# The Pronouns Thread



## EmmaAintDead

Okay folks. So, in another thread there was some pretty good and necessary discussion regarding pronouns, correct and incorrect use when referring to trans/non-binary people, how that impacts us, and the importance of using correct social markers when interacting with each other. Given how important this conversation is to have as well as the context of the original thread, I decided to go ahead and follow @EphemeralStick 's suggestion and dedicate a thread specifically to this, away from the dumpster fire of a thread it originated in.

To start, my pronouns are she/they, I'm trans non-binary, femme, and queer. I came out as trans in 2012, at which point I strictly used she/her pronouns. I came out as non-binary in 2018 and have since adopted they/them in addition to she/her. I've got a lot to say here, so bear with me, cause I'm going to address, explain, and try to extend something of an olive branch where things get heated. In the spirit of this being a discussion with good intent and a subject matter that ALL OF US benefit from being familiar with, I ask that cis people recognize up front that I'm not trying to be patronizing, dismissive, or ill-willed with my responses, but also that this conversation can veer to feeling dangerous to trans people VERY quickly and that trans people in this conversation, myself included, may take a tone that reflects this. Please try to be understanding of that. As well, fellow trans hobos, I'm not trying to put words in anybody's mouth. I understand that my own view and my own experiences are precisely that - mine. Not yours. But as well as you speak from a place of authority on this matter because YOU live this, so do I, and even we might not see eye to eye - I want yall to understand I'm not trying to invalidate or talk over anyone, even through the high potential for disagreement. 

Further, I've done my best to strip the below of any thread-dependent context so anyone can join this without having to read 6 pages of very unfortunate posts.

So, let's get to it! I want to start off with this, from the original thread, which I feel set the tone for the original discussion. There is nuance beyond this that I feel is largely lost without a decent understanding of queer struggle:



EphemeralStick said:


> non-binary, queer folk have been fighting for decades to make they/them pronouns the default
> ...
> using they/them pronouns in place of a transpersons specified pronouns is a frustrating mistake. It is in NO WAY maliciously denying a person's transition.


This is true, but can contextually be a little more complicated. "They" as a default has been something queers have pushed for until such time "they" is rendered a societal standard for addressing people whose gender you are unsure of, as it's a default inclusive of both binary and nonbinary people. At the point where that's not the case, that is to say at the point you've been made aware that that person goes by he/him or she/her, "they" ceases to be the default and is intended to shift. In the event that someone has been using "they" for someone who has repeatedly corrected that her pronouns are she/her, the use of they becomes something that can and often does appear malicious. And, given the rest of the post I pulled this quote from, I'm safe to assume you are at least aware of situations where this has been the case. Cis people can and do lean on "they" as a way to acknowledge transness while not admitting the full scope and reality of gender identity. We see some of this in action in this next quote, intentionally or not.



Engineer J Lupo said:


> Or maybe, just maybe you could consider just exactly how hard it is for everyone else who's not a trans person to completely rewire their brain from the pronouns they've always used for a person.
> 
> It isn't fucking easy, but you just keep trying to get it right. Oh and you know what makes it even harder? When the person has some physical/vocal traits that closer resemble their former gender a lot more than the one they identify with. I happen to know for sure the person we're talking about here has a deep, very deep voice.


It is hard. It's a cultural shift against the grain of what people have been conditioned to feel, think, and speak. And trying to get it right is a HUGE thing, and something people ought not to be discouraged from doing. Here's my main issue with this comment, though, is that it shifts the onus of speaking to a trans person with respect onto the trans person and doesn't keep it on the speaker. "It's hard because we've all been raised in a way that fundamentally doesn't accept this as the correct way to do things" is one thing, and something I very much agree with. "It's hard because some trans people don't look/sound trans enough" is another thing entirely, and that's what this conveys. In the queer world, we call this "passing politics." The long and short of it is, "passing" means one appears to the average person as the gender they ARE more often than not, and not "passing" means one appears as another gender than the one they are more often than not. And it's important to examine where that actually falls in your own views in relation to how you interact with queers, trans people, and nonbinary people. Does having a deep voice make a woman less of a woman? Does having tits make a man less of a man? Are you in a position to decide that's the case, and further, are you in a position where voicing that view is something positive to do? Because, as I see it, "It's hard for me to call this woman 'she' because of a deep voice" sounds like you understand that trans people 1.) exist, 2.) deserve to exist, and 3.) should be respected in existence, but that there is a benchmark they must hit before that person is deserving of the effort of committing pronouns to memory. 




Engineer J Lupo said:


> Maybe I'm a huge transphobe too, because I also have those rare but frustrating slip ups where I get the pronouns wrong.


And I'm not about to call you a transphobe. Because, yeah, you realize it's frustrating to slip up. But I am ABSOLUTELY saying that I feel like the root of the difficulty you're having is deeply tangled in a basis of transphobia. In the same sense that a white person in the US may not be racially prejudiced personally, they still exist in a racist culture that de-facto benefits them over racial minorities, you may not have any personal prejudice against trans people BUT you are coming from a place that exists in a transphobic culture that de-facto benefits cis people. And I think that's worth reflecting on, examining, and discussing in a sincere way. 



Older Than Dirt said:


> I get the idea of respecting gender self-definition_,_ but to fall out with an old pal because they use the wrong_ pronouns_ about a third party not present?
> 
> This just seems narcissistic and silly_._


My feelings on this boil down fairly well to this: What two people say about a third person who isn't there is how they truly feel about that person. That third person's absence isn't an excuse to stop trying. If it's used as one, it seems less like the first two people are trying so much as they are performing a ritual for the third person to make themselves feel better about being nice to a trans person. If you were to be alone with someone who is very kind to women, but in confidence says some sexist shit, I would hope you'd be willing to say "hey, that's not right. That's not cool, and it doesn't matter that there are no women around, that kinda stuff is harmful." 



autumn said:


> there might be specific circumstances that result in someone not wanting to be referred to as 'they.'
> ...
> It's not because it's magically easier. It's because trans people understand what it feels like to be misgendered, and as a result care enough to get it right.
> 
> Sometimes it's hard, and sometimes it takes time. But it's not 1+ year hard.
> 
> Trying but casually failing for a year to use the correct pronouns for someone is an issue of indifference.


Precisely this, actually. For those reading, I touched on a circumstance earlier wherein someone would NOT want to be called "they." If a trans man says "my pronouns are he/him" and someone repeatedly calls him "they," that's a subtle denial of their identity. What this tells us is, "I understand that you are trans and I do not respect you enough to address you as a man." And while this might not be anyone here's intent, it is the intent of SO MANY PEOPLE OUT THERE that it becomes hard for us to differentiate friend and foe. When people who genuinely care and are trying make the same mistake that people who actively wish harm on us intentionally use, it blurs the line for us a bit. And that's something the cis people here NEED to understand in this conversation. A slip up is a slip up. Prolonged misgendering is another thing entirely. And after a year of that? Yeah, the line is gonna be blurred.



blank said:


> Why would someone have an issue being referred to as they? They is a pronoun that can even apply to inanimate objects. Where's X? Oh, they went to the store. What's up with the things on the floor? Oh, they fell.


This is a post I love very much because it very nearly hits the nail on the head in answering the question it is asking itself. Repeatedly calling a binary trans person "they" has this effect precisely. It's a pronoun that can even apply to inanimate objects. And that's how repeated misgendering makes trans people feel. Non-human. Like objects. If you are a woman, and someone consistently uses language to describe you that completely neglects that you're a woman, but instead paints a very un-gendered and neutral image of you... yeah, that's kinda the same as being stripped of a big part of your identity. 



Older Than Dirt said:


> Why exactly is it the duty of folks to "correctly gender" others?
> 
> Why does one person's particular performance of gender confer the right to police the speech of others?


You have no duty in anything other than that to yourself. If you don't want to correctly gender someone, you don't have to. It makes you look like a huge asshole, and people are going to treat you like a huge asshole, but nobody is going to lock you up for misgendering someone. In that, nobody is policing anything. What's being said is, regardless of intent, words mean things, and specific contexts of words mean specific things to specific people. Gender performance is something that ideally would automatically solicit the response of correcting yourself in gendered language when referring to someone else. "This person is obviously highlighting these gendered aspects" ideally begets the follow-up of "so I suppose I should refer to them by those gender markers" and does not follow with "so I suppose they are policing my right to speech by forcing me to use words I don't want to use." 

Ultimately, what you do is up to you. Just realize, if what you do has an impact of those around you, then those around you will respond to that impact how they see fit. It's not an attack on your autonomy if someone you constantly misgender tells you to shut the fuck up, it's an attack on theirs that you voluntarily and without provocation see it fit to make them feel shitty.



Engineer J Lupo said:


> When you know someone for years and years and they're a guy as far as you know and then one day they switch it up, that shit isn't easy for others to get right immediately. Even a year later, if you haven't seen the person but once or twice in all that time.. is that really enough time? I get the feeling no matter how clear I make this, it's falling on deaf ears. Oh and I'm not saying the trans person this is all centered around didn't do anything in the looks department or whatever.. I'm just saying if there's still some of the old traits left behind like voice.. it adds a level of difficulty. Call me a transphobe for that, I don't give a fuck.



Honestly, yeah. Knowing someone as one gender for most of their lives and then coming to terms with a completely new idea is REALLY difficult. Trust me, that's exactly what I had to experience when myself came out to myself. It's not just you who is trying. The person you are trying FOR is trying, too. And it's a lot of uncharted waters for everyone involved. That's why I put in so much effort to explaining where I'm coming from in this post, really. It's not something that just comes to fruition on its own for anyone on any side of this situation, and the difference between trying and succeeding and trying and failing is trying together. If we're going to be in this together, then a lot of this "but your voice is deep" shit just has to go. And I don't know what that means for you, but I do know what it means for the person you're referring to, and it means EVERYTHING. So yeah, it's not easy for cis people to just get it right. But the stakes arent as high for yall as they are for us. And trying and failing for you might mean having a few people mad at you. But trying and failing for us may mean violence against us from people who hate us and see us as an easy target because of a brief moment of vulnerability. 



Engineer J Lupo said:


> Nobody said anything about it needing to be magically easier. I wish it were magically easier for trans people to understand when we fuck up the pronouns too but I digress. Those of us who are allies who aren't trans, we care enough to get it right too. We might not understand what it feels like to be misgendered but we love our friend/family member etc and we want to get it right because we respect them.


And this matters. The fact that you know your loved ones appreciate the fact that you try is wonderful, and the fact that you acknowledge your respect is awesome. All I ask is that it doesn't end with "i'm trying" as an abstract, and that people really do examine what that means, and what changes can be made to ensure that trying actually makes a difference. 


So, that was a lot. And I hope it is useful in continuing the discussion. Cause, damn folks, there's a lot of room to make this productive for everyone involved, and I believe in us.


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## EmmaAintDead

Oh shit, I meant for this to be in general, not politics & Anarchism. Could a mod kindly migrate it?


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## Deleted member 125

EmmaAintDead said:


> Oh shit, I meant for this to be in general, not politics & Anarchism. Could a mod kindly migrate it?



Done. While this thread is meant to be educational for folks I can see some questions being asked that may seem or even be offensive to some people, so please for the love of heritage units let's try to keep this civil and respectful.


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## Strangeandsolo

Tough topic... as I am thinking what to say here i have a feeling I am "un-safe" in having my mind and thoughts examined as I identify as "male" I have "boy" parts and I fall in the old common binary 2 gender system . Then part of me thinks what it must be like on the other hand of this conversation... and I find it even more terrifying... thank you for sharing this emma.... as I understand pronouns its like names at work ... its very simple "richard a" likes to be called dick "richard b" likes to be called rick its rude or shows no respect to mix them up. onec or twice maybe when You just got hired but you shouldn't be doing in 3 years later. However its not evil or uncommon to have a slip up during stressful workday and get names mixed up, you apologise and keep trying to get the names right and move on to the next job... I'm not really "woke" or cultured but feel good manners help us express humanity. For my own feeling of understanding do I have this right are gender pronouns like names?


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## Matt Derrick

So I would like to first say thank you to @EmmaAintDead for taking the time to start this thread out of the shit show thread it began in so that something more positive may come out of it.



EmmaAintDead said:


> "They" as a default has been something queers have pushed for until such time "they" is rendered a societal standard for addressing people whose gender you are unsure of, as it's a default inclusive of both binary and nonbinary people. At the point where that's not the case, that is to say at the point you've been made aware that that person goes by he/him or she/her, "they" ceases to be the default and is intended to shift. In the event that someone has been using "they" for someone who has repeatedly corrected that her pronouns are she/her, the use of they becomes something that can and often does appear malicious.



This is basically what I came to say, although it is put much more eloquently in the quote above. IMO, it is okay to use the term 'they' as a generic term for a person until their preferred pronouns _are made known_. At that point it does fall on the responsibility of the addresser to comply with that person's wishes.

Unfortunately, as a society, I think we are still kind of figuring this stuff out as we go along (I remember days when the terms were 'co' and 'z' before 'they' were decided upon as the non gendered standard) and we're also combatting thousands of years of trans/homo phobia in the process. Part of this is thousands of years of lingusitical bias that is extremely ingrained into nearly everything we do.

That doesn't mean we should shirk the responsibility to keep evolving that language, just that we all should understand that it is a _process, _and it's going to take some time.


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## EmmaAintDead

Strangeandsolo said:


> Tough topic... as I am thinking what to say here i have a feeling I am "un-safe" in having my mind and thoughts examined as I identify as "male" I have "boy" parts and I fall in the old common binary 2 gender system . Then part of me thinks what it must be like on the other hand of this conversation... and I find it even more terrifying... thank you for sharing this emma....


Thanks for reading it! <3 I'm happy it came across as informative and not just ranty, and I appreciate you taking the time to put yourself in another's shoes even though it's not easy.



Strangeandsolo said:


> as I understand pronouns its like names at work ... its very simple "richard a" likes to be called dick "richard b" likes to be called rick its rude or shows no respect to mix them up. onec or twice maybe when You just got hired but you shouldn't be doing in 3 years later. However its not evil or uncommon to have a slip up during stressful workday and get names mixed up, you apologise and keep trying to get the names right and move on to the next job... I'm not really "woke" or cultured but feel good manners help us express humanity. For my own feeling of understanding do I have this right are gender pronouns like names?


Honestly, I love this. This is a really nice simple analogy. 



Matt Derrick said:


> So I would like to first say thank you to @EmmaAintDead for taking the time to start this thread out of the shit show thread it began in so that something more positive may come out of it.


This is a wonderful community in a place where I never expected to see anything more than punk houses and late night "do you know wheres a good spange" texts. I just want to help foster growing that as best I can <3 



Matt Derrick said:


> That doesn't mean we should shirk the responsibility to keep evolving that language, just that we all should understand that it is a _process, _and it's going to take some time.


If I could heart react this twice I would


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## Eng JR Lupo RV323

First of all, thank you for taking the time to put this together. I think it's important, I think it's needed and you've done a really good job of putting in terms most anyone should be able to understand. I can't say I'm thrilled about being quoted so often throughout the thing as though I'm one of the sole people here with the biggest problem, but I did learn a thing or two from it so maybe that's a worthy sacrifice.

I do have a serious problem with people putting words in my mouth though. Another thing I have a problem with is being told what my intentions are when I'm pretty certain I know my intentions better than anyone... pretty sure right? Idk, maybe you got me pegged better than me. Humor me though, while I make my case.




EmmaAintDead said:


> Does having a deep voice make a woman less of a woman? Does having tits make a man less of a man?



Nope, not even in the slightest. Though I bet you often times both of those things cause great insecurity for the person. I bet if you asked 10 men with big tits if their tits make them feel less like a man, I'd wager a lot on at least 9/10 would say fuck yeah they do. Or same with the deep voice woman, does your voice make you feel too masculine mam? She said yes, yes it does. But that's neither here nor there. That isn't what I have an issue with but it's sort of tied into the section I quoted so I wanted to address it.




EmmaAintDead said:


> Are you in a position to decide that's the case, and further, are you in a position where voicing that view is something positive to do?



Am I in a position to say that's what makes a man manly or a woman womanly? Fuck no, that isn't my position at all and it's also not something I ever said. I said it's harder to make the change abruptly because of conditioning. Am I going to die on the hill of "nothing was wrong with that conditioning" no way! I'm 44 years old, I've been conditioned in a lot of horrible ways that I've been trying so fucking hard to unlearn.

The 70 year old dudes around in this day and age were the 25 year olds in my ear when I was a kid. It's been quite the chore to unlearn a lot of this shit, I recognize it and by all means help me out with some other shit if you see it. Call me out on that shit. I want to evolve and be the best version of myself that I can be. That's why I'm not arguing almost every point you made, but this portion of it that I quoted definitely ain't right.



EmmaAintDead said:


> Because, as I see it, "It's hard for me to call this woman 'she' because of a deep voice" sounds like you understand that trans people 1.) exist, 2.) deserve to exist, and 3.) should be respected in existence, but that there is a benchmark they must hit before that person is deserving of the effort of committing pronouns to memory.



This is actually the part that bothers me the most. Please don't "quote" me and change up the shit I said. If you wanna quote me, show me the same respect I've shown you. Quote me verbatim and then make your case. If you gotta spin my words at all to make your case.. your case isn't against me anymore, you just have an agenda. I didn't say what you quoted so I'm not even going to fuck with it, that's just some made up shit. This is what I said;



Engineer J Lupo said:


> Oh and you know what makes it even harder? When the person has some physical/vocal traits that closer resemble their former gender a lot more than the one they identify with.



You acknowledged above that you understand it's hard.



EmmaAintDead said:


> Honestly, yeah. Knowing someone as one gender for most of their lives and then coming to terms with a completely new idea is REALLY difficult



So all I've said here is that when the person has some left over traits from the gender they're trying to no longer be known as.. it makes it *harder.*
Surely you can understand that too right? Big burly dude, rugged beard.. deep voice, shaved head.. he says "It's Ms. DiFranco to you!" it's a little harder to make it stick right? Takes more repetition right? It's conditioning, whether it's positive or negative conditioning is beside the point. We want to work beyond it but its definitely still in there a little bit. Guys sound like this typically, women sound like that. If I got my head turned and I hear the voice I'm thinking he/him.



EmmaAintDead said:


> but that there is a benchmark they must hit before that person is deserving of the effort of committing pronouns to memory.



Not something I said and not something I feel. I don't think there's any benchmark before that person is deserving of effort/pronouns etc. If there is a benchmark in my opinion it's that they're at least being true to themselves. If they've come to terms with it, who the fuck am I to set benchmarks. See, you making it out as though I set a benchmark makes me look like a hardliner. I never said there's a benchmark I just said it's harder. I didn't say the effort shouldn't be made, I just said it's harder. I didn't say I need it to magically be easy, I just said it's harder, but we absolutely should make the effort, always!


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## EmmaAintDead

That was my own fault in poor contextual editing, @Engineer J Lupo -- I absolutely did mean to mark that as paraphrasing and not a direct quote from you. That was supposed to be more like, this is how that sounds to me, not this is what you said exactly. My apologies for that. 

Which, no, I wasn't trying to tell you what your intentions were, nor was I trying to make a case against you. Part of my point is that your intentions may not translate to others. Gender markers like voice and body features absolutely DO impact how we see each other. Saying that keeping pronouns straight because of a gender marker like that, however, comes across to me as the paraphrased statement moreso than the direct quote. And, honestly, that's because that's something I see in myself and am self conscious about. In my head, that played something like, "I have a deep voice, what would this person think of me?" 

And that's not necessarily fair to you, but that's a facet of this conversation that should be explored. Intent and the message that's actually sent in terms of pronouns can be two WILDLY different things, and bridging that gap into the speaker understanding what message the audience got was and the audience understanding what the intent of the speaker is can work wonders in mutual understanding here.

To me, it's more or less an issue of what "trying" means and whether or not that includes examining one's own position in the issue. And that's something I can see that you make efforts in, and I appreciate that. That's all that I, personally, can ask of anyone, is that attempts are made and that they lead to something better than the starting point.


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## EmmaAintDead

For what it's worth, I never was a big Ani DiFranco fan, but i do get the reference


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## Eng JR Lupo RV323

Thanks. For what it's worth on my end.. I had just woken up from a nap when I read all this and responded. I believe my tone was a little defensive. I edited out a line or two in an effort to sound less gruff. It's a really good thread, I'm glad we're talking about it.


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## Influential

This all confuses me soooo much. I'm sorry. I hope no offence. I guess I'm just grossly uneducated.


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## Eng JR Lupo RV323

Well read it a few times until it sticks, educate yourself. It's important. Losing friends over it is bad enough but people's safety is on the line. Add to that the suicide rate is fucking scary amongst transfolk. The better educated people become, the sooner we can evolve into a more inclusive world. Don't just apologize and say you're uneducated, do something about it.


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## blank

Looks like they made another topic for it. See? If the word they is wrong I don't want to be right.


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## Influential

I read it. And the other thread. Sry I'll just move on.


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## Deleted member 24782

Influential said:


> This all confuses me soooo much. I'm sorry. I hope no offence. I guess I'm just grossly uneducated.



IGNORANCE IS BLISS BABY


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## Barf

My wife's childhood friend came to visit a few summers ago. We drove to WA to score some premo bud. After getting nicely baked we went to our favorite vegan restaurant to get some grub. I called the waiter sir and after they went to put our order in my lady and her friend said that it was probably a female transitioning to male. 

I felt like an idiot after that. The server was nice enough about it and I'm pretty sure they liked that I called them sir. 

The point I'm trying to make is when in doubt should one use they instead of he/she?

I'm no stranger to queers/trans people. I was an avid cross dresser in my twenties, but kinda grew out of it. The whole issue is still a bit of a head scratcher for me. 

I know there is a difference between sexuality/gender identity, but they are both such a gray area. 

Meh, I don't even know the point I'm trying to make anymore.

@EmmaAintDead thank you for taking the time to put all this info out there.



Strangeandsolo said:


> I'm not really "woke" or cultured but feel good manners help us express humanity.



^^^^^^^ This, totally agree.


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## EmmaAintDead

Influential said:


> I read it. And the other thread. Sry I'll just move on.


Honestly, what's confusing? The way I write is really backwards to some people, I get that, so maybe it's just something I can rephrase or try another route on? I'd really like to foster understanding moreso than just let people be confused.


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## benton

I prefer not to be referred to as "cis," although if you do, I won't be offended because I don't think being offended is a thing.


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## Deleted member 24782

benton said:


> I prefer not to be referred to as "cis," although if you do, I won't be offended because I don't think being offended is a thing.



OH I figured it out thats where the word "cissy" comes from.


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## benton

Brodiesel710 said:


> OH I figured it out thats where the word "cissy" comes from.


I'm not sure what you mean. When I was being socialized, "sissy" in reference to a male was considered derogatory (and perhaps it still is). That was way before the current discussions of gender were under way.


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## Deleted member 24782

benton said:


> I'm not sure what you mean. When I was being socialized, "sissy" in reference to a male was considered derogatory (and perhaps it still is). That was way before the current discussions of gender were under way.



I was being sarcastic. Cis reminded me of sissy, doubt there is any correlation between the two. If necessary, I would identify as a cis male, but the term doesn't bother me at all.


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## CouchPunx

Influential said:


> I read it. And the other thread. Sry I'll just move on.



Sounds like you dont have any trans friends. Once you do you'll be like "oh, shit that was all really important and i shoulda listened" not just out of respect but because motherfuckers are fucking evil to trans people, sometimes out of ignorance but either way its your job to be awesome in response


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## Lotus Shaped Potato

Didn’t read your entire thing because a lot of it seems to be addressing cis people and I’m tired and at work. I will say that I use they/them and have for years now.

Misgendering, past a certain point (like not being told) does cause pain, the same way being called slurs is painful. I like this one analogy where Misgendering is like having bricks put in your backpack, the more it happens the heavier everything feels and the worse life becomes.

If someone Misgenders me continuously I will just stop associating with them because why would I form friendship with someone who doesn’t respect me enough to make the effort to address me as who I am?

Imagine if everytime you walked into a store someone called you a faggot, just casually and without care. Then when you tried to explain not to do that because it hurts they throw their hands up and say “i’ve always called you people fags! Jeeze just let go of it! Get used to it! No one is EVER gunna change is!” And other excuses. On some level I think we can all see how this creates pain.

