society will become increasingly unstable. *The financial elite will (hopefully) understand that this may lead to their destruction. As a result, they will institute guaranteed minimum incomes for everyone.* Of course there's a ton of possibilities, and admittedly this is an optimistic outcome.



They already are doing this in the EU and the US. But the minimums have been too generous/expensive so they are scaling back.

Of Course it doesn't hurt to have a completely desperately poor class to keep everybody reminded of what can happen to you if you screw up.


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## Durp

Ai is scary shit. Learn how to make relaods of 12ga slugs to punch thru when you need to.


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## iflewoverthecuckoosnest

The gap between the elite and the bottom scrubbing minimum wagers is growing bigger and bigger, which is really nothing new. We are thriving on a system with two increasing extremes; the rich getting richer while the poor get poorer. All the while we chomp up natural resources in industrial sized mouth fulls.

People have to struggle through 40 + hours of labor a week to meet their basic needs in the traditional system, and that's in my rural town where property is (relatively) cheap.

Not only that, but consumerist nations such as the US have some of the worst mental health statistics in the world. No, materialism most certainly is _not _making us happy. It is leaving us isolated, and, in fact, it produces dissatisfaction more than almost anything else. It shows us a dream world of perfection that we can never attain, forever leaving us reeling for a better body, a prettier face, sweeter drinks, bigger burgers, and better sex. The commercial world seeks to own experiences and concepts, shilling them out to us for a price.

It's bad for us and increasingly bad for the planet. In fact, it is unsustainable. California is drying up at a frighteningly rapid rate. Rainforests are disappearing. We are at the brink of the next mass extinction, and this one is on us, not the natural swings of the planet. We are the first species on earth to have this immense level of control over the environment, and we seem to be failing at cultivating a fruitful relationship with it quite abysmally. In fact, we seem to be failing at cultivating a fruitful relationship with ourselves and one another quite abysmally. 

Adapt or die, that's been a harsh reality since the beginning of time. We must choose sustainability and community over comfort and ease. Some of us are adapting to this reality by reusing waste, finding sustainable alternatives, and working as much outside of the cultural windigo as we can. Who knows what normal will be in the future. But, if the "normal" of now remains the "normal" of mankind's future, we won't be here for very long.

As an aside, this conversation reminded me of this video quite a lot:


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## iflewoverthecuckoosnest

Personally, I'd love live on a functional commune someday. Or perhaps a little homestead where we all contribute and all benefit. It would be really cool to make connections with other communes/homesteads and share our goods.


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## 36058

iflewoverthecuckoosnest said:


> Personally, I'd love live on a functional commune someday. Or perhaps a little homestead where we all contribute and all benefit. It would be really cool to make connections with other communes/homesteads and share our goods.



you sound like somebody I could share a commune with. 

What kind of community do you dream of? Where would it be located, what would it be about?


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## iflewoverthecuckoosnest

At the moment, I'm just getting my shit in order with my short bus to travel for a while, so I'm nowhere near commune stage, haha. Still getting myself in the traveling game, and I've got loads that I want to do with that.
But if I were to have a commune, I think that Oregon might be a cool place. Loads and loads of rainfall for crops, and it is beautiful. I think that my commune would be about building a community consisting of intellectuals, dreamers, anarchists, and humanists. We'd share ideas, information, books, aspirations, art etc. Of course, we'd also grow food. We could make clothes and get many of our living supplies from dumpsters and second hand stores. We could also help out those in need, so long as they did not take advantage of us.
I mean, it's nothing but a pipe dream at the moment. Someday, though


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## 36058

iflewoverthecuckoosnest said:


> At the moment, I'm just getting my shit in order with my short bus to travel for a while, so I'm nowhere near commune stage, haha. Still getting myself in the traveling game, and I've got loads that I want to do with that.
> But if I were to have a commune, I think that Oregon might be a cool place. Loads and loads of rainfall for crops, and it is beautiful. I think that my commune would be about building a community consisting of intellectuals, dreamers, anarchists, and humanists. We'd share ideas, information, books, aspirations, art etc. Of course, we'd also grow food. We could make clothes and get many of our living supplies from dumpsters and second hand stores. We could also help out those in need, so long as they did not take advantage of us.
> I mean, it's nothing but a pipe dream at the moment. Someday, though




I once heard somebody opine that if you look out over a city, that every home every building everything you can see began as somebody's dream. Keep that dream alive, and Oregon is magnificent. 

