How is "you got to go" enforced? | Squat the Planet

How is "you got to go" enforced?

A

AnOldHope

Guest
In a thread on the Hobo code, it came up that there were instances that the group would decide that an individual would have to "go", and when I asked about how this is accomplished, it was described as a group thing.

By what means does the group compel the offending individual to "go", and what is done if they refuse to leave?

Also, in those instances where there is not clear group consensus, what happens?

Does the "group thing" dynamic generally render reasonable conclusions? Is there risk that the group's powers of ejection could be misused, or rendered against the merely unpopular rather than an actual offender?

What are some of the behaviors that would lead to this ejection?
 
D

Deleted member 125

Guest
what to do when somebody comes around who makes you or somebody you are with uncomfortable or is generally not wanted around? thats really the question?

if they refuse to leave? you and who you are with leave, or you get the person to leave.

if its not a clear group consensus? either you and whoever else also doesnt want that person around leave, or the person and whoever else agrees with them leaves.

"reasonable conclusions" when dealing with somebody who has refused to leave you and other people alone? yea i think the kind of person who doesnt listen when told to leave people alone is not entitled to any kind of jury trial at that point. and the "groups power of ejection" as you put it is basically people not willing to be around assholes for whatever reason or not.

what behaviors lead to somebody being un wanted around other people? oh i dont know, maybe they fart to loud.
 
A

AnOldHope

Guest
what to do when somebody comes around who makes you or somebody you are with uncomfortable or is generally not wanted around? thats really the question?

if they refuse to leave? you and who you are with leave, or you get the person to leave.

if its not a clear group consensus? either you and whoever else also doesnt want that person around leave, or the person and whoever else agrees with them leaves.

"reasonable conclusions" when dealing with somebody who has refused to leave you and other people alone? yea i think the kind of person who doesnt listen when told to leave people alone is not entitled to any kind of jury trial at that point. and the "groups power of ejection" as you put it is basically people not willing to be around assholes for whatever reason or not.

what behaviors lead to somebody being un wanted around other people? oh i dont know, maybe they fart to loud.

In my case, I own the land could just have the police remove someone who would not leave.

What I'm asking is, how does the group "get the person to leave"? (Or in your other example, what if both sides refuse to leave?)

Who decides what is assholery? In some groups, even needless verbal hostility is considered assholery, in some it is part of the culture.

I realize not everyone is a natural teacher and I'm sorry if my questions bother you. I'm hoping there will also be contribution to the thread by someone who might see why someone would want to understand more about these things.
 
K

Kim Chee

Guest
It has always been easy for me as I didn't have land. When I didn't want somebody around me it was me who left. No explanation needed.

When I start developing recently purchased land it will all probably change and I'll have to do what you're doing and make plans for what is eventually inevitable.

If somebody has to go hopefully they can just do it on their own with minimal prodding. How about I help you load your stuff and give you a ride into town?

If they are making trouble, being counterproductive, breaking things, or making others uncomfortable and they just don't get that the welcome mat has been pulled...maybe the cops should come out before somebody gets smacked in the head with a shovel.
 
A

AnOldHope

Guest
It has always been easy for me as I didn't have land. When I didn't want somebody around me it was me who left. No explanation needed.

When I start developing recently purchased land it will all probably change and I'll have to do what you're doing and make plans for what is eventually inevitable.

If somebody has to go hopefully they can just do it on their own with minimal prodding. How about I help you load your stuff and give you a ride into town?

If they are making trouble, being counterproductive, breaking things, or making others uncomfortable and they just don't get that the welcome mat has been pulled...maybe the cops should come out before somebody gets smacked in the head with a shovel.

I think your response is very reasonable, to leave (unless in your latter example, that you have the land).

I apologize if my question was unclear. In another thread, a premise was put forward that if there were a group in a location (squat, etc), and an individual violated the code, it would be "time for them to go" or words to that effect.

Suppose there is a location of 8 people, and one of them violates the hobo code such as to provoke the "they gotta go" response. Will a group resort to violence (or destructive acts on equipment, etc) if necessary?

I've heard stories (no idea if true) of people's trailers at Slab City being burned out by the "locals" , but Slab City appears to be a very special ecosystem, perhaps distinct in some ways from the road in general?

If you were in a group, and the entire group wanted a particular person out, by what means would it be done? (This can be what you'd do, what you've seen done, what you've been told is effective, etc).
 
