# Living In The Revolution?



## Bullet

So I basically copy/pasted this from the chatbox...I don't know if the original poster wants to be identified, but I put that person in italics. The regular font is my response. 

We were talking about that "feeling" that something big is about to happen, and what it means...(i.e. "the revolution"). Anyway, I was sorry the convo got cut short, so I'm putting it up here for anyone else to chime in with ideas and responses. I'm pretty interested in this thing but I don't usually give it much thought. It seems like a universal truth that I just accept so all my thoughts about it come pretty naturally. If you think I'm full of shit, I'd be interested in hearing that, too. All of it is just opinion, natch. 

So here it goes:


ive heard so many people from so many differnet walks of life talk about that feeling.
even a trucker in Little Rock who felt like there was some kind of violent revolution coming

_its a natural feeling no doubt_

yeah its called Unhappiness

_i wouldn't say its unhappy_

its being dissatified with the way things are
it creates a desire for change

_that might be one cause of it
i guess i can see where youre coming from when u put it that way_

i do think something is gonna happen on a mass scale, but theres no reason to wait around when you can just chose to live in whatever post-revolutionary state you think is gonna come

_i think that a massive shift of zeitgeist is going to happen soon_

i think youre right, but im not going to wait around for everyone else to start it and play along with whatever plan that is. i get that feeling and i change things.
but ill fucking be there when it happens
_
i'm sitting back and waiting to react based on what happens_

i couldnt live like that

_past six months i've felt detached from the world, like i'm just looking in from the outside
sounds like more of a reason for action than inaction_
_
i dont think it's going to be a physical action, though. i think that most revolutionaries right now are effete

i think its going to be some evolution in thinking_

hm im not sure i like that word choice...but also i disagree
_
more of a collective deep breath then a coup d etat_

well if thats true, which it may be...an advancement or change in thinking...

_i dont think a lot of revolutionaries are good at marketing themselves._

then i dont think its gonna happen all of a sudden
its up to people who have that feeling to do something. to change and start living like its already happened. thats whats going to create change
not waiting around for others.
i think you will be waiting a very long time.
_
i suppose that what it boils down to personally i that i just dont have any idea what to do
that the feeling i have is that a personal change is going to occur soon, not a large scale change
or perhaps it will be cause and effect_

i kind of have this vison like the womens uprising of the french revolution. where the fishwives all picked up weapons and stormed the castle.
i suppose a few of them planned it, but most just went along with it
like everyone just knew what to do all of a sudden
but obviously they all had this unsettled feeling for a long time in order to be willing to just blindly do that
so you just do what you have to do in your own life to improve things, and then one day maybe someone will give the shout

there is this thing that happens with people, in psychology...i cant remember what its called...
but basically, when there is a group of people, and one person is being hurt or in trouble, the group stands around and does nothing
because everyone is thinking "oh someone else will do something"
i think that is an analogy for whats happening now
everything sucks and no one likes it. and we're all waiting around for someone else to do somethin and save us all


_for me, im the person who's hurt or injured and i think im waiting for some group of people to help me_

_i dont think everything sucks. but i think a lot of things do. but thats never going to change. my happiness is likely not your happiness_

yeah i think we all kind of feel like that, lol

well yeah not everything sucks. personally im really happy and my life is fucking awesome. im wont for basically nothing


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## Rash L

be the change you want to see in the world... and stuff.

other than that, I feel really burnt out these days, perhaps that will change soon... things are always changing.


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## connerR

That was me in italics.  

Personally, I agree with Rash L. I need to revolutionize myself before anything else. Hence the "waiting around for a group to help me." I don't mean that in the "I'VE FOUND JESUS" kind of way, but I'm waiting for something to happen that makes me say: "I believe in this 100%." 

That's another big reason that I think most revolutionaries are effete. They're too caught up with the aesthetic.


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## Bullet

that's what I was trying to say- make your life better and then you WILL be living in the "revolutionized" world. It's not about everyone else changing, it's about you.


