# Looking for ideas for an “unethical” app



## MNREDR (Nov 12, 2019)

Hello, this is my first post so please let me know if there’s a better place to talk about this. 

I have an idea for an app that’s useful for travelers who are on a tight budget, or want to be discreet. Basically it would be things like locations of unpatrolled private parking lots, free wifi spots (or methods of obtaining free internet), common police hangouts, public and semi-public washrooms with good privacy, etc. *The general idea is listing places and resources that can be exploited, even if it’s unethical, as long as it’s not illegal or enforceable.*

I’d love to hear any more ideas you might have. If you’re a traveler, what kind of things would you want to know when in a new place?


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## EmmaAintDead (Nov 12, 2019)

I very strongly prefer to keep information like this as word-of-mouth only and not even share it online. When a spot, scam, loophole, or patrol gets blown up for everyone to see, it gets fixed up REAL fast and stops being relevant. Your app will be racing against people whose living it is to make sure things like this don't happen. 

I mean, look at how easy it used to be to scam amtrak and megabus 5 years ago compared to 10 years ago compared to today. One person does it, whatever. Ten people do it, it gets put on a to-do list. A hundred people do it, it gets fixed.


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## MNREDR (Nov 12, 2019)

EmmaAintDead said:


> I very strongly prefer to keep information like this as word-of-mouth only and not even share it online. When a spot, scam, loophole, or patrol gets blown up for everyone to see, it gets fixed up REAL fast and stops being relevant. Your app will be racing against people whose living it is to make sure things like this don't happen.
> 
> I mean, look at how easy it used to be to scam amtrak and megabus 5 years ago compared to 10 years ago compared to today. One person does it, whatever. Ten people do it, it gets put on a to-do list. A hundred people do it, it gets fixed.



Yeah, totally fair. I was thinking that apps like Waze set a precedent for indicating speed cam and cop locations without much trouble. But I can see how the things I mentioned are different.


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## EmmaAintDead (Nov 12, 2019)

Waze is a little different because it's reactive to real-time police initiatives in a way that prior to Waze was reserved for people who had the money to install a scanner or radar alert in their car. The nature of Waze is that, it responds to how police change, police don't change in response to it. 

The nature of an app that would put info out there about more permanent things like sleep spots, scams, wifi, and hangouts would give the police an opportunity to react to US instead of us reacting to THEM. 

Essentially, if the police decide to set up a speed trap, we benefit with our interest in knowing where it is and when it was put up. If travelers decide to set up a guerrilla kitchen, the cops benefit with their interest in knowing where it is. Police try to keep their speed traps secret to anyone who isn't First Response, and guerrilla kitchens try to keep their feeds secret to anyone who isn't homeless or lumpen. An app like this, even if it's in the spirit of Waze, would have an almost opposite function. 

I do have a few pet projects where I'm testing avenues to provide related information to related people, mostly focused on anarchists and not on travellers, and I've kept running into this issue in development. If you're serious about this work and it's not just a passing idea, I encourage you to *PRIVATELY* test out a few avenues and see which has the most promise, and keep developing and working it down to a secure platform that only works for its intended audience. The closest I've got so far is invite codes, but the test run for that was compromised on a closed test within hours, so I imagine real life police would have no issue.

And, honestly, if you put in the work to compiling the info and workshopping some possible implementations, you're more than welcome to keep in touch with me about it, cause I'd love to be able to bounce ideas back and forth about this kind of service. I just can't for the life of me figure out how to do it without either fucking it up for everyone or having a knock on my door from Officer Friendly who "Just wants to talk about my activity"


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## train in vain (Nov 13, 2019)

Bad idea. That is all.


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## Deleted member 26656 (Nov 13, 2019)

MNREDR said:


> Hello, this is my first post so please let me know if there’s a better place to talk about this.
> 
> I have an idea for an app that’s useful for travelers who are on a tight budget, or want to be discreet. Basically it would be things like locations of unpatrolled private parking lots, free wifi spots (or methods of obtaining free internet), common police hangouts, public and semi-public washrooms with good privacy, etc. *The general idea is listing places and resources that can be exploited, even if it’s unethical, as long as it’s not illegal or enforceable.*
> 
> I’d love to hear any more ideas you might have. If you’re a traveler, what kind of things would you want to know when in a new place?


