Cisgender Privilege Checklist

[thisisme]

all i was trying to say is as long as someone treats others with respect and understanding its irrelevant whether or not they fit under the category of privileged. Everyone wants to be treated with dignity and respect. Maybe its just because it seems like a no brainer to me, but i dont think a 20 page "checklist" for the cisgendered is really necessary. Its a bit insulting. of course i also understand that unforturnately not everyone is empathetic and respectful, otherwise this wouldnt be an issue in the first place, so in that regard it would be necessary for certain individuals. What bothers me is the assumption that because i fit into the cisgendered category i automatically "dont get it" and must read an extremely long checklist that basically boils down to everyone is human and should be treated with diginity and respect no matter who they are. i said some less than kind words to pip, not because this person is transgendered but because of the lack of respect and ignorant assumptions being directed at me, the same thing they seemed to be complaining about, simply because i agreed that the checklist seemed obnoxious. i do agree i couldve have been more tactful on my response to this, but was simply trying to make the point that pip was being hypocritical. My responses were meant more fecitiously than anything. i agree with the fact that way too much time and energy is spent on labels and categorizing everyone, something which was created with the intent to break down those barriers only seems to lead to more barriers being created in the end. i dont know if this sounds repetitive or even makes any damn sense but thats my last two cents for this topic.

 

[Beegod Santana]

"I expect access to, and fair treatment within, sex segregated facilities
Homeless shelters
Domestic Violence shelters
Dormitories
Drug Rehabilitation
Prisons
Bathrooms
Locker rooms
Gyms
Hostels
Juvenile justice systems
Institutions and authority figures do not force me to adopt a different gender presentation, or deny me medical treatment.
Parents, foster care
Juvenile justice systems
Schools (all K-12 schools, some religious universities)
Drug rehabilitation
Nursing homes
Prisons
Hospitals/Mental Hospitals"


Um, whoever wrote this has obviously never been to most of these places. Being a trans -queer in prison can have some major ups on being a straight white male.

I'm a straight white male, I've had homosexuals attempt to sexually assault me on several occasions. I don't blame homosexuality though, I blame the fact that the world is fucked up and people love to dominate each other.

I've been denied medical treatment, basic human rights, and even food in jail. I don't really think being trans gender would've made it much worse.

At the same time I don't deny that being a male had some benefits in life. Even when I consider all the ways people have tried to kill, ruin, or imprison me, I still feel very blessed to be alive in this country.

 

[venusinpisces]

Um, whoever wrote this has obviously never been to most of these places. .

Yeah, really. Who receives "fair treatment" in prison or juvenile detention centers, anyways? That comment is actually kind of funny considering how corrupt the criminal justice system really is. Every time I've gone to jail I expected to be treated like absolute trash, just like everyone else in booking. That's the way it goes. I'm not denying that privilege exists either but that list is a good example of how exaggerated and over blown the idea can get. This is a much more reasonable way of describing it, in my opinion.

this is being ridiculously over complicated, privilege boils down to this:
Different things that may or may not be personal decisions (race or sex for example) make it so that you have higher chances of being treated well in our societies. It doesn't mean every white cis-guy is gonna live like a king or that every hispanic trans-woman's life is gonna be hell, but it does mean that it's more likely and probable, that is all...

 

[venusinpisces]

VenusinPisces, I sympathize with that experience on a lot of levels. As someone who has gone back and forth on identifying as trans and cis in different times in my life, it's quite a struggle to know who I am because the language and culture of American gender pulls on me in confounding ways. I identify as cisgendered right now, but there was a time in my ilfe where the only thing that prevented me from getting hormones and surgery was the lack of any forms of ID or money. It is very painful to not know who you are and how to enter into a loving relationship with yourself.