D

Deleted member 125

Guest
In my case, I own the land could just have the police remove someone who would not leave.

What I'm asking is, how does the group "get the person to leave"? (Or in your other example, what if both sides refuse to leave?)

Who decides what is assholery? In some groups, even needless verbal hostility is considered assholery, in some it is part of the culture.

I realize not everyone is a natural teacher and I'm sorry if my questions bother you. I'm hoping there will also be contribution to the thread by someone who might see why someone would want to understand more about these things.

you are right i dont think of myself as a natural teacher.

what you are basically asking is "how to not be around people that you dont want around". its simple, you leave, they leave, or a fight happens. unfortunetly not everyone owns their land or is willing to call the police to handle every little bump in the road. who decides what is assholery? its not like theres a meeting, its pretty clear for any reasonable person to realize if somebody is being a asshole and is no longer wanted around.
 
A

AnOldHope

Guest
you are right i dont think of myself as a natural teacher.

what you are basically asking is "how to not be around people that you dont want around". its simple, you leave, they leave, or a fight happens. unfortunetly not everyone owns their land or is willing to call the police to handle every little bump in the road. who decides what is assholery? its not like theres a meeting, its pretty clear for any reasonable person to realize if somebody is being a asshole and is no longer wanted around.

I'm sorry, I don't believe your reduction of my question is correct. Perhaps I should've linked to the original thread to explain better.

I'm wanting to learn about a more defined instance than "how to not be around people that you don't want to be around", that is a much broader idea.

I'm looking at more learning about how the "its time for [that person] to go" is brought about. I'm understanding your algorithm, in that instance "that person has to go", a fight happens? Are they warned first that violence will ensue if they don't depart? If others in the group objected to using violence, would that make a difference?

I wouldn't really call this "every little bump in the road", it's an instance where your own response indicates there is some possibility for violence. I generally think an instance like that would warrant the police.

I think reasonable minds can differ, and I'm not sure people (especially in groups and during conflict) are always reasonable. However, by what you're describing, it sounds like the unwanted person is somehow intuitively determined as an asshole by the group. What if not everyone is able to make those determinations without thought and discussion?
 
D

Deleted member 125

Guest
i cant belevee im still humoring this. i think you are taking the hobo code as some kind of definitive how to on how to act, its more of a "dont be a asshole" guide line made by bo's for bo's that unfortunetly still applies today because people dont act right.
I wouldn't really call this "every little bump in the road", it's an instance where your own response indicates there is some possibility for violence. I generally think an instance like that would warrant the police.
generally calling the police in terms of what you apparently want to know is ill advised. you really want the law to get involved in a disagreement between a group of people who are most likely guilty of doing illegal things? public intox/tresspassing/possible un related warrants. people not agreeing with each other is a pretty common thing. this isnt even a travel thing. if some dude came up to you and a friend sat down and made himself comfortable out of nowhere and yer friend told you that said person is a thief would you want to debate with the person or just tell them to leave? well i think youd have a philosophical conversation with them to the point of them wanting to leave on their own, so thats a plus for you.

I think reasonable minds can differ, and I'm not sure people (especially in groups and during conflict) are always reasonable. However, by what you're describing, it sounds like the unwanted person is somehow intuitively determined as an asshole by the group. What if not everyone is able to make those determinations without thought and discussion?
like i said, its not like people sit down and have a vote about it, if somebody doesnt want somebody else around, then somebody has to leave. its as simple as that. but the next time im with a group of people and one of us disagrees on whether or not we want somebody around ill suggest a drawn out discussion instead of just leaving or them leaving.

i realize im most likely coming off as a asshole, but its pretty common sense day to day stuff. leave, or they leave. if im with people who disagree and im the asshole, then im leaving. period. simple as that.
 
A

AnOldHope

Guest
You don't have to "humor" this, you're an adult and can participate as you will, and take responsibility for that choice.

If you read the thread, I hadn't introduced calling the police to the instance I was asking about, but when I was asked what I would do in my situation, which is different and would have a different answer. You seem to be conflating a lot of what was said and missing details that do make a difference.

Moreover, this is less about what I would do, but about what actually happens. I understand you need and want to make things simple, and from your perspective and life experience the outcome might be. Not everyone has that.

I'm more interested in understanding how the dynamic actually emerges in those instances where a group in a squat has determined a person unwanted (not necessarily within the construct of any formally stated "Code", but in the broader sense of traveler culture) and how they are compelled to leave, the premise that was inferred in the other thread and that Matt mentioned should have its own thread. I'm not advocating what should be done, I'm asking what happens in that instance (which is very different than what I'd do on my own land).

