Guns/gun violence - thoughts? (1 Viewer)

nivoldoog

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Honestly, it is indeed a fact. But I could throw tons of stats at you . Most from places that are super unlikable and many people will argue still.

So. I challenge you to develop fand ind the lie. Also I got sharp spoons want some ice cream?

Question Sargent soanky... did I break a rule before calling you Sargent spanky?


Fact! I'm disappointed in my self to be still.screwiing with you. I .... ehh... kinda respect you. I'm sorry.
 
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Juan Derlust

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I don't think we can honestly call facts when the data is incomplete - statistically relevant over a significant time period. There may be correlation but as always that doesn't necessarily mean causation. Anyway everybody gets defensive regarding their own ideas and opinions. My purpose for opening this can of worms was to try and figure out what it is specifically about American (U.S.) culture that we lead in these events.

& @nivoldoog - I'm gonna throw my support behind you sharpening your fangs and toughening your hide for the battle you're facing regarding your other thread
 
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SlankyLanky

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Honestly, it is indeed a fact. But I could throw tons of stats at you . Most from places that are super unlikable and many people will argue still.

So. I challenge you to develop fand ind the lie. Also I got sharp spoons want some ice cream?

Question Sargent soanky... did I break a rule before calling you Sargent spanky?
It's not against site rules to claim facts and not be able to back them up, it just makes you seem full of shit.

The lie is they arnt facts, so uh there's that.

Nope you can call me sargent soanky or Sargent spanky, but keep on topic to the thread.

Also please don't edit yer posts endlessly again. Keep yer replies on topic or I will be more then happy to just ban you if that's the attention you want.
 
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Juan Derlust

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My observation is we've got a range of opinions AND nobody's wrong - meaning so off-point it's absurd. As informal surveys go, I think this site is a pretty good cross-section - at least folks I'm familiar with. Ordinary blue-collar and/or fringe types
 
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Juan Derlust

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C'mon Slank - you're 'the friendliest mod ', not the fact police

Let's not allow facts (or lack of) to get in the way of a nice civil discussion!
 
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Juan Derlust

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It's one thing to call Bullshit and another thing to counter with 'I can show dozens of statistics'
Let's just see one
 

roughdraft

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@nivoldoog im inclined to agree with what you stated as fact, i find it pretty sound logically.

i cant prove it, and even with statistics noone will be able to actually prove shit. this world is fucked up and statistics are no exception, people fuck em up all the time....and yes, i cannot prove that either

but for most people it's a case of "itd be a lot cooler if ya did" (cite statistics).
 

SlankyLanky

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Simply owning a gun does absolutely nothing to stop crime. Maybe if yer house had a giant red sign that said "yup gun here" or if before someone was going to rob you they asked "gee buckaroo are ya packing?" Then ok maybe sure, but that's not how it is. Owning a gun does not make the crime rates drop, it just doesn't work that way.

I am 100% open to this being a thread where y'all can discuss whatever the hell you want to about the topic, but if you wanna call it a fact then please be able to site at least one source.
 
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Juan Derlust

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Statistics are a data point - everyday individual life is more fluid

I'm not saying data is useless - however in a practical application sense, there are limitations

Ask any engineer

OK I gotta edit because statistics and data are used to develop policy - my friggin cousin teaches public policy at Cornell & if she read this she'd hand me my head on a platter
 
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Juan Derlust

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Every time (twice) I've been robbed at gunpoint, I didn't have a dime on me - and I thought I hope this numbskull isn't so frail as to blow me away from frustration or whatever the fuck is running through his mind this very moment. Beyond that, I've had guns in my face 2 other times: once, recovering equipment from a tweaker, the other time some drunken fool - however, I never felt the need to carry a gun - except hiking in the CO wilderness and some friendly cowboy advised me to carry a gun in case I encountered a bear. That was the first time I ever considered getting a gun

**Accidentally hit 'post reply', trying to compose - I'll have to edit later
 
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void gaze

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Gun control was passed in the 1970s because ppl like the black panthers were exercising their rights and I’m sure the govt will see that any new laws aren’t applied to white racists, why miss a good opportunity to demonize the ‘mentally ill’, the left, poc etc and prevent their engaging in self defense? Meanwhile the rw gun nuts who always said they needed arms in case the govt turned totalitarian are totally cool with concentration camps and rw politicians solutions are all about increased policing and surveillance, even armed volunteer units starting to sound VERY much like 1920-30s fascism...racism is way more a problem than guns inherently are or would be except for the staggering amount of guns racists have to terrorize the rest of us with. I really want to leave this country
 