No one likes being seen as someone or something they’re not.


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## benton

Lotus Shaped Potato said:


> No one likes being seen as someone or something they’re not.


which is exactly why I prefer not to be referred to as "cis" because it is a term that does not accurately describe me.

My research indicates that "cis" is a Latin prefix that translates as "on the near side of; on this side of."

I don't see what that has to do with me, an American speaker of English on Planet Earth in the year 2019.


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## Deleted member 24782

benton said:


> which is exactly why I prefer not to be referred to as "cis" because it is a term that does not accurately describe me.
> 
> My research indicates that "cis" is a Latin prefix that translates as "on the near side of; on this side of."
> 
> I don't see what that has to do with me, an American speaker of English on Planet Earth in the year 2019.



Cis is shorthand, and one of many words spewing out of the academic world as we build non gender binary sports teams of the future. 

I'd like to believe there is only HUMANITY and SEXUALITY. Doesn't it seem like everything else is just splitting hairs?


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## Older Than Dirt

After some hesitation, and knowing i may well be banned for posting this, here is what i think: politeness demand we refer to those we are close to in ways that will make them happy. So does self-interest- if we piss off those we like, we will be lonely. 

But- the demand that folks "correctly gender" others is a step backwards in gender freedom, and anti-feminist.

There's been decades of efforts by feminists to develop forms of language that de-emphasize gender, and the constant recitation of gender in conversation, through use of gender-neutral pronouns among other things. This is rooted in an effort to overcome sexism and misogyny, just like gender-neutral bathrooms. 

Note that this struggle has been successful in eliminating the routine recital of a female's marriage/ownership status (through use of "Miss" or "Mrs." before their name) in my lifetime.

In this view, gender is seen as a socially-constructed performance, not an innate identity.
Gender is de-emphasized out of a recognition that traditional gender roles have had very bad consequences for persons with female reproductive organs.

Use of singular "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun comes out of a desire to de-emphasize the gender binary, but can conflict with the neo-binary gender performances of trans folks.

"Misgendering" a person is seen as disrespectful, with use of [would-be neutral] "they" sometimes considered to be misgendering since it seeks neutrality rather than determining the gender identity of the person spoken about, and affirming it through pronoun usage.

Note that English pronouns only are gendered when speaking about individual third parties- "I" and "you" are not gendered, nor are plural references to third parties.

So we have folks trying to be polite and PC by using gender-neutral pronouns getting told off for doing so. But why do we need to relate to people through determining and reciting their gender? How is this progressive?


----------



## roughdraft

i like the analogy of a name and Richard/Rick/Dick for example and being considerate enough to call Rick his preferred name... or I will add, for instance, if Margaret identifies more as Molly, or Maggie

it actually suits me - my name is Stuart, I used to go by Stu and some people I used to know who I run into still call me that, or new friends choose to call me that from their own volition as well. I much prefer Stuart these days for certain reasons, but I'll generally take either, because I think they both apply to me.

One thing I have been called that somewhat offends me (at my worst) is Stuey/Stewie....I don't identify as fuckin Stuey.... but (at my best) i"m not going to make it an issue because what is that worth?

Anyway, I know in my heart and in my experience I've been nothing but good to the transgender, nonbinary and/or queer people I've spent time with, and that I am not actively living the life of a *bigot* for fux sake - I just have to say, it *seems* to me a downward spiral to make *i am she/he not they* such an issue, to be a hardass about it - and the recent fallout between wellknown forum users here looks to be only evidence to that.

Then again, it takes two to tango... 'call me Stuart' and you keep callin me Stu yeah I'll prolly think yr a douchebag....

the question is who would be the bigger douche....?


----------



## Older Than Dirt

I have now googled Comrade @Juan Derlust 's joke and am now unconfused.

To save others doing so, the punchline: "Stew".


----------



## benton

Brodiesel710 said:


> Cis is shorthand,


what is it shorthand for, exactly?


----------



## croc

Preface: I am a trans man who has had no physical transition, and may never physically transition. My face is naturally kind of andro or masc but I don't bind my chest often or even wear bras often, my chest is usually visible, my voice is high, sometimes I wear feminine clothes, I allow myself to be as feminine as I want bc I don't think it makes me any less of a man. (@Engineer J Lupo I am that 1 in 10 trans guy who doesn't think their tits have shit to do with me being a man haha) As a result, I'm misgendered veeeery often. But thank fuck it doesn't usually bother me anymore unless it is someone I care about or have to work with/live with. 



Older Than Dirt said:


> But- the demand that folks "correctly gender" others is a step backwards in gender freedom, and anti-feminist.
> 
> There's been decades of efforts by feminists to develop forms of language that de-emphasize gender, and the constant recitation of gender in conversation, through use of gender-neutral pronouns among other things. This is rooted in an effort to overcome sexism and misogyny, just like gender-neutral bathrooms.
> 
> Note that this struggle has been successful in eliminating the routine recital of a female's marriage/ownership status (through use of "Miss" or "Mrs." before their name) in my lifetime.
> 
> In this view, gender is seen as a socially-constructed performance, not an innate identity.
> Gender is de-emphasized out of a recognition that traditional gender roles have had very bad consequences for persons with female reproductive organs.
> 
> Use of singular "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun comes out of a desire to de-emphasize the gender binary, but can conflict with the neo-binary gender performances of trans folks.
> 
> "Misgendering" a person is seen as disrespectful, with use of [would-be neutral] "they" sometimes considered to be misgendering since it seeks neutrality rather than determining the gender identity of the person spoken about, and affirming it through pronoun usage.
> 
> Note that English pronouns only are gendered when speaking about individual third parties- "I" and "you" are not gendered, nor are plural references to third parties.
> 
> So we have folks trying to be polite and PC by using gender-neutral pronouns getting told off for doing so. But why do we need to relate to people through determining and reciting their gender? How is this progressive?



Okay, starting with asking that people use gendered pronouns being "anti-feminist".... 
Well plenty of the "feminist" movement(s?) has been and continues to be trans exclusionary. Pussy riot shit where "feminism" is all focused on anatomy, and the fact that trans women have and very much continue to be seen as outsider men trying to invade a REAL women's space. 
And so many "feminists" are ready as all hell to try to silence trans men or other trans afab people. As if us not identifying as women somehow changes the way we're still treated on a day to day basis by the general public perceiving us as women. 

And maybe some people's feminism includes removing the construct of gender from themselves, but I don't think that's even most femmes?? (for context I do group myself with the word "femmes" bc I'm so often perceived as feminine and I experience the struggles that come with being perceived as feminine or a "woman" ). Like, sure, taking away societal expectations from genders (ie gender roles) is a key part of feminism. But taking away gender? Not any modern day feminism I've seen. 

I think it's not about removing gender/making things neutral, but instead about saying "my gender is part of me, but does not define me or determine my capabilities". 

Even as a binary trans person, I think gender is a fucking scam and dumb and made up. But yet... I still feel this way. I still identify as a man rather than neutral. If I could flip a switch and not feel this way, I would in a heart beat. But this isn't something I choose or can change. Being trans is never something I enjoy. Ever. It honestly fucking sucks. And I'm sorry if that brings other trans people down but god damn do I feel like I just need to scream about how THIS FUCKING SUCKS AND I HATE IT. I HATE THIS SO DAMN MUCH. 
So if other people could have the compassion to make this often shitty, stressful experience a little more comfortable for us by just calling us "he/she/they" it would mean so damn much to a lot of us. 

If what ur saying, not just in this comment but previous ones too, is that ur not interested in being told someone's pronouns are different than u expected and then being expected to apply that new knowledge then u may actually and truly be older than dirt lol (read with light tone). 

Say u meet someone who looks white to u. Say for some reason in conversation u call them white and they tell u that they're actually black and happen to be light skinned. Wouldn't calling them white still or maneuvering around calling them black as a way to avoid the subject be like. Weird and rude? I think so. 

"But why do we need to relate to people through determining and reciting their gender? How is this progressive?" 

I imagine u do it with cis people, call them he or she, I mean. So why not us too? It's understandable there's a learning curve. But is having to learn about people a reason to avoid getting on the same page? 
It's progressive bc respecting people's uniqueness is a progressive concept in my book. People are more free to express themselves now than ever, more free to be their authentic selves. And that's fucking beautiful so let's keep the ball rolling. Let's keep supporting ppl being who they really are, whether we understand them or see them the way they see themselves or not. 

And I don't think I personally know any trans ppl who want their gender to be the focus of who they are. I certainly don't like emphasis being put on mine. I'm a man, a trans man but that has so much less to do with who I am than the words "artist" or "traveler" or "ass enthusiast". I don't think we as a group want it recited and paid a bunch of attention to like that. 


And to wrap this shit up, I fucking hate when trans people yell at others for not already being educated/not knowing someone's pronouns off the bat and misgendering them/not being hip to the jargon yet etc etc*

It furthers people from our cause and turns them away. Directly making every trans person's life harder. Obviously if they're being fucking rude and refusing to care or learn, yell at em sure. Fuck em. But at the end of the day, we were ALL raised with the teachings of "men look and sound like x y z" and "women look and sound like x y z" and that's all there is. 

We ALL have had to learn otherwise to be able to adjust our language and mindsets. Trans people included. 

*I know ignorance was not the case in the thread that lead to this thread. I just mean in general, not that situation. 


Okay I lied. One more thing. 
While corn got pissed at Matt using "they" for a woman who prefers "she", I have heard Matt call this girl "she" before multiple times too. It's not been exclusively "they" and total avoidance for "she". And when this girl first came out n Matt wasn't used to the pronoun shift, if I heard it and needed to correct him about calling her "she", he immediately complied every time. "Right, she." 

It does take time for people to learn. If there's true effort being put forth, I'm down to give that person patience. But if someone is not willing to give that patience bc it's damaging to them to stick around for the process, that's valid too.


----------



## croc

Okay, Jesus christ sorry yall but one more thing. 

@Older Than Dirt i think deciding if something is feminist or not is like deciding if something is punk or not. Very very very subjective terms that can have entirely different meanings to each person. 

Someone might think making things gender neutral is "feminism" like someone might think burning down a landlord's house is "punk". 
My ideas of feminism and punk are way different than either of those but yet I'd still associate with both terms.


----------



## WyldLyfe

ScarletMountain said:


> Throughout the ages it seems that people have struggled with & sought after the questions pondered by our ancestors.
> Gender confusion is a delusional subconscious programming being at its inner core , a deep seeded lack of acceptance of oneself & how one was created out from the womb
> It’s believed that our essence or soul is comprised of two vital energies, one would call “male” other “female”
> Each containing its own correspondences & traits. The idea is by meeting both energies in a balanced trajectory, the “male” & “female” energies unite in complimentary progress of evolutionary form, & bring the soul to zero point
> Or what buddha called the middle path
> 
> It is when one has not begun to reach union of one’s own male an female energies inside that one strays too far left or right & looses touch with half of one’s “forces” ultimately resulting in disharmony with oneself & creation
> 
> How u perceive is based on what’s going on in your subconscious
> 
> It has nothing to do with the other person . In fact, that other person is acting as a mirror to what’s going on inside yourself. It’s up to u if u want to extract from & take what the situation is trying to tell u
> 
> The point fingers are getting @ is, this to me sounds like the same underlying issue people have when others use the wrong pronoun
> If at its core, gender confusion stems from unacceptance of oneself , then how can one get upset at others when they are simply mirroring that person’s deep subconscious program
> Kinda how most people won’t help people who don’t help themselves
> 
> it’s yours & only your decision to react to these situations. U can choose to observe it,not give a fuck what people say or think or you can be the opposite & let others control how U feel
> Look we all have things going on, & I don’t care what anyone chooses to identify as long as u happy ..but laws of nature don’t change becuz one wants them to..all the disguises an hormones serve as escapist realities of the lost soul



Surprised someone else here decided to talk about this, from an energy perspective, every one regardless if your male or female has both masculine and feminine qualities and its about coming into harmony with the two, the mind and the heart, becoming a balanced human being.

The neocortex of the brain has two hemispheres. The left brain hemisphere largely facilitates logical and scientific though, while the right brain hemisphere largely facilitates creativity and compassion. When both hemispheres are in balance, the neocortex acts in it's proper role as the executive command centre of the human brain and true intelligence (intellect + creativity) is born.
Intellect, Solar (masculine) logic, analytical thought, science and math.
Intuition, Luna (Feminine) creativity, holistic thought, compassion.
Intellect (masculine) can lead to: rigid scepticism, scientism, atheism, solipsism, moral realitivism, social darwinism, eugenics, authoritarianism.
If this part of the brain is chronically dominant.
Intuition (feminine) can lead to: Naivete, blind belief, religious extremism, solipsism, unworthiness, self loathing, order follower, willing slave.
If this part of the brain is chronically dominant.​
ScarletMountain also agree with what you said about this is an issue about the person not liking themselves the way they are born male or female, if someone doesn't like the way they are and then start to mutilate themselves to feel better, is this not a disharmony in the mind? people get locked up for that. They say trans people have a high suicide rate, some say its because they are bullied, but black people often say they are bullied too there is a lot more of them and they commit suicide much less, so it can't be about bullying, like yes that is part of it but someone with mental illness is more likely to hurt themselves if they are bullied a lot, then someone who doesn't.

And im not a hater, im just discussing here, I have a trans cousin.. who I visit every now an then, ultimately people can do what they want with themselves, but once they start telling others how to talk around them an try impose there will on another, they have no right. Some kid came up to me the other day asking me to play soccer with him an his mate, was like nah thanks man.. he asked me three more times then said "why not? are you a faggot?" I looked at him an aggressively said "Fuck off kid!" an he shit himself an walked off.. sorry people but in the real world.. not every one is just gonna cater to you an your choices, and you need to stand up for yourself, be strong don't put yourself in a victim mentality, life can be fucking hardcore, work through it to the best of your ability, and never give up.

​


----------



## feralautistic

the sheer bullshit in this thread....



Older Than Dirt said:


> So we have folks trying to be polite and PC by using gender-neutral pronouns getting told off for doing so. But why do we need to relate to people through determining and reciting their gender? How is this progressive?



if you're not willing to refer to trans people in the (gendered) way they want to be referred to, all you're doing is hurting them. you're not being gender-neutral, you're just ignoring someone's agency.

gender is nearly impossible to escape. i have never met a single person who doesn't use gender in relating to others. basically *every* social interaction is affected in some way by gender, especially interactions between strangers but close relationships as well. cis people tend not to notice this because they don't have any point of comparison. many trans people, myself included, would love to exist in a world without gender. but that's not an option. our options are being treated as a man, a woman, or a subhuman freak.

seriously, can cis people please shut the fuck up about being trans? because you don't get it, it's embarrassing for everyone. every damn new ager with some theory about "energies" and debunked pop neurology thinks they know how trans people work and you all know NOTHING.



WyldLyfe said:


> ScarletMountain also agree with what you said about this is an issue about the person not liking themselves the way they are born male or female, if someone doesn't like the way they are and then start to mutilate themselves to feel better, is this not a disharmony in the mind? people get locked up for that. They say trans people have a high suicide rate, some say its because they are bullied, but black people often say they are bullied too there is a lot more of them and they commit suicide much less, so it can't be about bullying, like yes that is part of it but someone with mental illness is more likely to hurt themselves if they are bullied a lot, then someone who doesn't.



........ i'm not even going to touch your ridiculous worldview but if you're going to form opinions based on suicide statistics, why don't you look for what being isolated does to people? being trans will rip your support network away like almost nothing else. you start to expect that at least half the people you encounter in every situation are hostile to your existence. even the ones who aren't will turn on you if you act too much like yourself. you learn not to trust anyone apart from other trans people. and you most likely have trauma at this point, along with everyone you *can* trust, so even the support you do have is fucked up from that. 

but nah, it's probably just that trans people are mentally ill for breaking social norms and not adhering to whatever the fuck you said about gender energies. 



ScarletMountain said:


> Throughout the ages it seems that people have struggled with & sought after the questions pondered by our ancestors.
> Gender confusion is a delusional subconscious programming being at its inner core , a deep seeded lack of acceptance of oneself & how one was created out from the womb
> It’s believed that our essence or soul is comprised of two vital energies, one would call “male” other “female”
> Each containing its own correspondences & traits. The idea is by meeting both energies in a balanced trajectory, the “male” & “female” energies unite in complimentary progress of evolutionary form, & bring the soul to zero point
> Or what buddha called the middle path
> 
> It is when one has not begun to reach union of one’s own male an female energies inside that one strays too far left or right & looses touch with half of one’s “forces” ultimately resulting in disharmony with oneself & creation



just. what the fuck. bonus points for mentioning the buddha in the middle of that. i wonder if you read some buddhism and profoundly misinterpreted it, or you just never bothered to.....

anyway if there were male and female essences balanced within us, wouldn't trans people be in the best position to understand them? because, yknow, we're the ones who've experienced being treated as more than one of them. 

whew. this was a good thread idea. but i'm gonna link to this every time i need to make the point that cis people nearly always fail to be good about trans stuff. even the cis people who are alright. i've been lurking on this site for a while and it really drives home the thought that if a space isn't just queer, it's not going to be queer-friendly.


----------



## feralautistic

Juan Derlust said:


> Do you hope to help foster any understanding by operating in queer-only spaces or should we just maintain some kind of at-odds factionalism?



i don't give a shit about understanding if the goal isn't making queer people safer. if i'm going to be somewhere i'll do my best to make it an okay place to exist, and that includes spreading understanding. but it's more about understanding who's a shithead and avoiding them than convincing them i deserve to exist


----------



## roughdraft

feralautistic said:


> you start to expect that at least half the people you encounter in every situation are hostile to your existence. even the ones who aren't will turn on you if you act too much like yourself. you learn not to trust anyone [...]



i just want to point out that (I believe) this is something that tons of people (possibly everyone) unfortunately experience regardless of their being trans, queer, cisgendered or otherwise. At least I can say for myself it's a burden in my life and has been a huge painful burden for a long time


----------



## Deleted member 24782

croc said:


> Preface: I am a trans man who has had no physical transition, and may never physically transition. My face is naturally kind of andro or masc but I don't bind my chest often or even wear bras often, my chest is usually visible, my voice is high, sometimes I wear feminine clothes, I allow myself to be as feminine as I want bc I don't think it makes me any less of a man. (@Engineer J Lupo I am that 1 in 10 trans guy who doesn't think their tits have shit to do with me being a man haha) As a result, I'm misgendered veeeery often. But thank fuck it doesn't usually bother me anymore unless it is someone I care about or have to work with/live with.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, starting with asking that people use gendered pronouns being "anti-feminist"....
> Well plenty of the "feminist" movement(s?) has been and continues to be trans exclusionary. Pussy riot shit where "feminism" is all focused on anatomy, and the fact that trans women have and very much continue to be seen as outsider men trying to invade a REAL women's space.
> And so many "feminists" are ready as all hell to try to silence trans men or other trans afab people. As if us not identifying as women somehow changes the way we're still treated on a day to day basis by the general public perceiving us as women.
> 
> And maybe some people's feminism includes removing the construct of gender from themselves, but I don't think that's even most femmes?? (for context I do group myself with the word "femmes" bc I'm so often perceived as feminine and I experience the struggles that come with being perceived as feminine or a "woman" ). Like, sure, taking away societal expectations from genders (ie gender roles) is a key part of feminism. But taking away gender? Not any modern day feminism I've seen.
> 
> I think it's not about removing gender/making things neutral, but instead about saying "my gender is part of me, but does not define me or determine my capabilities".
> 
> Even as a binary trans person, I think gender is a fucking scam and dumb and made up. But yet... I still feel this way. I still identify as a man rather than neutral. If I could flip a switch and not feel this way, I would in a heart beat. But this isn't something I choose or can change. Being trans is never something I enjoy. Ever. It honestly fucking sucks. And I'm sorry if that brings other trans people down but god damn do I feel like I just need to scream about how THIS FUCKING SUCKS AND I HATE IT. I HATE THIS SO DAMN MUCH.
> So if other people could have the compassion to make this often shitty, stressful experience a little more comfortable for us by just calling us "he/she/they" it would mean so damn much to a lot of us.
> 
> If what ur saying, not just in this comment but previous ones too, is that ur not interested in being told someone's pronouns are different than u expected and then being expected to apply that new knowledge then u may actually and truly be older than dirt lol (read with light tone).
> 
> Say u meet someone who looks white to u. Say for some reason in conversation u call them white and they tell u that they're actually black and happen to be light skinned. Wouldn't calling them white still or maneuvering around calling them black as a way to avoid the subject be like. Weird and rude? I think so.
> 
> "But why do we need to relate to people through determining and reciting their gender? How is this progressive?"
> 
> I imagine u do it with cis people, call them he or she, I mean. So why not us too? It's understandable there's a learning curve. But is having to learn about people a reason to avoid getting on the same page?
> It's progressive bc respecting people's uniqueness is a progressive concept in my book. People are more free to express themselves now than ever, more free to be their authentic selves. And that's fucking beautiful so let's keep the ball rolling. Let's keep supporting ppl being who they really are, whether we understand them or see them the way they see themselves or not.
> 
> And I don't think I personally know any trans ppl who want their gender to be the focus of who they are. I certainly don't like emphasis being put on mine. I'm a man, a trans man but that has so much less to do with who I am than the words "artist" or "traveler" or "ass enthusiast". I don't think we as a group want it recited and paid a bunch of attention to like that.
> 
> 
> And to wrap this shit up, I fucking hate when trans people yell at others for not already being educated/not knowing someone's pronouns off the bat and misgendering them/not being hip to the jargon yet etc etc*
> 
> It furthers people from our cause and turns them away. Directly making every trans person's life harder. Obviously if they're being fucking rude and refusing to care or learn, yell at em sure. Fuck em. But at the end of the day, we were ALL raised with the teachings of "men look and sound like x y z" and "women look and sound like x y z" and that's all there is.
> 
> We ALL have had to learn otherwise to be able to adjust our language and mindsets. Trans people included.
> 
> *I know ignorance was not the case in the thread that lead to this thread. I just mean in general, not that situation.
> 
> 
> Okay I lied. One more thing.
> While corn got pissed at Matt using "they" for a woman who prefers "she", I have heard Matt call this girl "she" before multiple times too. It's not been exclusively "they" and total avoidance for "she". And when this girl first came out n Matt wasn't used to the pronoun shift, if I heard it and needed to correct him about calling her "she", he immediately complied every time. "Right, she."
> 
> It does take time for people to learn. If there's true effort being put forth, I'm down to give that person patience. But if someone is not willing to give that patience bc it's damaging to them to stick around for the process, that's valid too.



Good insights, I would prefer to be called an "ass enthusiast" than a man.


----------



## croc

Well, u ain't gonna find this tasteful but I'm gonna start by having to let u know ppl like u are the reason I hate hippies @ScarletMountain i have been preached to by countless hippies, especially hippie men, about how trans people are ill or confused. How there is male and female. And Jesus are u a fucking idiot and an asshole. But I'll do u the honor of breaking down why. 


ScarletMountain said:


> If at its core, gender confusion stems from unacceptance of oneself , then how can one get upset at others when they are simply mirroring that person’s deep subconscious program
> Kinda how most people won’t help people who don’t help themselves


 Girl, who said we were confused??? 
If u really think people are programmed to be either male or female, I've got some swell news for u. There are studies done on the brain that show binary trans people having a brain that more reflects their gender identity rather than their sex. 
Speaking of helping one's self, u should help urself through some google searches for what the fuck you're talking about bc u are very very uneducated about trans people from TRANS people's experiences and perspectives. What ur saying is cis rhetoric that I'm tired of even entertaining enough to have a conversation about. And I'm a patient ass bitch so that's saying something. 



ScarletMountain said:


> Gender confusion is a delusional subconscious programming being at its inner core , a deep seeded lack of acceptance of oneself & how one was created out from the womb


Trans people are not confused. We CLEARLY state to yall how we feel and who we are. YALL are the ones confused about US. The whole concept of being trans is self acceptance. "I am not what I was taught that I am supposed to be". 

So do not impose your confusion on us please.

I think you're delusional for thinking u know an entire group of people you've never met better than we know ourselves. 

Personally, I accept myself fully. I'm a faggot with tits and a vagina who wears crop tops and boxer briefs and has hairy limbs and crevices and loves getting dirty and working hard and being active and doing people's make up. I am very secure in who I am and plenty of other trans people are too. 



