Let users overturn account bans with a 2/3rd majority (1 Viewer)

Is this a good idea?


  • Total voters
    34
  • Poll closed .

roughdraft

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But who's to determine what the tolerance threshold is for these things? I think thats the point of this voting feature. Finger pointing, banning, and warnings issued are being abused based off of some vague hard lines of political correctness.

well, from what i've seen over the past few years, i don't think i've ever disagreed with a ban for someone "violating the PC standards", the few I was like "WTF" about have always been someone being at odds with the administration in some other regard, something I've perceived as petty. So, I don't think we wanna see the whole voting system turn into "Yeah! If two-thirds of us aren't AS PC as the administration, we can have a bunch of x y and z here now!" Basically I don't see what you were getting at with this, political correctness comment.

I'm not the most PC person but it's one great thing about this forum how the extra bullshit isn't tolerated, as in the anti-whoever shit, whether that be racist, homophobic, etc. generalizing the shit out of a demographic
 
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coltsfoot

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The staff doesnt put up with all the bullshit you mentioned that made you feel safe on stp. Please do feel the need to vote against this type of stuff when it comes up in a ban (often) so stp can continue to be the kind of place that doesnt tolerate racist/sexist etc behavior. You wanted a vote and you got it, dont let stp turn into a dump just cause you dont feel the need to vote on something that up until this point has been taken care of without you having to be directly involved. Yer just as involved now as everybody else.

yup, thats the plan dood
 
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Basically I don't see what you were getting at with this, political correctness comment.

If you take a look at this users content I think you might get the answer yer looking for.
 

roughdraft

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word all good @SlankyLanky i see your point

well, I think @blank and @Juan Derlust especially - and even back in the day @thewindandtherain (last user to be banned before Den of The Banned, yeah, i'm a dork) should have been afforded 30-day mutings before being outright banned, and with all respect to @Matt Derrick which, we haven't met in person and I legitimately do not *know* him at all - but I think he knows I have some respect for his work here from our couple of PMs, for what that's worth - were bans based on emotional kneejerks moreso than really justified and rational thinking along the lines of like "alright, this person is bad for the forum, really bad for the forum, they must absolutely go". I'm not saying "La la la, let's try to bring them all back!!!" because it's probably too far gone even in Juan's case, and that isn't necessarily my goal to see them all magically reappear and participate on this small forum again, I'm just tryin to point this out because I see there may be a shooting-in-the-foot pattern emerging

Basically, the suggestion in OP is good and this is part of my reasoning, because even with the other mods, there can be enough 'groupthink' where the outer community (less influential members and those not of the staff) are getting fucked and that, incidentally, fucks even the inner community in the long run - it's just a theory.
 
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Blank and juan were both given multiple chances (including a pm in Juan's case) asking them to cut the shit. They didnt. It could possibly be staffs fault for not pointing out or providing every instance of a persons behavior when making a den of the banned post so it seems like bans are just thrown around, and if that's the case I'll personally try my best to provide more information in the future so people can see that it's not just some kinda personal "oh I dont like this dude so I'm banning him" kinda thing.

Theres not much more we could do to show stp that theres no "groupthink" or staff against yall kinda thing going on here. Everyone can see den if the banned posts and inevitably theres still always people thinking we are like these power hungry fascists. It's kinda silly imo but it is what it is ya know?

My concern with having the community vote on these issues is the community having to come face to face with just how many assholes there actually are on stp who dont think racism/sexism/etc etc is a problem at all and who will gladly vote to keep people they like or know personally regardless of their behavior.

Inb4 anyone thinks I'm talking about them personally. I'm not, but if you think I am then yea yer probably part of the problem.
 

roughdraft

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Blank and juan were both given multiple chances (including a pm in Juan's case) asking them to cut the shit. They didnt. It could possibly be staffs fault for not pointing out or providing every instance of a persons behavior when making a den of the banned post so it seems like bans are just thrown around, and if that's the case I'll personally try my best to provide more information in the future so people can see that it's not just some kinda personal "oh I dont like this dude so I'm banning him" kinda thing.

