Guns/gun violence - thoughts? (1 Viewer)

Dameon

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yeah totally let's all support an arbitrary racist ableist legalistic framework to prevent marginalized people from accessing tools to effectively defend themselves against the fascists that already have them
It doesn't have to be arbitrary, or racist, or ableist. There are definitely ways to go about gun control that are none of those things. Having a gun around is way more likely to lead to the death of you or somebody you're close to than it is to protect you from some hypothetical fascists. If you want to defend yourself, then you're statistically better off defending yourself from yourself by not having a gun.
 
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dumpster harpy

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Who are you trying to convince?

It doesn't have to be arbitrary, racist, or ableist? What fantasy world are you living in?

For a smart person you sure are bad at questioning statistics and how they are generated. I feel genuinely bad that you believe such bullshit.

And "hypothetical" my ass, Nazis recently flyered my synagogue with Holocaust denial propaganda. They're out here. And as it so happens I recently lost the legal right to own firearms over a weed ticket and had to sell my guns to avoid getting put in a cage.

I am a Jewish trans woman, and I should have access to any weapons I choose, and so should every other person with a target painted on their back.
 

Barf

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Been hanging out on all kinds of forums for years.

Some how this topic always gets brought up.

I've given up on all the gun mumble jumble, the politics behind legislation, and arguing without ever reaching more than a sliver of common ground/understanding.

I would like to quote the brave and noble Lenny:

LENNY
Assault weapons have gotten a lot of bad press lately, but they're manufactured for a reason: to take out today's modern super animals, such as the flying squirrel, and the electric eel.

cartridgefamily-jpg.52589_Guns/gun violence - thoughts?_Politics & Anarchism_Squat the Planet_12:14 AM


We can't forget the insight of Krusty the Clown either:

KRUSTY
Hey, yutz! Guns aren't toys. They're for family protection, hunting dangerous or delicious animals, and keeping the King of England out of your face.
















I've never owned a firearm, my woman forbids it. Which is probably for the best.

I am of sound body and mind(mostly).

I never really gave much thought about random gun violence until I had my son.
This world is a scary fucking place and people drop dead all the time.

Much love to everyone here.
Be safe as you go on this road.

<3
Barf
 
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Has anyone on here been involved in one of these mass shootings? Curious. What r we to think it’s all fiction dramatized on the TelLIEvision. Crazy? .Entertainment only to propagate old prophecies. If u weren’t involved/affected and only see it in media how can we be so sure it happened? The nevending bunny hole ...stepping into the holigraphic universe . violence not necessary
 

blank

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Meaning what?
You said legalistic framework yada yada to prevent marginalized people from getting access to weapons that fascists already have, that is not a thing. We as a society deem certain weapons appropriate an inappropriate for everyone. Nobody is saying trans Jewish people shouldn't be able to own things that some other group should.

Edit; for everyone aside from those we deem not competent or responsible on an individual basis.
 

dumpster harpy

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That's not a thing? That's the whole fucking thing. That is the reality of America right now. We as a society deem...?

I'm at a loss for how little you understand what you're talking about. Do you understand how marginalization works? Do you understand that so many American fascists and their potential recruits are already kitted out for war? And who is we? It's like you think this is student government in an elementary school classroom...
 

blank

Pilgrim
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Marginalized people have the same rights to own the same firearms as anyone else. And we, you know, the ones who vote on people and pass laws and such. Your contention seems to be that they have access to something that other people do not. That's not a thing.
 

Dameon

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It doesn't have to be arbitrary, racist, or ableist? What fantasy world are you living in?

For a smart person you sure are bad at questioning statistics and how they are generated. I feel genuinely bad that you believe such bullshit.
I'm at a loss for how little you understand what you're talking about.
Cut out the personal attacks. If you can't put up a sound logical argument, such as, say, explaining the problem with how statistics relating to gun deaths are manipulated, then you're just insulting people, and that doesn't prove shit. All you've done so far is more or less tell everybody they're stupid and quote them sarcastically.
And "hypothetical" my ass, Nazis recently flyered my synagogue with Holocaust denial propaganda. They're out here.
So you need guns to protect yourself from the flyers of fascists?
 

SlankyLanky

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writeangle

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Sadly many companies have capitalized on what exactly a “gun” is in this country. Its just the lower reciever. There are millions upon millions of home manufactured guns out in the wild. Look up 80% ar-15.

Legislation isnt the solution to this problem, honestly i dont think there is a solution that will work. Even arming every person wont do the job. That guy in walmart hit 43 out of 45 rounds in under 90 seconds with self defenders present.
That's suspiciously accurate. Anybody that can hit moving targets while moving either did a bunch of drills and/or played a lot of airsoft
 

writeangle

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Never mind all the countries that have resolved this problem through legislation.

It's simple math. Illegal guns start out as legal guns. Decrease the amount of legal guns, and you decrease the amount of illegal guns. This isn't speculation, this is fact. The idea that if they're determined enough they can find a gun is irrelevant; we're not talking about criminal masterminds who will go to any lengths necessary and have infinite resources, we're talking about normal human beings who mostly wouldn't even know where to start if you told them to go buy an illegal gun tomorrow.

It's ridiculous at this point to pretend that severely limiting access to firearms won't have an effect on the amount of killers with access to firearms. We have a variety of countries that started out as gun-happy as us, implemented strong firearm restrictions, and then saw a significant decrease in firearm violence. The evidence is in. It's not theoretical. It works.