WyldLyfe said:


> ScarletMountain also agree with what you said about this is an issue about the person not liking themselves the way they are born male or female, if someone doesn't like the way they are and then start to mutilate themselves to feel better, is this not a disharmony in the mind? people get locked up for that. They say trans people have a high suicide rate, some say its because they are bullied, but black people often say they are bullied too there is a lot more of them and they commit suicide much less, so it can't be about bullying, like yes that is part of it but someone with mental illness is more likely to hurt themselves if they are bullied a lot, then someone who doesn't.


Not just bc we are bullied, but because we are denied and belittled (read your own words for a direct example) by many people very regularly. Also, check the suicide rates for trans black people (yeah, those groups do overlap....) 
A black person isn't gonna get kicked out of their home if they tell their parents that they're black but it happens to trans people all the time. Black people aren't called mentally ill for being black, something they did not choose in the first place (wow kinda like being trans whoaaa wild). 
Have u considered that yall denying trans people's identities and calling us ill has uhhh idk A LOT to do with why our suicide rates are high??? 
My mom and I never had a phenonimal relationship but after I came out to her she would not answer my calls or texts for a year. That doesn't happen to black people for being black. Apples and oranges. The person who u lived inside of, who was the first to hold u in this world, who is supposed to love and care for u unconditionally cutting off contact with u bc they don't agree with or like who u KNOW u are... That's the kind of shit that makes people kill themselves. 

Lots (not all) of trans people change their bodies moreso to make their lives easier than just straight up "this is how I want to look for me". The times I greatly consider going on hormones, the times I decide to bind my chest or fake a deep voice when I'm walking around somewhere dangerous alone at night. Those are all motivated by being UNSAFE around cis people who think my gender or anatomy determines how they should treat me, whether or not they should have decent repesect for me, or whether or not they should attack or rape me. 
I don't dislike my body for what it is, I dislike how people treat me BECAUSE OF my body and what THEY think my body means. 
See, we can change our bodies much easier than we can change society at large. And when it's adapt or be treated like shit regularly... most people are gonna go with option A.

This is incredibly relatable to me and describes parts of being trans a lot of people don't consider:


On the note of transition being "mutilation": As someone covered in self harm scars, I assure u there is a very large difference between me having mutilated my body out of intense mental illness and someone altering their body to feel more at home in it. 
Tattoos, piercings, stretched piercings, nose jobs, make up, permanent make up, building muscle intentionally, dyed hair, hair removal: these are all body modifications that people do so that they like their body more or they feel like it expresses their inner self more than their natal body does OR makes their life easier bc of how ppl will treat them based on how they look. Transitioning is that. 



WyldLyfe said:


> Some kid came up to me the other day asking me to play soccer with him an his mate, was like nah thanks man.. he asked me three more times then said "why not? are you a faggot?" I looked at him an aggressively said "Fuck off kid!" an he shit himself an walked off.. sorry people but in the real world.. not every one is just gonna cater to you an your choices, and you need to stand up for yourself, be strong don't put yourself in a victim mentality, life can be fucking hardcore, work through it to the best of your ability, and never give up.


So someone called u a faggot and u didn't want them to do that so when u let them know they were being a fuck ass, they stopped and left and that made ur day better that they didn't call u a faggot more. Maybe... Just maybe.. U now understand why it sucks to be called something u don't identify as or want to be called. And mayyybe u can apply that firsthand experience and not do it to trans people. 



roughdraft said:


> i just want to point out that (I believe) this is something that tons of people (possibly everyone) unfortunately experience regardless of their being trans, queer, cisgendered or otherwise. At least I can say for myself it's a burden in my life and has been a huge painful burden for a long time


Sadly yes, just at much higher rates for trans and queer ppl.


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## croc

Gonna quote some highlights of this video bc I doubt many people will watch it thru


"... my own body feels more like a guillotine than a gift. Sometimes people ask me when I knew I was transgender. They ask me if I feel like I was born in the wrong body. As if gender is that simple. As if my body is a pair of handcuffs chaining me to housewife, to mother, to woman.* I am not trapped in my body. I am trapped in other people's perceptions of my body*."

"I tell myself that top surgery is expensive; it's dangerous, the backaches from binding aren't really all that bad. Besides, I love boobs on other people; why can't I just love my own? But when I tell people my name, they still use the wrong one. I say "not girl," and they give me back "woman, lady, she." I say "not woman," they say "silly girl, it is not up to you to decide." *And I don't want to hate my body for this. My body is not wrong. The way people talk about my body is wrong. But my body is the only thing I can change*."

"My best friend asks me why I want top surgery, a voluntary double mastectomy. He asks me why I would want to cut off a perfectly Healthy body part.I tell him it is not Healthy to feel unsafe in my body. This chest feels like a misplaced sex organ. If you had a penis growing from your elbow, you'd probably want to cut it off. People would come up to you and talk to you about your elbow penis. *They would never let you be anything more than your body. I am more than my body.."*

"So stop calling me diseased. Stop looking at my body and chaining me to whoever _*you*_ think it makes me. *I was not born into the wrong body. I was born into a world that does not know what my Body means." *


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## croc

And idk if I'm gonna be able to keep replying to this thread bc these are draining conversations that I have at least once a week. I like trying to talk shit out n educate people but it really is a draining topic to go over and over regularly when it so directly affects my day to day life already. 
Hopefully some stuff I said gets through to the people who are confused or maybe were never introduced to some of these perspectives. And maybe my other trans bbys wanna chime in or add onto or even disagree with some stuff I said. 

Thicker skin needs to be built on many trans people (for their own sake) but that is not an excuse for others to not be compassionate enough to change some words around for us or just not associate with us if ur that set against it.


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## Deleted member 24782

I'm a 34 year old straight white man. And god damn it was hard enough just to become that, my transition into manhood started about 5 years ago, right after I got married. I can only image the struggle LGBTQ's have to face, and I support that. 

I was introduced to radical feminist politics and queerness when I was 17. Matter of fact, the banner of this thread is a Crimethinc poster I used to have hanging on my wall. I have observed a lot of interesting behavior since that time, and have participated in a bit myself, including crossdressing. I have only ever ONCE been asked to use correct pronouns. Denver 2003 I was handed a business card by a 16 year old trans person that described the different pronouns that they used, and some other gender insights. There was mention of the ze zir zirs which I never used and they seem to have fallen by the wayside. I say THEY when appropriate, and I have friends that ONLY say THEY when referencing EVERYONE, I don't like it, but I don't think it's bad.

To date, I have been intimate with 2 trannies mtf/ftm, a drag queen, a gay man, and a lesbian. This was most all in my 20's as I spent a lot of time on the streets, traveling, and photographing. I did not really enjoy any of it (well except the lesbian), this was all circumstantial and I have no problems relating to people in new and exciting ways.

My beef with the LGBTQ's doesn't lie within gender identity but the extreme radical political baggage that usually comes along with it. BE GAY - cool, but then you got the anarchism, veganism, un-patriotic, anti-capatilist, hate everything in society mishmash of over bearing naive radical ideologies that mostly always fizzles out in your 30's. I've had confrontations fit to make a whole new season of Portlandia!!! So there we go, you can be a a tranny but, just I still might think your an asshole.


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## Eng JR Lupo RV323

Just wanted to throw a short story in here.

1983 was the year I first met a transperson. I was 8 years old, he was probably 7(or 8 and a little bit smaller than me). His name was Johnny, he lived in the same apartment complex as me and we became fast friends. We both shared an interest in bikes and we'd ride all over that complex until it was time to go in at sundown. I made other friends there but Johnny and I were tighter, we liked the same shit.

Johnny and I both had older sisters by a couple years and our older sisters ended up becoming acquaintances or friends, I'm not really sure how close they were but they talked. One day I was telling my mom something or other about what Johnny and I had been doing or wanted to do.. it could have been a story who knows but my sister overheard the conversation and chimed in;

"You know he's a girl, right? Johnny, your friend. He's a girl. His sister told me so. She said he's just more comfortable as a boy so he dresses like one and chose that name" This was extremely confusing to me as a child. I felt betrayed, because girls were still gross at that age right. I didn't know how to process it, so I just didn't.

I completely wrote him off. I no longer would go to his door and ask if he could come out to play, I just stayed inside my apartment for a while, it kind of felt like I went through a stint of depression. I remember his family moving away maybe a couple months after that and I regretted my actions. I missed my friend and I wished I had reacted differently to what my sister told me.

Once he was gone I realized I didn't care at all about whether or not he was a boy or a girl, he was my friend and I was the one who betrayed him. I felt like shit and though I don't think about it every day of my life.. when I do remember Johnny still to this day I feel like a piece of shit and I kinda wish he'd see something I've written(either on Reddit or here now) about it one day and reach out to me, maybe we could go ride bikes or something. Maybe he'd forgive me.

That boy taught me about transphobia at an extremely young age and in an era it wasn't very common. I am forever grateful for that lesson, it's definitely had some type of impact on my being able to process my eldest son coming out as a transboy. In fact I remember observing my eldest at a young age and noticing he had a lot of Johnny-like characteristics. Never the princess, when he'd play video games he'd always choose male characters and also create male characters to represent himself in online communities.

Oh this reminds me of another time I felt like a huge piece of shit. I remember my youngest son coming and telling on "Noelle" at that time. He said "Noelle is lying to girls on little big planet and telling them she's a boy irl". They were like 12 and 11 years old. I sat down with Noelle(who's Elliot now) and explained "Listen, you can't lie to people like that. If that person starts liking you or whatever, you're basically catfishing them. You gotta be real with people, don't mislead them"

It never dawned on me that this was his first attempt at coming out as a transboy, not until he came out years later. My ex wife and I went together(long after divorcing) to a couple therapy sessions with Elliot when this was all new stuff and in the process of talking about how we felt I was recalling back to when he was young and explaining to the therapist that he's always seemed more like a boy, and about the male video game characters. And then it just hit me like a ton of bricks, I was like oh my god what a terrible piece of shit I am. You were trying to address this then and I didn't get it, I'm so fucking sorry.

Ok this wasn't as short as I intended but I just wanted to address these topics because I believe the whole "mental illness theory" is horseshit. Both Johnny and my son Elliot knew from an extremely young age how they felt about who they were. My son isn't mentally ill and he's not confused. I think if anyone's confused it would be all the people in this thread who've mistakenly identified as psychologists. That might be a mental illness, idk.


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## Deleted member 125

WyldLyfe said:


> Surprised someone else here decided to talk about this, from an energy perspective, every one regardless if your male or female has both masculine and feminine qualities and its about coming into harmony with the two, the mind and the heart, becoming a balanced human being.
> 
> The neocortex of the brain has two hemispheres. The left brain hemisphere largely facilitates logical and scientific though, while the right brain hemisphere largely facilitates creativity and compassion. When both hemispheres are in balance, the neocortex acts in it's proper role as the executive command centre of the human brain and true intelligence (intellect + creativity) is born.
> Intellect, Solar (masculine) logic, analytical thought, science and math.
> Intuition, Luna (Feminine) creativity, holistic thought, compassion.
> Intellect (masculine) can lead to: rigid scepticism, scientism, atheism, solipsism, moral realitivism, social darwinism, eugenics, authoritarianism.
> If this part of the brain is chronically dominant.
> Intuition (feminine) can lead to: Naivete, blind belief, religious extremism, solipsism, unworthiness, self loathing, order follower, willing slave.
> If this part of the brain is chronically dominant.​
> ScarletMountain also agree with what you said about this is an issue about the person not liking themselves the way they are born male or female, if someone doesn't like the way they are and then start to mutilate themselves to feel better, is this not a disharmony in the mind? people get locked up for that. They say trans people have a high suicide rate, some say its because they are bullied, but black people often say they are bullied too there is a lot more of them and they commit suicide much less, so it can't be about bullying, like yes that is part of it but someone with mental illness is more likely to hurt themselves if they are bullied a lot, then someone who doesn't.
> 
> And im not a hater, im just discussing here, I have a trans cousin.. who I visit every now an then, ultimately people can do what they want with themselves, but once they start telling others how to talk around them an try impose there will on another, they have no right. Some kid came up to me the other day asking me to play soccer with him an his mate, was like nah thanks man.. he asked me three more times then said "why not? are you a faggot?" I looked at him an aggressively said "Fuck off kid!" an he shit himself an walked off.. sorry people but in the real world.. not every one is just gonna cater to you an your choices, and you need to stand up for yourself, be strong don't put yourself in a victim mentality, life can be fucking hardcore, work through it to the best of your ability, and never give up.
> ​



I read yer post twice, I'm admittedly not a smart person, but da fuq? Seriously? Can we keep the pseudo hippy "rub some wheatgrass on it and it'll be fine" stuff out of this thread? I don't think anyone is "trying to impose there will" on you by being trans. It's kinda just somebody asking real nice if you could not be a asshole and you going "nah I'm good".

I don't understand where the person calling you a fag has any relevance to being trans, or yer understanding of trans people's feelings, or really has anything to do with this topic besides you got called a fag and then told someone to fuck off.


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## Deleted member 24782

croc said:


> Gonna quote some highlights of this video bc I doubt many people will watch it thru
> 
> 
> "... my own body feels more like a guillotine than a gift. Sometimes people ask me when I knew I was transgender. They ask me if I feel like I was born in the wrong body. As if gender is that simple. As if my body is a pair of handcuffs chaining me to housewife, to mother, to woman.* I am not trapped in my body. I am trapped in other people's perceptions of my body*."
> 
> "I tell myself that top surgery is expensive; it's dangerous, the backaches from binding aren't really all that bad. Besides, I love boobs on other people; why can't I just love my own? But when I tell people my name, they still use the wrong one. I say "not girl," and they give me back "woman, lady, she." I say "not woman," they say "silly girl, it is not up to you to decide." *And I don't want to hate my body for this. My body is not wrong. The way people talk about my body is wrong. But my body is the only thing I can change*."
> 
> "My best friend asks me why I want top surgery, a voluntary double mastectomy. He asks me why I would want to cut off a perfectly Healthy body part.I tell him it is not Healthy to feel unsafe in my body. This chest feels like a misplaced sex organ. If you had a penis growing from your elbow, you'd probably want to cut it off. People would come up to you and talk to you about your elbow penis. *They would never let you be anything more than your body. I am more than my body.."*
> 
> "So stop calling me diseased. Stop looking at my body and chaining me to whoever _*you*_ think it makes me. *I was not born into the wrong body. I was born into a world that does not know what my Body means." *




OLLIE SCHMINKEY "BOOBS", SO EPIC.


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## feralautistic

@croc you said it... it's exhausting trying to educate at any moment when you're just trying to live. 

just gonna say one more thing, 



Brodiesel710 said:


> To date, I have been intimate with 2 trannies mtf/ftm, a drag queen, a gay man, and a lesbian. This was most all in my 20's as I spent a lot of time on the streets, traveling, and photographing. I did not really enjoy any of it (well except the lesbian), this was all circumstantial and I have no problems relating to people in new and exciting ways.
> 
> My beef with the LGBTQ's doesn't lie within gender identity but the extreme radical political baggage that usually comes along with it. BE GAY - cool, but then you got the anarchism, veganism, un-patriotic, anti-capatilist, hate everything in society mishmash of over bearing naive radical ideologies that mostly always fizzles out in your 30's. I've had confrontations fit to make a whole new season of Portlandia!!! So there we go, you can be a a tranny but, just I still might think your an asshole.



don't fucking call people trannies. it's hard to believe this is the first time you're hearing this, but it's a slur.


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## Eng JR Lupo RV323

Quick reminder;



SlankyLanky said:


> While this thread is meant to be educational for folks I can see some questions being asked that may seem or even be offensive to some people, so please for the love of heritage units let's try to keep this civil and respectful.


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## Deleted member 24782

feralautistic said:


> @croc you said it... it's exhausting trying to educate at any moment when you're just trying to live.
> 
> just gonna say one more thing,
> 
> 
> 
> don't fucking call people trannies. it's hard to believe this is the first time you're hearing this, but it's a slur.



Ok no problem, whats preferred? 

Luckily, I can still use the word when repairing trucks.


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## feralautistic

trans people, or transgender people


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## Beegod Santana

So basically call people what they ask you to but don't wander the earth in crippling fear of misgendering a stranger? I think that's the gist of this thread...


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## Deleted member 24782

@EmmaAintDead, In reference to transgendered people, do you think the word tranny is a slur?


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## blank

Opportunity to virtue signal.


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## benton

feralautistic said:


> if you're not willing to refer to trans people in the (gendered) way they want to be referred to, all you're doing is hurting them. you're not being gender-neutral, you're just ignoring someone's agency.



Feelings are proof of nothing in that they cannot be quantified. I can tell you that I'm imagining a pink elephant, but I cannot prove it to you. You would be taking my word for it. I am not willing to accept that the way I speak or don't speak causes damage by default. The fact is that as a human being alive on planet earth in the year 2019, no other human being has any authority to impose upon me their viewpoints with respect to how I should or should not speak. Perhaps these efforts to dictate my thoughts, speech and behavior affect negative consequences on me. If they do, this is for me to deal with. It is not for me to dictate to you based on an unprovable notion that I am being harmed.

I'm not down with this "All Feelings Are Valid" stuff. I've seen billboards that say this. This cannot possibly be true, and is thus a lie. How do I know its a lie? Because the inverse of this statement is "All thoughts are valid" and this cannot possibly be true.



feralautistic said:


> gender is nearly impossible to escape. i have never met a single person who doesn't use gender in relating to others.


In the olden days, we didn't use gender. We used biological sex. If I filled out a job application, it said "Sex" not "Gender." Like it or not, 99% of all human beings who have ever walked the face of the earth were conceived because a biological male's penis entered a biological woman's vagina and the sperm fertilized the egg, and the baby that was born was either biologically male or biologically female 99% of the time. This is objective fact.



feralautistic said:


> basically *every* social interaction is affected in some way by gender, especially interactions between strangers but close relationships as well. cis people tend not to notice this because they don't have any point of comparison.



Now you are speaking to my experience, which based on my research of these issues, is a "no-no."

These are also opinions, which is okay. I have them too.



feralautistic said:


> many trans people, myself included, would love to exist in a world without gender. but that's not an option. our options are being treated as a man, a woman, or a subhuman freak.



I have preferences with respect to the world around me as well. For example, I would prefer not to be referred to as "cis." However, I do realize that it has happened and will continue to happen and I have almost no power to change it.

As far as being treated as a man, I think this is incorrect. Boys become men through their actions. We can become "less of a man" depending on our behavior. I would assert that this dynamic does not exist for women. "Man up" is a thing. The fact is that there are certain accomplishments and rites of passage to be seen as a man, or at least there used to be. This aspects seem like they are being phased out.

If being a man is something I attained by various means (showing courage, determination, etc.) as I was socialized, and now we are seeing an extended adolescence and increasingly boys are never actually becoming men through their actions even as they age, it is simply not possible for a biological female to claim to be male and be accepted by me and other men as a man. Why? Because when I was doing day labor in Portland and we were roofing and the guy in his 20's quit after a few hours, that's not a man. Maybe he will become one in the future, but on that jobsite he was not accepted by me and the other men on the same level as us, and that has nothing to do with gender in my opinion. Another opinion is that I believe that my experiences as a biological male who identifies as male are being invalidated and demeaned, and this cannot possibly be healthy for our society.



feralautistic said:


> seriously, can cis people please shut the fuck up about being trans? because you don't get it, it's embarrassing for everyone. every damn new ager with some theory about "energies" and debunked pop neurology thinks they know how trans people work and you all know NOTHING.



Once again speaking to my experience. I can do anything a transperson can, and I can do anything a biological female can do other than have children including having strong opinions and not shutting the fuck up. I did not come to the earth with this brain and these ideas to be silent. I've got to deal with ya'll and ya'll have to deal with me. That's just how it is.



feralautistic said:


> ........ i'm not even going to touch your ridiculous worldview but if you're going to form opinions based on suicide statistics, why don't you look for what being isolated does to people? being trans will rip your support network away like almost nothing else. you start to expect that at least half the people you encounter in every situation are hostile to your existence. even the ones who aren't will turn on you if you act too much like yourself. you learn not to trust anyone apart from other trans people. and you most likely have trauma at this point, along with everyone you *can* trust, so even the support you do have is fucked up from that.



"Ridiculous worldview" is an opinion.

I was raised by Jehovah's Witnesses in a literal mind control cult. What I would never even consider doing is expect the people around me to be able to modify their behavior in order to make my journey through the world easier. I believe that would be insane.



feralautistic said:


> but nah, it's probably just that trans people are mentally ill for breaking social norms and not adhering to whatever the fuck you said about gender energies.



People are always going to have opinions and I don't see how you have any right to shame or ridicule them for it. However, you have the free will and power to do so, just like all the shitty people who go out of their way to make life hard for transpeople.




feralautistic said:


> whew. this was a good thread idea. but i'm gonna link to this every time i need to make the point that cis people nearly always fail to be good about trans stuff. even the cis people who are alright. i've been lurking on this site for a while and it really drives home the thought that if a space isn't just queer, it's not going to be queer-friendly.



"Even the cis people who are all right." Wow.. I would NEVER say "Even the transpeople who are all right." How demeaning and insulting. Are you the type of person I am now expected to play nice with?


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## feralautistic

i'm sorry you were offended by my feelings @benton


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## benton

feralautistic said:


> i'm sorry you were offended by my feelings @benton


I am not into feelings. I am into thoughts, ideas, discussion and debate. Occasionally I encounter a worthy adversary in debate, which allows me the opportunity to explore new ideas and sharpen my sword, so to speak.

I would consider my feelings with respect to the ideas, discussion and debate to be besides the point and largely irrelevant.

Let is not forget that feelings are by nature irrational.


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## Muffin Mouth

benton said:


> it is simply not possible for a biological female to claim to be male and be accepted by me and other men as a man.



I love this piece of art and the expansive sentiment in reflects. I think it is possible for you to accept others as they are, and I hope someday you do. 
You say that you value debate, discussion, thoughts and ideas, but you also mention that you only "occasionally" meet a worthy adversary in debate. I know so many people who are intellectually stimulating and I feel sad when I encounter one who is struggling to get beyond the entry level respect necessary to knowing and growing with others.
I am a man, but I sense that what that means to me is a bit different than it is to you. Am I less of a man for walking off a roofing job in the middle of a shift to go home and put on a skirt and gaze upon my beauty in the mirror? You say that feelings can't be quantified, but I sense you have placed some value in how you have quantified how masculine you feel in comparison to how you perceive others. It is admirable that you want to "sharpen my sword, so to speak", but sometimes its also good to stop focusing on how sharp it is and just concentrate on not falling upon it.


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## feralautistic

benton said:


> I am not into feelings. I am into thoughts, ideas, discussion and debate. Occasionally I encounter a worthy adversary in debate, which allows me the opportunity to explore new ideas and sharpen my sword, so to speak.
> 
> I would consider my feelings with respect to the ideas, discussion and debate to be besides the point and largely irrelevant.
> 
> Let is not forget that feelings are by nature irrational.



what does not being into feelings mean? why would you bothing having debates, if you didn't feel some excitement or joy in doing so? or if you want greater knowledge and reason, what purpose does it serve if it doesn't bring you happiness?

we seem to have a difference in values, only you believe yours is objective fact. i'm comfortable being a person with subjective desires and feelings. why should i accept the predominating cultural beliefs when they're against me?


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## Deleted member 125

So, @benton this isn't a debate topic where "phew folks I feel really strongly that store brand tastes the same as Pepsi lets talk about it" topic. It's just not. Yer statements and apparently how you feel are transphobic, fucking straight up (no pun intended). The only reason I'm even considering not just banning you right now is because the purpose of this thread is to educate people like you who may not know any better. Although personally if it's worth the time/trouble is to be seen, so don't be surprised if yer no longer welcome on stp.

Nobody cares about religion as a excuse as to why you think not treating someone with a basic level of decency is ok. That's grasping at straws because come on, if yer religious or spiritual or whatever beliefs keep you from being a decent person you really just arnt.

This isn't just for one user, this is to make it crystal clear that this thread is a place for people to learn, not to argue why they refuse to act like a decent (and I'm really reaching here by saying decent, because if that's too much to ask holy fuck what a prick you must be if you can't comprehend this by now) person.


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## croc

benton said:


> I can do anything a biological female can do other than have children including having strong opinions and not shutting the fuck up.


