Joined a few months ago for documentary research. Give me any last minute input within...

[othertanner]

Hello, folks.

As mentioned, I joined Squat the Planet by means of perusing forums and doing more research for my feature documentary on freight train riders in America. It's been immensely helpful and I thank all who have been unknowingly resourceful. We begin filming in a few weeks, and I wanted to formally ask for input in regards to what you would like to see in the film. Here's a summary of the film's thematic agenda:

"While primarily focused on individuals within freight-hopping culture, the film webs together a cast of various punks and other alt types that indulge freely outside mainstream society. The aim is to use this web of "Millennial" adolescents and young adults to create an American generational film. An impressionistic portrait, if you will. Through an approach that focuses heavily on their human roots, past experiences, adolescent dreams, and current trials and tribulations, these interesting humans act as a symbol for coming-of-age Gen-Y'ers up against America's structural challenges. For the most part, the film is politically unbiased, yet will combine subjective and objective influence through constructed scenes(in the narrative sense), yet also observant and traditional documentary tactics where necessary. It seeks to focus on this youthful persistence to create the lifestyles we had imagined for ourselves at a young age, albeit a modified version of it. These themes of the film carry very personal weight, which I think will take this film to very personal and emotional territory that resonates with the characters in front of the camera, as well as the audiences in front of the screen."

I reach out to you STP users to ask those flirting and within the culture what you would wish to see in the film. After all, this is a film for your folks. I'd love to read your words. (If this might be better suited in a different forum section, let me know and I'll cross-post.

- othertanner.

 

[lry]

I know I will probably be part of the minority but is there really a need for yet another freight train riding documentary? Why do so many people want to publicize this lifestyle so much? Have you seen the other films on Youtube? So here's the plot on nearly all of them.. "Take a bunch of oogles, feed them PBR. and watch them beat on their women and fight amongst themselves. Then make sure that someones dog attacks someone else's dog. Then the next morning they're back together again to catch the next train out of Colton." Yes, there maybe a few decent documentaries out there but most bring a bad light and sometimes I feel they attract people that aren't cut out for the lifestyle. People who get hurt due to carelessness or the like. I'm not saying its some fancy VIP club but people that fuck up ruin it for others.

Sorry I hope I don't come off like an asshole. I just feel strongly about this for some reason. But I'll answer your question though "what you would wish to see in the film". Less oogles, more riders respecting the train. So you can't have 10 people riding rear of a suicide. Please don't let anyone try to impress you by sharpening their knife. No surfing through populated cities or towns. No getting shitfaced and trying to hop. Show the long waits, and getting on the wrong train. Show the dirt, the grease, and the noise.

 

[othertanner]

I don't think you're in the minority at all, in fact, I share your opinion. Early on in the research phase, I became quite discouraged by the amount of pre-existing media. Yet, it also inspired me to create something that separates itself from the bunch. I've spent the last year accumulating research, subjects, logistics, budget, and structuring the film, so it's not "about" train-hopping. Quite the contrary. This all started evolving during a point in my life in which I was struggling to navigate America's structural challenges, despite following the path advised by my superiors. This film is more about -what I like to call- the Modified American Dream. Our subjects/characters, who are not all train hoppers(an old friend of mine who's built the yurt on an abandoned piece of land in Chicago will be featured and you may have seen the short film posted here in the past: ) are more of an emblem for a wider ideology.

I don't want to exploit what I think to be a subculture full or heart, and nor do I want to glamorize it. Ethically, I think the most questionable thing I'm having a hard time dealing with is, as you mentioned, publicity. It's certainly a risk that I hope doesn't bite me in the ass.

And don't worry, I don't think you're being an asshole. You're passionate about the lifestyle, are probably worried about me infringing on it, and you're fed up with the plethora of shitty digital media that exists in our world. You've my word that I've a strong agenda to create something far removed from your concerns, which is exactly why I've come here to seek input. And I appreciate your input very much. While we're likely to encounter oogles on the road, I can assure you we have some very respectable subjects planned, some of whom who have been riding for upwards of ten years and share your previous opinions.

Thanks for taking the time, lry!

- othertanner.

