# Starting a Nation



## NocturnalJoe

Have studyed the law a lot and know international law and the law of nations. Will be going to the land mass known as Oregon, north of Medford, lawfully claim some land and start a nation ( country ). If anyone is interested or would like to know more, please let me know.


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## West

I'd like to know more! I read a thread by mmmichael I think, talking about the possibility of building an StP waystation by purchasing a private island, and I figured why not form a wanderpunk/traveler nation? Would you be able to do this on the mainland? Would local/federal authorities recognize it as a nationality?


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## NocturnalJoe

From what I know about the law, and from some personal experience. Yes its possible if you have ( claim ) some land and serval people involved. One can claim abandoned land ( like BLM land ) by sending out public notices, after at least 3 notices, it becomes yours via silence acquenience ( bad spelling sorry ). The u.s. government foes honor and respects it as long as its done right, and within the law. However it does mean giving up your citizenship to the United States.


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## West

Has this ever happened? Can someone visit the mini-nation without revoking their US citizenship? There are some serious requirements involved are there not?


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## NocturnalJoe

Yes its been done before. Yes you can visit without giving up your citizenship just like any other country. There is the law of nations book, and a video talking about it on one of my websites www.rawtube.info


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## West

Awesome! Sorry for asking stupid questions haha I'm just personally interested! Good luck and keep us posted


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## NocturnalJoe

Haha the only stupid question is one that's not asked.  Have really been getting into this, and will start teaching others.


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## Traveler

The idea of claiming land for something like this is really cool but surely the US has strong feelings about this?


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## NocturnalJoe

The US does, but they also do fallow international law. Also according to artical 1, section 8, clause 17 of the constitution they are limited to land of 10 square miles of Washington DC.


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## Traveler

So what's the process like for legally claiming land to form a separate nation?


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## NocturnalJoe

Umm the basics of it would be to find some abandoned land, get as much info on the land as possible like GPS coordinates, ect and post a public notice of abandoned land, asking anyone who owns the land to come forward with proof of ownership. If after 3 public notices no one comes forward as the owner, you can then issue a writ of seizure and adoial ownership.


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## Traveler

What's the time span requirement for the notices?


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## NocturnalJoe

Umm at least 14 days I believe, but 30 days would be better in my opinion. That way you give them time to respond back to you.


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## Traveler

And where does the notice get displayed? The newspaper?


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## NocturnalJoe

Any public outlet works, newspaper, courthouse bullition board, ect. If its listed as being owned by the BLM or something like that, they never answer. Even sending a letter to the registered owner via certified mail works.


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## Thrasymachus

You don't build a community, a tribe or a nation, either you are born into one or you aren't. So many people have failed with so many different communes and intentional communities using every permutation possible.


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## Traveler

Thrasymachus said:


> You don't build a community, a tribe or a nation, either you are born into one or you aren't. So many people have failed with so many different communes and intentional communities using every permutation possible.


I don't know, this one looks pretty successful. http://mw.micronation.org/wiki/Woodland_Patchwork


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## Thrasymachus

Uhhh...... NNNNNNOOOOOOOO!!!!!
From the very source you gave:


Micronation wiki said:


> Woodland Patchwork in Japan
> 
> Population 5
> 
> ... Founded on the Japanese archipelago, The Patch declared independence from Japan on October 23rd, 2013. ...
> 
> Woodland Patchwork is united by 7 counties that each have a form of autonomy. The leader or leaders of a Country are the Count Chiefs. Count Chiefs form the house of Counts in the Patchwork government. ...



It has barely been around for months, it has huge sprawling territory but a puny population of five according to the very source you gave. It definitely looks like a project that will never amount to much besides updating some wikis with contact info that no-one will be able to reach like almost all such projects.


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## NocturnalJoe

If a nation could only exist by being born there, then the U.S. would have never came to be.