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## Mouse

this constant revolution makes me dizzy


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## IBRRHOBO

_zeitgeist..._rather interesting use of the german vernacular. along these lines there is a book entitled The Hundredth Monkey. it really deals with a paradigm shift, if you will, into a collective consciousness. probably greek to a lot of folks, so here's an excerpt for those of you who would like a good read on the psychology of bullet's chat:



> The Japanese monkey, Macaca fuscata, had been observed in the wild for a period of over 30 years.
> In 1952, on the island of Koshima, scientists were providing monkeys with sweet potatoes dropped in the sand. The monkeys liked the taste of the raw sweet potatoes, but they found the dirt unpleasant.
> An 18-month-old female named Imo found she could solve the problem by washing the potatoes in a nearby stream. She taught this trick to her mother. Her playmates also learned this new way and they taught their mothers too.
> This cultural innovation was gradually picked up by various monkeys before the eyes of the scientists.
> Between 1952 and 1958 all the young monkeys learned to wash the sandy sweet potatoes to make them more palatable.
> Only the adults who imitated their children learned this social improvement. Other adults kept eating the dirty sweet potatoes.
> Then something startling took place. In the autumn of 1958, a certain number of Koshima monkeys were washing sweet potatoes -- the exact number is not known.
> Let us suppose that when the sun rose one morning there were 99 monkeys on Koshima Island who had learned to wash their sweet potatoes.
> Let's further suppose that later that morning, the hundredth monkey learned to wash potatoes.
> THEN IT HAPPENED!
> By that evening almost everyone in the tribe was washing sweet potatoes before eating them.
> The added energy of this hundredth monkey somehow created an ideological breakthrough!
> But notice.
> A most surprising thing observed by these scientists was that the habit of washing sweet potatoes then jumped over the sea --
> Colonies of monkeys on other islands and the mainland troop of monkeys at Takasakiyama began washing their sweet potatoes.
> Thus, when a certain critical number achieves an awareness, this new awareness may be communicated from mind to mind.
> Although the exact number may vary, this Hundredth Monkey Phenomenon means that when only a limited number of people know of a new way, it may remain the conscious property of these people. But there is a point at which if only one more person tunes-in to a new awareness, a field is strengthened so that this awareness is picked up by almost everyone!


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## Bullet

You know, I considered adding in that 100th Monkey story, because it's pretty interesting...but it still means that a helluva lot of us are gonna have to start acting in order for something to be part of the collective consciousness, lol. Thanks for posting that.


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## compass

What do you mean by "revolution"? 

There are too many people, and while it is true that many people are discontent, maybe even instinctively reacting to being forced to live a life so disharmonious with nature, there are so many divergent views as to what the root problems are, that I don't see the possibility of significant uniform solidarity sufficient enough to "bring down the system". Maybe that feeling in the air is a natural disaster, like the Yellowstone volcano, or the "Big One" in socal. Not only do I think there is merit in the idea of a collective consciousness, but being that our bodies are literally products of the Earth, maybe we have a subconscious awareness of that as well. Maybe it's 2012  hahaha


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## wizehop

I hate to sound like a negative nancy but...

There will never be any real revolution... only change in who has the power. The "people" have never had it, nor will they ever in the future. The rules of nature have existed since day one....The strong or the ones who will do anything to have power will take it..and as long as those people exsist (and they always will) your shit out of luck.
It has nothing to do with money..money is only a symptom of something greater, whether its capatalizm, socialism, feudalism...even anarchism or any fucking ism...people will owne our asses.

I have noticed throughout my travels that no matter how far back you go, some one always had the power over others(in any system)..only back then they didnt need to create an illusion of freedom like now-a-days. From castle states to city stated to countries....

I guess shit is a lot different in the States. Because if anything I am more free now to do what I want than I would have been during any other time period in the world. Freedom is a personal thing.

This concept about being pissed at big busisness and goverment seems a bit rediculous and probobly has to do more with personal reasons.....Do what you want, be happy..who give a fuck if McDonalds sells shit food and makes billions...and who give a fuck if bush or who ever is stealing tax money....Most of us have nothing to steal anyhow!

If you have to ask to be free your not.....sure people should not have power over other people..yes..but will that ever happen...fack no.....I dont know where everyone gets off thinking shits so bad!