 

[Matt Derrick]

I know I will probably be part of the minority but is there really a need for yet another freight train riding documentary? Why do so many people want to publicize this lifestyle so much? Have you seen the other films on Youtube? So here's the plot on nearly all of them.. "Take a bunch of oogles, feed them PBR. and watch them beat on their women and fight amongst themselves. Then make sure that someones dog attacks someone else's dog. Then the next morning they're back together again to catch the next train out of Colton." Yes, there maybe a few decent documentaries out there but most bring a bad light and sometimes I feel they attract people that aren't cut out for the lifestyle. People who get hurt due to carelessness or the like. I'm not saying its some fancy VIP club but people that fuck up ruin it for others.

Sorry I hope I don't come off like an asshole. I just feel strongly about this for some reason. But I'll answer your question though "what you would wish to see in the film". Less oogles, more riders respecting the train. So you can't have 10 people riding rear of a suicide. Please don't let anyone try to impress you by sharpening their knife. No surfing through populated cities or towns. No getting shitfaced and trying to hop. Show the long waits, and getting on the wrong train. Show the dirt, the grease, and the noise.

Man, I really couldn't have said it better myself, and no, I don't think you're in the minority here. I think our entire community is suffering from a kind of "media fatigue". Everyone and their mom wants to see or do what we're doing, and that's great, because I feel like we should be inspiring people to 'torch the picket fence' as we say here.

but man, it feels like everyone has already done this before, and the majority of the time it's been done poorly. the majority of these documentaries focus on all the bad, horrible shit in this culture... and why? because it's easy, and it sells. i've had no less than 2 offers a month for the past 6 months to do a tv show or a documentary or to 'hook people up' with people that would be good for whatever project about train hopping their working on. it's gotten to the point where the majority of my responses are "i'll consider any project that doesn't involve train hopping".

Look, I hate it when people tear down my ideas for video projects, so i want to make it clear that's not what i'm doing here. What I am saying though is that if you want to do a project like this you've got a hell of an uphill battle ahead of you to do something different.

If you think you have something special, something that hasn't been done before, an angle or story or some way to capture our imagination in a unique way... great, fucking do it and don't let anyone stop you.

So I guess I can sum it up as yes, we're all tired of the same docs covering the same shit, but if you can tell an unbiased story that doesn't glorify or demonize our culture, I might be into it.

 

[Matt Derrick]

I don't think you're in the minority at all, in fact, I share your opinion. Early on in the research phase, I became quite discouraged by the amount of pre-existing media. Yet, it also inspired me to create something that separates itself from the bunch. I've spent the last year accumulating research, subjects, logistics, budget, and structuring the film, so it's not "about" train-hopping. Quite the contrary. This all started evolving during a point in my life in which I was struggling to navigate America's structural challenges, despite following the path advised by my superiors. This film is more about -what I like to call- the Modified American Dream. Our subjects/characters, who are not all train hoppers(an old friend of mine who's built the yurt on an abandoned piece of land in Chicago will be featured and you may have seen the short film posted here in the past: ) are more of an emblem for a wider ideology.

I don't want to exploit what I think to be a subculture full or heart, and nor do I want to glamorize it. Ethically, I think the most questionable thing I'm having a hard time dealing with is, as you mentioned, publicity. It's certainly a risk that I hope doesn't bite me in the ass.

And don't worry, I don't think you're being an asshole. You're passionate about the lifestyle, are probably worried about me infringing on it, and you're fed up with the plethora of shitty digital media that exists in our world. You've my word that I've a strong agenda to create something far removed from your concerns, which is exactly why I've come here to seek input. And I appreciate your input very much. While we're likely to encounter oogles on the road, I can assure you we have some very respectable subjects planned, some of whom who have been riding for upwards of ten years and share your previous opinions.

Thanks for taking the time, lry!

- othertanner.

ah, realized who you were after your last post... sorry i never got back to you, again, i was kinda inundated with requests like i mentioned before and going through some weird shit at the same time. i'm in a better position to give you feedback (i.e. sitting in one place without much to do) if you want to hit me up.

 

[othertanner]

Matt Derrick,

Are you pretending that you don't remember me contacting you in the past, and when I gave you details on the film, you offered to help?

- othertanner.