BradKajukenbo

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Every time (twice) I've been robbed at gunpoint, I didn't have a dime on me - and I thought I hope this numbskull isn't so frail as to blow me away from frustration or whatever the fuck is running through his mind this very moment. Beyond that, I've had guns in my face 2 other times: once, recovering equipment from a tweaker, the other time some drunken fool - however, I never felt the need to carry a gun - except hiking in the CO wilderness and some friendly cowboy advised me to carry a gun in case I encountered a bear. That was the first time I ever considered getting a gun

**Accidentally hit 'post reply', trying to compose - I'll have to edit later
In self defense, we learn how to disarm a weapon such as a knife and or gun. Still even then the best advise is to give up your wallet or money because its not worth your life. About 3 years ago me and my son Brian were robbed at knife point in West Seattle. The guy got my wallet and was gone. My son didn't understand why I didn't try and disarm the guy. I had to explain to my son that it isn't worth it. I've never felt the need to carry a gun except when camping.

I think after these mass shooting, rather blast it hour by hour on the news, the country should come together and help the victims and their families. Because all the media coverage is all about taking about changing laws for a week or so. Or some politic tries to use it as a stepping stone to push a worthless agenda that only fills their pockets.
 
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Juan Derlust

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Regrettably, the one thing we can all count on following a tragedy like this is politicians of every stripe trying to make hay out of it
 

blank

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More reliable than that is firearm manufacturers using it to make their standard sales pitch of "buy it now before it's illegal". Seems like a bunch of problems intersecting, a culture that doesn't really value life, an economic system putting appropriate mental health services out of reach of many who need them, a pharma industry that exerts influence to cultivate and maintain a culture of prescriptions being considered an instant fix, people who are mentally ill having easy access to firearms etc.

Universal background checks have like 90% support in the population and still it can't be made law. I guess we Americans just aren't capable of self governing effectively enough to solve issues that nobody else has.

So my view is basically play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Next time you hear pops and some screaming duck I guess.
 

cozmic

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I almost think it's something environmental- Lead poisoning in paint and emmissions, chemicals in the food/air etc. Maybe the anomie that comes with the internet/social media and lack of real human contact kids seem to experience these days...

I mean, America's always been full of guns, literally since before our founding. We've been gun nuts forever and have had tons and tons in private hands as long as we've been a nation...

And we've always had "military" style weapons in their civilian form on the consumer market- It's capitalism 101.. Colt started selling AR-15s to the public in 1964! And we've had comblock AKs on and off since the 70's depending on sanctions. Before that it was M14 civilian models, M1 Garands, etc. So civilian versions of military guns have always been on the market for the public to buy, and the public has always bought them, but we didn't seem to have this sort of mass shooting deal until the last decade or so..

Just seems like the last 15 years or so something changed with the people, or maybe society and alienation from the internet. Maybe chemical too, since I didn't know a single person with a peanut allergy or celiac disease when I grew up in the 70s and 80s, but now it seems like those folks are everywhere... Maybe it's economic as well with the disintegration of the middle class, wage stagnation, and the death of the American dream.. I think young people see themselves as having to work twice as hard as their grandparents for half the benefit, and just don't know how to channel that frustration in ways that aren't destructive.

It just makes me so sad that these shooters didn't have anyone to be there for them before they snapped. Fucking tragic.
Social media and chemicals could be a part of the problem, but I genuinely think it's the society at a whole.

I know the U.S. has always been a divided nation, but now its hard to even turn on the news without pundits spewing their ideologies (and sometimes there's hatred). I hate Trump but he's right about there being a lot of "fake news" circling around out there. Open up Facebook and tell me for sure that the news your friends are sharing on their feed are written and reported by people with legitimate Journalism degrees. Those usually come with ethics and standards. It's getting harder to find a news source these days that just reports the news and doesn't tell me how to think.

I think there's a lot of areas that are contributing to this problem but the ignition of the fire is coming from broadcast/social media. Everyone has a voice now. People angry at the government, people angry at life in general, can just load up a web browser and find that people with brown skin are their problem, baby boomers are their problem, left-leaning politics are their problem, women are their problem, etc. Us against them. You have easy access to guns and guess what happens?

That's of course just my opinion.
 

Older Than Dirt

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Lead poisoning at least is not the answer- there has not been lead used in anything in a very very long time, and lead levels have never been lower in the US. as to lead in emissions, lead was totally eliminated from gas used in on-road vehicles in 1996, and had been decreasing greatly since the late '70s.

There is a whole theory in criminology about how the very high levels of lead during the '50s-'90s explain why violence increased every year in the US from the early '60s until 1992.

Violent crime has decreased, by a lot, every year since then. Overall rates of violence in the US are at historic lows.

Mass shootings, though, are way up. Mass shootings mostly involve young white middle-class heterosexual males, and strikingly often involve far-right nutbarness, white-supremacist insanity, and "incel" misogyny, and almost always involve semi-automatic assault rifles, sometimes modified to allow full-auto fire.