It sounds like a good idea but in the end I don't think it is exactly practical. The problem is that if you have a lot of people going to these places that you speak of then they will get messed up that's just the bottom line.


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## MetalBryan (Nov 14, 2019)

Agreed all around - great idea but destructive in execution.

My question is, this app (or service) is inevitable right? I think it’s reasonable to assume there are hypothetical people outside of this forum, with the best of intentions, are already working on this.


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## Hudson (Nov 14, 2019)

There use to be these waterfalls out where I'm living now a days. You could slide down them like a waterslide. They were a work of art by nature, entirely safe just amazing pristine water. The internet found them like it like it always does. Well there so many people going there and getting hurt, pooping everywhere and leaving trash everywhere that the private land owner decided to close it off.

Last time I went was about 6 months before the obstructions were put in place and there had to be at least 400 people there. Trash everywhere. We tried hiking out with as much trash as we could but it just was not possible. 

I hear stories about this all over the country and it saddens the hell out of me. I don't blame the people from the city acting like wrecking balls everywhere they go; they just do not know any better. 

Ultimately your app would cause the same kind of havoc. Any kind of privacy or sanctuary wouldn't last long if it was public knowledge. What comes to mind is that movie in the early 90's, "The Beach".


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## Jackthereaper (Nov 15, 2019)

There are public washroom apps, free campsite apps, and waze covers the cops so i think a good bit of this info is already out there if you know where to look


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## Matt Derrick (Nov 16, 2019)

I agree with most people that putting stuff online like this in general gets it blown up.

That said tho, I do think there could be a way to make it work that would reduce 'information leak' as much as possible.

We had an 'atlas' on here a while back, which was basically a place to put up cool destinations everyone should check out. No one used it. Or rather, people would read it, but not contribute information. So I eventually shut it down.

I think the fear was people didn't want their spots blown up as has been stated already in this thread. But, I have some ideas on how to prevent that (as much as it can be prevented online).

I haven't had time to implement it yet, but I've been thinking about re-doing the atlas as a purely "city guides" section where anyone could post a guide to their city, or contribute info to someone else's city, and it would be along the lines of what the OP is talking about.

But how to keep that info out of the hands of the enemy you say? The only way it would work is to make it members-only. You'd need a StP account to view that area. No guest viewing, no google indexing, etc. Basically invisible to anyone that isn't logged into StP with an account. This is exactly how our train hopping section of the forum works.

Of course, there's nothing stopping a police officer from registering an account and viewing that area. But, the chances of that happening are pretty slim, and what they could do with that info isnt all that much unless there's just happens to be a city they patrol in listed. So basically, you're bottlenecking the entrance to said info to reduce the likely hood of bad actors, while still making it available to those who need it without going through bs vetting processes and whatnot.

So how would people know it even exists? Well, like @EmmaAintDead mentioned, keeping it word of mouth is the best way to go, but this would just take it up a notch, giving people a place to refer to for that info but keeping that place word of mouth.

My biggest worry here is that, well... this community is a bunch of lazy fucks, and it's really really hard to get anyone to do anything harder than make a forum post, even if it's to help themselves, much less their fellow travelers.

Sucks to say, but it's true. I've invested my own money into several attempted projects like this on StP, waited 6+ months for it to get used and it never does. So I'm a bit hesitant to put my time and money into doing such a project again.

It's something I'd like to see happen, I just don't have the faith that folks will step up to help their fellow wanderers in this way.


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## Deleted member 24782 (Nov 16, 2019)

Why would anyone REALLY need this, when you travel, self-reliance is key, just look around, resources are everywhere. Why would we want to put more trust into phone apps when we have our own wits? Just more time spent staring down at our god damn phone.


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## Matt Derrick (Nov 16, 2019)

Brodiesel710 said:


> Why would anyone REALLY need this, when you travel, self-reliance is key, just look around, resources are everywhere. Why would we want to put more trust into phone apps when we have our own wits? Just more time spent staring down at our god damn phone.