You brought up an aspect of cis/transnormativity that I didn't know you were addressing. It is incredibly fucked up how two-spirit people are placed in this juncture in which white ideas of gender overshadow their cultural, lived experience. Being trans and/or two-spirit (depending on how you formulate it) should never be pathologized, and it sounds like we agree on this matter. I think that the discourse on trans bodies and selves is extremely complicated though, and while the predominant factor in the suffering in gender dysphoria comes from gender normative structures and norms, I think it is entirely possible that another part may be due to biological and neurological pre-programming. In other words, if it is true that genetics, brain structure, and social norms all play a part in constructing gender, then it may not be enough to just have society accept more than two genders. It may require medical intervention, which is problematic because currently Medicine operates in a field of power governed by capitalism, cis and heteronormativity, and white supremacy. However, if it is true that gender is completely socially constructed, then the narrative that having non-binary systems of gender is the best way to see gender, then surgery would not be necessary. I think it's a very dense discourse, and no single person has THE solution to it. But that's why these conversations are so crucial, since we need to find some set of solutions that work well for all people, cis and trans.

I hear what you're saying but I don't think that, just because our conception of gender is at least partially based in genetics, this necessarily means that gender dysphoria is something that needs to be corrected via medical intervention. Two spirit people in the past got along just fine without synthetic hormones or surgery and their communities accepted them as is. Also, there have recently been studies showing that synthetic estrogens have been found in the water supply and are causing genetic defects in local fish populations. This is obviously not an issue that is the exclusive responsibility of transexuals since estrogenic compounds are a common byproduct of industry. But whether it's a woman seeking birth control or a transgender person attempting a gender change, the idea that human rights supersede our responsibility to the environment is one that will lead our society in a very problematic direction. At least in terms of birth control, there are safer and equally effective alternatives, such as Queen Anne's Lace(aka wild carrot). Of course, many people are uninformed about these issues so I won't fault individuals as much as culture, both mainstream and "counterculture", as a whole.

As for the adverse health effects of synthetic hormones, pharmaceutical estrogens have so many harmful effects I don't even know where to start: high blood pressure, heart disease, cancer, the list goes on. There have also been studies showing that men with low levels of testosterone are prone to depression, rage and physical exhaustion. Personally, I have noticed all of these symptoms in many transwomen(male-to-female) I've known, leading me to suspect that simply substituting unpredictable, synthetic drugs for the body's natural supply of hormones is not a wise course of action. Normally, I would say it's not my business to tell people what to do with their bodies, even if they're getting drunk on Listerine! But in the case of the transexuality trend, which is having an enormous impact on younger generations, activists are characterizing medically created gender change as a healthy, perfectly acceptable human right and I see this as irresponsible considering that trans people are basically guinea pigs for the medical industry. Have you heard about the Chidren's Transgender Clinic in Boston, which is preventing puberty through medical intervention? At that age, most kids don't even have a basic understanding of biology, let alone the ability to navigate the complex range of permanent "side effects" that can result from hormonal treatment. This is why I think it's important to expose the other side of things, because the transgender community is, in many ways, pushing for surgery to be the norm for people who hate their bodies. There is just no way I will ever see this as a beneficial development since systematic cultural change is a lot less likely as long as there are superficial "solutions". And thisisme's comparison to plastic surgery is a good one, since the obsession with surface appearance, and materialism in general, is one of the biggest problems with this culture in the first place.

 

[thisisme]

I hear what you're saying but I don't think that, just because our conception of gender is at least partially based in genetics, this necessarily means that gender dysphoria is something that needs to be corrected via medical intervention. Two spirit people in the past got along just fine without hormones or surgery and their cultures accepted them as is. Also, there have recently been studies showing that synthetic estrogens have been found in the water supply and are causing genetic defects in local fish populations. This is obviously not an issue that is the exclusive responsibility of transexuals since estrogenic compounds are a common byproduct of industry. But whether it is a woman seeking birth control or a transgender person attempting a gender change, the idea that human rights supersede our responsibility to the environment is one that will lead our society in a very problematic direction. At least in terms of birth control, there are safer and equally effective alternatives, such as Queen Anne's Lace. Of course, many people are uninformed about these issues so I won't fault individuals as much as culture, both mainstream and "counterculture", as a whole.