 

[Matt Derrick]

oh, and slight constructive criticism:

"While primarily focused on individuals within freight-hopping culture, the film webs together a cast of various punks and other alt types that indulge freely outside mainstream society. The aim is to use this web of "Millennial" adolescents and young adults to create an American generational film. An impressionistic portrait, if you will. Through an approach that focuses heavily on their human roots, past experiences, adolescent dreams, and current trials and tribulations, these interesting humans act as a symbol for coming-of-age Gen-Y'ers up against America's structural challenges. For the most part, the film is politically unbiased, yet will combine subjective and objective influence through constructed scenes(in the narrative sense), yet also observant and traditional documentary tactics where necessary. It seeks to focus on this youthful persistence to create the lifestyles we had imagined for ourselves at a young age, albeit a modified version of it. These themes of the film carry very personal weight, which I think will take this film to very personal and emotional territory that resonates with the characters in front of the camera, as well as the audiences in front of the screen."

i think you could say twice as much in half the space. i'm kinda lost after reading your description, it seems a little unfocused. are you following one subject? a group of people? there's so much more to this culture than train hopping...

 

[Matt Derrick]

Matt Derrick,

Are you pretending that you don't remember me contacting you in the past, and when I gave you details on the film, you offered to help?

- othertanner.

that's not what i said at all:

ah, realized who you were after your last post... sorry i never got back to you, again, i was kinda inundated with requests like i mentioned before and going through some weird shit at the same time. i'm in a better position to give you feedback (i.e. sitting in one place without much to do) if you want to hit me up.

not sure how that can be interpreted as pretending... more of an apology.

edit: oh, i realize that maybe you read my first post before seeing the follow up one above?

 

[Kim Chee]

Last minute input...

OK here it is: Don't pretend to be somebody you aren't. Period.

 

[othertanner]

Care to elaborate, Michael?

 

[Kim Chee]

Care to elaborate, Michael?

Sure. I see where you have made contradictory statements of how you represent your project.

Your intro states:

As mentioned, I joined Squat the Planet by means of perusing forums and doing more research for my feature documentary on freight train riders in America.

"While primarily focused on individuals within freight-hopping culture, the film webs together a cast of various punks and other alt types that indulge freely outside mainstream society.
- othertanner.

Then after getting a reply which questions the need and desirability of such a project you reply with:

I've spent the last year accumulating research, subjects, logistics, budget, and structuring the film, so it's not "about" train-hopping. Quite the contrary.
- othertanner.

Is your project about freight train riders in America?
Or
Is it not "about" train-hopping?

I understand that the population you want to film is financially poor and makes your low budget project possible, but perhaps there is somebody else you can exploit instead?

 

[othertanner]

You're confusing subject and ideology. Subscribers to the freight train hopping, squatting, hitch-hiking, nomadic, etc. lifestyles are the subject, but we're not making a film about the subculture. Rather, these folks are merely an appropriate circumstantial means to larger themes, as mentioned above. I can also assure you this project is neither downgrading to a financially poor population due to budget restrictions, nor is it exploitative.

- othertanner.

 

[Beegod Santana]

Really I'd like to see a documentary about the true hobos of of the 21st century. No, I don't mean a buncha dirty kids who hop trains and fight in every town they get to. I mean the harvest workers, farm hands, stage workers, carnies, carpenters, traveling programmers, rock hounds, flea mall rats ect. who wander this nation for employment. I don't "subscribe" to a lifestyle of being broke by the side of the road, I'm just not afraid to stick my thumb out or climb the ladder when its time to get to the next gig. Anyone can find the drunk group of kids with face tats, dogs and packs and offer them a half gallon for their dignity. Real hobos are harder to track down cause, duh, we actually work every now and then and don't rely on a silly costume to get us free shit. Find those folk and tell their stories, that I'd watch.

 

[Matt Derrick]

Really I'd like to see a documentary about the true hobos of of the 21st century. No, I don't mean a buncha dirty kids who hop trains and fight in every town they get to. I mean the harvest workers, farm hands, stage workers, carnies, carpenters, traveling programmers, rock hounds, flea mall rats ect. who wander this nation for employment. I don't "subscribe" to a lifestyle of being broke by the side of the road, I'm just not afraid to stick my thumb out or climb the ladder when its time to get to the next gig. Anyone can find the drunk group of kids with face tats, dogs and packs and offer them a half gallon for their dignity. Real hobos are harder to track down cause, duh, we actually work every now and then and don't rely on a silly costume to get us free shit. Find those folk and tell their stories, that I'd watch.

i'd fucking pay to see that.

