Guns/gun violence - thoughts? (1 Viewer)

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Dameon

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Yes I most definitely agree with that statement. My point of posting all that info was to show that violent people exist, firearms or not. I think the real question here that @Juan Derlust already stated in an earlier post, is what exactly is it with American culture that makes people commit these atrocities?
Nobody has argued that violent people don't exist without firearms. But you just said in one sentence that violent people exist, firearms or not, and then in the next sentence you bring up the question of what it is about American "culture" that makes people commit these atrocities. It's not cultural, it's exactly what you said. Violent people exist regardless of firearms, just like you said, but firearms enable people to commit atrocities way beyond what you can do without them, with far less pre-meditation. The difference isn't culture, because we've established that we aren't more or less violent than other cultures, it's practically unlimited access to firearms.
 

WyldLyfe

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I reckon some of these shootings are planned by the government to take away peoples guns.. im not saying there fake, and that people don't actually die, but you can look up crisis actors, its a thing aswell. And some just happen an they work with it.

But yeah they took guns away from people here.. people can still own them but theres a screening and stuff. Theres no way near as many as America has. The thing is yeah some people have said the government wants to take away there guns, so they can just go in an full go tyrannical on the people.. because Americas like the last western country left with all there guns.. once they lose there guns then they could go ahead with the tyrannical shit.. because they couldn't do it now to say UK for example because then Americans would be like.. wait lets not give up our guns cause look whats going on over there.. But.. thats just not how the government seems to do these things they are more sneaky then that.. they do stuff to cause a solution, cause an action then give the solution they wanted to do anyway..

Its like 9/11, usa wants to invade another country to take its oil an stuff but they can't just do that because people would be like hey thats wrong! so they fly a plane into a building an blame it on another country they want to invade.. and the people are ok with this then.. so they get to go in.

Also divide an conquer is there game, if people are fighting amongst themselves, if they can get people to do that, or if they just do they can bring in more "security" and man made laws for peoples "safety" its so obvious.

What people need to do is learn to heal.. humanity needs to heal, every one has got trauma and wounds and stuff that needs to be looked at an dealt with instead of flinging there crap onto every one else.. every one wants change but no one wants to change.. it seems, at times.

maybe in schools it could help to teach children how to manage emotions better and talk with people about things, instead of just work, work, homework, detention, detention... but oh wait most the grown ups struggle with that too..
 
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Dameon

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I reckon some of these shootings are planned by the government to take away peoples guns.. im not saying there fake, and that people don't actually die, but you can look up crisis actors, its a thing aswell. And some just happen an they work with it.
This is 100% conspiracy fantasy. Crisis actors are not a real thing. There is zero evidence that they are, even with the state of facial recognition technology (which is pretty advanced and accurate just on the civilian level). There is zero credible evidence that any mass shootings were false flag operations.

Even if the conspiracy was real (and it's not), the vast majority of gun deaths are unrelated to mass shootings. The numbers clearly show we have a very real problem, not some government conspiracy.

These claims do real harm while not furthering the conversation in any way. Victims of mass shootings get death threats and heavy harassment from people who believe they're "crisis actors". Imagine going through that kind of harassment after having already gone through a hugely traumatic experience.

We need to base our conclusions on real facts and actual numbers, not vague talk of some one-world conspiracy to take away our guns for world domination.
 

WyldLyfe

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At the end of the day its up to people to do there own research and come to there own conclusions about all this, and similar topics, its fine if people disagree with things said. Be sure to check where those "real facts" and "actual numbers" come from too..
 

Dameon

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At the end of the day its up to people to do there own research and come to there own conclusions about all this, and similar topics, its fine if people disagree with things said. Be sure to check where those "real facts" and "actual numbers" come from too..
If you have concerns about the legitimacy of any sources anybody's brought up here, you should feel free to bring up those specific concerns and evidence of them. Otherwise, you're not contributing in any meaningful way, just giving some vague mutterings about how they can't be trusted.
 

blank

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What you posted wasn't a perspective backed up by facts, it was a narrative that has been pushed by wingnuts for generations. None of those things, crisis actors, 9/11, etc. have been established as true. It's just a story that sounds right to someone based on their own limited understanding. It's like if I told you the answer to a complex equation was the number 3, if I sound authoritative enough to be convincing you might believe me, but that doesn't mean it's 3.
 

roughdraft

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the idea of crisis actors is kinda frustrating to me actually

Like, ¨there is no way there was an actual shooting....it has to be some kind of fabricated hadidida¨

