question:violence, a necessary evil in class war/revolution?

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i want to know what other folks like me think about the use of violence in order to obtain liberation.

and if you think violence is ok.to what extreme??


a good topic.

old..but good.
 
question:violence, a necessary evil in class war/revoluti

i think all matters on the situation i mean straight up conventional warfare obviously does more harm then good but throwing tear gas back at the police line i think would be legitimate violence but if the "revolution" is faught by violence arent we as bad as them? arent we just creating a new system? its not forcing people to change but showing them how much better there lives could be if they stopped working withing this unjust competetive system
 
question:violence, a necessary evil in class war/revoluti

Violence can solve problems, but it always brings new problems. I think defensive violence is perfectly acceptable. If someone fucks with your shit, fuck with theirs. However this ideology doesn't work on the grand scale of say the world.
 
question:violence, a necessary evil in class war/revoluti

the problem with violence in my mind is that you have to limit the amount of violence you use wich seems to be really unfair. if you pull an effective blunt object on a cop they won't pull a club on you to be fair, they'll just pull a gun and there's the posibility of being shot. unless you're down with the martyr scene i don't think it's that cool. i think if violence is used it should be like the zapatistas. people came on to their land to harm them so they shot them, but ultimatly they believe that total self suffiency within their community can make a bigger impact than violence because they're simply outnumbered and have less technology for the purpose of warfare. if everyone just stopped working for corporations at once and just worked for themselves and the people they cared about. go strait to the basic needs and fuck money. it would be a better way of making change. since it seems difficult to convinse everyone in the world that, then find bigger and better weapons and more people to use them than the oppressors.
 
question:violence, a necessary evil in class war/revoluti

If someone strikes you, offer him the other cheek --- Jesus

Nonviolence is the only way to overcome injustice --- Ghandi

It is better to be killed than to kill --- St. Bernard of Clairvaux
 
question:violence, a necessary evil in class war/revoluti

cops, facists (and no they aren't always the same thing), dictators, and bad peopel the world over use guns, violence, and fear tactics to bring about social change. I refuse to sink to thier level. you don't have to fuck people over to survive. you don't have to hurt people to change the world for the better. being passionate and going outside the law to accomplish it is one thing. but hurting people is an entirely different ballgame. I give my full support to anyone who wants to try and demolish the headquarters of a company doing terrible things. but not if demolishing it means you're going to do it with security guards, employees, or customers in there. and all three quotes in the post above me are fantastic!
 
question:violence, a necessary evil in class war/revoluti

Problem being with those quotes is the first person may or may not have existed, the second one was murdered, and the third even though an advocate of peace was part of a an organization (Catholic church) that has been responsible for the murder of millions people.
 
question:violence, a necessary evil in class war/revoluti

Just because your part of the catholic church dosnt mean you advocate violence. You forget the catholic workers movement was founded on peace and charity towards other. The same church puts out charities all over. Now the church is led by the pope and well this is what the current pope has to say.


LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI called Sunday for an end to all wars, describing them as "useless slaughters" that bring hell to Earth.

Benedict, speaking from this small mountain town where he has been vacationing, recalled that 90 years ago his predecessor Pope Benedict XV urged a similar end to the first World War, then ravaging this part of northern Italy.

"While this inhuman conflict raged, the pope had the courage to affirm that it was a 'useless slaughter,'" Benedict said. "These words — 'useless slaughter' — contained a fuller prophetic value that can be applied to so many other conflicts that have cut off countless human lives."

Benedict did not cite any particular conflicts in his comments to several hundred faithful who gathered in Lorenzago di Cadore's main piazza for his traditional Sunday blessing.

"From this place of peace, where one still senses how unacceptable the horrors of 'useless slaughters' are, I renew the appeal to pursue the path of rights, to strongly refuse the recourse to weapons and refuse to confront new situations with old systems," he said.

He reminded the faithful that God put man on Earth to take care of his "paradise," but that man sinned and began making war.

Benedict has been stepping up his peace appeals, issuing a major call June 17 in the hillside town of Assisi, known for St. Francis' message of peace. A week earlier, Benedict told President Bush he was greatly concerned about the fate of Christians in Iraq — a concern he repeated in subsequent audiences and speeches.