I mean I understand what you are saying, but the point of StP has always been to provide resources to those that need them. But again I'm not really picturing an 'app' for resolving this either.


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## Beegod Santana (Nov 16, 2019)

I think it would be fine if you kept it really general, like "free parking may be available in x district." "Walmart is rv friendly" "travelers congregate on the waterfront" ect.. but anything more explicit would definitely lead to shit being blown way up. I remember back in 06 someone made a map of all the best dumpsters in Portland and Seattle, it did not go well.


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## roughdraft (Nov 17, 2019)

Beegod Santana said:


> I think it would be fine if you kept it really general, like "free parking may be available in x district." "Walmart is rv friendly" "travelers congregate on the waterfront" ect.. but anything more explicit would definitely lead to shit being blown way up. I remember back in 06 someone made a map of all the best dumpsters in Portland and Seattle, it did not go well.



thank you for being the sane voice of reason


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## Dameon (Nov 17, 2019)

This sort of thing could work without blowing stuff up, if people had to have a referral code from a reputable user to set up an account, and if a user got a referral code to give out after a certain amount of verified contributions. Then you limit access to people who probably aren't cops or tweakers, and even if somebody has bad judgement about who they give out codes to, they won't have many codes to hand out so it'll be limited impact.


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## EmmaAintDead (Nov 17, 2019)

Dameon said:


> This sort of thing could work without blowing stuff up, if people had to have a referral code from a reputable user to set up an account, and if a user got a referral code to give out after a certain amount of verified contributions. Then you limit access to people who probably aren't cops or tweakers, and even if somebody has bad judgement about who they give out codes to, they won't have many codes to hand out so it'll be limited impact.


on my first round test for a similar thing (mentioned above) with referral/invite codes, this security measure was bypassed with a "cop" (in actuality, a friend acting as a cop would in order to test this feature) gaining physical access to the phone of a user. That "cop" then sent an invite code to himself, and had access to everything just like that. 

I'd imagine that once word got out about a traveller app that had good info on it, bulls would be going through phones of every crusty they pull from an owlhole


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## Dameon (Nov 17, 2019)

EmmaAintDead said:


> I'd imagine that once word got out about a traveller app that had good info on it, bulls would be going through phones of every crusty they pull from an owlhole


I doubt it. I've never had a bull like, search me for my CCG and take it, which they could easily do and get away with. So far as I can tell, the app has nothing to do with trains, and honestly, most cops aren't detectives trying to solve the great case of where train hoppers dumpster dive. That said, a PIN lock on your phone means it's constitutionally protected from unwarranted search, so be sure to do that anyway.


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## Matt Derrick (Nov 18, 2019)

I think we've already agreed there's no such thing as as 100% security in this kind of thing so there's not much use in going through theoreticals. Also, you screw the lid tight enough and there's not going to be anyone left to contribute information to such a database in the first place.


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## r3yn (Nov 18, 2019)

For my opinion, I think it's a great idea.
Limitations or potential pitfalls have been mentioned, but overall, I think the benefits of sharing information (and by extension, community building) far outweigh the risks.
Do we live life in fear of consequence or do we live life in hopes of discovering new experience?

I think what @Dameon was saying about invite codes is a good idea. And I also think that cops wont care that much to shut down a good dumpster to dive or a roof to sleep on or whatnot. Overall, I think LE is still overburdened with too much bureaucracy and stupid people, which helps others hide in the cracks of the huge machine.

Yeah, sure, we may look at our phone more. But it's still new experience, for us. And I don't know about you guys, but before / while I'm vagabonding, I check and contribute to sources of real info (like here on StP, Wikivoyage, UER, etc.). Then I write real tips about the place, in hopes other vagabonds see it and use it, too. Normies don't care about a tip for an unlocked steam tunnel or a catch-out spot or a good stairwell to sleep in.

That's my take on it. I say "go for it", @MNREDR.
Or at least let's share some tips for Van and the Lower Mainland by PM. XD


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## Matt Derrick (Nov 18, 2019)

I agree we should be a culture of sharing. That said, it's debatable if sharing is worth it if the 'dumpster' or whatever gets shut down. But, like I said before, under controlled circumstances it could probably be done.