So uhhh.... Do u uh.... Not think this is sexist as fuck or? 
I've seen u say some pretty fuckin ridiculous and moronic shit before but this might take the cake. 
Btw we def know u understand how to not shut the fuck up, point made. 



benton said:


> In the olden days, we didn't use gender. We used biological sex. If I filled out a job application, it said "Sex" not "Gender." Like it or not, 99% of all human beings who have ever walked the face of the earth were conceived because a biological male's penis entered a biological woman's vagina and the sperm fertilized the egg, and the baby that was born was either biologically male or biologically female 99% of the time. This is objective fact.


There's a thing that happens called "change". Wild concept, I know. 
Do u understand that less than 100 years ago white people still thought black people were animals built for our use, females were too stupid to vote, etc etc etc
These were widely accepted as factual and "just how things are" and ur not gonna believe this but they changed. 



benton said:


> If being a man is something I attained by various means (showing courage, determination, etc.) as I was socialized, and now we are seeing an extended adolescence and increasingly boys are never actually becoming men through their actions even as they age, it is simply not possible for a biological female to claim to be male and be accepted by me and other men as a man.


That is not how u became a man, that's how u became the man u want to be. Men come in a million different shapes and sizes and with different hobbies, strengths, and weaknesses. 



benton said:


> I can do anything a transperson can


Besides exercise compassion for trans people.


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## Older Than Dirt

Like a lot of people here, I am a person with a strong tendency to back the underdog in any fight, and trans people are clearly underdogs in our society, so i am sympathetic.

And "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", and all the people i hate hate trans folks, same result.

And i wouldn't be here if it weren't for a visceral belief that people have a right to live their lives as they choose, and fuck anyone who says different.

But this thread has kind of morphed from talking about pronoun usage (which i think is mostly just a matter of politeness (on both sides)) to coming pretty close to saying there is one, and only one, correct and acceptable way to think about sex and gender.

According to this "only acceptable way to think about sex and gender", "trans-men" are exactly the same as biological males (even though they may be able to become pregnant and bear children), and "trans-women" are exactly the same as biological females (even though they will never menstruate, become pregnant or bear children, or experience menopause, and won't, on average, live longer than biological males). Anyone who notices that these are very debatable assertions is a fascist and a transphobe to be banned from "safe spaces", "cancelled", and silenced.

If gender is just a social construction, and biological sex has nothing to do with gender, why is it very common for trans persons to take hormones of the biologically opposite sex in order to mimic the biological sex characteristics (beards, breasts, etc) of the gender identity they profess?

Of course gender is a social construction, but it is a social construction built on the realities that males and females have different physiology, and different reproductive functions.

Maybe i am mistaken in the above statements- if i am, i am eager to learn why. Tell me why i'm wrong, using actual evidence. Saying things like


feralautistic said:


> seriously, can cis people please shut the fuck up about being trans?


isn't very effective argument. i think if i were to say "Seriously, can trans-people please shut the fuck up about biological sex and normal people?", a lot of folks would think i was a bigoted asshole with no ability to actually present any real arguments.

And of course what you actually mean isn't "can [persons whose biological sex and gender presentation are aligned] please shut the fuck up about being trans?", but actually "I demand that persons whose biological sex and gender presentation are aligned speak about being trans in exactly the way i tell them to"- by, for example using preferred pronouns, and refraining from expressing any opinions different from yours.

"Tranny" has been correctly identified as a slur in this thread by people who freely speak of "cis" men and "cis" women. I thought labeling members of groups you don't belong to with terms rejected by members of that group was wrong, and made you a bigoted asshole?

Anarchism means accepting diversity, not imposing conformity. People have the right to do what the fuck they want, and to live how the fuck they want, and to say and think what the fuck they want. And of course they have to accept the consequences of doing those things. Trying to impose your views on others through force or social pressure isn't very anarchist.


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## Older Than Dirt

@ScarletMountain : And you wonder why people hate hippies like you?


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## Deleted member 125

@Older Than Dirt @ScarletMountain take it to pm's.


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## feralautistic

oh yes, it's not anarchist of me to tell cis people to shut up. it is however, very anarchist to tell me to stop telling cis people to shut up.

and it's cis people because the only alternative term cis people offer is "normal"

cis people constantly tell trans people that they're forcing everyone to think a certain way. society is just like that. there's always pressure to comply with norms, whether you look at it as controlling people or simply not being an asshole. maybe you're just noticing that there's somewhat different pressures now, and it's trendy to not be awful to trans people


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## croc

Older Than Dirt said:


> If gender is just a social construction, and biological sex has nothing to do with gender, why is it very common for trans persons to take hormones of the biologically opposite sex in order to mimic the biological sex characteristics (beards, breasts, etc) of the gender identity they profess?


I wrote about this in a few spots of my previous comments. One comment of mine is a video and quotes from the video about exactly this actually. 

But outside of the reasons in those comments, some trans people do feel their body parts are inherently wrong (body dysphoria) and change them accordingly. 



Older Than Dirt said:


> "Tranny" has been correctly identified as a slur in this thread by people who freely speak of "cis" men and "cis" women. I thought labeling members of groups you don't belong to with terms rejected by members of that group was wrong, and made you a bigoted asshole?


Cis is the same as identifying that someone is trans, gay, straight, white, Asian, black, etc. It's not a slur but if u personally don't want to be called that we can absolutely call u something else. The reason it's been specified here is to clarify the difference in experiences between people who are trans or not trans


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## Older Than Dirt

feralautistic said:


> oh yes, it's not anarchist of me to tell cis people to shut up. it is however, very anarchist to tell me to stop telling cis people to shut up.



Bingo, you got it! Trying to silence those you don't agree with is authoritarian and not anarchist.

Do you really not see the difference between telling a group of people they are not allowed to talk about a topic, and calling that out as bullshit? One is trying to shut down others, the other is doing the opposite.

One more time: calling folks "cis" men or "cis" women is rejected by pretty much all the people you are applying that label to (the few that have heard of it anyway), including several right here in this very thread. And not just "me personally", @croc .

If you choose to continue doing that after you are told repeatedly that it is an identity that those you label as "cis" reject, how is it that you retain the moral right to get on your high horse of indignation when others label you in ways you reject?

Obviously, i used the term "normal" polemically. "Normal" means two different things: socially desirable (a subjective judgement), and statistically common (an objective fact). From the latter point of view, it is obvious that it is far more common for people's gender presentation to align with biological sex than not. In the objective sense of "normal", non-trans folks are "normal" and trans folks are "non-normal" outliers.

The only reason there is any need for a word for non-trans people is the ideological contention that there is no difference between a "trans-man" or "trans-woman" and a biological male or biological female.

Since you believe it is incumbent on "cis" people to offer you a non-bigoted way to refer to us, please feel free to use "biological male" or "biological female".


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## Older Than Dirt

Incidentally, i've noticed in several recent banned folks threads, and threats of bans in other threads, that joining just to post polemical content about only one topic, and not creating a profile or posting an informative introduction thread, are big no-nos. Folks get threatened with the ban-hammer or hit with it for doing these things.

Wondering then why mods are cool with @feralautistic having joined solely to post polemical content about trans issues, and not creating a profile or posting an introduction?

Although we know they identify as a transwoman from their first post here (the only time they have posted other than in this thread), we don't even know their preferred pronouns!

Do u even travel, sis?


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## feralautistic

it's funny how real anarchists don't tell anyone to shut up but instead speculate about banning people for speaking their mind.... i've been lurking on squat the planet for a few months now and honestly i've been hesitant to post much here. i do travel and the resources here seem decent but it's threads like this that put me off. 

if i'm not welcome here then i accept that. I don't think it's worth posting in this thread anymore at least. i know where you stand, and i think you and a lot of other people here are assholes but i'm not going to change anyone's mind.


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## Older Than Dirt

You do what you think best, @feralautistic.

I think this is obvious, but since you are fond of throwing out accusations: i was not encouraging anyone to ban you, or saying you should be banned. I think that would be silly and wrong.

I was perhaps encouraging the mods to be more consistent, and politely ask you to post a profile and an introduction, just like everybody else has to, so that folks know something about you other than that you like to call people who disagree with you "assholes", and are militantly pro-trans.

While it is not true that some of my best friends (or even any of them) are trans, i have known, lived with, hired, and worked closely with, a few trans folks over the years (all mtf except for one ftm person i saw at meetings for a couple years).

I referred to all of them as "she/her" (i cannot recall ever using a pronoun about or even mentioning the ftm person, who i barely knew), because these were people i liked and saw everyday who wore lipstick and dresses and had women's names (well, i suppose "International Chrysis" is not actually a gendered name but _she_ sure was).

If i am an example of a bigoted transphobe enemy of yours, good golly Moses.


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## Deleted member 125

@feralautistic it is pretty standard to fill out yer profile yadda yadda yadda, so if you don't mind, that would be dope.

@Older Than Dirt I don't have the time or patience to argue or discuss with you about how all yer being is antagonistic. 

[USERGROUP=17]@Staff[/USERGROUP] if anyone else wants to say something I'm sure y'all have better words for it then I do.


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## Matt Derrick

Oh boy... since people are getting a little heated here, I would like to remind everyone that you're allowed to disagree with each other as long as you keep it civil. You won't get banned for disagreeing as long as you follow the forum rules.

I would also like to make it clear that the [USERGROUP=17]@Staff[/USERGROUP] and I consider StP to be a safe space for people from all kinds of backgrounds (at least, ones that aren't fascist/exclusionary) and we believe in being as inclusionary as possible. So, while you might see some opinions on this subject here that you might consider a bit backwards, these are not the opinions of StP or it's staff and we don't support such statements.

That said, these people aren't breaking the rules if they keep things civil, and I think threads like this are a good opportunity to debate and hopefully educate folks that don't understand these views on pronouns, gender, etc.

So yeah, let's keep things cool and try to remember that no one is trying to make personal attacks on you; if they ARE making personal attacks, please hit the report link below their post to let the staff know and we'll handle it from there.


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## benton

Muffin Mouth said:


> I love this piece of art and the expansive sentiment in reflects. I think it is possible for you to accept others as they are, and I hope someday you do.
> You say that you value debate, discussion, thoughts and ideas, but you also mention that you only "occasionally" meet a worthy adversary in debate. I know so many people who are intellectually stimulating and I feel sad when I encounter one who is struggling to get beyond the entry level respect necessary to knowing and growing with others.
> I am a man, but I sense that what that means to me is a bit different than it is to you. Am I less of a man for walking off a roofing job in the middle of a shift to go home and put on a skirt and gaze upon my beauty in the mirror? You say that feelings can't be quantified, but I sense you have placed some value in how you have quantified how masculine you feel in comparison to how you perceive others. It is admirable that you want to "sharpen my sword, so to speak", but sometimes its also good to stop focusing on how sharp it is and just concentrate on not falling upon it.



Here's my entire comments, including the portion you snipped:

"If being a man is something I attained by various means (showing courage, determination, etc.) as I was socialized, and now we are seeing an extended adolescence and increasingly boys are never actually becoming men through their actions even as they age,* it is simply not possible for a biological female to claim to be male and be accepted by me and other men as a man. Why? Because when I was doing day labor in Portland and we were roofing and the guy in his 20's quit after a few hours, that's not a man. Maybe he will become one in the future, but on that jobsite he was not accepted by me and the other men on the same level as us, and that has nothing to do with gender in my opinion.* Another opinion is that I believe that my experiences as a biological male who identifies as male are being invalidated and demeaned, and this cannot possibly be healthy for our society."

In addition, your characterizations of my comments, views, and contribution to the discussion are solely comprised of your opinions. They may or may not be valid, and I would assert that they are certainly debateable.

I connected the fact that males are accepted or rejected at the level of "being a man" based on their actions to a biological female declaring that she is a man, and explained that there are males who are not accepted as men and to allow a biological female to say she is a man without demonstrating the actions and going through formal and informal rites of passage, this in my opinion invalidates and demeans my experience, which is what I thought we were trying to avoid.

Lastly, I will happily await the rebuttal of any of my actual assertions or arguments. Characterizations of my motivations, emotional state, character, etc. are largely irrelevant in the context of this discussion and really any debate, in my view. I'm certainly open to other ideas, but you will need to "show your work" as I have.


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## Older Than Dirt

@SlankyLanky : Perhaps it's the decades i spent as an academic, but i don't think i'm being particularly antagonistic; you wanna see antagonistic, go to a faculty meeting sometime. I will keep in mind what you said, though.



Matt Derrick said:


> if they ARE making personal attacks



You mean stuff like this?



feralautistic said:


> seriously, can cis people please shut the fuck up about being trans?





feralautistic said:


> i think you [meaning me- OTD] and a lot of other people here are assholes



Please note that i am not "reporting" these posts, and think it would be stupid and wrong to somehow penalize @feralautistic for making them, but i've only noticed trans advocates doing anything that could be called "personal attacks" in this thread (unless me calling a hippie a hippie is a "personal attack"; i will try to be more tolerant towards hippies in future).


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## croc

Older Than Dirt said:


> Since you believe it is incumbent on "cis" people to offer you a non-bigoted way to refer to us, please feel free to use "biological male" or "biological female".



Biological male or biological female doesn't say what their gender is though. I'm a biological female but so is a cis woman. Do u see why the term exists in a conversation where ur needing to specify what flavor of man or woman someone is? 

I promise u, regardless of feralautistic 's tone on here, cis is not a slur. I think the reason it's feeling like a slur is bc someone is saying it angrily.
It's basically the same thing as calling someone straight.


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## Older Than Dirt

@croc : Fair enough. However, "cis" is a term used almost exclusively by one group to label people in another group. It is virtually never used by the people labeled with the term as a self-description- i've never encountered this at least.

I have _never_ seen it used in a positive way (eg "cis people are so cool!"), and often in the disparaging way it has been used here.

Labels like that, that are used for "othering", are sometimes seen by some as problematic. Like in this thread, with "tranny".

Since cis-gender applies to at least 95+% of all people, perhaps a marker is not needed very often? And in the rare case where it is, maybe "non-trans" would do?

As to the claim that "cis" is a just plain old non-offensive neutral term like "straight"- I'm a heterosexual biological male in a monogamous marriage with the woman who bore our son. I assume the mustache in my picture is kind of a clue that i am "male-presenting".

But i don't like being labeled as "straight". Not one bit.

First of all, i'm old enough that the opposite of "straight" was not "gay", but rather "freek" (kind of like a hippie except younger and into like Alice Cooper and Bowie not the Dead- young and countercultural). In 9th grade english class (1972), we had to write an essay about "Two kinds of people". Mine was about "freeks" and "straights"; my gay best friend's was about "fags" and "hardhats" (meaning construction workers; look up the "Hardhat Riots" that had just taken place in NYC between anti-Viet Nam War protestors and construction workers).

Neither of us would have understood you if you had said "straight" and "gay" are opposites. My pal _might_ have known the term "gay" to mean homosexual, but i never heard him use it, and it was not common in that sense for a few more years. We both would have said "doesn't get high and has short hair" if you asked what "straight" meant. When i use the word "straight", which i do fairly often, i usually mean "doesn't smoke reefer", or maybe "non-countercultural and uptight".

Second, it makes my sexuality sound constricted and boring. It isn't a term of praise, but rather a negative value judgement that what makes your dick hard/your pussy wet is somehow better than what makes someone else respond that way. We none of us are responsible for what makes us horny. Judging others for what gets them horny is lame, whoever is doing it.

If you call me "cis" or "straight", am i going to fly off the handle and say you are erasing my identity and making me unsafe? No, because that would be really silly. But it doesn't mean that those terms don't annoy me when applied to me.


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## croc

Older Than Dirt said:


> @croc : Fair enough. However, "cis" is a term used almost exclusively by one group to label people in another group. It is virtually never used by the people labeled with the term as a self-description- i've never encountered this at least.
> 
> I have _never_ seen it used in a positive way (eg "cis people are so cool!"), and often in the disparaging way it has been used here.
> 
> Labels like that, that are used for "othering", are sometimes seen by some as problematic. Like in this thread, with "tranny".
> 
> Since cis-gender applies to at least 95+% of all people, perhaps a marker is not needed very often? And in the rare case where it is, maybe "non-trans" would do?
> 
> As to the claim that "cis" is a just plain old non-offensive neutral term like "straight"- I'm a heterosexual biological male in a monogamous marriage with the woman who bore our son. I assume the mustache in my picture is kind of a clue that i am "male-presenting".
> 
> But i don't like being labeled as "straight". Not one bit.
> 
> First of all, i'm old enough that the opposite of "straight" was not "gay", but rather "freek" (kind of like a hippie except younger and into like Alice Cooper and Bowie not the Dead- young and countercultural). In 9th grade english class (1972), we had to write an essay about "Two kinds of people". Mine was about "freeks" and "straights"; my gay best friend's was about "fags" and "hardhats" (meaning construction workers; look up the "Hardhat Riots" that had just taken place in NYC between anti-Viet Nam War protestors and construction workers). Neither of us would have understood you if you had said "straight" and "gay" are opposites. When i use the word "straight", which i do fairly often, i usually mean "doesn't smoke reefer", or maybe "non-countercultural and uptight".
> 
> Second, it makes my sexuality sound constricted and boring. It isn't a term of praise, but rather a negative value judgement that what makes your dick hard/your pussy wet is somehow better than what makes someone else respond that way. We none of us are responsible for what makes us horny. Judging others for what gets them horny is lame, whoever is doing it.
> 
> If you call me "cis" or "straight", am i going to fly off the handle and say you are erasing my identity and making me unsafe? No, because that would be really silly. But it doesn't mean that those terms don't annoy me when applied to me.



We're solid on me not calling u straight or cis now bc you've told me u don't identify with those words n of course it wouldn't be fair to do so just to spite u. I wouldn't do that.
I actually entirely understand why some non trans people who would be considered cis are feeling like it's a slur. They've never heard it before and usually they hear it the loudest and clearest when someone is yelling at them.

This is honestly something that keeps me from being friends with a fair amount of other trans and queer people. I'm not on board with judging someone's character based on their gender or sexuality or sex or anything they didn't choose/has no bearing on their character. Sadly, it's hard to get some of my fellow t's and q's on board with that bc they're really angry with how we're treated and how people outside of our situations think we should handle it.

And I understand why they're angry.

But I also understand that yelling doesn't make anyone wanna listen. Putting ppl down for shit they didn't choose is what we're asking ppl to do for us. We need to show respect to get respect. Even when it's respect through a clenched jaw bc it's frustrating to be patient about something u feel so strongly about.

If any non trans people that identify with the word cis are down to say so, go for it. There are plenty and they're usually in the younger crowd since we're more exposed to it/modern ideas of gender. Times they are a changin.

Also, on the word tranny. Tranny is to transgender as faggot is to gay.
That's why it's a slur, not a commonly used word.

Just like queer has been "relcaimed" when it used to be an inherent insult, some of us are reciming tranny and faggot. So hopefully those won't even be considered slurs in the not so distant future.


***I'd really like to ask non trans/cis people to remember that honestly not most trans people are gonna yell at u. Those are just the ones ur gonna hear the loudest. They do not represent the community and are NOT the majority of us. ***


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## Older Than Dirt

croc said:


> Also, on the word tranny. Tranny is to transgender as faggot is to gay.



Just to be clear, i fully understand this, and in fact was using the earlier discussion of the slur "tranny" (which i referred to as a slur in an earlier post BTW) to point out that othering labels are problematic.

Maybe you weren't addressing that to me but to folks who genuinely didn't know that that term is an example of what the law calls "fighting words".

As to whether i am not so familiar with non-trans folk who identify as "cis" because i am not "in the younger crowd"- first of all i'm here. Second of all, i know _very_ few people my own age, because they all OD'ed, drank themselves to death, or got murdered, and mostly hang out with people in their 20s and 30s. My son is 17; he was shocked when a teacher "misgendered" one of the several trans kids in his class. He has two close friends named Liam- we have to constantly ask "is that Foulmouthed Liam or Trans Liam?"

I do not live in some sort of old folk's bubble.


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## croc

Older Than Dirt said:


> If you call me "cis" or "straight", am i going to fly off the handle and say you are erasing my identity and making me unsafe? No, because that would be really silly. But it doesn't mean that tho



It's also important to understand that this isn't a fair comparison bc being trans is factually more dangerous than not. 
So when we say something is unsafe, we literally mean that many of us have been UNSAFE in being trans. 
The only time you'd be unsafe just for being heterosexual or non trans is internet arguments or maybe Seattle. I hear the queers and trans folk have built a fortress around the city where we're meant to shoot them down on site. I believe they're calling it "Border Patrol" which I think is a very distasteful name but missed the deadline to vote on it. Can't win em all.


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## Older Than Dirt

@croc Yes, again you are completely right about this, and i was once again being polemical (but not, i hope, antagonistic) in using that phrase.

But being trans is unsafe because bigoted assholes will do physical violence, not because of your friends using the wrong pronouns. Conflating pronoun usage with beating people up makes little sense.

Your last paragraph made me laugh hard. There may be some others- have you ever been to the West Village (NYC)?


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## Beegod Santana

Just to be clear "cis gendered" comes from the world of plant breeding where certain plants can have both female and male traits or just one. As in this plant could be self pollinating but it only produces pollen so it's "cis" meaning it only shows one gender trait. Also "tranny" can be a slur, however transvestite does not equal transgender. I've known a few drag queens who would not consider themselves transgender, and have no problem with the word tranny, shit, some have it in their stage names. The way I've always understood it is a transvestite has no desire to "transition" they're proud to be a hybrid, where's a trans gender person identifies (a least some of the time) as a member of the gender/sex opposite their biology. That being said, I agree that 99% I hear the terms "cis" or "tranny" they're being used in a negative way.


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## Older Than Dirt

@Beegod Santana - this is a fascinating claim as to the origins of "cis" as applied to sexuality.

I can't find any evidence you are correct, though. The only references to "cis" with regard to plant sex/gender i can find are a couple of weed growers using the term, but my guess would be that they are taking the term from the use of it around human sexuality, not the other way around.

Can you provide a source for this claim?

The person who invented the term does not mention plants, or any use of "cis" in plant breeding, at least in the first English-language paper they published using this term (alas, i don't read German, and can't check the original paper that they used the term in). Rather, it is a Latin word meaning "not across" or "on this side of", chosen as an opposite to "trans" (which means "across" in Latin).

https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1023/A:1018715525493
Nor does the wikipedia article on "cis" mention plants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

The articles on plant breeding and plant reproduction don't mention this term.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_breeding
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_reproductive_morphology


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## Beegod Santana

Lol, I guess your decades in academia weren't in the agriculture science department. Sexual epigenetics: gender-specific methylation of a gene in the sex determining region of Populus balsamifera - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5366940 if you want proof. "We therefore have an SDR with a sexually differentiated methyltransferase and a sexually differentiated methylation target, raising the possibility that sex-biased methylation of PbRR9 might be controlled in _cis_ or _trans_ or both." I believe its mostly just a shorter way of saying "dioecious" don't hold me to that one though. I just grow blueberries yo, never went to college for this shit


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## Beegod Santana

I should add it can also refer to "cisgeneisis" which is a gmo breeding practice. Cisgenesis - Wikipedia - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgenesis


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## Older Than Dirt

Thank you very much. i did not say that you were wrong, only that i couldn't find any evidence you were right, in places where i should have found it if you were. And you are correct that i did not teach at or do research at the ag sci department (not so many of those at universities in NYC). My background is in law, anthropology, and criminology, with some pharmacology and epidemiology.

I don't think there is a very strong connection between the use of "cis" in plant biology and the use with regard to human sexuality though. I suspect both fields are simply using the latin "not across" (cis) and "across" (trans) meanings to arrive at the same term with different meanings.

First, the person who first applied the term doesn't mention this (at least in their first English-language paper).

Second, the paper you cite does not seem to use "cis" to mean anything like "plant that is of one sex and identifies as another sex", because of course plants don't identify as anything. "Cis" is definitely is not being used as a synonym for "dioecious" (which means the few plants that have two separate sexes required for reproduction), BTW. Dioecious plants of course can and do change sex- female cannabis plants often grow a few male flowers and self-pollinate. But that is a change of sex, not of gender. This is not possible for humans. The use of "cis" and "trans" in the paper does not seem to have anything to do with this though.