I appreciate you wanting to help (or humor, whichever helps you say it in a way you can feel okay with), but I think my question would benefit from someone with natural teaching aptitude, particularly to understand the nuances of the question being asked.
 
D

Deleted member 125

Guest
You don't have to "humor" this, you're an adult and can participate as you will, and take responsibility for that choice.

at no point did i deny responsibility for humoring you. yer absolutly right, its my call whether or not i want to answer the same question 3 times while you reword the question. i also dont think im missing details, you seem to not understand that the basic answer to all of yer questions is either you leave, or they leave, whether or not it gets physical depends on the situation. but yer right, ill leave the question to be answered further by somebody who has a natural teaching aptitude who can better understand the nuances asking somebody to leave.
 
A

AnOldHope

Guest
at no point did i deny responsibility for humoring you. yer absolutly right, its my call whether or not i want to answer the same question 3 times while you reword the question. i also dont think im missing details, you seem to not understand that the basic answer to all of yer questions is either you leave, or they leave, whether or not it gets physical depends on the situation. but yer right, ill leave the question to be answered further by somebody who has a natural teaching aptitude who can better understand the nuances asking somebody to leave.

Well, you said "I can't believe I'm still", but your call. Its not the same question, you continually reduce a more refined question to something kind of simplistic. I'm sorry you can't get the distinction between what I'm asking and the more generalized case, I'm hoping someone will.

I'm saying that if the group wants them to leave, and they don't, what happens? I've clarified a few times, at this point I think you just need things to be simple, perhaps simpler than they are. I get that the best answer you can give is "either this that or the other", but its so simplistic as to not actually be useful. It's rather like answering a set theory question with "um, it will be an element or not?"

To be more clear for any that might see the thread eventually, what happens when the group wants them to leave, and they do not wish to? How does "time for [them] to go" play out in those instances (with the understanding there may be many answers, but of particular use would be empirically observed examples).
 
D

Deleted member 125

Guest
i hope you get a answer that satisfies yer never ending need for knowledge, but i think ive about exhausted my usefulness in this thread.
 
G

Grubblin

Guest
I leave. I don't call the cops. People have enough problems in life without me calling the cops bc they're being an asshole. The only way to make sure that you don't get into this type of situation, if you own the land, is to not invite people on the land in the first place.

Since you own the land, perhaps a more political solution to the situation would be to invite them to spend the night elsewhere on the property.

Inviting people onto the property for even a night invites a certain amount of liability on yourself, the landowner. It's hard enough to deny liability on a person who is trespassing on your land. I would imagine that it's almost impossible to deny liability if they can prove that you invited them there.
 
A

AnOldHope

Guest
I leave. I don't call the cops. People have enough problems in life without me calling the cops bc they're being an asshole. The only way to make sure that you don't get into this type of situation, if you own the land, is to not invite people on the land in the first place.

Since you own the land, perhaps a more political solution to the situation would be to invite them to spend the night elsewhere on the property.

Inviting people onto the property for even a night invites a certain amount of liability on yourself, the landowner. It's hard enough to deny liability on a person who is trespassing on your land. I would imagine that it's almost impossible to deny liability if they can prove that you invited them there.

I'm very sorry, I thought I had explained better.

I'm not asking about my situation or what would happen with someone on my land. If they refused to leave if asked, I'd let the cops handle that. That was never my question, and I'm very sorry if I phrased it poorly.

In a different thread (that was not about me or my land) the premise was put forward that under certain conditions in a squat or other group context, some behavior would result in a situation described as "time for [person in question] to go".

I'm seeking to learn more culturally about how traveler culture convinces the offending person to go and what is done when they will not. I'm finding in some instances (admittedly a low enough sample population for only very low-confidence inferences) that instead of that person going, the person offended with go (phrased more as "time for me/us to go". I find that reasonable and would likely do the same.

But my question is about those instances where the group expels an individual who does not want to leave. How does it progress and what are the dynamics involved?

I will again note that I'm not asking about my situation, it was someone else who asked me what I would do, so I answered, but I'm in a very different situation.

I hope that makes more sense.
 
A

AnOldHope

Guest
Inviting people onto the property for even a night invites a certain amount of liability on yourself, the landowner. It's hard enough to deny liability on a person who is trespassing on your land. I would imagine that it's almost impossible to deny liability if they can prove that you invited them there.