As for the adverse health effects of synthetic hormones, pharmaceutical estrogens have so many harmful effects I don't even know where to start: high blood pressure, heart disease, cancer, the list goes on. There have also been studies showing that men with low levels of testosterone are prone to depression, rage and physical exhaustion. Personally, I have noticed all of these symptoms in many transwomen I've known, leading me to suspect that simply substituting unpredictable, synthetic drugs for the body's natural supply of hormones is not a wise course of action. Normally, I would say it's not my business to tell people what to do with their bodies, even if they're getting drunk on Listerine! But in the case of the transexuality trend, which is having an enormous impact on younger generations, activists are characterizing medically created gender change as a healthy, perfectly acceptable human right and I see this as irresponsible considering that trans people are basically guinea pigs for the medical industry. Have you heard about the Chidren's Transgender Clinic in Boston, which is preventing puberty through medical intervention? At that age, most kids don't even have a basic understanding of biology, let alone the ability to navigate the complex range of permanent "side effects" that can result from hormonal treatment. This is why I think it's important to expose the other side of things, because the transgender community is, in many ways, pushing for surgery to be the norm for people who hate their bodies. There is just no way I will ever see this as a beneficial development since systematic cultural change is a lot less likely as long as there are superficial "solutions". And thisisme's comparison to plastic surgery is a good one, since the obsession with surface appearance, and materialism in general, is one of the biggest problems with this culture in the first place.

Very well said. i agree 100%

 

[venusinpisces]

I expect access to, and fair treatment within, sex segregated facilities
Homeless shelters
Domestic Violence shelters
Dormitories
Drug Rehabilitation
Prisons
Bathrooms
Locker rooms
Gyms
Hostels
Juvenile justice systems
Institutions and authority figures do not force me to adopt a different gender presentation, or deny me medical treatment.
Parents, foster care
Juvenile justice systems
Schools (all K-12 schools, some religious universities)
Drug rehabilitation
Nursing homes
Prisons
.

Actually, the more I look at this list the more amusing it gets. I expect access to prisons???

edit: I suppose that could mean for visitation rights. it just seemed perversely amusing since the majority of the places on that list are places I would be happy not to visit ever again, such as anything having to do with the prison industrial complex , bureaucratic social services or the medical industry. Just about everyone suffers as a result of these institutions so I can understand the frustration as far as that goes.

 

[Matt Derrick]

this is being ridiculously over complicated, privilege boils down to this:
Different things that may or may not be personal decisions (race or sex for example) make it so that you have higher chances of being treated well in our societies. It doesn't mean every white cis-guy is gonna live like a king or that every hispanic trans-woman's life is gonna be hell, but it does mean that it's more likely and probable, that is all...

agreed!!!

 

[plagueship]

to be clear, gudj told me to read a book (some book, any book?), to read indymedia, and to go out in the real world (because i live in the matrix). this is because of two short posts i made responding with various levels of derision to the fact that certain people were addressing themselves to the subject as unquestionable authorities. to me this is not consistent with anti-authoritarian forms of discourse (which this forum supposedly is..?) and 'i feel like' it is reminiscent in ways in which authoritarian politics invades supposedly anti-authoritarian discourses and projects, often by taking up specific, usually identity-politics-based, 'causes' which lend themselves to making these kinds of claims to authority. this was the most discouraging trend i encountered in my experience with 'anarchist' social scenes, and why i no longer participate in such scenes. i would also tie this to the fact that a lot of anarchists/leftists are from middle/upper class backgrounds and are therefore not comfortable thinking about class and the basic structure of capitalism because they feel guilty about their place in it (that's usually why they become a/lefts..), so they decide to be all righteous about racism, sexism etc.

so it wasn't per se a comment about gender or privilege at all...