Aite, IIRC Blank was PM'd as well, so maybe you've got a point with that - and I cannot speak for anyone but myself so I've got nothing else to say to stick up for anyone banned, it's just good to get these thoughts off.

Anyway, sidenote, in my personal opinion, I don't think *you* get enough credit around here dude, you put a lot of work in and from what I have witnessed - you're always on top of, especially, the sex-trafficking suspect posts, and in spite of you sometimes being very blunt and rude, you deserve a lot more credit than you get publicly at least, in my opinion, for what it's worth. I'm not lookin for you to paypal me 20 bucks or anything I'm just throwin that out there while the gettin is good. And I reckon I am not the only person who feels that way
 
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Aite, IIRC Blank was PM'd as well, so maybe you've got a point with that - and I cannot speak for anyone but myself so I've got nothing else to say to stick up for anyone banned, it's just good to get these thoughts off.

Anyway, sidenote, in my personal opinion, I don't think *you* get enough credit around here dude, you put a lot of work in and from what I have witnessed - you're always on top of, especially, the sex-trafficking suspect posts, and in spite of you sometimes being very blunt and rude, you deserve a lot more credit than you get publicly at least, in my opinion, for what it's worth. I'm not lookin for you to paypal me 20 bucks or anything I'm just throwin that out there while the gettin is good. And I reckon I am not the only person who feels that way

Yea blank was pmed too. And unless I'm making shit up thewindandtherain dude was pmed a few times also.

I appreciate you saying that. I really do, I also think I do a pretty decent job at being a staff member, although I dont think that'll stop the people who call me a asshole from feeling that way but it is nice of you to say anyway. Cant please everyone right?

If staff didnt care about stp we wouldn't do what we do. And that's one thing I will speak for all of the staff on.
 

roughdraft

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yep, I'll tell ya what, I've been in many certain positions where I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt I was doing the right thing and I still got shit on, so I get that. No, you can't please everyone, especially not the wingnut dipshits

and it's hard as fuck too - to stay cognizant enough 100% of the time to appreciate the very few sensible ones who dissent with a fair amount of logic when the people who are doing a good job managing chaos, inevitably, falter - so I too will only try to do better and hopefully everybody else can get behind that as well
 

Matt Derrick

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word all good @SlankyLanky i see your point

well, I think @blank and @Juan Derlust especially - and even back in the day @thewindandtherain (last user to be banned before Den of The Banned, yeah, i'm a dork) should have been afforded 30-day mutings before being outright banned, and with all respect to @Matt Derrick which, we haven't met in person and I legitimately do not *know* him at all - but I think he knows I have some respect for his work here from our couple of PMs, for what that's worth - were bans based on emotional kneejerks moreso than really justified and rational thinking along the lines of like "alright, this person is bad for the forum, really bad for the forum, they must absolutely go". I'm not saying "La la la, let's try to bring them all back!!!" because it's probably too far gone even in Juan's case, and that isn't necessarily my goal to see them all magically reappear and participate on this small forum again, I'm just tryin to point this out because I see there may be a shooting-in-the-foot pattern emerging

Basically, the suggestion in OP is good and this is part of my reasoning, because even with the other mods, there can be enough 'groupthink' where the outer community (less influential members and those not of the staff) are getting fucked and that, incidentally, fucks even the inner community in the long run - it's just a theory.

I understand where you're coming from and I do respect your contributions to StP as well, I've never had any problems with your posts, you're always fair and even handed on both sides of the argument.