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## connerR

wizehop said:


> I hate to sound like a negative nancy but...
> 
> There will never be any real revolution... only change in who has the power. The "people" have never had it, nor will they ever in the future. The rules of nature have existed since day one....The strong or the ones who will do anything to have power will take it..and as long as those people exsist (and they always will) your shit out of luck.
> It has nothing to do with money..money is only a symptom of something greater, whether its capatalizm, socialism, feudalism...even anarchism or any fucking ism...people will owne our asses.
> 
> I have noticed throughout my travels that no matter how far back you go, some one always had the power over others(in any system)..only back then they didnt need to create an illusion of freedom like now-a-days. From castle states to city stated to countries....
> 
> I guess shit is a lot different in the States. Because if anything I am more free now to do what I want than I would have been during any other time period in the world. Freedom is a personal thing.
> 
> This concept about being pissed at big busisness and goverment seems a bit rediculous and probobly has to do more with personal reasons.....Do what you want, be happy..who give a fuck if McDonalds sells shit food and makes billions...and who give a fuck if bush or who ever is stealing tax money....Most of us have nothing to steal anyhow!
> 
> If you have to ask to be free your not.....sure people should not have power over other people..yes..but will that ever happen...fack no.....I dont know where everyone gets off thinking shits so bad!



brilliant post. :applaud:


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## theshadwdragn

Wizehop,
First, for the vast majority of humanities (or homo sapien's) existence has been in extremely egalitarian lifestyles, . It is not till the formation of civilization in mesopotamia that the state evolved and a brutal economic system came with it and evolved (on a turbulant road) to what we have now. 

Second, you say things arent bad. There is a substancial amount of homeless and exploited people even in the more civilized countries, just barely getting by, most of them on drugs. But this is not the biggest problem (as far as "things are good" is concerned). The biggest problems are imperialism and globalization (producing the mass sufering and impoverished conditions of third world countries). Looking at the product of the beast we call capitalism and the state, conditions are horrible.

Third, the revolution may not be coming swiftly, but in my opinion as long as the people are resisting and the movement grows larger, things are looking good.
shadwdragn


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## JoeGerminate

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. -- Margaret Mead 

wizehop,
it is exactly that attitude which prevents any real revolution. if a population feels they are 'free enough' then they wont risk that freedom to obtain more freedom, end result passive masses. also looking at revolution in terms of all or nothing can be quite defeating. "only change in who has the power. The "people" have never had it" in Argentina workers took over a factory, fired their bosses and kept the factory running with no hierarchical rule governing the factory. I would concider that an instance where people held the power. 

the way I see it you can wait for the end or you can actively seek it. if you wait for it you'll be waiting forever cuz it isn't going to look like what you expect it to and you wont reconize it. if you actively seek it you will be ready for it (should it come in your life time)

connerR,
why should we market ourselves, we arn't selling any product, and we damn sure dont want to become a trend.


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## veggieguy12

IBRRHOBO:
The 'Hundredth Monkey' phenomenon has been debunked as borne of inaccuarate study, wanting it to be so, and false reporting. It's pretty cool in concept, but has no evidential basis - sorry!

Widerstand:
You are indisputably correct that few of us are capable of living for any notable time on merely what the locale provides and what we can do in any given region.
And I, too, enjoy the products of modern Civilization: its technologies and conveniences are good for entertainment and long-distance connections.
But ultimately I don't think they're worth their costs to ecosystems, and I don't think they really give us back as much as they take from us. Truly, I do think people were and will be better-off living in a 'primitive' fashion as our ancestors did.
And the good news is that we won't be "100% self-reliant" as you say, because we will best survive being cooperative, in tribes. Such existance has worked for thousands of years for people on all continents (though few have not yet been exterminated by the Civilized).

Now, I don't look forward to hunting and gathering for daily calories, or wiping my ass with leaves or grasses. But I also don't look forward to working until I'm 85 and taking pills and visiting doctors just to stay alive, or having dentures and being unable to move without a wheelchair. We all gotta go sometime!
It seems pretty clear to me that whatever we in Civilization get, we get at the expense of zebras, and swamps, and forests, and gorilla, and moths, etc. It's like the expanded detail of a sticker I saw on someone's bike, "Less Babies / More Wilderness".

As for the Revolution... the UN says the next World War will be fought over water. And Einstein said "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." So either we, the little people, the ruled, will rise up against our masters, or we will obey their orders to secure more territory and fortune and annihilate ourselves. That's the Revolution.
The revolution, on the other hand - not in conflict with the Revolution - is whether we make some *serious*, drastic changes in the way we live upon the Earth, or will the Earth impose those changes upon us? If we are to have any future, if the rest of the biosphere is to have any future, we must choose the former before we meet the latter.