Liability is a very broad area, and fortunately my assets are low enough in value to be protected by both homestead law and the differential between the fees for filing a tort claim and the recoverable value of anything I own.

As to "deny liability", that depends largely on whether you mean liability for a tort claim (negligence?) if they should be injured on the property or something similar, but the mere act of inviting someone as a guest I would find unlikely to establish sufficient bailment as to create any more exposure than the general duties of care associated with the property.

I'm not sure what that has to do with the cultural study of travelers and their experience on the road, though.
 
G

Grubblin

Guest
Then I misunderstood the post. I don't know how to answer the question of how to make people leave BC I always leave when I see things going from bad to worse. I try to make an excuse so that anyone who wants to leave with me can do so. Something along the lines of "I need something to eat, anyone else want to go?". It gives them the chance to go with me or stay put. That way if it's only me that thinks the person is being an asshole I don't ruin the whole gathering. I'll stand my ground when threatened and I have to but I'd rather remove myself (and whoever else wants to go) from the situation than to try to make someone who is already confrontational try to go away.

Funny thing is a couple of times it's the asshole that wanted to go with me so I took him (yes, it was a guy both times). Even funnier thing is that once they were away from the group they bitched about 5 minutes to me about the situation and then they were completely cool. Sometimes people just need a reset especially if they think a group is against them. I think it allowed them to save face without admitting their assholery. Nothing worse than feeling persecuted when you already feel marginalized. I know that's not what you're looking for, so good luck finding your info.

I don't know anything about the hobo code, I'm only trying to make my way through life one hour at a time.
 
K

Kim Chee

Guest
When I mentioned cop calling it was if you were the landowner and if a physical altercation could not be avoided. Understand this as dude has been told to go, been told that the cops are on the way even. There's lots of other places to be, take your shit and git if you've made yourself somehow unwelcome.

Not for a couple bo's trying to settle an argument.
Not because somebody stole your girl.
Not because there is some small problem in camp.
Not because you like calling the fucking cops.
 
A

AnOldHope

Guest
Then I misunderstood the post. I don't know how to answer the question of how to make people leave BC I always leave when I see things going from bad to worse. I try to make an excuse so that anyone who wants to leave with me can do so. Something along the lines of "I need something to eat, anyone else want to go?". It gives them the chance to go with me or stay put. That way if it's only me that thinks the person is being an asshole I don't ruin the whole gathering. I'll stand my ground when threatened and I have to but I'd rather remove myself (and whoever else wants to go) from the situation than to try to make someone who is already confrontational try to go away.

Funny thing is a couple of times it's the asshole that wanted to go with me so I took him (yes, it was a guy both times). Even funnier thing is that once they were away from the group they bitched about 5 minutes to me about the situation and then they were completely cool. Sometimes people just need a reset especially if they think a group is against them. I think it allowed them to save face without admitting their assholery. Nothing worse than feeling persecuted when you already feel marginalized. I know that's not what you're looking for, so good luck finding your info.

I don't know anything about the hobo code, I'm only trying to make my way through life one hour at a time.

I think the fact that you leave before the inciting event is probably wise, if I were not in my home I would do the same.
 
A

AnOldHope

Guest
When I mentioned cop calling it was if you were the landowner and if a physical altercation could not be avoided. Understand this as dude has been told to go, been told that the cops are on the way even. There's lots of other places to be, take your shit and git if you've made yourself somehow unwelcome.

Not for a couple bo's trying to settle an argument.
Not because somebody stole your girl.
Not because there is some small problem in camp.
Not because you like calling the fucking cops.

So far its sounding like most would not compel the other to leave, but would themselves leave . This seems to be a useful advantage of the traveler lifestyle, you have no need or want to defend any particular piece of ground, so you can just leave.

Perhaps there is no existing (or at least common) dynamic of a group expelling someone who would not leave, it sounds like most or all of the group would move on (when this originally came up I had wondered if the group simply moves on without the offending individual).

Are there favorable locations such that travelers may feel the need to defend them, at least for the night? In those instances, would a noxious individual be more likely to be responded to with a coherent group response to expel them?
 
K

Kim Chee

Guest
...Are there favorable locations such that travelers may feel the need to defend them, at least for the night? In those instances, would a noxious individual be more likely to be responded to with a coherent group response to expel them?

This is probably more relevant to homebum camps and squatting situations neither of which have I experienced.
 

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