I favor the south pacific, but what the hell!


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## iflewoverthecuckoosnest

36058 said:


> I once heard somebody opine that if you look out over a city, that every home every building everything you can see began as somebody's dream. Keep that dream alive, and Oregon is magnificent.
> 
> I favor the south pacific, but what the hell!



I like that spirit! 
Oregon isn't set in stone. Nothing's set in stone about it yet, haha. It will be quite some time before I get to it, I think.


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## 36058

iflewoverthecuckoosnest said:


> I like that spirit!
> Oregon isn't set in stone. Nothing's set in stone about it yet, haha. It will be quite some time before I get to it, I think.




Set in stone reminds me of a funeral for some reason. Might be that that's what the term refers to.

Meh? I have a limited number of years left to fulfill my fantasies and still enjoy them. If I don't do it soon I never will. 

Today is the only day. Remember that!


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## Odin

iflewoverthecuckoosnest said:


> People have to struggle through 40 + hours of labor a week to meet their basic needs in the traditional system, and that's in my rural town where property is (relatively) cheap.



Not just the rural towns... if I may say.... no bias just demonstration... metropolitan or suburban or rural/Independence... the pressures are the same in a lot of ways. The financial instruments that moderate and degrade personal autonomy are applied differently but have the same effect on all those social structures. 

I'm an out-lier suburban/city person. I don't come from a privileged family but a ... well to my chagrin and sadness a family that is caught in the economic paradigm and does not understand that cooperative efforts and tolerance and understanding are substantial qualities in success of a family/community unit. 



iflewoverthecuckoosnest said:


> Who knows what normal will be in the future. But, if the "normal" of now remains the "normal" of mankind's future, we won't be here for very long.





iflewoverthecuckoosnest said:


> Adapt or die, that's been a harsh reality since the beginning of time.



I don't mean to be a pessimistic throwing this out... but that text made me think of the Kurt Vonnegut novel. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galápagos_(novel)

_Galápagos_

_I've also read "Cat's Cradle" should read "Slaugherhouse... five/ "_


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## Odin

36058 said:


> Set in stone reminds me of a funeral for some reason.



Every man faces the yawning grave... and all the same time erodes your stone.
But for a while... it lasts.


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## iflewoverthecuckoosnest

Odin said:


> Not just the rural towns... if I may say.... no bias just demonstration... metropolitan or suburban or rural/Independence... the pressures are the same in a lot of ways. The financial instruments that moderate and degrade personal autonomy are applied differently but have the same effect on all those social structures.
> 
> I'm an out-lier suburban/city person. I don't come from a privileged family but a ... well to my chagrin and sadness a family that is caught in the economic paradigm and does not understand that cooperative efforts and tolerance and understanding are substantial qualities in success of a family/community unit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't mean to be a pessimistic throwing this out... but that text made me think of the Kurt Vonnegut novel.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galápagos_(novel)
> 
> _Galápagos_
> 
> _I've also read "Cat's Cradle" should read "Slaugherhouse... five/ "_



Vonnegut is a god! Haven't read Galapagos yet, though. A trip to the library it is. 

It is an unfortunate reality that the human brain is very prone to fallacy; the reasoning, intellectual capacities of the brain only evolved quite recently. The deeply rooted animal brain still holds more emotional sway. However, if we can become aware of our weaknesses and our tendencies to form unreasoned prejudices, I believe that we can begin to overcome our brute shadows. 

I find it sad to think that I could go to a McDonald's almost anywhere in the world. We're scooping the tigers out of the jungles and hiring the Pygmys to work in hotels, molimo be dammed.