 

[freepizzaforlife]

Now your own to something.
Only doc I've seen so far worth a shit is long gone

Really I'd like to see a documentary about the true hobos of of the 21st century. No, I don't mean a buncha dirty kids who hop trains and fight in every town they get to. I mean the harvest workers, farm hands, stage workers, carnies, carpenters, traveling programmers, rock hounds, flea mall rats ect. who wander this nation for employment. I don't "subscribe" to a lifestyle of being broke by the side of the road, I'm just not afraid to stick my thumb out or climb the ladder when its time to get to the next gig. Anyone can find the drunk group of kids with face tats, dogs and packs and offer them a half gallon for their dignity. Real hobos are harder to track down cause, duh, we actually work every now and then and don't rely on a silly costume to get us free shit. Find those folk and tell their stories, that I'd watch.

 

[Kim Chee]

I can also assure you this project is neither downgrading to a financially poor population due to budget restrictions, nor is it exploitative.

- othertanner.

So, you have the cash to compensate participants?

http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/exploit_1

exploit
verb
ɪkˈsplɔɪt
; ɪkˈsplɔɪt
1
exploit something
(disapproving) to treat a person or situation as an opportunity to gain an advantage for yourself.

So, since you don't feel you are exploiting anybody, can you explain the advantage to the participants? I haven't read of anything altruistic going on with your project.

 

[Hobo Huck]

Documentaries don't pay their subjects, in case you've never, ever watched a doc before. I might be a hobo, but I'm a documentary freak and I know that it's pretty unethical to pay documentary subjects or youll just end up with a bunch of fakes and liars doing it for money. Putting hobos on a camera isn't "exploitation", it's exploring our culture, and I hope this guy actually pulls off a real documentary about us without disrespecting our culture and secrets. I would watch THAT.

All the so-called hobo docs that I've come across are just a bunch of youtube video-diaries, and alot of them are done by all these damn oogles and foamers that simply joyride the rails for thrills. Then they upload their joyride to youtube and pretend to be a real hobo. Meanwhile they got an apartment back home or they live on mommy and daddys trustfund.

Sometimes I don't know which is worse...the shitty corporate docs done about gutterpunks, or the fake-ass shit on youtube thats done by oogles and foamers. Hopefully this othertanner kid will do a REAL documentary about us, and it's irrational to expect compensation or wads of cash from an independent documentary maker.

 

[Kim Chee]

<--------Kicks feet up on Mom's ottoman, manages a few stocks.

I have watched documentaries before (but I'll confess I'm not as serious about documentaries as you appear to be).

If the interview is conducted with no mention of payment and something is left in exchange for the interviewee's time the information gathered should be considered "genuine and untainted" by compensation, correct?

If a person were creating a documentary and spent time with someone who belongs to the poorest of the poor in this country, taking their time by asking questions about their life without trying to affect it in some kind of positive way, I think it wouldn't be unfair to consider the interviewer a parasite. Exploitation indeed.

Personally, I guess it really depends on how bad you want to see a documentary. When I was on the road, I didn't give two shits about hobo documentaries...I was living it the life and didn't need to see it secondhand, edited and with whatever effects are used to make the finished product presentable. For me, nothing I see on screen comes even close to the dullest moments in real life.

 

[Matt Derrick]

Bboooooppp, EXPOSURE SUCKKSS YAFUCKSSS

Please keep your comments more productive in the future. These kinds of posts just wastes everyone's time.

 

[Hobo Huck]

If a person were creating a documentary and spent time with someone who belongs to the poorest of the poor in this country, taking their time by asking questions about their life without trying to affect it in some kind of positive way, I think it wouldn't be unfair to consider the interviewer a parasite. Exploitation indeed.

What the heck are you talking about? Are you saying that if an independent documentary doesn't pay off their subjects, then they are exploiting people? Alright dude I'm not even going to continue debating that opinion with you, since you obviously have no freakin clue on how independent documentaries are made and funded. As a hobo that works on farms and actually makes money on the rails, I don't need a bunch of film geeeks to give me any compensation or money.

Personally, I guess it really depends on how bad you want to see a documentary. When I was on the road, I didn't give two shits about hobo documentaries...I was living it the life and didn't need to see it secondhand, edited and with whatever effects are used to make the finished product presentable. For me, nothing I see on screen comes even close to the dullest moments in real life.

Uhhhh you do realize that the documentary is being made for the general public , not just hobos, right? As a hobo, I personally like docs about hitchhiking and trainhopping, although 90% of them are pure shit. And if it's something you're not interested in, should people simply stop making documentaries because YOU don't personally agree with it? And are you also suggesting that people should just stop making documentaries or video-diaries because watching them isn't as exciting as doing it in real life? Are you for real dude?