Seems kinda like a form of denial to something that is (unfortunately) feasible

One of those things that just distracts from the real problems, but is ¨disguised¨ as ¨the ´real´ truth¨
 

roughdraft

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maybe in schools it could help to teach children how to manage emotions better and talk with people about things, instead of just work, work, homework, detention, detention... but oh wait most the grown ups struggle with that too..
This shit makes sense though, I don´t know what the answer is with guns, but we could probably use a gigantic cultural change that involves better communication and more cooperative instead of competitive attitudes. Anyway, how are we gonna do that
 

SaltyCrew

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And it's not just violent crime that would be affected; accidental gun injuries/deaths would drop to near zero. Successful suicide rates plummet after strong gun legislation. Even if you pretend that gun violence rates wouldn't drop at all after strong gun legislation, the other two categories make a large portion of gun deaths. Your right to have a gun has a very real cost in lives, no matter how you cut it. You have to decide exactly how much blood you're okay with having on your hands.
If there were no firearms at all, then yes I agree with you that there would be no accidental deaths involving firearms, no suicides by firearms, and no violent crime deaths by firearms. Suicides and violent crimes in general would still exist though, along with people accidentally killing themselves in many other ways.

Suicide by firearm is actually the majority of death by firearm in the US, not just a large portion. It's more accurate to say that murder by firearm makes up a large portion of death by firearm in the US, second to suicide, which is the majority of death by firearm in the US.

 

Dameon

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If there were no firearms at all, then yes I agree with you that there would be no accidental deaths involving firearms, no suicides by firearms, and no violent crime deaths by firearms. Suicides and violent crimes in general would still exist though, along with people accidentally killing themselves in many other ways.
Violent crime would still exist, but deaths from violent crime would decrease substantially. People would attempt suicide, but the amount of successful suicide attempts would decrease substantially. The result is a huge decrease in the amount of deaths.

Yes, people are going to die no matter what we do, so is the point that we just don't do anything about preventable deaths because eventual death is inevitable?
 

SaltyCrew

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Yes, people are going to die no matter what we do, so is the point that we just don't do anything about preventable deaths because eventual death is inevitable?
There are many ways people die other than natural causes, that in fact dwarf the numbers of what we are discussing. Heart disease, cancer, diabetes; If you try to implement laws to account for them all, eventually we will all be living in a bubble. Why do you, @Dameon , perceivably want to attempt to control other people? Why is it of your concern if people choose to commit suicide, wether it be by firearm, ciggarette, or Big Mac? Trying to figure out WHY people want to commit suicide, or murder others, would be of greater help to humanity than trying to control them. There exists the constant in society, that people are trying to control other people. And in my opinion, that's wrong.

The only person to decide what's right for yourself, ought to be yourself.

Murder is the most terrible thing there is, in my opinion. I acknowledge it exists, am aware of my surroundings, do my best to avoid it, am prepared to defend my own life if needed, and lead by example of not murdering people, in hopes that the few bad eggs will get the hint that the rest of us do not think it's right to do. The largest proponent of murder in time is our governments, our leaders. Leading by example, they are. It stands to reason that if they can do it, we can do it. Does it not? This is a possible reason for people to think murder is inevitable. I for one think it's possible for people to exist without murder, without being forced into a bubble.

Even if firearms, or gun powder for that matter, were never invented or discovered, I think Society would simply be very much different than we know it to be, no better or worse. Governments would probably not exist on the scale we know them to be without firearms or gun powder, but still, folks have died by way of sword far longer than by firearm. It all comes back to WHY are people trying to control other people? Where did this imperialistic ideology come from?
 

WyldLyfe

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If you have concerns about the legitimacy of any sources anybody's brought up here, you should feel free to bring up those specific concerns and evidence of them. Otherwise, you're not contributing in any meaningful way, just giving some vague mutterings about how they can't be trusted.
I've not read any sources or links in the thread, and was referring to your last post when you said "real facts and numbers" and yeah.. stuff can be twisted and manipulated, or just not recorded correctly by officials how do you know it hasn't been? we don't know if it has or hasn't. Im not saying it has been or that everything is but for somethings in general they can be and people should be aware of that. You can say ive not contributed in any meaningful way, if you want but you only took one tiny bit outta my whole post to mention, and the way you say this as if telling me to just move along, well I can post as much or as little as I want here and if its not braking forum rules, you have no say, your not a mod.

What you posted wasn't a perspective backed up by facts, it was a narrative that has been pushed by wingnuts for generations. None of those things, crisis actors, 9/11, etc. have been established as true. It's just a story that sounds right to someone based on their own limited understanding. It's like if I told you the answer to a complex equation was the number 3, if I sound authoritative enough to be convincing you might believe me, but that doesn't mean it's 3.
You know what, sometimes its just about being observant, and noticing things or connecting dots.. an example.. people have mobile phones.. when you go to the grocery store people can now tap on there phones to buy stuff, this has been going on for a while.. instead of real money, in there bank cards there is also a microchip now too which can be taped on, an some grocery stores are becoming self serving, and half those machines take no physical cash. That whole idea about the tap on, tap off microchiped bank card or phone.. has been in a way preparing people to microchiped themselves.. and it was not to long ago that people in sweden have begun to microchip themselves in the hand.. so they can tap on things like to open doors ect.. they promote things as cool, helpful and the next best thing or a good idea and people, some, go along with it. Many are opposed to this though.