The only question at this point is "how many people's lives is your right to have a gun worth?" It's legitimate to think that it's okay for X amount of people to die a day so that you have the right to own your own personal murder weapon, in case you need to fight off the US army with a glock or whatever. It's not legitimate to ignore all the first world countries who have taken steps to limit access and have subsequently seen lower firearm violence rates.

And it's not just violent crime that would be affected; accidental gun injuries/deaths would drop to near zero. Successful suicide rates plummet after strong gun legislation. Even if you pretend that gun violence rates wouldn't drop at all after strong gun legislation, the other two categories make a large portion of gun deaths. Your right to have a gun has a very real cost in lives, no matter how you cut it. You have to decide exactly how much blood you're okay with having on your hands.
X = everybody
 

SaltyCrew

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The links below are for "violent crimes committed in the U.S.". They are summary reports from the Uniform Crime Reporting database. The first link is to the homepage listed by year, the next 3 links are for years 2005, 2010, and 2015. Also, Ive attached 2 PDF files of the same data from the same website database for older data (years 1995 and 2000) that were PDF only files, to give a total of a summarized 20 year trend. I encourage anyone interested to further look at the compiled data of this database other than the total violent crimes summaries I've linked. It breaks it down to who murdered/robbed/raped/assaulted who with what weapon, from fists to knives to poison to firearms. Example of data: in 2014 there were 119,583 total robberies reported using a firearm. Same year, 126,903 robberies reported using "strong arm" tactics. Same year, 151,957 aggravated assault charges involving a firearm, 126,457 using knives, 215,342 using "other weapons", and 179,850 using hands, fist, feet, etc.

My conclusion from this data is that violent crime in America has been decreasing in the last 20 years.

Also what I feel is worth mentioning, is 2 of the variables in these statistics.

1). Population of U.S. has been increasing since 1995.
2). Total number of firearms/knives/deadly weapons in the U.S. has been increasing since 1995.

Link to source

Year 2005 summary report

Year 2010 summary report

Year 2015 summary report
 

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Dameon

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The links below are for "violent crimes committed in the U.S.". They are summary reports from the Uniform Crime Reporting database.
Looking at crime rates is misleading. Nobody's claiming guns cause people to commit violent crimes, that would be ridiculous. The difference is in the deadliness of those crimes. Punching somebody is a violent crime, and so is shooting somebody, but it goes without saying that shooting somebody is far more likely to kill them. If you look at the deaths resulting from those violent crimes, they're far higher in the US.
 

SaltyCrew

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Looking at crime rates is misleading. Nobody's claiming guns cause people to commit violent crimes, that would be ridiculous. The difference is in the deadliness of those crimes. Punching somebody is a violent crime, and so is shooting somebody, but it goes without saying that shooting somebody is far more likely to kill them. If you look at the deaths resulting from those violent crimes, they're far higher in the US.
Yes I most definitely agree with that statement. My point of posting all that info was to show that violent people exist, firearms or not. I think the real question here that @Juan Derlust already stated in an earlier post, is what exactly is it with American culture that makes people commit these atrocities? Obviously violent crimes happen elsewhere, in the same and different manners, but why? If it was possible to remove firearms from the equation completely, violence would still exist. Murder would still exist. Legislation is not the answer. In fact, it holds pretty true that when people are told NOT to do something, they seem to want to do it more.

Here is an original quote from, myself.

"Utopia cannot be fabricated, only a dystopia."

What I mean by this, is you cannot force people to do something. It creates madness. Hence the current world we live in. People trying to control people. That's the constant, and the answer to @Juan Derlust original question.
 
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Juan Derlust

Juan Derlust

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Come on man seriously?
Careful with your gender pronouns @SlankyLanky - in an earlier post, @dumpster harpy self IDs as trans woman

Anyway, two days ago I drafted a response about how remarkably civil everyone was in this thread despite your admonition - I guess the mustard's off the hot dog

However, her post brings up generalizing one's own situation & how some folks wish to bend the world to their will instead of advancing a greater good. One analogy could be Oppressive drunk driving laws marginalize individuals who insist on operating a vehicle while intoxicated, instead of promoting public safety...

I'm with @dumpster harpy against Holocaust deniers and the 'resurgent' anti-Semitism/xenophobia indicating troubled times ahead (now), but as a quasi-white half-Jew middle-aged straight male, I probably got less skin in the game. Meaning, the bullseye on my back will likely be drawn by a random shooter (as opposed to specific targeting). Not to make light of folks feeling singled out by these bigoted shooter types, but this siege mentality seems to be the yin to their yang. We're all potential targets for random gun violence*.

So as the sun sets on these latest mass casualty shooting events, the political will for meaningful legislation dries up and the public refocuses on whatever else the media spotlights.

*even as I edit this the umpteenth time, I'm sure there's a concealed carry permit holder reading this, thinking to theirself 'Not ME...'
 
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SlankyLanky

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@Juan Derlust My use of the word man had zero to do with someone's gender identity.

I suppose I could of been more clear and said "please y'all remember to keep it civil and yes, I know I'm repeating this for the 2nd time in the same thread, but I would rather do that then have anybody get worked up over what was intended to be a civil discussion. The only reason I feel the need to comment further is because somebody brought up (privately) that this thread is getting to the point where at least one person is getting worked up." I thought just saying come on man seriously was good enough.
 

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