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## bote

good post


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## IBRRHOBO

veggieguy: never said that it was a 'CASE IN POINT'. perhaps read my quote as it said '...along the lines...' in addressing your return to primal living, what are your HONEST estimates of the percentage of folks on planet earth who would give up what they have to save the zebra? let's keep it real. oh, it's a 'nobel' thought and probably good for the wine socials, but it's not going to happen. as to tribes, what are nations? i mean what do you do just throw the switch? roll out the printing presses to circulate unabomber manefestos? shit! you gonna be the one to start telling women with breast cancer, 'sorry, the zebra lives and you die.' you gonna take a stand against those with diabetes that they die, but the swamp lizard lives? gonna tell the mentally challenged that they die 'cause we're a primitive world now and we can't afford to keep them around? remember, that's how IT IS in primitive culture. and keeping it really REAL you think racism is bad now? fuck, flip the switch. you ain't seen shit!


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## veggieguy12

IBRRHOBO said:


> veggieguy: never said that it was a 'CASE IN POINT'. perhaps read my quote as it said '...along the lines...' in addressing your return to primal living, what are your HONEST estimates of the percentage of folks on planet earth who would give up what they have to save the zebra? let's keep it real. oh, it's a 'nobel' thought and probably good for the wine socials, but it's not going to happen. as to tribes, what are nations? i mean what do you do just throw the switch? roll out the printing presses to circulate unabomber manefestos? shit! you gonna be the one to start telling women with breast cancer, 'sorry, the zebra lives and you die.' you gonna take a stand against those with diabetes that they die, but the swamp lizard lives? gonna tell the mentally challenged that they die 'cause we're a primitive world now and we can't afford to keep them around? remember, that's how IT IS in primitive culture. and keeping it really REAL you think racism is bad now? fuck, flip the switch. you ain't seen shit!



Oh, I agree with Widerstand, that few (self included) could do it - but I think that's good. Even fewer will willingly do it.
Nations are not tribes. Tribes are, my best guess, maxed-out around something like 3,000 people. Nations are hierarchies that serve power and keep a fixed location, while tribes may have leaders but they don't make their own people slaves, and they generally move habitations in search of food, even if only within a large region.

No manifestos, no switch to throw; could tell people with disease and illness that they'll get better, but we all know that there are no guarantees. (And something like cancer specifically, among other human problems, is the result of all our alteration to the landscape.) If it comes down to it, I guess I could tell people that they "cause we're a primitive world now", but in such a situation, it really won't be necessary to tell anyone, nor will it be my decision to kill or keep anyone. Is there a bad, careless, mean lion telling the infirmed or disabled that they must die? No, their needs for survival dictate that.


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## bote

I can sort of understand revolution as meaningless rebellion for the sake of action, and that sounds problematic to me too, but the alternative is essentially nothing more than a predictable changing of the guard, as one political movement or group suceeds another as "leaders". I am not interested in leading or being subjected to the will of person(s) unknown. 

btw IBRR, the unabomber manifesto is really long, but have you read his Ship of Fools? very interesting

The Unabomber - Ship of Fools Text


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## theshadwdragn

Widerstand and others,
First, i agree that if the "societal engine" just collapsed this very moment alot of people would be fucked. However, this is not relevent to my understanding of a revolution. When and if capitalism falls to a revolution i would hape that we would have a large enough movement to reasemble society from the bottom up. The workers would take control of the industries, eliminating the heirarchy of the workforce, people would start gardening and farms and food production would continue simply under the control of the workers (as was demonstrated in barcelona in 1936 where they overthrew there employers and took control of the city). I dont know why people think that after a revolution shit would just stop and turn to hell. Yes things will be tough for a while, how tough depending on numerous circumstances. My point is that a revolution would not stop all technological advances and food production etc., it would simply put the control in the hand of the people (in an anarchist revolution that is).


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## bote

One time a Jehovah's witness gave me a pamphlet and on it there was a depiction of post-rapture earth and it featured a very presentable nuclear family, well-combed too, living in perfect harmony with nature. The dad figure was stroking a tiger's nape, and his little girl had a baby koala clinging to her neck, she was smiling. They were knee deep in lush foliage, and in the background, tropical flowers were cropping up everywhere around a beautiful two-story house. Me I want this!


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## Mouse

I want a live koala necklace of my very own as well!!!