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## West

Doesn't mean it can't be done... there are a number of successful communes/"micronations" worldwide. You're right, it's statistically unlikely but maybe you should say that instead of saying it "can't happen"


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## NocturnalJoe

Am looking for people who are seriously interested, to maybe join with me and make it a reality.


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## Thrasymachus

NocturnalJoe said:


> If a nation could only exist by being born there, then the U.S. would have never came to be.



Yes, that is a great example, a nation founded on imperialism, genocide and all other manner of crimes. Good luck on powerless hippy types following the American model...


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## Traveler

Thrasymachus said:


> Uhhh...... NNNNNNOOOOOOOO!!!!!
> From the very source you gave:
> 
> 
> It has barely been around for months, it has huge sprawling territory but a puny population of five according to the very source you gave. It definitely looks like a project that will never amount to much besides updating some wikis with contact info that no-one will be able to reach like almost all such projects.


It's older than a day and Japan hasn't taken it back. That's a success in my book.


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## Thrasymachus

Apparently your book is one of fiction... You don't even know if the Japanese state even knows about it, but then again I doubt you even read the wiki you Googled up before posting it to us.

Alot of even wiki communes are "just starting" and yet you cannot contact many or most of them and they have far less ambitious goals than starting some artificial nation. Yet you are so quick to believe some chimera you only know through a wiki and advertise it as a success without reading it.


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## Traveler

Just because you don't like the statistics doesn't mean that what that man did isn't a success.


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## autumn

Relevant and hilarious:

The *Conch Republic* (República de la Concha) is a micronation declared as a tongue-in-cheek secession of the city of Key West, Florida from the United States on April 23, 1982.
On September 20, 1995, it was reported that the 478th Civil Affairs Battalion of the United States Army Reserve was to conduct a training exercise simulating an invasion of a foreign island. They were to land on Key West and conduct affairs as if the islanders were foreign. However, no one from the 478th notified Conch officials of the exercise.

Seeing another chance at publicity, Wardlow and the forces behind the 1982 Conch Republic secession mobilized the island for a full-scale war (in the Conch Republic, this involved firing water cannons from fireboats and hitting people with stale Cuban bread), and protested to the Department of Defensefor arranging this exercise without consulting the City of Key West. The leaders of the 478th issued an apology the next day, saying they "in no way meant to challenge or impugn the sovereignty of the Conch Republic", and submitted to a surrender ceremony on September 22.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conch_Republic


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## autumn

Oh, and if you want to see an example of a micronation that worked out, look no further than Freetown Christiania


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## sketchytravis

lolwat? i wanna see how this one pans out for ya man, good luck


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## Odin

Conch republic was on a list of micronations I read somewhere but Freetown Christiania is a new one. Interesting too. Thanks.

Matt. We need to get this going. An STP micronation. ::cigar::


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## Kim Chee

I'm not saying the micronation thing can't happen. I don't think there will be a problem unless:

You don't pay your taxes
You don't lay down your arms when invaded
You don't keep the mailman from delivering U.S. mail
You don't obey federal or state laws

I live on an Indian Reservation and the tribe governs themselves. However, Federal law still prevails here. I seeum FBI here all the time. I don't think you'll ever achieve true sovereignty while within the borders of the U.S. (if anybody deserves it more than American Natives I'd like to hear about it). I'll be convinced that you have been successful when you renounce citizenship, arm your citizens to defend yourselves against your oppressors, hold elections, make your own laws and stand on your own without assistance from the Fed or State Govt.


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## Kim Chee

...so if this ever gets off the ground, I'd like to be your token idiot.


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## tobepxt

I have always loved the idea of micro nations.


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## NocturnalJoe

I am not doing a micro nation >.< I do know the law of nations and international law.


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## Kim Chee

NocturnalJoe said:


> I am not doing a micro nation >.< I do know the law of nations and international law.



Not knockin' your knowledge of the "law of nations" or "international law". Will the Government whose borders you reside within know and recognize those laws as well?