Benedict's blessing Sunday was attended by several top prelates as well as Hong Kong Cardinal Joseph Zen, an outspoken critic of China's treatment of Catholics in the underground church. Last month Benedict issued a letter to China's 12 million Catholics, urging them to unite under his authority.
 
question:violence, a necessary evil in class war/revoluti

Exile wrote:
Just because your part of the catholic church dosnt mean you advocate violence. You forget the catholic workers movement was founded on peace and charity towards other. The same church puts out charities all over. Now the church is led by the pope and well this is what the current pope...
Click to expand...

It's true that there are certain sects of Catholicism, namely Catholic Anarchism, which does not adhere to the strict guidelines of the Vatican. More often, Christian Anarchists are incredibly critical of the Church, its power, and its money, and are more focused on the community.

However, the Catholic Church itself was founded and has a deep, dark history of violence. (Crusades, Inquisition, etc.) It is still being accused of, and in my opinion is guilty of, much violence today. Most importatntly, the power structures in place which allow for the Church to remain so powerful religiously, socially, politically, are violent by nature, if not outwardly or literally so.

It's therefore not a good idea to correlate completely radical movements like Catholic Anarchism, and the existing Catholic Church, by way of the pope.

In general, I'm not a fan of violence, but I believe it comes in many forms. I believe power is a representation of violence, violent culture, and the violent nature of mankind. But I'm hopeful.
 
question:violence, a necessary evil in class war/revoluti

I think theoretical questions like this are funny and kind of useless. Most of the people who talk about the revolution being violent don't even know how to handle a gun safely.

I think everyone should know, at the very least, how to put the safety on and unload a gun. I mean, this is america, sooner or later you'll come across a gun...

I'm not much of a believer in revolutions, personally.
 
question:violence, a necessary evil in class war/revoluti

to an extent, though shouting a sharp slogan while thrusting a sign in the air may not do too much good by itself. changing the ideals that would be good for the community would be nice for everyone but fucking someone up (say shooting an advocate of a generally bad idea for the better) is better for everyone but the one person. gah, what a horrible subject. (-_-)
 
From William S. Burroughs:

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily; giving flowers to the cops just isn’t going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window."

I believe that what is truly needed is a change in consciousness, but the sad reality is that humanity is destroying this world in record pace and there is not enough time or resources available to those who would peacefully save it. And there never will be. Those in power will not simply see the light and relinquish their dominion no matter how much we pray or click our heels together.
 
i really don't see a peaceful revolution being possible. those in power will do whatever it takes to remain in power, even if it means killing it's own citizens. just look at the mobtown riots in baltimore, or many other worker strikes that were suppressed with lethal violence in america. so yeah, armed revolution is really the only possibility in my mind. :mrgreen:
 
when it all crashes cops will kill each other over who gets the box of porno, blow up dolls, and donuts.

antics thanks for that video. older folks helpin out younger kids gives me hope.
 
Still it makes me wonder why cops are such dickheads. I look at the role of a police officer as having the potential to cause great change on a vast scale. Look at a possible situation: some kids are smoking pot or drinking beers outside and a cop drives up. Scenario 'Likely' the kids get arrested and charged pettily. Scenario 'Unlikely' the cop goes up to them and gives them a little adult education about drugs, the frequency with which to use them, where to use them if at all, what they can do for you, how they can work against you, etc. No arrest, no paperwork, no formalities; just a guy with some power using it for good. The relationship cops have with the rest of the community is separate. They walk among us, yet they are not one of us. As a result, when a cop is needed, a cop is rarely wanted.

Shit, since I got arrested, based on my experience with police officers in the past and with what happened, there's no position I would detest having more than a law enforcement officer. But I know how great the potential to be able to educate and not instill fear still can be. But it seems my only interaction with cops includes being sexually harrassed or handcuffed. So I guess they can all eat shit.
 
the whole basis of this question isn't great.

violence is neither evil nor good. some would argue that there is no good or evil. only ethical and unethical. good and evil is moralism, ethical and unethical is thought out logic about whats fucked up to do to someone and what isn't. violence is simply a tool, sometimes used for liberation and sometimes used for oppression. what is ethical: allowing the state to enslave and exploit your people, OR making sure that no on can ever do that to you and your community again? sorry liberals, but boycotts and petitions just aren't going to end hierarchy and capitalism.

read Beyond the Corpse Machine
and Pasicism as Pathology
and How Nonviolence protects the state

you can google all of those.
 
i wish i could agree with the non violent people but i cant, it makes people that use violence just as bad, but u gotta fight fire with fire....or water?
there not just gunna give us the world, we got to take it from them!!!!!!!!!

july 17 2008!!!!!
 
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