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## IBRRHOBO

theshadwdragn said:


> Widerstand and others,
> First, i agree that if the "societal engine" just collapsed this very moment alot of people would be fucked. However, this is not relevent to my understanding of a revolution. When and if capitalism falls to a revolution i would hape that we would have a large enough movement to reasemble society from the bottom up. The workers would take control of the industries, eliminating the heirarchy of the workforce, people would start gardening and farms and food production would continue simply under the control of the workers (as was demonstrated in barcelona in 1936 where they overthrew there employers and took control of the city). I dont know why people think that after a revolution shit would just stop and turn to hell. Yes things will be tough for a while, how tough depending on numerous circumstances. My point is that a revolution would not stop all technological advances and food production etc., it would simply put the control in the hand of the people (in an anarchist revolution that is).


 
there are a couple of nations that come to mind, somalia being the first. here you've had revolution after revolution. now there has been NO AID of any kind so it would resemble a pietre dish for this proposition. south africa, though not by violence, is another example. the goals of revolution are to topple those in power. south africa found out the hard way that when you kill/remove all those in power and put your own in, you pay a price. see the whole concept that tomorrow we wave the black flag over the white house is flawed. locally? possible. human nature is human nature. who's gonna give the marching orders? kill him, spare her, you work , you play? once that person comes into power the dynamic is refocused on that which it replaced.

the other flaw at a national level is who exactly are the people. let's not bullshit around, there aren't a fuck of a lot of crusty punks out there on the rails with PhD's and believe it or not you NEED those people with PhD's for a nation to function. won't hit the points as they've been debated before. local, possible. national, never.

good counterpoints there veggieguy!

bote: LOVED the link! THANKS!


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## finn

I'm not really political either, and my involvement in protests only go as far as medical and sometimes legal support- not a huge fan of yelling or chanting or throwing a fit. The way I see it, the way all the structures supporting society are set up, it will collapse too easily and put everyone into a bind with any drastic change. It's not like there's a highly adaptable net of small farms and businesses that people can depend on- instead it's mostly huge corporations competing with each other and pushing small business off the map. If there is some revolution, I'd like to see one where it's about replacing all the chains with something a bit more human.


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## theshadwdragn

> there are a couple of nations that come to mind, somalia being the first. here you've had revolution after revolution. now there has been NO AID of any kind so it would resemble a pietre dish for this proposition. south africa, though not by violence, is another example. the goals of revolution are to topple those in power. south africa found out the hard way that when you kill/remove all those in power and put your own in, you pay a price. see the whole concept that tomorrow we wave the black flag over the white house is flawed. locally? possible. human nature is human nature. who's gonna give the marching orders? kill him, spare her, you work , you play? once that person comes into power the dynamic is refocused on that which it replaced.
> 
> the other flaw at a national level is who exactly are the people. let's not bullshit around, there aren't a fuck of a lot of crusty punks out there on the rails with PhD's and believe it or not you NEED those people with PhD's for a nation to function. won't hit the points as they've been debated before. local, possible. national, never.



You make many good points. 

Fiirst, here have been many failed revolutions in the past, very many. However simply because they failed doesnt mean that a revolution based on anarchist principles with contemorary tactics nessesarily would. When looking at the tactics, methods, and priciples present in these failed revolutions we can see why we failed. And from this we can and have developed a new revolutionary praxis based on autonomy, subversion and most importantly community organizing. Not sure if you know to much about whats going on in Greece, or europe for that matter, but you could check out infoshop.org (its Europe section) to find out. In short, they are building the foundations for and initiating this revolution. Insurrectionary anarchism is the largest revolutionary movement today, however it is not easy to see in the USA because its not as big...yet.

Second, you mention "who will give the marching orders"? Do you realy believe that humans, in there nature, require someone telling them what to do? As has been seen most obviously in the Spanish Civil War when anarchists and others took over Barcelona and ran the entire workforce with no bosses. It is called federalism, and if you look it up, check out proudhons definition.

Third, your best point is the last, where will we get people with expertise in medicine or any other of the skill sets that require massive education. Well first, the anarchist revolution (if it happens) would have some of these people on there side already, so the period durring the revolution and for some time after, as sketchy and tough as it may be, will have some of these people. But lets say after the revolution has happened and the area is reorganized communally and egalitarianly. First, take a look at cuba. This is far from a successful revolution (though it came close), yet there is much to be learned. They have numerous free medical universities up and running throughout, and there education systems are top of the line. So why couldnt any one else do the same?