I will fully admit that @thewindandtherain, @blank, and @juanderlust were cases in which I specifically got angry and that led to a ban. But even if I disagree with someone on StP, I'll generally give them multiple chances before banning them, and even then I'll only ban someone if they are a) directly attacking me with no intention of stopping, or b) they continue to harass me about a certain subject that's already been decided upon a long time ago.

in @blank's case, they just couldn't get over the fact that we banned @Fevs, a (supposedly) reformed nazi with a giant nazi tattoo on his chest to prove it. it went over months, arguing about it and finally i was like 'can you please not bring it up anymore? the desicison has been made.' and they continuted to message me about it and even say they weren't going to stop. at this point I personally consider that staff harassment; I've given multiple chances for the person to stop, and they choose to keep going after I've nicely asked them to stop. That's pretty much textbook definition of harassment, so when people tell me I'm being unfair by banning someone that is doing that, they're telling me it's okay for them to harass me and not okay for me to do anything about it because of my position of 'perceived' power on StP.

similarly, @juanderlust was asked multiple times to stop, even in a prolonged PM where the staff collectively came together to ask them to not keep posting 30+ posts a day of nonsense of no use to anyone. then he would not stop posting on his profile posts in regards to something i posted, getting multiple pings throughout the night on my phone, and again, would not stop when specifically asked. I literally wrote "what do you want from me?" and he ignored it, keeping on his pattern of nonsense that had nothing to do with my question for several posts, and then again I said "what do you want me to say?" again, ignored for more ranting. this was literally keeping me up at night, with my phone constantly pinging his posts.

and to anyone that says 'you should have just turned off your phone', that's basically justifying the harassment and blaming the victim aka "well she shouldn't have dressed that way" instead of addressing the abuse going on.

so i have to ask, how much abuse do i have to tolerate? is that why i started StP? to be abused? is that why I put in the work on it every day, so crazy people can keep me up at night? absolutely not, and i'm pretty sure any of you would do the same thing in my position.

i'm pretty proud of the fact that i don't go immediately banning people that disagree with me, so it kind of makes it hurt all the more when people are constantly telling me 'that's not enough matt, we demand you bend over backwards to not ban someone no matter what the situation is' and frankly a little bit insulting, considering the work i put in, and the fact that these instances are less than 1% of what goes on in this community (they're just the loudest and most dramatic, so they get the most attention).

look, i'm just not the type of person to immediately pull out the ban hammer and smash someone's head in at the first instance of dissent. if i ban someone it's because I have a reason for it. like @SlankyLanky said, maybe we need to be better at describing the situation in the den of the banned threads, but in every instance i can think of, everyone's fears of people being banned unfairly are pretty damn unjustified given the evidence, and it annoys me that we have to spend so much time on this subject for something we've had rules against for several years now (staff harassment).

i would also like to point out that the majority of people making these arguments about the staff being unfair, are people that liked whatever small portion of the content the offenders posted that was useful, and completely ignoring the fact that they broke the community rules (not just once, or twice, but three or more times). it's like, "well, he made me laugh a lot so who cares if he constantly harasses the staff" and that's pretty unfair to the people that put in their time to make this space happen.
 
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roughdraft

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I understand where you're coming from and I do respect your contributions to StP as well, I've never had any problems with your posts, you're always fair and even handed on both sides of the argument.

I will fully admit that @thewindandtherain, @blank, and @juanderlust were cases in which I specifically got angry and that led to a ban. But even if I disagree with someone on StP, I'll generally give them multiple chances before banning them, and even then I'll only ban someone if they are a) directly attacking me with no intention of stopping, or b) they continue to harass me about a certain subject that's already been decided upon a long time ago.

in @blank's case, they just couldn't get over the fact that we banned @Fevs, a (supposedly) reformed nazi with a giant nazi tattoo on his chest to prove it. it went over months, arguing about it and finally i was like 'can you please not bring it up anymore? the desicison has been made.' and they continuted to message me about it and even say they weren't going to stop. at this point I personally consider that staff harassment; I've given multiple chances for the person to stop, and they choose to keep going after I've nicely asked them to stop. That's pretty much textbook definition of harassment, so when people tell me I'm being unfair by banning someone that is doing that, they're telling me it's okay for them to harass me and not okay for me to do anything about it because of my position of 'perceived' power on StP.