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## Odin

iflewoverthecuckoosnest said:


> Vonnegut is a god!



At the very least he makes us think what it is we value, understand and accept as god. Or if we should.



iflewoverthecuckoosnest said:


> It is an unfortunate reality that the human brain is very prone to fallacy




Yes it is.

And so are the instruments of our intellect through the scientific method.
Allow me to play devils advocate... because I do not find the weakness of human experience and consciousness as an argument against the validity of what personal experience validates for an individuals understanding of reality.

You can argue first hand experience and hearsay of a human beings testimony... yet the same can apply to an ultimate level of scientific method.

Science is a revisionist process. There are cherished ideas throughout sciences history and arguably in the present that are held and often defended in science for reasons that have nothing to do with science and everything to do with ego driven pride and economy.

On top of that there are certain limitations of measurement in our ability to ascertain results in the natural world.
The uncertainty principle still holds I believe... and there are if you would call them fringe or crackpot ideas tied into quantum mechanics and perhaps pseudoscience that demonstrate the effect of consciousness on the results of human scientific query. (peace mediation studies for example...?) So I may not be updated but with the increase of fringe ideas I wonder if we overcome our weakness and tendency of brute shadows.

Ultimately embracing both aspects of human scientific inquiry and practical mechanics of survival... gives everyone a better life.

I hope.


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## iflewoverthecuckoosnest

Odin said:


> At the very least he makes us think what it is we value, understand and accept as god. Or if we should.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it is.
> 
> And so are the instruments of our intellect through the scientific method.
> Allow me to play devils advocate... because I do not find the weakness of human experience and consciousness as an argument against the validity of what personal experience validates for an individuals understanding of reality.
> 
> You can argue first hand experience and hearsay of a human beings testimony... yet the same can apply to an ultimate level of scientific method.
> 
> Science is a revisionist process. There are cherished ideas throughout sciences history and arguably in the present that are held and often defended in science for reasons that have nothing to do with science and everything to do with ego driven pride and economy.
> 
> On top of that there are certain limitations of measurement in our ability to ascertain results in the natural world.
> The uncertainty principle still holds I believe... and there are if you would call them fringe or crackpot ideas tied into quantum mechanics and perhaps pseudoscience that demonstrate the effect of consciousness on the results of human scientific query. (peace mediation studies for example...?) So I may not be updated but with the increase of fringe ideas I wonder if we overcome our weakness and tendency of brute shadows.
> 
> Ultimately embracing both aspects of human scientific inquiry and practical mechanics of survival... gives everyone a better life.
> 
> I hope.



Human beings can never be 100% objective. It is not in our nature. The fact that we are emotional, feeling beings is good. The experience of empathy may not be "rational", but it is conducive to a better world. Our subjective experience is what gives our current reality meaning, and I did not mean to invalidate that.
However, the irrational brain can also cause biases, prejudices, etc. and, as you say, that certainly does go up the scientific ladder. Science can never give us absolute objectivity because it is created by humans. What science can give us is the most likely possibility based on reasoned evidence, and the most likely possibility, or theory, is ever changing. It will never be perfect, but it is one of our best tools for acquiring knowledge.
Knowledge applied to the human element in an ethical way can give us a better life, but not a perfect one. We will never overcome the shadow completely, but I hope that we can, at least, come to better terms with it.
This is an interesting conversation. Thank you for giving me food for thought.


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## 36058

It is an interesting conversation and I agree with both of you. Science has limitations because it is based on math, and math is merely an abstraction. Science shares the same basic flaws that all of our opinions share: that it is a work in progress which means while improving - perpetually wrong, subject to bias and subject to the limitations of our observations or experience. And in both cases people become invested in ideas which does not always promote the fastest learning curve.

But if we could learn to come to terms with not knowing, and abandon the fallacy that the scientific method is some magical formula for divining truth we could make good progress at every level by combining the merits of scientific approach with the merits of inspiration and even subjective magic. 