Finally, remember that revolution is simply a word. The real thing is a long, difficult, and unsure process. It encompasses massive peoples movements, insurrectionary militancy, community organizing and solidarity, etc. etc. etc. This being said, the best we can do is try and shoot for the best, for i refuse to sit in apathy and resignation in this world using the excuse of "its to risky" or "it wont work".


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## oldmanLee

while the posts here have been both informative and well thought out,I must admit that they seem rather like masturbation.Whatever you belive,do something about it,don't talk.


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## IBRRHOBO

theshadowdragon: at least you've given some thought there to your presentation. that, in and of itself, impresses me. i'd probably take point w/the cuba issue on the fact it was the US who backed castro initially and then USSR down the road, so that wasn't a 'real' revolution. merely an imposition of change of leadership by superpowers.

see, what i take issue w/is NOT that revolution IS/IS NOT possible, but that an ANARCHISTIC revolution is possible. anarchism, by ideological definition is antiauthoritarian. there is the problem. didn't say it WASN'T possible, just very doubtful in the 21st Century.

oldmanLee: it appears you feel folks oughta shut the fuck up and act. kinda sad as obviously since this WHOLE forum is about dialogue.


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## wartomods

I hate to say this, but i am pretty content with the state of society here.


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## hassysmacker

veggieguy12 said:


> Oh, I agree with Widerstand, that few (self included) could do it - but I think that's good. Even fewer will willingly do it.
> Nations are not tribes. Tribes are, my best guess, maxed-out around something like 3,000 people.



I've even read studies by a guy named dunbar, about something called dunbars number, which extrapolated from studies about primates, proposes that over 150 people human interaction starts to socially stratify, and turn to hierarchy.


And IBRR: Somalia is a terrible example because that was just a society that collapsed but still has a highly capitalist-in-nature functioning. SO its FUUUUCKED up. Thats what I think all "anarcho-capitalist" situations will collapse into.

And about the local: yes, largescale: no thing, fucking fantastic. I I know that society will forcefully decentralize in the near future- (50-100 years maybe) due to issues such as peak oil, peak everything else, and ecocide, and I also know that local communities are inherently more sustainable than cities, and I also know that the planet is severely overpopulated. The scientific ranges given about the Earths carrying capacity for humans has typically been in the range of 100 million-1 billion.

Just sayin'.


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## IBRRHOBO

can u site a GOOD example of an anarchist revolution which is STILL functioning as an anarchist government today? that way we just cut through all my bad examples and get to the guts of the matter. i don't think you can and we've had the ideology for hundreds of years.


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## bote

I also see an irreconciliable difference between anarchism and hierarchy, but I do believe in the possibility of successful anarchist living situations, having had the pleasure of living in a couple. 
I've lived in travel/punk houses with alternating casts averaging 20-30 people and amazingly, the fridges were more or less always full, the dishes got done more promptly than in most other shared situations I've been in, there were almost always constructive projects going on, and problems were resolved as they arose.
Granted, we're talking about people living off the fat of an extremely rich and wasteful land, but the fact still remains that without any kind of stated rules, without an established system of authority, things did not fall apart but actually seemed to work pretty well. 
I'm getting a little sappy just thinking about it, but to anybody who's experienced this type of situation, you know how good it can be.


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## bote

I also see an irreconciliable difference between anarchism and hierarchy, but I do believe in the possibility of successful anarchist living situations, having had the pleasure of living in a couple. 
I've lived in travel/punk houses with alternating casts averaging 20-30 people and amazingly, the fridges were more or less always full, the dishes got done more promptly than in most other shared situations I've been in, there were almost always constructive projects going on, and problems were resolved as they arose.
Granted, we're talking about people living off the fat of an extremely rich and wasteful land, but the fact still remains that without any kind of stated rules, without an established system of authority, things did not fall apart but actually seemed to work pretty well. 
I'm getting a little sappy just thinking about it, but to anybody who's experienced this type of situation, you know how good it can be.


