Guns/gun violence - thoughts? (1 Viewer)

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SaltyCrew

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Sorry man, but that was a personal attack, it's not that I "feel" as though I'm being attacked. You attacked me by going after my motivations, rather than addressing my argument. By making it about how I "want to control people", you're making the discussion about me as a person, rather than addressing the argument presented. It's not a matter of perspective; objectively, you made a statement that attacks my character. Either you did it consciously, or it was a mistake, but please don't try to play with sophistry to try and make it out like it didn't happen.

The argument isn't about whether or not I want to control people, the argument is about the effect of gun regulations on deaths.
Alright man, I apologize for attacking (holding you accountable for) your personal beliefs. I was only trying to understand where your motivations came from/what they are. No deception involved, I promise, I just personally do not consider it attacking. But hey, that's just my opinion.
 

Dameon

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Alright man, I apologize for attacking (holding you accountable for) your personal beliefs. I was only trying to understand where your motivations came from/what they are. No deception involved, I promise, I just personally do not consider it attacking. But hey, that's just my opinion.
My motivation is straightforward. I want less people to die because of guns. I don't know why you keep bothering with the non-apologies. You didn't attack my personal beliefs, you made it about my personal motivations, just like you continue to do, and said that I want to control people, which is an attack on me as a person. Either stronger gun regulations will save lives, or they won't, and that's independent of whether I'm a megalomaniac or not. Even if I was a baby-killing Nazi who wants to see the world bow before him, it would have zero effect on whether I'm right or wrong.
 

roughdraft

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it does make sense yeah, "controlling people" is an implicit part of any law. it's basically cheapening to the meaning and effect of a specific law to reduce it to.... "you *just* want to control people"
 

SaltyCrew

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My motivation is straightforward. I want less people to die because of guns. I don't know why you keep bothering with the non-apologies. You didn't attack my personal beliefs, you made it about my personal motivations, just like you continue to do, and said that I want to control people, which is an attack on me as a person. Either stronger gun regulations will save lives, or they won't, and that's independent of whether I'm a megalomaniac or not. Even if I was a baby-killing Nazi who wants to see the world bow before him, it would have zero effect on whether I'm right or wrong.
Right on man, I respect your intentions, also your ability to debate. I choose to "play devil's advocate" (for lack of a better term in 2019). I would like to see a world with no violent crime at all, where folks have the ability to decide right and wrong for themselves, ultimately choosing right, under their own accord. I believe we (you and I, please don't take this as an attack in my calculated assumption of your personal belief/motivation) have the same end goal, just a difference in means.
 

WyldLyfe

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I would like to see a world with no violent crime at all, where folks have the ability to decide right and wrong for themselves, ultimately choosing right, under their own accord.
^ This here is what it comes down to, to get to the point of it all.. Its about people knowing right from wrong, and choosing to do right or good. To add to your comment.

Law of freedom.
Freedom and morality are directly proportional. As morality increases, freedom increases. As morality declines freedom declines. Another way of stating this law would be to say that the presence of truth and morality in the lives of the people of any given society is inversely proportional to the presence of tyranny and slavery in that society. If a particular man made law is in harmony with natural law, then it follows logically that it is redundant, since it is stating a truth that is inherent, pre-existing and self evident, Therefore it is both irrelevant and unnecessary. If a particular man made law is in opposition to natural law, then it follows logically that it is both false (incorrect) and immoral (harmful) or in other words wrong. Therefore it can not be legitimately binding upon anyone.

Natural law
Based upon principles and truth (inherent to creation) Harmonized with due to knowledge and understanding. Universal; exists and applies anywhere in the universe, eternal and immutable; exists and applies as long as the universe exists, and cannot be changed.

Mans law
Based upon dogmatic beliefs (constructs of the mind) complied with due to fear of punishment. Differs with location based upon the whim of the legislators (moral relativism) changes with time based upon the whim of legislators (moral relativism)

True freedom can never exist in a society that embraces moral relativism (the idea that there is no inherent and objective difference between right and wrong, so humanity may arbitrarily “create” or “decide” right and wrong for themselves.)

Morality: Right: correct, truth, harmony, actions based in no harm unless for self defence or protection. Wrong: Incorrect, not based in truth, immoral, actions based in harm of other beings.
Every harmful action that a human being is capable of taking is a form of theft. Some form of property is always being stolen when a wrong-doing is committed. Life is a form of property, Rights is a form of property and Freedom is a form of property.

Anarchy: from the Greek prefix an-(av-) “without; the absence of” and the Greek noun archon “master; ruler” anarchy does not mean “without rules it literally means “without rulers; without masters.”