 

[plagueship]

I used to be like most of the posters on this thread and think that we are all equal and you are just hating on me for being white and I cant help it. But then I started listening and not just being defensive, something you should start on too.

actually maybe you should stop projecting and assuming that other people have the same thoughts and experiences that you had.

Duh, that's the fucking world that we live in

that's a pretty cold way to respond to such an intense story about personal experiences of domestic violence, dude.

First of all, way to unite our 'community' by invoking this false pc/nonpc dichotomy.

i think you're showing why this is not a false dichotomy. i actually agree with you on a lot more than you probably realize, since you are so intent on taking a righteous and authoritative stance here, which along with the assumptions you have made about me, i've found pretty annoying. see my last comment on the other thread ...

 

[Linda/Ziggy]

I feel like a potato inside.
I was born in the wrong species.
I am so horribly oppressed because you won't accept me as a potato.
Or call me by the accurate term 'Spud'.

How dare you question my 'personal choices'.

Later

 

[venusinpisces]

I feel like a potato inside.
I was born in the wrong species.
I am so horribly oppressed because you won't accept me as a potato.
Or call me by the accurate term 'Spud'.

Better be careful. You might start a trend!

 

[UrbanNokizaru]

If you aren't a trans* person you are a cis-person it's not an insult it's a fact, that's something you need to get over. Also if you are not a trans* person you do not know what it is like to be a trans* person, I'd expect this was an easy conclusion to come to. So since you actually don't have the same experiences, you know, maybe don't run around being like "your shit doesn't matter, you're being a dick, I'm gonna make fun of your struggle" since really you have no idea what you're talking about. Having people ask you to stop treating them like shit and asking you to take into account the fact that a lot of things are easier for you than they are for them shouldn't be a big deal; it should be part of not being an asshole to people because they aren't exactly like you. I don't see why this is so hard for people...

 

[Matt Derrick]

If you aren't a trans* person you are a cis-person it's not an insult it's a fact, that's something you need to get over. Also if you are not a trans* person you do not know what it is like to be a trans* person, I'd expect this was an easy conclusion to come to. So since you actually don't have the same experiences, you know, maybe don't run around being like "your shit doesn't matter, you're being a dick, I'm gonna make fun of your struggle" since really you have no idea what you're talking about. Having people ask you to stop treating them like shit and asking you to take into account the fact that a lot of things are easier for you than they are for them shouldn't be a big deal; it should be part of not being an asshole to people because they aren't exactly like you. I don't see why this is so hard for people...

this can be a difficult thread to read sometimes, but posts like this make it totally worth it. it's nice to see some sanity in this discussion

 

[Gudj]

I feel like a potato inside.
I was born in the wrong species.
I am so horribly oppressed because you won't accept me as a potato.
Or call me by the accurate term 'Spud'.

How dare you question my 'personal choices'.

Later

Funny you should say that [very unfunny thing]. Someone in my town recently made almost the exact same "argument" while being called out for transphobic bullshit. It was at that moment where some of us thought, "this kid doesn't get it, and won't in foreseeable future." and stopped trying to help that person get over their shit. Not that I expected more from you, the person who posted the most transphobic shit that this thread has seen yet. If you don't want to respect non-cis people then fine, but stop trying to convince the rest of us not to either.

Also, UrbanNokizaru: I love the sentiment of your latest post. I want to point out however that people can be niether trans nor cis, genderqueer and genderless people I think fall into that category. Maybe we just have a different understanding of the word.

 

[EphemeralStick]

I'm not really sure what all the commotion in this thread is about. If you want to be trans then be trans. if youre straight then be straight. gay's be gays and so on and so forth. I mean we are all just human in the end, so what do the little things like sexual identity or orientation matter? And so what if someone wants to be different? I thinks its safe to assume that not a single person on this site lives as a "normal" person to society's standards, so who are we to bash anyone? you dislike the idea of cis or trans people, fine but dont criticize others. and if youre a supporter fro cis or trans people, fine but dont try to shift the minds of others. people just need to learn to let things be.