The UNiverse IS a magical place after all. It isn't just a vast collection of charged particles and laws and forces. It is a vast collection of all of those and more arranged into intensely magical arrangements. 

Never discount the obvious.


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## Odin

iflewoverthecuckoosnest said:


> This is an interesting conversation. Thank you for giving me food for thought.



Well I was drinking ROCKET FUEL last night.... so lol. I try.
I agree whole heartedly, empathy is a huge force for change and betterment of the human condition. Rationality is not always the necessary tool.



36058 said:


> It is an interesting conversation and I agree with both of you. Science has limitations because it is based on math, and math is merely an abstraction. Science shares the same basic flaws that all of our opinions share: that it is a work in progress which means while improving - perpetually wrong, subject to bias and subject to the limitations of our observations or experience. And in both cases people become invested in ideas which does not always promote the fastest learning curve.
> 
> But if we could learn to come to terms with not knowing, and abandon the fallacy that the scientific method is some magical formula for divining truth we could make good progress at every level by combining the merits of scientific approach with the merits of inspiration and even subjective magic.
> 
> The UNiverse IS a magical place after all. It isn't just a vast collection of charged particles and laws and forces. It is a vast collection of all of those and more arranged into intensely magical arrangements.
> 
> Never discount the obvious.



Very well said. Awesome. Yes there is an element of the unknown. Of subjective experience and mystery that people who place science on the highest pedestal miss in application of understanding the human experience and world around them.
I'm a huge supporter of scientific method understanding and education. But.
I can't understand strictly taking a view for example that consciousness is nothing but the sum of brain functions.
There is more mystery and more opinions/experiences to add in consideration. Meditation, psychedelic/entheogen experimentation, endoginous neuro chemicals quantum effects in the brains smallest structures and NDE and dream states and just for some... a strangeness to the gritty yet mailable feel of reality.

In relations to your threads subject, the new normal for me is right now a emerging work in progress.
I'm deeply dissatisfied with what modern society puts forward as the "only" means to a successful life.
I plan to create my new normal through the greatest and oldest method. Travel. I need to get out there and take my subjective experience to the unknown... and in time and with intention hopefully find people I can share a close worldview and cooperative lifestyle with. Either in an organized community or if more independent... (say living off a boat) but in an area that provides the community and places to gather and interact with outside of the destructive consumer driven power hungry model of modern times.

This is difficult to do but I will see how far my action... and perhaps more importantly my intentions and mindset can take me.

Just gotta take it easy on the JP-8 jet fuel.


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## iflewoverthecuckoosnest

Science is a language for understanding, just like poetry and art. Languages filter. They become lenses of understanding. The ultimate, however, remains unspeakable. It is beyond any lens, yet imminent in each moment and _as_ each moment. 
"Darkness within darkness, the gateway to all understanding." 
-Lao Tzu
So I can definitely see your point.


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## Kal

Andrea Van Scoyoc said:


> @Kal ...
> 
> My dad's family has oil land in Montana, tied up somehow with the government.
> 
> My grandfather never saw any of the money, my dad didn't, my brother and I, I doubt ever wiil...and the same goes for his kids.
> 
> I never got the whole story...but I have a feeling my family won't ever have access to it. Everyone is tight lipped and I don't have anything to do with my dad's family, so it's not like I could just ask what the deal is.
> 
> Good thing I'm not materialistic. Otherwise, I'd waste money on attorneys, like has already been done.
> 
> If anything, I'd just go protest the land being pumped.
> 
> Not wanting to do anything but get the rigs torn down and the ground turned into a hippie commune certainly wouldn't win me any fans, not in _my_ family.


You would win points with me. Hell no to oil rigs and hell yes to hippie commune.


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## Andrea Van Scoyoc

Kal said:


> You would win points with me. Hell no to oil rigs and hell yes to hippie commune.




Thanks, Kal.

You'd be welcome at the commune, any time!


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## Kal

Andrea Van Scoyoc said:


> Thanks, Kal.
> 
> You'd be welcome at the commune, any time!


Awesome!!!!!!!!


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