True freedom includes infinite possibility, which, by definition, includes the possibility of chaos. This possibility must be embraced without fear if we are to be truly free. The fear of the possibility of chaos is the fear of freedom, that does not mean do not take precautions in life when necessary.
 

benton

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I live in England - over here guns are difficult to get hold of legal or illegal - we also have very few spree killers shooting up schools / malls etc - I can think of 2 in the last 30 years....

I've never been to the States but I get the impression that guns are everywhere, legal and illegal - you also seem to have people shooting up schools / malls on the regular..

so am I being too simplistic when I say surely it's the widespread availability of guns that leads to these shootings ? you can tinker with the law all you like but with that much firepower lying around these killings seem inevitable - a psycho can find weapons quickly and easily...

I know that many Americans hold the 'Right to Bear Arms' as sacred but over here we have very few guns and get on just fine without them....
All the knife deaths across London so far this year

As of September 6, there have been 99 violent deaths in the capital.

Twenty teens have been killed in the capital this year, 18 of whom were fatally stabbed.

Richard Taylor, 70, father of Damilola Taylor, who was 10 when he was stabbed to death in 2000, said: "This is nothing but a national crisis. Some teenagers see either being murdered or killing another person as a rite of passage when that used to be getting a job or going to university."

This year got off to a bloody start when mum-of-one Charlotte Huggins, 33, was knifed to death at her home in Camberwell, South East London on New Year’s Day.

Just hours later security guard Tudor Simionov, 33, was stabbed outside a VIP sex party in Park Lane, Mayfair.

He was attacked as he tried to stop gatecrashers storming into the private bash.

Tudor had left his native Romania in search of a job and a brighter future in the UK.

His girlfriend said the couple had moved to London just two months before he was killed.

A week later Jaden Moodie, 14, was stabbed to death in East London after being knocked off a moped.

On January 29, another teen Nedim Bilgin, 17, was chased down a busy street in Islington and stabbed several times, while Lajean Richards, 19, a Domino's delivery driver, was knifed repeatedly in a car park outside a four-storey block of flats where he lived with his mum on February 5.

Doting dad-of-one Dennis Anderson, 39, was fatally slashed across the neck outside an off-licence in East Dulwich in a row about cigarettes on February 10.

Bright Akinleye, 22, was stabbed in a street near Euston station on February 18 before staggering into a hotel lobby where he collapsed and died.

On February 21, Glendon Spence, 23, was fatally stabbed at a youth club in Brixton, in South London.

Kamali Gabbidon-Lynck, 19, was killed in Wood Green after being chased into a hair salon the following day.

And on February 25, Spaniard David Lopez-Fernandez, 38, was pronounced dead after being found with stab wounds at a house in Tower Hamlets, East London.

The next day, Che Morrison, 20, died after being stabbed to death outside Ilford station in East London.

On March 1, Jodie Chesney, a 17-year old girl, was fatally stabbed in Harold Hill, Essex, as she listened to music with pals in a park.

Elize Stevens, 50, died of stab wounds in Hendon on March 2 and David Martinez, 26, was stabbed to death in Leyton, East London, on March 6.

He was knifed in the back and neck and left to die in the arms of passers-by after being dragged from his home in broad daylight.

On March, 7, 17-year-old Ayub Hassan was knifed multiple times outside a Waitrose supermarket near West Kensington Tube station.

Nathaniel Armstrong, 29, was fatally knifed in the early hours of Saturday, March 16, in Fulham.

Mr Armstrong's relative, Good Morning Britain's Alex Beresford, had spoken out about knife crime 11 days before the killing.

On March 22, 17-year-old Abdirashid Mohamoud, of Brentford, was stabbed to death near flats in Isleworth, West London, after being chased by two attackers.

In another shocking attack shopkeeper Ravi Katharkamar, 54, was stabbed in the chest while opening his Pinner shop on March 24, and died 45 minutes later.

On March 28, aspiring music producer Zahir Visiter, 25, was reportedly stabbed to death for a £60,000 watch before the knifemen fled into a mosque near Regent's Park.

The next day, dad-of-three Gavin Garraway, 40, was fatally knifed in broad daylight in Clapham, South London, on March 29.

Gavin was knifed through the window of his car in broad daylight before his attackers sprinted away.

His killing came ahead of two days of bloodshed in the capital - with five people stabbed in four days in close proximity to each other in Edmonton, North London, in random attacks.

On April 1, Calvin Bungisa, 22, was chased and attacked in Gospel Oak by four men who kicked and stabbed him to death.