But thank you very much for making me aware of this. Also, i never before read a scientific paper where "Methods" comes last, after "Results" and "Discussion", which just seems bass ackwards to me. Different fields of course have different conventions, but that seems screwy to me- how would we know what the results mean if we don't know what you did? So i learned something from you today.


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## Beegod Santana

Ya, to be fair I can't find any definitive proof this is where it came from, I've just read agriculture journals from the late 80's that use the term and as far as I can tell they predate the modern use by a few years. The Wikipedia article on cisgenders has a bit about "In his 1998 essay "The Neosexual Revolution", he cites his two-part 1991 article "Die Transsexuellen und unser nosomorpher Blick" ("Transsexuals and our nosomorphic view") as the origin of the term.[3]". Unfortunately I can't find that article in English so I have no clue if it borrowed the term from agriculture or not.


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## Older Than Dirt

Yes, that 1991 paper does not seem to exist in english.

If you want to read the 1998 paper you mention, click on the first link in my post #93 above. As i said above, it does not mention agriculture or plant biology in explaining the term, but does give the latin meanings of "cis" and "trans".


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## EmmaAintDead

Brodiesel710 said:


> @EmmaAintDead, In reference to transgendered people, do you think the word tranny is a slur?


100% of the time, yes. That's a word I'd much prefer I only hear other trans people use in reference to each other, and even then only in a very friendly way. Non-trans people should not be using this word.


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## Matt Derrick

EmmaAintDead said:


> 100% of the time, yes. That's a word I'd much prefer I only hear other trans people use in reference to each other, and even then only in a very friendly way. Non-trans people should not be using this word.



Can you define what this word's meaning is that makes it a slur?


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## EmmaAintDead

I've been bad about checking back on this thread, I've got a bit of catch-up to do. A lot of this has already been addressed, but re-stating a bit won't hurt nobody.



Older Than Dirt said:


> politeness demand we refer to those we are close to in ways that will make them happy. So does self-interest- if we piss off those we like, we will be lonely.
> 
> But- the demand that folks "correctly gender" others is a step backwards in gender freedom, and anti-feminist.
> 
> There's been decades of efforts by feminists to develop forms of language that de-emphasize gender, and the constant recitation of gender in conversation, through use of gender-neutral pronouns among other things. This is rooted in an effort to overcome sexism and misogyny, just like gender-neutral bathrooms.
> 
> Note that this struggle has been successful in eliminating the routine recital of a female's marriage/ownership status (through use of "Miss" or "Mrs." before their name) in my lifetime.
> 
> In this view, gender is seen as a socially-constructed performance, not an innate identity.
> Gender is de-emphasized out of a recognition that traditional gender roles have had very bad consequences for persons with female reproductive organs.
> 
> Use of singular "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun comes out of a desire to de-emphasize the gender binary, but can conflict with the neo-binary gender performances of trans folks.
> 
> "Misgendering" a person is seen as disrespectful, with use of [would-be neutral] "they" sometimes considered to be misgendering since it seeks neutrality rather than determining the gender identity of the person spoken about, and affirming it through pronoun usage.
> 
> Note that English pronouns only are gendered when speaking about individual third parties- "I" and "you" are not gendered, nor are plural references to third parties.
> 
> So we have folks trying to be polite and PC by using gender-neutral pronouns getting told off for doing so. But why do we need to relate to people through determining and reciting their gender? How is this progressive?



The issue of "They" being a misgendering term relies almost entirely upon the speaker not shifting this to "he" or "she" when corrected by the audience. Very few instances will someone get immediately angry about the use of "they," more often than not it'll go something like this

Speaker: Oh yeah I know so-and-so, I just saw them busking earlier today

Audience: Nice, just so you know, though, so-and-so goes by She

After this point, the original post stands alone for the most part. Make the attempt to shift that language, that'd be cool. If not, yeah, you might piss someone off. Nobody is going to waterboard you until you get it right.



ScarletMountain said:


> Throughout the ages it seems that people have struggled with & sought after the questions pondered by our ancestors.
> Gender confusion is a delusional subconscious programming being at its inner core , a deep seeded lack of acceptance of oneself & how one was created out from the womb
> It’s believed that our essence or soul is comprised of two vital energies, one would call “male” other “female”
> Each containing its own correspondences & traits. The idea is by meeting both energies in a balanced trajectory, the “male” & “female” energies unite in complimentary progress of evolutionary form, & bring the soul to zero point
> Or what buddha called the middle path


Quite frankly, this is not what buddhist idea of a middle way refers to whatsoever and the rest of it is just as off-base. A person's energy is a facet of your spiritual belief, whereas gender is a material reality. I know this to be the case because I don't believe people have any form of spiritual energy and I know for a fact I know people who have a gender.

What's frankly a bit upsetting about this is that you call my lived experience "confusion." I'm not confused. I know precisely what I'm doing and exactly what that means for how I interact with the world around me and how I expect the world around me to interact in turn. There is nothing unsure, unstable, or unharmonious in my own being, sans sometimes I get a hair too drunk and try to get everyone around me to fight cops with me. My discovery of my own self and my decision to introduce that self to those I care about were introspective journeys, and as such they were curated with mind and care to the best of my own ability.



ScarletMountain said:


> it’s yours & only your decision to react to these situations. U can choose to observe it,not give a fuck what people say or think or you can be the opposite & let others control how U feel
> Look we all have things going on, & I don’t care what anyone chooses to identify as long as u happy ..but laws of nature don’t change becuz one wants them to..all the disguises an hormones serve as escapist realities of the lost soul


There are very few things I accept as natural laws. I will list them here:
1.) All species must fight
2.) All species must feed
3.) All species must fuck

Beyond fucking, fighting, and feeding, there's no universal truth from one species to another. In fact, these don't even apply to individual organisms, that's how frail natural laws are to me.

Regardless, I wish the first part of this were true. That would be a truly great world to live in, if I were the only person who was in control of how I felt. A few years ago I was walking around the north side of Chicago with a friend and we walked a bit too closeby to a strip club packed to the gills with rowdy bros. Two of them jumped me and another two chased my friend off while throwing bottles at her. During the beating, I was called a tranny and a faggot. Now, I suppose I could have chosen not to let that bum me out, as I do now -- that experience is just another experience I had, it's none more or less traumatizing or saddening to me to reflect on it now than any other experience -- but I could not have chosen how those men made me feel in that moment. I didn't make a choice to feel harmed, that was forced on me. I COULDN'T have made that choice. I'm not physically strong enough to fight multiple people and take control of a situation like that.

How the outside world interacts with me is not a choice I make, how I perceive it is only a choice in a limited sense, and how I respond in turn is only a choice insofar as the situation is a peaceful one. Sadly, that isn't always the reality for non-genderconforming people in this world.



benton said:


> what is it shorthand for, exactly?


This is in response to the use of "Cis," which the roots of have been speculated on already, but I'll go on and clear the air. "Cis" is shorthand for "Cisgender," the counterpart to "Transgender," "Agender," and "Nonbinary," to name the major markers. There are a plethora of other markers as well, but these are the ones you're most likely to deal with unless you start really getting to know your local queer communities.

Cisgender is a term that's been popularized over the past decade as a descriptor for someone who identifies their gender with the one they were assigned at birth. That is to say, if you are born, the doctor says "It's a boy!" and today you see yourself as a boy (or, as a man, I'm not sure how many children read this forum) then you fall within the category of cisgender.

Transgender is a term to describe someone who does NOT agree with the gender they were assigned at birth. In my case, the doctor said "It's a boy!" and throughout life I've come to realize, no, it is not a boy. It's not a boy at all. Silly doctor.

When people in this thread say they don't identify as cis, that's fine, but I wonder if that's out of stubbornness of trying to prove a point. Because, honestly, if you identify with the gender you were assigned at birth, you're not like... less of a person for that. That'd be ridiculous. But when someone says "dont call me cis" it means one of two things to me - either you're trans, or you have negative feelings about trans discourse in general and are angry to some degree at trans people. For a term that just means "I was born, called a boy, and I'm still a boy" (or, substitute with girl) people tend to get really angry about it.

The REASON cis was popularized as a counterpart to trans is this: The alternative to "Cis man" and "Trans man" is "Normal man" and "Trans man" - and the immediate implication is that there's something abnormal - or worse, anti-normal - about trans people. And in redefining that language, we lessen the impact on our trans brothers and sisters.

Sometimes us trans folk take the piss out of cis people because there are some fundamental things yall wouldn't understand about our lived experiences no matter how many gender studies classes or trans friends you have - but it's mostly a coping mechanism we use because we have such little power over how the greater culture perceives us. In the same way racial minorities rib at white people, we rib at cis people. Wealthy white cis men control the basis of western society, and people who aren't those things tend to cope by identifying those aspects and making fun, while also genuinely organizing to dismantle a power structure that allows for that to have happened in the first place. And with all of those markers except "wealthy," none of those are a choice. So, there's a bit of unfairness here in ribbing like that. White cis dudes didn't choose to be born in the first place, let alone did they get an option on how they came out. There's no character creation screen in our parent's wombs. But the blunt and basic fact in all of this is that you DO have it easier by being white than you do any other race in America. You DO have it easier being male than any other gender in America. And you DO have it easier being cis than trans in america. That isn't to say that you have it easy. Let me repeat that: THAT IS NOT TO SAY YOU HAVE IT EASY. That is just to say that, in your exact situation that you live right now, if you are a white cis male, substituting ANY of those markers for another one would make your current situation harder.

And yeah, in the same way that some individuals who are racial minorities hate white people, some individuals who are gender minorities hate cis people. And, I mean, i guess you can be mad about those percent-of-a-percent type people.



croc said:


> Preface: I am a trans man who has had no physical transition, and may never physically transition.


Power, brother. I see you.



croc said:


> Okay, starting with asking that people use gendered pronouns being "anti-feminist"....
> Well plenty of the "feminist" movement(s?) has been and continues to be trans exclusionary. Pussy riot shit where "feminism" is all focused on anatomy, and the fact that trans women have and very much continue to be seen as outsider men trying to invade a REAL women's space.
> And so many "feminists" are ready as all hell to try to silence trans men or other trans afab people. As if us not identifying as women somehow changes the way we're still treated on a day to day basis by the general public perceiving us as women.


THIS IS REMARKABLY IMPORTANT AND I CANT BELIEVE I DIDNT BRING THIS UP SOONER

Feminism is an ideology as varied as anarchism. As you go back through the timeline of feminism, it's meant different things to different people. And alllllll these different brances, from suffragettes to sex+ to red umbrellas to riot grrrls - they still exist today. The same way a Haymarket anarchist of the early 1900s might disagree with an Insurrectionist of the early 2010s in every way except "The state has no role in a truly free society,"" these different aspects of feminism do NOT agree with each other in anything except that "women are inherently equal and should be considered as such by the culture at large."

Given @Older Than Dirt 's username and references to your age in general, I would imagine that a lot of feminists you've known and stood with through your life are what we call "second wave" or "2way" feminists, and that focused a lot on examining performance and the role of gender in structure. What it really, really, REALLLLLLLY didn't like was a third gender. A lot of prominent thinkers of this generation had a lot of really awesome things to say and BRUTALLY GOOD analysis of the role of gender in the household, workplace, bedroom, and organizing spaces, but discounted the abstract "third gender" as a hinderance and a distraction. It wasn't until the 80s or 90s that the "third gender" started being carefully considered, and honestly I still consider a lot of 3rd wave feminists (80's/90's+ newer wave) transphobic because in that consideration, though it was undoubtedly careful, no small number of them straight up went "a third gender exists and should not, these people need to pick a side or obscure themselves." And thankfully, more of them went the route of acceptance and a "third gender" was understood to be something that was there all along in trans people.

Feminism is a blanket good. The basis and the underlying goal of egalitarianism is something I fight for in my organizing, just as I hope the rest of you do in yours. But that's not to say it's one coin with two sides. We're out here rollin d20s on anarchism and feminism, it's not an either or situation.



croc said:


> Okay I lied. One more thing.
> While corn got pissed at Matt using "they" for a woman who prefers "she", I have heard Matt call this girl "she" before multiple times too. It's not been exclusively "they" and total avoidance for "she". And when this girl first came out n Matt wasn't used to the pronoun shift, if I heard it and needed to correct him about calling her "she", he immediately complied every time. "Right, she."



This is also important, and goes back to my example conversation. Just try to do it better, just a little bit each time. Ya'll will get there. And it's worth the effort, because the people you love will be safer and feel better.

I'm gonna let the end of this post stand alone cause, i dont know what else i could possibly add to this. It's perfect:



croc said:


> It does take time for people to learn. If there's true effort being put forth, I'm down to give that person patience. But if someone is not willing to give that patience bc it's damaging to them to stick around for the process, that's valid too.



Actually no i do have one thing to add. Croc, get to me on DMs if you have a facebook, I would love to be your friend.
-------



WyldLyfe said:


> ScarletMountain also agree with what you said about this is an issue about the person not liking themselves the way they are born male or female, if someone doesn't like the way they are and then start to mutilate themselves to feel better, is this not a disharmony in the mind? people get locked up for that. They say trans people have a high suicide rate, some say its because they are bullied, but black people often say they are bullied too there is a lot more of them and they commit suicide much less, so it can't be about bullying, like yes that is part of it but someone with mental illness is more likely to hurt themselves if they are bullied a lot, then someone who doesn't.


Okay, this one I really want to hone in on one specific word, and that is "Mutilate." There's a really long right-wing history of people, mostly evangelical christians or new-age spiritualists who disagree with christianity but still prop up ultraconservative talking points, comparing transition to mutilation because some - not all, not even most, but some- of us commit to gender affirmation surgery (or "The Surgery"). This is a medical procedure that adults consent to over the course of years IF NOT DECADES. It is not mutilation. It is not on the same level of religious genital harm. It is not on the same PLANET as corrective female genital mutilation. It is a MEDICAL PROCEDURE. THAT COSTS TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. AND TAKES YEARS. IF NOT DECADES. TO EVEN GET A CONSULTATION ON.

And it's a huge, HUGE decision that nobody takes lightly.



feralautistic said:


> gender is nearly impossible to escape. i have never met a single person who doesn't use gender in relating to others. basically *every* social interaction is affected in some way by gender, especially interactions between strangers but close relationships as well. cis people tend not to notice this because they don't have any point of comparison. many trans people, myself included, would love to exist in a world without gender. but that's not an option. our options are being treated as a man, a woman, or a subhuman freak.


DING DING DING

That's how the world sees us, unless we (and by we, I mean you, reading this) makes and active effort to change that. And that's the kind of introspection that I wanted to create with this thread. What can I do to change this? What can my friends do? What can the person who wrote this post (Hi my name is emma) do better to get people on board? Because this is precisely the issue, and this is precisely how the world treats us. For the most part, we just want to be left the fuck alone. I'm loud and I spend my energy on posts like this, conversations like this, meetings like this, teach-ins, workshops, zines like this, because I want to create a world where if my own child (who is 3 now) comes out, that my child won't have to spend this much time and energy, but can just... exist. and be happy.



feralautistic said:


> seriously, can cis people please shut the fuck up about being trans? because you don't get it, it's embarrassing for everyone. every damn new ager with some theory about "energies" and debunked pop neurology thinks they know how trans people work and you all know NOTHING.


To be fair, I did purposefully open this up for cis folk to be able to make mistakes and have a discussion. I also absolutely, in the OP, asked for patience from them when trans and GNC folk got frustrated. But also i love you and pop neurology is some terf shit lmao



feralautistic said:


> whew. this was a good thread idea. but i'm gonna link to this every time i need to make the point that cis people nearly always fail to be good about trans stuff. even the cis people who are alright. i've been lurking on this site for a while and it really drives home the thought that if a space isn't just queer, it's not going to be queer-friendly.


I LOVE YOU PLEASE ADD ME ON FACEBOOK THANKS



Juan Derlust said:


> Do you hope to help foster any understanding by operating in queer-only spaces or should we just maintain some kind of at-odds factionalism?


Queer only spaces are a reflection of a culture that inherently has queer-free spaces. It's not exclusionist, it's not factions, but simply a place where we can go where everyone is like us and just for a moment we don't have to deal with the outside world. Cisgender heterosexual Caucasian males have hooters, we have a coffee shop somewhere just outside Seattle and absolutely nowhere else. (THATS A JOKE PEOPLE)

But really, it's nice to be able to go somewhere and be able to be myself without worrying about fucking up the presentation and having someone kick my ass for it.



croc said:


> Personally, I accept myself fully. I'm a faggot with tits and a vagina who wears crop tops and boxer briefs and has hairy limbs and crevices and loves getting dirty and working hard and being active and doing people's make up. I am very secure in who I am and plenty of other trans people are too.


PREACH


croc said:


> Not just bc we are bullied, but because we are denied and belittled (read your own words for a direct example) by many people very regularly. Also, check the suicide rates for trans black people (yeah, those groups do overlap....)
> A black person isn't gonna get kicked out of their home if they tell their parents that they're black but it happens to trans people all the time. Black people aren't called mentally ill for being black, something they did not choose in the first place (wow kinda like being trans whoaaa wild).
> Have u considered that yall denying trans people's identities and calling us ill has uhhh idk A LOT to do with why our suicide rates are high???
> My mom and I never had a phenonimal relationship but after I came out to her she would not answer my calls or texts for a year. That doesn't happen to black people for being black. Apples and oranges. The person who u lived inside of, who was the first to hold u in this world, who is supposed to love and care for u unconditionally cutting off contact with u bc they don't agree with or like who u KNOW u are... That's the kind of shit that makes people kill themselves.


Where is the applause emoticon 👏👏👏👏 NVM I FOUND IT



Brodiesel710 said:


> I'm a 34 year old straight white man. And god damn it was hard enough just to become that, my transition into manhood started about 5 years ago, right after I got married. I can only image the struggle LGBTQ's have to face, and I support that.
> 
> I was introduced to radical feminist politics and queerness when I was 17. Matter of fact, the banner of this thread is a Crimethinc poster I used to have hanging on my wall. I have observed a lot of interesting behavior since that time, and have participated in a bit myself, including crossdressing. I have only ever ONCE been asked to use correct pronouns. Denver 2003 I was handed a business card by a 16 year old trans person that described the different pronouns that they used, and some other gender insights. There was mention of the ze zir zirs which I never used and they seem to have fallen by the wayside. I say THEY when appropriate, and I have friends that ONLY say THEY when referencing EVERYONE, I don't like it, but I don't think it's bad.
> 
> To date, I have been intimate with 2 trannies mtf/ftm, a drag queen, a gay man, and a lesbian. This was most all in my 20's as I spent a lot of time on the streets, traveling, and photographing. I did not really enjoy any of it (well except the lesbian), this was all circumstantial and I have no problems relating to people in new and exciting ways.
> 
> My beef with the LGBTQ's doesn't lie within gender identity but the extreme radical political baggage that usually comes along with it. BE GAY - cool, but then you got the anarchism, veganism, un-patriotic, anti-capatilist, hate everything in society mishmash of over bearing naive radical ideologies that mostly always fizzles out in your 30's. I've had confrontations fit to make a whole new season of Portlandia!!! So there we go, you can be a a tranny but, just I still might think your an asshole.


The use of slurs has already been addressed, so I won't continue on that cause that's settled. What I want to focus on here is why queers tend to have extreme ideologies.

Imagine a world where your very existence is questioned. Not in a racial sense, like "are asian people bad," that happens and that radicalizes a lot of Asian people, or at least pushes them to create change. Not in a gendered sense like "are women bad," because that happens as well and, similarly, that pushes women to be proactive and fight. But i mean literally, "do trans people exist." When we're right here, saying "Yes, we do. We exist." and the conversation goes on without us. It makes us, as a group, a lot more likely to stop trying to affect change, and a lot more likely to start looking into historical instances where people had to fight for their very survival. In our own introspection about what we as individuals are to our own selves, we have to at some point think about what we are to those around us. And if that conclusion is, "we aint shit. We're nothing, and that's how they'll treat us," then yeah, a lot of us go to extremes to defend our existences.



Beegod Santana said:


> So basically call people what they ask you to but don't wander the earth in crippling fear of misgendering a stranger? I think that's the gist of this thread...


You got it, family <3



SlankyLanky said:


> This isn't just for one user, this is to make it crystal clear that this thread is a place for people to learn, not to argue why they refuse to act like a decent (and I'm really reaching here by saying decent, because if that's too much to ask holy fuck what a prick you must be if you can't comprehend this by now) person.


I'm making it a point to go back and give yall post karma, this settled it.




Older Than Dirt said:


> One more time: calling folks "cis" men or "cis" women is rejected by pretty much all the people you are applying that label to (the few that have heard of it anyway), including several right here in this very thread. And not just "me personally",


I ask with acknowledgement to your own time, space, and effort, that you take a look at earlier in this reply regarding the term "cisgender" and hopefully we can revisit this



Beegod Santana said:


> Just to be clear "cis gendered" comes from the world of plant breeding where certain plants can have both female and male traits or just one. As in this plant could be self pollinating but it only produces pollen so it's "cis" meaning it only shows one gender trait. Also "tranny" can be a slur, however transvestite does not equal transgender. I've known a few drag queens who would not consider themselves transgender, and have no problem with the word tranny, shit, some have it in their stage names. The way I've always understood it is a transvestite has no desire to "transition" they're proud to be a hybrid, where's a trans gender person identifies (a least some of the time) as a member of the gender/sex opposite their biology. That being said, I agree that 99% I hear the terms "cis" or "tranny" they're being used in a negative way.


My main issue with drag queens is that they are men playing dress-up in their free time. What they say doesn't go for all of us. And what you might be allowed to say at one of their stage shows doesn't mean it's cool to say elsewhere. Drag queens are entertainment acts that toy with gender. Trans people live lives that are at risk because of gender perceptions. 



Juan Derlust said:


> In other words, simply try to not to be an asshole.


And this is what it all really boils down to <3


----------



## EmmaAintDead

Matt Derrick said:


> Can you define what this word's meaning is that makes it a slur?


This word is mostly a word used today in pornography that fetishizes the freakishness of the "chick with a dick" having sex. It's exploitative as fuck, but beyond that, it's something that most of us (for real, MOST trans people) have heard in a hateful way thrown at us at some point in our lives. And honestly, my rule-of-thumb is, if you can shout something while beating someone in a violent hate crime, you should think twice about using that word in general. Because chances are really good someone's heard it shouted at them during a violent hate crime.


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## Deleted member 24782

@EmmaAintDead You are a fantastic, thoughtful, beautiful writer and activist who has inspired me a great deal. I think you did a great job of coming full circle with this conversation and bringing some finality to this thread. Thank you.

When I'm in Chicago next, I'm lookin' you up....


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## EmmaAintDead

Please do <3 <3 <3


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## Deleted member 24782

EmmaAintDead said:


> Please do <3 <3 <3



BTW, whats your pronoun? ( ;


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## EmmaAintDead

aw, my first negative react was for calling a slur a slur. I'd be sad if I weren't so proud of my otherwise completely positive karma on this forum 💋


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## EmmaAintDead

Brodiesel710 said:


> BTW, whats your pronoun? ( ;


She/Her/They/Them
I am trans, femme, and nonbinary.


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## Older Than Dirt

@EmmaAintDead - A really fabulous series of posts. i could find some things to argue with, but then i could argue with furniture. Thank you.


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## 3rdEyeOrganics

Influential said:


> This all confuses me soooo much. I'm sorry. I hope no offence. I guess I'm just grossly uneducated.


You as well as I. All I can really do I've come to find out in the last year is close my mouth and open my mind, heart and reality as I know it. Hopefully along the way I can learn to use proper pronouns and not come off as a neanderthal when reality is I'm just ignorant to the subject. Just my .02


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## Beegod Santana

EmmaAintDead said:


> My main issue with drag queens is that they are men playing dress-up in their free time. What they say doesn't go for all of us. And what you might be allowed to say at one of their stage shows doesn't mean it's cool to say elsewhere. Drag queens are entertainment acts that toy with gender. Trans people live lives that are at risk because of gender perceptions.
> <3



You do realize that this is just a little hypocritical right? You say trans people can say tranny because it's a slur against them. Well plenty of drag queens have had that word used against them violently which is why they've co-opted it. Also the idea that their lives aren't at risk due to people's fucked up view of gender norms is also pretty ignorant. Plenty have been tracked down and killed over the years for their acts. By your own standard they should be free to use that word, but some how it's not enough because they're just "entertainment," which is also pretty ignorant because drag shows have played a major role in getting mainstream society to accept trans people. Also putting on a show where you publicly attack gender norms potentially puts you at greater risk for attack. It literally puts a bullseye on your back, people can track you down through tax records ect... You say your not trying to police language, but unfortunately that's kinda exactly what you're doing here.