similarly, @juanderlust was asked multiple times to stop, even in a prolonged PM where the staff collectively came together to ask them to not keep posting 30+ posts a day of nonsense of no use to anyone. then he would not stop posting on his profile posts in regards to something i posted, getting multiple pings throughout the night on my phone, and again, would not stop when specifically asked. I literally wrote "what do you want from me?" and he ignored it, keeping on his pattern of nonsense that had nothing to do with my question for several posts, and then again I said "what do you want me to say?" again, ignored for more ranting. this was literally keeping me up at night, with my phone constantly pinging his posts.

and to anyone that says 'you should have just turned off your phone', that's basically justifying the harassment and blaming the victim aka "well she shouldn't have dressed that way" instead of addressing the abuse going on.

so i have to ask, how much abuse do i have to tolerate? is that why i started StP? to be abused? is that why I put in the work on it every day, so crazy people can keep me up at night? absolutely not, and i'm pretty sure any of you would do the same thing in my position.

i'm pretty proud of the fact that i don't go immediately banning people that disagree with me, so it kind of makes it hurt all the more when people are constantly telling me 'that's not enough matt, we demand you bend over backwards to not ban someone no matter what the situation is' and frankly a little bit insulting, considering the work i put in, and the fact that these instances are less than 1% of what goes on in this community (they're just the loudest and most dramatic, so they get the most attention).

look, i'm just not the type of person to immediately pull out the ban hammer and smash someone's head in at the first instance of dissent. if i ban someone it's because I have a reason for it. like @SlankyLanky said, maybe we need to be better at describing the situation in the den of the banned threads, but in every instance i can think of, everyone's fears of people being banned unfairly are pretty damn unjustified given the evidence, and it annoys me that we have to spend so much time on this subject for something we've had rules against for several years now (staff harassment).

i would also like to point out that the majority of people making these arguments about the staff being unfair, are people that liked whatever small portion of the content the offenders posted that was useful, and completely ignoring the fact that they broke the community rules (not just once, or twice, but three or more times). it's like, "well, he made me laugh a lot so who cares if he constantly harasses the staff" and that's pretty unfair to the people that put in their time to make this space happen.

nice dude thanks, yeah i'm supposedly a natural mediator, but don't ask me for the file on that lmao

yeah it sucks about @blank cause I thought wow, he really is the boy, but you make a solid point about him whining about the other guy getting banned. I mean, he was essentially martyring himself in order to represent the kid with the swastika tattoo, so that was a blind spot for me, clearly. didn't realize the extent of it

anyway, that was a really firm breakdown, like really, that makes perfect sense - so nice post, that's all, i won't feel guilty for bringin it out of you. hopefully that'll serve as a citation for anyone else who has the same line of questioning i walked
 
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anyway, that was a really firm breakdown, like really, that makes perfect sense - so nice post, that's all, i won't feel guilty for bringin it out of you. hopefully that'll serve as a citation for anyone else who has the same line of questioning i walked

I really hope so, but I doubt it will because this is not the first, second or even third time a staff member or matt himself has pointed this out. It's almost like clockwork when someone gets banned somebody says its purely a personal thing or its staff on a power trip. I'm not saying anything against you or anyone else in particular in this matter but we have all but sent out embroidered personalized letters to people saying this stuff. I think it is made pretty clear in each den of the banned thread that how we feel personally is not the deciding factor in bans but no matter what wording is used if a post says so much as "and this dude was being a dick also" theres gonna be people that take that as us saying "fuck this guy just cause we say so" which is 100% not the case.

I don't mean to get more off topic so I guess what I'm saying is if its voted that people get to vote on over turning bans or not dont be surprised when people start wanting to do so just cause they dont have to deal with any of the bullshit that comes with having problem users continue to be a problem. Which isnt a positive thing for the community to have to deal with at all.
 

quad8

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I like the idea, but it can depend on the severity of the offender and it would help us determine whether or not the offender is capable to follow the rules again. To add to the idea, I would like to think of this as parole. Get banned for a certain period of time, if not, years. Then go into the polling where it would take a 2/3 majority to overturn it.
 

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