It turns out that sexually frustrated young Fascists with powerful weapons is a bad combination. i don't think we will run out of alienated young men any time soon, so maybe it needs to be harder, or impossible, to buy a semi-automatic assault rifle?
 

Glass Roads

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Is the conversation really as simple as "Does owing a gun prevent crime?" though? I've heard statistics suggesting that owning a gun causes more harm than good (stolen, accidents, misuse, etc.), but it's not hard to conceptualize how a gun could prevent a crime in a particular situation when self defense or the threat of self defense is necessary (Those situations do carry a lot of variables though).

Also, the police and military have guns. I'm not crazy about the idea of anybody being able to have an assault rifle, but I'm not crazy about the idea of only the government having them either. Call me paranoid. Yes I know that the government vastly outguns citizens already, but I question the logic of yielding more power to them.
 

Older Than Dirt

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According to my old back-up singer, a Marine vet: "A Marine rifle-squad can reduce a 4 story Brooklyn tenement building to rubble in less that half an hour employing only organic capabilities" ["organic capabilities" meaning the gear they normally and always carry.]

You will not have a ghost of a chance when "they" come for you.

The idea that armed civilians are going to hold off "the government"' is even less sensible on the left than when far-right militias say that's why they need so many guns.

As we have seen, when armed white men with far-right grievances seize Federal land, nothing much happens. Anyone who imagines leftists with guns, especially non-white leftists, will get the same kid-glove treatment needs to study up on history; check out Philly MOVE and the Weather Underground for starters.

Violent resistance and armed revolution are very romantic to be sure, and as a young man i deeply resented being born a few years to late to be a Weatherman. But it remains a fact that "You can't blow up a social relationship".

Very very few Americans actually need a firearm for self-defense. No American in fact needs an assault rifle to defend themself.

There simply aren't any animal or criminal threats that need that kind of firepower, and if it is "The Man", your assault rifle ain't nearly enough. The thing is, if by a miracle you hold off that first rifle-squad, just like in the movies, they'll just send another one, probably with air support this time.


 

Glass Roads

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I'm from North Idaho, about half an hour from Ruby Ridge, so I definitely do not hold any delusions of fighting off the government.

But I do think police, military, and corporate abuse could possibly be a little more rampant if the threat of person to person resistance or the occasional person snapping wasn't a thing. I'm also worrying about a snowball effect. Like barely anyone needs a gun, so why not just let the government take those in the name of safety? If they were to ban assault rifles, 2 deaths would start feeling like 22 deaths in a generation or two, and people would logically be re-evaluation whether guns are worth it (like we are now).

The relationships between the local police and citizens in countries where neither carry guns around seems fairly good. Historically though, nations where the police and military are the only ones armed are abusive awful situations. I find it to be an understandable concern that gun control could be lead us in that direction. Something to think about.
Not saying I do or don't support it though.
 

Older Than Dirt

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Guns in America have three main dimensions:

1) Hunting and rural home-defense: No one uses an assault rifle for hunting anything; it wouldn't be legal to use one for most game in most states. No one uses an assault rifle for varmint purposes. No sane person will use a high-powered rifle of any kind for home defense unless they have no children, pets, or neighbors within a mile to kill with missed shots, ricochets or shots that go through your kid's head after going through the bad guy and three walls.

See #3 below for what most gun-advocates really mean when they say "home defense" and why they think they need an assault rifle for this.

2) Sport/recreation and target shooting: This is what assault rifles are mostly actually used for. There is no doubt that it is really fun to send an enormous amount of lead down-range in a very short time. It is also very expensive even if you reload, requires hearing protection, and did someone mention lead is bad for you? Assault rifles are not used for actual target shooting; no one serious about target shooing uses anything over a .22. A pellet gun is harder to hit with, way cheaper to shoot, and you don't need hearing protection.

3) Political cosplay by the far-right, and terror of black and brown people: It used to be that they were going to fight the Russian Commies back in the Cold War days of The Minutemen. Then Clinton, and then Obama were going to take the guns, so they needed more guns to fight the US government.

But the real treason they need those guns is that black and brown people are going to rise up in anti-white purges and come and kill them and their families, unless they have the military hardware needed to defend themselves.

Obviously this is a ludicrous and deeply racist fantasy. It is also curious that so many so worried about this never think of the fact that physical fitness might be even more advantageous in this hypothetical race-war than an assault rifle.

#3 is what everything about anti-"gun control" politics is about, and the firearms industry and the firearms-hysteria industry (the NRA et al) work to stoke those fears, and the macho fantasies of being the lone Rambo in your neighborhood whose family is the only one who survives, because you had your assault rifle.

They occasionally pay lip-service to #1 and #2, but #3 is where the action (and the money, lots and lots and lots of it) is.
 

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