I clicked on your website and it says it is unavailable.
http://www.rawtube.info/cgi-sys/suspendedpage.cgi

Is there a difference between a "micro nation" and what you have in mind?
Also, why would several people need to be involved? Is that a legal requirement or just a preference? In the good old days people simply took land by force or purchased it and it was theirs to do as they pleased (made laws, etc.). You say that this has been done before they way you mention. In the U.S.? Can you provide examples?

I repeat:
I don't think there will be a problem unless:
You don't pay your taxes
You don't lay down your arms when invaded
You don't keep the mailman from delivering U.S. mail
You don't obey federal or state laws


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## NocturnalJoe

My websites are suspended, gotta call the hosting company on Monday. Some paperwork is on my websites. In law there is a huge difference between a nation vs a micro nation. As for how many people are required, it can be as little as 3. Multiple people are needed so in law there is a body. There are some lawful requirements that need to be met. I plan on showing people how to do this stuff step by step, as I am doing the steps myself. As for the U.S. Government, if things are done properly, you would be outside their jurisdiction and therefore out of their laws. But not outside the law of nations and international law.


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## Kim Chee

I found a wiki on "seasteading" which some may find interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasteading

Not sure if it belongs here or should get its own thread. Seems like that by being in international waters, you eliminate some problems all while taking on a shitload of others (along with raising your profile 10x). Just an idea, as bad as it is maybe there is something useful to glean.


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## Margin Walker

From one settler to another, this nation, like all nations, is an occupying force on traditional indigenous lands. Check yourself.


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## Kim Chee

Thrasymachus said:


> You don't build a community, a tribe or a nation, either you are born into one or you aren't. So many people have failed with so many different communes and intentional communities using every permutation possible.



This is the same self-defeating attitude which makes change impossible. 




"...others have failed, therefore I will not try."
Thrasymachus


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## Thrasymachus

No, I am just a realist who likes living on the ground on Planet Earth. I don't like believing in unrealistic fantasies. The thread starter is a bs-er who kept repeating and repeating and "I studied law and international law, I am expert, trust me, you can start your own micro-nation in the most powerful nation-state, the USA and get away with it." Yet he never demonstrated any real expertise or gave any evidence or examples. Even the real conquered nations who allegedly have local autonomy and treaty rights, don't have much power and have to obey federal law, as you yourself posted. This is how they are doing:


Fred Beauvais said:


> SPOTLIGHT ON SPECIAL POPULATIONS: American Indians and Alcohol (PDF)
> 
> ... In a review of existing data, May and Moran (1995), for instance, cited the rate of alcohol-related deaths for Indian men as 26.5 percent of all deaths and the rate for women as 13.2 percent. ...


The US government and the ruling elites are not some love and peace hippies, despite what some in this thread like to believe, they destroy all their enemies and perceived rivals.

The US government is so organized in crushing mass movements, that time and time again it has been proven that roughly 1 in 6 protesters are agent provocateurs:


Kevin Zeese said:


> OCCUPY: Infiltration of Political Movements is the Norm, Not the Exception in the United States.
> 
> ...
> 
> *How many agents or infiltrators can we expect to see inside a movement? One of the most notorious “police riots” was the 1968 Democratic Party Convention. Independent journalist Yasha Levine writes: “During the 1968 protests of the Democratic National Convention in Chicago, which drew about 10,000 protesters and was brutally crushed by the police, 1 out of 6 protesters was a federal undercover agent.* That’s right, 1/6th of the total protesting population was made up of spooks drawn from various federal agencies. That’s roughly 1,600 people! *The stat came from an Army document obtained by CBS News in 1978, a full decade after the protest took place. According to CBS, the infiltrators were not passive observers, monitoring and relaying information to central command, but were involved in violent confrontations with the police.” [Emphasis in original.]
> 
> Peter Camejo, who ran for Governor of California in 2003 as a Green and as Ralph Nader’s vice president in 2004, often told the story about his 1976 presidential campaign. Camejo able to get the FBI in court after finding their offices broken into and suing them over COINTELPRO activities. The judge asked the Special Agent in Charge how many FBI agents worked in Camejo’s presidential campaign; the answer was 66 agents. Camejo estimated he had a campaign staff of about 400 across the country. Once again that would be an infiltration rate of 1 out of 6 people.* Camejo discovered that among the agents was his campaign co-chair. He also discovered eavesdropping equipment in his campaign office and documents showing the FBI had followed him since he was a student activist at 18 years old.
> 
> ...