 

[Cardboard]

Its funny to me somehow, without being certain, I guess that most of the people involved in this thread are middle class American kids. Making arguments on behalf of Iranian and Russian trans folk? How dare you? What do any of you know about privilege, coming from one of the most privileged places in the world (I said one of, not a nationalist by any means)? I saw the same thing in Denmark, even funnier. Danish trans folk complaining about how privileged straight people were. Go spend some time around people who are really oppressed, and really living in poverty before starting this spoiled middle class PC bullshit.

 

[Matt Derrick]

Its funny to me somehow, without being certain, I guess that most of the people involved in this thread are middle class American kids. Making arguments on behalf of Iranian and Russian trans folk? How dare you? What do any of you know about privilege, coming from one of the most privileged places in the world (I said one of, not a nationalist by any means)? I saw the same thing in Denmark, even funnier. Danish trans folk complaining about how privileged straight people were. Go spend some time around people who are really oppressed, and really living in poverty before starting this spoiled middle class PC bullshit.

Despite my other statements on this subject, i cant help but agree with this statement as well...

 

[Cardboard]

If you aren't a trans* person you are a cis-person it's not an insult it's a fact, that's something you need to get over. Also if you are not a trans* person you do not know what it is like to be a trans* person, I'd expect this was an easy conclusion to come to. So since you actually don't have the same experiences, you know, maybe don't run around being like "your shit doesn't matter, you're being a dick, I'm gonna make fun of your struggle" since really you have no idea what you're talking about. Having people ask you to stop treating them like shit and asking you to take into account the fact that a lot of things are easier for you than they are for them shouldn't be a big deal; it should be part of not being an asshole to people because they aren't exactly like you. I don't see why this is so hard for people...

"The average MTF cost was about $10,400, and the average FTM surgery (including top and, for those who had it, bottom surgery) was about $17,900."
You can afford this, and complain about the consequences. Too much privilege. I'm sorry, I don't know how it feels to be trans. I'm not sorry for how I was born however, and I am white, straight, male and American. Lame, I know. I (for one) was born this way, and whether I want to accept it or not, I deal. I didnt see many threads flaming trans folk before this one either. Someone here treated you like shit? Deal with them. You can be what you wanna be, I could give a fuck less. Just be careful of what and who you provoke. I dont mean this as a threat, but none of these people attacked you, or any lgbtqia person. You want to take this point to some Klan rallies, or Nazi conventions, be my guest, but why take it out on the communities that are offering probably the most understanding and support for gender politics?
P.S.- Equality is imaginary, No one guarantees human rights, life sucks, people are sacks of shit. Get over it.

 

[trash diver]

Humanity could learn a lot from dogs.they don't pay attention to wealth,political affiliation,sexual oreintation or even physical apperance or intellect.A dogs love is unconditional,like real love should be. I think they crucified a guy for saying something similar to this. Did'nt they?

 

[xbocax]

being transgendered is not just being a person whos had a sex change

Transgender (pronounced /trænzˈdʒɛndər/) is a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies to vary from culturally conventional gender roles.
Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity" (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both) not matching one's "assigned sex" (identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex).[1] "Transgender" does not imply any specific form of sexual orientation; transgender people may identify as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, or asexual; some may consider conventional sexual orientation labels inadequate or inapplicable to them.

if you are a white hetero male you are the norm and are treated as such
the issue comes from when anyone steps outside of what society has deemed their sexual nature to be
I do take some issue with sex change operations BUT i feel that you should not have to be treated like shit because you decided to do something with your own body
the issue at its core is that it has become acceptable to treat people like shit because they are different than the norm being the white American protestant male
females
minorities
cisgendered
etc etc etc