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## IBRRHOBO

bote said:


> I also see an irreconciliable difference between anarchism and hierarchy, but I do believe in the possibility of successful anarchist living situations, having had the pleasure of living in a couple.
> I've lived in travel/punk houses with alternating casts averaging 20-30 people and amazingly, the fridges were more or less always full, the dishes got done more promptly than in most other shared situations I've been in, there were almost always constructive projects going on, and problems were resolved as they arose.
> Granted, we're talking about people living off the fat of an extremely rich and wasteful land, but the fact still remains that without any kind of stated rules, without an established system of authority, things did not fall apart but actually seemed to work pretty well.
> I'm getting a little sappy just thinking about it, but to anybody who's experienced this type of situation, you know how good it can be.


 
i'll bite here and not really 'cause i wanna change anyone's mind on anarchy. i'm more of a searcher for facts in ANY cause. so, no rules. yeah, i'd say ur probably right. maslow's heirarchy of needs prevailed: food, clothing and shelter. what i am saying and the issue is being danced around by everyone is this: when society breaks down WHO tells WHOM to do WHAT? see, all the punkers going out to get food sure. going out to get schwill, sure. but tell those folks that they need to get a job and give ALL their money so that the punk house in WADC can get food and schwill and they'll say fuck you.

same applies to creating an anarchist nation. someone has to tell someone else to clean the sewer to get fresh water, to clean the pit at the dumpstation to keep trash flowing, to clean the colostomy bags in the elderly. now those who get told to do it for free while those telling them to do it are getting drunk are gonna be pissed. remember that there's now no money involved, etc.

still waiting on the sucessful revolution...still waiting to hear about the nation still under anarchist control and leadership.........


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## theshadwdragn

> what i am saying and the issue is being danced around by everyone is this: when society breaks down WHO tells WHOM to do WHAT?



The anarchist model of organization, or how to get things done without an authority telling what do do, has been seen SO many times and has been shown to work on both large and small scale societies. There is this notion embeded in our minds that without someone telling you how to run your life you would be otherwise incapable of doing so. I reject this notion in its entirety.



> same applies to creating an anarchist nation. someone has to tell someone else to clean the sewer to get fresh water, to clean the pit at the dumpstation to keep trash flowing, to clean the colostomy bags in the elderly. now those who get told to do it for free while those telling them to do it are getting drunk are gonna be pissed. remember that there's now no money involved, etc.



Again, looking at historical examples (anywhere from the paris commune [largely anarchistic] to the spanish civil war, to communes all over the world) we have figured out numerous ways of running things democratically and autonomously. These have all been simply repressed by force, and if you make the argument that today, the superpowers wouldnt let an anarhist revolution take place, then youve got some sort of point. However making the argument that we dont have the capacity to organize ourselves, youll need to back it up. 

I do, however, agree that it is going to take time and that we are nowhere near ready.


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## farmer john

hassysmacker said:


> I know that society will forcefully decentralize in the near future- (50-100 years maybe) due to issues such as peak oil, peak everything else, and ecocide, and I also know that local communities are inherently more sustainable than cities, and I also know that the planet is severely overpopulated. The scientific ranges given about the Earths carrying capacity for humans has typically been in the range of 100 million-1 billion.
> 
> Just sayin'.




amen brutha 

i was just telling this to my "teachers" the other day 
all the oldtimers ive been talking to feel this way to they all say the same thing that sumthing big and bad is coming and its gunna be up to us(younger folks) to sort out the mess which is gunna be like no other


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## Beegod Santana

Interesting discussion, but the one point I haven't seen anyone make (maybe I missed it, I have limited comp time..) is that the us military is capable of squashing a rebellion in a second. As the ex-security supervisor of the fema ops center in new orleans (the strangest job I've ever had by far, maybe in 30 yrs I'll write a full account from an undisclosed location in the swiss alps), I can tell you that a lot of these attrocities that people write zines about and go protest about look like little happy pussy playtime fun hour when compared some of the shit that goes down daily in this country. Your government is not afraid to mow you down en masse. They have done this to citizens on american soil in your life time and they will continue to do so. They also know who the brightest and most influential people in the country / world are, and they also have the falcilities to reach these people and make them offers they can't refuse. Also, the majority of the american public is still very patriotic. If a revolution where to ever get underway enough that the general population where to actually hear about it, you'd see a huge surge of people signing up to fight the resistance, not join it, and lot of them would be people much more adapt at handling a gun then most of the people here calling for a fight.

and I thinks its about time I shut up before I'm looking at another 30 yr conspiricy charge...


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## farmer john

^ Has A very Good PoinT


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## nuckfumbertheory

I have read a number of very interesting things in this thread some of which I need to think further on. But, there are a couple of things that I would like to say quickly. 