Calvin's family, who described him as a happy man who "was always laughing", had fled war in Congo.

On April 23, 21-year-old Meshak Williams was stabbed to death in a string of four knifings in just seven hours across London.

Joshua White died from injuries after being stabbed in Homerton, Hackney, on April 27.

On May 1, 15-year-old Tashaun Aird, an aspiring music producer, was knifed to death in Hackney. His death made him the youngest person to be killed by a blade attack after Jaden Moodie, 14, was murdered in January.

Four days later Junior McCauley, 18, was chased and stabbed to death as he marked the anniversary of his friend who was shot dead exactly one year ago.

A friend said Junior was meeting friends near Elephant and Castle to pay tribute to Rhyheim Barton, 17, who was gunned down in the borough on May 5 last year.

On May 26, 23-year-old Alimuz Zaman was chased and stabbed up to seven times with a "Rambo Knife" in East London.

Between June 14 and June 18 five people were murdered in just six days in the capital.

David Bello-Monerville, 38, was fatally stabbed outside his Barnet home in the early hours of June 19.

His brother Joseph Burke-Monerville was shot in 2013 in a case of mistaken identity. He was 19.

Their eldest brother, Trevor Monerville, was stabbed to death in 1994, aged 26. No one has been convicted of either killing.

Giedrius Juskauskas, 42, was stabbed to death in Stratford in the early hours of June 16.

That killing followed three homicides in the space of 24 hours, including two teens who were fatally attacked at teatime on June 14.

Cheyon Evans, 18, was found stabbed in Tooting, South West London, at 4.42pm, and died at the scene.

Just 12 minutes later Eniola Aluk, 19, from Thamesmead, South East London, was shot dead in a car park in Plumstead.

On June 15, Gleb Stanislavovitch Zhebrovsky, 34, was stabbed to death in a field next to a nursery and a mosque in Tower Hamlets, East London, just before 2pm.

On June 26 Yusuf Mohamed, 18, was fatally stabbed in the heart while he was out buying milk for his mum.

Three days later, heavily pregnant Kelly Mary Fauvrelle, 26, was found with stab injuries at her home in Thornton Heath, south London. She died at the scene.

Her baby, who her family named Riley at her request, was delivered at the scene but tragically died four days later.

On July 3, Tesfa Campbell, 40, was stabbed to death as he walked down the road in South West London.

On July 5, a man in his 30s was shot dead in Harrow Road, Wembley, while the body of a woman in her 30s was found in a garage in Blackheath, South London, on the same day.

Two days later, Grineo Daka, from Stratford, was shot dead at snooker club in Leyton, while a man in his 20s was found dead in a park in Wembley.

On July 11, Kye Manning, 19, was stabbed to death during fight in Croydon. Just a day earlier, a man in his 20s was stabbed to death in Kidbrooke, South East London.

On July 12, Akbar Arizo, 64, and Layla Arizo, 74, were found fatally stabbed inside their home in South West London.

On July 18, Diane Dyer, 61, was bludgeoned to death at her home in Beckenham.

Robert Komuro, 41, died of head injuries on July 23 in Yiewsley, Hillingdon.

On July 25, Abdullahi Hassan, 20, died during a double stabbing in South Hampstead.

A teenager was arrested over thesuspected "targeted" hit and run of Liam Dent in Chessington on July 26.

Widow Dorothy Woolmer, 89, was battered to death in her home on August 4, before 16-year-old Alex Smith was stabbed to death "with a foot-long machete" in Camden on August 12.

Since that shocking attack five more teens have been knifed to death on the streets of the capital.

Solomon Small, 18, was knifed to death in Brixton on August 15 while Amrou Greenidge, also 18, died in hospital after being deliberately knocked off his bike by a vehicle in Fulham and attacked as he lay on the street.

Santino Angelo Dymiter, 18, from Plaistow, was stabbed to death in Chadd Green, East London, on August 26.

Lee Casey, 39 was fatally knifed on Brixton Hill, South London, on August 29.

Laura Rakstelyte, 31, was killed in Ilford on August 29.

Sandra Samuels, 44, was killed in North London on August 31.

Two fifteen-year-olds Michael Irving and Perry Jordan Brammer both died after suffering multiple stab wounds in West Ham and Tottenham respectively between September 3 and 5.

A woman in her 20s, named locally as Shakira Mercedes, was found stabbed on September 8 in Camden, North London.

Less than a mile away, a man was shot in Kentish Town and pronounced dead at 12.10am on September 9 - with police launching a murder probe.

2018 was London’s bloodiest year in almost a decade as the murder toll reached 132.

There were 73 deaths involving a knife, 13 involving a gun and one a crossbow.