There is an oft-repeated joke that goes: How could you tell which members of the Communist Party of the USA were really government agents? The ones that always paid their dues on time. And it was a joke based in realism.

Anyway, you don't even think much of this idea in reality, mmmmmmmichael, as judged by your previous replies to this thread before this one, you were one of the few responding to be realistic enough to know the US government is not gonna sit by while a threat emerges. You just got really offended after I replied with this post to one of your threads, and went fishing through my post history to nit-pick. That is all.


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## lry

I like the idea, although I worry about something like waco happening. Is there really law that would allow such an undertaking?

Edit: Removed my hastily written rant.


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## Thrasymachus

I am proud to be a serious person, perhaps, much unlike you. I don't care if flaky people who want to believe in fantasies don't like my posts. I try to give sound advice in real life and on the internet and say what I feel needs to be said, not what people want to hear, which is what people like you seem to want. Alot of people, especially unreliable types, don't like that, but whatever, life is not a popularity contest.

When I saw this thread, I thought it was a ridiculous idea(like your pretending to bury your surplus stuff and digging it up later) and I gave good evidence of how the ruling class destroys all and infiltrates all rivals. No one in government or the financial elite who decides who sub-contracts for them in the political elite, is gonna sit by and watch people form a nation in their midst, period.

PS: If you notice, all my posts are on-topic, unlike say your immature outburst above, just to say you don't like me, which I don't care about(and secondly it is redundant since you neg my posts anyway).


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## NocturnalJoe

Yes there really are laws that allow it. Would not take much at all really once someone understands the law of nations.

Quick example: http://www.melchizedek.com


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## Thrasymachus

More trust you, because you pretend to be an expert... While demonstrating no mastery of the facts at hand. How about you try to actually demonstrate this "law of nations" you pretend to know all the time?

Melchizedek, is the best example you can give in the long course of this thread? Well the Dominion of Melchizedek you cite probably after a poor and quick google search is recognized by no state or organization of note, thus it is worthless unilateral declaration that no one respects. Further it is a well known fraud and scam:


Quatloos: Financial & Tax Fraud Education Associates said:


> The so-called Dominion of Melchizedek (hereinafter "DoM") is a fake nation which exists only in cyberspace, or in the literature and actions of the scam artists who perpetrate this fraud. There is no real Dominion of Melchizedek, but this doesn't stop the scammers from selling utterly worthless bank licenses for tens-of-thousands of dollars.
> 
> The DoM attempts to hold itself out as some sort of quasi-religious body, even to the point of having its own version of the Bible. But for all their self-righteousness, the truth is that the DoM not only commits fraud, but also materially facilitates the fraud of others by creating phony banks, stock exchanges, arbitration forums, etc., in an attempt to give some illusory legitimacy to criminals who are directly defrauding the public by way of pyramid-scheme bank debenture scams and other criminal schemes.
> 
> ...
> 
> ... a fictitious country created by a father/son conspiracy who are multi-convicted felons named David and Mark Pedley."





Dallas Observer said:


> By David Pasztor Thursday, May 2 1996
> 
> ...
> 
> A convicted swindler started it all. Mark Logan Pedley, according to news reports, was found guilty of fraud in both California and Massachusetts in the early 1980s. The California charges involved Pedley's penchant for selling land he did not own. In Massachusetts, it was a peso-conversion scheme that bilked investors out of an estimated $6 million, according to a 1991 article in Forbes magazine.
> 
> In 1990, after getting out of prison on parole, Pedley launched his grandest scheme, founding the Dominion of Melchizedek. He named his new country after the biblical priest who blessed Abraham, and gave himself a new name as well--Branch Vinedresser. That name supposedly came from the Bible, too.
> 
> ...