One of them is regarding "primitive culture" vs "modern society" I think it is imperative that we get to the point where we understand that we can deconstruct the latter without exactly returning to the former. We don't have to sacrifice the elderly or the sick or the mentally handicapped in order to deconstruct the society (capitalism corporations governments) that destroys the earth. There is a way to have it all we just haven't found it yet. For me if you're anywhere on the path to finding it and living it now then you are already revolutionary. 


"I strongly believe in the philosophy that which governs best, governs least. I would even like to take it a step further and say that which governs best governs not at all. And when man is ready for it that is the government he shall have." 

Paraphrased HDT

I think about this statement a lot. There are many different ways you can read it. I personally think that a lot of us are already there even though some of you have already said "we still have a long way to go" etc I don't think that is true. I think because a lot of us are already there all we need to do is start creating the world we would like to see right now within the borders of the oppression of our governments and banks etc. All we need to do is create more and more places where the world looks more like the one we would like to see with cooperation instead of competition, finding new ways of doing things that don't have a heavy impact on the environment and refusing to put money into the system that does not follow our values. These things are possible right now and people have already begun making them happen.


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## Alaska

"I hate to say this, but i am pretty content with the state of society here."

And that's fine. Why can't it be?

For me, and many other "primitivists", freedom is something we now have to make for ourselves, instead of a birth-right. Our nation, as well as most, deny us the right to live the ways we want to. 

If you want all the luxuries and inhuman, unnatural communication of the capitalist world, have it! Take your hierarchies and big macs! But why do I have to? Why does everyone have to? 

you do what you want, I do what I want. 

But it doesn't work that way in this civilized world of ours. Sub-societies are demonized and destroyed constantly. Labeled as cults, seen as being inferior, and just plain stupid because they don't subscribe to others' morals and beliefs. Their ideals are different, their world is different. We don't destroy every mice nest we find because they bite the heads of other mice pups off! (we just do it because they're not human )

Capitalism has always been a form of living in which annihilation reigns supreme. Alternatives are not allowed, and if you try to resist, you will be destroyed. 

Obviously, I know what I want to do, but I still don't know how to do it. It's a conflicted situation. If people want to be Takers, er, I mean citizens of a capitalist society, then they should be able to. But the problem is that Capitalism is inherently all-encompassing. Has been from the start. I don't mean the core concepts, I just mean the way it has been used for so long. It's like a horribly fat, acne-ridden bully who just won't let you finish your fucking book without dumping his milk all over you. You just want to let him be, you're not harming him at all! But he needs to assert himself over you because you're... ta da... different.

So you either fight the bastard until he leaves you alone (or die trying) or you continue to take his shit.

I don't think I want to deal with the fucker anymore. 

(P.S. 
Has anyone here read My Ishmael? The Taker and Leaver analogy in it was very well done. He manages to successfully reiterate the rise of capitalism and fall of freedom with dancing terms.)


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## veggieguy12

Alaska said:


> (P.S. Has anyone here read My Ishmael? The Taker and Leaver analogy in it was very well done. He manages to successfully reiterate the rise of capitalism and fall of freedom with dancing terms.)



Yeah, it's a pretty good one!
I do hope you read _Ishmael_ and then _The Story of B_ before it, though.


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## Alaska

Yeah, I've read most of Quinn's books.

Also, if some people couldn't understand the whole point of my very drunken post from this morning, it really only means one thing: "Our" culture rapes the planet at such an astonishing rate with such greed and malice, that soon we won't even have the personal freedom of starting any kind of sub-societies or "anti-societies", because there won't be any fucking land left to even pitch a goddamn tent on.

I just wish some people weren't so chill about this whole "we're killing our Mother" thing, you know? Not everyone wants to die in such a dismal state. Some people want to be happy before they die. It's definitely worth fighting for, so why not?

:chug::cheers:


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## newlypoor

i've had a similar feeling for a little under a year now, and i've asked some people about it who feel the same way. they doesn't mean that anything is definite, of course, but it does make me curious.

oftentimes, when we refer to societal movements, we refer to them as waves. when i did go to school, we had some elderly activists and historians come into our classes from time to time. they often referred to the progression of their movements as something that just happened. as if it suddenly came over people, typically the youth, and there was no stopping it.

i'd like to believe a revolution is coming, but i obviously don't know. revolution isn't impossible, they've occurred before from haitians to usians, cubans to venezuelans. bullet's right though, revolutions start with a shift in thought and personal practices. we can't assume that all revolutions are the same.


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