There was a spike in violent crime in February and March, where 18 homicides were recorded each month.

These were the second highest monthly totals recorded since April 2010 and saw London’s murder rate overtake that of New York.
 

benton

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If you have concerns about the legitimacy of any sources anybody's brought up here, you should feel free to bring up those specific concerns and evidence of them. Otherwise, you're not contributing in any meaningful way, just giving some vague mutterings about how they can't be trusted.
your characterizations are solely comprised of opinions

Here's another opinion: ridicule should not be allowed in a proper debate
 

Dameon

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These were the second highest monthly totals recorded since April 2010 and saw London’s murder rate overtake that of New York.
STATUnited KingdomUnited States
Intentional homicide rate1.17
Ranked 74th.
4.7
Ranked 7th. 4 times more than United Kingdom
Murder rate722
Ranked 34th.
12,996
Ranked 9th. 18 times more than United Kingdom
Murder rate per million people11.68
Ranked 94th.
42.01
Ranked 43th. 4 times more than United Kingdom

You can list off every "knife" murder that's ever happened in the UK individually, sure, or you could actually look at the data, which shows that there are far fewer murders in the UK overall.
 

MFB

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RUN, HIDE, FIGHT, thats what I learned about guns at my last job.
Me too!
Did ya have to watch that silly video?!?
If so...
Did you have to watch the one about not giving somebody tea if they dont want any tea?
 

Brodiesel710

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Me too!
Did ya have to watch that silly video?!?
If so...
Did you have to watch the one about not giving somebody tea if they dont want any tea?
Yeah we watched a video. It was about handling an active shooter situation, when I worked at Union Pacific. It's all too real, considering there was an employee who shot his boss to death in Klamath Falls a few years back.
 

LEAN

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The current estimate for gun ownership is around 400 million guns and the population is right up around there, so around 1 gun for every person in the US. I myself have shot and owned guns but I don't think banning from people who haven't done anything wrong is the answer. What happens with all the guns and gangs who don't care about the law?

I personally feel that mass shootings are a symptom of the environment we live in. If the mainstream news would ignore them, then other people wouldn't get the idea that they can do the same thing. Look at how the last 10 mass shootings glorified the person and posted their name and photo everywhere, basically doing exactly what the person wanted to be.

Sure guns are dangerous but so are cars, alcohol, cigarettes, RIDING TRAINS, etc.
 

Dameon

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What happens with all the guns and gangs who don't care about the law?
Where do you think they get their guns? Illegal guns start out as legal guns. It takes time, but they lose their guns too as they get seized and sources dry up.

I personally feel that mass shootings are a symptom of the environment we live in.
Even if this were true (and it probably is, to some extent), mass shootings are literally the smallest problem with guns being relatively uncontrolled. There's gun violence in general, suicides, and accidents. I should note, though, that countries with strict gun control don't generally have mass shootings like we have, which suggests that our lack of regulation does have some impact.

Sure guns are dangerous but so are cars, alcohol, cigarettes, RIDING TRAINS, etc.
Gee, if only we had to register our cars and have them regularly inspected, and required a license to possess and operate one after going through educational courses and being tested on our ability to safely operate it. If only somebody regularly oversaw our use of cars and could take away our right to operate one if we were found to be operating it unsafely, or unable to properly operate it. If only we were legally required to have our cars insured so that if we injured somebody else or their property we'd be able to compensate them. If only makers of cars were highly regulated and inspected for their safety.

Also, RIDING TRAINS is highly regulated for safety. As are alcohol and cigarettes. Despite the fact that none of those things is a weapon designed explicitly for killing other living humans. You can own a gun at a much, much younger age than you can drink a beer.
 

Dameon

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,Alcohol & cigs are weapons designed to kill & processed food. Seems there is a pattern of these shooters tend to be on psychiatric meds ..which the allopathic medical field is just as dangerous
All one big script
Either way why worry
That's kind of ridiculous. When people brew up a batch of beer, they're not going "yeah, gonna kill some people today." When you hate somebody and want them to die, you don't attack them with a pack of cigarettes. Those are products which were created for certain purposes which can have negative side effects, not weapons created with the exclusive purpose of killing.
 

Dameon

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It kills you over time. time is an illusion .
If it kills you over time, and time is an illusion, then it doesn't kill you. You're talking in circles. The problem was never the duration before death, the problem is the intent in creation. If you want to classify literally anything that can kill you as a weapon, then literally everything is a weapon because literally everything can kill you. At that point, the word "weapon" becomes completely useless in the English language because you've removed all meaning from it.
 

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