The Washington Post said:


> THE RUSE THAT ROARED; It's War! Island Nation Targets France in Ruthenian Missile Crisis November 05, 1995,
> ...
> 
> Melchizedek says its several hundred banks hold a "net asset value" of $ 25 billion, yet President Pearlasia remains in arrears to the state of California, having failed to pay a court-imposed sanction of $ 1,431.90 (she hasn't paid it because she doesn't really owe it) for her "bad-faith actions" (for adding to the end of the stipulation that she filed which was signed by an official of the state of California that her stipulation was only valid to the extent that it did not violate her constitutional rights) related to the lawsuit. ...
> 
> "It's a con artists' operation through and through," declares John Shockey, head of the fraud unit in the office of the U.S. Comptroller of the Currency. "It's a phony bank, a phony country, a phony dominion -- the whole thing's a phony." ...
> 
> From Canada to Mexico, London to Hong Kong, financial entities and individuals connected to Melchizedek have drawn the attention of banking and investment regulators. Officials say the Dominion was concocted (this is false) to issue bogus banking charters; Shockey routinely issues warnings that U.S. banks should not process any checks or drafts drawn on Melchizedek banks (not true, show us a copy of one of those warnings).
> 
> In Hong Kong this summer, a judge sentenced a young Austrian baker (he had no authority from DOM) to six months in jail for attempting to cash checks totaling $ 500,000, drawn on the Asia Pacific Bank of Melchizedek. The baker called himself Crown Prince Gerald-Dennis Sayn-Wittgenstein-Hohenstein and held a diplomatic passport as Melchizedek's "ambassador at large." According to an account in the South China Morning Post, the judge dismissed the idea that the whole thing was a joke, saying, "A fraud on the banking system of Hong Kong is a very serious business." Beyond being an annoyance to bankers and bureaucrats, the Dominion of Melchizedek enjoys toying with journalists. ...
> 
> ...



So, good example... I expect a lot of totally unrealistic types and flaky stoners to negative this post for using the _lived social society reality extinguisher_, which is apparently devastating for their delusional world-view where any hokey character can write anything no matter how implausible and unrealistic and they will believe it, simply because they want to.


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## NocturnalJoe

Well the law of nations is best demarested in The Law Of Nation ( a book published back in the late 1700's ) by which all country's or nation states have agreed to operate by. 

But then I am pointing this out to someone who is dead set agsent even the idea of it, so its kinda a wasted effort. 

As far as showing by example I will be doing that within the next year.


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## Thrasymachus

That is not really demonstrating any deep knowledge. The law of nations is best described for the most part as "might makes right." The powerful pretend they follow laws(which they make anyway), but in reality they don't. What they actually do despite their allegations of being societies based on fair rules or just laws, is that they do whatever they feel they can get away with, whenever they feel like they can get away with it, against whomever they feel like they can get away with it. This applies to the micro level of your boss at work to the macro level of the political elite of nations(bought and chosen by the true elites, the economic elites). No powerful nation will respect a self-declaration of another upstart nation aiming to carve out of its territory, a territory for itself, and if such a movement ever amounts to more than a joke(which in this case it certainly won't) any said real nation-state with an army and police force will take active counter-measures against the fake nation-state. Obviously the side with the army, police, bureaucrats, schools, judges, courts, and other sundry mechanisms of the modern state and more importantly the acceptance of the majority of the population, will win over against the unrealistic dreamers, stoners, neo-hippies and scammers thinking they can start a nation.

But yes update us on your boon-doogle. I could use the laughs from hearing reports of someone who cannot even simply demonstrate he knows what he is talking about online, actually thinking he can start some real sovereign nation or micro-nation, or what have you, in actual social space-time.


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