----------



## croc

Beegod Santana said:


> You do realize that this is just a little hypocritical right? You say trans people can say tranny because it's a slur against them. Well plenty of drag queens have had that word used against them violently which is why they've co-opted it. Also the idea that their lives aren't at risk due to people's fucked up view of gender norms is also pretty ignorant. Plenty have been tracked down and killed over the years for their acts. By your own standard they should be free to use that word, but some how it's not enough because they're just "entertainment," which is also pretty ignorant because drag shows have played a major role in getting mainstream society to accept trans people. Also putting on a show where you publicly attack gender norms potentially puts you at greater risk for attack. It literally puts a bullseye on your back, people can track you down through tax records ect... You say your not trying to police language, but unfortunately that's kinda exactly what you're doing here.



She actually said what attendees might be able to say at a drag show is different than what they should say outside of said show. Not that drag queens shouldn't say tranny. 

I also agree their lives are absolutely dangerous for what they do. It's just a little different context if they aren't recognized outside of their shows since their costume isn't what they look like all the time. So they're at risk part time rather than full. Still at a huge risk 100% agree and I love that they're being themselves despite it. 



EmmaAintDead said:


> What they say doesn't go for all of us. And what you might be allowed to say at one of their stage shows doesn't mean it's cool to say elsewhere. Drag queens are entertainment acts that toy with gender.


----------



## benton

I embarked on a long and detailed response to EmmaAin'tDead and then I realized that I am unable to devote the proper amount of time right now. Ultimately, as long as people are using their brains I'm satisfied, and I would like to applaud the discussion that has formed and I am hopeful that it will continue. These are topics that are well worth discussing in depth in my view.


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## salxtina

'Cis-gender' = '*same* gender' = person living as the gender they were assigned at birth.
Society almost ALWAYS looks at people being cis-gendered as the 'POSITIVE', correct thing. It is the opposite of an othering insult.
Anyone is free to reject the term for themselves. In general, it's a good umbrella descriptor for *most* non-trans people in our current culture.
And yes, non-trans people should generally shut up about "what being transgender is like."

No one here is such a sheltered normie that you don't know what actual police do. Let your use of the word 'policing' reflect that.

Civility isn't justice.
And academic debate is paid work. Better paid than most work. There's no reason to expect anyone to do it on a volunteer basis, in defense of their own right to basic respect. Feeling like something is an 'interesting philosophical discussion' doesn't justify wearing down and talking over people who are harmed by the issue.

So we letting people make this the "yell about my right to yell slurs" thread now, or?


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## benton

"Letting people?" Who is this "we" that you speak of?

I don't agree with your characterizations as far as "wearing down and talking over people," but even if I did, what exactly is anyone's authority and power to stop it (other than removal from the message board, obviously).

They sat me down in 7th grade civics class and explained the bill of rights and constitution to me, so the horse is out of the barn. I don't see where I have a duty to tailor my expressions in such a way as to avoid certain reactions, nor do I believe it is reasonable to expect me to know ahead of time how someone will react to my views.

This world can't do anything to me other than kill me, and I'll die someday anyway. Other than that, I get to go on expressing myself in the manner of my choosing, and whatever someone thinks or doesn't think about it is on them in my view.


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## Older Than Dirt

salxtina said:


> 'Cis-gender' = '*same* gender' = person living as the gender they were assigned at birth.



But uum, no. "Cis" does not mean "same". Actually as discussed extensively above, "cis" is a Latin word/root meaning "on this side of", thus "not across".

It is a "back-formation" chosen to mean "not trans", because "trans" means "across", like "acoustic guitar", a term that did not exist when all guitars were acoustic before electric guitars were invented. The goal of the term "cis" is "mark" what had previously been an "unmarked category"- "unmarked" as in "taken for granted as 'natural' and 'just the way things are' ".

It was invented by an academic, in the course of that academic debate you find so sinister. If you imagine "academic debate" is inherently "paid work", you are a very ignorant person who has never actually met or had any contact with any academics. The vast majority of academic work is unpaid, like for example ALL academic article writing and editing. Most academics are grad students and adjunct faculty living on starvation wages, often less than minimum wage since we don't get paid for stuff liking grading papers and exams. Paid tenured fulltime academic work pays _much_ less than other jobs requiring less education, like being a lawyer or medical doctor. I never was paid a fulltime salary in my academic career- i was always on "soft money", like almost all scientists. "Soft money" means the university gives you a title, an office, an institutional email address, and a phone line in your office. If you want a _salary_, you have to go out and hustle grant money to cover it, and pay a cut of the grant money to the university.

@ScarletMountain - You continue to be a hippie posting utter nonsense, that is also totally irrelevant. Most of us here know that a person can live entirely on liquids, BTW- Steel Reserve 211 is the staff of life to many here.


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## Beegod Santana

To everyone using the "just shut up" line, no. This is the fucking internet. For all I know you could be a 15yr old cis person with Asperger's role playing as a trans person. The entire point of onlineforums is to have a discussion.


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## Older Than Dirt

salxtina said:


> And yes, non-trans people should generally shut up about "what being transgender is like."



Literally no non-trans posters have done anything like say "what being transgender is like."*

And this thread isn't about "Do trans folks have a right to exist and be trans?" Everyone, trans and "cis" alike, agrees that the answer is "of course they do".

What this thread is about is "How reasonable is it for trans folks to throw an ing-bing when folks 'misgender' them by using gender-neutral pronouns?"

And of course the insistence by some trans folks that non-trans people, far from "shutting up", MUST speak about trans folks IN THE WAYS YOU DICTATE.

All the angry and militant trans posters seem clear on the idea that my freedom of speech includes your right to react to what i say however you choose to, but seem less clear on the idea that that applies to them too.
----------

*_Maybe_ @ScarletMountain has done this with their idiot "tragedy of the stomach" posts, but they are a hippie idiot who posts the same nonsense about diet and breath on _every_ topic, from guns to trans rights. No one else has though, and i don't think any one takes anything they say as anything other than the hair-farmer babble it is.

"Life pro tip" to @ScarletMountain - maybe change your forum pic to one where you don't look really unhealthy? Might lend more credibility to your posts about your superior diet and breathing if you actually looked as healthy as the average poster here?


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## salxtina

So there's a fundamental disagreement here about what the point of sharing this information is. One purpose people can come to the conversation with is to educate people about what it's like to live in a way that's been marginalized by dominant, abusive forms of power, give trans people a chance to connect and share accurate information about themselves, foster a subcultural space that's more respectful, and do harm-reduction. 

The other purpose is to show up going, "oh this is such fun theoretical material to have arguments about," wank about how you imagine yourself to be "less feeling and more intellectual," pretend that you're being edgy by using the same slurs as anyone's 60-year-old christian uncle in the suburbs, and waste the time and energy of people who are here to do harm-reduction in good faith by having pointless arguments about things that don't effect you.

So I shorthanded 'same' for 'same side of.' "Sinister"?? Sure, if that's what pisses you off more, that's how you should read it. But don't pretend you haven't seen the idiotic screeds from person after person "theorizing" trans-ness as 'confusion,' 'fake,' etc - it's all right there. My final question, primarily, was to the moderators, as to whether there was any limit at which they'd stop letting non-impacted people derail this with irrelevant pontificating at trans people.


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## Older Than Dirt

salxtina said:


> The other purpose is to show up going, "oh this is such fun theoretical material to have arguments about," wank about how you imagine yourself to be "less feeling and more intellectual," pretend that you're being edgy by using the same slurs as anyone's 60-year-old christian uncle in the suburbs, and waste the time and energy of people who are here to do harm-reduction in good faith by having pointless arguments about things that don't effect you.



Maybe i'm just oversensitive about being an old crock, but that _almost_ sounds like it might be directed to the only person who is 60 years old participating here: me.

Just like your last post about how horrible "academic debate" is sounded kinda like it might be some kind of veiled attack on the only person posting here who has admitted to being over-educated: me. And how "no one is such a sheltered normie they don't know what actual police do"- _could_ that be a veiled attack on the only person (me) who has used the verb "to police" (which means "to control")?

Thank you for sharing your fantasies about my life and background; for a reality check, see, among other things i've posted here my posts about my life as a teenage dirtbag. I have been a countercultural weirdo getting in trouble, getting guns pulled on me, and getting the shit beat out of me, for being who i am for a lot longer than you have been alive, comrade. I was a career criminal doing multiple felonies daily for more than 20 years. Then i slowed down to a couple felonies a week until i was 50, and hardly ever commit felonies any more (maybe a dozen this year max).

So: Which "slurs" have i used exactly?

The only slur toward trans folks that i have noticed here was by someone who clearly had no idea "tranny" was pejorative, referring to_ some trans folks they had had sex with_. If they are an example of your enemies, hmmmm.

Maybe better to direct your anger at the trans OP, who created this thread to make a space for a discussion among non-trans and trans folks alike, the discussion that makes you so angry?

As to saying you "used shorthand" in saying "cis" means "same": No actually, you were _incorrect_, not "using shorthand" (whatever that means). "Cis" literally means "not trans", not "same side of". "This side of" is not the same as "same side of"- "this" and "same" do not mean the same thing.

Why it is better to say "cis" than "not trans", other than saving five letters and a space in typing, is unclear. If you imagine your error "pissed me off", you are delusional and reading a _lot_ into what i wrote that just isn't there.


----------



## Beegod Santana

salxtina said:


> No one here is such a sheltered normie that you don't know what actual police do. Let your use of the word 'policing' reflect that.



Lol, you obviously don't get out of your bubble much. Ever heard of this cool thing called a "metaphor."


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## benton

feralautistic: you are welcome as far as I'm concerned (if my vote counts for anything). I don't give a fuck if you travel or not. I didn't start traveling until I was 35.

It's 2019 and we're alive on planet earth. Fucking do it all. Go big or go home!

As far as being educated versus being ignorant, I accomplish that by reading literally thousands of books and doing lots of thinking. When I speak on a topic, you can be assured that I have read at least a couple of books on the subject, and I love getting viewpoints from other readers and thinkers because at the end of the day, I'm not all that smart


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## Older Than Dirt

EmmaAintDead said:


> I am trans, femme, and nonbinary.



I wonder if you might be willing to unpack this a bit for me, and perhaps others?

My understanding of what "trans" means is a person with gender identity opposite to the person's initial male/female "assignment", aka "biological sex". It seems to me that being "trans" thus very much affirms the "gender binary", but crosses the dividing line (thus the use of the term "trans" meaning "across") to the opposite gender.

"Femme" i understand to be short for, or derived from, "feminine", the antonym of "masculine".
Again, this categorization seems to affirm the masculine/feminine"gender binary".

So what do you mean by saying you are "trans, femme, and nonbinary"?

I am certainly not saying that you identifying yourself in this way is somehow wrong or invalid. I am merely saying that it is confusing to me, and i would like to understand what you mean by saying this.

I would have thought that being "nonbinary" would mean rejecting the idea that there are only two genders, or that every person or behavior must be classified as masculine or feminine.

Thank you very much in advance if you (or anyone else) would be willing to educate me here.


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## feralautistic

everyone's identity / relationship to labels is unique but i can at least clarify that trans includes or can include nonbinary. it's not like every trans person agrees with me, there's been a lot of fighting about it. speaking from my own perspective the trans people who would exclude nonbinary people are essentialist fuckwads. however, some nonbinary people don't consider themselves trans, and i wouldn't force the label on them.

anyway, trans is a slightly difficult term to define, but here's my best attempt: a trans person is someone who rejects their assigned sex, and chooses to call themselves trans. it doesn't necessarily mean they identify with a binary gender.

as far as "cis" goes.... i don't like grouping people by a term they dislike. but i'm going to in this case. cis people, whether i call them that or not, are a coherent group and i have to identify that group to talk about trans issues. i think someone threw out "biological male or female" as an alternative, but that has the same issue as calling cis people normal. also, i can't quite grasp how i'd use that in a sentence where i want to refer to people who identify with their assigned sex at birth.

i suspect the deeper issue behind the terminology is that cis people don't want to be talked about as a group of people among other groups. the culture we're raised in tells us that cis people are the only people. when you hear about trans people, it's something that's tacked on to your worldview, and so we're considered to be a departure from normal people. calling people who identify with their assigned sex "cis" instead of "normal" is a challenge to that, and i understand it can be upsetting, but i'm not willing to accept that cis people are the default.

and i guess i'm continuing my explanation of trans politics & ontology, because if i don't i know what the first reply is going to be.... yes, the majority of the population is cis, i'm aware. i don't think that means that our culture got it spot on and figured out all the characteristics that normally correspond to each set of genitals. i think it means that people tend to embrace what they're conditioned to believe is true. especially when that truth is violently enforced... interestingly, the proportion of trans people is growing just as it's starting to become socially acceptable.

my point is that gender (as well as sex but thats another argument) is in the culture, not in our bodies. the system of two genders that we're familiar with isn't some objective fact. it's the reality of our current culture, but keep in mind that european culture attempted and still attempts to destroy all alternative systems of gender


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## Beegod Santana

Non-binary can mean that you associate with more than one gender and that you can identify as different genders at different times or as multiple genders at the same time. Or that you identify with no gender at all. I can't speak for the OP but I would consider Trans/femme/non-binary to mean does not associate with gender assigned at birth, identifies as femme more than not, but also identifies as other genders at various times. Keep in mind non-binary gender goes way beyond "male and female" and includes all (18 I think now) recognized genders and any new ones that my have emerged. Simple as pie.


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## Older Than Dirt

@feralautistic Thank you for the thoughtful and helpful post.

I still do not see why the immediately clear "non trans" isn't a better way to refer to people who are not trans, rather than using a term many are unfamiliar with. I get the ideological point of not defining "not trans" as a "default state", and marking the previously unmarked category of "not trans".

Gender is a cultural formation, sure. Most things are. it is not hard to convince an anthropologist of this, since that is the basic insight of anthropology.

But it isn't a cultural formaton created out of nowhere. The gender binary comes from the fact that there are two and only two biological sexes, and that only females can get pregnant or bear children, and that males, are _on average_ stronger and more prone to violence than biological females.

Yes, i am aware that not all females are able to get pregnant and/or bear children, and not all males are stronger or more violent than all females. Yes, i am also aware that a fraction of a percent of people are intersex.

None of this biology stuff has anything to do with how anyone wants to live their life, have sex, or present themselves to others, of course.

I wonder if you did not mean to define "trans" as "someone who rejects their assigned _gender_"? I don't think it is possible to reject one's sex as determined (not, actually, assigned) at birth.

Sex, as i'm certain you know, is a biological fact, not a cultural formation like gender. It is reflected externally in genitals (and other things after puberty), and males and females have different chromosomes. 

A newborn's sex is not some idle opinion from the physician who delivered that child- it is an objective fact.


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## WyldLyfe

Don't got heaps of time right now butll respond a bit before this thread may get shut down. Thanks every ONE for sharing. My posts are not intent to be offensive but to point out things and share. 



SlankyLanky said:


> I read yer post twice, I'm admittedly not a smart person, but da fuq? Seriously? Can we keep the pseudo hippy "rub some wheatgrass on it and it'll be fine" stuff out of this thread? I don't think anyone is "trying to impose there will" on you by being trans. It's kinda just somebody asking real nice if you could not be a asshole and you going "nah I'm good".
> 
> I don't understand where the person calling you a fag has any relevance to being trans, or yer understanding of trans people's feelings, or really has anything to do with this topic besides you got called a fag and then told someone to fuck off.



OK slank firstly I'm not a hippy but if you call me that, fine, no big deal. I agree an get that if someone wants to be called something it's not an issue, it's like a nickname. However when iv spoken to trans people that I've known, two, iv mostly just called them by there birth names and they seem ok with this to. The issues come when it effects society or aspects of society in larger ways, all things grow and evolve over time.. Examples..

There has been a trans mma fighter, fallen fox who was/is a man who just one day said he identifies as a woman so they allowed him to go into the octagon and beat the shit outta women... It's funny how even tho trans n feminists claim to be trying to help each other things like this can happen. 

And now in some schools lgbt classes are taught, not a one time visit type thing where someone comes in an explains there story, but like classes, there's videos on YouTube. So when lgbt went from a support group to going into schools to try install there ideology into the minds of other people's young children they most certainly crossed a line and became just another cult. Similar things have happened when Christians/Catholics took children from other cultures to "educate" them about there ways which to them where only right. Parents both religious and non religious have removed children from schools because of this, now some may say they are bigots ect.. some may be, and some may just not want the children to become people who may harm themselves, have a hard time or commit suicide. Schools are run by the state so now we know who's behind this too. 

If some one in the street went up to young kids to talk to them about sex and stuff they crossed a line... Just let kids be kids most of us at that age where just running around an playing in dirt. If parents want to teach there own kids things fine. 

Imagine if all this got to some out of control level and someone kills and cannabilises/eats someone and then they r like "no sorry guys I identify as a tiger" then everyone is like "oh.. Well that's ok guys, his a tiger" that's a stretch but still, the same mentality amplified. 

Like I said the states behind this and they get these groups to fight amongst themselves an divide people. Feminist hate men mgtow men hate women, men and women should be a team, the only reason there's a gender pay gap Btw, is cause on average men work more hours an on average men work more dangerous jobs. 

After doing a bit a research from wikipedia: "Gender dysphoria (GD) is the distress a person feels due to a mismatch between their gender identity and the and there sex assigned at birth people who experience gender dysphoria are typically trans gender" 

And of you click the link into it, it says there can be a difference apparently from someone who feels distress and someone who doesn't but from Crocs video the woman there seemed distressed to when she said "I don't feel safe in my body".... but at the same time that's modern western psychology tho.. Which isn't very deep And western medicine is mostly just about making money off people too. 

Also according to Matt Derrick the owner of the site this is a place for everyone, but there's a mod here SlankyLanky saying "stop with the hippy talk"and it's ok? Imagine if he had said "stop with the trans or lgbt talk" instead. Even Older then dirt keeps telling ScarletMoutain to shut up, when his just sharing n making good points. Everything is energy, nothing is really "solid or physical" it's all energy vibrating at a certain frequency. Even Nikola Tesla said "If you wish to understand the universe think in terms of energy, vibration and frequency" he wasn't a hippy he was a scientist. 

To Emma or anyone else who didn't really grasph the concept of natural law. 

Human belief is is completely irrelevant when it comes to natural law, just as it is irrelevant in relation to any of the other laws of nature such as gravity, momentum, thermodynamics or electromagnetism. Similar to such other workings of nature the workings of natural law require no belief in order for them to be discovered and known. 

Thanks humans.


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## Deleted member 125

WyldLyfe said:


> Don't got heaps of time right now butll respond a bit before this thread may get shut down. Thanks every ONE for sharing. My posts are not intent to be offensive but to point out things and share.
> 
> 
> 
> OK slank firstly I'm not a hippy but if you call me that, fine, no big deal. I agree an get that if someone wants to be called something it's not an issue, it's like a nickname. However when iv spoken to trans people that I've known, two, iv mostly just called them by there birth names and they seem ok with this to. The issues come when it effects society or aspects of society in larger ways, all things grow and evolve over time.. Examples..
> 
> There has been a trans mma fighter, fallen fox who was/is a man who just one day said he identifies as a woman so they allowed him to go into the octagon and beat the shit outta women... It's funny how even tho trans n feminists claim to be trying to help each other things like this can happen.
> 
> And now in some schools lgbt classes are taught, not a one time visit type thing where someone comes in an explains there story, but like classes, there's videos on YouTube. So when lgbt went from a support group to going into schools to try install there ideology into the minds of other people's young children they most certainly crossed a line and became just another cult. Similar things have happened when Christians/Catholics took children from other cultures to "educate" them about there ways which to them where only right. Parents both religious and non religious have removed children from schools because of this, now some may say they are bigots ect.. some may be, and some may just not want the children to become people who may harm themselves, have a hard time or commit suicide. Schools are run by the state so now we know who's behind this too.
> 
> If some one in the street went up to young kids to talk to them about sex and stuff they crossed a line... Just let kids be kids most of us at that age where just running around an playing in dirt. If parents want to teach there own kids things fine.
> 
> Imagine if all this got to some out of control level and someone kills and cannabilises/eats someone and then they r like "no sorry guys I identify as a tiger" then everyone is like "oh.. Well that's ok guys, his a tiger" that's a stretch but still, the same mentality amplified.
> 
> Like I said the states behind this and they get these groups to fight amongst themselves an divide people. Feminist hate men mgtow men hate women, men and women should be a team, the only reason there's a gender pay gap Btw, is cause on average men work more hours an on average men work more dangerous jobs.
> 
> After doing a bit a research from wikipedia: "Gender dysphoria (GD) is the distress a person feels due to a mismatch between their gender identity and the and there sex assigned at birth people who experience gender dysphoria are typically trans gender"
> 
> And of you click the link into it, it says there can be a difference apparently from someone who feels distress and someone who doesn't but from Crocs video the woman there seemed distressed to when she said "I don't feel safe in my body".... but at the same time that's modern western psychology tho.. Which isn't very deep And western medicine is mostly just about making money off people too.
> 
> Also according to Matt Derrick the owner of the site this is a place for everyone, but there's a mod here SlankyLanky saying "stop with the hippy talk"and it's ok? Imagine if he had said "stop with the trans or lgbt talk" instead. Even Older then dirt keeps telling ScarletMoutain to shut up, when his just sharing n making good points. Everything is energy, nothing is really "solid or physical" it's all energy vibrating at a certain frequency. Even Nikola Tesla said "If you wish to understand the universe think in terms of energy, vibration and frequency" he wasn't a hippy he was a scientist.
> 
> To Emma or anyone else who didn't really grasph the concept of natural law.
> 
> Human belief is is completely irrelevant when it comes to natural law, just as it is irrelevant in relation to any of the other laws of nature such as gravity, momentum, thermodynamics or electromagnetism. Similar to such other workings of nature the workings of natural law require no belief in order for them to be discovered and known.
> 
> Thanks humans.



I don't have either the time or the patience to part by part tell you how fucked and wrong you are. If my experience with stp has taught me anything it's that I'm sure there's somebody willing to point out every bullshit thing you just typed with some well thought out on point response, but that ain't me. Yer fucked, that nonsense I just read is some fox news shit for real dude.


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## Deleted member 125

@WyldLyfe as lenient as the staff has been in this thread for the purpose of being educational for people who may not be as in the know about trans people, don't for a second think that this is a welcoming place for yer bigoted attitude. You seem to have no questions or inquiries but instead have some real shifty views on trans people. Hate speech will not be tolerated.


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## MFB

Ive kept tabs on this thread, and read a lot of it, but not all, as there are a lot of long winded posts. Ive had no desire to post mainly bc I think its mostly easy to be decent to ppl, especially if theyre decent to you and others. Wanna be friends?

But Wildlyfe does bring up an interesting wrinkle in the emergence of the trans community by mentioning the M to F MMA fighter.

Its a bit off topic of pronouns but I think still fits here.

I'm a huge sports fan in general, but absolutely love tennis. In the 70s and early 80s there was a M to F tennis player. Renee Richards. The Tennis Association banned her, said she couldnt play womens tennis, she sued, she won, she got to play and did really well in some Majors in her mid 40s. Later in her life she was quoted as saying if she had been younger no genetic woman would have been able to come close to her on the tennis court.
Which is spot on true.
So thats the question Im posing.
As trans ppl become more prevalent and integrated into our mainstream is it fair for the governing bodies of sports to restrict M to Fs against genitic females when theres a clear advantage for them?

A friend and I were also discussing whats right about the public toilet debate and who's rights belong where; as in is it right for a 6'1 non pass trans person to use the womens room and possibly frighten some younger girls that dont understand, or is it right for that person to use the mens room despite identifying as a woman. The vast majority of parks, stadiums, etc are still only set up w mens and womens.

Or is that all still to far down the road... And we should just focus on the semantics and being nice part?


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## Eng JR Lupo RV323

@WyldLyfe Ahh yes the Fallon Fox argument, you must watch a lot of JRE podcast. Let me guess; biologically born males have stronger frames/muscles/broader shoulders/larger fists therefore it's unfair they're allowed to fight women just because they identify as women themselves now.. is that the argument? Ashley Evans-Smith beat that ass tho! Doesn't that sort of make it a moot point?