This shit makes sense though, I don´t know what the answer is with guns, but we could probably use a gigantic cultural change that involves better communication and more cooperative instead of competitive attitudes. Anyway, how are we gonna do that
Saw this last night, feel this person explains it well.

 

Dameon

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There are many ways people die other than natural causes, that in fact dwarf the numbers of what we are discussing. Heart disease, cancer, diabetes; If you try to implement laws to account for them all, eventually we will all be living in a bubble.
Because those are natural causes. Guns are not natural causes. You're trying to argue the "slippery slope" argument, like the natural outcome of strong gun regulations is a world where we can't smoke a cigarette or eat a burger because it's not healthy. This is patently untrue, and not how it's worked out in other countries that have had strong gun regulation for several decades.

Why do you, @Dameon , perceivably want to attempt to control other people?
There's no point in trying to make it out like I personally just want to control people. Don't attack me as a person.

Why is it of your concern if people choose to commit suicide, wether it be by firearm, ciggarette, or Big Mac?
Having unhealthy habits is not anywhere near in the same realm of making a conscious choice to immediately end your own life. Most people who attempt suicide don't actually want to die, they need help and make a bad decision in a moment of pain. That's why you actually see a decline in successful suicides without the presence of a gun. If somebody truly wants to kill themselves, there's nothing stopping them from doing it successfully, guns or not. It's not about taking that choice out of their hands. It's about regulating access to a tool that makes it easy to make that choice in a fit of passion with no chance to take it back.

There exists the constant in society, that people are trying to control other people. And in my opinion, that's wrong.
The entire point of living in a society is to "control" other people, so we don't have people just running around stealing, murdering, and raping at will. If your right to own a gun significantly impacts my right to be alive, we need to look at constraining one of those rights.
 

blank

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David Icke believes in/tries to sell people on interdimensional reptilians stressing us out because it's an energy source and that a bunch of people are holograms or some shit.
 
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Juan Derlust

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For crying out loud, the department of fish and game requires a license and restricts the methods used and bag limits for killing game - you'd think we could at least do the same with folks hell-bent on killing humans
 

SaltyCrew

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There's no point in trying to make it out like I personally just want to control people. Don't attack me as a person.


The entire point of living in a society is to "control" other people, so we don't have people just running around stealing, murdering, and raping at will. If your right to own a gun significantly impacts my right to be alive, we need to look at constraining one of those rights.
I'm not attacking you, I addressed you. Sorry you feel as though you're being attacked. I assure you I am not. But it's my perspective against yours I guess. I apologize if I made you feel that way.

Do explain how you're not trying to control people, when you said yourself that's the point of society? Which is your opinion, by the way. And you seeming to be in favor of creating laws to control people, would make it out to be perceived that way, as I said. In my opinion, anyway.
 

SaltyCrew

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For crying out loud, the department of fish and game requires a license and restricts the methods used and bag limits for killing game - you'd think we could at least do the same with folks hell-bent on killing humans
We do, it's called the military, and the bag limit is unlimited. Get a whole new ID and everything! Plus discounts at your local auto parts store for being such an outstanding citizen, and professional murderer.
 
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Juan Derlust

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[QUOTE="SaltyCrew, post: 284197, member: 23243"p
We do, it's called the military, and the bag limit is unlimited. Get a whole new ID and everything! Plus discounts at your local auto parts store for being such an outstanding citizen, and professional murderer.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the clarification - police too, no?

I'm guessing your point here is you should be entitled to equivalent firepower? Does that include rocket-propelled grenades or surface-to-air missiles?

Tell me more about this discount - as a veteran ('84-'88), that might come in useful
 
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SaltyCrew

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[QUOTE="SaltyCrew, post: 284197, member: 23243"p
We do, it's called the military, and the bag limit is unlimited. Get a whole new ID and everything! Plus discounts at your local auto parts store for being such an outstanding citizen, and professional murderer.
Thanks for the clarification - police too, no?

I'm guessing your point here is you should be entitled to equivalent firepower? Does that include rocket-propelled grenades or surface-to-air missiles?

Tell me more about this discount - as a veteran ('84-'88), that might come in useful
[/QUOTE]

It's 10% discount...pretty mediocre. Nothing fabulous. If you order online you get 20% off. Both cannot be applied though, sorry?
 

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