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## Spazz (Nov 18, 2019)

Just a quick tech support suggestion if you do decide to do this: the google corporation is not your friend for many reasons. Instead of the google play store, you could use this repository:

https://f-droid.org/
which is more privacy focused as well as being lesser known and off the beaten path a bit. I'm not a phone person, but it seems like it would only make sense, especially if you were going invitation only.


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## Matt Derrick (Nov 18, 2019)

noordinaryspider said:


> Just a quick tech support suggestion if you do decide to do this: the google corporation is not your friend for many reasons. Instead of the google play store, you could use this repository:
> 
> https://f-droid.org/
> which is more privacy focused as well as being lesser known and off the beaten path a bit. I'm not a phone person, but it seems like it would only make sense, especially if you were going invitation only.



ideally this would be a web application on StP, at least in terms of what I've been speaking of. although your suggestion is definitely valid for anyone that wanted to 'appify' such a thing.


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## Maxnomad (Nov 18, 2019)

I think the app in general is a bad idea and stuff like this should stay word of mouth, but this


Matt Derrick said:


> I think we've already agreed there's no such thing as as 100% security in this kind of thing so there's not much use in going through theoreticals


Is a wildly irresponsible attitude to take. Going through theoreticals, as well as beta testing, is exactly how good protocol is developed. Also, i didnt see where there was an agreement on the matter. It sounds like youre trying to pass your preference off as consensus


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## Matt Derrick (Nov 18, 2019)

Maxnomad said:


> I think the app in general is a bad idea and stuff like this should stay word of mouth, but this
> 
> Is a wildly irresponsible attitude to take. Going through theoreticals, as well as beta testing, is exactly how good protocol is developed. Also, i didnt see where there was an agreement on the matter. It sounds like youre trying to pass your preference off as consensus



please get over yourself. it's pretty easy to look over the posts here and see that the majority of people agree with me.

also, you disagreeing with my opinion does not make me 'wildly irresponsible'. i've been doing this a hell of a lot longer than you have kid, and i'm pretty confident i know a little more about what's best for this community, so get off your high horse.


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## WyldLyfe (Nov 18, 2019)

If ya was gonna make a app like that, an ya don't want people, general public to use it or gain info from it, maybe make it so theres a password log in for the app.. if thats a thing... for apps..

And welcome OP.


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## hardhatlibrarian (Nov 18, 2019)

A chunk of what you are looking for might be found in a number of apps using the f-droid app system. F-droid is a repository of free and open source software for android systems.

Some of the programs that might help with your wonderings:

WiGLE WiFi FOSS -- a distributed user system to track wireless networks and cell towers world wide, includes maps and hella large amounts of detail sometimes.
Fruit Radar -- if you find an edible plant share it's location online, get notified if you are near an edible
Basically three quarters of the Navigation pane including a number of open-street map based systems (which includes a transit overlay on the main website btw)
opentopomap (online topographic maps)
OpenTrail (uk based information on rights of way, blockages, walking routes etc.) [side-note this is probably the closest you will find to what you are looking and if you are thinking starting something similar for the community consider examining the issues/advantages this offers before creating a project fork]

a number of transit maps and 'when does the bus arrive' apps
Survival Manual (offline) [side note: fun read, usefulhighly recommend]


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## Maxnomad (Nov 18, 2019)

Matt Derrick said:


> get over yourself





Matt Derrick said:


> i've been doing this a hell of a lot longer than you have kid


Bruh

I havent seen what you seen. I see a lot of people saying its a bad idea that, if implemented, would require some heavy technical uh stuff and proceeding to discuss in that direction . . . So youre wrong broski an your talking over ppl to give the appearance of authority, which you indeed have as, as an author (get it? auth, author, authority, get it?!) of posts you create it by talking. Its just that your logic is bad and youre ignoring folks who disagree in order to be The Dude Talking . . .