Also, what just happened? It seemed like we were on a nice pace here, people were being respectful and learning new ways of looking at things. Shit was pretty harmonious, you could almost taste the progress and then all of a sudden we're back in the 50's again in one post.


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## EmmaAintDead

I'm trans and there's no way in fuck I could beat any MMA fighter in a fight under any circumstances. The question asker is not trans, and there's no way in fuck he could beat any MMA fighter in a fight. The great equalizer in competition is discipline. Not genitals.

Also, bathrooms are for making your peeps and poops. If you don't want to be bothered while pissing at the Red Sox game, don't start talking to or about anyone else who is also there to piss. If you can't handle pooping around other people, hold it til you get home.

Edit:

Genuinely, the bathroom thing confuses me to no end. We're all here to do our shame. If you think your child will get confused, then talk to your child. If you, a full grown adult, are going to get angry about who goes poop where, you have some serious re-evaluation of priorities to consider. Piss and let piss.


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## Deleted member 125

@EmmaAintDead you neglected to touch on the chance of someone eating somebody making a smudge and getting away with it because they identify as a caca loving tiger...since that's apparently a real concern.


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## Deleted member 24782

MFB said:


> Ive kept tabs on this thread, and read a lot of it, but not all, as there are a lot of long winded posts. Ive had no desire to post mainly bc I think its mostly easy to be decent to ppl, especially if theyre decent to you and others. Wanna be friends?
> 
> But Wildlyfe does bring up an interesting wrinkle in the emergence of the trans community by mentioning the M to F MMA fighter.
> 
> Its a bit off topic of pronouns but I think still fits here.
> 
> I'm a huge sports fan in general, but absolutely love tennis. In the 70s and early 80s there was a M to F tennis player. Renee Richards. The Tennis Association banned her, said she couldnt play womens tennis, she sued, she won, she got to play and did really well in some Majors in her mid 40s. Later in her life she was quoted as saying if she had been younger no genetic woman would have been able to come close to her on the tennis court.
> Which is spot on true.
> So thats the question Im posing.
> As trans ppl become more prevalent and integrated into our mainstream is it fair for the governing bodies of sports to restrict M to Fs against genitic females when theres a clear advantage for them?
> 
> A friend and I were also discussing whats right about the public toilet debate and who's rights belong where; as in is it right for a 6'1 non pass trans person to use the womens room and possibly frighten some younger girls that dont understand, or is it right for that person to use the mens room despite identifying as a woman. The vast majority of parks, stadiums, etc are still only set up w mens and womens.
> 
> Or is that all still to far down the road... And we should just focus on the semantics and being nice part?



I have no valuable input here except I secretly love using the single use womens bathroom when they are empty, and there are men waiting in line at the other, yeehaw!!!


----------



## benton

This seems like a good time to address the "t-word": TESTOSTERONE.

I have seen mention in this thread and other places the idea that I am a boy/man because when I was born, a doctor observed my genitals and declared "it's a boy!" and by implication I was socialized to behave as a male in society because of this declaration when perhaps if left to my own devices I would have behaved differently. This is my understanding of the idea and may not be wholly correct. I certainly acknowledge the reality in which some behavior is shaped and influenced to varying degrees by the people around us and society at large.

As an aside, not everyone is born in a hospital. Especially if we are talking worldwide and not just the US.

As a biological male who identifies strongly as male and always has, I would assert that the much greater reason for this than a doctor looking at my junk and saying some words is the fact that I was flooded with testosterone in the womb and when I went thru puberty my testicles began producing large amounts of testosterone, and this hasn't stopped even to this day at the age of 44 (yes I've had my levels checked).

When humans compete with one another, many factors contribute to who ends up being victorious. It is my assertion that the most relevant factor in competition is testosterone. We can talk about society and environment and how expectations shape behavior and all of that. What we can't do is point to a biological female world chess champion, or a biological female who is the best poker player in the world (there are certainly many top biological female chess players and poker players, of course).

We are not going to see a biological female world chess champion, and we are not going to see a biological female become the best in the world at poker. (In fact, in the history of the World Series of Poker I think a woman has only made the Main Event final table once, and the WSOP ME Champ isn't necessarily considered the best player in the world).

There will never be a biological female Bobby Fischer or Garry Kasparov because biological females cannot produce enough testosterone to defeat top biological male players. This is not my opinion - it is the reality.

I've also heard a few different places that someone's friend who is trans and is taking testosterone "has more testosterone than a biological male." Yeah, the weak girly men perhaps.

There is no crossover in testosterone levels between biological males and biological females. Assuming everyone is healthy with respect to their endocrine systems, the biological males who make the least testosterone will have exponentially higher levels than the biological females who make the most testosterone.

Testosterone levels for biological males are wide: something like between 250 ng/dl and 1000 ng/dl. A biological female who supplements testosterone to produce levels at the upper end of the normal biological male range is going to experience harmful side effects. Whereas biological males at the upper end will not because their bodies are naturally producing large amounts of testosterone.

So a biological female can take all the testosterone she wants and she will never have as much in her bloodstream on a consistent basis as I do, and the high levels are good for my health and bad for hers.

P.S. I think saying "biological males are stronger than biological females" is not specific enough. There are absolutely ways in which biological females are stronger than biological males. For example, there was a 250 mile footrace and a biological female won the race by 10 hours. Also, I am not a scientist but it is my understanding that biological females have stronger blood-brain barriers than biological males.


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## Beegod Santana

So I hate to say it, but this has gone way beyond the subject of pronouns (yes, I realize I'm a little guilty of derailing too). Maybe there should be an "ask a trans person" or "things that confuse me about trans culture" thread or something along those lines.


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## Matt Derrick

benton said:


> This seems like a good time to address the "t-word": TESTOSTERONE.
> 
> I have seen mention in this thread and other places the idea that I am a boy/man because when I was born, a doctor observed my genitals and declared "it's a boy!" and by implication I was socialized to behave as a male in society because of this declaration when perhaps if left to my own devices I would have behaved differently. This is my understanding of the idea and may not be wholly correct. I certainly acknowledge the reality in which some behavior is shaped and influenced to varying degrees by the people around us and society at large.
> 
> As an aside, not everyone is born in a hospital. Especially if we are talking worldwide and not just the US.
> 
> As a biological male who identifies strongly as male and always has, I would assert that the much greater reason for this than a doctor looking at my junk and saying some words is the fact that I was flooded with testosterone in the womb and when I went thru puberty my testicles began producing large amounts of testosterone, and this hasn't stopped even to this day at the age of 44 (yes I've had my levels checked).
> 
> When humans compete with one another, many factors contribute to who ends up being victorious. It is my assertion that the most relevant factor in competition is testosterone. We can talk about society and environment and how expectations shape behavior and all of that. What we can't do is point to a biological female world chess champion, or a biological female who is the best poker player in the world (there are certainly many top biological female chess players and poker players, of course).
> 
> We are not going to see a biological female world chess champion, and we are not going to see a biological female become the best in the world at poker. (In fact, in the history of the World Series of Poker I think a woman has only made the Main Event final table once, and the WSOP ME Champ isn't necessarily considered the best player in the world).
> 
> There will never be a biological female Bobby Fischer or Garry Kasparov because biological females cannot produce enough testosterone to defeat top biological male players. This is not my opinion - it is the reality.
> 
> I've also heard a few different places that someone's friend who is trans and is taking testosterone "has more testosterone than a biological male." Yeah, the weak girly men perhaps.
> 
> There is no crossover in testosterone levels between biological males and biological females. Assuming everyone is healthy with respect to their endocrine systems, the biological males who make the least testosterone will have exponentially higher levels than the biological females who make the most testosterone.
> 
> Testosterone levels for biological males are wide: something like between 250 ng/dl and 1000 ng/dl. A biological female who supplements testosterone to produce levels at the upper end of the normal biological male range is going to experience harmful side effects. Whereas biological males at the upper end will not because their bodies are naturally producing large amounts of testosterone.
> 
> So a biological female can take all the testosterone she wants and she will never have as much in her bloodstream on a consistent basis as I do, and the high levels are good for my health and bad for hers.
> 
> P.S. I think saying "biological males are stronger than biological females" is not specific enough. There are absolutely ways in which biological females are stronger than biological males. For example, there was a 250 mile footrace and a biological female won the race by 10 hours. Also, I am not a scientist but it is my understanding that biological females have stronger blood-brain barriers than biological males.



What does any of this have to do with the subject of this thread?


----------



## salxtina

Most of what could occupy an "ask trans people" thread has either been answered a million times already, so maybe ask an archivist/librarian/educator/search engine, or is best screened by the asked first asking them self, "Is this any of my business at all?"


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## Older Than Dirt

@salxtina - It's the craziest thing, i know, but sometimes, when folks are invited to talk about a thing, say on an internet discussion forum, sometimes they talk about that thing. Nutty and inappropriate, i know, but what can you do?

And, since as you point out, there have been lots of threads here about trans issues, is it possible your problems with this thread aren't so much with folks talking about trans issues, but people who say things you don't like talking about this stuff?

i guess in your ideal world, only people who agree with you would be allowed to speak? And of course you would be in charge of deciding whose business it is to discuss any topic?


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## dumpster harpy

It's not that you shouldn't be allowed to speak, it's that you grew up in an inherently transphobic culture and should have the decency to listen to what trans people are saying to you instead of being a willfully uninformed dickhead.


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## roughdraft

dumpster harpy said:


> It's not that you shouldn't be allowed to speak, it's that you grew up in an inherently transphobic culture and should have the decency to listen to what trans people are saying to you instead of being a willfully uninformed dickhead.



isn't it you that's lacking decency to slam people for being "willfully uninformed <insert reducing someone to a single body part here>" when they genuinely inquire about something, maybe just maybe with the intent to understand?


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## dumpster harpy

Is that what you think is happening?


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## roughdraft

all i think is that *maybe* you're biased and oughta give people outside of LGBTQ culture a chance to learn instead of assuming everyone is out to diminish transfolk


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## dumpster harpy

and all I'm saying is that the opportunity to learn is everywhere and no one is keeping you from it. but the society we live in is inherently transphobic, and regardless of intention a lot of the shit cis people say about trans people and trans issues is fucked up. and so when someone pulls this condescending 'trans people are policing me' argumentative bullshit when people tell them that they're being jerks, I've already given them more than a chance, and can't really say more than_ stop being an asshole._


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## Older Than Dirt

@dumpster harpy - Well, i _have_ been listening to what trans, and other, people have been saying, and have done a fair amount of reading to learn more about issues raised here. I have actually learned a bit, something you might want to consider, comrade.

So i may well be uninformed, but it's not sure not willful. And i certainly have not beeen abusive or posted anything like your posts.

Once more time, the _only_ people using abusive language here have been trans folks towards us non-trans folk who dare question their authority to control and determine our speech, and thoughts.

I'm pretty sure i'd be banned in a heartbeat if i used equally abusive, sexually-charged language towards a trans person in this thread (not that i have any inclination to do this, this is a hypothetical statement).

Of course calling _me_ a "willfully uninformed dickhead" is totally cool because , um, why again?

i _know_ it's totally cool because i've already been called an "asshole" etc. in this thread, and mods are cool with it. Double standards much?

oh, @dumpster harpy called me an "asshole" and a "jerk" too, while i was typing this. Nice.


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## feralautistic

@Older Than Dirt I don't think you recognize how much the things you say hurt trans people. believe it or not, this thread would be less painful to read if it was full of people calling me an asshole rather than full of transmisogyny


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## Older Than Dirt

I just reread my last few posts after reading what you said, @feralautistic .

Can you please identify the things i have said that are "full of transmisogyny"? Because i think that is a pretty false statement. I am glad to hear you don't think i hate trans men as well, or did you just forget to say that?

I have no wish to be hurtful, and no ill-will towards trans folks, and certainly have not posted anything here out of any desire to make anyone feel bad. i haven't known many trans folks at all well, maybe four or five in my life, but i've liked all i've known, which is a lot more than i can say about heterosexuals, gay men, or lesbians.

i'm pretty sure you know there are a lot of people who really do hate trans folks. Conflating me, a person ready to fight for your rights and life any old time, with them may not be the most useful strategy?


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## Eng JR Lupo RV323

@Older Than Dirt Yeah just to be clear, mods aren't cool with @dumpster harpy calling you a dickhead, asshole or jerk. That begins to come off like a one sided flame war which is definitely against the rules. It was stated by OP on the first page and stated again by a mod that we need to keep this civil and it's been repeated since then as well. And besides, name calling is pretty immature and counter productive if you're trying to help someone learn.

I won't pretend to act like I understand why people are upset because I haven't walked in those shoes to truly understand how hard it's gotta be. But I definitely understand that people _are_ upset and I don't blame you for being upset. I think given the way this thread has gone.. it's fair to be upset with both some of the contributors and also [USERGROUP=17]@Staff[/USERGROUP] because we probably haven't collectively handled this with absolute non-bias, dude it's a fucking hard position to play.

First of all, staff are numerous different people, we're all individuals. So that's already a challenge, we're not all going to feel the exact same way about practically anything. Maybe similar opinions but unlikely identical opinions/stances across the board. Also, we don't get paid for this I'm not sure if anyone realizes that or not. We're just trying to do the best we can. Some threads are a breeze, some are daunting AF like this one.

We have people in this discussion on one side who have been marginalized and tortured, I mean even killed just for being the person they are. Who are told they're wrong, they're disrespected and ridiculed by a huge percentage of the general population. So duh, they're going to be pissed off about some shit. I can't even blame em. If someone told me it was wrong for me to be me I'd be all sorts of protesting that bullshit.

Then there's some people on the other side of this discussion who are coming off as though they're not even open to the possibility of allowing their opinions to change even if a strong argument has been made that opposes their own, they're just not budging. You need to get off this thread entirely if you're not willing to accept the possibility that some of your views might not be as awesome as you've thought up until now. Open up your mind or close the fucking thread.

Can we just try to be a little more patient, on all sides here? Nobody HAS to participate in this discussion. So stop yourself before you make your comment, perhaps reread what you've written and ask yourself is this on topic? Is this contributing to the discussion? Have I insulted anyone or called them names? Is there another way I can call someone out on their shit without being so harsh. Also remember the subject is about pronouns, I think that's important. People are getting way off target.

Take it down a couple notches, everyone. <3


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## feralautistic

Older Than Dirt said:


> I just reread my last few posts after reading what you said, @feralautistic .
> 
> Can you please identify the things i have said that are "full of transmisogyny"? Because i think that is a pretty false statement. I am glad to hear you don't think i hate trans men as well, or did you just forget to say that?
> 
> I have no wish to be hurtful, and no ill-will towards trans folks, and certainly have not posted anything here out of any desire to make anyone feel bad. i haven't known many trans folks at all well, maybe four or five in my life, but i've liked all i've known, which is a lot more than i can say about heterosexuals, gay men, or lesbians.
> 
> i'm pretty sure you know there are a lot of people who really do hate trans folks. Conflating me, a person ready to fight for your rights and life any old time, with them may not be the most useful strategy?



to clarify: you're far from the worst here, i don't think you're especially transmisogynistic compared to many people. it's just that _the entirety of society_ is transphobic and transmisogynistic. when trans people are hurt it's just business as usual, a difference of opinions. "a difference of opinions" can mean anything, are all opinions okay? 

i've been very rude in this thread, but that's the level of discourse i was reading. you seem to consider my words more offensive than your own. i disagree, i think they're probably about the same. (and i've certainly been kinder than necessary to others here!) there are people who want to learn, and there are people who want to show off opinions they already have. i find that being rude reveals what people actually think....


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## Older Than Dirt

@feralautistic - thanx i guess, "far from the worst" i'll settle for.

Yes, _of course_ "all opinions are OK", or rather yeah some opinions suck, but even the worst, most moronic, evil assholes on earth have a right to their opinions and to express them with words.

"The remedy for bad speech is more speech". Shutting up folks with "bad opinions" has seldom gone well.

Leaving aside the Nazis, Stalin etc, for many years in the US censorship laws were used to suppress information about sexuality, birth control etc.

When feminist legal scholar Katherine Mackinnon convinced Canada to pass obscenity laws based on her "porn is violence against women" theory, the first people prosecuted were gay and lesbian publishers.

When i got called a faggot in school, my mom reminded me "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me".

Yeah, i'm heterosexual, but that never stopped homophobic assholes calling me "long-haired faggot" until i cut my hair in 1977, and became a "punk-rock faggot". I've also been beaten down by four young Mafia wannabes with bats for being a "gay boy". Fortunately i have a very thick skull.


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## salxtina

Mods - If I wrote saying that it should be accepted for me to write (generic racial slur) here, would I simply be asked to stop, or would that content be removed? I think the latter has often been done - Can we apply the same standard here, so our most-prominent conversation about trans rights that lgbt people using the space see, isn't full of one of the most common epithets used by bashers/abusers/etc?


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## feralautistic

wow, it's really sobering to realize that I've been preventing people from expressing their opinions. I guess that's why nobody's been arguing with me.

seriously though, do you actually believe me saying mean things is equivalent to state censorship?


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## Older Than Dirt

@salxtina - Which transphobic "epithets" are those again, that this thread is "full of"?

Who has argued that "it should be accepted for [them] to write" transphobic slurs here?

Oh, right, no one at all.

Straw man much?

@feralautistic - of course you saying obnoxious things is not equivalent to state censorship. But some (including you) have said non-trans people should shut the fuck up, and _stop_ "arguing with you".

Telling others to shut up and that they have no right to speak means you agree it's OK to make folks shut up when they say things someone doesn't like- so you're just arguing with Nazis and Stalinists about content, but you agree with their methods- you just wish _you_ were in charge of the Speech Police.

I know freedom of speech isn't held in the same reverence among younger lefty folk as it is among us old commies/anarchs, but maybe that's because we grew up with a lot more experience of our speech being suppressed?


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## Eng JR Lupo RV323

salxtina said:


> Mods - If I wrote saying that it should be accepted for me to write (generic racial slur) here, would I simply be asked to stop, or would that content be removed? I think the latter has often been done - Can we apply the same standard here, so our most-prominent conversation about trans rights that lgbt people using the space see, isn't full of one of the most common epithets used by bashers/abusers/etc?



I'm a little unclear on exactly what you're trying to point out. Can you give an example or two by using the quoting feature, thanks.


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## feralautistic

@Older Than Dirt you're making stuff up at this point. come on, we're posting on a forum, i'm not going to send the trans police to your house. i just think you're embarrassing yourself.


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## Older Than Dirt

@feralautistic - Obviously. And equally obviously trans folks will not attain state power any time soon.

But your posts do not reveal any very great understanding of the dangers of telling folks to "shut the fuck up".

I am happy to embarrass myself sticking up for the absolute freedom of any asshole to express their opinions any day of the week.

Defending that asshole's right to their asshole opinions is how i get to legitimately demand the same right to speak freely for myself.

And of course this is a privately run form, and the First Amendment has nothing to do with how the owners and mods choose to run this place. It's private property after all.

But it would be a sad day indeed (at least in my mind) when "anarchists" start agreeing that its OK telling folks what they can, and cannot, say.


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## Eng JR Lupo RV323

Older Than Dirt said:


> Defending that asshole's right to their asshole opinions is how i get to legitimately demand the same right to speak freely for myself.
> 
> And of course this is a privately run form, and the First Amendment has nothing to do with how the owners and mods choose to run this place.
> 
> But it would be a sad day indeed (at least in my mind) when "anarchists" start agreeing that its OK telling folks what they can, and cannot, say.



I hate to break it to ya but that sad day came a long time ago and I don't think to many of us here are all that sad about it, never were. It's all right here in the upper portion of the site rules. So while many of the folks here identify as anarchists, there's definitely some sort of misunderstanding when it comes to what that means. Or maybe it means different things to different folks, idk. But I think around here what it *doesn't mean *is no rules/no rulers.

It doesn't mean we have to put up with everyone's shit. If someone is being a racist or homophobic or hateful towards a group of people or even an individual, we'll shut that shit down if we want to. You don't get to drop slurs at people unchecked, that doesn't fly here. Also, I personally don't identify as an anarchist. I don't imagine I'm the only one on this site that feels that way.

I definitely like a lot of what anarchism is about but I don't call myself an anarchist. So it's really not "anarchists agreeing that its OK telling folks what they can, and cannot, say." when you have numerous folks who don't 100% identify as anarchists here. We're just people, man. There's absolutely no way to generalize us all as any one certain thing other than people, I believe we're all people. We can't all be held to one particular ideology, you shouldn't hold us to any certain set of expectations other than what's written here and here.


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## feralautistic

i am indeed an anarchist, and J Lupo is right that anarchists i've known don't particularly worry about people telling others to shut up. if verbally encouraging people to not talk is suppressing free speech, then we're all guilty of that.


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## benton

dumpster harpy said:


> It's not that you shouldn't be allowed to speak, it's that you grew up in an inherently transphobic culture and should have the decency to listen to what trans people are saying to you instead of being a willfully uninformed dickhead.


those are opinions, and one is either inclined to agree with them or not, and whether this is good or bad is a matter of perspective

thankfully I live in a country that protects my right to express my views, which is why I would never call for your views to be silenced, or to discourage you from speaking for any reason whatsoever

We can have free speech and so-called hate speech, or we can get rid of free speech. Getting rid of free speech in the US will require the citizens to change the Constitution. Obviously the administrators of this message board get to decide what they will allow and won't allow. Myself, I'm the type that if you ask me not to address certain topics here I will probably abide by that given a choice.

I can tell you this. None of you will ever speak for me. Saying that I grew up in an inherently transphobic culture is ridiculous nonsense in my view. It was certainly homophobic. Transphobic? Nope. Why? Because we were all too ignorant to know what that meant. I'm from the olden days, and shit was a lot different back then. I was born in 1975 but it might as well have been 1955. We have seen a lot of changes in a short amount of time.

I've got no problem bowing out of this thread, and if you read my posts you may notice that I make no attempts to convince, persuade, or change peoples' views. It is my belief that people are either convinced or they are not, and this is something they do. Sadly, many do it to conform to people with authoritarian personality traits. I see several posts that I interpret as "that's the wrong viewpoint, here's the right viewpoint, and those who persist in the wrong viewpoint will be demeaned, dehumanized, ridiculed, and shunned." Which is fine with me, because I'm a hermit misanthrope who likes to be alone most of the time. But in the good ol USA under free speech, what you don't yet get to do is behave this way without some "dickhead" like me pointing out exactly what you are doing. (I realize I myself was not called a "dickhead" ).

I was literally subjected to brainwashing by a mind control cult (the Jehovah's Witnesses). One of their songs says "We're Jehovah's Witnesses / We speak out in fearlessness." So please understand that I was trained and brainwashed from the age of 2 to use all of my interactions to try to get people to become Jehovah's Witness cult members. I have gotten rid of most of the programming however the "speak out in fearlessness" part remains.

If I know something to be true and feel the need to address the topic, I am going to speak the truth REGARDLESS of how anyone claims it affects them. Period. If you tell me not to speak a certain way or say a certain thing that I know to be true because it will harm members of a group, I am still going to speak it, and that it not going to change until I draw my last breath and my heart stops beating.

In my opinion, this message board should go ahead and start censoring certain unpopular views because I think that's the way its headed, and it is my belief that amongst misfit travelers you are always going to have some people who are unwilling to conform. Question: What are you rebelling against? Answer: What have you got? I don't have to get with the new shit if I don't want to, and if you don't like it, that's your problem not mine.


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## dumpster harpy

You're too ignorant to understand what transphobia means, but have no problem touting freeze peach to continue engaging in it, as if your bigoted contrarian worldview was objective fact?

Go get fitted for some clown shoes.


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## benton

Ridicule is not a valid debate tactic, and I always know I've "won" when the personal attacks and name calling begin.

If you remove the word "contrarian" from your description I would assert that it applies neatly to my perception of your worldview.

Anyways, I'm gonna go ahead and declare victory and move along. If any of my actual arguments are ever refuted (and they won't be), please let me know.

Lastly, I am disinclined to acquiesce to your request.


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## dumpster harpy

Wow congrats on your victory and being the smartest guy in the room.

What some people can't seem to grasp is that this isn't some debate, this isn't some theoretical discussion happening in a vacuum.

You are talking about me. You are talking about us.

And again, when a person of the minority group you're running your mouth about tells you that you're being a bigoted asshole, you probably are, and should just maybe consider checking your ego and listening, even if it makes you uncomfortable to consider that you are being hurtful to others.


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## dumpster harpy

That you're approaching a discussion about how to respectfully address trans people as a debate for you to win says a lot.


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## salxtina

@Lupo The Pronouns Thread | Squat the Planet - https://squattheplanet.com/threads/the-pronouns-thread.39325/post-286087 and first post on page 4 and tenth post on page 4 and seventh post on page 5?


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## benton

dumpster harpy said:


> Wow congrats on your victory and being the smartest guy in the room.
> 
> What some people can't seem to grasp is that this isn't some debate, this isn't some theoretical discussion happening in a vacuum.
> 
> You are talking about me. You are talking about us.
> 
> And again, when a person of the minority group you're running your mouth about tells you that you're being a bigoted asshole, you probably are, and should just maybe consider checking your ego and listening, even if it makes you uncomfortable to consider that you are being hurtful to others.


I can tell you that I'm imagining a pink elephant. I cannot prove to you that I am imagining a pink elephant. It's the same with feelings and being offended. It comes down to whether or not I am willing to take someone's word for it.

I reject outright the notion that by living my life and expressing my views I am causing harm to others. I believe I asked earlier in the thread for this to be demonstrated and it didn't happen. I am not taking your word for it. You've got to "show your work" as I have done with respect to the views I have espoused in this thread.

Assuming for a moment that I'm "the smartest person in the room" (and certainly I am not), do you really think I got that way by feeding my ego and refusing to listen to people. You have no idea what I do with respect to my ego and no idea what I do or do not listen to. Its funny how people who seem to reject being told what to do and complain about being mistreated by society are so quick to call me names, attack me personally, speak to my experience, and give me orders. Who are you to tell me what to do? I'm not in here telling you what to do. Didn't a bunch of us choose to live the way we live in part because we reject the notion of being told what to do? By what power and authority do you issue commands and give dictates?

You can absolutely get many weak people who don't think for themselves and are easily led to follow your views and use ridicule, shame, and personal attacks to keep in line any of those who begin to stray from the currently accepted worldview. What you can't do is effectively use those same techniques on someone like me. "Never wrestle a pig, you both get muddy, and the pig likes it." I love to fight and I have no history of physical violence. This is the kind of fight that I like. I can do this all day.

The names you call me and your characterizations of the views (your opinions) I have expressed in this thread reflect on you, not me. Weak people who don't think for themselves can be convinced that I am what you say I am, but what is the relevance of that?

"You are talking about me. You are talking about us." I lack the wiring to be motivated or swayed by such an emotional and melodramatic statement. I understand that many people are wired to respond in specific ways to such a plea. However, I am not one of them. That's what I mean when I say I'm not into feelings. That statement just seems absolutely ridiculous to me. It's like fingernails on a chalkboard.

I've been running my mouth for 44 years and no one has managed to shut it yet. I don't expect it to be happening anytime soon. They might ban me from this message board and they might decide to censor many of the ideas that I have presented. I have no power over that. It's gonna be one way or the other here, though. I can guarantee it. Either people will be able to speak freely here or it will be a safe space where certain views are prohibited. It cannot and will not be both.


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## dumpster harpy

So someone (multiple someones, about whom you are speaking) tells you that you are being hurtful, and your response is to plug your ears and go _"lalala no I'm not!" a_nd then turn around and act like a victim because someone tells you that you're being a jerk and not listening?

Incredible...


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## dumpster harpy

Pleading with you to understand that you're negatively affecting trans people sounds like nails on a chalkboard?

My worldview is bigoted because I'm telling you that you're being a bigot? Seriously?

Is asshole even namecalling at this point?


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## benton

If I feel like you are bullying me, does that mean that you are in fact a bully?

A straight yes or no answer is preferred if possible.

Also, please demonstrate to me specifically and in as detailed a manner as possible how it is that I am negatively affecting transpeople. And if in the same manner I demonstrate that you are negatively affecting me, do you agree to adjust your speech and behaviors so as to avoid affecting me negatively in the future? (or do you wish for me to extend to you a courtesy that you are unwilling to extend to me?)


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## Older Than Dirt

Engineer J Lupo said:


> I hate to break it to ya but that sad day came a long time ago and I don't think to many of us here are all that sad about it, never were. It's all right here in the upper portion of the site rules. So while many of the folks here identify as anarchists, there's definitely some sort of misunderstanding when it comes to what that means. Or maybe it means different things to different folks, idk. But I think around here what it *doesn't mean *is no rules/no rulers.



Yeah, i get all that, that was what i meant by saying "And of course this is a privately run form, and the First Amendment has nothing to do with how the owners and mods choose to run this place."

The site rules rules don't seem to be enforced very evenhandedly, since _some_ folks are privileged to call others "assholes", "willfully ignorant dickheads", "jerks", say others should "shut the fuck up" etc., though, but it's your site and you are free to run it as you choose.

My saying "But it would be a sad day indeed (at least in my mind) when 'anarchists' start agreeing that its OK telling folks what they can, and cannot, say" was not directed at forum mods or owners, but at @feralautistic , who identifies as an anarchist (and who i rather like- a promising and clever young person), and others who _do_ identify that way:


feralautistic said:


> i am indeed an anarchist



I've been an anarchist for a very long time, and it is truly painful to me to hear folks mock "free speech", like this


dumpster harpy said:


> freeze peach



I would suggest that Comrades @feralautistic and @dumpster harpy might benefit from reading up a bit on anarchist history, particularly the role of the "Free Speech Fights" in IWW organizing. They might not be so quick to mock the right to think and speak freely.

I know times change, and the meanings of words change over time. Still, it's strange for me personally when young folks adopt aspects of my life and identity, like "punk" and "anarchism", but don't seem to understand what those things meant to us, or when these ideas are used to mean something quite different to what they meant in the past.

"Ignorance of your culture is not considered cool", as The Residents put it.

Why identify with a very old concept like "anarchism", when you clearly reject the most central aspect of anarchist thought (freedom, rebellion, refusing to be told what to do) as a core value? Generations of folks who fought and died for the black flag you want to wrap around speech policing, and thought control, are rolling over in their graves. Of course, anyone is free to call themselves whatever they want, and i get that calling yourself an anarchist is very trendy these days (it sure never was before in my life).

Do feel free to mock me for being old- it might happen to you too someday of course.

I can't imagine i have much else to say on the topic here, and i'm tired of having abuse directed at me for my thoughts, so i will gratify some and "shut the fuck up" about this topic.


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## Deleted member 24782

No offense I love you all but damn this is all starting to remind me of those dreadful house meetings I had to attend for the 9 months I lived in Portland. I want to contribute more to the discussion but I'm starting to feel depressed about it.

But just so it's clear to everyone @benton has declared victory.


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## dumpster harpy

so me telling someone that they're being a jerk, asshole, or dickhead (when they're being transphobic in a thread about respectful pronoun usage) is me abusing and policing them?

like everyone can come in here spouting off whatever offensive shit but when someone affected by it says they are being a _jerk_ (god forbid), now they're being policed, silenced, and abused?

@Older Than Dirt
free speech protects you from the government, not from the people. do you believe Nazis should speak and spread their views freely? do you think we can debate them away?

You are a product of a transphobic society, and if you can't even start respecting us enough to consider listening when told you are being a jerk, if you need to be convinced through debate of every time you hurt someone's feelings, or that your treatment of trans people is contigent on their not calling you on your shit, then you're not my fucking comrade.

I think maybe it's you who needs to learn more about anarchism, old man...



Oh and also congrats to benton


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## Eng JR Lupo RV323

#DragonBreath over here spittin fire. God damn! Again, can we try to keep the tone a little less aggressive? This entire thread has become a huge dumpster fire and I suspect if it continues this shit might get locked. I don't know if that's what everyone wants or not. I'm kind of for it at this point. Nobody's coming around from their way of thinking, nobody is budging. It's just unfriendly jostling back and forth at one another.

I agree with a lot of what you said in that last post @dumpster harpy but I'm not 100% convinced @Older Than Dirt is transphobic. Can we talk about the very definition of transphobia? I'm just some "CIS" jackass so I really don't know what it means other than what the definition of the word states; Transphobia - Dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

See, I just don't get that impression from Older Than Dirt. To me it seems like he's mentioned having friends that are trans, he's mentioned employing trans people at one point in his life, he hasn't really come out and said anything directly about trans people that comes off as dislike or prejudice, right? I'm sure someone will disagree.

What I'm seeing is more of a "Don't tell me how to speak, don't tell me how I feel. Definitely don't tell me to not speak at all". And I'm gonna go out on a limb here and even make the assumption he probably addresses trans people how they want to be addressed in his everyday life. I get the feeling he respects them that much, maybe I'm wrong. Am I wrong? Idk.. but again.. please try to keep calm, everyone. This thing is way too turnt up.


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## dumpster harpy

That's pretty fair. I'm not saying @Older Than Dirt is consciously transphobic or out to get anyone. What I'm trying to say is that much like how people can unintentionally engage in racism without being Nazis, a lot of people perpetuate transphobic attitudes even if they don't mean to (eg: railing about biological sex essentialism, saying faggot and tranny when they don't apply to you, etc)

so @Older Than Dirt, I'm not trying to paint you as a villain, I'm sorry for calling you a dickhead, and I'm asking you to consider what I and other trans people are saying to you, and to consider that your assertions of censorship and thought policing might be a little extreme in the context of upset marginalized people talking to you in a way that you don't like after you've offended them.


edit: also can I change my title to #DragonBreath?


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## Deleted member 24782

Yeah this thread is going to shit and getting real competitive. Let us all not forget Seymours line from Ghost World:

"People still hate each other. I guess they just know how to hide it better."

Let's face it, hate is less socially acceptable these days, but it doesn't mean we all still have some hate in our hearts, we are only human, well except for @benton, he's been declared THE VICTOR!!!!!


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## Beegod Santana

On use of the word cis (to bring it back a little) I just wanna say this:

Wayy back (2004) when I first had someone refer to me that way it was as a negative and I had the same reaction a lot of people had here, I did not like it. First, it sounds like the sound I make when I correct a dog, not pleasant to the ears. Second, I, like a lot of people here have never felt like I fit in with mainstream society and was not happy to be grouped in with all the other assholes out there. Like, I might be cis, but I don't feel like I have much in common with the stereotype most people imagine when they think "average cis male." 

These days though I use it all the time without even thinking about it. Why? Cause when you're talking to/or about trans people it is actually a lot easier than saying "not-trans" or "biological sex." Literally rolls off the tongue easier, try it. Also, like we talked about earlier it's used a lot in agriculture studies cause there's plenty of plants that are normally hermaphroditic or trans (change their sex over time) and the cis variations are the exceptions. Yes humans are "normally" "cis", but that not true all throughout nature, and there's almost always exceptions to the rules, so please cut it with the "natural law" nonsense.


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## salxtina

Lupo - I linked to the specific posts like you asked, and being calm while people act like one's basic rights are a fun theoretical debate, is actually really, really inappropriate. Not least because people can stay PERFECTLY DAMN CALM while reinforcing a dominant culture of transphobia, public hostility, the hiring and housing and med care discrimination that involves, on and on and on. Also calling people dickheads is way more lenient a response than is called for, to calling trans people confused, calling people ignorant for not consenting to do unpaid research work as a prerequisite for respect, and so on.

Also - Every time we foster a culture where people's existence is always debatable, less and less of us find it possible or worth our time to use the space for the kind of communication that happens among allies, accomplices and fellow-travelers. The degree to which this has already happened is pretty huge. (Ironically - the non-lgbt men crying "censorship" can't possibly mean real censorship - with arrests, loss of jobs, housing, or the right to run their mouth on the street. The only possible backlash they might have to cry about, is this social chilling effect, a cultural space becoming less inviting to them! But it's not happening to them! It's only happening to us!)


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## Eng JR Lupo RV323

@salxtina I took a look at every single comment that you're asking to be censored, here they are for ease of access;

https://squattheplanet.com/threads/the-pronouns-thread.39325/post-286087https://squattheplanet.com/threads/the-pronouns-thread.39325/post-286181https://squattheplanet.com/threads/the-pronouns-thread.39325/post-286200https://squattheplanet.com/threads/the-pronouns-thread.39325/post-286251
Every single one of these with MAYBE the exception of the first one absolutely fall under;
STP Rules/Hate speech will not be tolerated/last paragraph

Which states;

"Remember, these boards are open to all walks of life and with that comes the need to respect them all. So please, leave your hate at the door. Also, we are not interested in censoring a negative slur if it's used in the context of a civil discussion. For example, we all know the difference between using the word 'nigger' in a discussion, and using it as hate speech towards someone. The latter will not be tolerated."

Even the exception, the very first post still isn't using it as hate speech towards someone. I believe Brodie genuinely didn't know it was a slur because he's heard numerous trans persons using it. Fuck I didn't know it was a slur until that all unfolded and my child is trans. I've never used the term because I just don't like the way the word sounds. I don't use it when discussing transmissions either because of the same reason. But now learning it's a slur will definitely keep me from using it.

Also if you follow the thread you'll see Brodie asking OP for confirmation on whether or not it's a slur, it's actually one of the other comments you're complaining about. He's like.. legit inquiring to learn if it's truly a slur and then upon OP explaining that it is.. he not only hasn't used it since then but he had these really nice things to say back to OP;

"EmmaAintDead You are a fantastic, thoughtful, beautiful writer and activist who has inspired me a great deal. I think you did a great job of coming full circle with this conversation and bringing some finality to this thread. Thank you. When I'm in Chicago next, I'm lookin' you up"

https://squattheplanet.com/threads/the-pronouns-thread.39325/post-286284
And you'd have us believe this person is transphobic and using hateful slurs against the trans community wouldn't you? Idk, he doesn't sound very transphobic to me. Seems to me he was uneducated about a word and he learned that it's a slur as this all unfolded and then discontinued to throw it around out of respect for trans people. This guy has been intimate with trans persons and you're still going after him like he's the enemy because of one misunderstanding of a single word.

Absolutely nothing you've publicly reported here goes against the rules. Actually while I'm on the subject, nothing you *ever* report seems to be against the rules. We receive more private reports from you than anyone else and we have to ignore 95% of them because they're baseless at least that often. You may want to take a look at that rules page and just get a little better understanding of it, it would be doing everyone a huge favor really.

I guarantee you I'm not the only one noticing this. It's been the subject of a discussion and it's annoying. Another thing, while I'm getting into your ass(<you should totally report that) is how often you'll dish out negative ratings at people. If you scroll down your activity feed, it's got more piles of poo given than the tenderloin. This was actually brought to my attention via PM from more than one user bothered by it.

So Idk, maybe while you're pointing the finger at others all the time for not playing nice.. perhaps you might consider practicing what you preach(so to speak) in that respect. Maybe it isn't everyone else that's always so offensive but rather it's you who's overly offended? That's my take on it anyway. Something you could ponder, or not. The poo emote reaction is right down there on the right, it probably looks like a worn out button to you.. feel free to use it now.


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## Maxnomad

Getting on salxtina's shit for maybe having a tone seems pretty absurd at this point in the game. Being able to come across calm or polite isn't in itself a virtue


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## Eng JR Lupo RV323

None of that was about tone and calmness doesn't need to be a virtue for us to ask it of people.


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## Maxnomad

Engineer J Lupo said:


> So Idk, maybe while you're pointing the finger at others all the time for not playing nice.. perhaps you might consider practicing what you preach(so to speak) in that respect





Engineer J Lupo said:


> None of that was about tone and calmness


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## Eng JR Lupo RV323

Did you follow the context? Jump back to the paragraph that leads into the one you're quoting. I'm talking about constantly reporting people for things that aren't even against rules and slinging shit at people in the form of emote reactions. Are we clear or do you still wanna do this?


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## Maxnomad

I'm not sure how to get into this, because i don't want to make this a fight. But i think you're wrong, and i think it matters. Recognizing obvi that i'm only one perspective.

It doesn't matter what the previous paragraph said. That would have been a perfectly reasonable thing to address via pm. Brawling about un or marginally related complaints just serves to sustain a distinctly and particularly gendered power dynamic. There's a second language to all of these exchanges made up of timing, cadence, tone and irrelevant side remarks. The condescension from some of these post has been awkward. And what the fuck is up w that porn post? How is that in any way related? That was just weird. I think a lot of us dudes are threatened by public discussion or performance of queerness basically because we associate it with being bullied, or being a target. Ghosts of stigmas from like, middle school, and unfortunately the rest of life. And i think sometimes even radical and ally dudes can act on those unconscious habits and respond aggressively. It comes accross on the affective level, in posture and expression and on the internet in similarly nonverbal ways. And sometimes its time to just like, step down. Chill, in whatever way you do. It's a heated topic.


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## Maxnomad

Anyway, i don't speak for anyone else. This is just what occurs to me


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## Eng JR Lupo RV323

Maxnomad said:


> And sometimes its time to just like, step down. Chill, in whatever way you do. It's a heated topic.



Couldn't agree with you more. I know I've seen someone around here asking everyone to do that. It's great to see someone else gets it.


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## Beegod Santana

This pronouns shit changes over the years. It's not second nature, it does need to be explained to some people, and totally flipping out when someone asks a question, as redundant as it may be, doesn't help anyone. The OP literally said they started this thread for people to ask questions. The "I don't need to be civil because someone beat me up in middle school" line is childish to say the least. Saying that asking someone to be civil and follow the rules creates a "gendered power dynamic" is just a half assed away of trying to avoid responsibility for your words or actions. Trans people aren't powerless child/adult hybrids that need to be allowed to have tantrums in public like a 5 yr old.


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## roughdraft

Maxnomad said:


> I think a lot of us dudes are threatened by public discussion or performance of queerness basically because we associate it with being bullied, or being a target. Ghosts of stigmas from like, middle school, and unfortunately the rest of life.



I think this would be a great point for you to elaborate and expand on.

My personal take is that it's more about the composure of the individual who's expressing themselves. It's not about being queer or not, it's about maturity and ability to articulate yr point. Not all queer people are the same, same as in any demographic. why is it that i have to point that out here? Being part of a repressed demographic doesn't magically mean you are right all the time.

Take for example this thread: not at all the best example of public performance because it's just typing on a forum, but public discussion, sure that applies. You've got @EmmaAintDead and @croc who are awesome because they can express themselves coherently without cutting people down and assuming the worst, @salxtina and @dumpster harpy who both clearly need a glass of water, then @feralautistic who is somewhere in the middle.

anyway i don't see how you wanna lump all dudes into one type and all queer/etc. people into one group when it's more about the individual.


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## dumpster harpy

Yup I sure am the fucking worst for telling someone that they're being a jerk. What a hysterical and unreasonable monster I am.


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## salxtina

Lupo you asked what I was referring to so I provided those links as examples of where people kept writing t***** for no reason


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## Eng JR Lupo RV323

salxtina said:


> for no reason


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## feralautistic

kinda fucked up to rate queer people by how much shit they'll put up with


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## roughdraft

feralautistic said:


> kinda fucked up to rate queer people by how much shit they'll put up with



if yr referring to my post, i just pointed out from my perspective who has communicated themselves here in a way that has actually reached other people in a constructive way.

you painted it differently, but it's got nothing to do with being queer or not, or *rating* people like this is a gladiator arena or something. It's a matter of *how* people deal with shit and some people wanna just raaaaage instead of talking sense


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## feralautistic

@roughdraft it's interesting that you're only pointing out people who are here trying to speak for trans people's needs.

i keep saying this, other people keep saying this, but standards of "civility" aren't applied equally. or rather, you can be as transphobic and misogynistic as you like, but you're still considered civil as long as you don't call someone an asshole


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## roughdraft

feralautistic said:


> you can be as transphobic and misogynistic as you like, but you're still considered civil as long as you don't call someone an asshole



Okay, I agree that this right here is totally fucked and unfortunately very prevalent. the way i see it, certain people (esp those in power) chronically enable themselves to politick their way around silencing, diminishing and destroying certain people. Widespread fakeness and toxicity among people is very bad. And all hatred against people for something like gender is simply unwarranted to begin with, in my opinion. Granted I can't convince anyone else otherwise. Believe me I have tried and even heard such beautiful excuses such as "the reason i think all women are stupid is that it's the truth". Not the type of person I want in my life.

Unfortunately it doesn't do anyone any favors to fight fire with fire. But what do I know? Maybe I'm just a coward. It's an idea at least. "you gotta beat *them* at their own game". Believe me if I had my little way there'd be no need for any of this.

Anyway this is a very dense conversation that I really should have never stuck my nose in. I just think there have been some innocent inquiries on the part of *some of the*' cisgendered posters here that have been greatly misunderstood. Communication is at least sometimes very complicated, and yes that totally does read like an excuse to conceal bigoted viewpoints - but give me the benefit of the doubt


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## benton

feralautistic said:


> kinda fucked up to rate queer people by how much shit they'll put up with


Queer people aren't special people. They are people (like everyone else, right?)

People tend to get the exact level of shit that they will put up with.

I'll lay it all out there: I ain't with the new shit and I ain't getting with the new shit. I will continue my lifelong habit of not harming people around me irrespective of how they live their lives.

If someone thinks that makes me a jerk, that is THEIR OPINION and affects me to the exact level that I allow it to affect me.

There have been times that I referred to a biological male who wore dresses and asked to be referred to as "she" as "she" by my choice. I will continue to use he or she, or if necessary I will forgo the pronoun and use the person''s name.

I WILL NOT use "they" because it is plural and to me it is ridiculous to refer to an individual that way, as well as confusing. As far as non-binary and the other new shit, I'm not with it and I'm not going to get with it. Do whatever you want, but leave me out of it, and if you don't like it and think I'm a jerk, I can live with that.

As far as free speech protecting me from the government not the citizens, I have rarely had any issues speaking my mind in public while looking after my own safety.

Lastly, "hate" means "dislike and intense aversion" and is SUBJECTIVE. What I dislike and what you dislike are not necessarily the same, and we seem to increasingly be operating under a notion that there is a consensus with respect to what constitutes "hate," when in reality this is far from the case. Cancel culture and shunning and ostracizing people who do not conform to currently accepted ideas of hate only works if the individual being shunned actually cares about belonging to the group or not.


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## blank

Why do you guys keep feeding into a certain someone's persecution complex by responding? You never throw gas on a dumpster fire.


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## Beegod Santana

blank said:


> You never throw gas on a dumpster fire.



I actually met an ex-fireman in jail who was there for starting a bunch of dumpster fires and throwing gas on them is how he got them going. I know, I know, metaphors yo.


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## roughdraft

speaking of dumpster fire this little chat has been a wonderful experiment in trash fume inhalation


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## Anagor

Well ... It's perhaps good that we have this 1st world problems. Just saying ...

I mean there are countries in the world where woman are not allowed to drive. Where women are not allowed to leave the house without the company of either her husband or (if she is not married) with other male family members.

There are countries where being homosexual is a crime and sometimes can end up in a death sentence!

And even when it comes to other countries not being straight and "normal" can lead to harassment and more.

And here we are discussing the right pronouns on ten pages.

Well, nice that we don't have other problems.


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## EphemeralStick

Alright, when this thread started I didn't want to share my opinion. It seemed to me to be a conversation that I could learn from rather than voice my opinion or side. Sometimes it's better to just shut up and listen than to give input on things you aren't familiar with.

However considering what this has devolved to I feel I need to say something.

This conversation is not a debate. To the users who are treating it as such, enough. These are people sharing with you how they are mistreated by our society and just asking to be respected and yall can't even do that.

To the ones saying that trans folk need to be civil in defending their experience, shame on you. I highly doubt any of you remain civil when "yuppies", cops, or anyone else belittles what it's like to be homeless or on the road. We queer people have been targeted, assaulted, and disrespected for hundreds of years; trans folk have every right to be angry.

I am locking this thread. Not simply because users "can't get along" but because I am not gonna sit by and watch as the queer users have to defend their right to be respected by people who haven't the slightest idea of how much they have to put up with out there in the real world.

I'll be damned if they have to put up with it here.

I am also going to sticky this thread to the top of the sex and relationship forum so that future readers can glean some of the very useful knowledge that was presented here. As well as so that future readers will have an example of how some cis-people will never figure out basic empathy.


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