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## Matt Derrick (Nov 18, 2019)

Maxnomad said:


> Bruh
> 
> I havent seen what you seen. I see a lot of people saying its a bad idea that, if implemented, would require some heavy technical uh stuff and proceeding to discuss in that direction . . . So youre wrong broski an your talking over ppl to give the appearance of authority, which you indeed have as, as an author (get it? auth, author, authority, get it?!) of posts you create it by talking. Its just that your logic is bad and youre ignoring folks who disagree in order to be The Dude Talking . . .



you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about and now you're just inventing things to justify your opinion with exactly zero evidence to back it up. if you continue down this road I'm going to put your account on a 30 day mute.


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## Deleted member 125 (Nov 18, 2019)

Matt Derrick said:


> My biggest worry here is that, well... this community is a bunch of lazy fucks, and it's really really hard to get anyone to do anything harder than make a forum post, even if it's to help themselves, much less their fellow travelers.



this is very true and relevant to not only this project, but also just in general. in the over 15 years iv been involved in punk or "radical" politics or whatever we are calling it these days i have seen and heard alot of great ideas fizzle out before they even had a real chance to blossom. i wish i had a solution, i really do.


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## Maxnomad (Nov 18, 2019)

Well since you called me on it, i went back over the thread. By my count i see two for the proposal, to include the op, who also considered the objections "fair". Ten against, one i consider vague, and four i would consider "technical"

Nowhere does anyone express sharing your sentiment, which is that security is a hassle and a low priority. However, the four technical contributions directly contradict your assertion that "there's not much use going into theoreticals". So you've got an op proposing an app, a bunch of disagreement with one agree, and you proposing something pretty thouroghly else and bulldozing over (voiced) technical and security concerns with the assertion that noone is concerned with the particular implementation and everyone agrees that security considerations are essentially a waste of time


Maxnomad said:


> Bruh


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## Matt Derrick (Nov 18, 2019)

Maxnomad said:


> Well since you called me on it, i went back over the thread. By my count i see two for the proposal, to include the op, who also considered the objections "fair". Ten against, one i consider vague, and four i would consider "technical"
> 
> Nowhere does anyone express sharing your sentiment, which is that security is a hassle and a low priority. However, the four technical contributions directly contradict your assertion that "there's not much use going into theoreticals". So you've got an op proposing an app, a bunch of disagreement with one agree, and you proposing something pretty thouroghly else and bulldozing over (voiced) technical and security concerns with the assertion that noone is concerned with the particular implementation and everyone agrees that security considerations are essentially a waste of time



Wow. What the fuck is your malfunction? You've both severely misconstrued what I was saying while also being a complete psycho with your tit-for-tat scoreboard no one asked for.

That on top of the fact that I've pretty much given you every opportunity to cool your shit, I'm issuing you a warning point for staff harassment. Since you've already earned one for posting spam, this will mute your account for 30 days.


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## texastraveler (Nov 19, 2019)

EmmaAintDead said:


> on my first round test for a similar thing (mentioned above) with referral/invite codes, this security measure was bypassed with a "cop" (in actuality, a friend acting as a cop would in order to test this feature) gaining physical access to the phone of a user. That "cop" then sent an invite code to himself, and had access to everything just like that.
> 
> I'd imagine that once word got out about a traveller app that had good info on it, bulls would be going through phones of every crusty they pull from an owlhole


would it be possible to password protect or just hide the part of the app which generates invite codes? maybe add in lije a BS password which when entered gives out a non-functional code or a code which only provides access to outdated or inaccurate info


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## Matt Derrick (Nov 19, 2019)

texastraveler said:


> would it be possible to password protect or just hide the part of the app which generates invite codes? maybe add in lije a BS password which when entered gives out a non-functional code or a code which only provides access to outdated or inaccurate info



I don't think that would be necessary, since a user would have to be logged into a account before they could generate an invite code.


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## Dameon (Nov 19, 2019)

texastraveler said:


> would it be possible to password protect or just hide the part of the app which generates invite codes? maybe add in lije a BS password which when entered gives out a non-functional code or a code which only provides access to outdated or inaccurate info


At a certain point, you make the app so difficult to use to try and prevent unauthorized users that you make it too difficult for authorized users.


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